My Problem with What If...?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
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Marvel's What If is a tricky thing. It is doing a lot of things right but at the same time, I'm not quite on board. Here's why.
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For episode 4, I don't see why the relationship between Strange and Christine not being developed in Doctor Strange is problem when, 1. this is a different universe and 2. the episode itself does an alright job at making their relationship believable. Secondly, the title of the episode makes very clear that Strange's hands breaking was swapped out for Christine being killed, the implication of Christine's death being irreversible is that Strange's hands breaking in the main universe would also be irreversible, different universes, different stories, different fixed points in time.
@Realist Demon u summed it up perfectly!!
I agree entirely.
"this is alternative universe" is Rly dump reason,its not what if characters were diffrent,its what if it was diffrent situation, characters are same but story is diffrent
@@marijamarcelic3149 but different situations breed different characters...
I wholeheartedly agree! Can’t believe I disagree with the video haha
Reinventing the Christine relationship is great imo, I don’t think every episode should only revolve around references to the movies alone. I appreciate that episode 4 tried something relatively new with its structure. Also in THIS universe, Christine needed to die for Strange to face Dormammu. Different universe, different rules I guess.
yeah that's what I think if it's a different universe then the absolute points can be different.
Also the "what if" thesis of the episode is simplified; it's clear that part of the what if is christine and strange being closer, since main mcu strange didn't go to a party with christine.
@@End336 The absolute point seems to simply be something that if changed would cause a paradox. Main timeline strange would have an absolute point in time where he broke his hands. If he goes back and changes that, he would never been a wizard to have went back in the first place.
And even through it all, Strange was still "No, don't punish the universe"
@@gabemerritt3139 That does seem to be the implication but I also really like the idea of the snap being an absolute point which is why there was only one way to win. Otherwise it kind of seems like a flaw that even if the Avengers successfully removed the gauntlet, that they'd all still lose to a worse extent.
The Ancient one's point about Christine being an absolute point is only supposed to be on that singular what if universe, excluding others. Also, i think that the “what if” of the strange episode is actually like, “what if strange was more in love with Christine instead of treating her more as a friend”, thus making it so Christine goes with strange on the ride that was supposed to destroy strange's hands.
Also these absolute points in time are a real time travel thing. Legends of Tomorrow explored that in the first couple seasons.
It might not specifically be her dying, but the car crash where Strange loses something is generally an absolute point or concept. In this specific universe, the change, to me at least, is more that their relationship worked. This way, the loss still occurs, but it's a different type of loss. And by trying to avoid the loss, Strange loses himself to his arrogance. That's how I interpreted it, and honestly it's my favorite What If episode of the bunch (so far).
I think fixed point are more referring point that time travel cannot change, stuff that would cause a paradox. Because if he saved Christine then he would not learn magic in order go back in time
Exactly. The fixed point is that Strange has to lose something to motivate him to become a sorcerer, and in a universe where he's found true love, the only thing that would push him that far is losing her. Even if his hands got messed up and he couldn't be a surgeon, he'd still be happy with Christine in this universe.
@@bigwave1713 Exactly. Paradoxes.
You have to admit though: Hearing The Watcher say in each episode, "I can stop him, I can make him change his mind. But I must not interfere." was pretty poetic, as it basically shows that he's doing what he's doing.
Episode 8: naaaaaaaaah
@@MYSTmke 😂😂😂
There is nothing poetic about that, I m glad your not a poet, ewww you would have ruined the world
@@thomasrockbottom2907 ok dude
@@thomasrockbottom2907 oooooookay then
Two different universes- in one, what is most important to Strange is Christine & love. In another, it's his ability to do surgery- his hands. For him to become Dr Strange, there has to be an inciting event - he has to have something horrible happen that causes him to stop his normal life and seek. Seek so far, that he ends up at the Ancient One's door.
He can't remove that event because if he did, he would have had no reason to leave his normal life, and would never have learned magic.
Exactly. The actual what-if (ie nexus event) of this episode is that Christine says yes to Strange’s invite. It may or may not be that they are closer in this timeline but in the movie Strange asks her to come with and she declines saying that she never liked going to those awards because they were all about him. In this universe, she says yes, and the writers take it from there. Also the characterization although marketed via a romance story was honestly less about Strange’s love for Christine and more about the way he obsessively and sometimes recklessly pursues his goals in a way that makes him the greatest at what he does, whether it’s surgery or magic. Yes the romance was a key point in the story yet was underdeveloped in the movie (not that that matters given it’s an alternate timeline), but regardless, whether it’s his love life or the tools that made his career, Strange needs to lose them in order to be motivated enough to become the Sorcerer Supreme. And if he tries to change that origin-spawning event, then it’s creates a paradox that breaks reality, which makes sense with MCU’s time travel/branch theory rules. That’s why the Avengers time travelled back to the past in order to snap everyone back in the present, rather than time traveling to the past to undue the original Snap.
Dr. Strange's What if is if Dr. Strange valued his relationship with Christine more than his career. Thats why he cannot save Christine because in that timeline he would not have the motivation to learn magic if he lost his hands there. Cause he values Christine more. Even the movie mocked him finding purpose with his relationship with Christine before he goes to learn magic.
Yeah it's like getting the Soul Stone. He's got to lose what he values most.
Exactly, if this Universe Strange loses his hands, he would have taken Christine's help which was shown in the movie and moved on.
I cannot deny the messiness of the rules, but the way I saw it that the Ancient one said that Christine needed to die in THAT universe for strange to start his journey to defeat Dormammu, because in that universe Christine and Steven were a thing. But in OUR timeline Strange needed to lose the use of his hands to begin the journey to defeat Dormammu. So different absolute points for each timeline I guess? That would at least kind of make sense in this whole thing...
That’s exactly it. Absolute Points in the Timeline doesn’t negate The multiverse branch timeline rules at all. Time travel through science is simple branching, entering a new but similar reality in a specific point in time. Time travel through magic allows you to go back to a point in time without the by-product of creating a “time clone” of yourself, but you simply cannot undo the event that granted you the power to time travel, because the timeline will correct itself to resolve that paradox, causing that event to happen no matter what.
I understood that he needs to lose what is more important to him, in that universe is his love, in ours is his career
The line 'not to nitpick' feels more sarcastic than ever in this episode.
The trouble with gimmicks is that sometimes there's not a place to use them but you have to force them in somewhere.
The pacing of the show is my biggest issue. Every episode would benefit immensely with an extra 10-15 mins or so.
That seems to be an issue in all the MCU Disney plus shows. Loki did best with pacing, but they all would still benefit from a few more minutes of screen time.
I heard some episodes were suppose to be 45 minutes long but due to the pandemic they weren’t (why we lost a whole episode too)
Yes even a tiny bit more room would help, like cut the intro a bit and do 40-45 minute episodes would be great
@@rulthlessrudy yep they were going to be roughly 15-20 mins longer each and have the gamora episode.
I remember quite well Christine's role and importance to Strange in the movie. I remember the watch she gave Strange, which he was not willing to give up despite being beaten up by some thugs. It was the last thing he didn't trade for money. I remember Strange wanting to email Christine to apologize but didn't know what to say. Plus, I found the little moment they had on the car in this what-if as quite a lovely one. Strange lost Christine on a date night; it's important to note that Steven's last memory of Christine was quite a nice one. It's no wonder that he can't stop imagining what could have been.
true. The actual what-if (ie nexus event) of this episode is that Christine says yes to Strange’s invite. It may or may not be that they are closer in this timeline but in the movie Strange asks her to come with and she declines saying that she never liked going to those awards because they were all about him. In this universe, she says yes, and the writers take it from there.
Having only seen Dr Strange once, I forgot who Christine was. But that episode made it clear what their relationship was in this specific universe and helped me remember who Christine was.
Though it’s mainly because I just remembered her as Rachel McAddams
I feel like most people forget what happened in Dr. Strange and simply remember that he just became a sorcerer. Forgetting the heart of his character only remembering his flanderizing elements from Infinity War
It's probably not showed clearly in the movie but I remember the writer or the director saying that because of not wanting the Doctor Strange movie to feel too much like Iron-Man, they made Christine and Stephen as the former lovers in the movie. So Stephen still does have feelings for her.
This is a Doctor Strange who allowed himself to love Christine as fully as he was capable of and not prioritize himself above her, unlike our Doc Strange. Our Doc Strange can do it, but he chooses not to.
The zombie episode tone was so weird. Joking while killing your friends then the next scene were supposed to feel sad about Hope having a scratch?
I think that’s a problem with the MCU as a whole they ruin emotional moments with cheap jokes, like how they wanted us to feel sad about Thor’s downward spiral in “Endgame” but later on they constantly make jokes about it.
Yeah, honestly, that episode went to dark places but never fully committed to it. Vision literally dismembered T'challa and fed his leg to Wanda, while he was still alive. That's effed up, and the episode just kinda glides right past that point.
@@thomasraines1396 ya see that complaint a lot, but What If Zombies has it far, FAR worse than *any* of the movies.
also, everyone turned into a zombie in a matter of seconds, but the moment the plot needs it, it takes 100x longer for Hope to turn into a zombie.
@@thomasraines1396
They didn't want you to feel sad about it. At all.
I just realised why I feel so weird about this video: It is the first time that I disagree with one of your videos, like EVER!
My mind just always jumps to: Nando's gonna make some valid points and I'll love it regardless. And it always happens!!
But not this time, there's a first for everything, and mine came after 4 years of watching this channel.
Same here, It feels like he is trying too hard to find a flaw that is not there.
Yeah I have that feeling too. I'm usually like. He never misses. But this one he definitely does miss the mark on it. Though I'll give him the zombie episode even though I don't really have a problem with it.
Tony Stark was important to Obidiah who was bankrolling the ten rings who Killmonger infiltrated
I think the beauty of what if is the variety, just like with the mcu people are gonna attach themselves more to different episodes, I think there's something for most people, but I understand why some may not like the series as a whole, it could definitely use a longer runtime, and I would like it better if they didn't spend so much time on things that already happened in the movies.
Completely Agree, even when I disagree with Nando’s points, I can always understand where he’s coming from.
The entirety of the video just felt like a long nitpick at really minuscule details, rather than the well scripted and researched points he usually makes in his videos. The whole time I was waiting for the video to click but afterwards I realised why this felt off.
Whelp. For starters, in the Doctor Strange “What If...?” episode, Doctor Strange is not the same version from the movie. In the film, Dr. Strange sought to fix his hands; Christine was not with him in the car accident; they were not dating. In the universe of the “What If...?”, Strange and Christine were dating; she was in the car, died, and was partly, if not THE reason Strange found magic. So, Nando’s understanding of that particular episode and thus his nitpick are flawed. The Watcher is VERY clear at the outset; the universe in the episode is not the same as in the movie.
The complaint here that Nando v Movies is making isn't that he can't follow the addition of this new relationship, it's that the episode is about the loss of this relationship and we've never seen it. We have no point of reference about them being in love. Did they date for years? Did they just fall in love last week? Was this going to be the dinner he proposes at? Did they get divorced? It's a new thing, different from the movies, so get us invested in it if you are going to have us wallow in the mud with Strange for half an hour.
@@CaptainGreenHawk It's a "tight" thirty-minute show, and it's not a giant leap to believe in this universe that Strange and Christine are in a meaningful relationship simply because the show tells us.
Despite the episode occurring in an alternate reality, I will point out that the first twenty minutes in the film imply a "could have been" relationship between the two. In particular, after Strange's crash, it's Christine at his bedside and by his side until Strange pushes her away.
Could the relationship be more clear? Sure. But, Marvel movies are not rocket science. Almost every movie in the franchise has a "love interest," and the "What If...?" plays with the audience's assumption Strange and Christine are no different.
I get the idea is to nitpick, but this was a weak one, IMO.
@@verse2304 It's not a leap at all. It's a short walk.
The actual what-if (ie nexus event) of this episode is that Christine says yes to Strange’s invite. It may or may not be that they are closer in this timeline but in the movie Strange asks her to come with and she declines saying that she never liked going to those awards because they were all about him. In this universe, she says yes, and the writers take it from there. Also the characterization although marketed via a romance story was less about Strange’s love for Christine and more about the way he obsessively and sometimes recklessly pursues his goals in a way that makes him the greatest at what he does, whether it’s surgery or magic. Yes the romance was a key point in the story yet was underdeveloped in the movie (not that that matters given it’s an alternate timeline so you have to go in with a more open mind), but regardless, whether it’s his love life or the tools that made his career, Strange needs to lose them in order to be motivated enough to become the Sorcerer Supreme. And if he tries to change that origin-spawning event, then it’s creates a paradox that breaks reality, which makes sense with MCU’s time travel/branch theory rules.
The implication of the episode, to me, seemed to be that "In order to become Sorcerer Supreme, Strange must lose something he loves and turn to magic to try and obtain it again." When that "something" is motor function, magic can help, and in our universe, it does. But when it's death, something that can't be fixed by magic, Strange instead tries to undo the event - causing the episode.
The thing I like about episode 4 is how it doesn’t have a varying tone, it’s just sad and it knows it, and that’s a nice new pace for the mcu, bc sometimes things are just sad, not just the ending but everything at the beginning and the end, life can be sad and that has consequences which would scale with something like the power of a sorcerer
Not to nitpick, but when you said "did dormammu win in this timeline", the point where the timelines split was after the fight with dormammu so that's impossible.
Yeah I was like “what that was covered in the ep”
It was way more frustrating to me bc Nando SHOWED the clip of the fight in what if while talking like it is a nitpick
Okay so here's my understanding of that universe. The Ancient One says that she "split Doctor Strange's timeline in two". She doesn't just split Strange into two Stranges. She creates another timeline. So there is one timeline where Strange defeats Dormammu and one where he doesn't. The split appears to happen at Christine's death, since that's when the Ancient One is alive to do it. So there is a separate timeline in that universe where everything goes normally but another where Strange goes through everything, goes back in time, and then goes to Cagliostro's library. So as far as I can tell, there exists a timeline where Strange reverses time to immediately after the car crash and goes to the library but does not fight Dormammu. The Ancient One's flashback conversation with Strange shows Timeline 2 Strange not going back in time. So it isn't a paradox where both exist at the same time and one is fighting Dormammu while the other is reading. Timeline 1 has the Dormammu fight and Timeline 2 has Strange fight Dormammu but undo it so he can go to the library instead of going through the original events again. Hence no Dormammu fight in the rewound timeline
Also Duck Hunt, the clip is used was of the Watcher explaining what happened before this Strange rewound time. So it's the original timeline but not the altered one. Maybe.
And the new timeline makes new universe thing is a rule I'm bringing over from Loki. I am sure it could be interpreted as The Ancient One splitting Strange into two people but because she says "timelines" I read that as a Nexus Event that creates another universe. Either of us may be wrong but this all goes to show that this is way too confusing of a concept to just throw out there and expect everyone to be on board.
Episode 4 takes place in an alternate universe where Christine was the love of Christine’s life, so I was fine with it
I assume that that's a typo and that you meant "Steven's life," but yes.
That's not his nitpick. His nitpick is that the episode is about this love Strange has for Christine, and we aren't invested in it because it's new and we don't see it. If it was already in the movies and we were already invested in it, then that would be fine. But the whole show is Strange messed up because the relationship is over and we don't know anything about it.
@@CaptainGreenHawk because it's so short I don't need to be invested in their relationship. I just need to believe that strange is invested and I think they pulled that off pretty well.
@@mrmacmiggles I enjoyed the episode. But it could be better.
@@CaptainGreenHawk Oh I totally agree! None of these episodes are perfect. Some of them are far from it.
When the ancient one explained time travel was about the fricking Infinity stones not about the time travel. She was explaining that The Infinity stones mantain the reality from collapsing. Is not a time travel rule
Another way to look at it is taking the infinity stones without putting them back destroys future absolute points causing them to break down like the Evil Strange's reality does.
But the infinity stones don't exist in the mcu anymore, and it seems just fine.
@@wifparanoid because all 6 infinity stones are needed for balance. no infinity stones, no imbalance in their respective elements
This universe is a universe where Strange defeats Dormammu motivated by Christine's death, so it has to happen.
That’s exactly it. Absolute Points in the Timeline doesn’t negate The multiverse branch timeline rules at all. Time travel through science is simple branching, entering a new but similar reality in a specific point in time. Time travel through magic allows you to go back to a point in time without the by-product of creating a “time clone” of yourself, but you simply cannot undo the event that granted you the power to time travel, because the timeline will correct itself to resolve that paradox, causing that event to happen no matter what.
It baffles me how a movie channel could miss such a simple thing as Christine being swapped for Strange's broken hands. The time travel mess is one thing, and i agree it messes with the rules (even tough i really don't care) ,but the title itself says Christine dies instead of Strange loosing his hands. It feels really simple.
but why is christine the only thing in his entire life that he cares about when thats not the character he was established as?
@@andyrobin7196 This is an alternate universe Dr Strange where he loves Christine more than his work. The whole point is that his character is (slightly) different.
Whats not to get its a world where he was in love
So, I could be TOTALLY wrong, but it seems like there is a difference between Different timelines and different Universes. So in an alternate universe, you could create multiple timelines, but that SPECIFIC universe may have fixed points in times.
Between this show and Loki, it certainly SEEMS like we’re treating “timelines” and “universes” interchangeably.
@@ThePonderer wasn't that the point in endgame and loki? The rule in endgame was that changing your past doesn't change your future, it just creates a new timeliness, hence why we got loki in the first place. And loki seems to have treated that similar, where a new timeline equals a new reality. And this episode doesn't really change that
So you can split universes but when the TVA was around they would have stopped it. And in the one timeline he went back way into the past and did his thing for a couple hundred years well before dormamu shows up.
Not to *nitpick* like... something.... I can't remember what... but anyway, why aren't people talking more about the Watcher's development throughout this series?
In the *first* episode, outside of the opening & ending, its just his voice over.
In the *next* two episodes, he's more visible but still distant really only appearing in the sky. With the only real thing of note being, him following T'challa's adventures in space even tough in the comics, the Watcher is tasked with only observing Earth.
In episode *four* (aka the big one), he fully reveals himself (which is also probably why a lot of people like that episode is for that scene) BUT even before that, the Watcher is seen multiple times near Strange. Possibly showing that he's developing a closer connection to the people he's watching & his speech not only as a... lesson(?) to Evil Strange but also as a reminder to himself as what his purpose is.
Then in the *next* episode the Watcher purposefully chooses to watch a reality where everything goes wrong, not only for the heroes but the entire universe to try & further desensitize himself from 'bad endings'.
However in episode *six* this is clearly cracking. As whenever the Watcher is seen, he's clearly frowning & his platitude at the, rather abrupt, end of the episode is him being more hopeful.
The Watcher is the most interesting part of the show. I had the same issues with the Strange-episode as Nando had until that amazing scene where he interacted for the first time. I'm interested in what the Watcher is gonna do. I feel like they are setting him up to intervene at some point.
@@Sandra-rc5uc Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssss, because that's basically his character in the comics. He watches until he doesn't.
@Yung Murk Taking your question at face value, they cast a Black voice actor for the role, and in the MCU, you never know who might end up in live action *cough*paulbettany*cough* Might as well set themselves up to succeed.
@@storyscholar I'm excited about that! Haven't read much with the Watcher. Only that event - Original Sin - where he gets killed. He has an interesting role in the Marvel Universe though and I'd like to see more.
@Yung Murk Jeffrey Wright voices him. He's doing a great job. Especially that scene with Strange was amazing. So, why not have the character reflect the actor in this case? You could also have him cross-over into the MCU which would be cool. I literally haven't seen anybody who has complained about this change.
A lot of the Episode 4 nitpicks just seem to be about not understanding stuff most of the audience understood quite easily lol
Exactly!!!
For real, it's not that complicated. It's a different yet similar universe from the one we know. Their relationship does not really exist in the original universe, but it does exist in this one.
It's not that he doesn't get that, it's he doesn't *feel* it. We are given around three lines of dialog before she dies. We aren't invested in this relationship.
@@CaptainGreenHawk for me it comes across that he CLEARLY doesn't get it. The time travel is not the most neat out there - but it is not as messy as he portrays it. He completely misses the point about Christine being Dr. Strange's most important thing in that universe - and no, it doesn't depend on the movie Dr. Strange or the chemistry or character development of the pair's relationship. Even if you never saw the movie at all, the plot of this What If? would be very clear.
Edit: He also mentions all this being just for a Dr. Strange Vs. Dr. Strange fight. And... no. Just no. Very few people (I don't know of any) loved that part as their favourite or thought the fight was the highlight of the episode.
All in all, I agree with your point of not feeling it in the sense that he is not feeling the ENTIRE series. That's fine. To each their own. Thus, I shall also describe how I feel. I feel like Nando has missed the point of the What If? series altogether. I also think he is stuck at trying to figure out time travel (it's not even that hard to get, really) amidst the whole 'this has been done a million times before' attitude due to him watching movies for a living. So it makes sense that it would rub him the wrong way. But in this case, for me it comes across as a disconnect to the experiences of an ordinary viewer.
@@bowdennthani732 It's not that it's unclear. The narrator explains it. It's that the narrator explains it.
The real change in ep 4 was Strange loving Christine more than his work.
Wish they had stated that in the text >_>
@@morganszymanski9006 if you have seen the movie youd understand the diference
Different dimensions have different rules... also different histories (such as him an Christine being madly in love )... "what if" never followed the rules or history set by the "canon" series(comics or movies) .
The universes explored in What If...? aren't different dimensions, they're different timelines. Each universe has to follow the same rules in regards to how physics, magic, and other fundamental aspects function, but they differ in how events unfold due to a single individual making a different decision at a certain point which butterfly effects into increasingly different events transpiring in said timeline. Different dimensions refer to things like the Dark Dimension where time itself doesn't exist. While characters might lead wildly different lives in different universes, certain things like "How does time travel work?" and "What do the infinity stones do?" should remain consistent. The whole concept of a fixed point in time doesn't gel with what we know about time travel.
In Endgame we learn that traveling to the past and changing any little thing will just create a new universe and leave the one you originally came from completely unchanged. We also learn that removing an infinity stone from a universe indefinitely will cause it to... fall apart or something? In Loki we learn that alternate timelines form naturally even without time traveler interference due to nexus events. Basically, the multiverse is infinite, and anything is possible so long as specific rules are followed. (You can't have a universe where gravity is inversed for instance.) Christine dying can't be an inevitability because we know that there's a universe where she lives. Doctor Strange should be able to travel back in time to save her. He would just create a new timeline in doing so.
@@mirrorzone5224
The point of the other commenter is that the What If? comic books did not have to follow any rules of the Marvel universe. So for example, the Dormammu event wouldn’t matter.
I don’t know if Feige said that these episodes are canon, as being in the MCU going forward, or if they are meant to be viewed like the comics were.
Do you know? Did Feige speak about it?
@@CorbCorbin yes Kevin confirmed they are canon..
@@dangelo1921
Cool, thanks.
For me episode 4 was about what if Doctor Strange valued someone over himself, in his movie it’s clear he only really cares about himself so it makes sense he would be motivated to learn the mystic arts to fix himself, but in this universe he cares most about Christine so he has to lose her to be motivated to become sorcerer supreme.
I think I disagree hard with the Dr Strange episode. Despite some timeline wonkiness, I found it to be BY FAR the most emotional and enjoyable of any of these episodes. And I’m pretty sure the actual change of this universe is that Strange gets closer to Christine, which is what causes her to ride in the car with him, which causes her death.
It's actually incredible how hard you missed the point on episode 4
You're a hammer looking for nails, pun not intended
It's like professional nerds have some kind of mental block that prevents them from understanding the incredibly well-worn concept of alternate timelines
I definitely agree, i thought the episode was quite simple to understand. To each their own i guess.
In the MCU, you can go back in time but that doesn't change your current present. So, if Strange did end up saving Christine, there would still be a casket, etc.
You can't use Loki as an example because What if...? is the "aftermath" of what happens on that show.
Christine's death being a fixed point in time is a universe specific thing. It needed to happen so that Strange could become Sorcerer Supreme and stop Dormammu.
The thing about multiverse is that things that may have mattered less if at all in our canon could've been very important in another universe ie. Christine's and Strange's relationship.
Thank you, Byakuya Togami
If he went back in time using the system we say in Endgame, he could save Christine, and live with her, and there would be the old timeline without either of them. I think that would work fine for Dr. Strange.
He can’t use the stone on Christine because her death was a major factor in what led to him being in control of the time stone itself. If she doesn’t die, this version of Strange doesn’t become keeper of the time stone, thus he couldn’t use it to go back in time to undo her death, thus creates a paradox. On the other hand, the time stone can undo the death of Vision because 1) it was an immediate and localized use of time travel almost like a Quick Rewind button rather than a Reverse Fast-Forward, and 2) the ability to cause (or uncause) Vision’s death was not dependent on Vision dying first.
@@mon_nobi exactly
@AnimeAllDay Ikr? Why do people make rules for one thing but disregard another.
I feel you’re not separating the doctor strange movie and episode 4 from one another. Episode 4 is a different timeline completely where he and Christine are dating or romantic where their relationship is important where he needs her to die so he can defeat dormamu. If you separated it in your head then I’m sure it wouldn’t be such a big deal.
Nando saying "no" to the Dr. Strange episode is like saying "no" in an improv.
Look, either you're on board with the insanity, or you're not.
Facts
Casting Rachel McAdams as Christine is also meta shorthand for her being a complicated love interest, both in the Dr. Strange movie and in this episode of What If. She's type-cast in these roles, and while it wasn't shown in Dr. Strange, for many viewers it probably wasn't necessary - you see Rachel McAdams and Benedict Cumberbatch as main characters, coworkers, and former lovers - you fill in the rest with one of her other movies. She's also selling you that with her eyes in the scenes in his apartment after his hands are destroyed, or in the hospital storage room. She cares, she loves him, they are both working together still because they can't bear to be apart, but they also can't be together for an unspecified reason - but Strange's ego is part of it. The script is irrelevant, the casting alone wrote the backstory into Dr. Strange - and this What if episode just explores that subtext.
Yes it's really cool how context and fan interaction play such a big role in the canon of these movies, where minor characters have hardly any screentime or development.
4:55 that wasn't two timelines, still just one, but Dr. Strange himself was split and one of them went back in time the other one did not.
So still one timeline, just two stranges
He says "within the same universe." He's just wording it differently. But she did make two Dr. Stranges, and she did it with time magic.
What I really like about “What If…?” is that every episode is so vastly different. Even if someone doesn’t like every episode of the show, there’s usually ONE that they actually do really like, so it caters to various preferences
Most of the evil Dr. Strange timeline happens after he defeats Dormammu, they show it all at the beginning.
plus I think the evil doctor strange would be too powerful to even worry about dormammu
Yeah this is the first one I'm gonna have to disagree with you on Nando. I feel like you weren't paying attention at all when watching episode 4 because a lot of your problems with it just seem like you didn't understand the story that was pretty clear in understanding. Firstly the ancient one explained that you can't change a nexus point without destroying the entire timeline. He was creating a paradox which was what was causing the collapse of the universe. That's different from an alternate timeline because her death is why he got the power to become doctor strange. If she hadn't died because he used his powers to save her he never would've got the powers to save her and then she wouldn't have died and so on and so forth. The thing the ancient one did by seperating them into two timelines doesn't destroy the other timeline. The reason in endgame that the ancient one told hulk he had to bring the stones back was so it would stop a split in the timeline that would doom their timeline without the stones, basically breaking it.
the entire universe dies if Christine survives? why? thats such an arbitrary dumb rule they just made up to force in contrived conflict.
@@andyrobin7196 Absolute and Fixed points in time are a staple in almost every story with time travel involved in it. The universe didn't collapse because Christine survived - it collapsed because a fixed point in time was broken. Christine dying was What If? Episode 4's version of Strange's hands being ruined; to undo the inciting incident where Strange eventually became a sorcerer would create a disastrous paradox. It's simple if you think about it.
@@arias3295 I'm a year late but to add: if Christine didn't die Strange would never have become Sorcerer Supreme and defeated Dormammu, meaning that the universe would've been destroyed. However, the universe is clearly not destroyed. This results in a paradox because both these things can't be true at the same time.
In Episode 4, the Watcher states that Strange and Christine had a way better relationship than in the MCU. And Christine's death was an absolute point in that universe, not the MCU. And also in that universe, Doctor Strange goes to the Cagliostro place after defeating Dormammu
In regards to the comedy in episode 5, they’ve only known each other about 2.5 weeks. They’re not best friends.
Not to nitpick, not unlike your podcast Mostly Nitpicking, but in the Evil timeline, Dormammu WAS defeated, that’s clearly shown at the beginning. Both timelines take place after the events of Doctor Strange 2017.
Honestly the show imo has gotten better lately, it's gotten more dark and is doing things 3 years ago I wouldn't think an animated marvel show would do.
Tony definitely died in the one where Strange destroyed his universe. Also the first one makes changes far enough back that they could butterfly out majorly, Howard Stark's life goes down a slightly different path and ends up with a different kid. It's nearly 6/6 Tony deaths
He probably died in the second one too considering Ego had found Peter and can proceed with assimilating the galaxy
@@gregorymelissinos337 In the finale you can see the Guardians fighting Ego so it's possible that that universe survives
Eh normally I agree but not this time
I'm really loving these series and I dont really see the problems you're describing
The Dr. Strange episode is basically a retread of the "Dark Willow" arc in Buffy. Girlfriend dies, super powerful Witch goes on a rampage absorbing the magical energies of others.
This series plays more as kids playing with action figures and having fun little twists on the existing films rather than new situations where we learn new things about the characters or see them in a completely new light. (Save for a few moments but those are the exception at this point and not the rule)
That's definitely true. Personally, the fact that the series isn't in the main MCU or progress "canon" character arcs makes me like it a bit less than the other shows.
Well, it doesn't even take place in the same universe as the mainstream MCU characters so... it SHOULDN'T make us learn new things about the characters or see them in a completely new light. That's the point of it being a DIFFERENT UNIVERSE. It's not the same character. At all.
I mean the show is basically fan fiction the series, I don't think it needs to do everything you say, but I think what limits these episodes is the runtime if anything, and they don't need to explain everything that happened in the mcu for every episode.
True
I only got this on the second watching of the doctor strange episode, but the absolute point stuff is a lot more simple than everyone is making it. In this universe Christine's death inspires Strange to learn time travel. It is an absolute point because if Strange goes back in time and saves Christine, then he would not learn how to time travel and thus would not be able to go back in time to save Christine, so she would die. This paradox is what destroys the timeline and makes it an absolute point. In the movie timeline, Strange injuring his hands is an absolute point in time for the same reason.
The Doctor Strange one was honestly my favorite one
It’s very inconsistent in quality
However episode 4 and 6 is peak in terms of performances
Edit: You need to see Episode 8, Thats all I’m saying
I personally liked 3 and 5 better 😂 though the acting for Strange in 4 and Killmonger in 6 was great!
yeah
Bro episode 6 was straight doody. "What if... kilmonger was smarter and had a better plan?" So boring smh.
@@azazelaz999 kilmonger graduated from MIT with 6 degrees.... Yeah hes smart
@@kingkong9892 exactly he was smart in the main universe already, sick "what if" to jus make him smarter with a better plan.
I think the point of what if ep2 isn’t to rag on star lord for being the imperfect human being he is. It makes me appreciate him more as a character because his arcs in both guardians films are more clearly defined- t’Chala never had to go through what he did so of course he has an easier time. Idk what it is but it just adds nuance for me. Plus because he may have not a found family in the guardians he’s likely to be easily corruptible by ego (or unable to fight him) and that universe is thus doomed.
Exactly. Plus I don't think any What If...?'s could ruin the original movies. They aren't saying this character could do it better. Literally these are different universes. Some slightly different like Captain Carter and some vastly different like T'Challa as Starlord.
The episode still felt like a Gary Stu fanfic.
@@jlev1028 A character doesn't necessarily need flaws or an arc to be interesting to follow. It's the classic Captain America or Superman approach, where it's interesting because the protagonists don't need to change.
@@beyondtrash1627 The thing is Captain America and Superman are still flawed. The former is very naive about modern life given he's from the '40s and the latter often struggles balancing his civilian identity with superheroes. Superman is often reckless and doesn't think things through when fighting villains. Your comparisons are wrong. Besides, what's so interesting about a character who's friends with everyone because he's so super duper perfect? The episode overcompensated when trying to tribute Chadwick Boseman.
@@jlev1028 all of the episodes are fan fiction, it just depends on which you like more if any
His hands where never broken in the What If timeline
"Knowing he was sick"? I thought no one really knew Chadwick was sick except some close family? Unless your not talking about the writers but Chadwick himself
Yeah, I turned this off when he said that.
That part when he kills what wouldve been war machine got me. "Why do you wear the same uniform as your oppressors?"
I totally agree with everyone here in saying that,: yes, you're making no sense with your doctor-strange-episode problems.
4:04 Doctor Strange has to lose something so becomes the sorcerer supreme. Christine and him did date in the past. This is a what if of them staying together.
It ironically shows how consistent the mcu canon been, where people are complaining a what if cartoon show doesn’t fit... like... tf
Don't use the term "cartoon" to excuse quality. All What If? does is use a different visual style.
For what it's worth, the classic What if...? comics were also all over the place in terms of tone, content, and quality. I've enjoyed the show for the most part. I'm glad it's around, and successful enough to Disney to keep it.
we barely have the comprehension of the rules of the multiverse. this episode helps establish canon to the "magic" aspect of rules regarding different timelines. im sure this will lead to more depth in spiderman nwh and dr strange 2.
Lol how he so un self aware that his problem for ‘what if’ was that the character dynamic were different... almost like.. what if.. like ffs
No. His problem was that the tone was internally inconsistent and the stories weren’t compelling.
@@LilDP but it wasn’t ‘internally’... spent like 5 minutes about how Christine from external movie didn’t line up with it, so your straight up wrong lol
@@WuMyth Do you know what tone is?
@@LilDP my original comment has nothing to do with his comment about the tone, you saying he said another thing about something else? Ok?
@@WuMyth not sure if you’re following the conversation
I get where you’re coming from with these thoughts but all the nitpicking about timelines is why I don’t really want “What If” to be directly connected to the MCU. Background Easter eggs, little lines, etc. sure. But if this series is a place where writers can explore fun ideas and not have to worry about how it affects how we think about structures and rules like how timelines work in the MCU that’d be awesome. It would add a lot of freedom to the writers to do whatever they wanted to get their specific story across
Literally tells you that these are different universes.
Why is that a comforting answer to people tho? By that logic, couldn't the main universe Avengers travel to said universes where time travel for some reason works differently and cheat all they want?
We'll probably find out in upcoming episodes and the Phase 4 movies. For now these are self-contained universes and while they can follow some semblance of the main universe's timeline they still have their own set of events and rules.
A simplified explanation is that doing this allows writers to be more flexible without 'staining' the main timeline with impossible happenings.
The key difference between the timelines isn't Christine dying specifically, it's really strange losing the thing he values most. In the movie, it was his hands and career, but in the what if episode it's his love.
so Strange is a completely different person in that timeline with different feelings and motivations? maybe there should have been a better what if question since it seemed like her death was the reason for that alternate universe when really something much earlier must have changed to turn strange into someone who's entirely motivated by his gf and who cares about nothing else in his life.
@@andyrobin7196 nah its simply just an alternate version of strange who has different priorities. its an alternate universe simple as that
My guess catalyst moment for episode 4 was that Strange and Kristine had a better relationship.
The Doctor Strange episode is one of the best things Marvel has released in ages. It felt tight and self contained, with a rigid beginning, middle and end, unlike the perpetual cliffhangers and post credits stingers of the movies. You didn’t need to have the characters be the same versions as in the movies, since the mere question of how far one would be willing to go to have a dead loved one back resonates so universally. And the ending with an entire reality destroyed by someone’s love for another person, and still not having them back is excruciating.
Regarding MCU time travel, a theory I’ve heard that tries to reconcile all the conflicting rules is that which “laws” govern time travel depend upon the method of travel. So different things are easier or harder to do or have different consequences when you’re using a time stone versus TVA devices or the micro-verse.
tony stark: *exists*
what if:"okay get in the coffin"
Dude you need to take a big long break from the mcu lol, this was the most nitpicky TH-cam thing from anyone I ever seen lol
If they Restricted themselves to keeping things the Exact Same but only changing One Point, that would make for bland story telling. Simple swaps, nothing more.
Doctor Strange’s What If was a much more aggressive what if, making it clear that this show does NOT play by Loki Rules.
This isn’t always just branch timelines. It’s entirely new realities with their own fixed points.
See, What If lost me on the Zombies episode. People loved the Thanos reveal, but to me it feel flat. I was like, so? It doesn't matter because we're not going to have a part 2 until at least season 2. What if feels like setup to great scenarios, but rarely the scenarios themselves.
The "What if" in episode 4 is an alternate reality where Chrtine agreed to Strange's dinner date that he asked her to in his solo movie.
I want to go to the Universe where Nando goes back in time to become the Kevin Feige of that branch and just... refines everything.
What If... Nando mostly nitpicked, just like his podcast: Mostly Nitpicking?
Wong couldn’t join the fight because he was glooped away lol
Yeah, along with everyone else. The whole "ooh but what if the Avengers fought Doctor Strange??" is kind of a dumb idea. Nando's complaint about mirror villains doesn't fit here because it's not just "oh wow they have the same powers how cool!" (in fact, they have very different fighting styles) it's the same person vs. a slightly different version of himself. It's both justified (the Ancient One thinks the only person who can stop him is himself) and makes for some awesome character reactions. Having the Avengers or Wong fight Strange Supreme would've felt forced and random, along with causing a minor plot hole and not really fitting well with the tone of the episode.
Regarding the point about "how does time travel work in the MCU" why do all forms of time travel have to work the same? It's not that hard to just say that the Time Stone, Quantum Realm Time Travel, and TVA Time Travel all work in different ways.
You're kidding?! This series has gotten progressively more awesome every episode. The last 3 are amazing. You trippin
I just want to say: the fact that all of this multiverse stuff, including the events of episode four, break the rules of Loki is meaningless. I think it’s intentional that this series came out after the events of Loki. As such, there is no TVA preventing multi-verses from happening, so that is how our watcher friend can see all these universes existing.
shoulda kept this one in the drafts
I see it as if christine doesn't die he never becomes the SS and never goes back to save her or if she doesn't die then that universe never existed so its just deleted.
Right, he created a Grandfather Paradox by saving Christine's life, and apparently the cost of that in the MCU multiverse is the complete destruction of your universe.
@@reggie1025 I mean no paradox if there's no universe
I dunno man, I always thought that the Dr. Stange-Christine pairing was the 4th strongest romantic pairing after WandaVision, Steve+Peggy, and Peter+Gamora. I thought Rachal McAdams does a lot of subtle work in Dr. Strange that elevated it past what it is on paper, and she's cast to come back for the 2nd Dr. Strange.
Also, the TVA is not an issue because this takes place in the new post-TVA Multiverse.
Couldn’t disagree more with you. I loved Episode 4, and it’s my favorite one so far. But 3 and 6 were also great.
Same 4 was amazing
My interpretation of the absolute point of time is that they meant it as a nexus event. Basically, without these specific events happening, a splintered reality wouldn't exist, so if someone were to undo it, the time would never splinter, and therefore be erased.
I have a bit of trouble suspending my disbelief at the Wakanda royals minimally objecting to a stranger dropping the drawbridge for the murderbots.
1) He's not a stranger.
2) His reasoning was literally right, the shield did stop the connection.
3) They were capable of fighting the robots off even within the shield if the plan hadn't worked.
Just some counter points to help you feel more comfortable with suspension of belief.
@@beyondtrash1627 It's like, I know they ID him with the tattoo but they don't really know him. And they only discover he's kinda right after the bots get in. I'd just like to think Wakanadans would be more wary...
“So which one is it, TILDA?!”
Come on man...for someone who's "job it is to watch Marvel movies" it seems like you're completely missing the point of Strange Supreme. In that universe Christine, instead of his hands, were the most important thing in his life. Strange has to lose what is most important to him in order to become a sorcerer. If not, there is a paradox. Pretty simple concepts. It's an anthology show but it seems like you're treating it like main universe/timeline canon...
I always read the relationship with Christine as a deep love that couldn’t withstand Dr. Strange’s ego and drive… She walked away from him because she could never compete kind of thing
I don’t know that it was “deep.” Christine was kind to him and treated him as a friend, but Strange never gave her the time of day unless he needed something from her
You got "deep love" off a a character with less than 5 minutes of screen time and is never brought up again?
@@kingkong9892 I got nuanced… that took place throughout the the film
@@violetlavi2207 exactly my point for why she chose to end the relationship
One hint of their love is the wristwatch she gave him…. It’s what he chose to wear the night of his accident, it’s the last possession he has left as he searches for The Ancient One, he begs the thieves not to take it, he looks at the inscription “time will tell how much I love you -Christine” and places it gently on the table in his room on his first night, and what he puts on once he becomes Sorcerer Supreme.
Every time Doctor Strange says “CHRISTINE!!” you have to drink.
My understanding of an Absolute Point in time is that it is the same as a Nexus Point: Christine's Death was what made the new universe branch off from the current timeline and if her death is erased, then the whole universe would collapse (because it is no longer a different universe). Like how they erase a timeline branch in Loki by pruning the variants and aberrations. I also figured that Cagliostro figured out how to do it but stopped before he destroyed the universe unlike Strange Supreme and just recorded the knowledge of how it was done in his books.
To my understanding, an absolute point is not the same as a nexus event. A nexus event is a choice (be it a significant or mundane one) that results in outcomes different than what transpired on the Sacred Timeline. An absolute point is an event that causes a certain choice to be made, and without said event that choice could not be possible.
We know the nexus event was not Christine’s death since the timeline was already variant before she died as evidenced by her being in the car with him, so the nexus event was actually her saying yes to joining him to his award ceremony rather than declining like she did in the movie. Potentially the actual nexus was them being closer romantically because in the movie she declines because she thinks his award ceremonies are no fun because they’re always all about him, so in this universe she must not think that).
Her death is an absolute point because without that this version of Strange would never have sought out the mystic arts, thus never become keeper of the time stone, thus never could go back to prevent her death, thus a reality destroying temporal paradox.
I just approach this series differently, plus it’s not my job to look into these things too much and if I do I just laugh it off all the nonsense. Like your time travel point doesn’t really ring true for me because I just accept it and move on. I just accept that in this universe Doctor Strange has a better relationship with Christine.
Dunno I don’t really have much reason why I enjoy these and I don’t really want one. I put them on and pretty much fill in the blanks and end up enjoying them more than most people I think.
It's not that one can't accept that Doctor Strange has a better relationship with Christine. Like, it's fine when Thanos shows up in the second one and he's all friendly and getting along with the Ravagers. But the whole story isn't about Thanos being friends with those guys. This is about Doc and Christine's relationship, and all we see is a few lines of banter.
Yeah marvel fans will refuse to admit when marvel does something that is messy or convoluted when it is OBSCENELY messy and convoluted
And now I remember the Robot Chicken skit where Superman complains about Bizarro, Flash about Reverse Flash, and Wonder Woman about Negative Wonder Woman, who proceeds to brag about her Visible Jet and the fact that it's convenient to find.
When Tchalla talks to killmonger on the spirit plane you can hear the weakness in his voice
I think the time travel rules of the MCU are fairly straightforward, at least less confusing than time travel in Dragonball or other forms of anime. Marvels rules are fleshing out as events go along and the magical/reality bending power spectrum being a theme now makes things seem messier, cause there are more room for exceptions but still pretty easy to follow
I like your content but Your take on ep 4 is BS
"So which one is it Tilda!"
I want T-shirts
One of the things I appreciate about your channel is how creative and thought-provoking you are, Nando.
They need to be a bit longer. The dr strange episode is by far the best
Imo What If...‘s only _major_ problem is pacing, and even then the later episodes have had much better pacing.
Some of these concepts are literally a movie (Captain Carter is a 30 minute modified version of a like 2 hour movie), but some are pretty well paced.
Honestly, if they gave them 45 minutes instead of 30 I think there’d be a marked improvement.
I feel like this is a case of critics being so deeply steeped in cliches, tropes, and, well, critiquing that what works for them isn’t what works for a layperson.
I haven’t heard a ton of buzz IRL about What If but all of it has been positive.
Exactly. These aren't the exact same characters we saw in the MCU. These are alternate universes with completely different timelines. Him critiquing the Dr. Strange episode based on the relationships he had in the Dr. Strange movie makes no sense. Some episodes just need more time to get to know these universes characters better. I didn't really like the first episode that much because it was too much like The First Avenger, but with some roles swapped.
The relationship with strange existed BEFORE the crash,that's why he went NUTS
But you make a point,we didn't have some intro or anything
The "What if...?" of episode 4 is "What if Strange brought Christine to the banquet?"
"Like he's the OJ simpson of this universe"
1st. Hilarious. 2nd, it's possible he figured out how to do it, but he knew what the cost would be. ( Personally, I wouldn't have written it down)
Yeah I felt that he had the power to do it, but the previous Ancient One stopped him in the process.
Or like a theoretical physicist he knew how but couldn't prove it.
I assumed he just figured out, "Hey, you need a buttload of power to undo an absolute point," and then figured out that absorbing beings got you more power, so he connected the two.
Episode six felt EXTREMELY contrived, it totally pulled me out of it.
Yeah episode six has been my least favorite so far whole four was my fave
Honestly these episodes should be hour long, so we can get more development in these worlds
Honestly that tchalla episode couldve been its own short series 1-5 episodes)