The poem is a great example of consuming works that you find personally helpful from people who’s views and actions were terrible. It really does help define the lines of supporting the art for what it can do for you versus the artist. I also enjoyed your take on being aware of the media you consume. Overall I just really like your video essays.
And one big thing I think is while Philip Larkin was a horrible man, it was just his views not his actions. I think that there's a big difference between someone who had horrid beliefs, but didn't do anything apart from trying to spread them, as to someone who actually DID something bad.
Thank you for sharing this. It’s thought-provoking and personal, and gives viewers a stable jumping off point in assessing their own relationship with media of questionable origin.
That's some heavy stuff kid. I think your proposition that acknowledging "death of the author" combined with self-awareness is as even handed of an answer we could possibly find. Good video. 👍
Thank you, you put into words something I've been trying to articulate for years. When I re-watched Fifth Element and Leon the Professional as an adult they gave me very conflicted feelings and they were some of my favorite movies.
This resonated a lot with me and I appreciate you addressing the complexities of ethics and audience. Also that poem spoke to me as well, unsurprisingly.
I really appreciate that you make the distinction between the three types of ways that you can look at canceling someone: Theoretically is it a loss to cancel an individual because then we lose something intrinsic to history; Don't support currently bad people because we don't want to let them continue to be more bad; and If a piece of art is near and dear, maybe it's still worth looking at how the sausage was made so you can pick out the horse shit
The way I see it, you can still enjoy their older work (with the caveats mentioned in the video) but I wouldn’t pay for their work made after their horrendous actions come to light. I’m fine with watching Seven or American Beauty but if Kevin Spacey were starring in a movie this year, I wouldn’t see it. And try not to contribute financially to monsters. That may be hard for some (like diehard Harry Potter fans) but that’s also completely up to them to decide. It should also be the responsibility of other artists not to work with artists we know are racist, abusive, etc.
I read that poem as a teenager and it had a pretty significant role in my realisation that my parents had fucked me up, but they were people too and they did their best. I had a vague idea that the author was a pretty crap person but didn't know the extent of it. It would be cool to hear more of your thoughts on death of the author if you have more.
there's just so much handwringing and stress over being a responsible consumers these days, and I'll never be able to bring myself to join in despite generally agreeing that bad people are bad and should not be rich and powerful. "There is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is is a phrase that lots of folks criticize as a cop-out, an excuse to be uneducated and do whatever you want without considering the consequences, but honestly if people like J.K. Rowling and Roman Polanski continue to get a little richer because I decided to interrupt my miserable existence with a movie, can you really judge my action as any more or less ethical, morally correct, harmful or whatever tf your damage is than say, eating vegetables picked by exploited immigrants? Or buying clothes made by workers getting paid .9 cents an hour? Eating some almonds? Watching some porn? How long are we going to blame consumers for behaving in statistically predictable patterns when the problem lies with a system that functions upon the whims of people with far more power? You can worry and weigh all the options infinitely until you give yourself an ulcer, or just...choose not to and do whatever you want.
This video really got me thinking about the ethics of consuming material from unsavory creators. Thank you. On a side note, I think your videos would go up another level with a better microphone. It picks up way too much of the high tones and mutes the natural bass of your voice.
Interesting that you consider personal value negotiable (7:54). I think most would subscribe to art being an involuntary sort of experience. Would it be viable to, through discipline, simply not have an emotional connection with a work of art anymore? And if indeed we can not choose *how* we resonate with *what*, then is it a matter for ethics at all? We could choose not to view it again, but would still have to grapple with the good that bad people do. We certainly don't feel guilt for being disgusted by the disgusting, after all. Why does it feel easiest to deal with the bad that bad people do, of the four implied quadrants? Is this something universal or something I inherited?
That is a very good question. Its a complicated matter because, no matter how much we speculate about how someone else could have come along in the future and done the work the bad people did, the fact is thats not how life works. Whats happened has happened. Those bad people made the great art and we have benefited from it. We cant change it even if we wanted too. And unfortunately, there will be terrible people in the future that will do the same thing, and create something good for the world. Something life changing to someone. And they might make it while people are clamoring for them to be canceled. So...do we stop that good from being spread or do we let people look past the author and enjoy the story?
I've thought about this for a long time myself, and I think I arrived at similar conclusions to you Keane. obviously the monetary gain thing is important to consider (and movies can always be pirated), but I think it's even more important to consider, like you said, how the presence of whatever shitty views the creator has show up in the art. for instance Rowling's views are extremely present in the narrative of Harry Potter (transphobia, homophobia, racism). I also, personally, often cannot stomach watching things that I know where made by someone terrible. I tried to rewatch the Usual Suspects recently, a movie I used to watch with my dad. but every time Spacey was on screen I just felt slightly ill and really couldn't finish the movie.
Ugh. Fucking Luc Besson. I did not know until now, which sucks, because I looked up to him as a creator of narratives and he's fucking gross. I feel like there's still stuff I can learn from him as a story teller, but now there will be a tarnish on everything. I mean, I haven't been able to watch the Professional without cringing for years, but this is worse. Anyway, thanks for making this video. I started watching on Tiktok and am enjoying your longer essays. I'm always down with dissecting some aspect of film or narrative.
As a latter-day saint (Mormon) I am deeply offended that you would label us as a misogynistic cult without doing much research into the matter. Never the less I still appreciate your work.
EXACTLY!! Just bc some ppl who may follow a religion does not mean every person of that religion is racist, misogynistic, or part or a cult. Religion isn’t a cult btw💀
I always found the poem summarizing the concept of generational trauma, with how each generation of parents severes their child in a manner he does later to his child and so forth. Which is noticeable with the family of Bojack Horseman. How Bojack's grandfather has been parenting his daughter, which heavily affected her parenting on Bojack, along with his father's parenting to the point I was left with the impression that Bojack won't be having children of his own for keeping the cycle of abuse running.
The poem is a great example of consuming works that you find personally helpful from people who’s views and actions were terrible. It really does help define the lines of supporting the art for what it can do for you versus the artist. I also enjoyed your take on being aware of the media you consume. Overall I just really like your video essays.
And one big thing I think is while Philip Larkin was a horrible man, it was just his views not his actions. I think that there's a big difference between someone who had horrid beliefs, but didn't do anything apart from trying to spread them, as to someone who actually DID something bad.
That romance painting transition is dope!
Thank you for sharing this. It’s thought-provoking and personal, and gives viewers a stable jumping off point in assessing their own relationship with media of questionable origin.
That's some heavy stuff kid. I think your proposition that acknowledging "death of the author" combined with self-awareness is as even handed of an answer we could possibly find. Good video. 👍
That poem has helped me a lot, but I didn't know how trash the author was.
I hope your journey of healing goes smoothly
Thank you, you put into words something I've been trying to articulate for years. When I re-watched Fifth Element and Leon the Professional as an adult they gave me very conflicted feelings and they were some of my favorite movies.
This resonated a lot with me and I appreciate you addressing the complexities of ethics and audience. Also that poem spoke to me as well, unsurprisingly.
I really appreciate that you make the distinction between the three types of ways that you can look at canceling someone: Theoretically is it a loss to cancel an individual because then we lose something intrinsic to history; Don't support currently bad people because we don't want to let them continue to be more bad; and If a piece of art is near and dear, maybe it's still worth looking at how the sausage was made so you can pick out the horse shit
I relate to this video so much. Thank you for putting words to what i have always been trying to say.
The way I see it, you can still enjoy their older work (with the caveats mentioned in the video) but I wouldn’t pay for their work made after their horrendous actions come to light. I’m fine with watching Seven or American Beauty but if Kevin Spacey were starring in a movie this year, I wouldn’t see it. And try not to contribute financially to monsters. That may be hard for some (like diehard Harry Potter fans) but that’s also completely up to them to decide. It should also be the responsibility of other artists not to work with artists we know are racist, abusive, etc.
glad i stumbled upon this
I appreciate the Hanna reference, I feel like that movie goes unnoticed
I read that poem as a teenager and it had a pretty significant role in my realisation that my parents had fucked me up, but they were people too and they did their best. I had a vague idea that the author was a pretty crap person but didn't know the extent of it. It would be cool to hear more of your thoughts on death of the author if you have more.
there's just so much handwringing and stress over being a responsible consumers these days, and I'll never be able to bring myself to join in despite generally agreeing that bad people are bad and should not be rich and powerful. "There is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is is a phrase that lots of folks criticize as a cop-out, an excuse to be uneducated and do whatever you want without considering the consequences, but honestly if people like J.K. Rowling and Roman Polanski continue to get a little richer because I decided to interrupt my miserable existence with a movie, can you really judge my action as any more or less ethical, morally correct, harmful or whatever tf your damage is than say, eating vegetables picked by exploited immigrants? Or buying clothes made by workers getting paid .9 cents an hour? Eating some almonds? Watching some porn? How long are we going to blame consumers for behaving in statistically predictable patterns when the problem lies with a system that functions upon the whims of people with far more power?
You can worry and weigh all the options infinitely until you give yourself an ulcer, or just...choose not to and do whatever you want.
This video really got me thinking about the ethics of consuming material from unsavory creators. Thank you.
On a side note, I think your videos would go up another level with a better microphone. It picks up way too much of the high tones and mutes the natural bass of your voice.
Hey so this was about 11 minutes!
Interesting that you consider personal value negotiable (7:54). I think most would subscribe to art being an involuntary sort of experience. Would it be viable to, through discipline, simply not have an emotional connection with a work of art anymore? And if indeed we can not choose *how* we resonate with *what*, then is it a matter for ethics at all? We could choose not to view it again, but would still have to grapple with the good that bad people do. We certainly don't feel guilt for being disgusted by the disgusting, after all.
Why does it feel easiest to deal with the bad that bad people do, of the four implied quadrants? Is this something universal or something I inherited?
That is a very good question. Its a complicated matter because, no matter how much we speculate about how someone else could have come along in the future and done the work the bad people did, the fact is thats not how life works. Whats happened has happened. Those bad people made the great art and we have benefited from it. We cant change it even if we wanted too. And unfortunately, there will be terrible people in the future that will do the same thing, and create something good for the world. Something life changing to someone. And they might make it while people are clamoring for them to be canceled. So...do we stop that good from being spread or do we let people look past the author and enjoy the story?
Every bad men have something good to give
Every good men have something bad to give
Intentional or not it just the way that it is
I've thought about this for a long time myself, and I think I arrived at similar conclusions to you Keane. obviously the monetary gain thing is important to consider (and movies can always be pirated), but I think it's even more important to consider, like you said, how the presence of whatever shitty views the creator has show up in the art. for instance Rowling's views are extremely present in the narrative of Harry Potter (transphobia, homophobia, racism). I also, personally, often cannot stomach watching things that I know where made by someone terrible. I tried to rewatch the Usual Suspects recently, a movie I used to watch with my dad. but every time Spacey was on screen I just felt slightly ill and really couldn't finish the movie.
I absolutely love your videos. Though I do wish you’d tone down the woke bullshit a tad
Ugh. Fucking Luc Besson. I did not know until now, which sucks, because I looked up to him as a creator of narratives and he's fucking gross. I feel like there's still stuff I can learn from him as a story teller, but now there will be a tarnish on everything. I mean, I haven't been able to watch the Professional without cringing for years, but this is worse.
Anyway, thanks for making this video. I started watching on Tiktok and am enjoying your longer essays. I'm always down with dissecting some aspect of film or narrative.
As a latter-day saint (Mormon) I am deeply offended that you would label us as a misogynistic cult without doing much research into the matter. Never the less I still appreciate your work.
EXACTLY!! Just bc some ppl who may follow a religion does not mean every person of that religion is racist, misogynistic, or part or a cult. Religion isn’t a cult btw💀
The official positions of the church itself are those things, whether individual members support them or not.
I always found the poem summarizing the concept of generational trauma, with how each generation of parents severes their child in a manner he does later to his child and so forth.
Which is noticeable with the family of Bojack Horseman. How Bojack's grandfather has been parenting his daughter, which heavily affected her parenting on Bojack, along with his father's parenting to the point I was left with the impression that Bojack won't be having children of his own for keeping the cycle of abuse running.
I’m sry but u lost me when you wrongly insulted my religion💀 You probably don’t care but just saying yk.