Wow! All the I told you so comments. Give Keith credit, donated work, no short time line, (why rush) Having worked both metal and wood machines, there is no comparison. The original machines were cutting fresh castings with fresh machines, with engineered tooling. My bet goes with Keith getting the job done! You do what you can with what you have, when you succeed more power to you. Thanks Keith Love this project and the videos.
Exactly the Engeneering Co. that origionaly made this would have had the wharewithall to make any specialised tooling to make this as they were probibly turning out hundreds of them.
Well, i watched you struggle to disassemble this beast. Then I watched Adam struggle. Now you’re struggling.Wow! Who knew a 100 year old casting could give y’all such fits. I appreciate your perseverance.
Keith on the side of that machine there is a handle for the horizontal spindle. It says "left", "right", and "neutral". Put that handle in the "neutral" position and then engage the spindle. The spindle will not turn, but yet all of the feeds will work when using the vertical spindle. Less wear and tear on the horizontal spindle.
For those wondering the locomotive that this engine is to be used on is in the reassembly phase, so keith should be getting back around to this project soon
When things don't go so well we have a tendency to edit out some of the most interesting footage. Thank you for sharing this, cant wait to see the finished job.
If you had access to horizontal borer, you could have clamped down to bed on parrallels up against a dialed in angle plate. Then use cutters adapted to quill to machine up verticle journals. Great vids Keith, love em.
Keith: make a new extension shaft for the insert cutter you already have, but with 2" diameter. Cut a relief groove where you need it to clear the front lip on the casting. This create a much stiffer extension, albeit with stress concentration at the relief groove. I don't think strength will be a problem is you take it easy on the cuts. Good luck!
That machine brings back a lot of memories. Second shift at the Boeing Co. in Macon Ga. in the machine shop. We had several of those and did a LOT of work with them. Heck even the rapid travel and the hydraulics sound the same... Thanks Keith!
I have no idea what you are doing. But I keep watching aĺ your videos. Other than hammering few nails around the house I never ever done anything. But I like these types of work. And you haven't explained how the original one was done back old days when there's no such precision mechanisms. Anyway thank you for sharing.
Keith, with that spindly first cutter/end mill, could you have operated it like pocket milling, coming straight down to a pre-selected depth, bringing the cutter back up, traversing the part, and the coming back down to the same depth? That way the bulk of the metal removal is done with the shaft in compression rather than in bending moment.
At least you've figured out a way of cutting this that you can prove will work. Seems with the spray welding you'd need 1 or 2 people just dedicated to keeping the casting heated while one person does the welding.
Most likely a vertical mill with a cutter that would do the job. Remember, this is a piece of railroad equipment, most of that stuff is very specialized along with the equipment used to manufacture and maintain it.
He said in the other video that doing this horizontally would be less rigid. Doing it vertically means the cutting forces are going down against the table instead of some kind of clamped angle blocks or whatever.
@@kindabluejazz "Less rigid" depends on the size of your angle plate. A big enough plate or block would result in it being plenty rigid mounted vertically. But the tool head is plenty rigid here, the problem is having to use a stupid-long small shaft on the tool. It would be the same problem on an HBM.
Hi Kieth, for your set-up on the front faces would a ground square, mounted on its side, provide you with a better horizontal (y) and vertical (z) reference rather than the faces with the grooves you encountered in the original. I'm thinking of one of your 12" ground squares or maybe one from Fireball. Much like you used the parallel on the slide faces for the horizontal (x) reference. I hope I've got my x,y&z correctly oriented. Otherwise thanks for the video. Regards from Canada's banana belt.🤞🇨🇦👍
If it's possible, perhaps you could increase the diameter of the round bar supporting the insert cutter. Stiffness is to the forth power of the diameter. In other words, if the present diameter is 1", increasing it to 1.5" will make the long bar about 5 times stiffer (1.5^4=5.0625). That may reduce chatter. Also, shortening the bar as much as possible will help. The stiffness of the bar is a cube function of the length. Shortening the bar by 10% will make the bar about 30% stiffer.
Greetings from Australia Keith. Where did this restoration get up to? Is it still going? I don't watch all the videos, I just kinda follow the playlists and the videos that take my interest randomly.
I was surprised that a radial arm drill that size would only go down to 100 rpm. I have only used a couple in my working life, but as I recall they would go down to 20 or 30 rpm.
He was saying that by indicating one plane the plane 90 degrees that one would also be true. That’s actually quite ridiculous of him to assume everything is square enough to be true one another.
Please show the drawing on the next video (completed machining) so all can see what dimensions and tolerances are required. A transparent template of maximum spindle/cutter/1/32 clearance may help those not understanding setups and equipment appreciate the successful effort. Was an inspection report created after disassembly and cleaning? Time taken early can ease set-up averaging by zeroing on a known.
@@jeffdayman8183 Keith did the spraywelding with Lance baltzy, abom79 tried to machine it with the shaper but it was to tight on his shaper. The milling marks are factory as kieth explained in the video when he was making the extension for the cutter
If all else fails, you could cut all but the front half inch with the machine, and then do the last half inch by hand with a mill file. It would be a fiddly pain, but cast iron files nicely, and for a half inch you can just glide the file on the milled surface and make the end match. If it flares a half thou or so it is no big deal, the slide isn't going to apply enough pressure there to rock.
Hi Keith, It's been over a year now, and I was wondering about the progress of the Stoker Engine. That I can see, this is the last video that you posted. Is this project on hold for some reason, or will you be getting back to this project sometime in the near future?
Yeah, but figure that the machines used were even beefier than what he's using now. There's a limit at which point a flycut doesn't work anymore if the machine can't support it. It goes into harmonics far faster and you get really buggered cuts. You can do the same with a small machine, by giving it a much bigger cutter than it was meant to take. THAT, is why, when you get an old machine, getting the tooling it used to use all its life is worth the weight in gold. You don't have to figure out all the specs, someone already did for you.
Nice job Sir, glad you got it almost done. Is there a possibility to cut off some of the engine wall to fit the arbor? Then just weld the piece back and mill the gasket surface.
As I have previously writing, considering the nature of the linkage that requires these cross head journals, the length of the journals actual travel is dependent upon the travel of the piston rods and the crankshaft rods needed to permit the pistons to not bottom outsgai st the casting while still permitting the crankshaft to be fully rotated in their offsets. For the era of the manufacture of this engine, it would not be something of mass manufacture and the journals could actually be longer than the necessary length of travel. While I understand that you wish to return the journals to their original finished length, you may still have some acceptable tolerances.
Very interesting, I would be somewhat concerned about the cut through areas of the thin spray weld flaking off with use. Well if it doesn't work out you could always mill it deeper and add a bronze insert on the floor and sides if necessary. Bet you could even Turcite the thing once its milled flat. Would want to verify Turcite's temp or moisture characteristics first. The cross slide is quite long and as plenty of bearing even without the last bit you can't reach. Just die grind and hand scrape the last bit.
The problem is not the size of the machine, it's the rigidity trade-off between the length and diameter of the arbor/cutter. Any sized machine will still have that same constraint. He just needs to get the right arbor/cutter and this machine will be fine.
@@kindabluejazz oh, definitely. If his own machine had enough reach he could have done it on that. But here the thinn shaft for the tool was the weakest link in the chain. Wonder it it would work better with a smaller cutter on the end
Glad it is getting done. Seems like the spray welding did not fill in all the pits at the end. Can you braze over the spray welding to fill in these few remaining pits? Bronze should make a decent sliding surface. Thank you
So do the cross-heads run off the cylinder end of the newly machined ways? If the area that you can't quite reach due to tool holder diameter does not carry any thrust, why not just ramp it down with a grinder? You also might have a little more reach if you use a fly cutter set just shy of the width of the channel. Areas where the spray weld didn't cover completely will just hold oil.
Would it be possible to make some type of flywheel to clamp to the long cutter shaft you made? I'm thinking the inertial mass would tend to dampen any flex in the shaft to allow it to work.. just a thought.
Keith, I am a long-time subscriber to your channel and have been watching and learning from some excellent engineering over time. With this in mind I have a suggestion for you that would provide excellent content for your channel as well as a few other mechanical engineering channels. So far I have seen you repair parts for countless old and antique machines over the years and I was wondering how it would be if, instead of just repairing an older machine, you sourced the raw materials then fabricated and machined the parts and finally assembled and built a completely new machine in the old style? This could be done over many videos in collaboration with other channels like Abom79, Windy Hill foundry, et al. I think this would take a lot of work and a lot of communication between everyone, but I believe it would definitely be do-able, and a fantastic achievement. Let me know what you think or if an idea like this has been floated before. Cheers.
Would it be possible to weld up and turn to size a boss on the first cutter that Keith made that would then fit into the extended reach holder? The holder gives rigidity due to it's size and the wider cutter can get into the end bits. Seems (to me) the chatter is just to the lack of thickness and the long length.
Might be a dumb question, but is there a reason you can't use this setup and tilt the head 15 deg or so towards the obscured end? I know it's not ideal on the cutter, but seems like it'd be "good enough"?
Coulda, shoulda woulda but I wonder if heat treating the carbide end mill holder would have helped. Also, I'm thinking more spindle RPM would have made lighter chip load on the carbide inserts. This is the opposite to the normal way to get rid of chatter but I think in this case it might have worked but who knows. Would love to see the original setup from the factory.
I wouldn’t think heat treating would help, hardness doesn’t change the modulus of elasticity for a given material. It would still bend the same amount under the same amount of force, the difference would be how much bend you need to permanently deform it where it won’t spring back. At least that’s my understanding of it. To get a stiffer tool I think you need a chunkier bar with a larger diameter and as short as possible, or move to a different material like carbide.
I'm not a machinist in anyway,but would a horizontal boring mill work better in this situation by having the case standing on end? My have to get yours working, or contact Brian Bloc.
I'm watching this two years later. What happened to this project.
Wow! All the I told you so comments. Give Keith credit, donated work, no short time line, (why rush) Having worked both metal and wood machines, there is no comparison. The original machines were cutting fresh castings with fresh machines, with engineered tooling. My bet goes with Keith getting the job done! You do what you can with what you have, when you succeed more power to you. Thanks Keith Love this project and the videos.
Exactly the Engeneering Co. that origionaly made this would have had the wharewithall to make any specialised tooling to make this as they were probibly turning out hundreds of them.
Always a treat to see another episode in the stoker engine saga :-)
Well, i watched you struggle to disassemble this beast. Then I watched Adam struggle. Now you’re struggling.Wow! Who knew a 100 year old casting could give y’all such fits. I appreciate your perseverance.
Keith on the side of that machine there is a handle for the horizontal spindle. It says "left", "right", and "neutral". Put that handle in the "neutral" position and then engage the spindle. The spindle will not turn, but yet all of the feeds will work when using the vertical spindle. Less wear and tear on the horizontal spindle.
For those wondering the locomotive that this engine is to be used on is in the reassembly phase, so keith should be getting back around to this project soon
When things don't go so well we have a tendency to edit out some of the most interesting footage. Thank you for sharing this, cant wait to see the finished job.
Happy trails. Be safe. Hope all goes well giving away the bride.
Slow and easy, great job Keith.
If you had access to horizontal borer, you could have clamped down to bed on parrallels up against a dialed in angle plate. Then use cutters adapted to quill to machine up verticle journals. Great vids Keith, love em.
One day you'll discover some old documentation that says they cut the original slot with a belt sander or something :)
Keith: make a new extension shaft for the insert cutter you already have, but with 2" diameter. Cut a relief groove where you need it to clear the front lip on the casting. This create a much stiffer extension, albeit with stress concentration at the relief groove. I don't think strength will be a problem is you take it easy on the cuts. Good luck!
And only use 1 insert, like a small fly cutter. That will go slower but just maybe....
That machine brings back a lot of memories. Second shift at the Boeing Co. in Macon Ga. in the machine shop. We had several of those and did a LOT of work with them. Heck even the rapid travel and the hydraulics sound the same... Thanks Keith!
Thanks for sharing! Keep at it, you're almost there.
I have no idea what you are doing. But I keep watching aĺ your videos. Other than hammering few nails around the house I never ever done anything. But I like these types of work. And you haven't explained how the original one was done back old days when there's no such precision mechanisms. Anyway thank you for sharing.
Congratulations to your Daughter.
John Terry seems to be a top bloke always very helpful to a lot of guys. :-)
Thanks for sharing Keith 🦘🇦🇺👍
Great attitude Keith. Enjoyed that.
good luck and safe journey
hope everything goes perfectly for your daughter on her big day!
best wishes
Stoked to see the stoker!
SO GLAD to see progress on this project! Keep up the good work Keith!
Has the stoker engine project been completed?
Loving this series. But this is your second part 15 in it. :)
Sometimes you’ve just got to try. Great perseverance Keith. Really enjoying these videos
Keith, with that spindly first cutter/end mill, could you have operated it like pocket milling, coming straight down to a pre-selected depth, bringing the cutter back up, traversing the part, and the coming back down to the same depth? That way the bulk of the metal removal is done with the shaft in compression rather than in bending moment.
Ah man, I was rooting for that long mill extension thing you made.
I thought you'd abandoned this project, glad to see you didn't.
GREAT START, GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO, SEE YOU NEXT TIME...
Great work
At least you've figured out a way of cutting this that you can prove will work. Seems with the spray welding you'd need 1 or 2 people just dedicated to keeping the casting heated while one person does the welding.
I am sure this will be one of those F- bomb jobs, You will get it done keep on digging.
We've had A-bomb, now we've got F-bomb, but what happened to the B, C, D and E-bombs? 😁
@@BedsitBob They are all in there, all the sides are parallel. LOL
Did this project die, or are there other videos located elsewhere?
Keep going Keith! Its always better to try something out and realise it didnt work, than doing nothing^^
Looks like the bottom and the top was done with a fly cutter and sides with an end mill .
The rule of 90%:
The first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time.
The last 10% of the work takes the other 90% of the time.
What about the last 20% of the time??
How very true and typical that is! :)
Preach...
@@andrewstoll4548 Morning and afternoon tea?
Would be nice to know what tooling they used originally to do this job. Perhaps a boring bar with a cutter like in my back facing video?
Most likely a vertical mill with a cutter that would do the job. Remember, this is a piece of railroad equipment, most of that stuff is very specialized along with the equipment used to manufacture and maintain it.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.
Excellent Never give up I know you can !!!!!!!
Did he ever get this running
I was waiting for this episode
MUCH FUN, thanks, always makes me wonder how it was dont in the days of steam power everything. Along with how did someone make the first machine.
I would LOVE to know how they machined this originally
Jeez Louise, giving you a hard time this stoker engine. Can't wait to see the end result
Thanks for the video.
Keith - Brian Block's HBM may be a better option ;) Much more rigid machine, even with extended tools.
Watch the older episode where he machines that fixture plate,he explains why this is a better option.
@@alphadog6970 I did watch it and he explains how HIS HBM would not be a good choice.
@@RedneckIrishman oh ok it must have been some other episode probably when he visited brian last time
He said in the other video that doing this horizontally would be less rigid. Doing it vertically means the cutting forces are going down against the table instead of some kind of clamped angle blocks or whatever.
@@kindabluejazz "Less rigid" depends on the size of your angle plate. A big enough plate or block would result in it being plenty rigid mounted vertically. But the tool head is plenty rigid here, the problem is having to use a stupid-long small shaft on the tool. It would be the same problem on an HBM.
I would love to know what machine and such they used originally to so this job.
Hi Kieth, for your set-up on the front faces would a ground square, mounted on its side, provide you with a better horizontal (y) and vertical (z) reference rather than the faces with the grooves you encountered in the original. I'm thinking of one of your 12" ground squares or maybe one from Fireball. Much like you used the parallel on the slide faces for the horizontal (x) reference.
I hope I've got my x,y&z correctly oriented.
Otherwise thanks for the video.
Regards from Canada's banana belt.🤞🇨🇦👍
Hey thinking out side the box! Mount it on the Carleton, drill use a end mill lower the quill and feed in /out with the arm ?
Hiya Keith
Make a bushing to put the carbide endmill in the deep holder.
Hi Keith, considering the time to find an alternative, could you manually scrape the stoker engine bed?
If it's possible, perhaps you could increase the diameter of the round bar supporting the insert cutter. Stiffness is to the forth power of the diameter. In other words, if the present diameter is 1", increasing it to 1.5" will make the long bar about 5 times stiffer (1.5^4=5.0625). That may reduce chatter. Also, shortening the bar as much as possible will help. The stiffness of the bar is a cube function of the length. Shortening the bar by 10% will make the bar about 30% stiffer.
I made this comment before watching the entire video. You obviously did the correct thing. Sorry.
Once the job is complete and it's fully reassembled, are you planning on showing a test run on compressed air and setting the timing and such?
Thanks for sharing🙏
Greetings from Australia Keith. Where did this restoration get up to? Is it still going? I don't watch all the videos, I just kinda follow the playlists and the videos that take my interest randomly.
Ref. Odds & Ends 126:
Provide end mill extention for available end mill and existing spindle driver.
You can't beat trial and error.👍
There is always plan x,y,z... good job👍👍👍
I was surprised that a radial arm drill that size would only go down to 100 rpm. I have only used a couple in my working life, but as I recall they would go down to 20 or 30 rpm.
Can't say I comprehend KR's two planes at once explanation.
He was saying that by indicating one plane the plane 90 degrees that one would also be true. That’s actually quite ridiculous of him to assume everything is square enough to be true one another.
Please show the drawing on the next video (completed machining) so all can see what dimensions and tolerances are required. A transparent template of maximum spindle/cutter/1/32 clearance may help those not understanding setups and equipment appreciate the successful effort.
Was an inspection report created after disassembly and cleaning? Time taken early can ease set-up averaging by zeroing on a known.
It begs the question how did they mill the original casting, thanks for the update Keith.
@@jeffdayman8183 considering the mill marks on the raised areas they probably did mill it.
@@jeffdayman8183 Keith did the spraywelding with Lance baltzy, abom79 tried to machine it with the shaper but it was to tight on his shaper.
The milling marks are factory as kieth explained in the video when he was making the extension for the cutter
Mark’s look like it was fly cut
When all else fails you will have to get your hand scraping tools and scrape it true!
Regards from Redruth
Arnold
Good morning from SE Louisiana 25 Jun 21.
If all else fails, you could cut all but the front half inch with the machine, and then do the last half inch by hand with a mill file. It would be a fiddly pain, but cast iron files nicely, and for a half inch you can just glide the file on the milled surface and make the end match. If it flares a half thou or so it is no big deal, the slide isn't going to apply enough pressure there to rock.
Hi Keith, It's been over a year now, and I was wondering about the progress of the Stoker Engine. That I can see, this is the last video that you posted. Is this project on hold for some reason, or will you be getting back to this project sometime in the near future?
I'm pretty sure it would have been fly cut when it was made. A hefty shaft for a single tooth cutter would have been very easy to make!
Yeah, but figure that the machines used were even beefier than what he's using now. There's a limit at which point a flycut doesn't work anymore if the machine can't support it. It goes into harmonics far faster and you get really buggered cuts. You can do the same with a small machine, by giving it a much bigger cutter than it was meant to take.
THAT, is why, when you get an old machine, getting the tooling it used to use all its life is worth the weight in gold. You don't have to figure out all the specs, someone already did for you.
@@aserta Not sure what your talking about!
A fly cutter won't help. A fly cutter requires more clearance than any of the other options, and the original problem is limited clearance.
@@fredygump5578 Sorry mate it doesn't require more clearance!
Nice job Sir, glad you got it almost done. Is there a possibility to cut off some of the engine wall to fit the arbor? Then just weld the piece back and mill the gasket surface.
You can't do that with a shaper?
I'd be tempted to relieve the interfering flange a bit if that allowed me to machine to the end of the ways.
As I have previously writing, considering the nature of the linkage that requires these cross head journals, the length of the journals actual travel is dependent upon the travel of the piston rods and the crankshaft rods needed to permit the pistons to not bottom outsgai st the casting while still permitting the crankshaft to be fully rotated in their offsets.
For the era of the manufacture of this engine, it would not be something of mass manufacture and the journals could actually be longer than the necessary length of travel. While I understand that you wish to return the journals to their original finished length, you may still have some acceptable tolerances.
Having a plan that works, is 75% of the job. 😉😉👍👍
Very interesting, I would be somewhat concerned about the cut through areas of the thin spray weld flaking off with use. Well if it doesn't work out you could always mill it deeper and add a bronze insert on the floor and sides if necessary. Bet you could even Turcite the thing once its milled flat. Would want to verify Turcite's temp or moisture characteristics first. The cross slide is quite long and as plenty of bearing even without the last bit you can't reach. Just die grind and hand scrape the last bit.
Jason at Fireball Tools has an even bigger Cincinnati mill ...
It's not about the size, it's about how you use it :D
But yeah, that thing is impressive
The problem is not the size of the machine, it's the rigidity trade-off between the length and diameter of the arbor/cutter. Any sized machine will still have that same constraint. He just needs to get the right arbor/cutter and this machine will be fine.
@@kindabluejazz oh, definitely. If his own machine had enough reach he could have done it on that. But here the thinn shaft for the tool was the weakest link in the chain. Wonder it it would work better with a smaller cutter on the end
Do you think that they may have used a fly cutter originally?
hi keith, when is the next installment?
Glad it is getting done. Seems like the spray welding did not fill in all the pits at the end. Can you braze over the spray welding to fill in these few remaining pits? Bronze should make a decent sliding surface. Thank you
So do the cross-heads run off the cylinder end of the newly machined ways? If the area that you can't quite reach due to tool holder diameter does not carry any thrust, why not just ramp it down with a grinder? You also might have a little more reach if you use a fly cutter set just shy of the width of the channel. Areas where the spray weld didn't cover completely will just hold oil.
Any updates on this thing ?
Has any progress been made on the stoker engine?
And there is a stair! Can we have a tour? Please.
Would it be possible to make some type of flywheel to clamp to the long cutter shaft you made? I'm thinking the inertial mass would tend to dampen any flex in the shaft to allow it to work.. just a thought.
Now thats thinking outside the box. No idea if it would (or could) work but its an interesting thought!
Keith, I am a long-time subscriber to your channel and have been watching and learning from some excellent engineering over time. With this in mind I have a suggestion for you that would provide excellent content for your channel as well as a few other mechanical engineering channels. So far I have seen you repair parts for countless old and antique machines over the years and I was wondering how it would be if, instead of just repairing an older machine, you sourced the raw materials then fabricated and machined the parts and finally assembled and built a completely new machine in the old style? This could be done over many videos in collaboration with other channels like Abom79, Windy Hill foundry, et al. I think this would take a lot of work and a lot of communication between everyone, but I believe it would definitely be do-able, and a fantastic achievement. Let me know what you think or if an idea like this has been floated before. Cheers.
Fly cutter !
How much longer till this thing is done
did this stoker engine ever get finished?
You could always try removing all but one insert on the carbide tool to reduce cutting forces.
Would it be possible to weld up and turn to size a boss on the first cutter that Keith made that would then fit into the extended reach holder? The holder gives rigidity due to it's size and the wider cutter can get into the end bits. Seems (to me) the chatter is just to the lack of thickness and the long length.
Wouldn't it be possible to adapt the carbide insert endmil to fit into the extended reach endmill holder?
Hi Keith is it possible to recut the mill bottom end
You will get it. I'm patient! :-)
How hard is the spray weld material?
What ever happened to the completion of this project?
Might be a dumb question, but is there a reason you can't use this setup and tilt the head 15 deg or so towards the obscured end? I know it's not ideal on the cutter, but seems like it'd be "good enough"?
Progress.... at last! 😁
Could you not put your insert cutter up in that extended end mill holder and just make it way shorter?
I still say you need a heavy duty ( large diameter ) arbor with a shell end mill cutter on the end.
JIM
I know I'm a geek about this, but I have been waiting for this since Adam Booth (Abom79) was trying to get it set up on his shaper!!!
Abom would rather fry a steak
Coulda, shoulda woulda but I wonder if heat treating the carbide end mill holder would have helped. Also, I'm thinking more spindle RPM would have made lighter chip load on the carbide inserts. This is the opposite to the normal way to get rid of chatter but I think in this case it might have worked but who knows. Would love to see the original setup from the factory.
I wouldn’t think heat treating would help, hardness doesn’t change the modulus of elasticity for a given material. It would still bend the same amount under the same amount of force, the difference would be how much bend you need to permanently deform it where it won’t spring back. At least that’s my understanding of it. To get a stiffer tool I think you need a chunkier bar with a larger diameter and as short as possible, or move to a different material like carbide.
Next installment?
I'm not a machinist in anyway,but would a horizontal boring mill work better in this situation by having the case standing on end? My have to get yours working, or contact Brian Bloc.