Loyalty & Sacrifice | SHOGUN [1x8] (REACTION)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024
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Cody Doyle
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I am Japanese and I thought it was the best episode ever.
Toranaga and Hiromatsu's lines in the seppuku scene were the opposite of what they really meant. Even Toranaga's Eightfold Fence, which is more robust than anyone else's, could not fool only Hiromatsu. That is why I cried when Toranaga finally showed his true feelings to Mariko with his voice trembling and tears in his eyes. At first glance it looks like Toranaga did something cold and cruel, but it was really Hiromatsu who was cruel. He knew that Toranaga could not refuse his offer, and he himself said that he would commit seppuku. Just as Toranaga's spies are everywhere, so are Ishido's. And the letter he was reading just before Lady Ochiba visited Ishido was probably from a spy. Hiromatsu understood Toranaga's heart better than anyone else and chose to make sure the hidden plan was secure. In exchange for Hiromatsu's life, Toranaga's plan became solid. If Toranaga became Shogun as a result, then Hiromatsu's goal would be accomplished.
Couldn't agree more - The tea ceremony, the church and the teahouse and then the sacrifice of Hiromatsu - outstanding progression
As a fellow Japanese, I would like to say a few words: Toranaga is trying to keep Hiromatsu alive.
Seppuku together in Osaka = come with me to Osaka.
Of course, he is not going to commit seppuku because he wants to go to war in Osaka.
It seems to me that he is saying, "You don't have to commit seppuku, just join the war in Osaka."
Brilliant insight at all.
It might be very difficult to sense the truth from the dialogue for those who is not familiar with cultural background of Japan.
@@yiand3680 I agree.
Toranaga told Hiromatsu to sit next to him in Osaka and commit seppuku together.
In other words, you can read here that he shouldn't die.
Hmmm, I think that is a perfect interpretation.
It is nonsense to think in terms of the value of life today.
The year was 1600, during the Warring States Period, when it was life or death.
In order to protect their lord, their vassals, and their family and clansmen, they put on a great play to deceive their allies and gave their own lives.
The enemy was so powerful that he had to do so.
Yeah, wasn't expecting to cry, but the tears were flowing with Hiromatsu's death. It seems like he realizes, after he pledged to commit Seppuku, that Toranaga was still trying to fight, but went through with it anyways so his plan wouldn't fall apart. A legendary friend.
Toranaga HAD given up. If Hiromatsu didn’t offer to kill himself, Toranaga had no way to trick the Regents. He needed somebody to step up.
@@8ball279 I'm not entirely convinced of that. It seemed like Toranaga intended for his OTHER generals to die committing Seppuku, in order to pull off his ruse (since they had actually lost faith in him). Hiromatsu was unaware of this though, until they had their staredown moment, which by then it was already too late. This was how I interpreted it because afterwards Toranaga states to Mariko that Hiromatsu knew his duty well, basically saying his friend understood what he was dying for. That's how I took it at least.
@@8ball279 He didn't give up at all. Hiromatsu recognized the danger that Toranaga was in (in the book, his generals and son are on the edge of revolt), and he acted in the interests of Toranaga. They explained the mentality earlier. If you can choose the time of your death, on the battlefield or in the meeting, it is up to you. Hiromatsu was loyal to the end, and that is also why he tells/reminds Toranaga about death being in vain - this was the opposite of that.
Truth. If the audience for the show was expecting a trick, so was the enemy in Osaka. The surest way to take them completely off-guard was this very public dispute ending in the death of his oldest friend and confidant.
@@TheProfessorSenkuthe tipoff is when Hiromatsu says, "so you _do_ believe in pointless death." Toranaga had previously said Crimson Sky was "pointless death."
You’re looking at it from a very modern perspective. Leaving out their culture at the time of honour and duty, and of how they see death. Hiromatsu martyred himself in duty to his cause. It’s upsetting, absolutely, I have to admit I even teared up a little. Very tense scene, unlike many I’ve ever seen. This show truly is next level.
Yea you are completely right, for Hiromatsu it was a honour to sacrifice his life for toronaga, after all Hiramatsu died for his lord and best friend. When I saw that scene I was so sad and angry but now I think it was the best choice he made.
Bridget is right, your not understanding their relationship with death plus honor and duty. Torananga knew his son would be reckless, he didn't expect him to die, but he was ordered to commit seppeku anyway, so he was sentenced to death. You can think he selfish, but it's for his clan to survive and the realm, then I say be selfish. Hiromatsu, did what he did at his own accord, to convince the generals. Remember he questioned if he would be any good in battle anymore due to his age, the reason his son Buntaro must live, hate him or no, Buntaro is a great warrior, and will be needed.
I agree. Many westerners (especially Americans) don’t get the sacrifice because it looks so different to what they’re familiar with, and feel uncomfortable. However, it could be argued that the entire Christian religion is built on Jesus willingly dying on the cross for sins he didn’t commit just so every living person has the chance at eternal life. That’s pretty dark. Yet, it’s considered the ultimate act of love and sacrifice. (I’m not arguing religious beliefs)
There are countless stories, books, movies etc featuring the ultimate sacrifice of people going to certain death for the sole purpose of saving others / contributing to the downfall of an evil adversary. Think resistance movements to the NAZIs in ww2. Some were given orders that meant torture and death of their young families. They still did it though. And society lauds them as heros.
Toranaga sees the dire need for Japan to stop fighting amongst themselves where thousands upson thousands of people die in never ending feudal battles and schemes against each other. Especially since he understands the danger of not being unified as a nation with enemies like the Portuguese already actively engaged in and successful in “owning” and subjugating parts of Japan already.
His big picture is the future of Japan. He wants the minimum amount of blood shed. He is willing to sacrifice people he personally would least cope with losing if it means success of his mission with minimal blood lost. Is it such a hard concept for people to grasp? Is what/how Toranaga goes about uniting the country and stopping feudal wars that last generations not a mark of a leader who cares more than just his own riches, comfort and status?
It’s been a real eye opener for me to see how westerners (mostly Americans) seem to be so shocked that Toranaga would sacrifice his best friend (who he knows agrees with Toranaga about his future vision from decades of discussions together), allow an infant to be killed, etc vs staging wars where thousands more would surely die , and without coming any closer to a united Japan.
Toranaga didn't plan on having Hiromatsu killed, he was trying to steer him off that path several times during that conversation but Hiromatsu realized two things were about to happen if he didn't commit sepukku - Toranaga would have to kill at least one (likely several) of the dissenting generals to both maintain discipline and sell the ruse to any spies he surely had in his court AND he might've even faced open rebellion within his ranks (notice one of the generals was already reaching for his sword). Hiromatsu did what he felt he had to do to maintain the ruse and prevent the situation from escalating any further. He probably also felt responsible for accidentally giving the game away early after Toranaga sent the priest back to Osaka with a message.
Torunaga didn’t planned to kill Hiromatsu, he has never treated his close people as disposable. Torunaga needs to trick everyone into believing he’s weak and defeated, and Hiromatsu realized this after he offered to commit seppuku and questioned whether his lord believes in “pointless death”
Torunaga couldn’t stop him without taking away the facade from his generals, and Hiromatsu committed seppuku so he doesn’t screw Torunaga over since then they all will be dead anyways. The tragic part is Hiromatsu realized what was going on too late which is why he told his son to believe in their lord, and apologized before killing himself, so that the situation can be believable and his lords plan can continue.
I think this is the most logical explanation of what went down. The exchange was way too emotional to be planned, there's no way they wouldnt break character.
Toronaga says "I have made my decision. Now you must make yours", hoping he can convey his intentions to Hirumatsu without spelling them out. After a moment of silence and facing each other, Hirumatsu understands and decides to go through with it to cement Toronaga's decision. Toronaga quickly adapts and says that Hiromatsu needs to die for setting his mind against him, warning the other generals to not follow his protest.
Well explained
I’m glad someone else got it. I’m an Admirer of Tokugawa, and I like Toranaga’s portrayal here. But all the Toranaga worshippers tend to get tiresome after a while.
I’m just happy that they saw eye to eye and it seems some form of understanding passed between them in the end. Also, I think Hiromatsu also said “Gomen” as apology for telling Yabushige and the rest that Toranaga will fight after the priest left, in a public place where spies must be listening. He corrected that blunder by selling the “defeat” with the life of Toranaga’s best and closest advisor: himself.
@@khaii13 日本語を誤解している。Gomen＝御免はこの場合、死ぬことで家臣の役職を辞める際の礼儀・作法としての言葉。
Glad to see someone articulate this so well. In a show where words have serious weight and every gesture has importance, it's a shame to see so many misconstrue what's happening in some of these scenes. This show deserves all the praise and awards, and I will be savouring every last minute of it.
All for his lord.
For old friend
For the family.
For Japan.
He performed his duty with full knowledge of everything.
Self-sacrifice.
That was his duty.
He sacrificed both his loyalty and his life.
HIROMATU is truly a hero.
You don't understand their relationship with death.
Nah it was necessary for Hiromatsu to die there to 100 percent sell it
Talk about missing everything whilst watching it happening in front of you..
Because they are watching with a modern mindset, they don't understand about sacrificing for the greater good.
There is a famous Japanese proverb.
"To deceive your enemy, first start with your allies."
It is thought that Toranaga planned "Kouten" in accordance with this.
「目は口ほどにものを言う」ということわざもあります。切腹前の虎長と広松の目に全てがありました。
You gotta remember there’s spies everywhere even within the higher ranks with toranaga. He didn’t expect his best friend to be the one to fall on the sword he hoped it would be one of his generals if anyone.
I think no actual deaths were planned. As long as everyone agreed with Toranaga everything would work. But not if he SAID to them it was a trick. His son dying was not planned, he did not plan to slip and hit his head like an idiot. Hiromatsu dying was not planned. He did what he did to finish that conflict as soon as he saw the other guy about to draw his sword to attack. Toranaga wants his plan to work. But in order to work, it must be REAL.
Agree. Even if his generals were confident that Toranaga would not surrender, then Osaka would not have believed it either. That's why Hiromatsu had to die 😢
I think the trick was for the other generals and not for Hiromatsu. Hiromatsu was a well respected general and the other generals respected him, and Hiromatsu even cared for some of them, and so he spared them to commit seppuku as a highest form of protest, instead offered himself by challenging Toranaga's bluff but guy is so deep inside the abyss that he would not budge even if it pains him to see his best man go. The Bushido, the way of the samurai will never let them commit any dishonorable acts against their lord, but as a sign of protest they can offer themselves for seppuku which is always the honorable path. Also, any acts of dishonor may include cutting of fief, remember this service includes salary and land. They would never kill a person that feeds you and your entire clan.
And these guys fail to see it: a retainer was about to pick his sword. That situation needed to be deescalated. If Hiromatsu did not step in and made it between Him and Toranaga, younger able bodied retainers had to get killed instead to sell the defeat narrative. Which is why his last words to his son is to never lose faith in his lord even if it seems the Lord has lost faith in himself. That’s the best and only way he could tell Buntaro, in that moment, that the plan is on. That’s also why he was cruelly selected to second his own father.
And this isn’t even accounting for the spies that may be in toranaga’s ranks. Had any “plans” been spoken this whole facade would’ve been over and they would have lost before they could properly fight
Agreed. He's making the best of, and adapting his plan to his situation, but it's clear neither his sons nor Hiromatsu's death were what he planned.
Shoutout to the overlooked star of this episode: Omi-dono.
Sure he was a shit guy, conspired with his uncle to make a play for Ishido,manipulated Nagakado, and all the other shitty stuff he does.
But the way he spoke up in the midst of men to lament and toast Nagakado, the way that-despite his hands shaking-he still signed that pledge of allegiance, and how he acted out that part where he was almost about to piss himself crying when the whole Hiromatsu thing was going down. The boy does have potential. And I can’t believe I’m saying that.
Correct. Immaturity is potential. I predict that Omi-dono will survive and become the next generation of great vassals.
He has experienced it all. When wins Crimson Sky, he will understand that haste makes waste, loyalty must be viewed from a strategic perspective, selfishness is also good for survival, hiding one's true intentions is of the utmost importance, and foreign cultures can make a difference in one's fate.
These are all valuable lessons.
@@うめす-s9v wouldn’t it be great if he ends up being a vassal/retainer of Blackthorne, tho? 😆😆😆
I'll put it simply... the seppuku that occurred was to support the internal conflict of his friend Toranaga and at the same time save the 3 generals behind him... if he didn't do the seppuku everyone there would fall. a sacrifice in every dimension.
It was hiromatsu decision to kill himself to "show" the world how deeply commited with surrendering toranaga was. Also to demote other toranaga subordinates from trying to kill themselves as protest. cause if toranaga didnt yield at his best friend doing that, imagine how much impact the act of other people would have. Hiromatsu decision is in favor of toranaga, yes, but also in favor of fuji. and buntaro. He wants them to live, even if it costs him his own life. the way he says "then you believe in pointless death" showcase it perfectly. because toranaga don't believe in it, and hiromatsu death is all but pointless at that point. And of course, toranaga son death as not planned, it was merely an accident that gave toraraga the breather he needed.
Idk how you didn’t see the looks those two old friends gave each other in this last moments. They both understood what was happening and knew it had to be done so that they wouldn’t be wiped out by the corrupt people taking hold of the entire country. It wasn’t planned but it was necessary
Bro cant see the big picture😂 Hiromatsu had die to extra sell Toranaga "surrender". He knew what loalty truly is
Unlike merry modern people, the Japanese at that time faced life and death seriously every moment. They never spent the days enjoying parties.
His son dying alone clearly wasn't enough. They straight up showed us that with Lady Ochiba's conversation with Ishida before the marriage proposal.
As Japanese, I immediately understood what was between Hiromatsu and Toranaga. Hiromatsu has been knowing Toranaga since he was a child and serving for a long time. He knew what was in Toranaga's mind and what he should do. No actual explanation of the plan, but they knew what had to be done. In our culture, 'blank' means a lot. Blank on Japanese paintings, vague conversation without explanation, we read the messages in them.
I laughed at your anger at Tranaga, the same feeling I had when I first saw this episode! But if you look back at the details of the show, you will see various foreshadowing.
For example, in episode 4 when the meaning of "THE EIGHTFOLD FENCE" is discussed, Mariko says to John, "We grivre those we have lost by continuing their fight". You will also notice that in episode 5, when the gardener hides the Toranaga spy from the eyes of Yabushige under the "pretext" of touching John's rotting flesh, his actions are the same as those of Hiromatsu in this episode.
There are countless spies swarming around Toranaga. In addition, the Japanese have a concept of "use somebody's words to trip him up" (kotobajiri wo toraeru), which in the 1600s meant that once you misspoke, you were open to attack by your opponents for it.
In this episode, when Toranaga's men protested what could be considered insulting, Hiromatsu raised his voice and took the lead in the protest because he thought he was the most effective pawn to avoid having to order his men, who were still able to fight, to commit seppuku and to catch the enemy off guard. Tranaga is very upset. This is evident in Hiroyuki Sanada's eye performance.
Sorry for being so long! I look forward to your reactions from Japan!
Hiromatsu's death had purpose, and that's what it's all about, no?
The acting in this show is superb. Subtle and so much unsaid. Amazing.
Toranaga gave a church site next to the brothel area.
This means not allowing the construction of a church from the beginning.
Hiramatsu's seppuku is not begging for his life, but a plea in exchange for his life.
Loyalty refers to vassals like Hiramatsu.
The emotions of this episode are also felt by Japanese people.
The content was quite risqué, difficult to understand, deep, and interesting.
Buntaro got denied death from his wife and father the same day. He is the true victim of this episode 😅
im going to war with buntaros side he definitely getting a hella kill streak with that anger💀
You gotta know that Toranaga did not ask or make Hiromatsu do what he did. They nevr spoke about it. Hiromatsu knows him so well (they are so in sync) that he read between the lines during that meeting with the priest. People tend to dismiss the fact that Hiromatsu was also incredibly smart and strategic and everything he does and says has a meaning. Also remember that it was Hiromatsu and other advisors that pushed for Toranaga to overthrow Ishido and become shogun. So it makes sense that he would do whatever it took to see that vision realised. Anyway, balled my eyes out in this one.
Hiromatsu committed seppuku was totally unpredictable.
It must be hard to accept for viewers.
It won’t be neccesarry but from writer’s perspective it is inevitable to make the show dramatically. And It works perfectly as expected. Your being emotional is the proof. ;-)
All the viewers of this video are smart and I'm impressed lol
I was worried people would be agreeing with them and wouldn’t see the big picture. Even as I watched the episode I knew toranaga was cooking up something
I think people think the plan is about saving himself. This plan is about saving all of Japan.
ん〜。外国人にヒロマツの切腹の意味や重さは理解できないだろうね〜😢 深い内容だった😮
Of course you don't care, you're just a sheep and not a shogun (shepherd) who thinks about the whole thing and does everything to save it.
It is hard to wrap our minds around these deaths. But as Mariko explained to Blackthorn once, they live with death. They are on ground that can collapse beneath their feet, and among hills that swallow villages. If death is something you learn to expect at any moment, then giving your life to help your bestie trick his enemies is probably easier than we imagine.
I thought him dying for the greater purpose toranaga is trying to achieve was an epic story line, he is old, his best advisor and him dying in that manner would trick the enemy into thinking his defeat is total. The thing I want to know is.... Did hiromatsu know about it? Or did toranaga know him so well that he knew what he would do. I like to think he knew due to him telling his son to more or less stick with his lord. I love this show as its always moving forward and always has incredible dialogue.
Toranaga had not planned Hiromatsu's death. Hiromatsu himself chose to die for the sake of his lord and the greater good.
It surprised me that Omi really cared about Nagakado. He's crying for Nagakado.
People tend to forget that people culturally think different ways and are enjoyed doing different things. Hiromatsu was an old man set in his ways and there was probably nothing that gave him more satisfaction in his life especially at this point in time than to give it for his old friend in search of a bigger cause than himself. He served his lord faithfully and without question. Your perspective is a very modern one, and a humane one, but that isn't the case in this point in time in this era especially in a place where Ishido is a tyrant. So giving your life for a cause that you believe in is sometimes the greatest thing you can do your life and some people will be overjoyed doing it. Especially this late in his life, he probably did not have much further to live anyway.
I think Lady Ochiba loved her but she just went back behind her 8 fold fence and that was what you saw.
The actor that played Hiromatsu, Tokuma Nishioka, said he felt that Hiromatsu had to die, because he sacrificed himself not just for Toronaga’s plans, but for the other generals so that they would not be backed into a corner where they felt they had to commit seppuku. I think Toronaga thought one or more of the other generals would kill themselves, but he didn’t count on Hiromatsu doing it, but once Hiromatsu spoke up there was no going back. Nishioka said that scene was one of the main reasons he took the job. It’s so heartbreaking. 😢
I don't think Torunaga planned to kill Hiromatsu, i think it was simply unspoken thing they came to understand, what needs to be done to have Toranaga get the victory, ot atleast a big chance.
When Toranaga sent priest to Osaka to tell the news, Hiromatsu already knew Toranaga wouldn't surrender, and considering he's been by his side so many years, he knew that by commiting sepuku and giving Toranaga the ultimatum, he would give Toranaga best chance to strike, considering the spies would tell how Taranaga even sacrificed hi's oldest friends to give up, rather than go and fight. It's was a really wise and strategic move, and they simply know each other so well, they didn't even have to talk about it, they simply knew what roles they had to play during the moment.
The part when Hiromatsu asked you believe in ''pointless death'' was reference to a crimson sky, or atleast i think it was, considering how they speak in riddles, that's what i think.
I don't think Hiromatsu realised only after his seppuku offer, he knew him from a piss boy years, and he knew how he was, he played the part in helping him get the victory and became a sacrifice to convince everyone he's actually surendering, so his men and the spies, would think he's done.
The amount of cold nerves and strategy Toranaga demonstrates is really high, hi's really high in Intelect, and Hiromatsu knew his role well, as Toranaga said.
Not many people could sacrifice their close ones for the greater good, requires a lot of mental toughness. Great episode, can't wait for the next one.
As for you being stressed and pissed, makes sense, that doesn't take away that's a really smart and strategic way to aproach the sitution, if you actually want to take Osaka.
This guy just doesn’t understand…
What was the only wish of Hiromatsu and Nagakado? We must understand that. And one more thing, you should know the elementary fact that a SAMURAI《侍》 is a person who stays close to a nobleman and waits for his orders. Episode 8 was the best of the best.
I love and hate this episode because I was wrecked! This show has been phenomenal.
I don’t expect westerners to understand Hiromatsu’s death (I was born and raised in Japan), but this is absolute peak feudal Japan. Hollywood likes to use the western ideals for honor and loyalty when producing Japanese film to make it more relatable to a western audience. This is the raw reality of what the honor code was in feudal Japan. Your honor was literally worth more than your life.
I love the debate Toranagas decision made. I honestly don’t know his plan but whatever it is he couldn’t let anyone know… except Marika
There is a proverb in Mr. Son's military tactics that says, ``Before deceiving your enemy, first deceive your allies,'' and the death of his son (who did not even attend his funeral) and seppuku of a senior vassal were all part of this. His senior ministers saw through his plan that he had no intention of going against Osaka, and made his plan a success with his own death.
man, i was literally screaming at my screen for someone to stop that seppuku
BridgeCat is so cute! 🐱👍😁
Cody's anger is understandable. Many reactors felt the same. However Toranaga, who is kniwn for his trickery, and had used trickery to escape Osaka mere weeks earlier, had to convince EVERYONE that he gave up. He had to convince his men, including those spying for Ishido, that Toranaga had surrendered. Remember the escape from Osaka was only saved by Anjin because no one else in the caravan knew he had swapped places. He is the personification of keeping things close to the chest.
Hiromatsu committing seppuku after telling the men Toranaga was going to fight clinches the idea he gave up. More importantly it clinches it with Ishido. Ishido is wary of a trick. It's one thing to leave family and friends in harm's way, like escaping Osaka's castle, but another to let them unalive themselves.
Besides, Toranaga can't have his men going into Osaka spoiling for a fight and jumping the guy did in the pilot episode.
15:20 This way he gets to expel the Christians without actually expressing it. He knows the courtesans are more willing to build near a church than the priest is to build near a "tea house".
15:13 I laughed WAY too hard when he realized who they were.
Hiromatsu sealed his fate when he left that room and told everyone that he was ready to fight because that's the only reason he would send the priest to Osaka. Hiro didn't know this until the moment of truth when he looked at Toronaga, which is why he told his son don't abandon him when it "Appears" that the lord doesn't believe in himself. Not the lord doesn't believe in himself. Very careful wording. Toronaga was 100% being reactive, and when his son died he used it. Same with Hiro. He's smart but, he's not a magician, he needed to make horrible decisions to make it work, and whatever his plan is requires EVERYONE to believe he's admitted defeat.
"There's 6 of us left (out of 12), barely hanging on"
"You look like you're having a fine old time"
The plan was to convinced Ozaka to make them belive that he's really surrendering so Hiromatsu sacrifice hiiself and put a great Performance. Remember Couple episode ago it was brought up that a Samurai also have to learn how to act and perform
I think the trick was for the other generals and not for Hiromatsu. Hiromatsu was a well respected general and the other generals respected him, and Hiromatsu even cared for some of them, and so he spared them from committing seppuku as a highest form of protest, instead offered himself by challenging Toranaga's bluff but guy is so deep inside the abyss that he would not budge even if it pains him to see his best man go. The Bushido, the way of the samurai will never let them commit any dishonorable acts against their lord, but as a sign of protest they can offer themselves for seppuku which is always the honorable path. Also, any acts of dishonor may include cutting of fief, remember this service includes salary and land. They would never kill a person that feeds you and your entire clan.
Brutal… but that’s why the lady in the first episode said Japan doesn’t need good men, they need a Shogun.
You were given a foreshadowing of the mentality earlier. If you can choose the timing of your death, be it on the battlefield or at a critical meeting like this, Hiromatsu chose. In the book, Toranaga's generals and oldest son/heir (not Naga by the way) are on the edge of revolt. Hiromatsu sees this clearly, and brings the attention back on himself and Toranaga. Like in any great stratagem, you must be willing to sacrifice pieces on the table. Some losses are unexpected (like Naga acting on his own), some are predicted and placed (Hiromatsu), if you had an issue with this mentality, you are in for even more clarity in the episodes to come - if they follow the books.
"Hes going to fight" all the men expected him to act
FRAME BY FRAME before he got his head chopped off they cut to toranada And u clearly see him be shocked it actually happend. PEOPLE saying a different story is because u all listen to podcast and read comments like gtfo, The plan was not for him to die he litterally made seppuku and now toranaga just had to go along and be like, well i had time because my som died Buuut also my friend now, the friend litterally didnt need to die, but then again it's a show it's plus when u can shock people and keep them interested
The show runner said that Toranaga did not intend or want Hiromatsu to commit seppuku. He was expecting the generals to do that and Hiromatsu took their place. He didnt know of Toranaga’s plan… but he knew that his death would be much more meaningful… either to wake Toranaga up (if his surrender wasn’t an act) or convince Osaka (if it was an act)
It’s all part of a plan. His son did the rash thing he always did, but failed to kill the traitor brother. The old guy knew what was needed and knew he would die anyway so jumped the knife early to give Big T some camouflage for his strike.
Y’all working overtime cranking this one out so quick!
Torinaga is buying time they need to make excuses and make it real to osakas eye to delay ishidos plan the main plan is attack the osaka in the inside and take the title shogun
If Game of Thrones was book accurate, you guys would've hated Dany, Tyrion, and Jon Snow lmao
Lealdade Vai por uma causa e não à nossa pequena pessoa, essa é uma lição de vida.
Yes. Toranaga has set aside all personal feelings and is fighting to protect Japan. Toranaga and Hiromatsu are allies who understand each other to the core. Toranaga had to accept Hiromatsu's will and make a painful decision to win the battle. To repay the sacrifices of his son and allies, Toranaga cannot allow himself to lose.
I think Hiromatsu just knew what Toranaga really wanted. Toranaga may have surrendered or fought, but isn't it because Hiromatsu read Toranaga's true feelings and led him to fight? That's why he is a loyalist. he reads his master's intentions and does not simply follow his orders, but leads him as he wants.
The moment Hiromatsu put seppuku vs. surrender on the scale, Toranaga had no choice. If he trys to save Hiromatsu, he will not be able to deceive Osaka and will have to go to war with inferior power, and Yabushige's participation in the war will also become uncertain. Mariko's role is probably to lead Yabushige into war.
Just proves that if Torunaga is gonna play he's gonna make sure it's on his court regardless the cost.
10:59 - Hard to judge him for "sucking a lot" when he loved and was married 15ish years to a woman who loathed him.
Hold up though, he said, what we doing here? That expression is sooo typical. Don’t come to the conclusion if you can’t see the bigger picture.
Toranaga is playing chess. Everyone else is playing checkers.
Hiromstsus death wasn’t a play to get them to team up I feel although it was a two birds with one stone thing the bigger picture is making his enemies think he’s defeated that was a huge power play you gotta think broader man
Everyone here acting like they're book experts just because some other TH-cam comment has the in-depth version of the story and they've read a comment and took the high ground is crazy
I felt the same way, until i read a comment saying "it was necessary because even us the viewers didn't believe Toranaga".
The moment his most loyal servant was allowed to commit seppuku, everyone felt like Toranaga's belief was real now.
At least until 5 minutes later where he reveals its not 🤣🤣
None of that “it’s not you, it’s me” crap for Mariko. “It’s all you.”
You have to understand that samurais honor their duties above all else. More than their families and their own lives. Hiromatsu knows he had to die.
❤ DO KILLERS OF 🌸 FLOWER MOON ! PLEASE
Yeah there's a lot you're misunderstanding but it's funny because you still arrive at the correct and sane conclusion, which is that feudalism is fucking barbaric. The comments here pulling the whole cultural relativism bullshit are nuts. Culture explains WHY something is but it doesn't excuse things, there are tons of cultural practices that are straight up immoral.
I know that feudal costume from different country can feel uneasy to modern people, but this is what we called a "world building."
Cody: I would love some "chá". You sir have spoken portuguese better than anyone on that show. 😂
People looking for the Hollywood ending when this is 17th century Japan and based on real events. That said, their ethos on death and duty is not intuitive, even for the modern Japanese.
Reminder Chucky comes on tonight!!
Just got done watching the new episode of Chucky I can't wait to see you two react to it
Dude this show commits.
You would never win a war. You don't think of the long game.
Fuck man, this episode destroyed me. The meanings behind all of these deaths was to make sure Toronaga-sama continues to fight. So upset.
If you listen to the music composed by Atticus Ross for this episode it's very Nine Inch Nails like.
Sorry dude. Coming from this ancestry from both Kumamoto and Hiroshima...old Japan wasn't happy and Pollyanna-ish.
Both awesome cities...and besides the point of your comment, but had to say that.
教会を建てる予定の土地を見に来た宣教師が、遊女たちが近隣に来る予定と聴いて、
嫌な表情をしたのは何故でしょうか？
This show is too deep for this mcdonalds americans
Back for a second viewing of this reaction. I wonder which scene I'ma-skippin' to.
一見無意味に見えるが実は無意味では無い死があった。神風特攻隊を作った文化は敗戦で全て無くなった。残念だ。
Sad for you bro. Toranaga letting Hiromatsu commit seppuku is not bull$hit. It was essential and critical for the plan to work. You just don't get it. Kinda disappointed in your reaction but it is what it is.
It’s import to consider how a belief in reincarnation would affect people’s / a society’s attitudes toward life and death. Death is no different from birth. It’s just a process every soul goes through of learning and accumulating wisdom so that will end with enlightenment.
I was disappointed by your very narrow minded and judgemental and very biased views on what happens in this episode.
So many resistance fighters and spies in Europe during ww2 had to do similar things to what happened in this episode. Sacrificing and even ordering family, friends to death. Sometimes people would have had to pretend not to care about their loved ones getting caught, tortured or killed. Thy had to sell a story to the enemy in order to have a chance at winning. The same thing is happening here.
After losing his son, I honestly don't think any other sacrifice would have been meaningful enough to sell everyone on his "defeat."
the real hiromatsu died much better and with a much clearer purpose
The kid was ordered to commit seppuku, so even if he didn't slip, he was dead anyway.
I will die on this hill and I know I would get a lot of flak for this given that I have a male portrait:
I love that Mariko declined Buntaro's offer for a mutual suicide in the tea house scene. How she went about it and her choice of words, not so much. lets break it down.
1. From the flashback on episode 6, we can glimpse that Buntaro had always longed for Mariko. Mariko, on the other hand never really liked him, or even looked down on the Toda clan back then (confirmed by her saying to Ruri-hime that the Toda clan is a worthless alliance and that his father is casting her aside; and later to Toranaga that his father should have married him better)
2. We learn from the Toranaga couple's councelor arc that Buntaro did try ti aooease her but her icy demeanor never melted. And that he had to bear double insult of Sparing the life of a traitor's daughter; who later converted to Catholicism. double whammy right there.
3. then Toranaga revealed that, in fact, distancing her from the fight and marrying her off to someone who ensured she lives was part of her father's plan... BUT, come episode 7, she requests Toranaga to allow her to end her life.
we are coming from all that build up before the tea-house scene. so you can see a great deal of inconsistency in her character. it's either that or she is being consciously spiteful and saying the most hateful and vile thing that she knows will break his husband at this point. AND IT MAKES NO SENSE UNLESS THE PLAN WAS TO MAKE MARIKO SO DISLIKEABLE. and then to go around later and tell blackthorn that "when loyalty starts it has no end otherwise it is not loyalty", I call hypocrite. Just the previous episode, you asked for death from Toranaga who revealed to you your own father's grand design (a betrayal of your duty to your father and then to your Lord), then a scene before you rejected joining your husband in a seppuku of protest (a betrayal of your marriage); you really are in no position to berate and/or remind Blackthorne about the importance of loyalty.
Now, let me throw an olive branch and suggest how to better handle the scene (I am no writer so this is rudimentary but would make more narrative sense and progress Mariko's arc in a more positive way). "When we were a younger couple I resented you for the wrong reasons (this works as a good opening statement as it is an admission also of her misreading the great plans his father for her); and I know i have caused you great suffering by repeatedly asking you to let me die all this years (this shows accountability); BUT I have always respected Buntaro, the great warrior. What you are saying now dishonour's your father who have said earlier that he Believes Toranaga will fight. It dishonours our Lord whom you also doubt. And you dishonour yourself. I would sooner live a thousand years than die in this manner which you suggest"
Again, I am no writer and this is just a rudimentary thing, but I think this would have rounded her character more and would connect with her entire arc from the beginning (where we have been told that she did indeed want to die for she thought that was her duty then) to the present with every new information revealed to her giving her that change in perspective. I especially hate the fact that she did the right thing by rejecting his offer for death, and they use that as an excuse to give Mariko the right to act so vile, petty, and cruel.
And before anyone types the Usual Butthurt crap: NO, that does not mean that Buntaro's previous actions were excusable. Of course it is wrong for her to lay hands on her wife. And if he can show such effort in something as delicate and meticulous as the tea ceremony, he should have tried to communicate better with her wife instead of being this clumsy around her as we saw on screen. BUT. Nonetheless. It does not justify what she did to him here.
hiromatsu death and all are a setup. all was intentional and planned.
That's wrong.
ピカチュウ
I know how crazy the "loyalty" at the era, but Hiromatsu HAD to die sadly
plz watch severance
Toranaga vs Dutch (RDR2) for plans lol. Definitely huge win for Toranaga 😂