How is the ride with the motor shut off riding only pedals? Because the point of e-bike is to pedal without the motor at straight trail and to turn on and use the motor at hills more. And the battery can be used longer in a day 👍🏻
The fact that the range matches with Bosch, Brose and Yamaha makes the Pinion gearbox clearly the best option. Went through 3 derailleurs and 3 hangers last year. This year went through a derailleur, 2 hangers so far. Friend 1 destroyed 1 derailleur, 2 hangers this year. Friend 2 destroyed a derailluer, a stack and a hanger and had the shifting cables swtiched out as well. So much trouble, money, wasted time and ruined rides.
Thanks mate! Honestly I was so busy in the 4 days there was so many more things I wanted to add like you just said so thanks for adding them! And for the range tests they are not fun but very needed I feel! Thanks for the kind words
Totally agree, the derailleur concept is from the steam age, this industry needs to move on especially the money we have the privilege of paying for these bikes
I’m spoiled with my BBSHD hardtail with a 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub...and a throttle. You can spend however much you want, and you will never get uphill as fast with less effort. I only have to pedal,assist the motor, on the very steepest sections and maintain like around 10 mph. Plus I’ve got PNW Coast dropper with suspension. Nice for sections you can remain 9:16 seated for a little rest, or on the road. My local trails, which I’m doomed to ride, no transportation, do not need a FS bike. After 5 of them, I went back to a hardtail 15 years ago. That should date me, I’m 71 now, and more than a little lazy.
First to the tube with a pinion gearbox review. Loved how honest it was. Great bike to just get on and ride. If you don’t maintain your own bike it will also save you a fortune. Looking forward to your Bosch SX review as well. Keep up the great reviews!
Looked your video twice. Thanks for the work. Especially the Range test! Like your honest style! I tested the MGU by my self. And i am in with a Bulls Vuca Evo AM2 in pre order. Best buy for money i think. I also like the Rotwild and the Simplon very much.
I have been saying that I will be getting an ebike when they evolve into a more refined version. Integrating the motor and gearbox seems like they are finally there! I would love to try a long travel enduro version with a belt drive.
Same for me!! Only waiting for an enduro with super good rear suspension and maybe lighter and more powerful battery and then, I'll make the switch! :)
Think of the pinion gearbox as a 4 speed with a triple chainring. From 4th to 5th the clunk is coming from the 1st Chainring changing to the 2nd, and likewise 8th to 9th is when the 2nd chaining moves to the 3rd. In those two instances there’s a lot happening in the gearbox. I’m lucky enough to have pre ordered the Simplon Rapcon with this system, including the belt drive as well as the auto shift, which I understand is well refined now. Pinion are going to want this to be bang on right from the start. There’s a lot riding on this, pun intended. 1st batch arriving in the UK late January. Can’t wait
Great review!! I definitely fell into the 50ish% that is remiss on maintenance. I hope in future bikes there is a belt option. For me, that is the perfect setup!!
I fall into the meticulous with maintenance category but I don’t want the hassle unless necessary. Anything that reduces maintenance time and cost is a win for me .
The klonk is just from the gears, the are moduls or planets. You can hear that as well on a ordinary gearbox without motor. I got a trekking bike with C1.12 and I love it. My next one will be with E.12 and also gates belt.
Sorry, Pinion sind nicht die ersten, die Motor und Getriebe in einem Serien-E-Bike kombiniert haben. Das war Continental mit der integrierten stufenlosen NuVinci. Leider hatte diese Qualitätsprobleme und Continental hat sich später komplett aus dem E-Bikemarkt zurückgezogen. Davon abgesehen ist Pinion technisch super entwickelt und umgesetzt. Befürchte nur, dass die Räder für Normalverdiener viel zu teuer sind.
3:04 it a shame you can't change to a bigger chain ring if for urban or faster rides. 13:30 can you actively switch off motor assist and become a normal bike? e.g. down hill pedaling doesn't need motor assist. Did Pinion solve the 'engagement angle' problem? Please compare Gold standard Rohloff, I'm not a fan with large 'gear steps'.
Great review and super interesting tech. I’m still happy with my Turbo Levo Comp, however I suspect this will be the last traditional ebike I’ll own. 960w battery is definitely the way to go. A 65 degree head angle and a 160mm forks and it would be spot on.
It’s 10k for a 9 speed. For comparisons sake an Cube stereo similar specs with an Bosch CX is 4K-5k That’s a lot of chains/casettes. If you keep it 11 speed linkglide you can get 3000km easy for 150 ish in parts. That is pessimistic 30 of those is easy 100k before breakeven. And let’s be honest a single speed chain can’t make 100k either. Nor does a belt nor the battery or Motor. So cost wise it will never pay for itself.
Absolutely love the benefits of a gearbox. I think if they can keep refining it and making it better it could be the future. I would absolutely consider a gear box bike.
I really want one of these. No more cassete and chain change every year. The future is now! Thanks for you honest oPinion on this Sam. Regards from Brazil
I believe this is the future of e-mtb because I have been riding e-mtb for last 2 years and I have weared many smallest 11t cogs with 38t front chainring and only 70 Nm motor.
Rohloff E14 is Noisy in Some Gears and Can Jump When Changing,Having had one I Did Not Like the Weight in the Back Wheel,So if this Gets Better over the Next Couple of Years it Will be a Winner in my View,I Did Not Realize Chain Was Better than a Belt ,I Have Had a Rethink After Watching again and I Changed my View As Well As The Belt Drive Needs Massive Tension on it to Work and Causes Drag When Not Using Motor,So Chain does Not ,And As its Not Moving From side to side Only in Line it should Last a Long Time If its Looked After.
The chain is a bit more efficient than a belt, is easier to repair and because the chain is not doing shifting duties, it will last a whole lot longer. There's pros and cons for the belt VS chain, just depends what's important to you.
Chains are only more efficient when perfectly clean and lubed. Otherwise belts are. On ebikes belts are a no brainer anyways, no derailleur to tear off or bend, no chain that gets rusty or loses performance in adverse conditions.
With no derailleur, how do the chain, front and rear sprockets wear in comparison? Would like to see a longer test with little or no chain maintenance.
I still don't understand how you give a review, stay on point better than most reviews and ride at the same time. If I even let my thoughts slide on a downhill I'm in the trees. I'm a bit upset to see the chain but the reason totally makes sense.
Awesome tech at last getting rid of that derailer, obviously 10k put it out of reach for most of us right now but I hope it catches on and cheaper options come out
Overall great review! Been waiting for this from the SF, CA usa area with great anticipation! For older folks(im 51) who have ridden Sturmey Archer planetary gear systems we know there is going to be a brief lag with certain gears which I believe is just inherent with the planetary gear system. One other big side benifit of this single cog system in the rear would be the ability to reduce or eliminate rear wheel dish which will make a stroger more stable rear wheel which is great for durability. Can't wait for a test ride myself to experience what you are saying about the 2 gear change "issues" between particullary 4&5. Did you say in your review that the shifting has a delay going into lower or higher gears? I didn’t quite catch what you were saying about that in the video. Thx again for the review😜🚵♂️
Yes, it could have and should have happened many years ago BUT there is one thing missing from this timely leap forward. A regenerative braking system in the motor. When they come out with that and the rubber belt drive I will get one. It will only require a clutch mechanism to disengage the pedals et Voila !
Re leasing in Germany, I can confirm that keys for the battery are not a requirement, at least not with the company I leased my Levo from. For any readers in Germany, leasing is well worth looking at if your company is willing to do a little bit of paperwork.
Thank you Sam for this really nice and informative "real world" Test on the trails. Personally I never think to get an Ebike, because of the normal SRAM, Shimano Shifting Technology. I drive since 2012 Pinion on my MTBs and my opinion is: never go back to a classic shifting bike, because of the No-Mainantance approach and the plus to shift in the stand without move. I never had/have problems (with chain and Gates version) in the Winter. So for Ebikes I would say Pinion MGU is the game changer like 11 years ago the gearbox P1.18 was. The one real problem I see here is the price of the bikes, which come into a region of an KTM of Husqvarna Enduro or SM. But Ebike you can driver everywhere... P.s. the clunk in 2 gears comes from the 2nd shaft. You have the gears distributed to 2 shafts. 3 wheels on the2nd shaft the rest on the first. When you shift to the 6 or 12 gear (for P1.18 with 18 gears) you shift to the first cogwheel on the first shaft and in the same step into the 2nd cog wheel on the 2nd shaft. Then for the next gears you just shift on the next cogwheel on the first shaft, until you change again in gear 12 (for P1.18). That is also the reason why you feel the change and cannot have full force on the pedals for some milli seconds. But on the trail it is just a short time where you noticed it, then you just use it. For E1.12 I don't know it Pinion is using 2 or 3 cogs on the 2nd shaft....maybe they will explain it in a video somewhere.
It's a great review, but I'd like to know a little bit more, if possible: What was your average power while doing the extreme range test, does the computer keep track of that?
I don't think the pros on that system are only about zero maintenance, the fact that you can shift gears without pedaling is a game changer, especially on climbs, the choice about the chain in my opinion is a cons, but the rear suspension must be designed ad hoc to be used with belt, in terms of reliability a belt lasts 30k km not far comparable with a chain that in the most optimistic ways can last 4k on a ebike with singlespeed setup... the noise is not a problem considering the advantages this motor can give and the range is really good. We have to see how this motor will develop and improve and the same for the Rotwild that's still a prototype, but in my opinion that's the future.
@SamsBikes you're welcome I always follow your videos 😉 I suggest you to make a comparison between a traditional transmission and a gearbox in shifting under load conditions with high assistance, on regular transmissions is not even possible to do that, new T type sram groupsets works better but I think is not comparable with pinion, at least after seen the tests. Anyway let's hope many brands will support this new tech, we need that. 🙏
I wish it was quieter, but def not a game changer. I think they did a good job…4 kilo with a gear box?! Awesome sauce! The future is looking good people!! I would want a belt instead of the chain, maybe shorter crank arms to combat the stretch/delay?! Awesome job as ALWAYS Sam.
maybe this system is the gamechanger,but 2 big ones dont like the idea of not selling milllions of rearmags,k7,chains etc. -greetings from sunny Algarve
I tried the flyer up a steep hill and I found the gear changes 4 and 8 disconcerting plus that dead feel just after the change as you experienced. I really wanted to love this MGU but I am now wondering if it can be improved or I just take on the more powerful sachs RS from NOX and live with the chain and derailleur. Ummm wake up pinion and sort it out (maybe easier said than done.)
@@SamsBikes I think one of the ways this transpired is pinion have been supplying their gearboxes for a decade and nobody complained but they did not factor in that their products where being powered by weedy humans not a powerful motor. Add a motor into the mix and present that to ebike users and new to the market customers enticed by the clean belt and enclosed gearbox. then the complaints come thick fast and loud. Fantastic that they are trying though looking forward for gen sorted.
I am not a MTBer, but i want this system for a recumbent trike....when are they going to make it available??? Sounds like you need to relieve pressure when changing 4th to 5th gears...
Very Intriguing. I'm 2 seasons away from a new whip ( I ride a Giant Trance e+1 now) and I'll be looking for something similar to this in the USA. ? does it have the walk mode like many other eMTB motors have?
Only have one question, Why does it have a chain? I think suspension has chain grow or something in it that just doesn’t work with the belt and tensioner they had before
Why would they put the chain tensioner in the back like a derailleur? Put it next to the bottom bracket/motor/gearbox, and point the tensioner up. Better rollover clearance. Lower weight in the rear. Less chance of mangling the tensioner.
Did you weigh the bike yourself? Would be interested to know what that configuration weighed. Really great review Sam. I was very much looking forward to it and you delivered in spades! Great review!
960Wh is great because you can do almost a 4 hour FTP endurance ride with it. 750Wh on a Bosch with xc rear tire lasts almost 70km. I'm assuming Pinion is similar battery performance.
@@SamsBikes Had not watched the video when I commented. This makes practically certain I'm buying a Pinion next year. No way I'm using a derailleur anymore. Tend to only ride on full power. Only use other modes when I have to extend the range. With endurance FTP rides I aim to just get it over the limiter whenever I can and then keep it there as long as reasonable. Usually around 180-220watts on fairly even to keep the bike going over. It's not optimal for training but I just can't do 3hour+ asfalt rides. I need some trails. The bigger batteries will solve this problem. Well you could just lower the assistance but it's boring crawling along. The fun of ebikes is that everything becomes fun. Use to dread losing altitude on roads wasting it. But on ebikes it's just fun to train cornering.
Looking at the numbers on range test the Bosch system is still bit more efficient. We get approximately 2000m of elevation in our local trail center on 750wh battery on our heavier Pole Voimas. The climb is more technical and steeper than the one used for the test on this video.
The controller looks as bad as the Bosch old Star ship enterprise one why didn't Pinion go for one integrated into the top tube and a small optional one for the handle bars for the cost of the system it's interface should look more premium, that control looks cheap and not very functional with the buttons on the top , hope they sort it for gen 2 , great review Sam as always
They are using batteries and controllers by a supplier (FIT), rather than producing their own ones. There are 2-3 different ones the bike manufacturers can choose, but this one really looks very clunky!
Sam, do you know if this gearbox motor will able to be fitted to say, existing ebike setups with a bosch motor etc? They look so similar and I think it would be a good way to go for the box. Do you also know if this is going to be just on 1 or 2 brands of bike rather than across the field? Cheers. Good video.
Very informative video. Thanks so much for posting! I have the SRAM XX1 Eagle AXS system on my Levo and it's great when it works but like you said, it is often a bit out of adjustment or sluggish. Wondering if the new SRAM Transmission derailleur is better. I feel like internal transmissions are the future for electric mountain bikes, but based on your review I am not going to get in a rush to buy one.
Have you ever smashed your derailleur during the ride? The pinion gearbox is no brainer for me. After I smashed 3derailleursr at a cost of 400$ - 800$, pinion is a blessing for me :D
The noise would not be from the motor but the gearbox under strain, to be quieter the gear teeth need to change rather than flat, more chevron shaped or at a angle depending how the transfer from one gear to another, to gradually put load on the gear teeth, especially at low gears under load from the motor.
That motor and battery setup looks like it could accomodate a laid down shock and linkage setup. Gimme that and some R&D longevity testing on the motor, 160mm and 29er front and rear and i'm down.
The hype over this is off the charts but expect it will be several years before all the bugs are worked out. In the meantime I love the new SRAM drivetrain
I think it’s a very interesting system but Maybe not there yet for a performance ebike but there are so many benefits. The new sram system is very cool as well
The Sram Sytem is built around a poor brose engine. It will take several years or at least until the new brose peak will hit the market...until this system will be as reliable as we expect 😉 meanwhile i give pinion a chance!
Well, Done...PINION would be more marketable if they paired with a frame manufacturer that will appeal to the former XC riders looking for a maintenance-free short travel sub-15 kg rider.
Couple of questions and a comment, this is a bit personal but approx how much do you weigh? I ride with a bunch of mates with the same motor/battery and some of us get much more range than others simply because of size. Also, have had a Zerode with the Pinion gear box which I love, they recommend changing the gear box oil once every 12 months, is this the same for the E1.12 and is it a DIY job or do you need a bike shop job. Finally, not sure I agree with Rotwild on the chain v belt thing, I understand Zerode are looking at a belt option and they've been doing Pinion for a long time. Thanks in advance
clunking gears doesn't mean anything if the gear changes are perfect every time. you are used to a bike sounding a certain way and are comparing something new to something you are used to, and making an observation it is somehow wrong. you didn't mention you experienced missed shifts, or grinding/slipping in the gearbox. my pinion 12 speed (manual) gearbox has positive clunks when gears engage, and i think it sounds cool. i agree with the less weight on the back wheel improves the bike handling, i have a zerode katipo with a pinion 9sp. gearbox and it rides really well. + agree with your points about total cost of ownership and maintenance.
@@SamsBikes You could just make a separate video about the shifting performance because it's a question many people have. Just was having a conversation about the Pinion on a forum where your video was linked. There really isn't info available. You are the primary source of it.
12 grand for this is a bit on the expensive side. I would love to see the price to come down and compete with Bosch. Perhaps can benefit from further revisions and refinements like the bosch system did over the years
Was really looking forward to this one! Great job on a totally honest review. I don't think id be put off by the clunk on changes. It seemed very quiet on the descents.....no motor chatter like the ep8? That would be a real plus. Belt drive requires a break in the rear triangular right? Although a belt is appealing on maintenance a tried and trusted chain may be better - very few motorcycles run belts either. Head angle a bit steep? A 180 zeb would slacken that nicely! Still, if i can get one im in.....
So after battery is drained and 2 hours of riding i cant use the bike anymore to change gears... That is looking like dealbraker... I am gone for weekend and i have 5 hours availible to me ? hard pass..What about you ?
Gearboxes- It’s going to be a $$$$$- end option for the next few years no matter what. The motor gearbox combo is the inevitable destination of ebike evolution
They still make the common fault of putting the charge port where it gets in the way of the pedal cranks as these bikes need charging so if your looking after the chain or cassette indexing you have to unplug so that's time lost of charging time which takes 5 hours so indexing and preping chain that's time lost. The motor looks very good and ground clearance is good without a big overhang which is a pain on ebikes on roots etc. Also warranty will be very important when this become available as Specialized got there fingers burned as I've had 5 motors and current motor has 2250 miles on it and just waiting for a fail again but as a sports person I ride every day or twice a day when not racing motocross. For the price wheels need to be strong as i run Hope wheels as Roval kept cracking. They should give me a bike to test as I went through 5 coil shocks 4 shoch body cracks and one shaft bent, so I run Fox air X2 shock as the frame was flexing and now the come with air shocks. So my frame broke at the flex point which I took photo's to show the coil rubbing the frame when riding. What is the top speed as well as my non e/bike was slower on top speed until I changed a few things.
@@SamsBikes Thanks Sam looking on there site and it's the way to go as cassette etc are done as e/bike are going to need to move to the Pivot system gearbox as it's price is next level to motocross bikes. I only got into e/bike after blowing my right Femur into 4 bits and need to rebuild my muscles back to my left and the Specialized computer can be tuned via a app for load help as gym work is very limited.
-10mm BB drop. It's okay. Definitely should be 0mm on a 27" wheel. I guess you mean the motor doesn't stick out over the chainring. But it also depends on the suspension and shock. And separate but related issue is crank length. My guess is this suspension doesn't really give that spectacular support for pedaling so with that 10mm BB drop this will be above average but not in great category. Something like axle height on a 29" Pole would probably the leader in the class in the respect of being able to pedal and not getting strikes.
@@Raumance Yes motor overhang as my Specialized Kenovo Expert I run very little rider sag and drop the forks through the clamps to get ground clearance and I run only 27.5 as 29 are too much in tight forest trails.
The belt had a bit of a delay? You never push back when being had for a fool? The point of a gearbox is not to have maintenance intensive parts and a tensioner arm in the back.
well there you go riders.... a very busy 4 days 400km and loads of camera work! I hope you like it and like always got a questioned just ask
How is the ride with the motor shut off riding only pedals? Because the point of e-bike is to pedal without the motor at straight trail and to turn on and use the motor at hills more. And the battery can be used longer in a day 👍🏻
The fact that the range matches with Bosch, Brose and Yamaha makes the Pinion gearbox clearly the best option. Went through 3 derailleurs and 3 hangers last year. This year went through a derailleur, 2 hangers so far. Friend 1 destroyed 1 derailleur, 2 hangers this year. Friend 2 destroyed a derailluer, a stack and a hanger and had the shifting cables swtiched out as well. So much trouble, money, wasted time and ruined rides.
Thanks mate! Honestly I was so busy in the 4 days there was so many more things I wanted to add like you just said so thanks for adding them! And for the range tests they are not fun but very needed I feel! Thanks for the kind words
Totally agree, the derailleur concept is from the steam age, this industry needs to move on especially the money we have the privilege of paying for these bikes
Rider errors... learn from your mistakes maybe.
@wildgoatmtb5361 How to say you only ride to grocery store and back without saying it. You have to ride like a granny.
You MTBers are nuts....
Staight up honest review. Wouldn't expect anything else from you Sam. Thanks for all your work.
Thanks 🙏 rider!
I’m spoiled with my BBSHD hardtail with a 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub...and a throttle.
You can spend however much you want, and you will never get uphill as fast with less effort. I only have to pedal,assist the motor, on the very steepest sections and maintain like around 10 mph.
Plus I’ve got PNW Coast dropper with suspension. Nice for sections you can remain 9:16 seated for a little rest, or on the road.
My local trails, which I’m doomed to ride, no transportation, do not need a FS bike. After 5 of them, I went back to a hardtail 15 years ago.
That should date me, I’m 71 now, and more than a little lazy.
First to the tube with a pinion gearbox review. Loved how honest it was. Great bike to just get on and ride. If you don’t maintain your own bike it will also save you a fortune. Looking forward to your Bosch SX review as well. Keep up the great reviews!
Thanks Michael I really appreciate the kind words this one was like 10 days of work and I’m smashed now haha
Looked your video twice. Thanks for the work. Especially the Range test! Like your honest style!
I tested the MGU by my self. And i am in with a Bulls Vuca Evo AM2 in pre order. Best buy for money i think. I also like the Rotwild and the Simplon very much.
Thanks mate
The review was not as bad as I had feared. It came across as honest and straightforward.
Thanks mate I was over all very impressed better than I expected
I have been saying that I will be getting an ebike when they evolve into a more refined version. Integrating the motor and gearbox seems like they are finally there! I would love to try a long travel enduro version with a belt drive.
Yep they are here! I’m pretty sure there are only trail bike right now
Surron makes one.
Same for me!! Only waiting for an enduro with super good rear suspension and maybe lighter and more powerful battery and then, I'll make the switch! :)
Simplon rapcon pmax pinion, 165/170mm, you can choose the 720wh battery
Big shout out to you Sam, for bringing us the best emtb reviews!
I appreciate that brother so much! This one was 10 days of my life I love it but man it’s not easy
4-5 and 8-9 the gear box has to make a big transition to the next gear. I get so many redwood branches in my derailleurs I need one of these.
Yep 👍 but once they get it right wow 😯
Think of the pinion gearbox as a 4 speed with a triple chainring.
From 4th to 5th the clunk is coming from the 1st Chainring changing to the 2nd, and likewise 8th to 9th is when the 2nd chaining moves to the 3rd.
In those two instances there’s a lot happening in the gearbox.
I’m lucky enough to have pre ordered the Simplon Rapcon with this system, including the belt drive as well as the auto shift, which I understand is well refined now. Pinion are going to want this to be bang on right from the start. There’s a lot riding on this, pun intended.
1st batch arriving in the UK late January. Can’t wait
Great review!! I definitely fell into the 50ish% that is remiss on maintenance. I hope in future bikes there is a belt option. For me, that is the perfect setup!!
There is now
I fall into the meticulous with maintenance category but I don’t want the hassle unless necessary. Anything that reduces maintenance time and cost is a win for me .
The klonk is just from the gears, the are moduls or planets. You can hear that as well on a ordinary gearbox without motor. I got a trekking bike with C1.12 and I love it. My next one will be with E.12 and also gates belt.
Sam! Riding the new pinion E1.12!!!! How great!!!!Testing and feeling the new technology
Thanks my love for all your amazing work on the camera
Sorry, Pinion sind nicht die ersten, die Motor und Getriebe in einem Serien-E-Bike kombiniert haben. Das war Continental mit der integrierten stufenlosen NuVinci. Leider hatte diese Qualitätsprobleme und Continental hat sich später komplett aus dem E-Bikemarkt zurückgezogen.
Davon abgesehen ist Pinion technisch super entwickelt und umgesetzt. Befürchte nur, dass die Räder für Normalverdiener viel zu teuer sind.
Thanks Sam. Looks like break through bike. Always like your enthusiasm. 🇨🇦
Thanks Rider I really appreciate your response
3:04 it a shame you can't change to a bigger chain ring if for urban or faster rides.
13:30 can you actively switch off motor assist and become a normal bike? e.g. down hill pedaling doesn't need motor assist.
Did Pinion solve the 'engagement angle' problem? Please compare Gold standard Rohloff, I'm not a fan with large 'gear steps'.
Very informative, I love all your range test videos. That is my first information I considered when I bought my first eMTB.
Thanks mate I hate them haha 😂
Great review and super interesting tech. I’m still happy with my Turbo Levo Comp, however I suspect this will be the last traditional ebike I’ll own. 960w battery is definitely the way to go. A 65 degree head angle and a 160mm forks and it would be spot on.
game changer! Who wants a derailleur with al the wear and tear. With this system maintenance is almost zero. finally!
Totally the future is here
It’s 10k for a 9 speed.
For comparisons sake an Cube stereo similar specs with an Bosch CX is 4K-5k
That’s a lot of chains/casettes.
If you keep it 11 speed linkglide you can get 3000km easy for 150 ish in parts. That is pessimistic
30 of those is easy 100k before breakeven. And let’s be honest a single speed chain can’t make 100k either. Nor does a belt nor the battery or Motor.
So cost wise it will never pay for itself.
Cant wait for Specialized to adopt this motor/gearbox system with a Belt Drive. Add the Gen 3 Levo Geometry features and that would be my Dream eBike.
Absolutely love the benefits of a gearbox. I think if they can keep refining it and making it better it could be the future. I would absolutely consider a gear box bike.
I really want one of these. No more cassete and chain change every year. The future is now! Thanks for you honest oPinion on this Sam. Regards from Brazil
It will only cost you 8k euros in Europe, plus 5-6k euros on shipping and taxes to Brazil. Your choice, a brand new decent car or one of these.
I believe this is the future of e-mtb because I have been riding e-mtb for last 2 years and I have weared many smallest 11t cogs with 38t front chainring and only 70 Nm motor.
Rohloff E14 is Noisy in Some Gears and Can Jump When Changing,Having had one I Did Not Like the Weight in the Back Wheel,So if this Gets Better over the Next Couple of Years it Will be a Winner in my View,I Did Not Realize Chain Was Better than a Belt ,I Have Had a Rethink After Watching again and I Changed my View As Well As The Belt Drive Needs Massive Tension on it to Work and Causes Drag When Not Using Motor,So Chain does Not ,And As its Not Moving From side to side Only in Line it should Last a Long Time If its Looked After.
The chain is a bit more efficient than a belt, is easier to repair and because the chain is not doing shifting duties, it will last a whole lot longer. There's pros and cons for the belt VS chain, just depends what's important to you.
Chains are only more efficient when perfectly clean and lubed. Otherwise belts are. On ebikes belts are a no brainer anyways, no derailleur to tear off or bend, no chain that gets rusty or loses performance in adverse conditions.
Good information. Thought it was going to a firework show! Definitely the way of the future but I’ll wait for some more refinement.
thanks mate
Great video, informative & honest. This is the future.👍 (about time!) Where in Austria are you? Beautiful!
Thanks rider.... Hinterglemm, Austria,
With no derailleur, how do the chain, front and rear sprockets wear in comparison? Would like to see a longer test with little or no chain maintenance.
They dont get dirt, debris, water, so might be quite long
I still don't understand how you give a review, stay on point better than most reviews and ride at the same time. If I even let my thoughts slide on a downhill I'm in the trees. I'm a bit upset to see the chain but the reason totally makes sense.
Hahaha I have ridden my whole life and it’s just same crazy skill I have but remember I do Edit out the oh shot moments haha
Great review that's what we want all spec and total honesty subscribed.
Thanks mate
if you don't need a derailleur anymore....why would you have a stupid tensioner hanging off the back end?
very interesting review. whats a bit wierd is the camera angle from the front. You like like an animated rider!!
Sorry mate you didn’t like the camera angle 📐 it was a very very busy 4 days
Awesome tech at last getting rid of that derailer, obviously 10k put it out of reach for most of us right now but I hope it catches on and cheaper options come out
Thanks 🙏 mate yep pretty amazing tech and I’m sure it will trickle down in the future
...way out of range, at $10,000!
Great review, thanks Sam
My pleasure!
Overall great review! Been waiting for this from the SF, CA usa area with great anticipation! For older folks(im 51) who have ridden Sturmey Archer planetary gear systems we know there is going to be a brief lag with certain gears which I believe is just inherent with the planetary gear system. One other big side benifit of this single cog system in the rear would be the ability to reduce or eliminate rear wheel dish which will make a stroger more stable rear wheel which is great for durability. Can't wait for a test ride myself to experience what you are saying about the 2 gear change "issues" between particullary 4&5. Did you say in your review that the shifting has a delay going into lower or higher gears? I didn’t quite catch what you were saying about that in the video. Thx again for the review😜🚵♂️
Best review to date
Thanks mate!
When are these coming to Australia?
Not sure later in the year possibly
Thank you for being honest 🙂 Exciting technology.
Thanks rider
Yes, it could have and should have happened many years ago BUT there is one thing missing from this timely leap forward. A regenerative braking system in the motor.
When they come out with that and the rubber belt drive I will get one. It will only require a clutch mechanism to disengage the pedals et Voila !
Definitely the future, let's get integrated baby
Re leasing in Germany, I can confirm that keys for the battery are not a requirement, at least not with the company I leased my Levo from. For any readers in Germany, leasing is well worth looking at if your company is willing to do a little bit of paperwork.
Thank you Sam for this really nice and informative "real world" Test on the trails. Personally I never think to get an Ebike, because of the normal SRAM, Shimano Shifting Technology. I drive since 2012 Pinion on my MTBs and my opinion is: never go back to a classic shifting bike, because of the No-Mainantance approach and the plus to shift in the stand without move. I never had/have problems (with chain and Gates version) in the Winter. So for Ebikes I would say Pinion MGU is the game changer like 11 years ago the gearbox P1.18 was. The one real problem I see here is the price of the bikes, which come into a region of an KTM of Husqvarna Enduro or SM. But Ebike you can driver everywhere...
P.s. the clunk in 2 gears comes from the 2nd shaft. You have the gears distributed to 2 shafts. 3 wheels on the2nd shaft the rest on the first. When you shift to the 6 or 12 gear (for P1.18 with 18 gears) you shift to the first cogwheel on the first shaft and in the same step into the 2nd cog wheel on the 2nd shaft. Then for the next gears you just shift on the next cogwheel on the first shaft, until you change again in gear 12 (for P1.18). That is also the reason why you feel the change and cannot have full force on the pedals for some milli seconds. But on the trail it is just a short time where you noticed it, then you just use it. For E1.12 I don't know it Pinion is using 2 or 3 cogs on the 2nd shaft....maybe they will explain it in a video somewhere.
It's a great review, but I'd like to know a little bit more, if possible: What was your average power while doing the extreme range test, does the computer keep track of that?
Thanks mate... Sorry I can only tell you my average heart rate was 132
Thanks for the honest review. 👍🏽
Always! Thanks for the kind words
Sam is there a sweet spot for the travel on bikes for heavier riders or is more always better?
Hey mate yes I would say a little more travel couldn’t hurt, send me a PM on instagram and we can chat
I don't think the pros on that system are only about zero maintenance, the fact that you can shift gears without pedaling is a game changer, especially on climbs, the choice about the chain in my opinion is a cons, but the rear suspension must be designed ad hoc to be used with belt, in terms of reliability a belt lasts 30k km not far comparable with a chain that in the most optimistic ways can last 4k on a ebike with singlespeed setup... the noise is not a problem considering the advantages this motor can give and the range is really good. We have to see how this motor will develop and improve and the same for the Rotwild that's still a prototype, but in my opinion that's the future.
Thanks for the comment mate! Totally agree this gearbox motor thing is the going to be apart of the ebike future
@SamsBikes you're welcome I always follow your videos 😉 I suggest you to make a comparison between a traditional transmission and a gearbox in shifting under load conditions with high assistance, on regular transmissions is not even possible to do that, new T type sram groupsets works better but I think is not comparable with pinion, at least after seen the tests. Anyway let's hope many brands will support this new tech, we need that. 🙏
Thanks for the feedback mate! To be honest it was a crazy 4 days of testing I missed a few things; what I might do is do a follow up Q&A video
I wonder if between gear 4 and 5 is kinda like switching the way a front derailleur does?
Yes! This gearbox is 3x4 inside. Two groups of gears. This noise is only when change the second set of gears. Similar to high low transfer case
No question, I think you have covered everything i wanted to know very well 👍
I wish it was quieter, but def not a game changer. I think they did a good job…4 kilo with a gear box?! Awesome sauce! The future is looking good people!! I would want a belt instead of the chain, maybe shorter crank arms to combat the stretch/delay?!
Awesome job as ALWAYS Sam.
Will the US version have a 750watt motor? Great location and enjoyed the review
Thanks mate! I don’t think we will see a 750watt motor but you never know
maybe this system is the gamechanger,but 2 big ones dont like the idea of not selling milllions of rearmags,k7,chains etc. -greetings from sunny Algarve
I tried the flyer up a steep hill and I found the gear changes 4 and 8 disconcerting plus that dead feel just after the change as you experienced. I really wanted to love this MGU but I am now wondering if it can be improved or I just take on the more powerful sachs RS from NOX and live with the chain and derailleur. Ummm wake up pinion and sort it out (maybe easier said than done.)
I thought it was better than I expected yes not perfect yet but it’s only Gen 1
@@SamsBikes I think one of the ways this transpired is pinion have been supplying their gearboxes for a decade and nobody complained but they did not factor in that their products where being powered by weedy humans not a powerful motor. Add a motor into the mix and present that to ebike users and new to the market customers enticed by the clean belt and enclosed gearbox. then the complaints come thick fast and loud. Fantastic that they are trying though looking forward for gen sorted.
I am not a MTBer, but i want this system for a recumbent trike....when are they going to make it available??? Sounds like you need to relieve pressure when changing 4th to 5th gears...
sweet. but you have to add a heavy chain , sprocket and a chain tension.. 700gr?
I can’t really comment because I haven’t ridden a belt drive pinion
Very Intriguing. I'm 2 seasons away from a new whip ( I ride a Giant Trance e+1 now) and I'll be looking for something similar to this in the USA. ? does it have the walk mode like many other eMTB motors have?
It has the coolest walk mode it actually can push you up the hill on the bike
Sam
Can we have another review of a production bike in the new year once they are available. Great review, thanks.
Absolutely but not sure it will happen
Only have one question,
Why does it have a chain?
I think suspension has chain grow or something in it that just doesn’t work with the belt and tensioner they had before
Would love to see an light version of this unit. Maybe some hightec plastic gear and half the motor power.
Great video. Are these available in UK?
No a problem mate no I don’t think you can but Rotwilds in the UK right now
Why would they put the chain tensioner in the back like a derailleur? Put it next to the bottom bracket/motor/gearbox, and point the tensioner up. Better rollover clearance. Lower weight in the rear. Less chance of mangling the tensioner.
Did you weigh the bike yourself? Would be interested to know what that configuration weighed. Really great review Sam. I was very much looking forward to it and you delivered in spades! Great review!
Hey Brendan thanks for the kind words, no I didn’t weigh the bike but I’m very sure it’s 24.6 because it was totally stock
Is the “clunk” caused by a range change in the box?
I’m not sure
Why would they use a chain? Isnt a key benefit of this getting rid of the chain moving to a maintenance free belt?
Are there any bikes coming to America that have the Pinion gearbox/motor system?
I don’t think this year
Yep I’m up for my first pinion once they sort out that display they need the specialised display and shifter.
Stunning technology but using still a chain😂😂😂😂belt!!!???
Great review/background
960Wh is great because you can do almost a 4 hour FTP endurance ride with it. 750Wh on a Bosch with xc rear tire lasts almost 70km. I'm assuming Pinion is similar battery performance.
Yep I was very impressed with the range! Also keep in mind if you don’t ride it in full power you will get even more
@@SamsBikes Had not watched the video when I commented. This makes practically certain I'm buying a Pinion next year. No way I'm using a derailleur anymore.
Tend to only ride on full power. Only use other modes when I have to extend the range. With endurance FTP rides I aim to just get it over the limiter whenever I can and then keep it there as long as reasonable. Usually around 180-220watts on fairly even to keep the bike going over. It's not optimal for training but I just can't do 3hour+ asfalt rides. I need some trails. The bigger batteries will solve this problem. Well you could just lower the assistance but it's boring crawling along. The fun of ebikes is that everything becomes fun. Use to dread losing altitude on roads wasting it. But on ebikes it's just fun to train cornering.
Looking at the numbers on range test the Bosch system is still bit more efficient. We get approximately 2000m of elevation in our local trail center on 750wh battery on our heavier Pole Voimas. The climb is more technical and steeper than the one used for the test on this video.
The controller looks as bad as the Bosch old Star ship enterprise one why didn't Pinion go for one integrated into the top tube and a small optional one for the handle bars for the cost of the system it's interface should look more premium, that control looks cheap and not very functional with the buttons on the top , hope they sort it for gen 2 , great review Sam as always
Hey mate thanks for the kind words... yep agree the remote is too big.
They are using batteries and controllers by a supplier (FIT), rather than producing their own ones. There are 2-3 different ones the bike manufacturers can choose, but this one really looks very clunky!
Sam, do you know if this gearbox motor will able to be fitted to say, existing ebike setups with a bosch motor etc? They look so similar and I think it would be a good way to go for the box. Do you also know if this is going to be just on 1 or 2 brands of bike rather than across the field? Cheers. Good video.
Mate I wish all the motors could swap around but that’s never going to happen so I don’t think you can mount this on another mount
Cool thing, if it wouldn't be e-bike. Hope that Pinion will dominate derailleurs in the future.
Very informative video. Thanks so much for posting! I have the SRAM XX1 Eagle AXS system on my Levo and it's great when it works but like you said, it is often a bit out of adjustment or sluggish. Wondering if the new SRAM Transmission derailleur is better. I feel like internal transmissions are the future for electric mountain bikes, but based on your review I am not going to get in a rush to buy one.
Thanks for the kind words.... I totally think Gearbox are in the future for ebikes... lets see the next gen
Have you ever smashed your derailleur during the ride?
The pinion gearbox is no brainer for me. After I smashed 3derailleursr at a cost of 400$ - 800$, pinion is a blessing for me :D
Does this opinion 12 com in different bikes like a commuter or fat tire bike ?
The noise would not be from the motor but the gearbox under strain, to be quieter the gear teeth need to change rather than flat, more chevron shaped or at a angle depending how the transfer from one gear to another, to gradually put load on the gear teeth, especially at low gears under load from the motor.
That motor and battery setup looks like it could accomodate a laid down shock and linkage setup. Gimme that and some R&D longevity testing on the motor, 160mm and 29er front and rear and i'm down.
Great review.
Glad you enjoyed it
Nice! In the US market, I would like to see a throttle version of this unit.
*
Maybe one day!
The hype over this is off the charts but expect it will be several years before all the bugs are worked out. In the meantime I love the new SRAM drivetrain
I think it’s a very interesting system but Maybe not there yet for a performance ebike but there are so many benefits. The new sram system is very cool as well
The Sram Sytem is built around a poor brose engine. It will take several years or at least until the new brose peak will hit the market...until this system will be as reliable as we expect 😉 meanwhile i give pinion a chance!
@@holger_ger3391 I have a SRAM drivetrain with a Bosch race motor. Win.
What was the motor noise like in gears 9-12?
Very good actually like a bosch
Great review. Thanks
Thanks rider
Well, Done...PINION would be more marketable if they paired with a frame manufacturer that will appeal to the former XC riders looking for a maintenance-free short travel sub-15 kg rider.
Couple of questions and a comment, this is a bit personal but approx how much do you weigh? I ride with a bunch of mates with the same motor/battery and some of us get much more range than others simply because of size. Also, have had a Zerode with the Pinion gear box which I love, they recommend changing the gear box oil once every 12 months, is this the same for the E1.12 and is it a DIY job or do you need a bike shop job. Finally, not sure I agree with Rotwild on the chain v belt thing, I understand Zerode are looking at a belt option and they've been doing Pinion for a long time. Thanks in advance
The MGU has the same servicing intervals as Pinions other gearboxes and like those ones you can do it yourself.
Nice looking bike!
Sure is!
@SamsBikes great job Skipp 👍🙏
Thanks bro
clunking gears doesn't mean anything if the gear changes are perfect every time. you are used to a bike sounding a certain way and are comparing something new to something you are used to, and making an observation it is somehow wrong.
you didn't mention you experienced missed shifts, or grinding/slipping in the gearbox.
my pinion 12 speed (manual) gearbox has positive clunks when gears engage, and i think it sounds cool.
i agree with the less weight on the back wheel improves the bike handling, i have a zerode katipo with a pinion 9sp. gearbox and it rides really well.
+ agree with your points about total cost of ownership and maintenance.
Thanks for your comments and I’m glad you are enjoying your pinion
this one going to be important
Agreed
Hey Sam I would've liked to see shifting under load. Like 400-600 watts on pedals.
Yep I did do that but totally forgot to add it in to the review! It’s very good under power but the problem gears are not.
@@SamsBikes You could just make a separate video about the shifting performance because it's a question many people have. Just was having a conversation about the Pinion on a forum where your video was linked. There really isn't info available. You are the primary source of it.
I tried it and I love that I can change the gears back on the hills without spinning the wheel!!!
I knew you would love it!
12 grand for this is a bit on the expensive side. I would love to see the price to come down and compete with Bosch. Perhaps can benefit from further revisions and refinements like the bosch system did over the years
Yep it’s not that affordable yet but if you look at high end e-bikes it’s not anymore expensive
If you want to spend 12k on an EV KTM makes some great bikes.
dont they have rubber belt instead of chain now?
Was really looking forward to this one! Great job on a totally honest review. I don't think id be put off by the clunk on changes. It seemed very quiet on the descents.....no motor chatter like the ep8? That would be a real plus. Belt drive requires a break in the rear triangular right? Although a belt is appealing on maintenance a tried and trusted chain may be better - very few motorcycles run belts either. Head angle a bit steep? A 180 zeb would slacken that nicely! Still, if i can get one im in.....
Thanks Dave, it doesnt chatter like the ep8 but there is a clunk on big compressions not sure what it was maybe the battery.
I would love to see your review of Revonte motor
So after battery is drained and 2 hours of riding i cant use the bike anymore to change gears... That is looking like dealbraker... I am gone for weekend and i have 5 hours availible to me ? hard pass..What about you ?
For me the 2-3 hours in peak assistance is more than enough for my style of riding
@@SamsBikes i mean that you can use the bike as you said for 2 hours without battery and than what ?
Pinion officially says, 1000 gear shifts remaining when Batterie is empty.
I think this is more than enough!
Would you say this is a game changer Sam and worth the money , would u recommend purchasing this tech now or leaving it for a couple of years ?
As I said in the review I feel it amazing for more than 50% of ebike riders that just want hassle free riding
Gearboxes- It’s going to be a $$$$$- end option for the next few years no matter what. The motor gearbox combo is the inevitable destination of ebike evolution
They still make the common fault of putting the charge port where it gets in the way of the pedal cranks as these bikes need charging so if your looking after the chain or cassette indexing you have to unplug so that's time lost of charging time which takes 5 hours so indexing and preping chain that's time lost. The motor looks very good and ground clearance is good without a big overhang which is a pain on ebikes on roots etc. Also warranty will be very important when this become available as Specialized got there fingers burned as I've had 5 motors and current motor has 2250 miles on it and just waiting for a fail again but as a sports person I ride every day or twice a day when not racing motocross. For the price wheels need to be strong as i run Hope wheels as Roval kept cracking. They should give me a bike to test as I went through 5 coil shocks 4 shoch body cracks and one shaft bent, so I run Fox air X2 shock as the frame was flexing and now the come with air shocks. So my frame broke at the flex point which I took photo's to show the coil rubbing the frame when riding. What is the top speed as well as my non e/bike was slower on top speed until I changed a few things.
Hey mate thanks for the comment sounds like you are riding hard! The top speed on this bike is 25 like all the others in Europe
@@SamsBikes Thanks Sam looking on there site and it's the way to go as cassette etc are done as e/bike are going to need to move to the Pivot system gearbox as it's price is next level to motocross bikes. I only got into e/bike after blowing my right Femur into 4 bits and need to rebuild my muscles back to my left and the Specialized computer can be tuned via a app for load help as gym work is very limited.
-10mm BB drop. It's okay. Definitely should be 0mm on a 27" wheel. I guess you mean the motor doesn't stick out over the chainring. But it also depends on the suspension and shock. And separate but related issue is crank length.
My guess is this suspension doesn't really give that spectacular support for pedaling so with that 10mm BB drop this will be above average but not in great category. Something like axle height on a 29" Pole would probably the leader in the class in the respect of being able to pedal and not getting strikes.
@@Raumance Yes motor overhang as my Specialized Kenovo Expert I run very little rider sag and drop the forks through the clamps to get ground clearance and I run only 27.5 as 29 are too much in tight forest trails.
great test is the remote wireless ?
No I don’t think so but not 💯 sure
The belt had a bit of a delay? You never push back when being had for a fool? The point of a gearbox is not to have maintenance intensive parts and a tensioner arm in the back.
Definitely keen, but the price here in Australia is probably going to be ridiculous
Yep they won’t be cheap! Might be a few years to get to oz
15:40 🤣🤣🤣 He is a powerful guy!!
haha you know it