Unveiling the truth: Why I left Eastern Orthodoxy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ย. 2024
- This is the testimony of Evangelist Jason Terpack about why he left the Eastern Orthodox Church. Jason holds both the MDiv. from an evangelical Seminary and a Certificate in Orthodox Theology from AHOS. He is an ordained Christian Minister and also served for a time in the minor clergy of the Orthodox Church.
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kcapretnosaj
If you are here in the Comments and you’re Orthodox , pray for this man!
@aquiladavid5681
, I agree 1000% with you, these people have failed to realize that they are in a state of apostasy.
We need to pray for the Eastern Orthodox. Let's solely bow, pray, venerate, glorify, praise, bless, confess, honour and thank God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. May Christ have mercy on us all.
Who are you going to pay to though
He’s sooooo incorrect
@@philipdeklerk325 So, I am willing to bet that you believe you are following the teachings of the New Testament. Right? I would like to ask you to take my Bible quiz, it is an easy yes or no exam. If you have one no, you are not in the true Church that was established by Jesus and delivered by the Apostles. Do you offer incense in the name of the Lord as prophesied in Malachi 1:11? For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles, and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
Do you follow Apostolic Teachings as mentioned in Acts 2:42? And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Do you abide in the Traditions of the Church as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:15? Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Do you “ μακαριοῦσίν῾ Bless honor Mary as mentioned in Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Do you have an Altar in your Church as mentioned in Matthew 5:23, Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Revelation 11:1? And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. If you say no to just one of my questions means that you are not abiding by the Gospel as it was given by Jesus to his Disciples, in return they gave it to the Church. Via preaching and teaching Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be"ἀνάθεμα" accursed! How can we accept doctrines outside of Apostolic Teachings and Sacred Scriptures?
I am an Orthodox Christian and I listened to your thoughtful comments and enjoyed them. Please allow me to react to your comments, in a spirit of brotherhood, not attempting to prove you wrong. Broadly, I think you have valid criticisms but they are of incorrect understanding by Orthodox Christians you encountered, not of actual Orthodox theology.
Icons are worthy of reverence for that which they represent. The 7th ecumenical council specifically suggested that icons were useful for instruction. Following this teaching, I used the icons placed in the middle of the church each Sunday to teach my children when they were small, asking them what they saw and describing to them what the icon represented and taught to us. As Christians left a status of persecution in the early 4th century, they naturally began to make representations of Christ. An image of Christ was certainly something to be revered, because of what it represented, God. The Church took care to guide the production of representations to make sure that they did their best to not offend the dignity of holiness and that they properly conveyed what was represented (accurate, theologically consistent). From the holiness of relics and the image of God, the Church made the analogy to the two natures of Jesus as man and God: the relics are bones and they are holy, the icons are wood and paint and they are holy.
Mary is not viewed as sinless in Orthodoxy. Jesus Christ is specifically called the "Only Sinless One". Mary, the "birth giver of God" (Theotokos or Bogorodnitza) has a great veneration in the Orthodox Church but this is from the fact that she and only she bore God in her womb, raised him, loved him with maternal love, spoke with him throughout his life on Earth, accompanied him to the wedding at Cana and requested of him that he bless that joyous gathering with his first miracle. Christ remembered her and cared for her with his last worldly task: "This is your mother. This is your son." Christ's own behavior on the Cross tells us that Mary was worthy of great care, great love, great reverence.
Salvation is the gift Christ calls us to: to have God as our Father and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to leave worldly concerns and partake of his life. "It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me." To say that "we are saved by acts" or "we are saved by faith" are both wrong. We are saved by the love, the grace of God. The first step is repentance: "Repent for the Kingdom of God is Nigh". The Publican was justified by a broken spirit of repentance. Repentance is our great personal contribution to our salvation, the rest is given to us by God. That is our act and our faith: repentance. As with the Prodigal Son, all he needed to do was see with new eyes the pigsty of his existence, to think about his Father's house and to decide to return. When he arrived, his words were of repentance but it was not his practiced speech that saved him; it was his Father's unfailing, abundant love. From afar, before the son could even speak, his Father ran to him, embracing him with joy.
Fasting is voluntary and a practice that is given by the Church tradition as a powerful spiritual tool, especially a tool for repentance and spiritual purification. We are sinful and judge so easily. None should be proud that they are fasting and none should distain those who do not fast. Is this what Orthodox all practice? Sadly, Orthodox are sinful like everyone else. From long ago, there was a kind of splinter Christian group in Russia that came to be called the Molokanye because, shockingly, during Lent they continued to drink milk (Russian: moloko). This is so foolish it is funny and shows what you say is true: one can be proud and judging in fasting.
The prodigal son first repented, and went back to his father with the mindset of serving as his other servants. He had set his mind to work.
@@alexanderkapsiotis8050 great point!
@@charlesiragui2473 hmm interesting this council had a lot in common with Joseph smith. Just dismiss the Bible's teachings and insert your own. Paganism is really hard to get away from isn't it? It's everywhere and in everything it seems. This makes me very sad. We all need to be praying and asking for Our Heavenly Fathers Holy Spirit to guide us in our daily lives and repenting at our Lord and Savior Jesus The Christs feet.
@@YahwehsKnitWit Do you object to images of Christ? I don’t think you should. I like what you’re saying, though. Idolatry, paganism and pride are everywhere and we should humbly seek forgiveness, and give forgiveness.
@@charlesiragui2473 not so much, I don't idolized such images, I also don't wear any jewelry so that means crosses and the like. Oh except my wedding band, although if I had revelation to not wear it, it to would be tossed. For a female I'm very strange, I don't need or want the material things that most women want. Comment to the other post you wrote, I read a couple years about the Molokans, for the most part I have a lot in common with them in my understanding of scriptures. To be honest you seem to be very intelligent in a worldly way that I'm not going to be able to keep up with. Spiritually I understand the scriptures and my relationship with Jesus The Christ. I have a personal witness of his sacrifice and pain that HE suffered for all of us if we except Him. HE IS EVERYTHING. Should we fast most definitely but not because someone tells us to. We have to have a purpose to fast, if you don't have a purpose then I would say "something is very wrong".
So…let me get this straight: You chose to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy without knowing that icons, the veneration of Theotokis , and works of love based in faith were all apart of the Tradition? How much research did you really do in making your decision? Surely you attended a worship service or two before you made your decision to go through catechesis. I would think you would have asked many, many questions about faith and practices within the church.
I have a lot of questions about your reasoning to, first, make the decision to become Eastern Orthodox without knowing more about the tradition, and, second, the real reasons you now renounce it. Your three reasons are standard Protestant-Evangelical objections.
To those who are wondering, this man never fully converted to EO.
The objections are truly Protestant and no one from an Apostolic church, meaning churches founded by the Apostles, would ever make.
The objections are :
- icons
- the place of Mary
- faith alone vs faith with « works »
The objections are very basic, superficial and literalistic.
I say this as a Catholic, but the EO denomination is extremely deep and beautifully symbolic.
I highly doubt this man ever truly converted.
Apostolic churches are very clear about those 3 Protestant « objections » and it seems very strange that a person would realize this only years after having « converted ».
As for the latter objections, those are the judgment of congregations rather than the theology.
I'm an EO inquirer (Protestant), for 4 years now I've been pondering this 'alien' faith only to find out it's historical authenticity. Even if I finally decided on the 'blue pill' I would never have the kahunas to plant the seed of rejection. I believe all Protestants need a history lesson because most of our bickering comes from discrepancies in the 'glossary of terms'.
And though I've been denied catachumincy (on me) I can't undo my heart's upgrade.
I agree, His conversion was subjectively false.
Those objections lit the fires of reformation in Europe. You underestimate their potency.
@@TheB1naryMartin Luther smelled of sulfur when he died and he did a horrible thing and he is leading a lot of people into hell along with him.
@@TheB1nary Only people who haven’t evolved beyond the last 500 years are still making those objections. There are better arguments against Apostolic churches than those. It would be nice if the level of discourse would be elevated instead of stagnant.
As for the Reformation in Europe… well many who « converted » actually did so out of opportunism; to overthrow the artistocracy in order to fill that vacant seat. I’m not saying this for all, but many did see a financial gain in it.
@nerdanalog1707 @nerdanalog1707 I find it amusing that an argument would be made out of opportunism during the reformation. One of the aims of the reformation was to attempt to stamp out the willful use and abuse of church resources - and ultimately - of the laity. You can't argue that as a position against the reformation when the Catholic church made that kind of thing a normal event. If you haven't noticed that the argument has already 'evolved' over the past 500 years, you probably haven't taken notice. In addition, the reason that those points still stand is that they are still core components of the Catholic system and therefore still objected to. It's not rocket science.
"When someone who is not Orthodox comes to the Orthodox Church he must go through a furnace of repentance, of change and regeneration of his entire way of thinking and living. This will take a long time. In order for someone’s positive attitude towards Orthodoxy to become an experience of his heart, he must lead a life of asceticism and crucifixion for many years, otherwise the ‘old self’ will remain, with the result that unbelief and the inclination to go back to the old way of life will often occur."
- Saint Sophrony of Essex
Meaning he must go through a ritual process of brainwashing.
This has been my exact experience "A furnace of repentance, change and regeneration". Orthodoxy is beautiful beyond belief, In the liturgy the scriptures come alive and have a way of changing my hard heart. Thank you for your GODLY wisdom.
Orthodox here, you could answer some questions of me?
0:52 for how long have you been orthodox?
2:13 on what did you based your assumption, that early Christian symbols where closer to Christianity (I guess what you mean) than icons, and if so what would make the practice of icon veneration etc. false?
3:28 so I guess you reject the teachings of saints like John of Damascus?
3:42 so what makes you think that it makes icons veneration wrong? Aside from councils and saints there are many cases in the Bible, that show us people had images. For example the Angel statues on the arc of commandments or statues in the first temple, on which churches are based. Or the shroud of Turin, where Jesus face is imprinted?
4:30 if you have been orthodox, you should know that images and icons are not the same. In biblical terms images refer to things that did not existed, like idols. But icons depict real people that lived holy lifes.
5:40 apostolic succession is only found in the Orthodox Church, how can you argument that your church has apostolic succession?
6:39 how is the veneration of the Holy Theotokos not biblical? The Angel who brought the good news to her literally venerated her like orthodox do, which is in the Bible.
7:41 the body parts of someone are not the same category as the person itself
10:00 basically your assumption is, that everything is false what was not in the first three centuries. The doctrines and rituals of the church where established in those three centuries and manifested at the holy councils, when Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire. That is why we listen to the saints and the church fathers, that were disciples of the apostles (hence apostolic succession), where the Orthodox Church can track their succession back. Reformed churches are out of the question to be THE church of Jesus. So my last question is, what is your believe based on on what the true church is supposed to be according to you? Sorry if my questions sound condescending, but I think your arguments are weak. I hope you can answer some of my questions, because I want to understand on what grounds people like you reject the Orthodox Church.
Honestly I feel like this dude was just in a anti-Orthodox youtube black hole lol
Correction, apostolic succesion is not found in orthodox church alone. You could argue about legitimate apostolic succesion (whatever denomination you are), but both catholic and oriental orthodox churches have apostolic succesion
I converted to orthodoxy almost 3yrs ago. I should say, its not easy at all to be an orthodox. I entirely rely on God's mercy, that He will help me to remain faithful, because it is beyond my abilities.
I found, that to be real, not nominal orthodox, it takes hard work, lots of mental, physical and spiritual discipline, constant self assessment, and the most important - humility and obedience. If you are not determined to be obedient to The Church and to your spiritual father, even if it contradicts your personal reasoning, it's better to stay away from the Orthodox Christianity.
Taking that into account, it is very tempting to be evangelical, because it takes much less effort. You live the way that suits you, because no matter what, you are already saved, flawless child of God. You can "follow Jesus" the way you feel right for yourself. Everything in the church is about you, you can be sure that the "praise and worship team" and the pastor will do whatever needed to get you entertained, so that you are not bored, not dissatisfied with the church and not frustrated with God.
You're lying when you say it takes no effort. I didn't do anything but submit to God and he did the rest. Took my anger and resentment of others away. I didn't have to submit to any special churches to do it or rely on a pope or priest or ask for a woman that has been dead for thousands of years to pray on my behalf. But you do you I guess. Keep continuing to sin with those demons and pray to Jesus and Mary to take it away only to do it all over again in a loop. How can you know peace when all you do is pick up a sword?
@@KLamki1compared to Eastern Orthodoxy , Evangelism is very easy. It really isn’t close when it comes to what is required of you.☦️
@@shobudski6776 they have no idea...
I love that personal reasoning, 💯
@shobudski6776 repentance is required for all Christians. That is never easy
21:07 says it all. Pray for deliverance of pride. You want a "wife", you want all the "meat" to eat, you want to be saved by no works, you want to disregard the Mother of God. You want your way. You want the flesh. You want easy. Works along with fasting give you the tools to change the sins of the flesh we all battle with. To foster a deepening in your faith.
Paulist
Literal heresy. We are saved through faith in Christ alone. Our works are a testament of our faith. Go over the gospels and the epistles again.
@@predatxr.6928 Faith in Christ allows us to do works pleasing to God, I.E being good to your neighbor, loving your enemy, praying for others, caring for those in need, being nice or showing empathy especially when it hurts you. These are works of the Spirit and take an effort on our part to complete these works. We must do this as Jesus commands throughout the Scriptures. Being "saved" is not just a "ticket" to heaven but a spiritual transformation> Works along with fasting deepen the relationship with God allowing ourselves to be saved.
@@saragodvlogs9403 "you want a wife"
The bible never says you must be single and celibate, if so it is a personal choice. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting a wife.
Does God want that wife for the person though @@m.g.6394
If this is how you feel about Orthodoxy, I don't understand why you joined the Church. It seems like you never left evangelicalism.
I left evangelicalism to become part of the Orthodox Church. In fact, I left a pastorate to do so, with my family, and it took many years to do so from the heart. But when a person leaves the Protestant tradition, they have a lot of "baggage," which in many cases is not baggage at all that they have to leave behind. And to truly convert to Orthodoxy they cannot just put these things aside, but they have to work through them and come to the point where they truly believe that the Orthodox version of things is correct and true. I can say that I truly converted to Orthodoxy but also that I am glad I did not stay there.
The reasons you gave here are all so shallow and surface level. The Orthodox (and Catholics for that matter) have answers to all these, and they make far far more sense than the evangelical option. I went to an evangelical seminary but my wife and I became orthodox and it was the best decision we ever made. To speak of orthodox as the cherry pickers while being an evangelical is too much. It’s the complete opposite. Evangelical Protestantism really make no sense whatsoever.
@@HarrisonMiller_G it may surprise you to know that I know how you feel. Was in that same position while orthodox. But the sad thing is that it accepted all of the orthodox “answers” because my presuppositions trapped me into an unrealistic either or scenario. I could either accept Orthodoxy and their whitewashed view of church history, or I could be part of a “made up” Protestant church. Those are not the only two options.
I had friend who was Catholic, than he became orthodox, he left and became Muslim, after he came back to orthodoxy, after two years he left and created a pagan cult by worshiping Greek pagan gods. He left the cult he himself created and became Catholic again but after few months he came with tears and repented and came back to orthodoxy. However he left and now is in china. Last picture I saw he is a Buddhist monk.
@@JasonTerpack I don’t think you do understand, to be honest. I left evangelical Protestantism because it didn’t have the answers I was looking for. I was content for almost 20 years. But, it was as I was studying the scriptures and teaching an in depth bible study at my baptist church, getting into the Hebrew and Greek, that my former theological system began to crumble. So much of what I believed about what the Bible was saying was flat out wrong. And there was so much in the Bible that I just couldn’t wrap my mind around, stuff I’d never noticed before. I began looking for help, trying to find the truth. Spent almost ten years looking at diffident commentaries for help, but the Protestants all contradicted each other…there was no unity, there was no clarity, just each pastor - each individual - being his own supreme source of authority. It was just American individualism all over the place. Sola Scriptura really just meant “sola my opinion” and “if you disagree your gospel is false.” Then, oh boy, I found the church fathers! What a life changing discovery! The church of the earliest Christians looked nothing at all like the modernist evangelical churches. I began looking at different Christian traditions trying to find the authentic church - trying, really, to find the Eucharist, Christ himself. It was Christ who said that unless we eat his flesh and blood there is no life in us; and he said “this IS my body….this IS my blood.” That’s significant. Do Protestants have the Eucharist? How can we be certain where the Eucharist is?
As far as Mary goes, evangelicals have almost a disdain for her for some reason that gives the impression of a demonic influence. Luke clearly portrayed Mary as the arc of the covenant, and even the reformers believed that she was sinless - because that is what the Bible teaches us about God’s presence- that is, it requires a pure, unstained dwelling, otherwise His presence could not inhabit that space- seriously consider this, look at the parallel narratives of God’s presence in the Holy of Holies and his presence in Mary’s womb. When the Angel comes to her, She was already, according to the Gospel, “full of grace” the Greek meaning “full to the brim with grace” - she had been chosen by God himself and sanctified for this task. She gave her full and perfect consent to the will of God, reversing Eve’s consent to satan. Thus, she is the new Eve, she is the new ‘woman’, the title which the first created female is primarily called in Genesis 1 through 3 (Jesus intentionally called Mary “woman” several times, a reference to her role as the new Eve, not because he was disrespectful to her, like evangelicals think, which would cause Jesus to have broken the law). This is what Jesus was actually referring to in that passage which protestants like to use, as you did, where the woman said to Jesus “ blessed is the woman that gave birth to you“ and Jesus says “blessed rather is the one who knows the world of God and does it“ - most protestants miss that Jesus is actually talking about Mary still. She was blessed because she heard the voice of God and fully consented to it. That is Jesus whole point - Mary is the model Christian, the first. Christian.
We also believe that salvation is by faith alone, so long as you mean the same thing by the word “faith” as the Bible does, which is “faith working through love” or “the obedience of faith” or “faithfulness” That the word ‘Justification’ is used differently by James than Paul is a pure cope, for its a distinction that doesn’t exist in the text. It’s an explanation simply made up whole-cloth just to maintain a faulty understanding of Paul’s understanding of justification. There is no actual textual reason that the word is being used differently, it’s just stated as if that settled the matter. It doesn’t. If you were to sit down a read through Paul, and you DIDN’T divorce his talk of justifying faith from his injunctions on the necessity of obedience, then it becomes as plain as day that Paul’s understanding of faith is not merely mental or emotional consent, but rather, a faith that is not characterized by obedience is not faith at all. You cannot separate obedience from faith as if they are different things. Obedience to Christ is what faith is. Read Philippians 3 carefully, read Galatians 5, Read Hebrews 6 - heck, read the Gospels! Jesus is so clear. Paul clearly teaches that justification is transformation in union with Christ.
Paul also teaches that the bread and wine participate in the body and blood of Christ - that is, they really and truly contain his presence, his body snd blood, his life. This was foreshadowed in the Garden with the tree of life, where the humans had to continually eat from the tree to be sustained in immortality by Gods life. And the peace offering that had to be consumed, which also foreshadowed the Eucharist, as did the fact that the blood of the sacrifice cleanses the temple. The Eucharist cleanses us, our body temples, with the blood of Christ.
Now, The earliest depiction of what Church looked like in practice and structure 100% aligns with Orthodox ecclesiastical and liturgical structure. Nobody in the early church looked like an evangelical - literally nobody. And I can say this with absolute confidence because I’ve read through the Fathers and theologians of the church over the past 10 years. They did meet in houses early on when they didn’t have the approval of the Empire, but the Didache, the letters of Saint Ignatius (disciple of John the Apostle), St Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, etc. all give us glimpses of the Apostolic vision of the Church. We can even see this all throughout the NT. The early church inherited and baptized the synagogue structure, which is clear in Acts 15. James was the first regional bishop. Apostolic succession is clearly implied by the face that 1. Judas held an office that needed to be filled, 2) Paul needed to receive the blessing and right hand of fellowship from the Apostles, 3) that Paul and the others needed to travel to other cities to appoint elders (bishops), etc. And if you read Paul’s letters, over and over again he urges them to remember and hold fast to what they had been taught, and we know that Paul taught in different cities for months and months at a time. We don’t have all of his teachings written down, nor from the other apostles, but the protestant position would imply that as soon as the apostles died, the teachings of the apostles that weren’t written down no longer have authority. Yet Paul told them to keep the traditions that he had handed on, both written and spoken. That’s right there in Thessalonians. He also quotes from what are probably liturgical texts throughout his letters-hymns and prayers that were already written, and being used in the churches.
I could go on here for a long time, but the bottom line is, I’m sad that you’ve left the church that was established by Christ and the Apostles, and seemingly for very shallow, simplistic, and erroneous interpretations of the text of the Bible. The question i supposed you didn’t answer was, how much of Christ and the Apostles’ teachings and tradition can you reject and not be culpable? And if you say that “we are saved by faith alone, not tradition or the church” I would follow with: so, do you think somebody can reject baptism, prayer, church attendance, bible reading, etc. and still be a Christian if they “feel” nice about Jesus and believe he rose again? If you say yes, then you don’t even believe the Bible. If you say no, then you acknowledge that, though we are not saved by knowing the fullness of truth, but that the more things we know the more responsibility we have to consent to the truth. We either submit to God’s will or we don’t. Of course we fall short, but we repent and move forward continually. Therefore, it’s not surprising that the orthodox and Catholic Churches maintain that if you break unity from Christ’s body, you are on dangerous grounds. You might still be saved, but there is no certainty there - how can you reject the Church of the Apostles and think that’s ok? Christ prayed for unity. Evangelicals are not united. They don’t even believe a majority of what was handed on by the Apostles to the Church. They certainly cannot have the Eucharist or the sacraments.
I other words you never stoped being a Protestant
Praise the Lord!
@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 all Christians say that ?
@Ettoredipugnar Ding, 🛎️ Ding 🛎️ Ding 🛎️ Ding!!! You win the prize for saying the exact same thing others have said for the 15th time! “You must be a Yeronda to have such insight into my heart. Where can I visit you on pilgrimage for further spiritual guidance?” (Note to others: this is an Orthodox joke).
People come and they go! I pray the Holy Spirit shows you the correct path. See ya bro. 🌺☦️🌺
I wanna come ☦️
Revelation 5:8: The saints in heaven offer prayers from earth to God in the form of incense.
Revelation 8:3-4: The saints' prayers rise to God, and God acts on earth.
Jeremiah 15:1: Moses and Samuel pray for the Israelites long after their deaths.
2 Maccabees 15: 12, 14: Judah Maccabee has a vision of Onias, the former high priest, praying for the Jewish nation, and Jeremiah praying for the Jewish people and Jerusalem.
Acts 9:40: St. Peter invokes Tabitha.
1 Samuel 28: 15: King Saul speaks to the dead prophet Samuel.
One does not "pray to the saints or icons", one recognizes the saint in the icon, and silently asks FOR his or her prayers (much like if I asked you, Mr Terpack, to pray to God for me). That's all it is.
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"
James 2:26 " For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"
The works presuppose the faith which comes from God and is a gift. Where the faith is, there the works will be. The basis of salvation is not works, but faith which is in a person when they become regenerate. The Church is the worldwide body of believers. The Orthodox Church is very skillful in sidestepping the words of Scripture to make them appeal to a tradition that was developed over time, which also condemns those who are not members of the Orthodox Church. This is highly heretical and those within the institution ought to be ashamed for trampling underfoot the blood of the Son of God. There’s no emphasis on evangelism and making disciples. It is not biblical. St John of Damascus announces anathema of any who do not “venerate” icons. This is found nowhere in Scripture. Shame on those who produce anxiety in God’s elect; to them who insist on asceticism and have an appearance of wisdom. They will pay dearly for their rejection of the Savior and His sacrifice for their sin personally. To reject that is to be damned.
Former Baptist here, I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy at the beginning of this year, and it quickly became manifest to me that it was the best decision I’ve ever made in my life. I will never go back. ☦️
Same here and I 2nd that.
I felt the same way for some time…
@@joshuamkk, that's awesome! God bless you 🙏
good choice, but be aware, it is not enough to "convert". you have to study and "fight" your whole life. the right path is always the hardest. find a priest as your spiritual teacher to guide you and listen carefully the teachings. There will be always temptations and doubts.
Christ is Risen
I hear you, God bless your house and amen.
I watched your video, and I’m not sure about your genuineness. As a convert from a zealous Reformation belief against Roman Catholics, I eventually realized I didn’t know why I was supposed to hate them aside from concerns like Mary's worship and the “call no man father” phrase. So, I studied their beliefs, which seemed messy but not more than the Reformation or modern Protestantism.
Studying Church history led me to the Orthodox Church with strong claims. I compared Orthodoxy to Reformation Protestantism and found the Solas I held dear falling apart, especially Sola Scriptura.
PSA seemed troubling, while the Christus Victor and restored Icon models made more sense. They avoided portraying the Father as a cosmic child abuser punishing the innocent for others’ crimes. PSA also appeared contradictory to the Trinity, though it’s challenging to unlearn.
Icons scared me initially, but seeing them at a local Parish made sense. Learning they are not to be worshiped helped a lot too. After all, God in the OT had icons and images in His worship spaces like the Temple, Tabernacle. The Ark of the Covenant contained molten images of cherubim on top of it, the Temple had statues as well. Icons often serve as visual representations that help individuals connect with their beliefs and stories, in some cases, I have felt as if the Saint was there with me at times in such a way allowed by God. Icons were clearly used in the Church and the catacombs and even the Synagogues used them for a time before Christianity. It's true after persecution ended and Christianity became more public they developed more but that's not an issue.
I honestly have a hard time thinking of going to any other denomination after going to the Orthodox Church. I'm not sure what I would do if I lost confidence in the Orthodox Church and apostatized. I don't see any other denomination as an option, I just don't believe in them and Orthodoxy seems to be the early Church to me. The Holy Spirit said it would guide us into truth, and it's clear the Holy Spirit used the Orthodox Church in a big way throughout history.
I don't think you should let what that one scholar said deter you from the fullness of the truth. Maybe it would of been beneficial for you to visit other parishes and find one better for you.
Also I think you are taking some things in Orthodoxy in a legalistic spirit and it's not supposed to be that way, fasting, Icons, Saints, The sacraments, etc are for our spiritual benefit not bondage.
I wish you luck on your journey! God bless!
Also, I wanted to add Anathemas are not a damnation, but are there to warn and bring people to repentance. They are to keep people from error. Repentance is always possible.
God is the ultimate Judge and Anathemas are even made with that in mind.
One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
You should have visited EO church longer and never converted to it if the veneration of saints is so problematic to you. This veneration has been part of the practice of the church for millennia.
Great Point David Y, sadly some of these converts are not grasping the gravity of Apostasy from the true Church!
Why shouldn’t Christians venerate Mary (not the same as worshiping). Why shouldn’t Christian’s ask her to pray for us? Why shouldn’t we ask any saint to pray for us? We are all part of the family of God, whether living or dead. We are all alive in Christ.
How do we know they hear us ? Only God in omnipresent
that's not find in the bible to pray to mary
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Please check out Gavin Ortlund's Truth Unites channel, he addresses these questions in depth.
But Mary was not sinless, nor the Queen of Heaven correct?
Pretty immediately, the point you made about icons strikes me as a bit odd. You said that the Church does not have in its early history a record of an inclusion of icons, but that it does have a record of "the use of simple art to remind the Christian of certain spiritual themes or truths." Dude, that is an icon. That is what an icon is.
We also have references as early as the 4th century in the writings of St. Ephraim the Syrian and other fathers about the use of paintings and icons in churches and homes. The word ‘icon’ and ‘image’ were used in Syriac both interchangeably and also respectively to differentiate the two.
Gavin Ortlund recently wasted a whole bunch of people's time with an hour and fifteen minute's worth of pissing and moaning about the veneration of icons, so Trent Horn and Jimmy Akin decided to form a tag team and layeth the smackdown on him for two hours and forty minutes straight. It was quite glorious, and I'm sure that our brothers from the East will be able to get a good kick out of it.
@@mussman717word I'll check that one out...
@@kevinsusnar7070 We also have early Bishops tearing down tapestries with Jesus' image on in, condemning "Paintings and Statues" in Churches, etc.
@@ResisterCIO “The first phase of Iconoclasm: 720s-787
According to traditional accounts, Iconoclasm was prompted by emperor Leo III removing an icon of Christ from the Chalke Gate of the imperial palace in Constantinople in 726 or 730”
Meanwhile we have 1st century Jewish synagogue found covered in iconography. Early Christian’s worshiped in synagogues for the first 200 years. Catecombs also have icons… we don’t have physical Christianity before this.
Except images.
If any image is bad, then the Jesus fish is bad.
The Bible is more clear one whether or not images are bad.
After no idols, God commands the creation of images of cherubim, then a bronze snake statue.
These are images. So God’s previous commandment doesn’t mean you cannot draw a picture of a horse without sinning.
Jason, I have to ask you: Did you go through any kind of Catechetical Classes prior to being either baptised or chrismated into the Holy Orthodox Church? I only ask this because every point that you are now questioning should have been covered during those lessons. And then too, on the day of your anointing, you were asked a series of questions relating to the very topics that you now question. How could you have responded "Yes" to any of those questions then and yet now question them all after the fact?
The Service For Reception of Converts contains this vow. "This true faith of the Orthodox Church which I now voluntarily confess and truly hold, that same I will firmly maintain and confess, whole and unchanged, even until my last breath, God helping me. And I will teach and proclaim it, insofar as I am able. And I will strive to fulfill its obligations with zeal and joy, preserving my heart in good deeds and blamelessness. In witness of this, my true and pure-heated confession, I kiss the Word and Cross of my Savior, Amen."
Some of the other questions covered are these: "Do you believe and confess that the saints reign with Christ in heaven , and that according to the understanding of the holy Orthodox Church, it is proper to honor and invoke them, and that their prayers and intercessions avail with the kindhearted God for our salvation, and that it is pleasing to God to venerate their incorrupt relics? " Response: "I believe and confess it". "Do you recognize that it is proper to keep and to honor icons of Christ the Savior, the ever-virgin Mary, Theotokos, and other saints, not as idolatry, but that by gazing on them we might be inspired to piety and to imitate the deeds of the righteous persons represented in the holy icons? " Response: "I believe and confess it."
And surely, you knew about fasting, which is spoken of in both the Old and New Testaments and praised by Our Lord. He only condemned fasting when it was done to "be seen by others" and to appear penitent and holy "in front of men".
You seem to be falling into the pattern of so many Protestant denominations who believe in "Sola Scriptura" and that just reading and interpreting the Holy Scriptures for oneself are adequate. But if that were the case, then Our Lord would have said so, but instead, he instituted a Church for the benefit of His followers, so that they would not have to "go it alone" or lean on their own understanding and fall into error. And He clearly warned of the errors that would come down the line as a result of followers straying from the Path and from the Truth. In the 24th chapter of Matthew, Our Lord prophesied the eventual coming of "False Prophets", " And Jesus answered and said to them: Vs 4 “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. .....11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. "
In Matt 16:17-19 Jesus discusses the foundation of His Church after asking his disciples who they understood Him to be. Jesus answered and said to him, 17 “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” So Our Lord gave the Church and the Apostles the power to grant forgiveness and also to establish liturgy and correctly interpret Holy Scripture. And that is why, except in rare instances where God makes an exception; salvation is only possible through His Church and through his anointed ministers who He uses as vessels of salvation. Do not be deceived. Martin Luther opened "Pandora's Box" and as a result of his "Sola Scriptura" ideas, we now have hundreds if not thousands of false man-made contradictory denominations.
@pavlickrobert, you made great points!
@@Gregori-mi2vy8nc6y Thank you. But it's not like the Orthodox practices of venerating the Holy Theotokos and icons was something hidden in the "fine print". Our friend should have stopped the proceedings if he didn't agree with those concepts instead of vowing to uphold them.
@@pavlickrobert@pavlickrobert, I agree with you 100%; there are no secrets in Orthodoxy. The veneration issue should have been addressed and contemplated before conversion. I have had the pleasure of attending around 20 Baptisms in the last three years. I always listen intently to the prayers while reminding myself what it means to be Orthodox. My heart breaks for Jason; he is a brother in an apostate status, which is truly sad. May the Lord have mercy on us!!
Romans 8:14
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"
Mark 9: 38-41
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.
If salvation lies within the boundaries of the Orthodox Church alone, then is the Gospel useless to those who hear it from Protestant mouths? What of the millions who have been converted & baptized into the faith by Protestant missionaries who risked their lives & many who were martyred to bring them the Gospel. Was it not the Holy Ghost that opened their eyes to the Truth? If so, how could they who believed when they heard the Gospel be dammed?
It sounds as though he began to quesdtion the veracity of what he was told once he began to do deeper research in preparation for priesthood.
An Orthodox response to these false claims:
1) Icons
In Exodus 26:31, God commands Moses to put imagery on the curtain in the tabernacle:
31 “And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen; in skilled work shall it be made, with cherubim." The iconostas of the Orthodox Church IS the curtain of separation in the temple, and we have re-created the structure that Moses was commanded to create with images. Also, you do not understand the quotes from the fathers- they are speaking about mental imagery, not Icons.
2) Mary:
Orthodox do not "worship" Mary, we ask her to pray for us to Christ her Son. Have you never asked a friend to pray for you? Prots do this all the time, does this mean you "worship" your friend?
3) Faith:
Epistle of James 2:19-22, 26 (Luther tried to remove James from the canon of Scripture):
"Even the demons believe-and shudder... Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works... so faith apart from works is dead."
Your understanding of Scripture and Orthodoxy is weak, and because of this you have fallen away from the true Church into a modern heresy. I will pray for you. 🙏
I was Orthodox Christian and currently attending a Lutheran church. I agree with everything you said here. As I have said elsewhere, what I liked about Orth Christianity is that it is effectively very much fundamentalist without the self-love and stridency of false preachers such as MacArthur, White, Cloud, etc.
While it is true that some Orth Christians are uber-defensive and quick to react rather than respond, the same could be said for many Catholics, Calvinists and Evangelicals. Meanwhile, when some of those Protestants who attack the OC with false accusations, it should only be expected that Orthodox Christians will turn their challenge back on those same assailants.
It’s wrong to ask dead people to pray for you. That’s very different from asking a living friend to pray for you.😂
What makes those guys false teachers?
@@BlueSky-pn1mr if you say "dead people" it means that you have nothing understand about Christianity.
@@BlueSky-pn1mrChristians are alive in Christ, our God is a God of the living not the dead
first century synagogues have been found with icons and statues. first century apostles were mostly jews...ergo very likely apostolic
early christians were persecuted, so they did everything in secret. you can't do that with icons and statues, so they minimized them with symbols.
"icons appeared around the 4th century" - ya, you mean when it was no longer a crime in Rome? what a coincidence...
EO do not have statues. We have painted/written icons. Those people who write icons (iconographers), even to this day, are not doing so out of industriousness but a calling from God. Many of our iconographers are monastics who have forsaken all earthly possessions and keep no money made but give it all to their community.
The only mention of icons/paintings by Augustine is that he heard of them in some Churches, and said they must pull them down immediately. Also one of the Early Bishops in France, before Constantine, tore down a tapestry with Jesus' face on it as idolatrous when he visited a Church.
This is why new converts to Orthodoxy should keep quiet and not make videos about their conversion or enter into theological debates. Protestants enter Orthodoxy with a lot of enthusiasm and that needs to be converted into true spiritual understanding before they open their mouth. They need to learn everyone doesn’t need to know their testimony. Stay quiet, humble yourself.
Amen. Us converts tend to have a "knee-jerk" reaction to our past Protestantism, which can actually be quite dangerous. Unfortunately the internet isn't the best source for meeting and understanding Orthodox people due to that reason. At my parish we call them "Internet Orthodox" and emphasize "ask your priest" online.
Religions are earthly. Mainly fought amongst by men thinking they’re going to heaven. Faith is a different journey all together.
You realize protestantism is the worst that thing that happened to the church?
Sounds like a cult, as someone who left a Protestant one. I was told by my priest that such discussions about theology are for the bishops. But the Bible has plenty of verses pointing to Jesus is teaching about his own mother, namely the woman who said “blessed are the paps”, which I feel admonish anyone who overly venerates the blessed virgin mother. Who is only blessed because she did the work of the Lord through her faith, not because she was any different than the least of us.
@@Antreus Even you admit she is His mother. It doesn't take theologians to realize that gives her a special place in the Kingdom.
Studying the scriptures is why I became orthodox
Same here. And history.
Currently inquiring.
God bless you, Dear Orthodox Brother!
Protestants cherry pick verses out of context, ignore the entire tradition of the Church fathers who interpret it and arrogantly think they can interpret it themselves. That's why the Enemy of mankind scattered them all in those thousands of denominations. You can't pursue God and salvation while you're debating with your own will and sola scriptura.
Exactly. When I first began studying, I appreciated that Orthodox Christianity is indeed fundamentalist without overly trying to be or making a social-political song and dance about it.
Make sure you actually read Church History and not just simplified summaries of church history with wide brush strokes. EO love to point to “church history,” but you’ll find it is not as simplistic as many make it out to be. This is especially true in the period before Nicea I. @elijah5791
Read into the archaeological digs of ancient eastern Christian churches. They clearly have iconography, as do contemporary sources in Rome.
That simply could not be further from the evidence. And before you say 'the catacombs', the fact that someone would use a crude fish symbol etched into a tomb as 'evidence' of icon veneration, shows there is no valid argument.
@@user-gv9my3jy4b, I am sorry that you are unable to comprehend archeological facts. By the way, if you ever visit the Sepulcher of Jesus make note that you are on Orthodox Property. We have many many proofs about our faith in the Holy Land, on the other hand, you have no historical evidence in the Holy Land!
I would love for you to take a brief quiz, it is a yes or no question. No answer is the wrong answer.
Quiz, if you say no to any of the questions, you are not in The True Christian Church!
Do you offer incense in the name of the Lord as prophesied in Malachi 1:11? For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles, and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
Do you follow Apostolic Teachings as mentioned in Acts 2:42? And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Do you abide in the Traditions of the Church as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:15? Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Do you “ μακαριοῦσίν῾ Bless honor Mary as mentioned in Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Do you have an Altar in your Church as mentioned in Matthew 5:23, Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Revelation 11:1? And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. If you say no to just one of my questions means that you are not abiding by the Gospel as it was given by Jesus to his Disciples, in return they gave it to the Church.
Via preaching and teaching Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be"ἀνάθεμα" accursed! How can we accept doctrines outside of Apostolic Teachings and Sacred Scriptures?
Thank God for the Message of Salvation through Jesus Christ the Lord.
You were Orthodox but NEVER understood Orthodoxy! I used to be a protestant heretic but slowly my eyes opened. The Orthodox church was founded by Christ, the hundreds if not thousands of protestant sects were founded by various men over the last 500 years. I hope Jason that you open your heart again. May Mary All Holy intercede for us.
Mary is not "All Holy": Mary is simply sanctified (hagios: made holy). Get your facts straight and try not to be so blatantly religious.
I appreciate your video. I'm a former Evangelical, now catechumen in the ODX Church. I'm taking my time and not converting too soon. I've been advised by a brother to not convert before questions are resolved.
And some questions may never be resolved. The question is whether I wish to do my struggling from within or from without.
My saying is: I don't believe 100% of what nobody say, unless it's Jesus Christ Himself.
I do not think there is a perfect congregation. Note, I said congregation not church. The Church Herself is sanctified as She is Christ's Bride. She does not err. And She is only One. Humans within Her, however, err frequently.
That said, I do believe that the Orthodox Church is the truest, fullest expression of Christianity. I don't say: the only true expression or the only true church. I'm not comfortable saying that. But I do think it is the tru-est.
To your point about icons an Origen's remarks, yes there was an icon controversy. It probably was there from the beginning. There were those in favor of icons and those opposed. That culminated in a major controversy that was not resolved until the 7th Ec Council.
So at most what you've proven is that icon veneration wasn't practiced from the time of the Apostolic deposit of faith. But the apostles and 1st century church would not have had much time or ability to make and venerate icons. They had bigger fish to fry: like staying alive and keeping from being beheaded. The 1st century church had to worship a lot in secret and against the law until AD 313 at least. So you wouldn't have seen them writing about or publicly displaying icons everywhere.
At most you've proven that icon veneration, as an established practice, did not come until later. Ok, fine. All that refutes is the Orthodox claim that every essential dogma was delivered from the apostles.
But guess what? The claim that every ODX dogma and doxology was delivered "once for all" isn't an essential tenet of faith to hold to begin with. You could've chosen to disagree with that particular tenet and still remained Orthodox.
The same argument applies to Marian veneration.
One thing that's helped me in my catechesis (going on 2 years now and I'm prob on the 3 - 5 yr track!) is to clearly define what the essential Orthodox dogmas and doxologies are. That is: which doctrines, dogmas, and worship practices are necessary to be Orthodox, and which aren't. For this, I worked with my spiritual father (one of my priests). Doing this helped me put inessential items of faith which I couldn't yet swallow into an "awaiting further light" category, without forcing me to abandon the baby with the bathwater.
Convertitis is a real thing. We have the luxury as spoiled Americans to jump ship and pick and choose what we want. We're spoiled. We don't know how to stick with commitments, even when they're hard and trying and don't make sense. We think the grass is greener somewhere else, when maybe what our Lord is trying to instill in us is faithfulness.
Obviously you weren't happy in evangelicalism, else you wouldn't have become Orthodox. So where did you go now? Lone Ranger Christian? Non-denominational, "me and my Bible" Christian? Unitarian?
Until you cultivate faithfulness, you will likely continue to hop around, looking for the "perfect" congregation. I got news for you: it doesn't exist.
On your third point about justification. You actually never left Evangelicalism on this one. As you must know, the Orthodox define justification quite differently than the standard, Protestant (really Baptist) way you defined it. Justification is not primarily a legal term in Orthodoxy. Thus, we don't define it as "being declared righteous," or "being made right with God," as you did. So, what makes you confident that your post-Reformation, post- Lutheran, "Bibel" way of defining justification is correct or in accordance with the way the great Doctors of the early Church defined it?
In fact, "Justification," like most concepts in the 1st century Church, in Koine Greek, was not a legal term but a *medical* term. Therefore not a one-time declaration or state of affairs but a process of healing that is part and parcel of salvation itself.
God bless you on your journey brother. I would not be one to say that you have "apostasized". I don't like to throw around epithets like that. I try to keep my eyes on my own plate. And those who are not against us are for us, our Lord said. And Florovsky, a prominent ODX theologian, said that all who profess faith in Christ as the Son of God have a true, ontological bond, whether we are in different "churches" or not.
Only one Gospel:
Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of God (ELOHIM).
Sincere question how do you feel about the constant veneration and imagery of white Jesus? Especially you being a black believer?
@@Bunfire123I don't care for it but I'm over it. But I will say that the only places I've seen "darker skinned" icons of our Lord have been in ... you guessed it ... Orthodox Churches.
😊
Also it is important to note that many Middle Eastern peoples are quite fair skinned, even many North African ethnicities.
Very well stated!
@@qwerty-so6ml Can you give me the Bible Chapter and verse for your statement?
The funny thing is that about the time you posted this video, my wife and I came INTO the Orthodox Church, along with 4 other catechumens in our parish.
I’ve got to be honest here, friend, if you were a catechumen and spent time taking classes in Orthodox theology, then you understood very well concerning the role of icons, Mary, and salvation. As such, you’ve put yourself in a precarious place and I urge you to repent. We serve a loving, forgiving, and merciful God. He is waiting to receive you.
Amen
What type of Orthodox are you?
He did, it didn't convenience him.
@@razoredge6130 Orthodoxy isnt about convenience
@@mariorizkallah5383 I'm saying he already studied orthodoxy.
Still can't get that little bit of Orthodoxy out of hmself, ending his video with "Christ is risen!"
Bet he didn't have that salutation in his vocabulary before he was Orthodox.
Its a very common saying in many denominations
Just recall some Arians came back, confessed of they're heresy, don't believe me ok just read the "Confessions" of Blessed Augustine
Yeah, the evangelicals do not say Christ is Risen on their new fangled Resurrection Sunday haha
It’s ok if you don’t agree with the Orthodox theology, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. The beauty of Orthodoxy is that we respect your free will.
Be quiet
speak for yourself buddy
@@maryc9312 Also your lying almost every Orthodox country has odious laws forcing non orthodox to acknowledge their heresy
Converts from Protestantism especially in America, need to first drop all their intellect and head knowledge and begin to activate by prayer their heart in order to gain spiritual intelligence.
God does not care about your worldly knowledge, it is all foolishness. Trying to understand Orthodox Theology from a worldly position will be impossible and will end with the individual apostasizing.
May God have mercy on those who deny Christ and His Church.
Sounds altra charismatic I must say.
“and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy MIND, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.”
JESUS in Mark 12:30 😊
I so often hear from Orthodox apologists exactly what I hear from other cults: "My mind is made up and I'll not be confused by the facts!"
I wish I had a dollar for every Orthodox who claimed that you should just believe and don't pay attention to actual history, reason, truth, etc.
"May God have mercy on those who deny Christ and His Church."
Pointing out the errors in Orthodoxy is neither a denial of Christ nor of the Church. It is merely a recognition of truth -- something that seemed to be kind of important to our Lord Jesus.
I’m not being antagonistic, but I’m genuinely confused. The three things you cite in this video are very surface level facets of Orthodoxy, it’s not as if they are in anyway hidden from even passive onlookers. How on Earth did you end up converting to orthodoxy if you find these things against your interpretations of scripture? Also, all the arguments you pose in this video are very standard evangelical taking points against Eastern Orthodoxy, it’s a little hard to believe that you had never had theses questions or heard these arguments in 7 years of being involved in both circles. Please explain because again I am genuinely asking
It was a lot longer than 7 years of being involved in both circles. Funny how people on the internet can think that by Googling they can know another person's life story. Your question has been asked and answered in other comments. If you were as thorough as you THOUGHT you were about looking into my background you might have seen that. Or perhaps that was in a reply to one of two people I banned due to their outright antagonism (and no, I didn't ban folks willy-nilly for having sincere objections, as a review of the comments will show)...so let me answer your question again briefly.
I received sufficient answers to my objections about certain elements of Orthodoxy and even if not everything was fully answered to my liking, I acquired enough of an Orthodox mindset in my formation, including acceptance of the EO claims of exclusivity and apostolic succession, that I decided to accept the whole Orthodox Tradition and trust "the Church."
I venerated the icons not just at the temple but at my home and in my car and believed in their sacramental nature. I prayed to the Mother of Jesus "Most Holy Theotokos" in the temple and in my private prayers. Even prayed to her with a shortened "Panaghia, "Panaghia," "Panaghia." And I accepted theosis as the correct teaching on salvation-especially as explained by Hierotheos (Vlachos) and my first Catechist. These things and many others (don't know what I didn't accept) I embraced so far that I completed a three-year Orthodox Theology program and accepted tonsure as a Reader and Ordination as a Sub-deacon. I went to Confession weekly and received the Eucharist often. With much effort I sought to convert Protestants to become Eastern Orthodox and tried converting my close family members lest they perish. So the idea that I failed to truly accept Orthodoxy and was a false convert doesn't make sense.
The biggest thing that helped me in not returning to Eastern Orthodoxy permanently was getting a real picture of early church history from "Early Christian Doctrines" by JND Kelly and other sources.
"very surface level facets of Orthodoxy, "
Nicaea 2 pronounced an anathema on anyone who did not venerate icons. To call icons and their veneration "surface level" suggests a, well, "surface level" familiarity with history and Orthodoxy.
Good point. Sounds like a poor catechism tbh
@philoalethia Try to consider that they’re not using “surface level” in the same way that you have interpreted it. By “surface level”, it could be meant that it’s a very obvious, “basic” part of Orthodoxy, that is not hidden and cannot be overlooked upon entering or being part of a Church. So the user is asking how he can have a problem with these things when icons are such an evident part of the church and one of the first things people find out about when it comes to what distinguishes Orthodoxy. It’s surface level not in the sense that it’s ahistorical or meaningless, but in the sense that you don’t need to be deep into Orthodoxy at all to know about it.
Mary said "all generations will call me blessed", so Jesus could not have been saying she wasn't blessed to the woman in Luke 11. Because the woman emphasized the natural blessedness inherit in all mothers, Jesus is telling the crowd that there is a supernatural element at work too: hearing and keeping God's word. While that is true for anyone, how much MORE is that true for Mary, who said yes to God upon hearing his voice at the annunciation? Mary not just obeyed God, but in THIS act freely undertaken, she permitted God save all of humanity. Eve said "no" to God's word, but Mary said "yes", and just as it was through Eve's "no" that the world fell, it was through Mary's "yes" that the world was redeemed.
Im leaving Protestant evangelicalism. I am an Ordained Minister. I am converting to Orthodoxy. I find an interesting phenomenon, Many Protestant ministers and Evangelical ministers doing the same.
@GladioUmbra
if I can help you in any way let me know. I will provide a way for you to contact me. I could actually send you immaterial that would help you in your journey
And many aren't and being emboldened by Protestant evangelicalism by embracing the true Gospel. All the churches are sick. It's sad to see many turn to a man-made solution, apart from the raw Gospel.
I almost become Jehovah Witness, but i realized what kind of cult that is. Now I am on my way learning about orthodoxy. What I can say what I felt on evening prayer, and on divine liturgy I didn't feel in my life. Such a joy and happpines
@@mmr1137 May the Lord bless your journey in Orthodoxy!
I'm always amused when someone says things like "Orthodox are wrong because in the Bible it says..." It would be actually funny if it wasn't also kind of tragic, bleak and sad. Folks... I'm sorry to be the pedantic one to have to point this out but ... well, there were no "Protestants" for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and no "Catholics" for the first 1000 years... it's simply a factual matter that everything that you know of Christianity (not the heresies but including the schisms) CAME TO YOU THROUGH WHAT WE NOW CALL THE ORTHODOX CHURCH, and that is INCLUDING THE BIBLE. You probably know that the Bible was canonized by St. Athanasius. Have you considered that there is nothing in the Bible that didn't come to you through the Orthodox Church? This is a rather obvious point, but it obviously gets missed. If you think that there is some weird part of the Orthodox Church that is somehow out of bounds from the scriptures THAT THEY CANONIZED and have been custodians of for all this time, please, for all our sakes, think that one through again. Take as much time as you need. But think it through. You can believe how you want. But untenable fallacies like "Orthodox are wrong because in the Bible it says..." really do no one any good. Like I said, believe how you want, I just couldn't let that glaring misappropriated logic pass without a critical comment.
well said and amen
Eastern Orthodoxy is not simply wrong, it is HERETICAL and not only according to our ultimate authority, which is the Holy Scripture, but also according to history. Eastern orthodoxy exists only because of forgeries, lies, deceptions, political power. Your fundamental council, held in 787, is FILLED with lies.
Saint Athanasius, my favourite church father and a Saint I love deeply, held to a completely different canon of Scripture and he NEVER accepted the apocryphal books. Without lies, heresy dies
Dude thinks Catholics weren't around for the first 1,000 years 🤣🤣🤣
@@ionut-daniel-iosifmalita8543I will be praying for you. You have been deceived.
Thank you, Jason, for your thoughtful treatment of a difficult subject. I, too, have struggled to know what to do with the appeal of Eastern Orthodoxy. Much of it is powerful and of very deep thought. I was always afraid that my reservations meant I trusted my own thinking or was too enslaved to my Western mindset. I have learned much from Orthodox theology. But I have peace about my decision to remain in the Protestant realm. Errors abound it seems no matter which way you turn. But Jesus always.
I met this man at the Antiochian Village. Super nice guy. He rode back to the airport on the bus together the first year. I never forgot him. Very, very talkative. He was all over the map during the conversation. Super enthusiastic about the faith. So much so that something didn't sit right with me. So much so that to hear him in this video, he sounds like a completely different person. Have been Orthodox for many years now, and having taught catechism for several years, I noticed a pattern. People who are often the most gung ho and dare I say slightly neurotic normally don't last very long.
Jason is a very smart man, that is why I am surprised that he is parroting arguments that have been addressed time and time again. I sincerely wish him the best. However don't think for a second that his rehashed Protestant talking points are anything approximating definitive arguments. They aren't. He has a very defective and unbiblical ecclesiology. Did Christ not say to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it"? Did he not say that the Holy Spirit would lead and guide the you (the Church) into all truth? Where is that Church that the gates of hell shall prevail against? Are we to believe that until the Protestant reformation the Church fell into heresy? On what epistemological grounds does he now reject the Orthodox Church? Is it his own personal misinterpretation of Scripture? Why should I trust him or any one of the thousands of Protestant churches? Most Protestants disagree among themselves about every doctrine under the sun. They have zero historical continuity. I'm sorry Jason, you are suffering from prelest (spiritual delusion). May God have mercy on you.
You are what you accuse him of.
You drastically overstate the case. It is certain that practices have changed over the centuries. The Orthodox Church admits as much and embraces it by means of the authority vested in itself through Apostolic Succession. But to say that protestants have zero continuity isn't accurate. The Reformers made errors, but they did seek to remove accretions that had developed over the many years that are undeniable. They sought to return to the practices of the first Christians. Gavin Ordlund has many great videos on here and defends our traditions well. Peace.
Hello. I was received into the Orthodox Church in 2018. I was an enthusiastic convert and I accepted the historical claims. Since then, however, I have realized that the Orthodox are often guilty of mythologizing their own history. Much of our theology is thinly-veiled neoplatonism. As an exercise, read Elder Emphraim's biography of St. Joseph the Hesychast alongside Plotinus's Enneads.
Historically, many of our councils were influenced by Byzantine political intrigue. Nothing much has changed in the present day. It's a sad fact that many of our churches are willing to play handmaid to brutal dictatorships. Putin's Russia is a case in point; but the same could be said of Romania, Syria, Serbia, etc.
We need to stop glamorizing our past, be honest, and answer tough doctrinal questions.
@@miguelcastro5727 I converted in 2020. I agree with you. I’m still Orthodox, but I’m realizing more and more that things are simply not as black and white as I assumed they’d be.
To imagine that God will condemn those who honor Jesus’ mother and deem it idolatry is just a concept I cannot understand. To honor your father and mother is a commandment of God and well… Jesus is God as he is human. To honor Mary would seem to hit the mark. Not to mention Mary was a saint that helped establish the faith. A great model of chastity of whom the world absolutely needs
Amen++++
Of course Theotokos is the highest of Saints for even the ANGEL GABRIEL called her blessed - second Eve
Adam- first created man
God took flesh from Mary (Theotokos) and became Man- second Adam UNCREATED - for this Mary Theotokos is prefigured ma y times in the Old Testament - for She hast given birth to Our Lord Saviour Jesus Christ+++
“…I cannot understand” Proverbs 3:5-6
“To honor Mary…”Matthew 12:48-50
Of course Mary was blessed and used in an unmatched way. She literally gave birth to the Savior.
But, while God blessed Mary, she was a sinner (Romans 3:23; 1John1:8-10). God shows no favoritism (Romans 2:11). This would also include Mary (Matthew 12:48-50)
@@OftheDay777 I just spent an hour on r/OrthodoxChristianity. I think, before you talk about inconsistencies in all of Protestantism, you need to clean your own house first. At least Protestants admit that we differ on minor issues. Eastern Orthodox lie about their unity.
You all claim to be the authors of the Bible. That means that their should be consistency between “your” Bible and your church fathers. Where, in “your” Bible (chapter and verse, does the Bible command believers to venerate Marry?
@@leightonmoncada4934the Church doesn’t go entirely on scripture.
The Virgin Mary Theotokos is a mother and woman for all occasions. She was told the Gospel in the Annunciation, of God among us, via archangel Gabriel and she accepted that message. That makes her one of the earliest, or even first, Christians who had served God in her own way. There is nothing wrong with showing respect to her which is not worship.
“Nowhere did Christ order that even the briefest word be written about him. Nonetheless, His image was sketched in writing by the apostles and preserved for us to the present. So, what is represented on the one hand with paper and ink, is likewise represented on the other with various colours and different materials.” St. Theodore the Studite.
Always some “church father”, go with the Bible, stop with the images.
@@notyourtypicalcomment2399 yup, the church fathers that God used to but the biblical canon together.
@@ChristianWario and in the Bible, many men were instrumental in God’s work, doesn’t mean we should look to them so much they weren’t infallible. We should follow the word of God my friend. Orthodox quote the church father far more than bible.
@@notyourtypicalcomment2399 Where in the Bible does Jesus give sole authority to the Bible? Where is Sola Scriptura referenced in scripture?
I'm not Orthodox but I don't have any problem with icons, or veneration of Mary. They seem to be fundamentalist protestant objections by people who havent understood early church history.
As for the debate about salvation by faith and works, this mostly comes down to semantics. All Christians understand we are saved by God's grace, and there are certain nuances around fairh and good works. Protestants often confuse scriptures referring to the works of the Jewish law, with those referring to works of love.
Where I do disagree with the Orthodox is their belief that they are the only true christians, although they do concede others might be saved. This belief simply doesnt fit with the reality of the modern Christian church, in which there are people who love God in every denomination.
worship belongs to god alone
acts 10,26
The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered.
in orthodox church they venerate the saints, here we see that peter said not to do it. its a problem.
1 tim 2.5
in regards to mary.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
she is not a mediator as the cathloic believe and orthodox go to her for help. there is one door one way of access.
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
heb 9.15
We believe that those who have never heard the Word will be given a chance to hear it and God will determine their salvation after seeing whether the Word is in their heart or not. As for "Christians" who denounce Orthodoxy- they have heard the Word and either denounced parts of it, divided it, or intentionally perverted it, and they have no excuse.
James 2 verse 18. But someone will say “you have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works and I will show my faith through my works
Faith = faithfulness
Abraham was saved because he acted in obedience to God’s command. When God told him to leave his home country, he did. When God told him to offer up his son, he did. If he had only believed in his heart, but never left his home or offered his son, it would not have been counted to him as righteousness.
You are correct that works of the law or good deeds do not save us, but works done in obedience to God’s command are absolutely required to be saved. This is why confession and baptism save.
If we give to the poor, why do we do it? This is what God cares about and what actually saves us. Do we give for our own reasons? To look good, or please others, or feel better? None of that will save us. But if we give to the poor because God commanded it and He is our Lord, even and especially if we don’t want to, then we give in faith and that completes our faith and saves us.
nah man, I just need to agree with it in my head really hard
if you guys are concerning to become eastern orthodox just read the comments below, that should tell you enough about the denomination and the fruit it brings
So, no one can defend their belief system?
I be saying the same thing man. When I look at the spiritual state of Catholics, or people who are of the Eastern Orthodox denomination it is very alarming. I question, where is their fruit? Character? Holiness? Hunger for God? Love? Everything is merely outward. But inwardly I don’t see fruit of the Holy Spirit being expressed. Having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. Honoring God with their lips but their heart being far from Him. In vain worshipping God, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.
“Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
Matthew 23:28 NLT
You guys are literally basing your idea of orthodoxy on what you see from TH-cam comment warriors, who are notoriously terrible no matter what the topic being defended is. So tired of people attacking this strawman of “orthobros”. You have no idea who or what is behind these comments. If you want to investigate the fruits of orthodoxy do yourself a favor and get offline. Do some actual research of your own volition.
Also, protestants love to play “poor little victim” or “the reasonable, nice guy” any time protestantism is under fire online in order to make orthodox or catholics look like these raving, fire and brimstone lunatics. That thin veil may work to hide behind for some naive people reading through the comment section, but everyone else has seen it enough times to know exactly how disingenuous it is.
Took the words out of my mouth. I’ve never experienced people so obnoxious and full of themselves as the orthobros. 🤢
Hi Jason,
I'm sad to see this, but I wanted to let you know that Craig Truglia and Suan Sonna have two separate projects regarding the icon (and their veneration) question, so it's something to keep your eyes open for.
I pray you come back to the Church.
Will keep my eyes open…
Orthodoxy is the ultimate truth! All of It is the Eucharistic Presence of the Trinity. Let's take Icons for instance: they are venerated not just as symbols (solely representational), but as leading one to the apophatic Presence of the scene it's depicting. Let's take a look at the Sinai-Christ icon: it shows the dual nature of Christ, the left side of His Face is the embattled warrior who dies and goes to hell, so all may have immortality. The right side is the God-man of Love, Light, and Truth, where Jesus opens His arms to love up on the whole world! Yet, where does this icon really take us? To the Place of our Father in Heaven. And these are already too many words, because if you ask an Orthodox man where Heaven's seat of the Trinity is located, he'll tell you, "I don't know", and even further, this Orthodox man loves the Trinity with all his heart and soul, within himself!
Orthodox church does not have the final authority ,scripture does , the Bible is the ultimate authority, not the orthodox church, Jesus never said to venerate icons or pray to Mary,,Paul ,the deciples never said pray for the dead , show me the scriptures for the orthodox position,
@@johnbostic4063 Neither can we argue our way to salvation, good friend in Christ!
@@johnbostic4063 When ye are outside of Orthodoxy, ye cannot understand it, and when ye are in it, ye cannot explain it! But, Orthodoxy is a single harmonious whole, a melody of theology!
Jesus is the ultimate truth. Salvation is so simple.
@@moniquewrites9046 Yes, it is so Simple, many thanks for the reminder!
To me as a Protestant looking at all of this, it looks like a massive pissing contest between the different Church traditions. I really hate it because I'm sure that there are believers from all traditions who are saved.
That’s part of the problem with the Orthodox Church. They say you can’t enter heaven except through the Orthodox Church. So it’s by faith in Christ with baptism and admittance to the church rolls for salvation which you can also lose. It’s got very unbiblical soteriology. Instead of by faith through grace alone.
@@jgonsOrthodox Christian here, that's completely false!
@@ourcarry215 can someone be saved and Protestant? Do they need to be baptized in the Orthodox Church?
@@jgons orthodoxy would say that baptism is a part of salvation. Of course we'd reconize our baptism as the only baptism. Does that mean you're going to hell if you don't get it? The official stance is we don't know, it's a mystery. That's between you and God.
@@ourcarry215 the official stance I’ve heard from many is that anyone who isn’t saved inside the Orthodox Church isn’t saved. That is a bold claim that goes far beyond the power of the gospel and limits Christ’s work. That is putting your faith in an institution about God in a way. It’s adding to salvation by making extra requirements. Traditions are important and should be recognized. But only when they compliment scripture, not when they contradict it.
I am orthodox. I will pray for this man. He is lost
@@cozycastle, he definitely is lost!
Glad im not orthodox. Seems like a cult or sect. Let him work out his faith. Orthodoxy has lots of idolatry and unnecessary traditions. I'll keep you guys in prayer too
amen
How bizarre, we are on opposite paths. I’m growing increasingly disturbed in Protestantism. (Southern Baptist) and am fond of Orthodoxy. I have seen far too many of my peers display tremendous disregard for actually learning the nuances of the Bible, or worse, willfully distort the teaching to their narrative.
Same.
They uphold the idea of Sola Scriptura yet Protestants themselves so esteem yet they proof-text the Scripturea to the point they lose all contextual meaning.
I would recommend you look into the Lutheran church. Any LCMS, WELS, or AALC should do well. Go partake in their liturgy. You can get a preview of the Church by watching videos from Dr. Jordan Cooper, or Rev. Bryan Wolfmeuller.
Just do not engage the heretics of the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America). They are none of those things except “in America”.
Same
I am growing fonder of Orthodox Christianity every day and long to join the church
Yep. I feel exactly the same.
I am not Orthodox, but reading about it. There are some spiritual gems in their writing. The Jesus prayer (noetic prayer) for one is profound and helps me feel close to God. I have made it an integral part of my practice. Their understanding of the Trinity is amazing (the little I've read). The discipline in their liturgy and way of life is inspirational. But I have to agree with you. I cannot see myself venerating an icon or ever bringing myself to pray to the departed/Mary. Thank you for your video, blessings to you......and to the people worshipping in the Orthodox Church.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Food for thought indeed. Orthodoxy has great depth in Theology and tradition. But there are steep hurdles for Western people to overcome when engaging in Orthodox praxis, especially if you have never been exposed to the "High Church" traditions.@@crossvilleengineering1238
Please be good Berean - - search the Scriptures to know what is true. God tells us in His Word that our hearts are deceitful above all things.
There's no veneration of icons in the Orthodox Church. If you look at a picture of your wife, is it the picture you're in love with, or the wife?
@@johnnyblue4799 I do not understand your statement. Veneration of icons is a key Orthodox precept, anyone who does not venerate and kiss and bow to Icons is anathema according to the Seventh Council.
@@ancientpathstv fake news. The Bible is not God's Word. It even says so, by pointing to God's Word (John 1:1). Never in Scripture are 66 books (the Protestant Canon) referred to by the name "God's Word." In modern vernacular, referring to the Bible as God's Word is an idiom, not literal and not true.
The Bible is words about God. And it points to God's Word. Try not to substitute the real thing for Bibliolatry.
John 5:39
Quite literally these things should have been addressed before baptism in your catechism , were you baptized orthodox and if so how?
JUST WOW! I am blown away by the hate and despair coming from all the orthodox folks. Jason has made very strong points, and unfortunately, instead of just praying for him because you feel he is fallen away or apostate, you all decide to light him up. Im glad to know that the oldest true religion is so Christ like. Blessings
@matthewshermoen4437, in your eyes we are in despair, wow, interesting. Trust me we are not in despair, in reality, we are saddened by the false attacks from a group of people who can't trace their history just 50 years ago. We are the true Bible believers you guys ignore large portions of the Bible, your arguments are based on emotions, not facts! I will keep it simple, that works best for you guys,! I will only list three things that you and your fellow heterodox ignore in the Bible, thus proving that you are Bible pickers instead of Bible believers!
You guys abide in a false doctrine of ῾Bible Οnly῾ instead of the Bible instructions to abide in "Διδαχῇ Τῶν Άποστόλων" Αpostolic Teachings. Acts 2:42 "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers".
You guys because of Biblical Ignorance, do not know the difference between Godly Traditions or Manmade Traditions. You guys look down on Orthodox because of your ignorance and your lack of ability to properly discern the Holy Scriptures. Nope, we are not in despair we are saddened that your heart is hardened. Do you understand the following word without looking it up"Παραδόσεις"?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle!
You have Altar Calls without an Altar, how silly is that, is the pulpit the altar? You guys should go and play with Roman Catholics and leave the true Church of Christ alone. Better yet you should be Working out your salvation instead of throwing false accusations at a group you know nothing about. But, get this if you were to tell me which Protestant Sect you belong to I could put together in minutes the parts of the Bible you ignore out of ignorance and a lack of knowledge, I am up for the trial are you? I have 2,000 years behind me, how many do you have, 10,50?
@matthewshermoen4437 you said "Praying for him because you feel he is fallen away or apostate, you all decide to light him up". If you read the comments, you would notice that multiple Orthodox Christians asked each other to pray for him. I reached out to him as well, in the love of Christ, read the posts before you spew unfactual information.
Apparently you have not read all 2,000 comments on this video @@Gregori-mi2vy8nc6y . I don't expect you too either. But if you're correcting someone without having all the facts yourself, that is a problem.
@Gregori-mi2vy8nc6y I'm sorry if I offended you. I am not interested in arguing about the situation. The fact is that there are many comments that have been rude, mean, and in some instances with curse words.
I believe Jason does not deserve this sort of response. In my original comment, I did say, "Instead of just praying for him because you feel he has fallen away or apostate," not "all orthodox brothers and sisters should post comments about how he is apostate and needs our prayers so he sees how wrong he is." Big difference.
I am a Bible believing Christian who does not follow the ways of man but of Christ. I have seen too many testimonies of people leaving certain denominations just to be torched by their old brethren. I personally do not think we should be deciding whether some one is saved or not saved. The book of Samuel says "For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart." It's not up to us.
I personally belive Jason made very valid points that I agree with. I was raised catholic and understand some of what he was talking about, but by God's grace I was saved about 8 years ago and have been allowing Him to teach me ever since.
The unfortunate part about Christianity is that we are the only army that will shoot our own brothers and sisters in the back and condemn them to hell for not staying in line with our specific beliefs. God bless you all and God bless you Jason.
@@JasonTerpack Let's be honest my friend the good and the bad are on both sides. I am a product of amazing universities, I don't have to throw fiery emotional arrows at those who believe differently from me. But, I will speak on behalf of my faith as I expect you guys to do! As in any confrontation tempers sometimes flair. I have no problem with that, I understand human behavior. I try to express my thoughts and beliefs respectfully, forgive me if I have failed at this attempt.
Jason if you and I are honest we know that we cannot. change anyone's mind. on what belief system they want to uphold. But we can offer an opposing view, I don't know if you read my note, from a. a few days ago, but I thank you for allowing the opposing voice to be heard for those who do not have a dog in the fight, Such a person should be able to analyze both sides of the argument to ascertain what path they want to travel. This is why I often insert language from the original text for those who are empirically minded and can research citations.
I attempt to always be factual in my comments, for example, I often point out the fact that Protestants ignored the majority of the Bible, this is an easy verifiable comment. I also point out the issue of people throwing stones when they don't follow two important passages in the Bible in the original text.
Passage I Eἰς ὃ ἐκάλεσεν ὑμᾶς διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ἡμῶν εἰς περιποίησιν δόξης τoῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησoῦ Χριτοῦ ἄρα οὖν ἀδελφοί, στήκετε, καὶ κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε εἴτε διὰ λόγου εἴτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησoῦς Χριστὸς καὶ θεὸς ὁ πατὴρ ἡμῶν ὁ ἀγαπήσας ἡμᾶς καὶ δοὺς παράκλησιν αἰωνίαν καὶ ἐλπίδα ἀγαθὴν ἐν χάριτι
Passage II oἱ μὲν oὖν ἀποδεξάμενοι τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ ἐβαπτίσθησαν καὶ προσετέθησαν ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ψυχαὶ ὡσεὶ τρισχίλιαι ἦσαν δὲ προσκαρτεροῦντες τῇ διδαχῇ τῶν ἀποστόλων καὶ τῇ κoινωνίᾳ τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτoυ καὶ ταῖς πρoσευχαῖς Ἐγίνετo δὲ πάσῃ ψυχῇ φoβος, πολλά τε τέρατα καὶ σημεῖα διὰ τῶν ἀπoστόλων ἐγίνετo
I firmly believe that much is lost in translation, thus, the end result is bad theology. Despite the many Protestant experts who. have expressed their freedom of speech to attack. us, I find it said that these experts are unable to take a full in-context passage in Greek to use for an academic argument. , I can take it, but where are the experts in the Ancient language. Instead of addressing what the original ancient languages reveal, emotional darts are thrown, with no academic discourse just emotional party talking points. I am cool with that as well, I am confident that my responses and comments can withstand the scrutiny of anyone who is seeking the truth. Hint for you guys, stop trying to debate Scriptures when you are using a translation of a translation. I want you all to know, that I am not offended nor angered by comments, keep them coming, I wish just one of you defend your theology in Greek. As we know Greek is a precise descriptive language, without a working knowledge bad theology is the end result. I pray we all get our journey right, despite my disagreement, I love you guys. I am willing to bet that I can sit down and have a great lunch with many of you. May the Lord Bless you!
Here is the best example of the difference between Protestantism and Orthodoxy. When you become slavishly attached to a book, you don't see anything else.
He learned something about Holy Orthodoxy, but he never actually lived Orthodoxy.
His ego did not allow him to feel the fullness. Isn't that one of the most cunning demonic deceptions, when you think that you have learned everything and know everything and that you are on the right path, when in fact you are in the virtual reality of your mind.
He learned and understood 2000 years of Orthodox history in 3 or 4 years and found it unsatisfactory?
A few lives are not enough to fully understand Orthodoxy and our communion with the Lord.
I don't know if he had bad teachers or if he was a bad student.
Orthodoxy is the union of God and man. So many human lifes in one. Communion with God, of one person, but also of humanity as a whole, as well as the community of all people with each other. Orthodoxy is alive, dynamic, inspiring, full of hope and love, in one word indescribable, you have to live it to understand it.
This is all I see from the ortho bros. You just didn’t understand it. I’m sure that Jesus wanted His church to be so confusing you can’t understand it unless you understand It.
Or maybe the Gospel is just super simple and you need to remove you puffed up pride and focus on Jesus.
@@Jeffdurbla11 Billions of people in 2000 years did not understand, but you and the 150-year-old American protestant traditions, and younger, understand it better than the people who were with Christ. So much for pride and misunderstanding.
Not everything can be understood by reason alone. Especially not God's way of existence.
Orthodoxy is centered on Christ. Our entire life is Christocentric. Christ is the head of the Orthodox Church. The Church is the Body of Christ. There is no Orthodoxy without Christ.
The problem arises when, without the Holy Tradition, each of us interprets the Holy Scriptures in our own way, according to our own reason and desires. Therefore, although we all talk about Christ, we are not talking about the same person. In the New Testament it is also written that what is written does not represent all and fullness of spiritual life and relationship with God.
Holy Scripture can only be properly understood in the context of Holy Tradition and within the Church.
It's actually very simple, we just need to be part of the Church, the communion of God and man.
@@MrSale1983 again you’re assuming you’re understanding of the church fathers is accurate. The fact is you didn’t look deep enough to see church fathers regularly disagreed and the Orthodox Church is NO different.
The reality is, I love the church fathers but when I want to know where to base my theology I go to the New Testament books which were written in the first century.
Mark 7:7-13 King James Version (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
As with the Jewish leaders, so too did the Orthodox get the Gospel wrong in its pursuit of tradition.
It makes zero sense that God would lower himself and die on a cross ONLY to give us a possibility of being saved and oh, we have to somehow work that party out.
That’s NOT the Gospel. The Gospel is Christ finished it when HE SAID IT IS FINISHED on the Cross. No inages, no marry ALL JESUS.
You made great points!
oh shut up he is an expert in studying it. ur probably some convert to orthodox meanwhile i grew up orthodox and its man made traditions
fasting is a spiritual discipline, your summary of fasting is unreliable information whether you are Orthodox or not.
@rachelbrubaker6920. How so?
I started as a born again Christian (evangelical) visited southern Baptist and messianic jews who were also charismatic... By accident i entered a cathedral, an orthodox cathedral... agia Nappa in Limassol... That is how i started entering orthodox churches
Why do Americans shop for religion so much? They chop and change so often. There is a restlessness that will never be satisfied - no matter who you convert to next.
@EremiasRanwolf-q8z
So what you're saying is that leaving (or joining) a denomination has no bearing on its truth because people are fallible.
because we are in the wilderness and the places of worship have become personality cults and show business; so, if you have no proper foundation to rely solely upon God, you wander in the wilderness, believe me, it's scary
"I have interpreted the scripture leaning on my own understanding, and have come to the conclusion that the church, that not even the gates of hell shall overcome, has in fact been overcome right after Jesus ascended." Lord forgive you, guy.
You have interpreted, leaning on your own understanding, that the OC is the only true church.
@@georgechristiansen6785 do you profess the nicean creed?
@@johnndamascene That's irrelevant to this discussion.
@@georgechristiansen6785 Actually, quite the contrary.
@@georgechristiansen6785i trust the church and the Bible and not my western reasoning and feelings. That’s not leaning on my own understanding, that’s submitting to tradition of those who lived the faith
I am praying for you. These are not refutations to the Apostolic church. You should reconsider.
Praise the Lord brother don't care about these opinions of men but the opinion of God!
Icons are Holy images, the counter to it would be pornography. Looking at Icons restores our souls and pornography destroys them. They truly are a blessing how much more we need them today when something unclean is a click away.
You don’t need Icons to worship God.
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:23-24 KJV
1. True worshippers of God worship Him in Spirit and in truth. You dont see a spirit as you would looking at a human being. Or image. He’s a spirit.
2. God seeks for those who worship Him in spirit and truth. That is worship that actually touches His heart. Many people miss God because of traditions of men
I totally agree! Those who don't understand, accuse us of idolatry, or vain ceremony, but I can only speak for myself. And when I venerate the icons of Our Lord and of Our Holy Mother, I look directly into their eyes and say: "My Lord and My God...glory to you oh Lord." And to the Blessed Theotokos, I say: "Glory to you, Holy Mother. Pray for me that I might be made worthy of the promises of your beloved son, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." We are not venerating pieces of wood, but what is behind those eyes and what is represented in the icon.
God literally says not to worship icons
@@mariakalini4168 then don’t spend too much time looking at anything I guess🤷♂️
@@user-ex2bo6ub4g yah you're right, be careful little eyes what you see
I support the young man's impulse to seek, but he seems to have a limited ability to appreciate context of ancient statements. Overall he gives the impression that he was never a convert to Orthodoxy; rather he was trying to get "inside information" by pretending and never received any benefit or enlightenment from the sacraments. All of his silly arguments would have been easily evaporated had he ever achieved the humility to ask.
amen and amen, so well said, thank you
I’d be slow to lead people anywhere. You seem like you’re struggling and confused. That’s not the best mind space to be in if you’re going to attempt to share your journey so that people choose to follow you as a shepherd. You will accidentally have a wondering band of confused people from various parts of the internet identifying with your confusion and taking them for whatever spiritual rollercoaster you are on
Very well stated BryanKirch!
@HardCore_Islamist hahah love you brother :)
Thank you for posting this, I found it really interesting. I’m a Christian and I’m in the process of learning about the different denominations and how they differ, so this was really helpful. I’ve watched a few videos by people who have converted to orthodox but none the other way around.
I also see you’re getting a lot of negative feedback and I want to encourage you! You are on a path of seeking God and finding the truth in its entirety and I think it’s very admirable. Not many people bother to do that, especially in our faith! I pray that God will continue to draw you closer to him by his Spirit! In Jesus name amen
@krystallblake6058 Thank you!
@krystallblake6058, I pray your journey is fruitful. If I can offer one bit of advice, it would be, to cry out to the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truths. Often times people preach and state their opinions on what the Bible is saying, in reality, they are clueless. Sadly, many people fall into this category.
I put together questions for "Christians", the question states biblical facts and commands that are being ignored by many Bible-believing Christians!
Five Things Ignored By Some “Bible Bdlieverrs” Disregarding the Practice of. Using Incense as part of the Worship service. incense in the name of the Lord as prophesied in Malachi 1:11? For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles, and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts. Do you follow Apostolic Teachings as mentioned in Acts 2:42? And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Do you abide in the Traditions of the Church as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:15? Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Do you “ μακαριοῦσίν῾ Bless honor Mary as mentioned in Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Do you have an Altar in your Church as mentioned in Hebrews 13:10: "We have an altar of which we have the right to eat and those who serve at the tabernacle have no right to eat" Revelation 11:1? And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Excellent video. God bless your humility and willingness to continue to examine God’s word against the traditions of men.
@adechalus Thank you. God bless.
Once you realize the canon of scripture is itself the tradition of men, you will be faced with some tough decisions.
@@culpepper7665 The canon itself was preserved by God. It doesn’t matter how. He could use whatever vessel . He can use men or a rock. We have Gods inspired words not to the glory of men but to the glory of God!
He promised it .
Matthew 5:18; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 1:24-25; Romans 15:4; Luke 21:33; psalms 12:6-7
@@adechalus So which canon do you use, the one used for 2000 years or the one used for 500?
@@culpepper7665 The one I can find in the top drawer of any hotel.
Anyone here, read the book of Acts. That will Squelch this Mans dribblings.
Hi, I am an Anglican who considering Orthodox, just wondering why do you think Veneration of Mary, Saints and Angel is wrong? Such practice has been adopted by the Early Church since early centuries, don't you think God guide His church since the early centuries? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Not as historical as you think…
th-cam.com/video/_ytYX4dXpRo/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Thank you for your video. I could not understand why Hank Hannegraff joined the EO church. I appreciate you outlining these points about the EO church. You’re right on scripturally! It is evident in Paul’s writings that salvation is NOT by works. James must be taken in that context.
sadly, he did not understand the part about committing apostasy! The Orthodox Church is the true Church. Read my words closely and ask the question, is he now in the true Church or is He an Apostate, the reason the majority of you guys do not see this is because you are not a part of the True Church of Christ. This is easily proven. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions “Παραδόσεις/Paradóseis ῎ which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. There is only one Church that has maintained the Paradóseis translated as Tradition. Most Western Churches hate Church Traditions, they actually have an aversion to the word Traditions, yet they claim to be Bible believers. It is simple, what institution has maintained the Word of God and Apostolic Teachings for 2, 000 years. It can’t be Roman Catholics, they became Schismatics in 1054 when they decided to disregard the words of Jesus by innovating Doctrines, ignoring the following warning. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. The Church can’t be Protestant, a group who totally threw out all Church traditions for a Bible Only Theology. 2 Thes 2:15 reveals that there is more to the Church besides the Bible. We have Apostolic Teachings that the majority of Christians are clueless about. Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the Apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Only one faith Group has kept the faith as it was handed to them by The Apostles who received the teachings from Jesus. I can find “Διδαχῇ τῶν Άποστόλων” Apostle's Teachings in the Bible, But, I can find Church Traditions in the Bible, see 2 Thess 2:15, but for some reason after 34 Years of studying the Bible, I can’t find the Doctrine of Bible only! If the Bible tells us to maintain Church Traditions as well as keep the Apostle's Teachings and a group comes along and says, nope, we hate Traditions, we don’t need the Apostle's Teachings, we have the Bible that is all we need, is that not preaching a different Gospel? “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” Gal 1:8. This is why I am saddened for the guy who made this video, he left the Church of the New Testament for a different doctrine and Church traditions, he is literally in an Αpostate State because he left the truth for a lie. The word accursed in Greek is Aanathema a state of being cut off from the Church of Christ, I pray he repents and returns unto the Orthodox fold!
It’s interesting how many of these apostates end up being “pastors” within Protestantism
I'm surprised he's not selling a book or something, just making hostage videos
Thanks for your honesty and humbleness in sharing this video with those who will hear it. May God bless you and your family as you follow the Lord as shown in the scripture.
@PastorScottIngram
Have you ever wondered why there are no Ancient Protestant Churches in the Holy Land?
Was raised Orthodox here in Romania. I met God, that changed everything. Because I read the Biblie 2 times front to back in a year, and so to much discrepancies between the "church" and what the Bible teaches. I was about 16, and at about 18 I gave up on church and went on to find God on my own (I'm 35 now)... Jesus reveales Him Self to those that SEEK HIM, not to those are born in the "real realigion" and the "true church". Because of the disapoitment in church I ended up starting to drink, girls, and drugs. Was a "good guy" all my youth, because of strict up bringing (which I do not condemn, but it doesn't make you born again). But I still wanted God, and long story short, I returned to the Bible, and JESUS finally made REAL SENSE without all the religious bagage. He called me by name, and in a supernatural experience, He changed me forever. Belife and repentance, THOSE are the elements that The New testament calls FOUNDATIONS of the Faith. A baby can have neither. Repent and believe in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ, the ONLY mediator between man and God. That is biblical belief, and that is a belief that gives you eternal life!
@LazarAndrei-VNI
Thank you for sharing your story brother! Praise God for His Grace!
Cultural Orthodox
@LazarAndrei-VNI Hello. I am Orthodox. I apologize for the long answer. I am writing not to attack you but to answer on the statements that there is a religious baggage in the Church and that there are supposedly discrepancies between the Church and what the Bible teaches.
Yes, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5-6) because He is our only Redeemer. But the interpretation that Christ is our only mediator and Intercessor in the sense that we can pray only to Him to intercede for us before the Father makes Him subordinate to the Father because that interpretation suggests that He intercedes for us before the Father as if He is not equal with the Father. But that would be Arianism. He is our only Mediator and Intercessor in the sense of a Redeemer because He is the Person of the Holy Trinity Who offerred His assumed human nature. But He offerred His humanity and accepted it by His divinity together with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Otherwise there would be a dual personhood in Christ which is Nestorianism or an offering of the two natures which would imply a Monophysite-like split in the Most Holy Trinity. Neither of the two suggestions is true. The subject of the One Who offerred Himself and accepted the offerring together with the Father and Holy Spirit, is one because Christ is One Person in Whom two nature subsist, He does not have two persons.
About the veneration of the saints. The deceased believers in Christ are with Christ now:"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43). And before the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and the final resurrection, they are in a conscious state:
,,Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 *These* *all* *died* *in* *faith* , not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But *now* *they* *desire* *a* *better* *country* , *that* *is* , *an* *heavenly* : wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.“ (Hebrews 11:11-16, KJV).
They have died in faith but now desire for a heavenly country, i.e. they are in a conscious state now. That they desire for a heavenly country does not meant that they are not in heaven but means that their bliss is not yet full because they are nor yet resurrected in bodies which will happen at the Second Coming of Christ. They are vessels of the Holy Spirit:,,And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, *that* *he* *may* *abide* *with* *you* *for* *ever* ; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.“ (John 14:16-17).
That the saints intercede for us when we pray to them to do so and thus intercede for us, does not mean that they are omnipresent and omnipotent but that they can hear our prayers is due to the grace of the Holy Spirit because He abides with them forever, i.e. even after they have passed away (John 14:16-17).
The veneration of the saints is referred to in Revelation 3:6-10 says:,,And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews , and are not , but do lie; behold, *I* *will* *make* *them* *to* *come* *and* *worship* *before* *thy* *feet* , and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV).
Here the Greek verb ,,proskuneo'' which literally means ,,to bow down'' and in Scripture is usually used towards God with the sense of to give a divine honour, is translated as ,,worship''. The translation as ,,worship'' in verse 9 might be confusing because it is pointed to the Church of Philadelphia, i.e. the saints who are her members. But its meaning here is used in the meaning to venerate. Verse 9 refers to the veneration of the saints of the Church.
The prohibition in Exodus to bow down and serve in front of images, refers to images of idols, i.e. of false gods that are given divine worship in substitution of the divine worship that should be given only to the true God:,,Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;'' (20:3-5). The saints of the Church are not considered to be gods, wherefore they are not given divine worship instead of the worship to God. We pray to the saints which means that we pray them to pray for us before God. The veneration of the image is not a veneration of the image itself goes to the prototype.
St. Peter says:,,Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.'' (2 Peter 1:13-15). Here he refers to himself interceding for us before God after death.
Also to serve in Exodus 20:5 refers to giving sacrifice to the idols. The saints are not given sacrifice. Incense is burnt in the Church but it is burnt before everybody - those attending and to the icons of the saints because they are alive in heaven. Burning incense in the Church is prophesied in Malachi 1:11:,,For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.’’ (KJV). This prophecy is not fulfilled in Protestantism. Methodists use incense but only in vespers.
@LazarAndrei-VNI We are not saved without faith. But the sola fide concept contradicts Scripture. I will explain what I mean. Faith comes by synergy with God's grace and human free will. God’s grace works in the coming to believe - this is the so called prevenient grace which is that prevenient action, work of God’s grace that calls man to believe in God and precedes his free will’s consent to the calling:,,No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.“ (John 6:44); ,,And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:“ (Acts 18:27); ,,But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,'' (Galatians 1:15).
That the calling is freely accepted or rejected is evident from Luke 7:29-30:,,And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." Therefore grace is not irresistible.
So even when one comes to believe, this is a result of synergy with God's grace. That synergy is with His grace in its sense of energy, operation, active power. Romans 1:20 say:,,For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Here His power refers to His uncreated energy and His Godhead refers to His essence. The uncreated energies of God are referred to in Hebrews as powers:,,For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.“ (Hebrews 6:4-6, KJV). The powers of the world to come are the uncreated divine energies of God. The uncreated energy of God is referred to also in plural because its operations (energia in Greek) are different:,,And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." (1 Cor. 12:6).
Yes, it is true that we are saved by faith but as coming to believe is by synergy, then there is a participation of our free will in the coming to believe. Even in the concept according to which coming to believe is the completion of salvation and from then on faith must be only retained, then since faith is by synergy, synergy accompanies the believer throughout his whole life.
Of course, we cannot be saved without faith. But salvation is not completed once one has come to believe. All believers are called to holiness (2 Peter 1:15-16, 1 Thes. 4:7-8). The theosis (becoming holy like God by grace) is through participation of God's energy:,,According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.“ (2 Peter 1:4); the meaning is becoming partakers of the uncreated divine energy, not the essence. The essence is unattainable to men. 2 Peter 3:18 says:,,But *grow* *in* *grace* , and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.'' Hebrews 12:10, 14 says:,,For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, *that* *we* *might* *be* *partakers* *of* *his* *holiness* . ...14 *Follow* peace with all men, and *holiness* , *without* *which* *no* *man* *shall* *see* *the* *Lord* :''; 1 Tim. 2:15 says:,,And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding *she* *shall* *be* *saved* *in* *childbearing* , *if* *they* *continue* *in* *faith* *and* charity and *holiness* with sobriety.“
So reaching holiness by grace is necessary for salvation, wherefore the sola fide concept is not true. The apostle says ,,grow in grace'', i.e. the sanctification of the Spirit Who is the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29) is a process. The theosis is related to the topic of the works of faith that the sola fide view has a misunderstanding of and this misunderstanding is related to the misunderstanding of the essence/energy distinction of God. Of course one is saved by faith. But the works of faith are not ours. They are done in synergy with God's grace, so they are His works and He is still the One Who saves us. So the works are not an addition of ours to what Christ had done. They are fruits of the grace of the Holy Spirit that came as a result of Christ's Sacrifice (John 7:37-39). The synergy in doing the works of faith is expressed by apostle Paul:,,But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.'' (1 Cor. 15:10). This is in relation to what Christ says:,,I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.'' (John 15:5).
Ephesians 2:8-10 says:,,For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.“ (Eph. 2:8-10, KJV). But the expression ,,Not of works“ in Eph. 2:9 means works that have been done before coming to believe and that are not a condition for the reception of the gift of faith, i.e. the gift is given without being preconditioned by works done by the believer before coming to believe. This is clearly expressed in 2 Timothy 1:9:,,Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,“ (KJV).
As the sola fide concept is not true, it is not from the Holy Spirit because He is the Spirit of Truth (John 15:26) and where He is there cannot be false teachings. Therefore He is received not just when one has come to believe but after he has come to believe and through the prayer of the priesthood (which itself is a gift) of the Church like it was since the beginning:,,Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)" (Acts 8:15-16, KJV). Therefore, the Holy Spirit is received only in the historical Church with its episcopacy with apostolic succession. When I say historical Church, I mean only the Orthodox Church but this is a different and long topic.
There's no value in trying to put forth an argument, but for anyone coming across this video, this guy's representations of Orthodoxy are thoroughly incorrect. I'm far more sad for him that it was so misunderstood than I am blaming him for misrepresentation. But I laughed out loud when he said something about *earning* salvation, because that means he was only ever looking at Orthodoxy through a Protestant lens. That idea just doesn't exist in Orthodoxy whatsoever. Full stop.
But while all of scripture needs to be considered within its full context, I invite anyone to read the story of Judgment Day as described by Christ Himself (Matthew 25:31-46). In that version, people are accepted to eternal life or sent into eternal damnation based on what they have done (not just what they have believed), and neither those who are accepted or those who are damned had assurance of their fate before they got there. To suggest that we are saved by faith alone or to suggest that we have full assurance of our salvation is a contradiction to the teachings of Christ Himself.
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” 1 John 5:13
@@JasonTerpack I was Orthodox in my response and noted that we have to look at scripture in its entirety (and how the church has understood this historically, for that matter). Your response is normative for Protestants, giving a scripture that aligns with your doctrine and ignoring the scripture that doesn't align. I'm sorry that you didn't find Orthodoxy to be fulfilling for you, but I don't think that warrants misrepresentations of it. I mean no disrespect to you, but also want to protect people from inaccurate information.
Most Westerners won't get it. Here in the West we have so many blinds... Protestants and Catholics are indentical in their phronema as they are reactions to each other. Then we have the Enlightenment, and also this commercial culture that rushes everything and simplifies God, who cannot be simplified. I was blessed to be homeschooled and have access to the internet. I didn't have all this commercialism, legalism, and scholasticism drilled into my head, so I was able to overcome the nuances that Orthodoxy has compared to Western thought and understand that Orthodoxy is everything I already believed, but better. I hope for a day that Westerners figure out what they actually disagree about, because they always show such shallow understanding of Orthodoxy.
Matt 25:31-46 is about the division and judgment of the *_nations_*
_All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats._
@@inTruthbyGrace Emphasizing that the English word says "nations" doesn't change the fact that it's referring to all peoples. If the context surrounding the verse isn't enough, the Greek word is "ethnos" which, in addition to "nations," means "multitudes, peoples, races, creeds, generations," et cetera. Essentially, no matter the flag or culture, "all types/multitudes of men" will be gathered before Christ in that day. So this isn't in reference to a list of countries that have existed (Mongolia, Britain, Philistine, et cetera.)
Tangent here - this is why Christ calls out the Pharisees as a "sinful generation" (also the word "ethnos.") He doesn't mean "generation" in the sense of "from grandparent to grandchild," but in the sense of "breed of human," or "type of thinker." Because, before the age of Enlightenment, "race" (ethnos) used to mean "a collective of people with something in common," instead of something purely material and genetic. So, this gives a lot of depth to Christ's promise that "you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood."
Indeed He is risen! Thank you for sharing your story, Jason. All the best to you 🙏
This is a pretty weird video Jason. I am surprised you went through your rigorous studies as well as being tonsured as a Reader and then as a Sub-Deacon only to turn back on the faith for a variety of issues that the Church addresses in so many ways. The issues you have mentioned are quite obvious from the outset in Orthodoxy so something must have really changed within you or you were ignoring it when you began your time in the Church. I am sure you spoke to your Priest about this. I pray that you find peace in Christ.
The three points you raised are interesting because there are many Orthodox counter points available for each one.
On icons, Origen isn't the best to cite here. Remember he also was a proponent of universal salvation. Another user was bringing to light the Cherubim imagery in OT worship. There is a clear case for iconography.
Your points on the Theotokos were quite weak, there was really nothing here that had any weight.
On salvation, can you really suppose that a murderer who has faith in Christ will be saved? Surely this is not possible, surely his Faith will dictate his actions, his works.
See Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Doing the will of the Father = works. Works inspired by what? Faith. How could it be any other way?
There are so many better sources than what I am sharing here, there is such a wealth of wisdom that support everything you are calling to issue.
@@VincentTamer The wisdom of pagans to justify their idolatry. They go to all lengths as long as they don't have to respect God.
@@MaviLeb You really haven't said much of anything in your defense. Why not familiarize yourself with Old Testament worship? You'll find that the Orthodox Church has all of it's worship practices backed up by thousands of years of worship. What is your position?
@@VincentTamer Hindus also have thousands of years of tradition.
That doesn't say anything.
@@MaviLeb Ok, but I'm not arguing from a standpoint of time per se. I'm arguing from a standpoint of Biblical and Liturgical accuracy. You will find justification for Holy Iconography, Liturgical Practices and even the vestments of the clergy within the Old Testament. Everything you are having an issue with, as I'm presuming you are probably coming from a radical protestant background, is contained within the Bible.
You still haven revealed your position.
I will pray for you. I will pray for The Most Holy Theotokos to intercede for you. I'm sad you misunderstand so much. And i am an ex evangelical myself. Praise God I found Orthodoxy and live a life so peaceful compared to the trauma from before ..
@@Leelsabeth I guess your prayers to mary don't work. This man loves God and is on the right path! May God continue yo guide him in this new beautiful path!!!! Praise God!!
PS bible never gives mary tiles of omnipotent omnipresence omniscient. Sorry!!!
Thank you and God Bless.
My Christian son married and Eastern Orthodox women, with all the relatives. My grandson is learning of God and I hope in time to widen his understanding from Scripture.
Many things were not written down in the early Church because it was normal practice. The faith was also sacred and secret. It wasn’t like today where everything is talked about. Last, not everything was written down because most of what the Lord Jesus taught was passed on orally. In fact everything was passed down orally and later only some things were written. Eye witnesses in the early church were sought after over a written documents because of forgeries. They trusted the apostles. I left Protestantism for Orthodoxy. The historic Church is truly amazing.
Good Lent!
Having this level of iconagraphy and ritual would have simply been impossible in the early church, most "churches" you can still visit in Isreal today- they were often in basements and such with all but hte most rudementary decor. Anyhting that would have betrayed the real purpose of such a gathering would have led to almost certain death.
@@jakeroon, can you provide evidence for your statement about the inability of early Christians to have icons on their walls?
I am amazed at how easy it is for you guys to make bold statements about icons without providing evidence for such views. Archeologists have discovered Ancient Christian Churches with Icons on the walls just as Orthodox Christians have today.
You guys should do a bit of research before making bold statements that are untrue!
You love taking Bible passages out of context due to your absence of knowledge and understanding of the culture and Ancient languages of the Old and New Testaments!
Exodus 20:4 warns of graven images, because of a lack of knowledge this passage has been taken out of context to support a different Gospel.
Exodus 20:4 in the Septuagint makes the message of the word of God clear. By the way, The Septuagint was written in Greek, it was the Old Testament used by Jesus and the Apostle. This is why The New Testament was written in Greek not Hebrew.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Είδωλον which is translated as idol actually means a ghost a phantom i.e., an ungodly sight! When reading the Septuagint, just like the Apostles, it is plain and clear that God was talking about demonic entities, a god of this world, not a Holy Image! If God banned Holy Images, would have resulted in a prohibition against making The Ark of The Covenant!
Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work, shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Cheubims are angels, right?
We have a problem, Exodus 20:4 warns of graven images, it tells us that we can't make images of things of the heavens "οὐρανῷ" or earth "Γῆς"! The only conflict is with those who are unable to understand the Ancient Biblical languages at a high level! Thus, the reason you guys are calling us idol worshippers!
My advice to you guys is to work out your salvation instead of attacking Orthodox Christians who are striving to live a Holy Life, pleasing to God! Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I am very happy with the Orthodox Church. To each his or hers own.
I'm sure the priests of Ba'al felt the same way.
@@AsterionH Christ is the truth.
@@csterling77 Have fun kissing pictures of his mom
@@AsterionH I will because I have utmost love for Christ and his beloved Mother Mary! Thank you and god bless!
What is truth.
As I could never abandon Christ, I could never abandon Eastern Orthodoxy. Because to do one is to do both.
Christ isn't a building.
@@KLamki1Isn’t a book either.
@@shobudski6776 never said it was.
@KLamki1 during the Russian communist persecution, church buildings were taken. But the people who remained steadfast didn't need a big ornate cathedral to worship God. They did it secretly sometimes even underground. The orthodox practice requires priests not so much church buildings.
Amen!
Your logic about icons are way off.
Was the burning bush an icon?
Was the staff and snake an icon?
Are the "stations of the cross" in catholic churches icons?
Does God not know your heart and know if you worship an image?
Let me guess, you're someone who 'questions everything' until you start questioning the questions. Am i close?
Words are images too, wouldn’t anything about Christ in words be counted as graven images by this logic
Im a non-denom protestant (sadly) but from what I understand about the law of making graven images that would be in direct reference to the golden calf, to the tree in Jerimiah 10:1-5 that specifically deptics God and also which makes normal objects on earth diety.
As we see in the first and second temple there was statues of the Cheribiums and also images of trees, the menorah
@KingdomOfSound NOT CLOSE
The sentence “Abram believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness” is actually what caused me to believe that Sola Fide (as Protestants understand it) cannot be true. So, “it” was counted to him as righteousness. What is “it,” exactly? Does “it” refer to the good deeds of Christ, as Protestants understand Sola Fide? “Abraham believed God, and the good deeds of Christ were counted to him as righteousness.” This is clearly not the teaching of the passage. Faith itself is what is counted to him as righteousness, not an alien righteousness apart from his works.
And that the righteousness is not alien is quite clear in James 2. In verse 23, St. James quotes the SAME PASSAGE that St. Paul quotes in Romans 4:1-5, which you used as an evidence of Sola Fide! And in the next verse he says, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” The faith spoken of in James 2 is the same faith spoken of in Romans 4, not a different kind. He even says that Genesis 15:6 was not fulfilled until Abraham offered up Isaac on the altar, thus completing his faith by his works (verse 22). Why? Because this put Abraham’s faith to the test-God promised to bring up nations through Isaac, and how would this happen if Isaac was dead? But Abraham believed that God would be faithful to his promised even if he killed Isaac (Hebrews 11:17-19). Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac proved his faith to GOD (Genesis 22:12). This is not some kind of justification before men. Otherwise, why does James ask in verse 14, “Can that faith SAVE him?”
It is indeed faith that saves, not works of the law, but that faith is completed and fulfilled in works, and so workless faith does not save. Incomplete faith cannot save, just as an incomplete bridge cannot get you across a chasm. You may object, “But faith without works is not true faith.” Then explain James 2:26. Is a body without a soul a fake body? It is a real body, but it is a dead one. So, faith apart from works is true faith-but it is dead. “But James cannot disagree with Paul,” you will say next. True, and James is quite clear that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. St. Paul’s point is that adherence to the Law is not what saves (Romans 4:9-17), because the Law does not save, it only produces knowledge of sin and thus condemns (Romans 3:20, 4:15, 5:13, 5:20, 7:7-13). Even St. Paul acknowledges that we will not be justified without works (Romans 8:5-13). You may then object, “But I don’t believe that faith without works will save, because true faith always produces works.” But this does not agree with Paul in Romans 8:13, where it is the putting to death the deeds of the body (i.e. repentance) which causes us to live, not simply a noetic acceptance of Christ’s work.
Sounds to me like an Ortholarp got burned out and decided to start slandering the Church he never experienced.
@@zladtheimpaler8241 or maybe he feels peace in a different church?? Glad he made that decision. Blessings
@@roses993 next he will go to a hindu guru or godman and put up a video of how he found peace in an ashram in the foothills of the himalayas. LOL
Jason.... you don't have to do a video or give any explanation for why you chose to do what your heart feels. You are totally free to do as you wish. I have seen many Orthodox christians leaving the faith, some have come back, but no judgement and no comments. God bless you... 🙏
sadly, he did not understand the part about committing apostasy! The Orthodox Church is the true Church. Read my words closely and ask the question, is he now in the true Church or is He an Apostate, the reason the majority of you guys do not see this is because you are not a part of the True Church of Christ. This is easily proven. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions “Παραδόσεις/Paradóseis ῎ which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. There is only one Church that has maintained the Paradóseis translated as Tradition. Most Western Churches hate Church Traditions, they actually have an aversion to the word Traditions, yet they claim to be Bible believers. It is simple, what institution has maintained the Word of God and Apostolic Teachings for 2, 000 years. It can’t be Roman Catholics, they became Schismatics in 1054 when they decided to disregard the words of Jesus by innovating Doctrines, ignoring the following warning. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. The Church can’t be Protestant, a group who totally threw out all Church traditions for a Bible Only Theology. 2 Thes 2:15 reveals that there is more to the Church besides the Bible. We have Apostolic Teachings that the majority of Christians are clueless about. Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the Apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Only one faith Group has kept the faith as it was handed to them by The Apostles who received the teachings from Jesus. I can find “Διδαχῇ τῶν Άποστόλων” Apostle's Teachings in the Bible, But, I can find Church Traditions in the Bible, see 2 Thess 2:15, but for some reason after 34 Years of studying the Bible, I can’t find the Doctrine of Bible only! If the Bible tells us to maintain Church Traditions as well as keep the Apostle's Teachings and a group comes along and says, nope, we hate Traditions, we don’t need the Apostle's Teachings, we have the Bible that is all we need, is that not preaching a different Gospel? “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” Gal 1:8. This is why I am saddened for the guy who made this video, he left the Church of the New Testament for a different doctrine and Church traditions, he is literally in an Αpostate State because he left the truth for a lie. The word accursed in Greek is Aanathema a state of being cut off from the Church of Christ, I pray he repents and returns unto the Orthodox fold!
Lord have mercy! This is not good… The Church develops as like a dough rises. The early Church didn’t have this services neither. The Church is as a bride adorned for her husband. And He adds to her more and more jewelry. You are so misled… Lord have mercy!
Thank you. I think you are correct. Jesus was explicit about idols.
EO guy here. Blessed Holy Week! Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate the civil tone and the thoroughness.
I’m sorry that, apparently, there was no one in the orthodox community you’ve been part of that could address these concerns properly.
I hope you’re not taking it personally when I’m saying that from the things you said in the video it seems that you’ve actually never stopped being an evangelical christian, you just delved into EO. The concepts you’re using and the mindset is very typically evangelical, the angles of your approach are not the ones that you’ll find with most orthodox people. This is not how we approach things, and often times the mystical experiences of truth through the holy Tradition puts things into perspective for us. This is something you’ll never unwrap through Bible analysis. I know - for an evangelical if something is not obvious from his/her reading of the Bible, then it is bottom line suspicious. This is one of the reasons why I think that you’ve always remained one. Which is ofc fine, but then it’s no wonder you’ve ended up posting this.
Now with regards to the individual points:
.) Venerating icons is not “addressing prayers to an image” as you mention. It is funny that the early christian imagery you mention were resembling an icon on a computer rather than an intricate painting. Now think about why we’re using the same word for computer icons and religious icons. Yes, it is a link, a symbol (just like the lamb or anchor), a reference to something, but not the thing itself. And all orthodox know this. The fact that it developed artistically is exactly that: a development, not a “change”. And if developments are not allowed in church, then our evangelical brothers should not use electric guitars, microphones and such. You might say those are but tools to inspire worship within you, well, that’s the same we use icons for.
.) The “justification through faith vs works” is a non-issue for EO, because on one hand we don’t have the separate concepts of justification and sanctification, we simply have theosis, and because the orthodox teaching is not saying you can make up for faith with works. It warns that faith without works is dead (ie. if your faith doesn’t move you to do things, you should be suspicious if your faith is real), so works is a byproduct of faith. Faith is fire, works is light - to use an analogy. If there is no light, the feeling of heat may be a rash or from chemicals instead of a flame, but light itself can come from other sources without a fire behind it
.) Regarding the Mother of God. This is a very deep and long discussion, and I agree that the Bible itself is not giving as much detail as the Holy Tradition, but she definitely has a very important role in the orthodox world view that can only be understood holistically. This is why her icon is present in all churches. You can start looking into this by understanding the concept that depicts her in a garment made up of inverse colours compared to Christ. She is the mirror image in a sense that Jesus is God that put on flesh, and Mary is human flesh that was literally filled by God. She is the shining example of the voluntary obedience of the ordinary human person to the will of God. There is no one else in the christian world view that can illustrate this as much as she does. Now I understand the protestant cautiousness towards her veneration due to roman catholic PTSD, but the role change that they’ve applied to her is absent in EO. They took her out of her unique role and made her into some kind of half-divine creature, which breaks the structure of the christian cosmology. I suspect that this had to happen due to their idea of original sin, so they tried to free her from that, but ultimately one heresy lead to another.
I can understand that you would say this. Of course I never indicated the amount of time I spent in the Orthodox Church, that I had a Spiritual Father, that frequent Confession and Communion were a reality for me, that I went as a pilgrim to Mt. Athos, had Confession with Athonite Elders in Arizona, prayed Daily Prayers, Venerated the Icons, prayed to Mary and the Saints as friends, fasted regularly and worked on not judging others and forgiving everyone. I did not acquire the Mind of the Church, but understood the basics of the Illness and Cure of the Soul. At the same time doing this, humility was something I had to work hard at. A Holy Bishop ordained me subdeacon at the recommendation of my Spiritual Father. But of course, I just “delved into Eastern Orthodoxy.”
@@JasonTerpack I see. I'm sorry if my wording sounded condescending, it was my genuine impression, because honestly the concerns you've expressed were answered widely even here on youtube by orthodox clergy. And I also did not know your full story - thanks for giving me perspective on this. But then at the end I'm even more curious to read what you think about my responses to the indivudual points mentioned in the video (see my 2nd comment above).
Regarding icons, I’d recommend this video as a scholarly historical look.
Will reply to the rest when I can:
th-cam.com/video/_ytYX4dXpRo/w-d-xo.html
@@matfejpatrusin4550 I would have to say that I understand your point of view as well as the points that you made. It basically comes down to either having Scripture as the primary source for understanding truth or having Scripture as a part of Holy Tradition where it is regarded, but where it is understood in light of the the Orthodox tradition from the 4th-8th centuries. A person must choose which source to trust.
Ultimately we all choose what authority we are going to trust.
If a person looks closely at the Christian tradition of the first three centuries along with the New Testament on the various points of doctrine and practice, they will come to a different perspective than Eastern Orthodoxy.
I’m thoroughly familiar with basic Orthodox apologetics such as are expressed in tracts and articles. It’s not a matter of having a few quotes from the Early Fathers and a couple quotes from the Scriptures.
I think we need to look at Christian History as a whole, and at the New Testament.
As you appeal to the most ancient practice in your "reasoning", every practice objected to is still well over a thousand years older than anything "Evangelical"; and The Scriptures you rely on in critique were preserved, Canonized and interpreted by the Orthodox Church, Bishops and Holy Fathers as led by the Holy Spirit (..."and He shall lead you into all Truth:) over a thousand years before anything remotely "reformed" or "Protestant" reared it's heretical head.
In a word, nonsense.
Sure - preserved the scriptures and ignored them to create an Old covenant type of religion to suit their senses. We are to worship in Spirit and Truth, not sensually and man made tradition. were the apostles robed in black swinging censers in a holy of holies surrounded by images and gold. I'm ex-orthodox - it's a charade
"every practice objected to is still well over a thousand years older than anything "Evangelical" ... over a thousand years before anything remotely "reformed" or "Protestant" reared it's heretical head"
Well, that is just not true. Evangelical Christianity holds to the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the truth of the Scriptures, and countless other things that were clearly held to be the case in the early Church. Even if your false claim were true, it remains the case that the mandated veneration of icons (let alone their veneration at all) is clearly not an element in the historical records of the early, Apostolic-age Church. Retorting that "ya, well, you are ALSO wrong about something" doesn't make you (i.e., Orthodoxy) correct.
There are many good things about Orthodoxy. There is no need to lie about others (or it) in order to promote it.
You see incorrectly - I value the OT holy scriptures as God's writings to learn from but no longer comply with regarding ritual worship. I find it more arrogant that God does away with worship in temples staffed by priesthoods with inner and outer courts and special holy days etc etc (he even has a martyr to make the point and spells it out in the glorious Hebrews epistle) but men say 'NO! this is how we insist on worshipping!' and God, as it were, is supposed to like it. Writing as I am from Cambodia where there is a Russian Orthodox Church complete with all the usual trappings the incongruity is stunning. To obey is better than sacrifice. @sirmahakaal6389
You’ve mentioned a few reasons
I could never join this church.
Great video
Lord have mercy! Thankfully there's still time to repent i will certainly pray for you.
How much time? Can’t the end come at anytime?
So you think because he leaves the orthodox church that he’s not saved?? Have you guys gotten to the point where you’re a cult where you can only be saved if you belong to your church?? If that’s the case, then you’re the one who needs prayer buddy
@@BlueSky-pn1mr So can you be a Mormon and be saved?
@@JacksonScott-os7kjmormans believe they can also become god themselves. To be real with you…As a protestant who loves Jesus…feel the conviction of the holy spirit. Responds and applying his teaching. I think if your orthodox or protestant… we’re still both saved…and Thats because of Jesus. To be real I have a REALLY hard time letting the church have same authority as the word because the decisions we’re “of the spirit”. I cant trust a human on same level as the flesh cutting truth that IS the word of god. I will say this though I’m leaning into how ya’ll guys do your worship. Ofc I enjoy the catchy songs n singing to praise god but I also really appreciate the formal setting ya’ll have. One day I’d love to go to one of your churches in Europe n just fast and pray for an entire day n give it all to god and truly appreciate and love him n worship him.
@@stormraiders1172
I asked about the mormon question because many people affirm others will not be saved. However, the EO does not make this pronouncement upon individuals, only systems. They say the system of Protestantism is wrong, they do not make individual pronouncements of honest God-loving people just trying to get the faith right as best they can. However, if someone asks, they will kindly invite them to Church because they believe they will be fulfilled there by Christ in His fullness.
"To be real I have a REALLY hard time letting the church have same authority as the word because the decisions we’re “of the spirit”.
You trust the Scriptures because they are "god breathed", because they are inspired by the Holy Spirit, written by men. The Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth 1 tim 3:15, which will always be guided by the Holy Spirit John 16:13,. That same Holy Spirit which inspired Scripture is the the one directing the Church. The same source of your trust in Scripture is the same source as the trust in the Church, its the same Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit doesn't change, its the same source. If men can right Scripture, men can also be guided to interpret the Scripture. Luke 24:45.
The Church is the Body of Christ, metaphysically speaking, the Church is really, truly, physically, actually united to Christ, through the Holy Spirit. I have been asking myself the simple question "if I believe God can move mountains and create the universe, why can I not believe he can lead men to get an interpretation right"
In the EO view, that Church is also visible, its the EO. The way that the Holy Spirit works through the Church to guide decisions is through councils, like in Acts 15. When the whole Church meets and eventually agrees upon something, when everyone recognizes the teaching as true, they would say the Spirit has guided that decision, which to me seems like Acts 15, and offers more clarity than "just one man's opinion"
Watch the YT series "finding the church Jesus built" either 1.0 or 2.0, watch "orthodoxy and heterodoxy". Dive in, pray, and trust the Lord.
I am just a protestant looking into EO. I think I am going to visit an EO church soon my brother, look for one in your town, maybe one exists there.
I'm so tired of all this infighting between Christians, it's so juvenile. If you believe in the Trinity and that Jesus suffered and died for our sins so that we can have eternal life then you are a Christian. Everyones path is different because we all are individuals. Just seek the Trinity and follow what Jesus instructed like love they neighbor and don't judge. I see a lot of judgment here on both sides and it breaks my heart.
I can't agree more
no one is in any position to judge anyone else
@@Sam12_13 I'm tired of ecumenism
@@Sam12_13 It's not juvenile to point out constant sin in the lives of people.
Orthodox are constantly doing idolatry and thus it's not easy to believe that all of them are Christians, because they follow pagan traditions more than God.
It's important to warn people about doing things that are against the commandments.
No one who truly respects God would ever risk doing idolatry. Yet, orthodox try to justify it all the time.
This can't be overlooked.
@@MaviLeb Who are YOU to point out other peoples sins? And who are YOU to say that Orthodox people are doing idolatry. Must be a comfortable place to put yourself in Gods shoes. All your hellfire is for others? Stop with your narcissistic passions and look to what the true meaning of of Jesus Christ IS!
Thank you for this video.
Glad it was helpful!
The Holy Theotocos is mentioned in reverence by a short 'letter' of John .
The communion of Saints seems to me perfectly correct : we are part of one another .
This chap evidently left Orthodoxy for a low sort of Protestantism .
If you are made right by faith 'alone' , the 'alone' NOT being in the words of St Paul , then consider the Lords prayer in which we petition the Father to forgive us as we forgive others : this forgiveness of others is a Work , and a Work we need in the economy of salvation in which we cooperate .
I think this gentleman needs to relax and trust God more , and perhaps reconsider Orthodoxy or the Western Catholic tradition .
Disclaimer : I am Orthodox .
He's just reacting to some things, we do not know exactly what these hidden things are.
@georgemacintyre2858, Dear Brother, I agree with the majority of your statement. I am concerned about your suggestion that Protestants should consider the "Western Catholic Tradition". If they become Roman Catholic they remain in the same boat with different colors and structures. There is only one "Εἰς Μίαν, Άγίαν, Καθολικὴν Καὶ Άποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν· One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"! God bless you Dear Brother, Good Lent, and God bless!
I’ll just say I learned more from the comments than the video content.
you're wise
Acting like no Orrhodox Christian in history have ever read the Bible. Let me switly refure you. Im am a convert from reformed Presbyterianism. All Ive herd was appeals to arguments from silence concerning icons and intersessions. Considering that the Bible canon was only established at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), appealing to scripture becomes circular and non sensical. Concidering that the oldest icon that resembles Orthodox icons are the 4th century icon of Christ between St. Paul and St. Peter (there are older icons of Christ like Christ healing the paralytic) with the 250 AD hymn to mary, we understand that these practices we done before the establishment of the Biblical cannon.
Also, the condemnation of images the church fathers talk about is taken out of context and rather refers to idols.
But the rejection of these things have theological implications once rejected;
Rejecting iconography is nestorian and rejecting saint intercession is rejecting God being the God of the living. Even if the early church is scilent about these things, if there is not theological or acroptural objection to it, it cannot be condemned.
Now for the sola scriptura and sola fide arguments. The Orthodox prespective is in lign with both Saint Paul and Saint James's teaching where sola fide rejects the teaching of Saint James. Those passages you qouted of Saint Paul is aimed at the Jewish understanding of salvation but the works of the OT law. Paul never rejects works and faith working together for salvation. Saind James is quite clear that one is not saved by faith alone.
Saying you can’t know God through images it’s like saying don’t use your eyes while you’re driving.
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24 KJV
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
Colossians 1:15
The Lord Jesus made many believers through his “works” The Apostles also made convert’s through the Holy Spirt (works) to say one must only “believe” goes against what is in plain sight in the New Testament
saved by grace through faith amen
Read verse 10.
@@DKjellby what book and chapter?
@@Orange00000pAfter Ephesians 2:8-9.
Faith without works Is dead
@@YoxxSHIxx so you mean it does not save??? Then you have issues in you doctrine
Romans 4:5
King James Version
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Seems like this fella is selectively picking quotes and information to support his own views while neglecting others than counter it.
Also seems like he has a serious issue with the church and authority therein.
Typical Protestant attitude of over intellectualizing, seeing themselves as the sole arbiter of truth, and someone who is a challenger to tradition.
This critique is the French Revolution, and the church is the monarchy. This is why we have the problems we have today
it's pretty silly, really
Protestants over-intellectualizing?
I don't know that I've ever seen one intellectualize. 😂
@@mussman717word haha
WTH why is ortho bros everywhere in social media comments?? Where are all catholics and protestants??
I'm here. Just found this. I'm protestant, though I just like to say Christian. I've been listening to orthodox and Christian apologists explain their practices so I don't straw man their arguments and understand them better. I'm not going to argue with them about their practices.
I personally agree that it's better to not have icons. We humans tend to worship things instead of God, whether it be icons or beauty or money or power or being right. We can make an idol out of sports, subcultures, race, political affiliation, practically anything. I think that's why I fall on the side of not using icons. Also, some people (not all) seem to turn to their saint or the idol before they ever say the name of Jesus. I think some Catholics or Orthodox unwittingly favor Mary over Christ. I don't think they're conscious of it. But their devotion to her to the outsider appears to overshadow their worship of Christ.
Now we Protestants aren't perfect either. We have our own issues for SURE. Um just saying that these are some issues I can't get past and which land me squarely in the protestant camp.
They are atheists now or they suport lgbt.
@@minagelina Lol you protestants have Israel flags in your churches.
That's your icons.
Nothing unveiled here folks ...movin right along
Hey there! I mean no disrespect in this comment. It seems your criticisms are not actually backed with anything scriptural or traditional. The lenses in which we interpret scripture is through the interpretations of our holy Fathers and saints. When you remove the context from your interpretation of scripture, you can make the Bible say whatever you want and support any theological system. Christ gave us the Holy Scriptures through His Church, so we listen to those who studied under Him (the Apostles and those who studied under them, and so on) when we’re understanding His Word. As a practicing Orthodox Christian you don’t seem to fully understand the concept of Salvation in the context of the Orthodox Church and her practices. If you truthfully look for answers with an open mind and an open heart you’ll understand that there is backing, again, both scripturally and traditionally. I pray that you find the truth and that God’s will be done in your life. I apologize if anything I might have said came off as rude or condescending. That is not at all my intent and I truly wish you the best! May God bless you 👍
Why do you apologise? And why do you call the church "her".
@@KLamki1 From the beginning, the Church was referred to in the feminine form. For Greek speakers and readers, this is obvious from the Bible itself! Matthew 16:18
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. The word that is translated as Rock is as follows in the Original untranslated Greek Scriptures "Πέτρᾳ/Petra῾is in the femeine form of rock. The masculine form of Rock is Πέτρος/Petros, often translated as Peter. Also, the original word for Church is Έκκλησίαν, α noun in a feminine form, thus we call the Church her because the Bible refers to the Church as her! I included the Greek words for you to research. It is amazing how often you guys attack us without understanding the very Bible you read. May I give you a little secret! There are Orthodox Christians around the world who do not use a translation of the Bible such as NIV or King James, they read, and study The New Testament in the original Greek! Yet, you guys proclaim the Bible as your Book, history shows us that the very Bible you misquote is indeed the book of the Orthodox Church.
@@Gregory-Palamas1349 Orthodox church or should I say the Holy Roman church before it split into many "true churches" the church burned all the text that wouldn't worship the church and deify Jesus and Mary. Arius was the only one that followed Christ. Nothing wrong with tradition but it shouldn't come at the expense of God. Thanks for providing the explanation though. No wonder Godhead is out of order. You have people following a feminine church. God above man, man above woman, woman above children. The church is for the community, not to follow other men blindly. I see the same problem with the government and media. All seems to believe they are the truth while giving Jesus lip service and mocking God by praying to him and Mary.
@@KLamki1
Ephesians 5v22-23 : )
”For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,“
Romans 4:3-5 NKJV
What is the point you are making by quoting Romans 4:3-5? Thanks in advance!
@@Gregori-mi2vy8nc6y
Salvation/justification is accomplished exclusively by faith apart from works!
@@AllforOne_OneforAll1689 what is your definition of works? If they are all you need why does the Bible say the following?
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Is hearing the Word oof God a work?
James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? ...
Timothy 2:9-11 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Here is the problem, you must ask yourself the following question. Does the Bible conflict with itself or do you misunderstand the Bible? God can't be wrong, so you must come to the conclusion that you are ignoring the Holy Scriptures as well as misunderstanding the Bible.