Why are Islamic Societies not Progressing? - Ahmet T. Kuru -
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- Professor Ahmet. T. Kuru comes on The Pakistan Experience to discuss Authoritarianism and Underdevelopment in Islamic Countries. We get into a deep dive on whether Secularism is Islamic, the Ulema-State nexus and Modernity.
Ahmet T. Kuru (PhD, University of Washington) is the director of Center for Islamic and Arabic Studies and Bruce E. Porteous Professor of Political Science at San Diego State University. He was a postdoctoral scholar at Columbia University. Kuru is the author of Secularism and State Policies toward Religion: The United States, France, and Turkey (Cambridge University Press, 2009), which received Society for the Scientific Study of Religion (SSSR)’s Book Award. He is also the co-editor (with Alfred Stepan) of Democracy, Islam, and Secularism in Turkey (Columbia University Press, 2012). Kuru’s articles appeared in various journals including World Politics, Comparative Politics, and Political Science Quarterly. His recent book, Islam, Authoritarianism, and Underdevelopment: A Global and Historical Comparison (Cambridge University Press, 2019) became the co-winner of the American Political Science Association's International History and Politics Section Book Award and received honorable mention of SSSR’s Book Award. Kuru’s works have been translated into Arabic, Bosnian, Chinese, French, Indonesian, Malay, Persian, and Turkish.
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Chapters:
0:00 Secularists vs Islamists
12:00 Is Islam against Secularism?
20:00 Is there evidence for Secularism?
32:30 Abrogation Principle and understanding Verses
37:30 The Ulema-State unison in Sunni history
47:30 Why did Islamic societies not progress?
53:30 Is Modern Islam compatible with Modernity?
1:01:00 Democracy and Underdevelopment in Islamic countries
1:15:30 Peoples Q&As - บันเทิง
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Full of insights . Really enjoyed and learned a lot . Thanks !
I love how every muslim is so infatuated with their religion almost to the point of obsession. All this when almost an overwhelming majority never even bothers to read the texts.
I don't tink its fair to blame ppl for not reading the text, I have read Quran translations myself and they are super complicated to read/comprehend and learning classical Arabic is simply out of question also due to immense difficulty of such task. That's why people seek opinion of others(altho not something I condone as it leads to conditioning and conformism). We do however know that different scholars have different interpretations perhaps each of us can put them into consideration while we try to figure out our own path and use our own sense perception to figure out the truth for ourselves.
How many Muslims do you actually know? Like what fraction of the 1.5 billion do you know to make that assertion?
Do you know, Molvis stop them so that Molvi's business will be dumped off after they know the truth.
@@71espn well quite a lot actually. I have done my schooling in a prestigious school with almost 90% of my classmates following the Islamic faith.
The habit of my teachers and colleagues alike to present dawah to a disbeliever like me was the reason why I became interested in learning more about this religion.
In that case you can call me lucky. Because instead of relying on the clergy to do the research on my behalf, I decided to read the texts on my own. And let's just say that I was not particularly impressed with what I came across.
@@71espn Common sense?
Enlightening talk
@The Pakistan Experiance FYI there was a jump at 11:48 that I think cut a section of the interview.
Storm Fiber died and we continued the podcast recording the next day
What a wonderful video !
@@ThePakistanExperience cool, btw, open to coming on your podcast through a Zoom link, if you are okay with having one with a few 100 views :)
Wow man, just watched it after Arafat Mazhar's podcast man. Man you've always been the most daring and honest. I literally feel blessed to have found you just a few months ago. All credit to you and your sincerity. ❤️
❤
Only 25k subscribers? Pakistanis dont give a fuck abt such a good podcast. No hope.
The best podcast so far 👍
Finally someone is talking about this from Pakistan.
Lol ,
The reson behind the anti democracy movement in islamic world because they hate the equality of human beings. In islamic world when two people fight to each other they call themselves "Yahoodi" and "Hindu"...
Because these words are actually abuses in islamic world.they supposed to be inferior at all level.
It was the ayatullah Ali khamnei who coined the word to counter libral thoughts. Now became the big issues in islamic thinkers.
Now both Mullah and so called muslims libral want to fight against Islamophobia.
They are in same page.. both support hijab , Halal economy , Sharia court. Etc.
Both want to denounce the criticism of Islam and muhemmad.
Even OIC doesn't follow the International Human rights laws and don't protect the rights of women , non muslims , LGBT community etc.
It can be seen very easily in Cairo declaration. muslim brother hood founder Hasan Al Banna and Nazi Imam of Jerusalem Amir Al Hussaini ideology is also incorporated in OIC constitution.
It openly opposes great thoughts of equality , fraternity and unity as Nazi union had done before.
And so called libral muslims intellectual muslims are talking about secularism.
You know Jinnah , Liaquat and his league had called Gandhi ji , the leader of Nazi union. And Nehru ji a facist hindu leader , congress a facist council.
Why did you cut his point at 11:55 ? Where he was talking about majority of Sunni in Turkey and Pakistan...
Wow.. This is unique..
spoke about russian, chinese, western colonization
Didn't say anything say anything about islamic colonization
@@AKumar-co7oe Islamic colonisation Sonya thing since colonial is a specifically European invention practiced exclusively by European powers. Separate from imperialism we should add, and that was practiced by Muslims. Admittedly so.
@@uzairazhar2564 "Only europeans are colonist" not ra pist islam ic shi t st ains
Sound is back
Super-insightful at 1.75×
Came to learn, stayed for his cute accent 🥺
6:25 ab ye batayenge if India is a secular state or not.
Hmm.. with how much respect and humility Islamic text garner at other religious beliefs in their text, I think they truly deserve to comment on sensitive topics like secularism.
@Football-Pundit Though I agree with your point to an extent, I see nothing wrong in scrutinizing the credentials of the person levying a sweeping charge. That's my two cents anyway..
@Football-Pundit He said his elite friends in India says so that's why India no more secular! Girls can't wear burqa in classrooms in a state of country makes a country no more secular....that argument itself is pretty much inviting the attack on the person.
@Football-Pundit See, I'm not going to explain you how SFI the banned !slamic organization was behind this manufactured controversy! And how people ignore muskan Khan being relative of the member of SFI and how people simply ignored a guy who was st*bbed to d*ath for supporting uniformity but were crying for muskan Khan being heckeled at. If you don't feel wrong with it, we both have different idea of India.
Uniform is uniform! anyone supporting hijab/burqa isn't secular no matter how smart they act they are not smart nor progressive....these 2 guys are basically discussing ummah and why it's not successful...what went wrong.... thinking from this !slamic and non !slamic is the root cause of all the problems in i$lamix countries.
Head scarf is banned in specific govt school. Everywhere it’s allowed including the parliament. Please do the necessary research as academics
brilliant ghias bhai!
What happened at 11:54
Good analysis by he is I am
There is no blanket headscarf ban in schools and universities in India or even in the state of Karnataka. Most universities do not even have a dress code. Schools have the right to decide on dress code and those who choose to can ban headscarves, as it is not seen as an essential religious practice in Islam. Those who as per their dress code do not disallow headscarves, continue allowing it.
@@DWAGON1818 Courts in every country decide matters when a conflict occurs including issues involving religion.
Most schools in India do not allow people to be as they want to be. They have a dress code. Schools in most countries have
@@DWAGON1818 school/college is a secular institution. You have to follow dress code not any religious attire.
Those girls just want publicity nothing else. A simple student has nothing to do with religion.
And also, they started wearing few months ago before controversy
@@DWAGON1818 They are 18 y/o not 4-5 y/o little kid. A school/college is a institution where we promote equality. And if you are wearing anything apart from suggested dress code then it will not allowed to do.
A student should care about their study and future not about religion.
Those girls literally said that Hijab is more important than Book.
If she id really interested in wearing her religious attire then she should wear it in her home or join any madarassa where that is allowed.
@@DWAGON1818 trust me Hindus don't hate Muslims. If they did it would be really difficult to survive with this hate for both communities. Being a lawyer I can assure you that the argument taken by those girls in the court was a flawed one. The judge can only decide on the basis of argument that was presented before them. What you claim you have to prove in court they claimed that hijab is the essential practice of Islam which was not found to be on the basis of texts and other things.
If Hindus had to hate Muslims then they would be banned from wearing hijab everywhere. But it's only the school that they are talking about which is a place of learning and promotes equality that's it.
No sound
Aap k sawal ka jawaab
Jo k aap.ko hazam nai ho ga
Taraqi khushaali barkatain woh log/Qomain haasil krti hain Jo Apna Ikhlaq durusst
Dil saaf
Aur Amli taur pay Allah k ehkaamaat k mutabik zindagi guzaarti hain
So many Indians in comment section behaving like this issue is some kind of taboo in muslim societies. It is one of the most clichéd topics discussed in average muslim middle class households. Anti mullaism is also quite common topic in average muslim households. Level of ignorance about muslim societies is something else. Even cursory look at urdu literature will be enough to know abundance of criticism of maulvis and muslim societies in almost every other poet's/writer's works. Islamic intellectual discourse has move far beyond this clichéd comparison of progress in western and islamic societies (Hasan Nisar type discussion). Bhai muslim middle class mohalle ki gali ka hr dusra banda is topic pe baat krta hua mil jaega.
Good observation. But ultimately actions matter. For eg. in India, I see that very few middle class Muslims want to give their children high level of education. We have IITs which are dirt cheap in cost, but less than 1pct muslim representation. Girls almost none. No one prevents them from joining them. Why this happens?
@@vg-99 That's just false. I am from India. I am B.Tech from IIT Guwahati. Muslims middle class is very small proportion of total muslims in India. Majority of Indian muslims are in poor category. So obviously there representation will be less in academic institutions. Why would any one capable of giving higher education to their children will not wan't that. Most muslims can't afford the costly coaching industry to compete for IITs. Still they try their best. You will see a lot of coaching (obviously of low standards compared to Kota etc) in muslim middle class areas in big cities. Another factor for less muslim representation in almost every institutions is marginalization they face. Muslims are 5% in indian parliament but 15% in population. They are only 3-4% in police services. You can read a report on conditions of indian muslims made under Justice Rajinder Sachar known as Sachar Committee Report. It is available on website of minority affairs ministry.
Also IITs used to be cheap but they have increased their fees in last several years. Until last year a student in general category with family income less than 5 lakhs had to pay nearly 60k per semester. And for general category with income more than 5 lac had to pay 120k. I have heard that this year they have doubled tution fees. Still if any one qualifies JEE, they somehow try to manage the fees through scholarship, loan etc
They might be against mullahism but they can't say a word against mohammad lest they have a target on their back
That's a very good observation
We are talking about freeing human thought to get ahead as a civilization. Women are thinking human beings. They cannot be confined within religious barriers.
Now I understand in sanatana dharma brahmins in old times did not hold any land or power but were only responsible for teaching masses on religion and science and other subjects for free from age of 7 to 19 or 21 after that their varna was decided based on what proffesion they chose, and these schools run by brahmims completely depended upon the local population which was responsible for providing food and other needy things, and certain time everday students were responsible for bringing alms back to school for both teacher and themselves but later on after vishnugupta chankya the mastermind and strategist who founded mauryan empire against the invasion of greeks when he became part of government and was literally alive and in control until 2 mauryan emprerors, brahmins literally became part of government latern on brahmins and those of their schools were getting jobs and place in administration and higher places of power, which in terms made those gurukuls running on state patronage and then maybe due to too much power they formed a elite class status and under nexus of rulers also known as kshatriyas this corruption seeped into society until 7 th cenntury after empreror harsha we can see clear effects that varna which was parallel and changable upon task become very rigid, this joining of hands of both cleric and power a deadly combination that Mr. Telling in this videos dharmic castes became very rigid and today we see what what we see of hindus in India , a form of corruption which literally became the interpretation of religion
Q) why are islamic socities not progressing ?
Ans) Islam
end of podcast
Right ... The reson behind the anti democracy movement in islamic world because they hate the equality of human beings. In islamic world when two people fight to each other they call themselves "Yahoodi" and "Hindu"...
Because these words are actually abuses in islamic world.they supposed to be inferior at all level.
It was the ayatullah Ali khamnei who coined the word to counter libral thoughts. Now became the big issues in islamic thinkers.
Now both Mullah and so called muslims libral want to fight against Islamophobia.
They are in same page.. both support hijab , Halal economy , Sharia court. Etc.
Both want to denounce the criticism of Islam and muhemmad.
Why arent some latin american and african countries progressing??
Democracy and liberalism end of the debate.
No, selective interpretation of Islam by their leaders and no attempt to implement reforms which are required as environment changes.
Not progressive, one factor can be becoz the biggest proportion of their life is religion.
If u really want to a produce a productive conclusion you must have to call people of all school of thoughts to talk on such topics we have the biggest islamic political party of world the Hizbu tehrir who propose caliphate and denounce secularism call them also and get their analysis on the topic.
Jani no sound
@@ThePakistanExperience all good now
"bourgeoise class countries" _
the main theme of this discussion is incorrect. Islamic societies actually prospered much with the the same religious practices in the 10th till 18th centuries. What happened next was money never spent on education and colonialism striking off it further from their grass roots.
At the moment rich GCC countries have all the wealth of first world countries, but will spend those on luxuries rather than building the best universities in their regions.
Muslim societies sos not progress well into the 18th centuries. That is a lie.
Wrong.The Muslim World already had stagnation long before Western colonialism. Muslim World superiority did not occured until 18th century.
In a land where hazrat Ayesha rode a camel to war women were not allowed to drive...
You are allowed to marry jews and Christians but they can not be your friends...
I love TPE, thank you shehzad.
Shall we allow marriages at six with your logic? It can go both ways. Do you want to follow her footsteps?
And what can you do about it? Because as far as I remember, it's categorically mentioned in the holy book that you can't take Christians and Jews as friends.
It's not even a Hadith that could have been labelled 'weak'. So good luck going against the literal word of god that had never changed in 1400 years.
@@nacpatil well if you go to the early scholars of Islam, they got no issue with that as well. They even mentioned how to divorce a girl like that who 'never had her periods'.
It's a sunnat afterall. The messenger had shown the right way for all eternity.
@@nacpatil no , we should not allow marriages at 6. Yes i want to follow her foot steps. I guess the point highlighted was regression in the name of Islam which is not even Islam.
@@AvinashKumar-vp8qo i can have christian and jews friends and just be careful to not let them betray me 😃
What he said was that this verse was only for that specific occasion. And what i always understood was that jews and christians would betray us, Allah is warning us, not prohibiting friendship though, just like a suggestion. But that makes more sense that it was for that specific occasion.
Dear Jordan Peterson ko kab bula rahe ho
He asked many times but PE doesnt have time. He was begging.
@@nacpatil Ohhh😯 so you lived with one of them that you know that he was begging.
@@beautyzline5194 I might be telling truth. Its his last wish of life. He told me. Can you disprove it? Otherwise use commonsense.
@@nacpatil Look kid it seems like you didn't sleep last night so take a chill pill and sleep.
@@beautyzline5194 It cuts both ways!
so many hindus are interested in progressive islam, i am glad they are exploring new religion Islam in particular.
Yes people would love a progressive islma but are you insinuating a conversion here?
@@shrawaniverma4454 offcourse lol
India banned burqa inside school premises because it was undermining the importance of school uniforms. India didn't ban burqa in public places. Is it so hard to understand for some people????
@Football-Pundit bro school uniform has a purpose, which is to create uniformity amongst students. Students from rich and poor background wear the same dress so that one child doesn't feel inferior. Jewelry, expensive watches are all not allowed in schools in India.
Gujrat ke school me Gita kyon padai jaa rahee hai? Uniformity?😭
@Football-Pundit and talking about religious attires, only the Sikh turban (kesh) is allowed because it essential to their religion. Even the kirpan (dagger) which is also essential to them is not allowed because it can be dangerous. You see the nuance? Also no bindi, sacred thread which Hindus wear on their wrists, mehandi, hair color nothing is allowed in Indian schools.
@Football-Pundit Yes uniform do help in bringing uniformity and Hijab is not necessary requisite in Islam but keeping hairs and covering it with turban is one of the necessities in Sikhism. Don't compare same to further your shitty argument. You muslims/ pseudo secularist can go to any extend to justify your argument. You want others to be secular but will not follow same. Yes it Is true that quality of cloth can't be same but that should not undermine the attempt to bring uniformity by school authorities. With whom I make friend is my personal choice and keeping the quality in check is but it is universal fact that education institutions if they have defined a school uniform than it should be religiously followed. The girls initially agreed to same and then due to political reasons took a u turn and then blamed BJP for same is a standard excuse of muslims/ pseudo secularist to propagate their agenda. And is there a guarantee that black tent will any how provide any security which school authorities can't provide. Behind veils you become free to do what ever wrong you want to do, hence opened societies are far better societies.
@@abhishekchandra4484 Fully agree with you brother
Will get a lot of H in comment section today
Hindu here 😂
"Secularism is not just segregating religious life into the private sphere. It is rather the determination of the state of what religion is and is not, where and how it can be exercised. In terms of political theology, secularism is the murder of God by the State. The state can delimit, limit, exclude or curtail any religious practice, and thus has the power to determine the quality and quantity of the religious sphere as it sees fit."
Hasn't that always been the case...the state modifies religious tenets to seek it's aims...
Lol, you literally stole the from Wael Halleq and deliberately misinterpreted him.
Kindly ap urdu may programme kia karain kun kay ziada log urdu samjtain hain,aur join ko English samajh ati hay wo pakistani youtubers ko nahe dekhtay.
Ak wajah aur bhee hay ap ka accent desi hay.
oh mr ahemat my pleasure how mustfa kamal pash establish secular turkey , what is the quality to day most advance turkey on the various field without this hero mustfa kamal pash even he was miletry general he powers democracy in turkey especially for woman education what is their ideology to overcome all hurdle i appropriate this hero of turkey , even he vision that w w ar1lost young population he did not take any initiative to support any country w ar2 period his visionary thought is possibly to day for any democratic country? how he eliminate redial nature of religion thought my pleasure your comment on this point tanking you naresh joshi
Muslims in minority: we want secularism
Muslims in majority: what is secularism?
I know this is a progressive channel but why is this channel getting these Hindutva video type comments
come here to learn new stuff not get inducted into RSS Bootcamp and Hindutva video type Islamophobic comments
seriously annoying and whack
@@12thman74 haahaahaa... truth always hurts...
Instead of calling hindutva ideology..
Look into yourself first and watch this podcast carefully...there is a lot to learn for people like you...
Name 1 islamic country which has protected minorities?
U have any answer?
@@68sanket research yourself, plenty of Muslim countries are much more liberal and better than India in that respect
Turkey, Albania in Europe, morroco in Africa, Indonesia, Malaysia in SEA even Iran ranks better than y'all when it comes to many global rankings for women
Get out of RSS boot camp and get a life
No time for you lot, you have been fed too much BS in your life by your society
@@12thman74 name the countries??
@@12thman74 Kashm!ri H!ndus are pro India, and majority of m community of Kashm!r wants independence...is that RSS propaganda or a fact that says an uncomfortable truth about effects of demographic change.
His all argument is based on secularism of hyper secularism leading to Islamism as a reaction. When it is vise-Versa.
And secondly him saying burqa or hijab ban is Islamophobia is ridiculous, that practice itself is oppressive historically. Having a religious patriarchal law, system behind it. Him comparing and saying leftist support of hijab, burqa ban in France is same as in India is funny. The leftist in India even supports polygamy and Muslim personal law for Muslims which basically is against any secular law or norms.
Burqa/hijab ban is not Islamophobic? 😐
@@anambutt8127 It is - thats why I love US because of absolute freedom
nothing of the sort would happen here because people love freedom, they would allow prophets' cartoon (although unlike Europe presidents condemn it for flaming religious intolerance but still allow it cause they believe in freedom ) at the same time there's crazy amount of religious freedom too, whole texas belt is full of Madrasas
this is the kind of society I wish every country should aspire to be like not France,India or Saudia
@@anambutt8127 burqa/hijab ban in India is in schools the institution which has its own dress code. It’s not banned in public places. So yes it’s not Islamophobia. And in India the government since independence campaigned against the ghunghat customs in hindus in the name of patriarchal system. So was it hinduphobia? 😂
@@12thman74 The US also doesn’t have different civil codes like India has. I really wish India has secularism like US has which has uniform civil code for all its citizens. And has right to blasphemy.😉
Btw giving example about India,US,France ? Great as you too know Pakistan is even not worth mentioning with such progressive states.
@@anambutt8127 How come it is Islamophobic?
Islam has its own judicial system and government principles
Therefore secularism is not Islamic
The morality comes from religion and government without religion is blind in sense of moral values
If secularism is Islamic then where should Islamic system lie
In many hadeeth Nabi SAW said that rule according to Quran and sunnah
In Quran Allah also said that the one who rule against the principles of Allah is Kafir
In Islam there is no division In political and religious leaders
Jani Tavleen Singh ko bhi bula le
The issue of head scarf is very important. Fine. Are muslim women only the target? They need to follow all restrictions and no talk on why gents are allowed polygamy. The women are always scared in India as they fear that their husband will marry another one. Their is no scholar who comes out to stop this. The religion needs to be progressive. Instead the M women have the lowest literarcy in India. Even lower than the lowest class. But no one wants to discuss. Only scarf is the symbol of secularism and symbol of freedom.
Remove this hypocracy first.
Hijab is not banned in India, where do you find such idiots
School should have right to choose there uniform
Essential practice of religion are not restricted, hijab is not essential practice of islam
There are schools in India where hijab is compulsory part of uniform
Shehzad bhai, Pakistan mai rhena ka plan nahi hai kya?😛
@@ThePakistanExperiencejust completed the podcast Shehzad bhai, IT WAS REALLY GREAT :)
@@jam-ss2jc Thanks bhai
this guy would have been burnt to death if he was in Pak
hr jga mein Imran Khan ko tun'na zaroori naheen hota. Keep your ill-advised bias at home.
other than that point , a very decent discussion. Good job.
Turks being concerned about Indian muslims.....who are you pepple? We have more muslims in our country than yours.