god this is so much more rewarding than other videos that spend hours hyping up the experiment and then hours showing the process five minutes in, intro, concept, experiment, and we're looking at results : )
Hi Taren, I love your channel and in particular these field tests but you have accidentally reached the wrong conclusion here. Physics dictates a disc wheel will always save time unless the rider cannot hold a TT position in windy conditions regard less of speed. Actually the *windier* it is, then the more a disc saves and the *slower* a rider , then the more a disc saves. So why did you find the opposite? Its actually because your variability index was 1.07 on the slow (175w) disc run but 1.01 on the deep wheel run. A VI of 1.0 will always beat a VI of 1.07 on a flat (or near flat course) at the same NP because a high variability index means you are going under-average for much of the segment and then way over power to catch up (devonjstewart also correctly notes this below). Way-over power means your are getting a great aero penalty at a fast speed. It’s a little hard to explain here but the fastest possible pacing is exactly at the desired average speed (assuming no wind and no hills) in order to keep drag at the minimum. Sorry for the long message, I may make a explanation video on my channel if you want or feel free to reach out to me if you wish. bw from Alex at FFT. Keep up the great work!
I love the test, love this kind of content! I use HED Jet 9+ and Disc+ rear wheels frequently and find the disc is marginally faster for most applications and speeds, all but relatively steep grades over 5%. I think your deep section wheel tested faster in the first run because your disc AP was 165. Your deep section AP was 11 watts higher. While your disc normalized was 175, a good indicator of similar effort (also noting a 7% VI), average powers are a better control variable for aerodynamic performance. With a low VI, the two (AP and NP) are nearly the same, but for some reason you had a huge spike in variability in the first interval. Perhaps it was related to wind handling, and that certainly plays a subjective role in actual results for athletes. A disc is no advantage if you can’t stay aero. But purely from the perspective of measuring aerodynamic and rolling performance, respectfully, I think if you re-tested with equal average powers you may reach the opposite conclusion.
Absolutely terrible test. The road you tested on had so much traffic that greatly influenced your test. Your data is useless. Not to mention your power variations and braking.
Hey, Taren! Love that you spoke to the cost of such things- as much as I love triathlon it can be one heck of a money-pit if one isn't careful. So much to buy for so few seconds!!! Kidding. Neat video. Dug it.
I went to an Ironman where there was a lot of crosswind almost 11 miles/h wind . And it surprised me how many people I saw with disc wheels. …. Thanks for this video. It’s all I needed to see.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your final conclusion/recommendation. BUT you were riding on the shoulder of a road with traffic. The amount of variability that you get with cars passing you and giving you a draft is just way too much to be able to walk away with reliable data. At minimum you need a closed course with multiple test runs and even that is a bit of a crap shoot.
Vehicles provide testing on crosswinds, which is the prime anecdotal complaint of aero wheels and disc wheels. People constantly blame the disc wheel for killing them when in reality it was the aero front wheel that caused them to loose control of the steering fork.
IMO in triathlon very rarely will you come across a course where a disc isn't faster. Most climbs in triathlon aren't steep/long enough for the minor weight penalty of a disc to even be a factor, and as for the wind in my experience, being a small/lightweight rider myself, disc still almost always faster (especially so in crosswinds when it turns into a sail and you can tear that road up). I'm still always baffled why people think disc wheels are tough to handle in the wind your steering axis is at the front wheel so the depth of the front wheel is what will dictate your ability to handle the bike. Something like a 404 depth upfront and disc in rear will do you perfectly on almost every course out there - the 404 will be easy to handle and stay in aero no matter what the wind. Yes 808/disc faster but many can't control in the wind so pointless - unless of course you got the cash to have mutliple sets/depths and then sure pick and choose your front based on the forecast. Last I'll just add if the weight of the disc is really something people are concerned about: Revolver Helikon Disc - 1100g only of sweet carbon. With all that being said you for sure can't ignore the fact that when your ripping along on disc the sound it makes just makes you feel like a rockstar, I honestly think the disc sound should be listed as a cure for Low T.
I don't like the sail analogy because wind aiming towards your disc wheel front the front would mean you are now moving backwards based on. The sail analogy.
Constructive criticism: not sure you understand the concept of normalized power. As other have mentioned, this exercise would have been great if you would have used average power instead. Also, the effect of cars passing you will skew your results.
I really respect what Taren does but good lord - the idea that a disc makes you ride further due to wiggling is laughable. Sorry. My belief is this was a very false representation of the facts.
I remember that CEO of Swiss Side wheel commented in the Pacing and Racing podcast that disc wheel at 35kph can save something around 1 watt (tested in wind tunnel), if I'm not wrong, vs deep section wheels. This saving may increase as you get faster speed. For pro triathlete 1 watt saving is always welcome, but for hilly course and for AG athletes definitely is not always the best choice going with disc wheel (= heavy wheel). I recommend to listen this podcast. It has a good insights about aerodynamic using different triathlon accessories (helmet, tires, wheel and so on)
really useful video Taren, I was considering getting a disc wheel for race days so this was great to see the performance difference. (p.s dont think i'll bother with the disc now) :)
Hi Taren great work. I think you are wrong with your calculations. NP is an "invention" of Training Peaks in order to measure your training effort. It's not an indicator of how fast you will go. If check again your low wattage session, you will see that you are comparing 175 vs 165 avg power. That gives you the logical result to be slower with 165 avg power.
Hi Taren, I've just received your booklet preview (thx!) and started to read. Before I'm too far with this enjoyable reading, I just wanted to ask: Do you wish to receive any feedback regarding typos or so?
Lots of data.... thanks , I personally have a mental break down thinking about using a full disc as there are windy days I get scared with riding my 81 mm deep section rims. How a bout the vlog about using shorter cranks? You hinted about it around the challenge Roth videos!
Hi Taren I really like the paint job on your bike looks sick👌🏻 where did you get it done I want a custom paint job and can’t find anywhere online to get it done
I think that, once again, the results are skewed by the traffic on the road. That has much more effect on the final numbers than all the details that you made the same. Would be interesting to see results from a closed velodrome.
You should have been measuring Average Power and not Normalized Power. We want to measure the bike/wheel results and remove you from the power figures. Also, do lots of runs to get a consistent results, and get away from the cars. They blow you all over and can help or hinder your test. This should be no problem, just run the test again matching AVP instead of NP. Intresting results through..
Top tip - you don't need to use the chain whip to tighten the cassette!
You forgot to mention that biking with a disc makes you feel like a total hero which is worth at least 10 watts
I was thinking more 20-30W...
instablaster.
god this is so much more rewarding than other videos that spend hours hyping up the experiment and then hours showing the process
five minutes in, intro, concept, experiment, and we're looking at results : )
Hi Taren, I love your channel and in particular these field tests but you have accidentally reached the wrong conclusion here. Physics dictates a disc wheel will always save time unless the rider cannot hold a TT position in windy conditions regard less of speed. Actually the *windier* it is, then the more a disc saves and the *slower* a rider , then the more a disc saves. So why did you find the opposite? Its actually because your variability index was 1.07 on the slow (175w) disc run but 1.01 on the deep wheel run. A VI of 1.0 will always beat a VI of 1.07 on a flat (or near flat course) at the same NP because a high variability index means you are going under-average for much of the segment and then way over power to catch up (devonjstewart
also correctly notes this below). Way-over power means your are getting a great aero penalty at a fast speed. It’s a little hard to explain here but the fastest possible pacing is exactly at the desired average speed (assuming no wind and no hills) in order to keep drag at the minimum. Sorry for the long message, I may make a explanation video on my channel if you want or feel free to reach out to me if you wish. bw from Alex at FFT. Keep up the great work!
This is a really interesting comment. Good job advertising your channel, I'm going to check it out.
Great response, hopefully TT can update the video
Please do such a Video on your about this
@@niki0k582 FFT has lots of videos already - great stuff on their channel. check it out
@@trbeyond i so know that and follow them already
I love the test, love this kind of content! I use HED Jet 9+ and Disc+ rear wheels frequently and find the disc is marginally faster for most applications and speeds, all but relatively steep grades over 5%. I think your deep section wheel tested faster in the first run because your disc AP was 165. Your deep section AP was 11 watts higher. While your disc normalized was 175, a good indicator of similar effort (also noting a 7% VI), average powers are a better control variable for aerodynamic performance. With a low VI, the two (AP and NP) are nearly the same, but for some reason you had a huge spike in variability in the first interval. Perhaps it was related to wind handling, and that certainly plays a subjective role in actual results for athletes. A disc is no advantage if you can’t stay aero. But purely from the perspective of measuring aerodynamic and rolling performance, respectfully, I think if you re-tested with equal average powers you may reach the opposite conclusion.
devonjstewart totally agree.
Absolutely terrible test. The road you tested on had so much traffic that greatly influenced your test. Your data is useless. Not to mention your power variations and braking.
Great video to see the difference - I thought that may be the result! I can't afford either haha, so I'm sticking with my regular wheels :p
Hey, Taren! Love that you spoke to the cost of such things- as much as I love triathlon it can be one heck of a money-pit if one isn't careful. So much to buy for so few seconds!!! Kidding. Neat video. Dug it.
The disc just looks aggressive and so much better, and half the race is about looking fast ;)
I went to an Ironman where there was a lot of crosswind almost 11 miles/h wind . And it surprised me how many people I saw with disc wheels. …. Thanks for this video. It’s all I needed to see.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your final conclusion/recommendation. BUT you were riding on the shoulder of a road with traffic. The amount of variability that you get with cars passing you and giving you a draft is just way too much to be able to walk away with reliable data. At minimum you need a closed course with multiple test runs and even that is a bit of a crap shoot.
Vehicles provide testing on crosswinds, which is the prime anecdotal complaint of aero wheels and disc wheels. People constantly blame the disc wheel for killing them when in reality it was the aero front wheel that caused them to loose control of the steering fork.
IMO in triathlon very rarely will you come across a course where a disc isn't faster. Most climbs in triathlon aren't steep/long enough for the minor weight penalty of a disc to even be a factor, and as for the wind in my experience, being a small/lightweight rider myself, disc still almost always faster (especially so in crosswinds when it turns into a sail and you can tear that road up). I'm still always baffled why people think disc wheels are tough to handle in the wind your steering axis is at the front wheel so the depth of the front wheel is what will dictate your ability to handle the bike. Something like a 404 depth upfront and disc in rear will do you perfectly on almost every course out there - the 404 will be easy to handle and stay in aero no matter what the wind. Yes 808/disc faster but many can't control in the wind so pointless - unless of course you got the cash to have mutliple sets/depths and then sure pick and choose your front based on the forecast. Last I'll just add if the weight of the disc is really something people are concerned about: Revolver Helikon Disc - 1100g only of sweet carbon. With all that being said you for sure can't ignore the fact that when your ripping along on disc the sound it makes just makes you feel like a rockstar, I honestly think the disc sound should be listed as a cure for Low T.
I don't like the sail analogy because wind aiming towards your disc wheel front the front would mean you are now moving backwards based on. The sail analogy.
@@jason200912it is like a sail in Crosswinds though
Constructive criticism: not sure you understand the concept of normalized power. As other have mentioned, this exercise would have been great if you would have used average power instead. Also, the effect of cars passing you will skew your results.
Correct!
Cars around will play major role on a ride. Can't really compare.
The best option would be a light wheel cover like an Aerojacket. There is no weight penalty like with a disc. It's the fastest option.
I tried the link. I think it is broken. Great job in Roth.
I really respect what Taren does but good lord - the idea that a disc makes you ride further due to wiggling is laughable. Sorry.
My belief is this was a very false representation of the facts.
Taren what is the best option for a budget of a few hundred dollars, disc jacket or cheap deep section?
I remember that CEO of Swiss Side wheel commented in the Pacing and Racing podcast that disc wheel at 35kph can save something around 1 watt (tested in wind tunnel), if I'm not wrong, vs deep section wheels. This saving may increase as you get faster speed. For pro triathlete 1 watt saving is always welcome, but for hilly course and for AG athletes definitely is not always the best choice going with disc wheel (= heavy wheel). I recommend to listen this podcast. It has a good insights about aerodynamic using different triathlon accessories (helmet, tires, wheel and so on)
really useful video Taren, I was considering getting a disc wheel for race days so this was great to see the performance difference. (p.s dont think i'll bother with the disc now) :)
Nice torque wrench Taren!
Hi Taren great work.
I think you are wrong with your calculations. NP is an "invention" of Training Peaks in order to measure your training effort. It's not an indicator of how fast you will go.
If check again your low wattage session, you will see that you are comparing 175 vs 165 avg power. That gives you the logical result to be slower with 165 avg power.
Spot on. The idea is good, but the testing methodology needs much refining to convince me the conclusions are solid.
How were you able to find a flat section of road in Manitoba??
Hi Taren, I've just received your booklet preview (thx!) and started to read. Before I'm too far with this enjoyable reading, I just wanted to ask: Do you wish to receive any feedback regarding typos or so?
Hello! Having had disc wheel during Challenge Roth, what's your opinion? Was it worth or you could do better with deep section wheel at the back?
OK. Thank you for this. Now the disc is out, how deep the rims?
Lots of data.... thanks , I personally have a mental break down thinking about using a full disc as there are windy days I get scared with riding my 81 mm deep section rims.
How a bout the vlog about using shorter cranks? You hinted about it around the challenge Roth videos!
Hi Taren I really like the paint job on your bike looks sick👌🏻 where did you get it done I want a custom paint job and can’t find anywhere online to get it done
Personally it isn’t worth owning a disc wheel where I live since it’s always windy when it’s nice in South Dakota.
225 watts is not 40 km/h but disc was better than deep section. Could you please clarify that? GREAT video !
You should mention benefit of disc in light side wind where it acts like sail.
I think that, once again, the results are skewed by the traffic on the road. That has much more effect on the final numbers than all the details that you made the same. Would be interesting to see results from a closed velodrome.
Taren, NP is not avg power. You're better than this.
No, he's really not.
20 cm Valve on the deep rim ;)! btw....great job in Roth!!
I am not a fast rider, but always faster with my disc wheels.
My opinion the only downside in climbing.
Not tubeless? Tubeless definitely rolls more efficiently.
Definetly Not 😀...depending on your setup tube can even be faster
And you could always make a deep section disc wheel cover.
super strong fingers if you think you can remove a casset with your fingers
Thanks for saving me 2000 Euros Taren. I was pretty close to buying a Zipp disc, but I see that I am too slow for it!
If Ned Flanders did triathlon
You should have been measuring Average Power and not Normalized Power. We want to measure the bike/wheel results and remove you from the power figures. Also, do lots of runs to get a consistent results, and get away from the cars. They blow you all over and can help or hinder your test. This should be no problem, just run the test again matching AVP instead of NP. Intresting results through..
Oooo always nice when watching a youtube video might save me some money :) Either that or get me training enough that I can average 45kph in a race!
thanks and sweet altos
Guys got like 100k in bike stuff in his garage
This is horrible. Not even the least bit controlled or scientific.
Yessss!!!
I realize everyone has their own taste but man... That bike, wheel, gear combo is deeply ugly.
Sorry. Lol.
Third