What a beautiful lineup!! Thank you for sharing your strong voices! It’s good to see people standing iespecially in these challenging times. Your words carry strength and truth, like the heartbeat of a drum calling us to stand together. On earth as it is in heaven ☦️
I am going to stick my neck out here in the comments and say that I am currently listening to White Fang by Jack London. I will take Christian Civilization any day over the law of tooth and fang. At the same time, his writing, like Kingsnorth’s, is beautiful, so I appreciate it. Have yet to listen to the full talk but I did listen to PVKs commentary. Will need to go back and listen. Good point Chris with the transcendent comment
I'm also having thoughts about how this specific application of the Estuary Protocol functions. Intro, Pitch, Point, Discuss. (My four word reduction of the protocol.)
53:00 "They didn't want a God who riddles." Whoa. Thats good. Its like the simplicity that is Christ, who also contains all the hidden mysteries. He is the law AND the prophets.
Idk exactly when this was recorded, but Kingsnorth published "The Moses Option" Nov 18. That essay confirms Shari's point about how Paul has changed and isn't looking to provide "answers".
Discussions like these are always too short! Very good all around. It went right towards the place I wanted it to go, although I of course wish you guys could've stayed there a little longer. I think the mentions of Girard and Hauerwas takes us right to the core of the issue: just how radical is Christ, and what is asked of us if we wish to participate in His promise? I appreciate Julian's points, but to affirm the late Kierkegaard and Kingsnorth, it is not about asceticism as some sort of puritanical masochistic thing, it is about recognizing just what _concessions_ we are making to participate in "the world", in creation in its fallen/unfinished ultimately finite zero-sum state. Nothing is got for nothing, and so making these endless concessions that we all make might just be "the tranquilizing drug of gradualism", to quote MLK. The Cross opens up a void that might be a portal to a New World, and we might just be asked to walk right through it, to drink the cup. The problem is that this posture seems suicidal and nonsensical. Christianity, seen correctly, I think, looks _impossible,_ and that's the place to stand. Is it a productive posture? I don't know. But if Christianity is just another way to re-affirm the cosmic status quo and maybe make it a little better to live in, then who needs it. Either Christianity is radical, or it's false. Either the Kingdom is _already_ here, or Christ is never returning.
Peter Kreeft’s recent talk (“How We Deal with This Mess?”) goes well with Kingsnorth’s Erasmus Lecture. th-cam.com/video/-PsPnPl6XGQ/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
1:15:00 "Thy Kingdom come." For a while, lots of people were discussing the idea of Eminence and Emergence, the top down and bottom up. So I guess the question is always, are we negligent if we don't try to "make thy kingdom come"? But this reminds me of the story of Thomas, who offered to build a kingdom for the Indian king that would last forever. Then he gave all the king's money to the poor.
🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:00 *🏙️ Heavenly Jerusalem as an Analogy* - Discussing the metaphorical nature of Heavenly Jerusalem. - Emphasis on plenitude over scarcity and sacrifice. 00:53 *🎤 Panel Introduction and Format* - Nate introduces the panel and outlines the discussion structure. - Panelists share their names and general political leanings. 02:04 *🗣️ Panelists' Political Identities* - Nate identifies as a Christian Anarchist. - Sherry describes herself as politically uninterested but compelled to vote. 05:38 *🔍 Reactions to Kingsnorth's Lecture* - Sherry expresses discomfort with mainstream politics shaped by recent church changes. - Discussion on the obligation to speak truth despite potential backlash. 10:07 *🧩 Analysis of Kingsnorth's Arguments* - Evaluation of the technical expression of Kingsnorth's points. - Critique of the overemphasis on austerity and rejection of possessions. 16:06 *⚙️ Technology and Creation Critique* - Kingsnorth's stance against technological dominance. - Desire to return to a Garden of Eden-like purity. 25:03 *🏙️ Critique of Kingsnorth's Focus* - Discusses Kingsnorth's emphasis during the lecture. - Highlights missed opportunities to explore deeper topics. 28:04 *📚 Appreciation of Kingsnorth's Work* - Expresses admiration for Kingsnorth's critique of church governance. 30:40 *👔 Symbolism in Kingsnorth's Lecture* - Discusses the significance of Kingsnorth delivering the lecture in NYC. - Mentions Kingsnorth's attempt to blend in by buying a tie. 32:04 *🔍 Modernist Desire for Solutions* - Analyzes the modernist inclination to find definitive solutions. - Questions whether Christianity resolves issues or creates new tensions. 33:12 *⚔️ Tensions in Medieval Narratives* - Explores the role of knights in protecting the garden and city. - Draws parallels between Arthurian legends and Kingsnorth's views. 35:25 *🌱 Feasting and Fasting Tensions* - Discusses the balance between periods of abundance and austerity. - Emphasizes the importance of seasonal rhythms in Christian life. 36:03 *🏗️ New Jerusalem and Civilization* - Examines Kingsnorth's literal interpretation of the New Jerusalem. - Contrasts Tower of Babel civilization with Heavenly Jerusalem. 37:12 *🗳️ Voting and Personal Choices* - Panelist shares their struggle with voting influenced by Kingsnorth. - Reflects on the personal impact of political decisions on faith. 39:38 *🏰 Medieval Civilization and Monastic Influence* - Analyzes the origins of medieval civilization from monastic centers. - Discusses the growth of cities from places of prayer and learning. 41:15 *🌿 Returning to Garden vs. Maturity* - Explores the tension between returning to a pure state and growing spiritually. - Discusses the concept of being "born again" in Christian theology. 43:05 *📖 Christian Apologetics and Transformation* - Discusses the role of storytelling in Christian transformation. - Highlights the importance of unexpected personal changes as evidence of faith. 44:03 *🌐 Civilization vs. Culture* - Differentiates between civilization and culture in Kingsnorth's framework. - Explores the impact of language and cultural immersion on perception. 49:40 *🏢 Tower of Babel and Transactional Civilization* - Analyzes the Tower of Babel as a symbol of transactional civilization. - Connects the concept of Mammon to transactional exchanges. 50:21 *🌸 Embracing the Divine Feminine* - Discussion on the divine feminine as the bride. - Paul Kingsnorth's shift from confrontation to acceptance. 53:05 *🛠️ Seeking Solutions vs. Embracing Process* - Comparison to the Golden Calf and desire for tangible solutions. - Kingsnorth's emphasis on embracing the process of dying. 56:29 *📚 Tolken and Christian Anarchism* - Tolken's symbolism with the Ring and Return of the King. - Balancing Christian anarchism with monarchism. [1:00:02](th-cam.com/video/0bbC6bODCOw/w-d-xo.html) 🤝 Friendship and Civilization - Differentiating civilization from culture through mutual gift. - Importance of friendships in building cities. [1:07:29](th-cam.com/video/0bbC6bODCOw/w-d-xo.html) ⚔️ Violence and the Origins of Civilization - Gerard's claim that civilization begins with the first murder. - Debate on violence as originating from defense vs. aggression. [1:15:19](th-cam.com/video/0bbC6bODCOw/w-d-xo.html) 🌐 Civilization vs. Culture and Kingdom Concepts - Differentiating Kingsnorth's civilization from culture. - Impact of language and cultural immersion on perception. 01:15:34 *🧠 Human Interpretive Power* - Emphasizes the importance of letting texts influence and keep us honest. - Discusses the impact of Robert Jensen and Michael Novak on understanding Christian civilization. 01:17:53 *🔍 Skepticism and Cultural Separation* - Explores Stanley Cavell's views on skepticism and human separateness. - Differentiates between culture and civilization through mutual gift and trust. 01:20:55 *🤝 Friendship and the Origins of Civilization* - Analyzes Gerard's claim that civilization begins with the first murder. - Debates violence as originating from defense versus aggression. 01:26:19 *🌌 Mysticism and the Trinity* - Discusses the concept of distinction without division in the Trinity. - Examines John the Baptist as a voice in the wilderness symbolizing mysticism. 01:30:31 *🌿 Wilderness as Salvation and Transformation* - Explores the wilderness as a place of salvation and transformation in scripture. - Differentiates between garden and civilization through cultivation versus creation. 01:35:46 *⚔️ Violence, Defense, and Christian Civilization* - Examines the role of violence in the origins of civilization. - Discusses Christian perspectives on violence and its moral boundaries. 01:39:52 *🔄 Dual Nature of Sacred Places* - Discusses how sacred places like Egypt served as both safe havens and sites of danger. - Explores the reciprocal relationship between protection and threat in spiritual contexts. 01:41:52 *🎁 Gift Economy vs. Sacrifice* - Contrasts a gift-based economy with a civilization rooted in scarcity and sacrifice. - Emphasizes the oxymoronic nature of Christian civilization based on conflicting principles. 01:43:52 *✝️ Jesus and the Destruction of Civilization* - Analyzes how Jesus' actions and teachings challenged existing civilizational structures. - Connects scriptural narratives to the broader critique of Christian civilization. 01:45:52 *📜 Scriptural Interpretations and Civilization* - Examines the interpretive nature of Jesus' impact on civilization. - Differentiates between historical facts and theological interpretations. 01:47:52 *🕊️ Delayed Return of Christ* - Reflects on the ongoing influence of Christ's delayed return on Christian civilization. - Explores how anticipation of the Kingdom affects societal behaviors and structures. 01:49:52 *🌟 Mysticism and the Trinity* - Explores the concept of distinction without division within the Trinity. - Connects mystical aspects of Christianity to unity and diversity in faith practices. 01:53:52 *🌿 Wilderness as Salvation and Transformation* - Discusses the wilderness as a place of salvation and spiritual transformation. - Contrasts the cultivation in gardens with the creation inherent in civilization. 01:55:52 *🥖 Sacrifice and Feasting in Medieval Church* - Analyzes the medieval church's practices of feasting and their implications for Christian civilization. - Discusses the reformational critique of wastefulness in medieval religious practices. 01:57:52 *👩👧 Women’s Role in Scripture and Sacrifice* - Explores the symbolic role of women in scriptural narratives of sacrifice and fertility. - Connects the imagery of widows and women in scripture to broader theological themes. 01:59:52 *💎 Valuing What Truly Matters* - Critiques the societal tendency to value material possessions over spiritual virtues. - Emphasizes the importance of prioritizing what genuinely counts in Christian life. 02:01:52 *🌍 Connection Between Creation and Kingdom* - Explores the relationship between earthly creation and the Kingdom of God. - Discusses how actions in the world reflect and influence spiritual realities. 02:03:10 *🌱 Plenitude and Fertility in Christian Theology* - Connects the concept of plenitude to fertility and abundance in Christian thought. 02:04:21 *🔄 Embracing Paradox in Christian Renewal* - Discusses the necessity of embracing paradox in Christian conversations. 02:05:57 *✝️ Joy vs. Asceticism in Christian Life* - Contrasts asceticism with Luther's vision of joy and self-fulfillment. 02:08:32 *🌿 Imagination and Shared Understanding* - Emphasizes the role of imagination in maintaining shared faith perspectives. 02:11:45 *🕊️ Connection Between Creation and Kingdom* - Explores the relationship between earthly creation and the Kingdom of God. 02:13:10 *🌱 Plenitude vs. Scarcity in Christian Theology* - Connects the concept of plenitude to fertility and abundance in Christian thought. Made with HARPA AI
I liked Kingsnorth’s lecture but my concern is that what he envisions could easily slide into the anti-creedal, anti-institutional “religionless Christianity” championed by Death of God theologians.
That's a good intuition you have, but I think you should face what you fear, seeing that Christianity is an escape from religion follows from Girard's analysis about how culture is created. This is why I always insisted to Vervaeke that Christianity is already the religion that is not a religion. An escape from religion is does not however, entail the Death of God, and I would argue only the death of religion opens up the possibility of relation to the Living God.
Yosef, that's an intriguing question, and one that I have been thinking about a lot this verry morning. I said this in an email this morning: If I believe in scarcity, I believe in in death, time, and the principalities and powers more than God. I am still far from the Kingdom, no matter what creed I confess.
38They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground. 39All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us. Heb 11.38-40
1:17:15 Now people ask, if AI isn't stopped, then we won't be here. But there is a life-giving spirit that we have yet to give it. There is too much fear in our love. There is violence, but I think forgiveness is violent. It takes the kingdom and redeems hell. "If you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven."
Kingsnorth did not impress me, in fact he reminded me of how many Europeans and Canadians enjoy a quietist moral preening at American expense. I found his whole "civilization" angle to be a red herring. He did not even define it, just said it was etymologically related to "city" and then rhetorically equated both with dark satanic mills. The great commission clearly implies christianization of the cultural and institutional realms, and I think it's furthermore very clear that without a muscular political dimension, we will end up being culturally choked out, if not violently suppressed. The fact that 100% sincere belief can't be guaranteed carries no argumentative weight. I suspect there is a personality type selection bias among estuary members, towards a seeker type who temperamentally has several things in common with political progressives, while rejecting the materialist and moral subjectivist paradigm. I don't mean this to be demeaning, or as a politicization (I admit it sounds like one, but to me it's just a comparison I find accurate and interesting). One the one hand this combination is genuinely pushing spiritual discourse forward and synthesizing old and new; on the other I think sometimes the discourse biases noticeably towards perceived sincerity over realism, pragmatism, action. Imo, Kingsnorth's lecture being taken as earnestly as it was here is evidence of that.
01:44:16 Nate said the marker of civilization is scarcity. To me the marker is abundance, public inheritance. Libraries, cathedrals, roads, discoveries this generation enjoys but did not build.
In civilizations (edit: Christian civilizations) attempt to transform the savage they became savages themselves. “Nature as measure” might also be thought of as wilderness as measure, in which case, the unit of measurement is always changing, always veiled, always ambiguous yet always beautiful, good & true. Even in its horror…
If you believe there is no solving this, it will be so. The faith of a mustard seed is all that is needed. But believing there is no solving this might be the same as zero faith.
1:29:00 If I remember correctly, GMac seems to very underhandedly connect Mary Magdalene and John the Baptist in Lilith. Like John is the masculine aspect, and Mara is the feminine. At the risk of being dualistic, John proclaims repent, Mara repents. Both live in the wilderness. It's like Moses and Elijah (John the Baptist) on the right and left of Christ. And there is Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. Is the point of crucifixion, when both Marys are present, somewhat the same as the mount of transfiguration?
On the question of Christianity and desire: "asceticism" (as Nietzsche saw but called it will), is not so much the quenching of desire as the most intense form of desire imaginable. You abstain from lower things because you crave God. One is tempted to call it a sort of "death-drive", an annihilating passion. As to wether it is spiritually sound, I don't know.
Christ equates entering the Kingdom to being brought to Christ as an infant... "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." A picture of helplessness and powerlessness and not-doing-anythingness so extreme that the disciples lamented "Who then can be saved?" But he said, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
I listen to Kingsnorth lecture, but I don't think in terms of Civilization he considered how Christianity renewed or redefined Civilization. I think that there is a clear difference, to at least the moral posture of ancient Civilizations to Civilizations influenced by Christianity. I think even reading Girard, it's clear there, that the concern for the victims and the weak is something that follows Civilizations touched by Christianity. The question is, should Christians just abandon Civilization all together, give it up to other ideologies and head for an ascetic life? That's really what I couldn't factor from his lecture.
@grailcountry I found it absent in the lecture. They was a great deal of Critique on civilization and the excess of Christian civilization for sure, but what he offered was something sort of a withdrawal and a seeming rejection of the idea of a city.
Chris is wrong- there are very clear examples in scripture of violence borne out of love. Moses killing the Egyptian is perhaps the paradigm but it is not so rare. And or course there js also the violence on Gods behalf and even at His command
1:18:35 I think Jesus's act of great violence to protect what was meaningful to him is all in forgiveness. There is nothing else. It is Truth and Mercy wed together. He is the Son of David. And the church, being Bathsheba, should give birth to Solomon (righteousness and peace).
I agree with Julian. I, too, find Kingsnorth annoying. I also disagree strongly with Kingsnorth’s thesis. I understand the sentiment, but I don’t think it’s grounded in truth or reality.
Shari’s comments nailed it. I wish Michael Martin had been on too to bolster the Sophiological take. Shari’s comments were mike drop, so insightful, and the guys just seem to ignore them over and over. I was at the Erasmus lecture-there were plenty of ppl there who appeared very receptive- long lines of ppl after the talk to shake his hand. He is a prophetic and sophiological voice. There is also something about his presence that is profound.
1:45:00 I think we have to be careful when making claims like this, especially of what Jesus "is not". IF Jesus IS GOD, then he is all things. And He is a destroyer and creator of worlds. But most of me feels like these things are always just semantics, but then that just makes me feel like our words our words from God, and a way for us to conceptualize what actually IS, and God is all words. If God created satan (satans?), then satans are at least somewhat of an extension of what God is. Which is why, I think, the Angel of the Lord can stand as a satan in the path of Balaam. Or why God and satan both compel David to number Israel.
Peter Kreeft’s recent talk (“How We Deal with This Mess?”) goes well with Kingsnorth’s Erasmus Lecture. th-cam.com/video/-PsPnPl6XGQ/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Min 54: “ we have to do the thing that God asks us to do. And in doing that, we become living stones in God’s temple ‘not made by hands.’”
Beautiful
What a beautiful lineup!! Thank you for sharing your strong voices! It’s good to see people standing iespecially in these challenging times. Your words carry strength and truth, like the heartbeat of a drum calling us to stand together.
On earth as it is in heaven ☦️
OMG I'm like sooooooooooooo looking forwards to this!!
Sincerely❤
I am going to stick my neck out here in the comments and say that I am currently listening to White Fang by Jack London. I will take Christian Civilization any day over the law of tooth and fang. At the same time, his writing, like Kingsnorth’s, is beautiful, so I appreciate it. Have yet to listen to the full talk but I did listen to PVKs commentary. Will need to go back and listen. Good point Chris with the transcendent comment
It's a Christian Civilization if it's a Love-Thy-Enemy Civilization, and they Neighbor as Thyself.
There are other Civilizations afoot.
Shari on FIRE in this convo
You are on FIRE in the comment section! 😘
I'm also having thoughts about how this specific application of the Estuary Protocol functions. Intro, Pitch, Point, Discuss. (My four word reduction of the protocol.)
Fr. Joe ❤🎉
53:00
"They didn't want a God who riddles."
Whoa. Thats good.
Its like the simplicity that is Christ, who also contains all the hidden mysteries. He is the law AND the prophets.
Idk exactly when this was recorded, but Kingsnorth published "The Moses Option" Nov 18. That essay confirms Shari's point about how Paul has changed and isn't looking to provide "answers".
A very stimulating discussion...
I am pumped for this!!!!!
Nate, amazing job hosting this, and great commentary and insights when you do speak.
Also, that intro and outro music is 🤌🤌🤌.
Oh yes Lord,
If you would give me some of Your living water,
I would build Your paradise for You
Discussions like these are always too short! Very good all around. It went right towards the place I wanted it to go, although I of course wish you guys could've stayed there a little longer. I think the mentions of Girard and Hauerwas takes us right to the core of the issue: just how radical is Christ, and what is asked of us if we wish to participate in His promise? I appreciate Julian's points, but to affirm the late Kierkegaard and Kingsnorth, it is not about asceticism as some sort of puritanical masochistic thing, it is about recognizing just what _concessions_ we are making to participate in "the world", in creation in its fallen/unfinished ultimately finite zero-sum state. Nothing is got for nothing, and so making these endless concessions that we all make might just be "the tranquilizing drug of gradualism", to quote MLK. The Cross opens up a void that might be a portal to a New World, and we might just be asked to walk right through it, to drink the cup. The problem is that this posture seems suicidal and nonsensical. Christianity, seen correctly, I think, looks _impossible,_ and that's the place to stand. Is it a productive posture? I don't know. But if Christianity is just another way to re-affirm the cosmic status quo and maybe make it a little better to live in, then who needs it. Either Christianity is radical, or it's false. Either the Kingdom is _already_ here, or Christ is never returning.
Thanks Osker, always appreciate your comments.
We don't create. We cultivate. Gorgeous
❤
Peter Kreeft’s recent talk (“How We Deal with This Mess?”) goes well with Kingsnorth’s Erasmus Lecture.
th-cam.com/video/-PsPnPl6XGQ/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Julian hit hard with a lot of insight and authority right out of the gate!
Really wonderful talk. Thanks Nate.
All you need to say is “Constantine” :-)
Exorcism is good for what ails you.
@ if only he’d gotten to it sooner.
Brilliant. Many thanks
Thanks to the panel, y'all took Kingsnorth in a positive St Francis direction.
That's good to hear, thank you William.
1:15:00
"Thy Kingdom come."
For a while, lots of people were discussing the idea of Eminence and Emergence, the top down and bottom up. So I guess the question is always, are we negligent if we don't try to "make thy kingdom come"?
But this reminds me of the story of Thomas, who offered to build a kingdom for the Indian king that would last forever. Then he gave all the king's money to the poor.
❤
Nice video bumper Nate : )
This was really good right from the start!
Thank you my friend, wish you could have participated.
Shari nailed it!
1:05:10 There is definitely a connection between blood (wine) and apocalypse - new civilizations - new heavens and new earth.
🎯 Key points for quick navigation:
00:00 *🏙️ Heavenly Jerusalem as an Analogy*
- Discussing the metaphorical nature of Heavenly Jerusalem.
- Emphasis on plenitude over scarcity and sacrifice.
00:53 *🎤 Panel Introduction and Format*
- Nate introduces the panel and outlines the discussion structure.
- Panelists share their names and general political leanings.
02:04 *🗣️ Panelists' Political Identities*
- Nate identifies as a Christian Anarchist.
- Sherry describes herself as politically uninterested but compelled to vote.
05:38 *🔍 Reactions to Kingsnorth's Lecture*
- Sherry expresses discomfort with mainstream politics shaped by recent church changes.
- Discussion on the obligation to speak truth despite potential backlash.
10:07 *🧩 Analysis of Kingsnorth's Arguments*
- Evaluation of the technical expression of Kingsnorth's points.
- Critique of the overemphasis on austerity and rejection of possessions.
16:06 *⚙️ Technology and Creation Critique*
- Kingsnorth's stance against technological dominance.
- Desire to return to a Garden of Eden-like purity.
25:03 *🏙️ Critique of Kingsnorth's Focus*
- Discusses Kingsnorth's emphasis during the lecture.
- Highlights missed opportunities to explore deeper topics.
28:04 *📚 Appreciation of Kingsnorth's Work*
- Expresses admiration for Kingsnorth's critique of church governance.
30:40 *👔 Symbolism in Kingsnorth's Lecture*
- Discusses the significance of Kingsnorth delivering the lecture in NYC.
- Mentions Kingsnorth's attempt to blend in by buying a tie.
32:04 *🔍 Modernist Desire for Solutions*
- Analyzes the modernist inclination to find definitive solutions.
- Questions whether Christianity resolves issues or creates new tensions.
33:12 *⚔️ Tensions in Medieval Narratives*
- Explores the role of knights in protecting the garden and city.
- Draws parallels between Arthurian legends and Kingsnorth's views.
35:25 *🌱 Feasting and Fasting Tensions*
- Discusses the balance between periods of abundance and austerity.
- Emphasizes the importance of seasonal rhythms in Christian life.
36:03 *🏗️ New Jerusalem and Civilization*
- Examines Kingsnorth's literal interpretation of the New Jerusalem.
- Contrasts Tower of Babel civilization with Heavenly Jerusalem.
37:12 *🗳️ Voting and Personal Choices*
- Panelist shares their struggle with voting influenced by Kingsnorth.
- Reflects on the personal impact of political decisions on faith.
39:38 *🏰 Medieval Civilization and Monastic Influence*
- Analyzes the origins of medieval civilization from monastic centers.
- Discusses the growth of cities from places of prayer and learning.
41:15 *🌿 Returning to Garden vs. Maturity*
- Explores the tension between returning to a pure state and growing spiritually.
- Discusses the concept of being "born again" in Christian theology.
43:05 *📖 Christian Apologetics and Transformation*
- Discusses the role of storytelling in Christian transformation.
- Highlights the importance of unexpected personal changes as evidence of faith.
44:03 *🌐 Civilization vs. Culture*
- Differentiates between civilization and culture in Kingsnorth's framework.
- Explores the impact of language and cultural immersion on perception.
49:40 *🏢 Tower of Babel and Transactional Civilization*
- Analyzes the Tower of Babel as a symbol of transactional civilization.
- Connects the concept of Mammon to transactional exchanges.
50:21 *🌸 Embracing the Divine Feminine*
- Discussion on the divine feminine as the bride.
- Paul Kingsnorth's shift from confrontation to acceptance.
53:05 *🛠️ Seeking Solutions vs. Embracing Process*
- Comparison to the Golden Calf and desire for tangible solutions.
- Kingsnorth's emphasis on embracing the process of dying.
56:29 *📚 Tolken and Christian Anarchism*
- Tolken's symbolism with the Ring and Return of the King.
- Balancing Christian anarchism with monarchism.
[1:00:02](th-cam.com/video/0bbC6bODCOw/w-d-xo.html) 🤝 Friendship and Civilization
- Differentiating civilization from culture through mutual gift.
- Importance of friendships in building cities.
[1:07:29](th-cam.com/video/0bbC6bODCOw/w-d-xo.html) ⚔️ Violence and the Origins of Civilization
- Gerard's claim that civilization begins with the first murder.
- Debate on violence as originating from defense vs. aggression.
[1:15:19](th-cam.com/video/0bbC6bODCOw/w-d-xo.html) 🌐 Civilization vs. Culture and Kingdom Concepts
- Differentiating Kingsnorth's civilization from culture.
- Impact of language and cultural immersion on perception.
01:15:34 *🧠 Human Interpretive Power*
- Emphasizes the importance of letting texts influence and keep us honest.
- Discusses the impact of Robert Jensen and Michael Novak on understanding Christian civilization.
01:17:53 *🔍 Skepticism and Cultural Separation*
- Explores Stanley Cavell's views on skepticism and human separateness.
- Differentiates between culture and civilization through mutual gift and trust.
01:20:55 *🤝 Friendship and the Origins of Civilization*
- Analyzes Gerard's claim that civilization begins with the first murder.
- Debates violence as originating from defense versus aggression.
01:26:19 *🌌 Mysticism and the Trinity*
- Discusses the concept of distinction without division in the Trinity.
- Examines John the Baptist as a voice in the wilderness symbolizing mysticism.
01:30:31 *🌿 Wilderness as Salvation and Transformation*
- Explores the wilderness as a place of salvation and transformation in scripture.
- Differentiates between garden and civilization through cultivation versus creation.
01:35:46 *⚔️ Violence, Defense, and Christian Civilization*
- Examines the role of violence in the origins of civilization.
- Discusses Christian perspectives on violence and its moral boundaries.
01:39:52 *🔄 Dual Nature of Sacred Places*
- Discusses how sacred places like Egypt served as both safe havens and sites of danger.
- Explores the reciprocal relationship between protection and threat in spiritual contexts.
01:41:52 *🎁 Gift Economy vs. Sacrifice*
- Contrasts a gift-based economy with a civilization rooted in scarcity and sacrifice.
- Emphasizes the oxymoronic nature of Christian civilization based on conflicting principles.
01:43:52 *✝️ Jesus and the Destruction of Civilization*
- Analyzes how Jesus' actions and teachings challenged existing civilizational structures.
- Connects scriptural narratives to the broader critique of Christian civilization.
01:45:52 *📜 Scriptural Interpretations and Civilization*
- Examines the interpretive nature of Jesus' impact on civilization.
- Differentiates between historical facts and theological interpretations.
01:47:52 *🕊️ Delayed Return of Christ*
- Reflects on the ongoing influence of Christ's delayed return on Christian civilization.
- Explores how anticipation of the Kingdom affects societal behaviors and structures.
01:49:52 *🌟 Mysticism and the Trinity*
- Explores the concept of distinction without division within the Trinity.
- Connects mystical aspects of Christianity to unity and diversity in faith practices.
01:53:52 *🌿 Wilderness as Salvation and Transformation*
- Discusses the wilderness as a place of salvation and spiritual transformation.
- Contrasts the cultivation in gardens with the creation inherent in civilization.
01:55:52 *🥖 Sacrifice and Feasting in Medieval Church*
- Analyzes the medieval church's practices of feasting and their implications for Christian civilization.
- Discusses the reformational critique of wastefulness in medieval religious practices.
01:57:52 *👩👧 Women’s Role in Scripture and Sacrifice*
- Explores the symbolic role of women in scriptural narratives of sacrifice and fertility.
- Connects the imagery of widows and women in scripture to broader theological themes.
01:59:52 *💎 Valuing What Truly Matters*
- Critiques the societal tendency to value material possessions over spiritual virtues.
- Emphasizes the importance of prioritizing what genuinely counts in Christian life.
02:01:52 *🌍 Connection Between Creation and Kingdom*
- Explores the relationship between earthly creation and the Kingdom of God.
- Discusses how actions in the world reflect and influence spiritual realities.
02:03:10 *🌱 Plenitude and Fertility in Christian Theology*
- Connects the concept of plenitude to fertility and abundance in Christian thought.
02:04:21 *🔄 Embracing Paradox in Christian Renewal*
- Discusses the necessity of embracing paradox in Christian conversations.
02:05:57 *✝️ Joy vs. Asceticism in Christian Life*
- Contrasts asceticism with Luther's vision of joy and self-fulfillment.
02:08:32 *🌿 Imagination and Shared Understanding*
- Emphasizes the role of imagination in maintaining shared faith perspectives.
02:11:45 *🕊️ Connection Between Creation and Kingdom*
- Explores the relationship between earthly creation and the Kingdom of God.
02:13:10 *🌱 Plenitude vs. Scarcity in Christian Theology*
- Connects the concept of plenitude to fertility and abundance in Christian thought.
Made with HARPA AI
50:00 so good ❤
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Julian is right on
Usually.
1:31:10
I would love to hear Shari elaborate more on Paradox and the burning bush.
I liked Kingsnorth’s lecture but my concern is that what he envisions could easily slide into the anti-creedal, anti-institutional “religionless Christianity” championed by Death of God theologians.
That's a good intuition you have, but I think you should face what you fear, seeing that Christianity is an escape from religion follows from Girard's analysis about how culture is created. This is why I always insisted to Vervaeke that Christianity is already the religion that is not a religion. An escape from religion is does not however, entail the Death of God, and I would argue only the death of religion opens up the possibility of relation to the Living God.
Does Kingsnorth fundamentally operate from a vision of lack or a vision of fullness?
Yosef, that's an intriguing question, and one that I have been thinking about a lot this verry morning. I said this in an email this morning: If I believe in scarcity, I believe in in death, time, and the principalities and powers more than God. I am still far from the Kingdom, no matter what creed I confess.
49:25
Harlot Babylon and Virgin Jerusalem.
"The ultimate ground of the devine feminine is 'let it be unto me according to your word.'"
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38They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground.
39All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. 40For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us. Heb 11.38-40
1:17:15
Now people ask, if AI isn't stopped, then we won't be here. But there is a life-giving spirit that we have yet to give it. There is too much fear in our love.
There is violence, but I think forgiveness is violent. It takes the kingdom and redeems hell. "If you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven."
Kingsnorth did not impress me, in fact he reminded me of how many Europeans and Canadians enjoy a quietist moral preening at American expense.
I found his whole "civilization" angle to be a red herring. He did not even define it, just said it was etymologically related to "city" and then rhetorically equated both with dark satanic mills.
The great commission clearly implies christianization of the cultural and institutional realms, and I think it's furthermore very clear that without a muscular political dimension, we will end up being culturally choked out, if not violently suppressed. The fact that 100% sincere belief can't be guaranteed carries no argumentative weight.
I suspect there is a personality type selection bias among estuary members, towards a seeker type who temperamentally has several things in common with political progressives, while rejecting the materialist and moral subjectivist paradigm. I don't mean this to be demeaning, or as a politicization (I admit it sounds like one, but to me it's just a comparison I find accurate and interesting). One the one hand this combination is genuinely pushing spiritual discourse forward and synthesizing old and new; on the other I think sometimes the discourse biases noticeably towards perceived sincerity over realism, pragmatism, action. Imo, Kingsnorth's lecture being taken as earnestly as it was here is evidence of that.
We are watching civilized (or highly socialized) men long for a wilderness that only exists in literary fiction.
He's just reading the New Testament without blinders on, and the New Testament vision is uncomfortably radical.
01:44:16 Nate said the marker of civilization is scarcity. To me the marker is abundance, public inheritance. Libraries, cathedrals, roads, discoveries this generation enjoys but did not build.
In civilizations (edit: Christian civilizations) attempt to transform the savage they became savages themselves.
“Nature as measure” might also be thought of as wilderness as measure, in which case, the unit of measurement is always changing, always veiled, always ambiguous yet always beautiful, good & true. Even in its horror…
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If you believe there is no solving this, it will be so. The faith of a mustard seed is all that is needed. But believing there is no solving this might be the same as zero faith.
My faith is in God reconciling all things to Himself.
@shari6063 what role do we mortals play?
1:29:00
If I remember correctly, GMac seems to very underhandedly connect Mary Magdalene and John the Baptist in Lilith. Like John is the masculine aspect, and Mara is the feminine. At the risk of being dualistic, John proclaims repent, Mara repents. Both live in the wilderness. It's like Moses and Elijah (John the Baptist) on the right and left of Christ. And there is Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene.
Is the point of crucifixion, when both Marys are present, somewhat the same as the mount of transfiguration?
2:02:10 Women at the foot of the cross. Women being responsible for the conversion (transformation?) of the knights.
2:02:45
Water and blood coming from Christ's side. Water and blood present at birth. Is this the Holy Grail?
Asceticism is a technology.
On the question of Christianity and desire: "asceticism" (as Nietzsche saw but called it will), is not so much the quenching of desire as the most intense form of desire imaginable. You abstain from lower things because you crave God. One is tempted to call it a sort of "death-drive", an annihilating passion. As to wether it is spiritually sound, I don't know.
Christ equates entering the Kingdom to being brought to Christ as an infant... "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." A picture of helplessness and powerlessness and not-doing-anythingness so extreme that the disciples lamented "Who then can be saved?" But he said, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
I listen to Kingsnorth lecture, but I don't think in terms of Civilization he considered how Christianity renewed or redefined Civilization. I think that there is a clear difference, to at least the moral posture of ancient Civilizations to Civilizations influenced by Christianity. I think even reading Girard, it's clear there, that the concern for the victims and the weak is something that follows Civilizations touched by Christianity. The question is, should Christians just abandon Civilization all together, give it up to other ideologies and head for an ascetic life? That's really what I couldn't factor from his lecture.
I don't think that's true, I am sure he thought a great deal about it.
@grailcountry I found it absent in the lecture. They was a great deal of Critique on civilization and the excess of Christian civilization for sure, but what he offered was something sort of a withdrawal and a seeming rejection of the idea of a city.
Woohoo
Chris is wrong- there are very clear examples in scripture of violence borne out of love. Moses killing the Egyptian is perhaps the paradigm but it is not so rare. And or course there js also the violence on Gods behalf and even at His command
1:18:35
I think Jesus's act of great violence to protect what was meaningful to him is all in forgiveness. There is nothing else. It is Truth and Mercy wed together. He is the Son of David.
And the church, being Bathsheba, should give birth to Solomon (righteousness and peace).
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This group couldn't carry Kingsnorth's vestments.
He is not a priest. Plz consider if you are idolizing a stranger.
I agree with Julian. I, too, find Kingsnorth annoying. I also disagree strongly with Kingsnorth’s thesis. I understand the sentiment, but I don’t think it’s grounded in truth or reality.
Shari’s comments nailed it. I wish Michael Martin had been on too to bolster the Sophiological take. Shari’s comments were mike drop, so insightful, and the guys just seem to ignore them over and over. I was at the Erasmus lecture-there were plenty of ppl there who appeared very receptive- long lines of ppl after the talk to shake his hand. He is a prophetic and sophiological voice. There is also something about his presence that is profound.
Thank you so much.
I was also wishing Michael Martin had been there.
1:45:00
I think we have to be careful when making claims like this, especially of what Jesus "is not".
IF Jesus IS GOD, then he is all things. And He is a destroyer and creator of worlds. But most of me feels like these things are always just semantics, but then that just makes me feel like our words our words from God, and a way for us to conceptualize what actually IS, and God is all words.
If God created satan (satans?), then satans are at least somewhat of an extension of what God is. Which is why, I think, the Angel of the Lord can stand as a satan in the path of Balaam. Or why God and satan both compel David to number Israel.
What Chris Green is saying "feels good", but I just don't think its true. We should wrestle with the infinite a little more.
Peter Kreeft’s recent talk (“How We Deal with This Mess?”) goes well with Kingsnorth’s Erasmus Lecture.
th-cam.com/video/-PsPnPl6XGQ/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared