@@wilker374 Basically, try to imagine convincing Jordan Peterson to embrace this message and abandon the whole save Western civilization agenda. Love him and his message, but I doubt it.
Thank you so much for the inspiration - from an ordinary grandma who has come to appreciate the perceived 'behindness' of the culture down here at the bottom of Africa.
What Paul says about the beggars and poor people putting the emperor in check remembered me the beggar cursing at King David and the king tolerating it and saying "let him, I need it".
Quite Good. Engaging and Relevant. I am reminded of Saint Seraphim Rose’s words “The answer to Nietzsche is Saint Anthony The Great” I finally got a hold of a copy of his life, so I shall now go and dive into that at long last. Saint Anthony that is. Thank you both for your labours. May Christ increase your Humility and Grace and keep you both on the Narrow and Straight Path towards His Heavenly Kingdom. Dearest Brother Jonathan. I know you are busy, but if you ever considered doing a video of some kind on a life or teaching of a Modern Saint, that would be wonderful. Beauty First! The people don’t realize the Church is still producing Saints! With poor Love in Christ, Your Brother, - Silouan.
I think one thing i always learn from paul is that we can never Settle in this world. We are essentially Pilgrims. Some times we want to settle in this our idea of "Christian Civilization " that we dont realise that God is still taking us on a journey and we might find ourselves fleeing as refugees to the Desert after just being lords in the city. Heaven and earth shall pass away!
"Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls." - (Jeremiah 6:16a) Paul does a good job of reminding us where the good way is, but it'll cost us if we want to walk in it (and yet we must).
When Paul talks about the Roman Empire influencing Christianity, I wonder how much environmentalism still influences (directs?) his Christianity. I write that also deeply appreciating him and his work. I just see his old activist self bleeding through at times.
Yes! I wonder the same thing. I believe Paul's heart is in the right place, but I also sense a little bit of resentment-fueled environment activism in him.
We all have our worldly tendencies much like you can still see the classical liberal in some other Christian converts. It takes all kinds, we can all bring something to light that the other isn't seeing
Environmentalism isn't bad. Christians being stewards of the earth is part of teachings, we should be looking after the planet. I have no idea why people are agaisnt environmentalism? Do you enjoy the oceans being filled with plastic? Do you enjoy wildlife consuming this plastic? Do you like having microplastics in your body due to fish consuming plastics? Do you like the fact so much land is being used to create landfills? Do you enjoy not having clean air to breathe? Do you like swimming in sewage? Do you enjoy seeing sterile landscapes devoid of greenery? Do you not want to see healthy ecosystems filled with a multitude of fascination species? People who just dismiss environmentalism because of the acts of annoying protestors are just as bad as the protestors. The cause is good, I can't imagine any sane human wants to destroy nature for endless growth. We need to create a balance.
Re: Constantine becoming Christian (along with Charlemagne): from what I know, both of these men's wives played a pivotal role in the conversion. Brings back that point about the man being the head and women being the neck of the family.
You have a good point. There were several Saints who became Christian through women. Saint Constantine had his mother Saint Helena, Augustine had his mother and, not Charlemange, but Clovis the King of the Franks had a Christian wife who made him convert.
Thanks, Jonathan, for having this conversation. As a follow-up, you might take a look at chapter four of _The Lost Seeds of Learning_ (Classical Academic Press, 2021) for a further exploration of what the Incarnation implies about cultural transmission.
Really appreciate this conversation. The thought/observation that the culture is downstream of the lived life of Christians is so helpful. It reflects a truth about multiplication where that which is sacrificed to God enters into the miracle of the seed.
Wonderful discussion. I'm such a beginner even after years of searching but I love the way these two exceptionally gifted men bring so much understanding to being Christian and the difficultt times we are going through
The city can become a compensation for our lack of inner "civility." That is the problem. Our civilization lost its heart and has no view toward cultivating the inner man whatsoever. Christians must oppose the mechanisms that crush the soul and spirit while supporting those that uplift it. That is the ambiguity we saw with COVID. The hospital became rather inhospitable. Though obviously the hospital is good it is not the ultimate good. What we now call civilization is always already misanthropic, and Christendom has lost its saltiness, i.e. its single-mindedness toward God. Everything is crying out for true martyrs but nobody wants to be one.
10:45 “Our civilization is one where the fewest people die of hunger…” Monocrop agriculture and agriculture of the Machine may prove to be the thing that kills themost human beings. Our future may be like the opening scenes of Interstellar. We are sacrificing the hungry mouths of the future for the gluttony of the present.
I think even if we were to use the term "christian civilization", it ended at the Enlightenment. From the Enlightenment, it most rightly Modern civilization, which is by its nature and spirit Leviathan or Promethean and deeply anti Christian.
The Enlightenment has its roots in Christianity. Just because the fashionable set had Enlightenment thinking, the average person was simply Christian well after the Enlightenment. It’s a Christian civilization because the Enlightenment was nonetheless a manifestation of Christianity. Post-rock still relies on rock as its origin.
@AliciatheCho there's a difference between a thing in absolute terms, as it would be defined, and its derivatives. Both realities exist simultaneously: that the society was still "Christian" and that it was very demostratably not Christian. Jonathan and Paul and Christians in general are talking about an objectively Christian society.
@@AliciatheCho well, you are correct it has it's roots in Christianity. But that doesn't mean it's Christianity or its good. If you follow the Christianity story, the Anti-Christ, has its origin within Christianity, not another religion. But it subverts Christianity. "Progressive Christianity" has it's roots in Christianity, but is far from what Christianity teaches. All the Heretics have their roots from Christianity, but it doesn't mean that they are for the good of Christianity.
bit disappointing that they did not problematise ARC, Peterson & Co. Maybe Jonathan is ready at the moment to have a critical stance towards his famous friends
Funny Dachau is a pretty good place to live in Germany today that happened in WWII the past. There are worse places to live in today like in Southern California except for the super wealthy that is it's fine for them.
When you misunderstand the fall, everything that follows is off target. The fall is a change in our internal conditions. Until that internal condition is resolved, nothing can be fixed. That being said, everything is going exactly as planned. It's the fallen state that tells you society is corrupt. No. It's perfect
It's not planned, rather foreseen. The plan is to be united to God. In the Garden Adam and Eve had that opportunity. Not taking it lead to the fallen world, which the Trinity foresaw and was prepared to save man in order to have him united with them
Thank you for this video. I've never heard of either of you. You mentioned North Korea. I follow voice of the martyrs ministry. Testimonies of North Korean Christians who live in brutal conditions, starvation and severe persecution, to be a follower of Christ you may be put in a prison camp or be executed if caught praying or possessing a bible. Some have escaped to south Korea for what they hoped would be freedom to worship. They didn't know that "they" were actually the biblical church suffering persecution as the scripture states. 2 Timothy 3:12 Some returned to North Korea dissolutioned by what they found. I've thought that about America, America pushes this idea of democracy and freedom and it ends up a pursuit of the material which is actually "anti-christian. I read my Bible and then look at my American culture and they are at odds. The Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy said: Demas has left me for the cares of the world. Some preach 2 Chronicles 7:14 "if my people...." and declare this is the cure for americas woes. Paul Kingsworth is probably correct, Christianity in America, as it is now must die before it can be brought back to life. You see how these "supposed" revivals have quickly fizzled out. Jesus said: "you cannot serve God and mammon" you will love one and hate the other or visa versa. Each one of us must, as an individual grapple with the same inner war that The Apostle Paul had in Romans 7: until we thank Jesus Christ who can give us the victory over the "natural man" side of us. I like what Paul said about the culture adapting to a true Christian, for they will see the humility and beauty of one who truly follows Christ. Currently Christians are adapting/adopting the culture and until this reverses, true Christianity will continue to die in America. Question: can you have money and things without money and things having you? Each person must decide. Some have retreated to a monastery for they knew they could not resist the culture and closely follow Christ too. Consider Galatians 2: 20
I like what Kingsnorth says near the end, that we shouldn’t worry about preserving western culture, just go back to our spiritual roots of desert spirituality. From there, we will grow in health. David Bentley Hart says Christianity’s fecundity is in recourse to the early witness, not late growth. To reproduce XIX c. Tsarist Russian Orthodoxy is a dead end, but reinvestment in primitive Christianity will yield renewal. This is why he patristic witness is crucial. Protestants threw out the Church to ‘embrace’ the Bible. But the Bible was collated by the fathers whose scholarship and spiritual leadership built the early Christian church.
Given the narrative framework of the "Legend of the Twin Swords of the Azure Dragon": One Sword's Magic: Yin Energy - This sword could embody the principles of Yin, representing the receptive, passive, and cooling aspects of nature. Its magic might be associated with water, healing, protection, or the manipulation of defensive or restorative energies. When used, it could calm turbulent waters or create barriers of water or mist to shield or obscure. The sword might have the power to draw moisture from the air, heal wounds by channeling the natural flow of life energy, or even control the flow of water to redirect attacks or direct pathways through natural barriers. The Other Sword's Magic: Yang Energy - Conversely, this sword would embody Yang, symbolizing the active, aggressive, and warming aspects. Its magic could be tied to fire, destruction, or the channeling of offensive, dynamic energy. When wielded, this sword might have the ability to part waters with force, create flames or heat to evaporate water, or to strike with such intensity that it causes the air or water around it to break apart violently. It could embody the aspect of cutting through obstacles with sheer force or purging negative energies with light or heat.
Stories are the grid for perception as strongly held by daily life of those who lived continually in the seasons, the weather, always working with their hands, freeing up the great power of the Right Hemisphere.
The Republic fell when the government class rammed the 16th Amendment through in the dead of the night over a holiday. You you tax those slave nations you have conquered, not your citizens, unless you see no difference between them.
Papal coronation of Charlemagne as emperor in 800 is another piece of evidence in supporting the view that the coronation ceremony was both religious and necessary for the conferment of the imperial dignity, since the Pope was evidently following Byzantine precedent.
Still, while I agree with the sentiment, we live in a world where the pope is an ideologue and the "kings" are actors. We need something even deeper than the medieval vision.
As Catholics this is just the Fatima prophecies being fullfilled, humans didn't listen so now we are chastized, after the spanking The Church will be restored more glorious than before.
Maybe Paul himself just needs to become a monk. It doesn't mean everyone in the world needs to become a monk. Someone has to grow the food, at a minimum. Someone has to defend the innocent, at a minimum. Renunciation and pacifism aren't universally literal values in a fallen world. A vision of a "Christian civilization" that Kingsnorth might agree with is in the book The Benedict Option by his and Pageau's fellow Orthodox, Rod Dreher. Yes we can go back to the monastic and ascetic roots of the culture to regenerate our society in times of crisis. We don't have to call into question the value of civilization itself. Edit: Also I might recommend Why Liberalism Failed by Catholic political scientist Patrick Deneen. Deneen describes modern liberal society as an "anticulture" rather than a culture.
It seems to me that if people just actually tried to be Christian and follow Jesus' most important commandment of Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself as though it was their GPS for their life, not trying to make errant moral justifications for everything - society would be redeemed almost overnight. If we really believed it and acted on it. If the power structure and the grass roots considered this philosophy their north star and the thing to which all other moral philosophy is subordinated, there would be far less of these horrors occurring. Like Paul said, the unabashed adoption of the seven deadly sins as almost virtuous is at the heart of the rot in civilization. Many of us are simply aiming at the wrong thing most of the time.
True. But this comes naturally to average Joes once the institutions in society are set right. So I still believe there needs to be some top-down political activity in communion with the bottom-up transformation in people's hearts
@@wilker374 completely agree. The leaders and wielders of power have to believe in the wisdom of this philosophy and the wisdom of the average Joe or they will act like parasites, exploiting the goodwill of those below them in the hierarchy as they play by a different set of rules. The setting right is imperative and requires vigilance and humbleness throughout. When we abdicate our responsibility to make life easier, we have to place it in the hands of people who care even more deeply than the average with the requisite wisdom to bare the excess weight of that. That's why I think ultimately, a trembling fear of God's judgement and genuine love for all people has to be at the core of any leader. They must be humble. Without that, their commitment to personal sacrifice for this ideal won't be there and we'll tend toward pride and hubris.
There's a question that's sitting in my mind for quite some time now. If all professions come from Cain, and lead towards more violence and destruction, what about carpentry? Noa built the ark, st. Joseph was a carpenter, Jesus was a carpenter. Is carpentry in a way the best profession or a thing to do in this world?
I have an audiobook of The Outline Of Sanity by GK Chesterton on my channel, which may interest this audience. It's about the thing we might go back to after The Monopoly falls.
Or perhaps: We need something stronger and more fundamental to function as the pillar of the world than "Western Civilization" to fight against the globalists at WEF who really wish for billions to die at the perils of western civilization.
I’ve been listening to this. I love listening to your channel. I find this is very interesting because to me it’s more simple than all the discussion you’re having. I am Roman Catholic but I love our faith that loves Jesus and Mary. Because that’s who I love. But I have always been taught that if you just follow the Lord Jesus Christ and do what He’s telling you to do… in the Bible and in your faith, etc. if you follow Him closely and try to unite with Him that all these other things will fall into place. Seek ye first, the kingdom of God, and all the rest will be given to you. Isn’t that what you’re saying in a nutshell? I don’t think it needs all this discussion! That’s confusing me because the more you talk about it the less you do it. Kind of like what you’re saying. The more you’re trying to do some thing specific it’s not going to achieve it as easily if you just follow what God says, and let things happen. We live in a world where there’s good and evil and so when we find ourselves near evil, we get out quick, we do the best we can, but I think you’re complicating it quite a bit at least in my humble opinion. It seems so simple I think anyway. I love listening to all of this, but it seems like extra wording to say something pretty simply. Thank you though…love it all!God bless you.
So basically Christian’s shouldn’t have an apologetic, and it shouldn’t be the answer to putting all systems, ideologies, and those who exalt themselves above Christ under his feet? It should only be evangelical as so far that it saves an individual and by that it shouldn’t matter the culture? I appreciate what you guys are trying to get at, but it’s important to think deeper on the implications of it VS what you WANT the implications to be.
You eat from the tree of knowledge and you become barred from the tree of life. Redeem your soul from the serpent. Atonement does naught. Sacrifice the flesh, the knowledge of good and evil and unlock the tree of life. Why have thou forsaken me? Follow the ways of the holy spirit. Beware of those that worship the serpent. Upon the celestial sphere is the mapping of mankinds psyche, the search for the golden fleece, you will find the dragon. A Globus Cruciger is an inverted Ankh.
Well, I can't see how not. It's our best bet on many fronts. We are the ones who can look at the past and see what they got right/wrong. Doesn't mean that the end result wouldn't be something new.
God can only work with us and enter our working if we keep close to and inside humility and bow to him as the power..it is why those humiliated and herein find humility are close to god ... conversion is found in our brokenness we go to our knees from this place and He can enter.
the key phrase.... "protect/save The Root"... THAT IS WHAT an ARK does. AND the Ark itself is part of that root, as are the animals, and Everything onboard
We are social creatures, but that shouldn`t mean that we should abandon individual common sense. And vice versa. Now, some imagine that is a paradox. Therefore impossible. But as far i can see, paradox only exist in human minds. When their imaginary friend, the Ego, that false unrealistic picture of one self, doesn`t truly know it`s self. Everything they identify themselves with. But is in love with a lie, about one self. That goes for society, as well as for the individual. And again, as far i can see, only those who follow Christ honestly, point out and address those questions selflessly. In everyone else i see their own Ego, whether it is their society, or their own individual. Especially if you understand the moment they are in. Their Ego is. Their current, momentary and fleeting selfish interest is. The most comical thing of all is, that no amount of luxury and wealth in this world, which is what everyone is really fighting for, is ever enough. Their imaginary false picture about themselves, is turning their souls in to a void. The bottomless pit. A beast. Demon. Destroyer. Devourer. Call it how ever you like it. Even when they are above all the rules, that apply to everyone else except them . When they are that eye, above the pyramid of society. Pharaoh - false god. When they are no longer able to recognize, that they are not actually above everyone, but quite the opposite. The irony of the devil. Although their evil is sad and tragic, beyond any words. They themselves are a sorrow. Pitiful. And that is what most of humanity do not understands about Jesus. For them, that is also a paradox. Because they all love, when they can hate their own enemy. When they can have their own Ego revenge, right now. Although that same revenge, won't turn back time for them. And whatever they lost, they won't get back. Therefore, they wont fill full ever again. Can you imagine? Just how hard for them will be, to lose their own life. Everything they struggled, so hard for, their whole lives. And maintain any goodness, in their souls. When it all disappears, in an instant. They really think(imagine) they'll go to heaven, with peace within themselves? That God will say to them: Yes monster, come in. And wreck havoc. Again. You can freely spin in your own vicious and malignant circle, as you have been so far. All my attempt to teach you better, are just a joke. Take care. God bless you.
One main purpose of a cope is to discover (or fabricate) meaning in events, no? A cope can be true or false. If true, then it is a good and useful cope. I think PK is right!
@@eveningprimrose3088yeah. Coping has been a great tool in how I deal with tragic events in my life. Doesn't mean you don't eventually grow out of it or find some better coping mechanism 😅
This is such a cheap bait... You DO realize that most of true christians have always been the poor ones?! And you DO realize that well-standing christians have always been sharing with the ones in need. Hence, "the West has fallen" episode. People with half brain actually BOTHER to listen to an episode before commenting.
Are you under the impression we should give even more of our resources away to people who can't maintain a functioning society? What good would that do?
Doesn’t the Bible also describe civilization as a city. God is building a city, we build cities, and there is something difficultly spiritual entwined in that venture.
Humanities true birth was when Adam and Eve left the Garden. Kingsnorth wants to re-enter the Garden. Humanity was still-born, when it was exiled. Kingsnorth gets the tragedy of mortality and degeneration. He must be Born Again, obviously ;-)
Drawing insight and wisdom from biblical narratives is one thing. But taking literally a story about how a perfect creation was forever marred by a lying snake and a gullible woman is quite another thing. Have we not reached the point where the failure to make this distinction explicitly clear, as this conversation fails to do, leads so many to throw out the baby of scriptural insight and wisdom with the bathwater of inerrancy and literalism?
We long for a perfection that isn't here, and is materially impossible. Either reality is supposed to be perfect, is fallen, and we intuitively know that and yearn for what used to be, or humans are so deeply deluded and ill-fitted for reality that we should go extinct, yearning for and becoming hyper anxious pursuing perfection that is unattainable. Obviously the former is true, thus, the Genesis' Fall is literally true
Fairytales end in marriage, which is the inversion of Jesus, beginning with marriage. Jesus is very-telling about what's on his mind. He is honest before fact. Jesus reads the spirit of earth, found in the ink of the book. Humans expell ink to confuse its pray/prey who are under seeing. That's amen/a men under God not humanity beside Jesus.
@CarlosVargas-jz8gl there was a time when heaven was earth. Until the times of the past and future catch up with the present, there will only be time. When that time comes we will live in the moment. Putting an end to time and allowing us to live by the people not by the clock. Jesus is the key to the c(lock). The "second" coming is near, just in time to give an extra hand.
I’ve been listening to this. I love listening to your channel. I find this is very interesting because to me it’s more simple than all the discussion you’re having. I am Roman Catholic but I love our faith that loves Jesus and Mary. Because that’s who I love. But I have always been taught that if you just follow the Lord Jesus Christ and do what He’s telling you to do… in the Bible and in your faith, etc. if you follow Him closely and try to unite with Him that all these other things will fall into place. Seek ye first, the kingdom of God, and all the rest will be given to you. Isn’t that what you’re saying in a nutshell? I don’t think it needs all this discussion! That’s confusing me because the more you talk about it the less you do it. Kind of like what you’re saying. The more you’re trying to do some thing specific it’s not going to achieve it as easily if you just follow what God says, and let things happen. We live in a world where there’s good and evil and so when we find ourselves near evil, we get out quick, we do the best we can, but I think you’re complicating it quite a bit at least in my humble opinion. It seems so simple I think anyway. I love listening to all of this, but it seems like extra wording to say something pretty simply. I agree with what you said 100% Thank you though…love it all!God bless you.
Great episode, Jonathan! I could listen to Paul for days and days.
Paul should deliver this speech at ARC
Highly unlikely...probably negates their whole mission.
@@2godbeinfinitegloryI don't think so. It negates the whole WEF thing, but ARC needs to be more open minded than that.
@@wilker374 Basically, try to imagine convincing Jordan Peterson to embrace this message and abandon the whole save Western civilization agenda. Love him and his message, but I doubt it.
Thank you so much for the inspiration - from an ordinary grandma who has come to appreciate the perceived 'behindness' of the culture down here at the bottom of Africa.
What Paul says about the beggars and poor people putting the emperor in check remembered me the beggar cursing at King David and the king tolerating it and saying "let him, I need it".
Quite Good. Engaging and Relevant.
I am reminded of Saint Seraphim Rose’s words “The answer to Nietzsche is Saint Anthony The Great”
I finally got a hold of a copy of his life, so I shall now go and dive into that at long last. Saint Anthony that is.
Thank you both for your labours. May Christ increase your Humility and Grace and keep you both on the Narrow and Straight Path towards His Heavenly Kingdom.
Dearest Brother Jonathan. I know you are busy, but if you ever considered doing a video of some kind on a life or teaching of a Modern Saint, that would be wonderful. Beauty First! The people don’t realize the Church is still producing Saints!
With poor Love in Christ,
Your Brother,
- Silouan.
I can’t only say, WOW, until I listen to this again and pray about it. Thank you.
I think one thing i always learn from paul is that we can never Settle in this world. We are essentially Pilgrims.
Some times we want to settle in this our idea of "Christian Civilization " that we dont realise that God is still taking us on a journey and we might find ourselves fleeing as refugees to the Desert after just being lords in the city. Heaven and earth shall pass away!
True! As the Canticle of Habakkuk says, "That I might rest in the day of trouble: when I go up to the people of my sojourning." (LXX translation)
"Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls." - (Jeremiah 6:16a) Paul does a good job of reminding us where the good way is, but it'll cost us if we want to walk in it (and yet we must).
Just beautiful citation: thank you
When Paul talks about the Roman Empire influencing Christianity, I wonder how much environmentalism still influences (directs?) his Christianity.
I write that also deeply appreciating him and his work. I just see his old activist self bleeding through at times.
Yes! I wonder the same thing. I believe Paul's heart is in the right place, but I also sense a little bit of resentment-fueled environment activism in him.
We all have our worldly tendencies much like you can still see the classical liberal in some other Christian converts. It takes all kinds, we can all bring something to light that the other isn't seeing
@@alvareo92 yes!
What's wrong with environmental activism?
Environmentalism isn't bad. Christians being stewards of the earth is part of teachings, we should be looking after the planet.
I have no idea why people are agaisnt environmentalism? Do you enjoy the oceans being filled with plastic? Do you enjoy wildlife consuming this plastic? Do you like having microplastics in your body due to fish consuming plastics? Do you like the fact so much land is being used to create landfills? Do you enjoy not having clean air to breathe? Do you like swimming in sewage? Do you enjoy seeing sterile landscapes devoid of greenery? Do you not want to see healthy ecosystems filled with a multitude of fascination species?
People who just dismiss environmentalism because of the acts of annoying protestors are just as bad as the protestors.
The cause is good, I can't imagine any sane human wants to destroy nature for endless growth. We need to create a balance.
Re: Constantine becoming Christian (along with Charlemagne): from what I know, both of these men's wives played a pivotal role in the conversion. Brings back that point about the man being the head and women being the neck of the family.
I think you mean Clovis, not Charlemagne.
You have a good point. There were several Saints who became Christian through women. Saint Constantine had his mother Saint Helena, Augustine had his mother and, not Charlemange, but Clovis the King of the Franks had a Christian wife who made him convert.
I have been saying this for close to a decade. Thank you for uploading this.
Thanks, Jonathan, for having this conversation. As a follow-up, you might take a look at chapter four of _The Lost Seeds of Learning_ (Classical Academic Press, 2021) for a further exploration of what the Incarnation implies about cultural transmission.
Really appreciate this conversation. The thought/observation that the culture is downstream of the lived life of Christians is so helpful. It reflects a truth about multiplication where that which is sacrificed to God enters into the miracle of the seed.
Wonderful discussion. I'm such a beginner even after years of searching but I love the way these two exceptionally gifted men bring so much understanding to being Christian and the difficultt times we are going through
Pray and praise
The city can become a compensation for our lack of inner "civility." That is the problem. Our civilization lost its heart and has no view toward cultivating the inner man whatsoever. Christians must oppose the mechanisms that crush the soul and spirit while supporting those that uplift it. That is the ambiguity we saw with COVID. The hospital became rather inhospitable. Though obviously the hospital is good it is not the ultimate good. What we now call civilization is always already misanthropic, and Christendom has lost its saltiness, i.e. its single-mindedness toward God. Everything is crying out for true martyrs but nobody wants to be one.
10:45 “Our civilization is one where the fewest people die of hunger…”
Monocrop agriculture and agriculture of the Machine may prove to be the thing that kills themost human beings. Our future may be like the opening scenes of Interstellar.
We are sacrificing the hungry mouths of the future for the gluttony of the present.
Brilliant, thank you both so much. I hope you will have many more conversations in this vein...
Thank you ❤
I think even if we were to use the term "christian civilization", it ended at the Enlightenment. From the Enlightenment, it most rightly Modern civilization, which is by its nature and spirit Leviathan or Promethean and deeply anti Christian.
The Enlightenment has its roots in Christianity. Just because the fashionable set had Enlightenment thinking, the average person was simply Christian well after the Enlightenment. It’s a Christian civilization because the Enlightenment was nonetheless a manifestation of Christianity. Post-rock still relies on rock as its origin.
And a forest fire has its basis in the forest. @@AliciatheCho
@AliciatheCho there's a difference between a thing in absolute terms, as it would be defined, and its derivatives. Both realities exist simultaneously: that the society was still "Christian" and that it was very demostratably not Christian. Jonathan and Paul and Christians in general are talking about an objectively Christian society.
I agree with you intellectually; but on the whole, and on the layman's lives, Christianity is still very pivotal.
@@AliciatheCho well, you are correct it has it's roots in Christianity. But that doesn't mean it's Christianity or its good. If you follow the Christianity story, the Anti-Christ, has its origin within Christianity, not another religion. But it subverts Christianity.
"Progressive Christianity" has it's roots in Christianity, but is far from what Christianity teaches. All the Heretics have their roots from Christianity, but it doesn't mean that they are for the good of Christianity.
bit disappointing that they did not problematise ARC, Peterson & Co. Maybe Jonathan is ready at the moment to have a critical stance towards his famous friends
Let’s do another talk with Paul
"Western Civilization went up in the chimneys of Dachau." Cormac Mccarthy
Sorry to hear that even Cormac McCarthy believed that tale.
Funny Dachau is a pretty good place to live in Germany today that happened in WWII the past.
There are worse places to live in today like in Southern California except for the super wealthy that is it's fine for them.
Wow… Paul, never heard of you before but you are spot on imo. I found your channel and subbed 😅👍
When you misunderstand the fall, everything that follows is off target. The fall is a change in our internal conditions. Until that internal condition is resolved, nothing can be fixed. That being said, everything is going exactly as planned. It's the fallen state that tells you society is corrupt. No. It's perfect
It's not planned, rather foreseen. The plan is to be united to God. In the Garden Adam and Eve had that opportunity. Not taking it lead to the fallen world, which the Trinity foresaw and was prepared to save man in order to have him united with them
Wow! What a great talk! What's the name of the talk and the text that Jonathan and Paul keep refering to?
Thank you for this video. I've never heard of either of you. You mentioned North Korea. I follow voice of the martyrs ministry. Testimonies of North Korean Christians who live in brutal conditions, starvation and severe persecution, to be a follower of Christ you may be put in a prison camp or be executed if caught praying or possessing a bible. Some have escaped to south Korea for what they hoped would be freedom to worship. They didn't know that "they" were actually the biblical church suffering persecution as the scripture states. 2 Timothy 3:12 Some returned to North Korea dissolutioned by what they found. I've thought that about America, America pushes this idea of democracy and freedom and it ends up a pursuit of the material which is actually "anti-christian. I read my Bible and then look at my American culture and they are at odds. The Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy said: Demas has left me for the cares of the world. Some preach 2 Chronicles 7:14 "if my people...." and declare this is the cure for americas woes. Paul Kingsworth is probably correct, Christianity in America, as it is now must die before it can be brought back to life. You see how these "supposed" revivals have quickly fizzled out. Jesus said: "you cannot serve God and mammon" you will love one and hate the other or visa versa. Each one of us must, as an individual grapple with the same inner war that The Apostle Paul had in Romans 7: until we thank Jesus Christ who can give us the victory over the "natural man" side of us. I like what Paul said about the culture adapting to a true Christian, for they will see the humility and beauty of one who truly follows Christ. Currently Christians are adapting/adopting the culture and until this reverses, true Christianity will continue to die in America. Question: can you have money and things without money and things having you? Each person must decide. Some have retreated to a monastery for they knew they could not resist the culture and closely follow Christ too. Consider Galatians 2: 20
Great lecture!! - Glory to God.
I like what Kingsnorth says near the end, that we shouldn’t worry about preserving western culture, just go back to our spiritual roots of desert spirituality. From there, we will grow in health. David Bentley Hart says Christianity’s fecundity is in recourse to the early witness, not late growth. To reproduce XIX c. Tsarist Russian Orthodoxy is a dead end, but reinvestment in primitive Christianity will yield renewal. This is why he patristic witness is crucial. Protestants threw out the Church to ‘embrace’ the Bible. But the Bible was collated by the fathers whose scholarship and spiritual leadership built the early Christian church.
39:55 Any links to the icons of Theotokos and of Christ that Elder Paisios wrote based on his visions of them? Thanks.
Given the narrative framework of the "Legend of the Twin Swords of the Azure Dragon":
One Sword's Magic: Yin Energy - This sword could embody the principles of Yin, representing the receptive, passive, and cooling aspects of nature. Its magic might be associated with water, healing, protection, or the manipulation of defensive or restorative energies. When used, it could calm turbulent waters or create barriers of water or mist to shield or obscure. The sword might have the power to draw moisture from the air, heal wounds by channeling the natural flow of life energy, or even control the flow of water to redirect attacks or direct pathways through natural barriers.
The Other Sword's Magic: Yang Energy - Conversely, this sword would embody Yang, symbolizing the active, aggressive, and warming aspects. Its magic could be tied to fire, destruction, or the channeling of offensive, dynamic energy. When wielded, this sword might have the ability to part waters with force, create flames or heat to evaporate water, or to strike with such intensity that it causes the air or water around it to break apart violently. It could embody the aspect of cutting through obstacles with sheer force or purging negative energies with light or heat.
I love Paul’s focus on the poor and the monastics.
Stories are the grid for perception as strongly held by daily life of those who lived continually in the seasons, the weather, always working with their hands, freeing up the great power of the Right Hemisphere.
Droppin that Greatest Reset on em.
The Republic fell when the government class rammed the 16th Amendment through in the dead of the night over a holiday. You you tax those slave nations you have conquered, not your citizens, unless you see no difference between them.
9:19 Jonathan has picked up one of Petersons ticks
😂
PAGEAU AND KINGSNORTH 🎉
Cargo cult, a museum of a once living culture.
Firmly on the side of The Pope crowns the emperor, the emperor doesn't crown the pope
Papal coronation of Charlemagne as emperor in 800 is another piece of evidence in supporting the view that the coronation ceremony was both religious and necessary for the conferment of the imperial dignity, since the Pope was evidently following Byzantine precedent.
Still, while I agree with the sentiment, we live in a world where the pope is an ideologue and the "kings" are actors. We need something even deeper than the medieval vision.
As Catholics this is just the Fatima prophecies being fullfilled, humans didn't listen so now we are chastized, after the spanking The Church will be restored more glorious than before.
Maybe Paul himself just needs to become a monk. It doesn't mean everyone in the world needs to become a monk. Someone has to grow the food, at a minimum. Someone has to defend the innocent, at a minimum. Renunciation and pacifism aren't universally literal values in a fallen world.
A vision of a "Christian civilization" that Kingsnorth might agree with is in the book The Benedict Option by his and Pageau's fellow Orthodox, Rod Dreher. Yes we can go back to the monastic and ascetic roots of the culture to regenerate our society in times of crisis. We don't have to call into question the value of civilization itself.
Edit: Also I might recommend Why Liberalism Failed by Catholic political scientist Patrick Deneen. Deneen describes modern liberal society as an "anticulture" rather than a culture.
Yes. I think this is right.
It seems to me that if people just actually tried to be Christian and follow Jesus' most important commandment of Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself as though it was their GPS for their life, not trying to make errant moral justifications for everything - society would be redeemed almost overnight. If we really believed it and acted on it.
If the power structure and the grass roots considered this philosophy their north star and the thing to which all other moral philosophy is subordinated, there would be far less of these horrors occurring. Like Paul said, the unabashed adoption of the seven deadly sins as almost virtuous is at the heart of the rot in civilization. Many of us are simply aiming at the wrong thing most of the time.
True. But this comes naturally to average Joes once the institutions in society are set right. So I still believe there needs to be some top-down political activity in communion with the bottom-up transformation in people's hearts
@@wilker374 completely agree. The leaders and wielders of power have to believe in the wisdom of this philosophy and the wisdom of the average Joe or they will act like parasites, exploiting the goodwill of those below them in the hierarchy as they play by a different set of rules. The setting right is imperative and requires vigilance and humbleness throughout. When we abdicate our responsibility to make life easier, we have to place it in the hands of people who care even more deeply than the average with the requisite wisdom to bare the excess weight of that. That's why I think ultimately, a trembling fear of God's judgement and genuine love for all people has to be at the core of any leader. They must be humble. Without that, their commitment to personal sacrifice for this ideal won't be there and we'll tend toward pride and hubris.
Thank you
Thanks gentlemen!
There's a question that's sitting in my mind for quite some time now. If all professions come from Cain, and lead towards more violence and destruction, what about carpentry? Noa built the ark, st. Joseph was a carpenter, Jesus was a carpenter. Is carpentry in a way the best profession or a thing to do in this world?
I don't think all "professions" come from Cain. Sheppards are still very much necessary...
What about firemen, police,nurses etc.
This is great!
I have an audiobook of The Outline Of Sanity by GK Chesterton on my channel, which may interest this audience. It's about the thing we might go back to after The Monopoly falls.
Sounds good!
I am from India. It's absolutely true. No hope except God of the Bible.
6:21 yes. Just watch the movie Seven. True.
Got the message 👁️👁️👌🏽
"The west has fallen. Billions must die." Jonathan Pageau and Paul Kingsnorth
Quite literally. Google how much of world's food is produced by western civilization.
Kek 😎
I don't see how you reach that conclusion.
Or perhaps: We need something stronger and more fundamental to function as the pillar of the world than "Western Civilization" to fight against the globalists at WEF who really wish for billions to die at the perils of western civilization.
Klaus Pageau.
We gave up our civilization for the benefit of ungrateful idiots.
Many such cases
Who are they?
@@jittertn they?
@@radagast7200 who are the ungrateful idiots?
You mean the oligarchs, don’t you?
Paul is spot on. also in America watching MAGA co-opt christianity for purposes of wordy power is very alarming.
I think we can see Christ in the ancient myths and legends....
Plant/dog mom has to mean we are close to the edge.
Looks like an Inis Mor hand knit Aran sweater.
I believe it is a designed paradox.
He's dressed exactly like Lindybeige.
How about we go to Mars AND revive the old stories?
How about the eastern?
Fallen. Duh.
I’ve been listening to this. I love listening to your channel.
I find this is very interesting because to me it’s more simple than all the discussion you’re having.
I am Roman Catholic but I love our faith that loves
Jesus and Mary. Because that’s who I love.
But I have always been taught that if you just follow the Lord Jesus Christ and do what He’s telling you to do…
in the Bible and in your faith, etc.
if you follow Him closely and try to unite with Him that all these other things will fall into place.
Seek ye
first, the kingdom of God, and all the rest will be given to you.
Isn’t that what you’re saying in a nutshell?
I don’t think it needs all this discussion! That’s confusing me because the more you talk about it the less you do it.
Kind of like what you’re saying. The more you’re trying to do some thing specific it’s not going to achieve it as easily if you just follow what God says,
and let things happen.
We live in a world where there’s good and evil and so when we find ourselves near evil, we get out quick, we do the best we can,
but I think you’re complicating it quite a bit at least in my humble opinion.
It seems so simple I think anyway.
I love listening to all of this, but it seems like extra wording to say something pretty simply.
Thank you though…love it all!God bless you.
So basically Christian’s shouldn’t have an apologetic, and it shouldn’t be the answer to putting all systems, ideologies, and those who exalt themselves above Christ under his feet? It should only be evangelical as so far that it saves an individual and by that it shouldn’t matter the culture? I appreciate what you guys are trying to get at, but it’s important to think deeper on the implications of it VS what you WANT the implications to be.
You eat from the tree of knowledge and you become barred from the tree of life. Redeem your soul from the serpent. Atonement does naught.
Sacrifice the flesh, the knowledge of good and evil and unlock the tree of life. Why have thou forsaken me? Follow the ways of the holy spirit.
Beware of those that worship the serpent.
Upon the celestial sphere is the mapping of mankinds psyche, the search for the golden fleece, you will find the dragon. A Globus Cruciger is an inverted Ankh.
10,000 Protestant sexes? Lol what in the world is that. This doesn't have to be a competition
Not sexes. Sects.
I agree unfortunately.
Amen Paul Kingsnorth, amen.
When future waters are rising, it's best not to be too securely anchored to the past.
Well, I can't see how not. It's our best bet on many fronts. We are the ones who can look at the past and see what they got right/wrong. Doesn't mean that the end result wouldn't be something new.
God can only work with us and enter our working if we keep close to and inside humility and bow to him as the power..it is why those humiliated and herein find humility are close to god ... conversion is found in our brokenness we go to our knees from this place and He can enter.
the key phrase.... "protect/save The Root"... THAT IS WHAT an ARK does. AND the Ark itself is part of that root, as are the animals, and Everything onboard
We are social creatures, but that shouldn`t mean that we should abandon individual common sense. And vice versa.
Now, some imagine that is a paradox. Therefore impossible. But as far i can see, paradox only exist in human minds. When their imaginary friend, the Ego, that false unrealistic picture of one self, doesn`t truly know it`s self. Everything they identify themselves with. But is in love with a lie, about one self. That goes for society, as well as for the individual.
And again, as far i can see, only those who follow Christ honestly, point out and address those questions selflessly. In everyone else i see their own Ego, whether it is their society, or their own individual. Especially if you understand the moment they are in. Their Ego is. Their current, momentary and fleeting selfish interest is.
The most comical thing of all is, that no amount of luxury and wealth in this world, which is what everyone is really fighting for, is ever enough.
Their imaginary false picture about themselves, is turning their souls in to a void. The bottomless pit. A beast. Demon. Destroyer. Devourer. Call it how ever you like it.
Even when they are above all the rules, that apply to everyone else except them . When they are that eye, above the pyramid of society. Pharaoh - false god.
When they are no longer able to recognize, that they are not actually above everyone, but quite the opposite.
The irony of the devil.
Although their evil is sad and tragic, beyond any words. They themselves are a sorrow. Pitiful.
And that is what most of humanity do not understands about Jesus. For them, that is also a paradox. Because they all love, when they can hate their own enemy. When they can have their own Ego revenge, right now. Although that same revenge, won't turn back time for them. And whatever they lost, they won't get back. Therefore, they wont fill full ever again.
Can you imagine?
Just how hard for them will be, to lose their own life. Everything they struggled, so hard for, their whole lives. And maintain any goodness, in their souls. When it all disappears, in an instant.
They really think(imagine) they'll go to heaven, with peace within themselves?
That God will say to them: Yes monster, come in. And wreck havoc. Again. You can freely spin in your own vicious and malignant circle, as you have been so far. All my attempt to teach you better, are just a joke.
Take care.
God bless you.
Western Civilization lives in me!
.... hence your overweight BMI.
Too posh the both of ya
Pageau is definitely no posh.
Good but it's still cope for what is coming.
One main purpose of a cope is to discover (or fabricate) meaning in events, no? A cope can be true or false. If true, then it is a good and useful cope. I think PK is right!
@@eveningprimrose3088yeah. Coping has been a great tool in how I deal with tragic events in my life. Doesn't mean you don't eventually grow out of it or find some better coping mechanism 😅
It's hilarious how we're all just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks.
Through glass darkly for sure
If you are a follower of Christ and yet there are billions of poor, what does that say about Christians?
This is such a cheap bait...
You DO realize that most of true christians have always been the poor ones?! And you DO realize that well-standing christians have always been sharing with the ones in need.
Hence, "the West has fallen" episode.
People with half brain actually BOTHER to listen to an episode before commenting.
What
Are you under the impression we should give even more of our resources away to people who can't maintain a functioning society? What good would that do?
Lol this isn't even high school level
Jesus himself said the poor would always be with us.
Doesn’t the Bible also describe civilization as a city. God is building a city, we build cities, and there is something difficultly spiritual entwined in that venture.
Uh, no. Where does it say any men built the New Jerusalem? You seem to have no idea what is being discussed.
No, it isn't dead .. how disgusting for you to say so
Nothing is gone ❤️🌹 We rebuke you! In the name of Yeshua.
Heavenly Father is in charge
Humanities true birth was when Adam and Eve left the Garden. Kingsnorth wants to re-enter the Garden. Humanity was still-born, when it was exiled. Kingsnorth gets the tragedy of mortality and degeneration. He must be Born Again, obviously ;-)
Drawing insight and wisdom from biblical narratives is one thing. But taking literally a story about how a perfect creation was forever marred by a lying snake and a gullible woman is quite another thing. Have we not reached the point where the failure to make this distinction explicitly clear, as this conversation fails to do, leads so many to throw out the baby of scriptural insight and wisdom with the bathwater of inerrancy and literalism?
I think pague talk about what literal means before.
We long for a perfection that isn't here, and is materially impossible. Either reality is supposed to be perfect, is fallen, and we intuitively know that and yearn for what used to be, or humans are so deeply deluded and ill-fitted for reality that we should go extinct, yearning for and becoming hyper anxious pursuing perfection that is unattainable.
Obviously the former is true, thus, the Genesis' Fall is literally true
Fairytales end in marriage, which is the inversion of Jesus, beginning with marriage. Jesus is very-telling about what's on his mind. He is honest before fact. Jesus reads the spirit of earth, found in the ink of the book. Humans expell ink to confuse its pray/prey who are under seeing. That's amen/a men under God not humanity beside Jesus.
I thought the end of times was the finality of a marriage of heaven and earth
@CarlosVargas-jz8gl there was a time when heaven was earth. Until the times of the past and future catch up with the present, there will only be time. When that time comes we will live in the moment. Putting an end to time and allowing us to live by the people not by the clock. Jesus is the key to the c(lock). The "second" coming is near, just in time to give an extra hand.
@@jamescastro2037 So after the last judgment there will be a final union between the two aka marriage
@CarlosVargas-jz8gl in a manner of speaking, yes. But not limited to a single term to define it's essence.
Psychedelic nonsense. You wrote that while high on some drug.
Hey Jonathan Pageau have you already converted to islam?
Wat?
Uzza, Lat, and Manat 🦤🦤🦤
Why would he pick up the worst of all?
Gross
Lol
I’ve been listening to this. I love listening to your channel.
I find this is very interesting because to me it’s more simple than all the discussion you’re having.
I am Roman Catholic but I love our faith that loves
Jesus and Mary. Because that’s who I love.
But I have always been taught that if you just follow the Lord Jesus Christ and do what He’s telling you to do…
in the Bible and in your faith, etc.
if you follow Him closely and try to unite with Him that all these other things will fall into place.
Seek ye
first, the kingdom of God, and all the rest will be given to you.
Isn’t that what you’re saying in a nutshell?
I don’t think it needs all this discussion! That’s confusing me because the more you talk about it the less you do it.
Kind of like what you’re saying. The more you’re trying to do some thing specific it’s not going to achieve it as easily if you just follow what God says,
and let things happen.
We live in a world where there’s good and evil and so when we find ourselves near evil, we get out quick, we do the best we can,
but I think you’re complicating it quite a bit at least in my humble opinion.
It seems so simple I think anyway.
I love listening to all of this, but it seems like extra wording to say something pretty simply.
I agree with what you said 100%
Thank you though…love it all!God bless you.