Just to extra clarify- Josh and I still play many of the cards we discussed today in our decks. We’re just discussing the trends of EDH we have noticed, especially when it comes to the ever growing number of 2-CMC ramp options, especially when you’re not playing Green. We generally build our decks to be a 7-8 power level and prefer games to last anywhere between 9-11 turns. Commander has gotten faster over the years, and especially as Red gets more and more damage options. At the end of the day, your playgroup will define the way the game is played most in your experience. If you want things to trend one direction or another, consider discussing with your playgroup! -jimmy
What you need to do is to make sure you mark - in each video if necessary - the importance of the right playgroup. The playgroup is what matters in almost anything and almost anything is defined by it. The budget, the power level and most important of all, the fun.
Yeah, the creep is hard to avoid. I count myself among those who like a longer game, but I’ve found myself occasionally building decks that “oops, I win” on turn 7 or 8. It’s becoming hard for me to calibrate my power level.
Them saying Rune-scarred demon isn't good enough made me fly back in my chair. I was like "are these guys insane? It's a fucking 6/6 flying body and it's a repeatable bounce effect if you have flicker effects AND it can get double triggers with cards like Yarok. I'm incredibly against that take they threw out, far more than their other takes like using 2 drop ramp against 3 drop ramp.
Better examples of more efficient equipment would be Blood-Forged Battleaxe, Basilisk Collar and Shadowspear. Also re: the costy swords, we could use a few more reasonably priced effects similar to that on Mana Barbs that punishes the untapping and retapping of lands to nerf Sword of Feast and Famine.
All cards are playable as long as you like to play with them, i have 8 deck built, not on lists, the average price for each of my decks is $200, i belive i have invested enough. Its a casual game, once we move from play for fun to play to win, we will lose the "soul of commander"
I understand you. I think it's a matter of the power level. If I play a focused deck I probably play some of these cards, but if the power level increase to optimized decks I personally wouldn't play any of the cards they mentioned.
@@NoBody-ro3xj turn one miss land drop discard vorinclex. Turn 2 swamp, exile elvish spirit guide, buried alive for sheoldred, voidwinnower, razaketh. Reanimate sheoldred. Lose 7 life pass... Good clean magic.
most everyone i know doesn't care if it's long or short. All that really matters is if everyone has a chance instead of just being dead in the water. More games = better, is what an old cEDH player said on the podcast and they got laughed at.
Tiny Leaders literally died because as soon as you cap CMC at 3, it solves the format & Ezuri & Geist of St Traft are the best commanders in the format, bar none, no exceptions. Arguably with Geist even far ahead of Ezuri. cEDH crowd is so hard at work trying to *solve* Commmander, that their efficiency is spilling over into normal Commander. Wizards is pushing Commander because it's the only format people want to play in paper, *Huh, why am I not surprised nobody wants to play Standard or what do they call it now Historic? Decks are hundreds of dollars and subject to constant bans.* I guess people are only willing to invest to play SAFE formats where their deck won't be banned off, and their deck doesn't become illegal in 6 months.
@@JS-wk4oe i agree with you. After hearing this though. I feel a lil burned out. Fuck can't afford to enjoy the game if I can't play my enjoyable 5 6 and sometimes 7 cmc cards n just win
@@JS-wk4oe mtg arena got me back in the paper game.. then like an idiot I wanted to buy my standard deck IRL First they banned half.. I changed that and now rotation F-ed me Vintage is too expensive.. I am not paying 200,- for lands I sold away for 50,- ten plus years ago Now I’m building a commander deck still spendy but 100s is a lot better than the mortgage you need to play vintage Wizzards should just reprint dual lands etc. value should come from rarity and age not gameplay need.. Sucks for people with revised duals but I feel they would even like it if that means they can cheaply get the other duals for all their decks. I owned a set of Tundra but i would have no problem if they reprinted it then
Even though it's been outclassed handily by other, newer cards I still find the simplicity of Vindicate's three word description "Destroy Target Permanent" very aesthetically pleasing. I still run it, even though it's not optimal.
Being able to hit lands with Vindicate is still very good and very relevant - which Jimmy actually proved with his "a lot of our decks run stripmine-like effects"-argument.
I think there's an important distinction to be made in regards to "long" games vs "slow" games. I don't mind games that go on for a while but when somebody's taking a turn that lasts 10 to 15 minutes I wanna blow up the world.
Yep... it's one of the reasons why I'm losing interest with every year. What's the point of playing battle-cruiser magic, when everyone is cheating out cards or playing combo?
@@andrewhoffman1087 I mean, you can still find a playgroup or some people that likes battlecruiser, casual magic isn't dead. That being said, the format has on average become more streamlimed and powerful over the years.
@@UltimacraftedArmy I think the argument was that battle cruiser was more inherent in EDH and now you know you're the odd one out for playing it. Not so much because new strats have been discovered but that WOTC has purposefully printed cards that ruins the original spirit of the format.
@@ELFanatic I'm not going to pretend that wotc had nothing to do with powercreep in edh, they absolutely do. But I believe that players in general have leaned towards optimizing decks over time and that this is completely natural for any format.
I honestly think that this would have been a better take. I get the feeling that a lot of the community views power creep as a detriment, and celebrating it (as it seems this video does) is probably the wrong tack. Ya know, it would be super cool to see a "in memorium" episode each year where they go over the "cards we lost" due to better printings, better effects and other stuff. I'd give it a chuckle.
I absolute abhor the power creep in mtg. This standard seems really unhealthy. Mythics get more value than ever, fair enough. But even commons get disgusting value. Black has disgustingly efficient removal, so does green as Ram Through is basically a green "destroy target creature and deal x damage to it's controller"
"These cards have gotten worse over time." It's more like the playgroup for the Command Zone got more tuned. There are tons of examples of "better" cards that they gave in this video that have been out for years, even longer than when they started this channel. The only difference now is that they're upshifting in power and upshifting in cost. It's pretty obvious that a cycle of Swords would be better and stronger than a less than a dollar Loxodon Warhammer. Or running OG duels or shocks and fetches and non-tapped lands are much stronger than tap lands. Or running Mana Drain instead of Counterspell is obviously better. It doesn't take a genius to understand that the more expensive cards are better for good reason. I would've preferred a video where they talked about older commander cards that have been outclassed by newer cards with similar text but obviously better, such as the Explosive Vegetation being outclassed minutely by Circuitous Route and then Migration Path or even Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage as functionally stronger versions of Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds. It feels like a wasted opportunity that I'd hope they would explore in the future. However, this video just feels like I'm being told my cards aren't as good as the obviously better non-budget counterparts. And that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
It's funny reading the first paragraph, because if you ask one group of people Command Zone's decks are way too tuned, but if you ask this other group Command Zone's decks are way too weak. Not harping on you or anything, I just find the phenomenon to be funny.
Same. Stuff like Garruk's Uprising vs Colossal Majesty? Great example. Both uncommons, fairly easy to get and cheap. Loxodon vs Swords? Wtf that's a $1 bulk card vs $40+ cards. I guess even the "fun" version of Magic isn't for me. Next year's version of this episode: "Why would anyone play with Scry Lands when you can just play Gaea's Cradle or Tropical Island?" (And I *have* Tropical Islands, but the disconnect here was just staggering to me)
As someone who has recently come back to the game from a long break, I've found a very similar experience to what was discussed on the podcast. Overall the is the speed of the game is much faster. Most of my old decks were tuned to start dropping bombs around turn 6-8 but when playing my old decks against what people have today most folks I play against are already trying to close out games around turn 6-8. I 100% agree that the old slow cards we used to play are getting pushed out as the format speeds up. Loxodon Warhammer is actually a great example. I used to run this in my mono-green deck because the deck plays big creatures and the warhammer gives a great source of lifelink plus trample to set up your beaters over the next 3-4 combats (and yes I did also have a few swords I could have run instead in the warhammer). Now because of the speed of the format, its better to use equipment that provides imitate benefit plus helps protection the swords provide. Funny enough what I actually replaced the warhammer with was Shadowspear. An equipment that you can play and equip for 3 mana, gives lifelink and trample, plus a crazy good activated ability to help your removal stick.
This episode just cements the fact that I'd far rather be playing 5-6 power level than 7-8. most of the "too slow" cards I'd rather be playing than the recommended replacements
Yeah i hope people's take away from this is, oh i need to be playing better cards. Play cards you like. Play within your budget. Play with people you like to play with.
Stonehewer Giant doesn't declare a target. They have to respond to the activation before you decide what to equip to. So its better than you are giving it credit for.
I agree with their assessment throughout tor’s video except for stonehewer giant. The wording and timing on the giant more often than not will benefit the person controlling the giant, so long as the equipment package is good
Eh. To an extent. There's definitely some amount of that if you just look at their deckbuilding, but at the same time, some of their core points are absolutely correct. Even putting aside cEDH, the general improvements of cards and redundancy of certain effects have definitely allowed for faster and stronger decks. Sometimes it's not even stronger cards, but just more or cheaper copies. For example, let's think about how much stronger the green lands-based ramp package has gotten in the last few years. We've gotten: -Another Crucible of Worlds effect in Ramunap -Reprints of Crucible, Loam, Exploration, and Azusa that made them much more affordable. Crucible is certainly getting up there again but it spent a good deal of time below twenty dollars, which was absurd not long ago. Oracle also got a reprint but Jumpstart hasn't shifted prices much yet. -Two more three-mana extra land cards in Wayward Swordtooth and Dryad of the Illysian Grove -Another three-mana 'lands from top of deck' card in Radha -Many more lands payoffs in Tatyova, Field of the Dead, Scute Swarm, and more (and another one is coming with the Commander Legends simic precon) -More generic land tutors like Golos, Elvish Reclaimer, and Hour of Promise -More affordable to semi-affordable fetchlands in Fabled Passage and Prismatic Vista, plus other good sacrifice lands like the Horizon lands. -More excellent lands-matter commanders in Windgrace, Muldrotha, Golos, Tatyova, and three or four more coming in Legends. The biggest upgrade here isn't even "hey look busted new cards". Golos and Field are certainly a bit silly, but Wayward Swordtooth is in most respects a worse Azusa, not a beter one. Honestly the biggest upshot is that while a fully built extra-lands package isn't exactly cheap, it's much, much cheaper than it used to be, and a decent bit more powerful at the same time. And since that package is cheaper to get into and people incidentally pick up some of those cards, it's gotten much more popular. And there are lots of other examples of this. It's not exactly a huge spikey thing to push your Boros Voltron deck to Akiri or the CL boros precon commander, but those two just saying "draw a card" on them is a massive power upgrade. Boros Voltron just being a deck that isn't absolutely embarrassing to sit down at the table with is a change in the format that's unfolding right in front of our eyes and that's definitely going to speed up those decks - and given where Boros was, that isn't a bad thing. Skyclave Relic is another great example. I've played a decent number of Darksteel Relics in my day, and that card is just an objectively better version of Darksteel. That swap is a very natural thing to make for any player, and it's not that those players are suddenly trying to get extremely spikey, it's just that there's no real reason not to make the change. And that is, some amount of the time, going to let those players get mana they wouldn't otherwise and end a game a turn or two faster. It won't happen often, but it certainly will happen, and spikiness has nothing to do with it.
Calling Vampiric Tutor "easier to get now" made me about unsubscribe. Yes, that $115 card is super easy to get. I can't say anymore without cursing like a sailor. Heck most of the cards they mentioned aren't under $30. Just grab a Great Henge for all your decks, guys. Grab some Expropriates. FFS.
@@ShivaX51 They even mentioned Imperial Seal. Ye, I will just add quarter of my monthly income as 1 card for 1 deck and probably not even see it in a year (if you play other decks as well). That card costs as much as people earn in a MONTH in most of the countries world wide, maybe half. Also a reason why my friends group decided on a budget limit, and you have to make cuts and choices.
This entire episode makes me sad, its basically a "hey even commander is getting power creeped! You remember those fun board states with big silly 5-7 cmc stuff? Not any more, get that crap out of here! If it doesn't win you the game on the spot (an incidentally costs like 10-50 dollars each) then don't run it!"
I never could've imagined that $28 stoneforged mystic (used to be banned in modern) was better than $5 Stonehewer Giant (literally the "budget version")
Yeah they didn't even offer a new card that's been printed to offset it. Everyone over the years has known stone forge is objectively better. In that portion and the loxodon warhammer segment its laughable how they are simple saying this $$$ card is better than this $ card. Even funnier that it's related to voltron/boros, which they've always been bad at covering fairly.
They kinb of misrepresented stonehewer aswell. If the opponent asks what you are targetting with stonehewer they are passing priority on the ability. You only need to activate the ability without naming any target, if it resolves you tutor the equipment and eqiup all as part of the ability, there is no time to kill the creature before it resolves.
"I have never killed someone with Rogue's Passage." That is not my experience at all. It has definitely won me games. I will however concede the fact that it is very costly and it is not activated VERY often. Good video and good content though!
Absolutely agree, I have it in my aggro budget deck, and it's one of the cards I'm most happy to draw! Maybe doesn't always win games, but the cost is absolutely worth it when you need to pass through some dangerous blocks and have no other options... And even if not activated, it's always a great threat for the opponents to see it in play as an option
If you're not in a 3+ color deck you can afford a few utility lands that you may not activate often. Rogue's Passage is one of those that, in most decks does basically nothing, but in some decks will win a game here or there for the very low cost of a utility land slot in a 1 or 2 color deck. Not efficient tactically, but very efficient strategically if you're not pressed for colors in your landbase. You do need to be in a deck that wants to get 1 thing through to win though (so you'd already be running other stuff for this effect).
Zurgo Helmsmasher deck used Rouges Passage quite well.. when you only need to hit once its brilliant. Goblins also used Rogues Passage to get out free goblins of the warchief
Although I understand your points, I see, that this depends a lot on the playgroup. The decks in our Playgroup are definitely not as tuned as yours, oftentimes you just don't play all Talismans because you simply don't have them. I also just think that the Command zone crew creeped up from casual to optimized.
I dont think they creeped there. josh and jimmy have always said they prefer their decks to be 7-8s. I also dont think the play group or affordability effect if a card is good enough anymore. you may sub optimal cards due to price or play group preference but that doesnt change that those cards may have once been the top of their class in the past and would have been in higher power decks and have not decreased in power
Been thinking the same thing. They kept saying missing certain things early is a death sentence and it made me think "man, am I glad my group isn't like that." Maybe it's just me trying to justify running the sub-optimal cards they've mentioned but hey, no problem if I can get away with it on our group right?
I agree but at the same time they did have some valid points that don’t really get answered from the ‘tuned’ arguments. Like yeah if they said ‘tap lands aren’t good anymore just play duals’ I would understand but from this case things like ‘replace return to dust with nature’s claim’ is kind of the crux of what their argument is
Skyshroud is better than explosive veg , migration path whatever other 4 mana grab 2. Migpath has option to cycle. The new one can be kicked to give all creatures 2 +1/+1 counters . There's another one that grabs gates. So depending what you r going for one would be a second best for your deck. But skyshroud easily best
I like this video lots of good insights, however, these comparisons basically assume budget isn't a factor. Yes, your $50 sword is better than a $2 Loxodon hammer, not really a fair comparison for most people. I think if you could only compare cards within $3 in price this would be a very different video. That's probably commanders quarters content though.
How can you have fun building and playing decks, when you limit youself with budget? Just play cards you like. I understand that some people (me included) can't afford some RL cards with ridiculous price tags, but everybody can afford $50 card.
@@ryankelly1246 Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that they can afford it, but not everybody wants to pay $50 for piece of cardboard and will rather spend that money on something more useful or some other hobby. I'm high school student, so I know that money doesn't grow on trees ;)
Yep! Don't care if it's turn 5 or turn 50, if you are eating a ton of time on your turn, I start twitching my eyeball. I do it accidentally from time to time because I don't realize I did it, but then I try and find a way to stop spinning my wheels and do something with it after the game ends, to make the next time better.
Yes, that is something that needs to be brought up. I also have a problem with people who overplay their board to the point that they have a million triggers, draw a thousand cards and do nothing. Next turn, someone wipes it all away after that person spent 15 minutes trying to decide what to do with all the things they have.
It bothers me more when they pass the turn after taking so long. If you’re playing your turn for 30 minutes you better win or lose by the end of it. If you can’t then there is probably something wrong with how you built your deck.
@@jonathonleclare9268 Same. I tend to take long turns on some of my decks myself because I love playing decks that aren't too straightforward in playstyle and I start going apologetic once I feel like I've been thinking for a while. At a certain point I just go "I'd probably fuck this up but lets get it going anyway."
So basically, why would you play an affordable 50cent version of a card, when there is a slightly or decently better premium for 15 bucks? "Loxodon Warhammer?, oh please, get Sword of Fire and Ice instead." "Harmonize?, don't you have the Great Henge?" What about not submitting to the power creep as it happens, keep building decks that are on theme and fun, even if they are not as close to competitive as possible, and play Magic without draining you bank account every other month. The "second best" version of a card costs often a fraction of the premium, and they still do near the freakin same. And the imbalance in power can easily be balanced by diplomacy and politics in this wonderful, social, multiplayer game. I am seriously so grateful for Mitch and the Professor to promote and celebrate the exact opposite of what you do here, and watch Commander VS games with thematic decks without every card being the strongest option in its place.
There are many times when I watch something like Commander VS(Starcity Games) or Commander Clash(MTG Goldfish), see a super cool budget card, and think "I need this in all my decks now." Not evvery card needs to me 10 dollars. Sometimes I just wanna cast my Quiet Speculation and get Unburial Rites to reanimate my Shadowborn Demon and kill your commander.
@@jaygiemtg7511 NGL, I've had that experience. Imp's mischief made me cackle uncontrollably. All the white counterspells do. Anything that breaks the color wheel is just lovely.
I realize this channel doesn’t often take budget into account for the content, but I think this topic in particular is hard to separate from that. It’s hard to listen to 90 minutes of how much all these cards are just not good anymore when often times a lot of them are played because the better counterparts are still very expensive. The great henge is $25. Craterhoof just got reprinted and it’s still 40 bucks. Rune Scarred Demon might not be efficient, but vampiric tutor is $100. Idk that that’s “easier to get”. Stonehewer works better than it was explained, but regardless it costs $2 vs stoneforge’s $20. Loxodon is a buck, the swords are a small fortune. Some suggestions I was totally good with. But I think a lot of the “why is this card still played?” questions for others comes down to cost for many.
The Professor still remembers what it's like to have fun and is actually sad about the game right now, this channel is mostly a tinfoil hat echo chamber, but this time they are spot on, power creep is insane...
@@SifSehwan Ofc there is power creep, no question. But from that to saying that we should not play specific cards because they are considered sub-optimal there is a huge gap that makes me really question their preferences in what "fun" means.
@jvalex18 those games actually feel diverse considering how many combo decks are out there where you durdle until someone gets those X specific cards they need and win on the spot
@jvalex18 Winning through combo every time is still the most boring win ever imo. Every time someone wins with a combo in our playgroup, everyone is like "Well, that was anticlimactic". Also, most of the combo decks aren't even creative, they just use two cards combos that win out of nowhere no matter what happened prior to that. I even remember one game where I went to grab something to drink while there wasn't anything on the board. By the time I came back, the game was over because someone went infinite ... fuuuun. The only combos I care about are the ones involving 4+ cards where you actually have to think and work for it, just like other decks at the table. As a slight PSA, playing 2-card combos is just basically exploiting the format and your 40 life total without caring about the experience people are usually looking for in Commander. This is not Modern or Legacy, there is no prizing on the line. The fun matters, what your opponents want to play matters. Do you want to play your deck and see what it can do? So do your opponents, and getting cheap wins by suddenly comboing off Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity or Mike + Trike or whatever just usually isn't fun for anyone else at the table. Now that doesn't mean you can't play combo if everybody in your meta is up for it. Everyone's notion of fun differs after all, but those metas are definitely rarer. If you want to play combo, the least etiquette you can have is to at least talk about it with other players at the table before starting to play. Don't think only about yourself, this is a SOCIAL format.
That is factually not true. Command the dreadhorde is cheaper then rise of the dark realms. They recommended against the likes of coalition relic and gilded lotus in place of signets and talismans (half the talisman cycle is money I'll give you that.) .
"You can just play Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor." Do you guys think the majority of players can afford those kinds of cards? I think your views may be getting a bit skewed by the playgroups you're often a part of. I spend more on MTG than most of the people in the irl playgroups that I've seen, and I own *zero* Imperial Seals and *zero* Vampiric Tutors. I own a couple ABUR duals and a few other expensive reserved list cards, but this stuff is just so damn expensive, you guys. I would be really interested in seeing a statistics episode on player budget amongst other things. Maybe you could cover most popular deck strategies, pet cards, just other general information specific to players instead of the game? Edit: Same exact thing with the Swords vs. Loxodon Warhammer. It's a common budget option, so few people are able to afford these expensive cards, and this show only exasperates the issue, as I'm sure you know.
I think you are completely correct about their views being skewed by their confirmation bias, do you think that an episode on player budget would also be skewed by they type of people who watch the Command Zone?
@@TobiasBroad That's a very good point, you're probably right. At that point I think it would be a question of how valuable is the data they could get by questioning their demographic specifically.
I've almost stopped watching these guys. They are so bloody out of touch. "We play mostly 6s and 7s!" as they describe decks which are a 9 or 10 at most LGSs and frequently play decks on Game Knights with 4-figure costs, duals, and multiple foil fetch lands. I'm almost at the point where I'm ready to say "Josh... You ARE the problem with the format. You have pushed it in entirely the wrong direction.".
@@icedreamer9629 on watching last months Game Knights I had the exact same thought as Josh cracked an “off” colour fetch to go and find an original dual. I’m genuinely happy to not be the only one who thinks this.
This episode is like the complete opposite of command quarters, Mitch- "This cards expensive play this instead" CZ- "This card is slow play this instead"
@@Hitzel eh yes and no. Yes Tragic Slip exists, but you can't deny that some of their favourites (that were mentioned in this episode) like guardian project, great henge and assassin's trophy are far from budget.
It's a trade off, they're cheaper because they aren't as good. Ultimately it's up to you to decide between MTG power and real world money. Alternatively, proxies.
Not to mention it is an answer to Blood Moon that can slot into any deck, which is funny that this is one of the first episodes in a long time that Josh didn't bring up his hatred for Blood Moon... but said he took the lantern out of all his decks! I personally think it is worth running in all 4 and 5 color decks.
Same, as long as it's not long because the game grinds to a halt. Off topic but I feel like I've come to a point where if things start slowing down, I just come to terms with taking the L and just force people to do something even if it gets me killed.
@@hybridyd1305 Man, 20 turn games being the norm would make me miserable and I'd probably quit playing magic. I can only take a long game every few play sessions. It's like playing 99 stocks on Hyrule Temple in Smash ─ it's fun when we do it, but I am so burnt out on Smash by the time it's over that I will refuse to touch a gamecube controller for at least a day afterward. I wouldn't be able to mentally handle the burnout and fatigue if that become every magic night...
To me, shorter games often feel cheap, like, someone just got a great start, nobody else did and the game ends with none of us feeling like we had a game.
I feel like this video isn't taking into consideration the budget of cards. A lot of the cards that "aren't good enough anymore" are still WAY more affordable than the ones they're recommending instead, and that's why they're still played.
Exactly, I mean are they really so out of touch that they don't realize that price is a major consideration for the average player? Not everyone has $500+ to spend on a commander deck.
@@artyfowl444 Exactly. There are even plenty of recent budget staples that are still used in full power decks like Oakhame Adversary and Mystical Dispute. They didn't mention those though.
Some people have already pointed this out, but you should include the cost of the card when deciding good or bad cards. We all know that 40$-100$ cards are better than the 1$-5$ counterparts, but if the difference between them is 1 mana or instant speed, it is probably well worth it. Take into consideration that not everyone can make 500$+ decks. Perhaps you could have consulted Mitch here. Bacause this is important to consider when building decks. (Going to do a wilde guess here) I think this is due to your playgroup being filled with people with some sort of important relation to the magic community and thus more likely to have more expensive cards, either from easier access or due to this being their job and thus worth investing that much money. But thinking outside a group like this, it becomes more obvious how every game knights people are always amazed how you guys drop 100$+ bombs without reacting (at least price wise)
"Why play Rune-Scarred Demon when you could play Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor?" Well why didn't I think of that, lemme shill out the money to buy those
You Should get Manson on to talk about his polymorph deck, it was so cool and I'd love to hear where he got the idea from and options for building the deck. I really want to do a polymorph brew now.
I just built the deck a few days before they used it and I was like "Hey, thats me deck!". I was using Zedruu as the commander for the card draw, but Kykar is a lot better, I just didn't have one with me
The build is on edhrec I believe. I built the exact same deck and it's alot of fun ( the first time you play it) once your playgroup knows what it does you start becoming the target or they kill kykar right away but still fun
"our play groups power level has increased as we have all bought into newer higher power level cards so we have decided that this is how commander is played these days. toss everything that raises your manacurve above 2,5" there, saved you 90 minutes of your time :)
i mean, everything in the video was objectiv truth. These cards are better, plain and simple. Does that mean your table has to devolve into vintage-lite? hell no
Yup. It’s kind of insufferable at this point. This and the entire letter to the Rules Committee was pretty much just them complaining that their playgroup has delved into pseudo cEDH
@@anguishedcarpet I mean at that point, just get your buddies to use Untap.in or Cockatrice to play for free. At least when you buy the cardboard, you can re-sell it later for some real money. I think part of the fun is when you have people playing kitchen table magic with random cards from their collection if you're going low power.
@@johnbuscher a lot of my buddies dont have a computer and prefer physical cards even if they're proxies. Like 99% of our cards are real, i guess free wasnt the best descriptor to use. I personally use the fuck out of xmage though lol
@@anguishedcarpet depends on your play group and LGS. The people I play with are really only good with proxying cards we own. I’ve been playing with them for more than a decade so I’m not just trying to find a new group
Big fan of longer games here. For me, that's one of the major appeals of Commander over competitive formats. I'm looking for the "King of the Hill" aspect, the multiple huge swings in each game, the long-game planning, and using mental fortitude to push through after others would get bored. If I want fast beatdowns, I'll play literally any other Magic format.
Which is great, but as they explained, your meta needs to allow that, otherwise you will always be overtaken by faster strategies and cards. So what do you and your playgroup do to keep playing longer games? Do you ban certain cards or strategies?
there's almost no option to improve this "not enough good cards" without get out the budget range... Imo looks like a podcast that talk about what cEDH players think about budget cards in general
Not really true, i think people that contrast this sort of discussion with CEDH have never actually seen CEDH play. There is a major difference between playing with an optimised 7 or 8 and a CEDH deck.
I disagree with Stonehewer Giant. When someone activates Stonehewer Giant you aren't able to respond to the equip target, because it all happens at the same time and you don't even have to target something (it attaches). So if this is killed in response to the activation, you equip it to something else after it resolves. And when no one responds, you just grab something that gives protection like a sword of something and no one can do anything about it afterwards.
@@duckstuffer2152 I think 3-6 turns is fast. 7-11 turns is average, 12 - 15 slow. Above is too slow for me unless everyone keeps gas and stuff keeps happening. Nobody wants to be topdecking with 4 players at 30 or so life after the 50th boardwipe.
They're moving with "the meta" and focusing on optimization, but if that's not your playgroups (or personal) style, then you don't need to make any of these substitutions.
@@jamesgratz4771 If you change your number from 4 to 1 since this is a singleton format, then yes. You can play a Wooded Foothills in your mono white deck. It just won't be able to fetch for anything at all, but you can do it! People do actually play, for example Wooded Foothills in a G/U deck if they want to fetch a forest or say, Breeding Pool (or trigger landfall).
It would take too long to go into specifics, but I really think you guys have assumed that your meta is all metas. Not to mention that the data you cited from that episode was flawed for many reasons, not the least of which was that it all came from games streamed by content creators. On a related note, I'm very disappointed that every piece of Commander content lately is permeated by this obsessive drive toward optimization.
Seriously. I took a break from magic for like 6 months. Coming back to this episode since I been gone. I kind of want to leave again. Its not fomo its just feels much more pay to win then ever before.
@@joeymurillo4203 I think if you want to play cEDH, then that might be true and while almost every piece of content may seek to convince you otherwise, plenty of people are still playing battlecruiser Magic with big flashy spells. Also, you picked a bad time to get back in, what with the pandemic and all.
@@vladplasmius2854 well I love with two of my play group and the 4th person is my brother in law. I think cedh is a whole different type of play still compared to what they are talking about here. If your highest is 5 cmc and or 6 is sprinkled in and talking about winning in 11 turns then well consider that to me close to cedh. Isn't necessarily any of the players fault. Its like having a car that can drive easily over 100mph we shouldn't but the companies sell that cuz they know it'll make money. People want the newest strongest coolest thing. Same for us. They know great henge will be auto include in every creature green deck. Now u have to get it if you don't and someone your playing against does good luck. Imagine you are still using harmonize and they have the auto includes must have because lower cmc and its just better. Another example I looooove minds dilation and I've played games with random people who let it stay on battlefield because they end up winning before it pays off due to the "optimize" faster decks. I love to people who want to win by turn 10 no later. This guy I met at frank and sons literary bragging can win by turn 3 and his was not cedh.
@@joeymurillo4203 Naw that aint cEDH. If you take a deck that's primed to win around turn 10 to a cEDH table you'll lose before you really get going. cEDH is more like a gunslinger duel, first to get a successful shot wins (and reliably before turn 6-7 I'd say, unless there's tons of disruption). It's fun, just a completely different ballgame. I'd like to have cEDH deck someday just because that's its own kind of fun. Quick, tense games where the fastest gun in the West sticks it for the win! Vs. a more grindey value kind of fun where you get to have fun making an engine and doing neat synergy stuff--I find your cards get to play off each other a bit more outside the cEDH power range. I agree the company is incentivized to power creep and it's not really the players fault. But the most important aspect of a healthy meta is just finding the right playgroup who wants to play the game like you do. I like power 7-8 range. Getting to play with cool strong effects and sometimes do broken stuff, but not in a way that no one else got to play the game. Combos are okay, but it's usually kind of incidental stuff and not a 2 card wincon that you beeline for to win every match and tune the deck to reliably get out by T4. But if you want to play in the 5-6 range and do more classic battlecruiser magic EDH, then that's fun too! They're all just unofficial "different formats" of commander that are near impossible to define with rules like Modern, Historic or Standard or just EDH the format. Too much wiggle room, but it's important for the players to work out among themselves where they want to sit on the scale. Some groups even like to play stupid (but fun!) janky decks way down in the 1-4 range where it's more about silly themes or going all in for one janky wombo combo type of strat. If everyone's doing it at the table, it's probably going to be pretty fun! Same can be said for any power range.
Oh shit youre right! Im only making $25,000 a year (before taxes and rent), I should have been making $125,000 year! That would improve my EDH game so much more! Thanks for the tip crew
Exactly why i watch MtG on youtube but don't own a single card. It is stupidly expensive to build a competitive deck. Also the meta being decided by content creators and not whats actually apealing to the majority of players really triggers me, its like every MtG content creator is also a LoL player -_-'
@@VRDejaVu Exactly. The only good mtg youtubers are people like Rhystic Study, any lore youtuber, or thoes who just play meme decks. Im sick of people like the command zone who would rather have an over produced tlc show or just make do with very mediocre pesonalities and random statistics they got off of EDHREC
At the beginning of the episode I thought “Hey it’s just their opinions, I’ll just listen and hear what they think.” And then they mentioned a card I play and I felt personally attacked
I've read this comment section (and many other comment section when it comes to these topics) and from what i've seen, seems most people (me included) love longer and bigger mana plays. You guys are making EDH too competitive and most of us play for fun. We love big mana spells, that's why we play. Honestly, change the title to, " Cards That Aren't Good Enough""in competitive"" Thats honestly what you're striving for at this point. You guys are falling out of touch with people. It's the truth, not sorry. Still love ya guys and the crew though. 👊🏽
I think most of the stigma against long games comes from when you stumble 1 or 2 too many times and you just end up watching your opponents play for an hour while you try to play catch up KNOWING that you are basically garaunteed to lose at that point. When those games drag on for that long, I don't think anybody really enjoys those games when it's all over. You know, the games when somebody needs to cast a wrath to keep somebody else from winning and they look over to you and say something like "sorry, but I need to do this."
I feel like it's definitely true that you need to find more ways to cheat out things those days if you want to play anything that costs more than 5. But it is true, depending on where you see edh and edh going, and where the command zone started out as, it has come quite a long way... and not necessarily in the best direction if you count yourself as a casual player- as I do. If I wanted to play competitive, I would play modern or standard.
These are only "no longer good enough" if you're playing at a near-competitive level. That being said, I'm a hyper-budget player who builds only 15$ decks, so maybe this video will make some of these cards will fall in price! :D
not really close to competitive. like they said they are talking about 7-8 power level. cedh has gotten way faster and in turn 7-8 decks are also faster.
This whole episode is basically why I hate Commander now. The format meant to play all the fun big splashy stupid spells has become the overly tuned same game every round BS that is 60 card competitive. Fun is relative for everyone, but for me Commander has lost the fun.
The format can still be fun, you just have to tune the power level appropriately with your playgroup. An 'easy' fix would be to play commander cube to be able to choose which cards are allowed. but it requires a pretty big investment so it's not always a viable choice
I think you just a new meta, honestly. I always was going up against people with fairly well tuned decks that cost hundreds or over a thousand dollars worth of lockdown/control/or other synergy. Now that I'm buying singles, it's less unfun for me since I can actually just get decent cards so that I'm not playing kitchen table vs other actually built decks.
Yeah. All this talk of "too slow". Too slow? Too slow for Commander used to be like 10 mana, maybe. Now 3 mana rocks are too slow? Nah. If they really are too slow for you, then you've strayed too far from the core of the format.
@jvalex18 No, this is a common misconception of what Commander is. Commander is not only rules, it is also an intent, a philosophy, a shared, implicit idea of what's important in a game other than determining who wins. The RC often says that this is the only format that requires a philosophy document other than a rulesbook. Not understanding this basic, basic feature of the format leads to people considering Commander "competitive", homogenization of decks, "meta" discussions, netdecking and all the rest of what's ruining it.
"Eternal formats aren't fun anymore, I much prefer commander" -Commander turns into a hypertuned format with the same cards being used ever time where the best card is your credit card just like eternal formats "Ah, well, I guess there is Runeterra"
Just join a group that sets budgets on their decks? I feel this episode is more for CEDH players than casual. Their recommends are not wrong but intended for those with deep wallets and not casual 1 hour plays.
Wizards need to keep their awful at balancing hands off commander. The format has become a little too popular for it's own good at this point. Also Short Games are for Red Players. I've never met anybody who plays commander who wants shorter games....
Yeah I feel like by printing a lot of pushed powerful cards specifically for commander, they are driving the cedh crowd. Nothing against cedh, but once it gets into your playgroup its hard to remove.
@@noxmtg7017 Just because your 4/10 battlecruiser deck can't cut it with new cards doesn't make them cedh or the decks that pound you cedh. Understand that a battlecruiser deck with no budget and the very best cards is still a 5/10
@@damo9961 haha I've been playing MTG for over a decade, my decks are easily worth over 1000$ (my og enchantress deck runs serra's sanctum) not trying to brag, but money doesn't directly correlate to a stronger deck. I specifically design my decks to be battle cruiser because I don't enjoy cedh in the slightest. My area is cedh heavy and its difficult to find a casual game. again I have no issue with cedh, I just don't want to play it.
1:15:40 alright good point, I'll take out the $5 tutor demon and include the $120 tutor and the $500 tutor! Thanks guys! I only run runescarred in Kaalia, I agree with the if you can't cheat it out it's too costly but to recommend cards that cost hundreds instead made me laugh.
Tbh even in my lgs we mulligan as many times as we want to, its just about having an okay hand and being able to play. Not searching for the best cards ... you have to trust people :)
That's what my playgroup tends to do too. We're looking for a good game, not for a hand where one person doesn't get to play because they had to mull to 4 to find a land.
The format used to be better before the power creep of the recent years. And the Command Zone used to be better before they went all power level 8+ decks.
@@jamesgratz4771 Before Commander was more about finding the Diamond in the rough from all the sets in Magic's history, or just having fun with the cards you love, or building Jank. Before 2016ish the commander product was sort of a fun shake up, but nothing really had a long term impact on the format. With the recent printings of cards specifically designed for commander, the power level and price has increased significantly with the rising popularity of the format.
I personally still really like austere command, more than cheaper board wipes. Board wipes usually don’t really do that much since people tend to not really play into them, so board wipes that make sure you’re ahead and not at parody after you play them are great imo.
Definitely agree. Austere Command is still my fave White boardwipe. I find it can be good even when you're ahead. Eliminate the 2 permanent types you care the least about to extend your lead. Maybe it's partially a meta call. I face quite a lot of artifact-centered combo decks so being able to obliterate their artifacts and small utility creatures is just fantastic.
"No, I want longer games." I want to see every deck show off what they can do at 15-25 mana. I want fight of titans. Occasionally I even want to start to run out of cards. 1 of my 3 most memorable games was one where I had to keep my deck alive at 1 card. But I want those games to be rare (1/1000?). More often I want everyone to hit 15-25 mana and "So me what you got". Let it be a clash of titans where the victor won as archenemy against 2-3 healthy opponents. Of course, I play group hug (with a win con) in order to enable these games.
I think Howling Mine is the best card in commander. One or two of those on the table and you're headed straight to one of those games you're talking about. Helps people hit land drops and do their thing. Idk. I love it. helps that Kynaios and Tiro was my first deck
In addition to those draw cards like Temple Bell, there are mana ramp/fixing spells that make sure everyone gets into the game. My top 3 would be Avatar of Growth, Collective Voyage, and Veteran Explorer.
There's an optimized Kaalia in my playgroup. It's the only deck she plays. She only plays to win and keep the battlefield clear of any hostility. I prefer titan clashing, but it just isn't POSSIBLE in my group to play for that one monstrous clash anymore 😞
@@pkphantom Consider Aluren, Tidal Barracuda, & Vernal Equinox. By upgrading everyone's creatures to instant speed, it makes it easier to maintain a board presence. Also titan clashing is not just creatures. An enchantment heavy deck, or even titanic clashes on the stack. One of my most memorable games was Alchemist Refuge vs Shimmer Myr. The final turn had a titanic clash of spells.
@22:33, Darksteel Ingot is now totally irrelevant, because you would rather include the Skyclave Relic that does exactly the same thing, except it also adds kicker where you get 2 extra copies if you kick it for 3.
This is definitely a video for the most competitive of casual play-groups. Whenever I build a new deck, I never spend more than $30 in singles on it so I better already have the optimum cards in my collection. I’d totally run a Stonehewer Giant cuz I’m not gonna go buy a Stoneforge Mystic and a bunch if Swords if I don’t already have them.
Whoops, ya got me. I just built 3 new decks (and a few minor upgrades to others and spent $100. Here I am feeling bad about spending so much, and single cards Jimmy+Josh mention are just as expensive as any single deck I made (or even all 3 combined). I like your philosophy a lot, and I'm tempted to stick to it, but I think for every $10 deck I build, I will allow myself to build a $50 deck; because some deck ideas are just too outside my current collection.
I'm trying to flip Azor's Gateway since quite some time now. I put a lot of untapers like fatestitcher and - a favourite of mine - unbender tine in the Deck to help to make it flip. Success is imminent my friends... I can feel it!
I was thinking of adding Westvale Abbey to my Krenko deck. When they said that it was hard to make tokens, my brain was like:"wait a minute, not it's not!" xD
The cEDH zone has arrived. Efficiency (and cost) over everything it would seem now. Disappointing that if it doesn't belong in a 7-8 level deck, it's not good enough.
I still run Commander's Sphere as sort of a pet card. The time always comes when all artifacts go down the drain and Sphere ramps you early and later will replace itself. Pretty useful if you ask me
This just makes me sad to think about. I know power creep is inevitable no matter what collectible game you play, but the fact that we have so many new good cards means that you basically have to run those cards or be left at a severe disadvantage, and I don't want to have to spend $400 on a deck just for it to have a chance at doing something during the game.
@@rodgerlang884 Considering that Wizards is trying to double its profits in 5 years, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reasoning. I hope it's not, but I feel a bit too jaded to just say it'll be fine.
It's just as one of the hosts of the EDHREC Cast said in their 'Power Creep' episode - "Players are now being PUNISHED for NOT playing the newest thing."
Situational, but the other thing about Chromatic Lantern is that it turns your non-producing lands (fetch, maze of ith, whatever) into mana producers. That's more of a late-game benefit when the fixing is probably already solved.
I used to run chromatic lantern in every deck, now I only run it in specific decks that are three+ colors and don't have green, decks have a lot of multicolored cards, or decks that have a lot of 2 pip cards that are integral to what I am doing.
Gets even better in Yuriko and narset. The former has a roughly 50/50 split of 0-1 cmc cards and 5+cmc cards, and narset is even more wacky usually getting 1-3 drop ramp to go into 6+mana spells over and over with her ability
Josh and Jimmy's nostalgic episode of "How we became spiky players". Now I completely agree to tuning up decks so they run smoother and I do enjoy high powered games. However, the vast majority of what is discussed in this episode is down to personal taste for how you want to play commander. Please Josh and Jimmy try to avoid going down the path of being one-dimensional in your view. I've watched you for years and in the last year you've become more spiky, hyperbolic and claiming that is the way the whole community is going. In the past you were far more open to different playstyles. I think you want to be responsible for keeping the game fun so don't push people so heavily towards low CMC, artifact-heavy, no combat damage, ramp up and explode with a value engine the others can't handle.
I agree. While arguably no one wants to spend the first 4 turns doing nothing but hitting the land drop and maybe playing a mana rock, there should be still be many viable way to play a format that can access cards from the whole history of Magic that just the optimized bunch of staples, mostly recently printed with Commander specifically in mind during the design phase. There are so many other fast and spikey MtG formats out there that I do not think EDH should mirror, otherwise the game would just lose diversity. Presenting the current WotC philosophy of "buy the latest OP cards!" as the correct way to play EDH I find misleading.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2 You: "While arguably no one wants to spend the first 4 turns doing nothing but hitting the land drop and maybe playing a mana rock" Me: "Here's my Ghidorah deck with a ton of cascade-type effects and Keruga as a companion! My first two turns don't even exist!" *girlish squeals of joy*
I mean, I run chromatic lantern in a 2-color deck so I doubt I'm in a position to critique this video by the time I end it lol. Edit: So, just finished the video and I couldn't help but chuckle. My favorite all time deck is this selesnya utility land deck because I Love Knight of the Reliquary so much. Yet I agreed with basically everything you two said, regretfully at times especially since my disdain for green's power creep through card draw is annoying. So since 2016 when I made this deck, I revamped it in 2017-early '18 and I've made like 5 swaps, 2 of which were from core 2021 (Mangara and Jolrael). I love the fact that my numbers for removal haven't changed but are the updated numbers you two suggest. Yet I still run Praetor's Council because of the graveyard utility the deck has with lands and the mana production from Selvala to keep mana up even after that. And as for chromatic lantern? I run 40 lands, 38 produce mana, 13 basics, 8 dual lands. Just a fun video to watch after checking my deck along with it
I sold all three Lanterns, partially because I ended up cutting them and also because I realized I had four 5C decks and decided to cap myself to one deck per color identity.
@@ToliG123 Honestly I am too! I just run so few color producing lands in the selesnya deck that the convenience of not caring what lands to tap for certain colors is more than that
Yeah, not sure what they were on about when they mentioned that. Unless you're a complete moron, nobody is dropping cradle unless they're about to win with it.
@@joe_h_Redwire Can't do that either, it's a mana effect which doesn't use the stack unless my brain isn't working correctly (which I'll admit is very possible). You can't Stifle Altar of Ashnod/Phyrexia and can do some weird stuff with them because they're "mana effects" or whatever. And you wont get priority anyway. They'll play the land and... then tap it. So... your instant land removal is just as good as Vindicate would have been. Also the "solution" being "just put in a Strip Mine" was uh... a thing. I have a bunch from the 90's, but that's like a $20 card. Vindicate is like $6.
I still haven't played a single game of Commander and I have watched every episode. Gratz on the 6 years, this content is always amazing. Mahalo Josh and Jimmy!
Thank you for this. I am now anticipating the prices of these cards to drop. Also, not to compare but this is the reason why I watch Commander’s Quarters more, because the Command Zone is going towards the best cards to put in a deck, irregardless of cost. Not everyone has the money to drop for the best options, because if we did, all our decks are the same. Commander for me is an expression of your creativity and resourcefulness, and sometimes you really just have to make do with what you have.
I don't even buy specific cards for commander. I LOVE digging through my collection and figuring out how to make certain cards work in a deck or noticing a theme among some cards that might make for an interesting deck. I typically sell my really expensive staples to buy more cards. Variety is the spice of life after all!
Depending on card choices, it's also really good in decks with less colors too! My Snapdax deck uses it with the Mana restrictive Aurelia, Gisela, and personal weird favorite War Elemental. Snapdax's mutate cost is also really heavy on colored mana.
I still play chromatic lantern in almost all my tripple color commander decks, just because it makes playing your stuff so much easier with the rainbow lands effect. Nothing feels worse than ramping early and then not being able to play your cards, just because you drew too many spells of the same color.
good luck blowing up a gaea's cradle with instants before they activate it. tapping a land for mana doesn't use the stack and can be done at any time, so that argument wasn't really valid. For other permanents, you're absolutely right, and I love my instants as much as the next guy, but that was a bit of misinformation.
@@wilfulbuckle13 I don't agree with that, but I do think that videos like this do harm to the diversity of the format. There are some cards you can't truly find replacements for, and proxies are great for that.
For a player like me this video seems to be the exact opposite of what I was told Commander was. Commander was supposed to be the hyper casual format that allowed you to play what you wanted and not have to drop a shiney penny just to have a viable deck. This whole power creep feels so anti Commander, Commander was set up to be against this sort of thing from it's core. At what point do we just turn Commander into another Standard where you need exorbitant amounts of disposable income to even have a good deck. I proudly keep all my decks under $500, and even that's extremely high for many people. Playing the big dumb cards was what Commander was all about. For me it was like back when I just played table top Magic. Only rule was 60 card minimum, and you either got your opponents life to 0 or you had an alternate win con. This way allowed people to build totally silly decks and still have fun. Personally I enjoy the longer, war of attrition, games more. They tend to be more memorable and have more to them. The whole quality over quantity. Was never meant to be about winning, it was about playing the game.
I honestly don't like that it's being dictated how 'Commander is doing'. I don't like where Commander is ging BECAUSE of this very edgy way of wanting to win asap. I need the dynamics and the politics, I need to play my cool cards. That's what the format is for. Wtf guys... EDHREC seems like a bad thing, too. All these stats and data somehow dictate what you should and should not play. Whatever happened to 'play the cards you like'?
@@harowlt9314 jank is not the same as your favorite cards. the format was intended to not seperate jank from what is 'playable'. The idea is to play cards you LIKE. Which now you can't because the format has inherently become almost entirely competitive. It's just not the same anymore.
@@Mightypoo007 um... it’s not even approaching competitive. I play some cEDH, and unless your games look like legacy/vintage, it’s not nearly fully comp. It has gotten faster, but honestly I feel that that’s largely due to the increasing knowledge of the player base rather than the cards.
@@tntmage7-250 Nah, people are actively dismissing a huge portion of cards and starting looking down on just decent cards. There's more combo, there's more competitive information seeping into casual.
@@Mightypoo007 If it's any consolation, I still have a Mayael deck with Force of Nature in it. It's the deck I intentionally keep around in case I run into the more 5-6 range of players.
Hey guys, great video! We feel the same way about content creators and their opinions as you. Seems like we also agree about a lot of the "outclassed" cards too!
I hope you realize, though, that the play style you espouse on this channel(go faster, ramp more, "this is a good number of removal that I use", you probably "need" such and such in every deck, instant speed or bust, big creatures getting meh, games should probably be such and such amount of turns long, you must curve out to make your deck work better and therefore more fun) is directly influencing the very trends that you're noticing. As a trusted name in the community you can't claim anymore that you're merely "noticing" the very things that you have helped and are currently helping to become trends. The call is coming from inside the house. Moreover, you play lip service to the variety of deck and play styles that are out there while at the same time homogenizing the way that the general community approaches deck building. WOTC is, of course, also to blame for this effect since they are the ones who can only make better and better cards as the years go on. So I really can't "blame" you or get angry about it, really. It's just that the gradual result of this march of progress is a marginalizing effect on the more Vorthos and Timmy players out there, players who want to tell or feel a story with their decks or love it when games go for 20 turns and they get to see many different spells and interactions. I know that you're just "suggesting" it when you say, "8 pieces of ramp, 10 pieces of removal, 7 pieces of card draw", because, yes, you're correct from an optimization stand point and playgroups can see that and will build decks accordingly; but your repeated suggestion becomes a soft "law" with time. This makes it harder and harder to argue for something different in a playgroup if everyone in that group has just sort of seem the light and gone with the trend. It's a very distant cousin to netdecking, but it has the same effect - more and more decks built with a similar philosophy in mind, that being the "general" one. And it's sad because the unintended cost is a gradual loss in deck creativity and diversity of game experiences. Just a thought from an old man who started in Mirage
I agree that this type of content is homogenizing the EDH deck building but (unpopular opinion) EDH Rec is a far greater culprit in this. It provides all players with the same cards per commander. I've noticed the negative impact in my own play group.
Just to extra clarify- Josh and I still play many of the cards we discussed today in our decks. We’re just discussing the trends of EDH we have noticed, especially when it comes to the ever growing number of 2-CMC ramp options, especially when you’re not playing Green. We generally build our decks to be a 7-8 power level and prefer games to last anywhere between 9-11 turns. Commander has gotten faster over the years, and especially as Red gets more and more damage options. At the end of the day, your playgroup will define the way the game is played most in your experience. If you want things to trend one direction or another, consider discussing with your playgroup! -jimmy
What you need to do is to make sure you mark - in each video if necessary - the importance of the right playgroup. The playgroup is what matters in almost anything and almost anything is defined by it. The budget, the power level and most important of all, the fun.
10/10 singing. Dang six years.... Do you remember the summer you guys did two a week? That's when I first started watching
Yeah, the creep is hard to avoid. I count myself among those who like a longer game, but I’ve found myself occasionally building decks that “oops, I win” on turn 7 or 8. It’s becoming hard for me to calibrate my power level.
@@tsho6131 I too enjoy longer games but I have been getting faster deck wise. Getting to that nice hour and an half sweet spot
i love you
Yes yes YES!!!! Keep saying these cards are unplayable so I can afford them
Thats what i'm saying.
They all Suck. SELL SELL SELL.. 😋 lower that price!
They will laugh with their artifacts and I will laugh with vandalblast and shenanigans in hand
Them saying Rune-scarred demon isn't good enough made me fly back in my chair. I was like "are these guys insane? It's a fucking 6/6 flying body and it's a repeatable bounce effect if you have flicker effects AND it can get double triggers with cards like Yarok. I'm incredibly against that take they threw out, far more than their other takes like using 2 drop ramp against 3 drop ramp.
@@bobby45825 of course it's good if you can absue it, they even said as much, but they were talking in general
jimmy and josh hot takes:
the $40 swords are better than the $0.99c loxodon warhammer
:O amazing insight
Better examples of more efficient equipment would be Blood-Forged Battleaxe, Basilisk Collar and Shadowspear. Also re: the costy swords, we could use a few more reasonably priced effects similar to that on Mana Barbs that punishes the untapping and retapping of lands to nerf Sword of Feast and Famine.
Power begets price. Of course the hammer costs about a toilet paper roll.
@@kid9486 oh no, they tell people to buy good cards at a sponsor site that are non budget because their content is non budget...
he meant to say Shadowspear is the replacement for loxodon warhammewr.. because it is.
Why do you think Loxodon Warhammer is 99 cents in the first place? Budget was not the point of their argument.
Who else just kept dying on the inside every time one of your favorite cards got mentioned?
I just countered with why it’s good in the specific deck it’s in
All cards are playable as long as you like to play with them, i have 8 deck built, not on lists, the average price for each of my decks is $200, i belive i have invested enough. Its a casual game, once we move from play for fun to play to win, we will lose the "soul of commander"
I understand you. I think it's a matter of the power level. If I play a focused deck I probably play some of these cards, but if the power level increase to optimized decks I personally wouldn't play any of the cards they mentioned.
Jimmy: "I don't think there's any player out there who's gonna say 'No, I want longer games'"
Stax players: "Allow us to introduce ourselves"
"Higher cmc cards are less viable"... Vorinclex still making tables flip
I, sir, enjoy me some control.
@@NoBody-ro3xj turn one miss land drop discard vorinclex. Turn 2 swamp, exile elvish spirit guide, buried alive for sheoldred, voidwinnower, razaketh. Reanimate sheoldred. Lose 7 life pass... Good clean magic.
Jimmy: I don't think there's any player who's going to say "no, I want longer games"
I'll just see myself out, then...
most everyone i know doesn't care if it's long or short.
All that really matters is if everyone has a chance instead of just being dead in the water.
More games = better, is what an old cEDH player said on the podcast and they got laughed at.
I like long games if it is because of my stay alive deck working
I like long games
You and me both. It's really arrogant to assume that everyone feels faster is better.
oh thank god thought it was only me who got annoyed by that comment
Remember back when Commander was about having fun and playing the dumb cool cards you couldn't play in faster metas?
Yeah. The power creep has been very apparent in the last few years.
Nope, I've been playing for two years and whenever I go to the lgs it's just a bunch of nerds playing consultation oracle and other retard builds.
@@wolfmayner6274 I'd find a new lgs
@@itzmagictime8824 Same. I like the goofy pod/combo decks the most if we're casting random cards that aren't viable in faster formats.
The secret is finding a playgroug that can decide a powerlevel for everybody
Command zone: "4 cmc cards aren't good enough anymore"
The year is 20XX. Everyone plays Tiny Leaders to perfection.
Tiny Leaders literally died because as soon as you cap CMC at 3, it solves the format & Ezuri & Geist of St Traft are the best commanders in the format, bar none, no exceptions. Arguably with Geist even far ahead of Ezuri.
cEDH crowd is so hard at work trying to *solve* Commmander, that their efficiency is spilling over into normal Commander. Wizards is pushing Commander because it's the only format people want to play in paper, *Huh, why am I not surprised nobody wants to play Standard or what do they call it now Historic? Decks are hundreds of dollars and subject to constant bans.* I guess people are only willing to invest to play SAFE formats where their deck won't be banned off, and their deck doesn't become illegal in 6 months.
@@JS-wk4oe i agree with you. After hearing this though. I feel a lil burned out. Fuck can't afford to enjoy the game if I can't play my enjoyable 5 6 and sometimes 7 cmc cards n just win
@@JS-wk4oe mtg arena got me back in the paper game.. then like an idiot I wanted to buy my standard deck IRL
First they banned half.. I changed that and now rotation F-ed me
Vintage is too expensive.. I am not paying 200,- for lands I sold away for 50,- ten plus years ago
Now I’m building a commander deck still spendy but 100s is a lot better than the mortgage you need to play vintage
Wizzards should just reprint dual lands etc.
value should come from rarity and age not gameplay need..
Sucks for people with revised duals but I feel they would even like it if that means they can cheaply get the other duals for all their decks.
I owned a set of Tundra but i would have no problem if they reprinted it then
Even though it's been outclassed handily by other, newer cards I still find the simplicity of Vindicate's three word description "Destroy Target Permanent" very aesthetically pleasing.
I still run it, even though it's not optimal.
And if someone grabs some really old magic cards and has a weird permanent type that no one else can target you have it covered.
Yup it kills anything. And its cheap. What more could you ask for?
Vindicate gives you options. Options are nice. Blow that Cradle up.
@@erikburzinski8248 what would that be lol
Being able to hit lands with Vindicate is still very good and very relevant - which Jimmy actually proved with his "a lot of our decks run stripmine-like effects"-argument.
I like fast games. But the games that go long are The ones I remember the most
Yeah I enjoy long games sometimes! Just please no winter orb combo
I think there's an important distinction to be made in regards to "long" games vs "slow" games. I don't mind games that go on for a while but when somebody's taking a turn that lasts 10 to 15 minutes I wanna blow up the world.
@@newflesh666 yeah definitely know how you feel
Very VERY good point.
I totally agree. I like the big swings that longer games bring.
Summary : Remember all the cards you couldn't play in other formats? WotC managed to make it where you can't play them in Commander anymore.
This makes me sad :(
Yep... it's one of the reasons why I'm losing interest with every year. What's the point of playing battle-cruiser magic, when everyone is cheating out cards or playing combo?
@@andrewhoffman1087 I mean, you can still find a playgroup or some people that likes battlecruiser, casual magic isn't dead. That being said, the format has on average become more streamlimed and powerful over the years.
@@UltimacraftedArmy I think the argument was that battle cruiser was more inherent in EDH and now you know you're the odd one out for playing it. Not so much because new strats have been discovered but that WOTC has purposefully printed cards that ruins the original spirit of the format.
@@ELFanatic I'm not going to pretend that wotc had nothing to do with powercreep in edh, they absolutely do. But I believe that players in general have leaned towards optimizing decks over time and that this is completely natural for any format.
Another title for this video could be: "Power Creep Over the Years" or "Power Creep 101"
I honestly think that this would have been a better take. I get the feeling that a lot of the community views power creep as a detriment, and celebrating it (as it seems this video does) is probably the wrong tack.
Ya know, it would be super cool to see a "in memorium" episode each year where they go over the "cards we lost" due to better printings, better effects and other stuff. I'd give it a chuckle.
I absolute abhor the power creep in mtg. This standard seems really unhealthy. Mythics get more value than ever, fair enough. But even commons get disgusting value. Black has disgustingly efficient removal, so does green as Ram Through is basically a green "destroy target creature and deal x damage to it's controller"
creatures like uro are arguably better then all the power 9 cards
"These cards have gotten worse over time."
It's more like the playgroup for the Command Zone got more tuned. There are tons of examples of "better" cards that they gave in this video that have been out for years, even longer than when they started this channel. The only difference now is that they're upshifting in power and upshifting in cost. It's pretty obvious that a cycle of Swords would be better and stronger than a less than a dollar Loxodon Warhammer. Or running OG duels or shocks and fetches and non-tapped lands are much stronger than tap lands. Or running Mana Drain instead of Counterspell is obviously better.
It doesn't take a genius to understand that the more expensive cards are better for good reason.
I would've preferred a video where they talked about older commander cards that have been outclassed by newer cards with similar text but obviously better, such as the Explosive Vegetation being outclassed minutely by Circuitous Route and then Migration Path or even Prismatic Vista and Fabled Passage as functionally stronger versions of Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds. It feels like a wasted opportunity that I'd hope they would explore in the future.
However, this video just feels like I'm being told my cards aren't as good as the obviously better non-budget counterparts. And that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
It's funny reading the first paragraph, because if you ask one group of people Command Zone's decks are way too tuned, but if you ask this other group Command Zone's decks are way too weak. Not harping on you or anything, I just find the phenomenon to be funny.
Same.
Stuff like Garruk's Uprising vs Colossal Majesty? Great example. Both uncommons, fairly easy to get and cheap.
Loxodon vs Swords? Wtf that's a $1 bulk card vs $40+ cards.
I guess even the "fun" version of Magic isn't for me.
Next year's version of this episode: "Why would anyone play with Scry Lands when you can just play Gaea's Cradle or Tropical Island?"
(And I *have* Tropical Islands, but the disconnect here was just staggering to me)
eat the rich
As someone who has recently come back to the game from a long break, I've found a very similar experience to what was discussed on the podcast. Overall the is the speed of the game is much faster. Most of my old decks were tuned to start dropping bombs around turn 6-8 but when playing my old decks against what people have today most folks I play against are already trying to close out games around turn 6-8.
I 100% agree that the old slow cards we used to play are getting pushed out as the format speeds up. Loxodon Warhammer is actually a great example. I used to run this in my mono-green deck because the deck plays big creatures and the warhammer gives a great source of lifelink plus trample to set up your beaters over the next 3-4 combats (and yes I did also have a few swords I could have run instead in the warhammer). Now because of the speed of the format, its better to use equipment that provides imitate benefit plus helps protection the swords provide.
Funny enough what I actually replaced the warhammer with was Shadowspear. An equipment that you can play and equip for 3 mana, gives lifelink and trample, plus a crazy good activated ability to help your removal stick.
I wonder if The Command Zone is experiencing the Arms Racing Phenomena, probably part of it, I'm sure if it keeps going they'll end up in Cedh.
This episode just cements the fact that I'd far rather be playing 5-6 power level than 7-8. most of the "too slow" cards I'd rather be playing than the recommended replacements
Yeah i hope people's take away from this is, oh i need to be playing better cards. Play cards you like. Play within your budget. Play with people you like to play with.
Stonehewer Giant doesn't declare a target. They have to respond to the activation before you decide what to equip to. So its better than you are giving it credit for.
Any time I've ever seen an "attach" versus equip, attach always wins, because "attach" doesn't target.
This is the comment I was looking for.
@@emrakulsmash643 Thanks
Magnetic Theft = Win, lol
I agree with their assessment throughout tor’s video except for stonehewer giant. The wording and timing on the giant more often than not will benefit the person controlling the giant, so long as the equipment package is good
They keep talking about how the game is getting faster but in reality they're just getting spikier
I was thinking this same thing.
Excellent observation.
Mmmmmmmmhhhmmmm........
Eh. To an extent. There's definitely some amount of that if you just look at their deckbuilding, but at the same time, some of their core points are absolutely correct. Even putting aside cEDH, the general improvements of cards and redundancy of certain effects have definitely allowed for faster and stronger decks. Sometimes it's not even stronger cards, but just more or cheaper copies. For example, let's think about how much stronger the green lands-based ramp package has gotten in the last few years. We've gotten:
-Another Crucible of Worlds effect in Ramunap
-Reprints of Crucible, Loam, Exploration, and Azusa that made them much more affordable. Crucible is certainly getting up there again but it spent a good deal of time below twenty dollars, which was absurd not long ago. Oracle also got a reprint but Jumpstart hasn't shifted prices much yet.
-Two more three-mana extra land cards in Wayward Swordtooth and Dryad of the Illysian Grove
-Another three-mana 'lands from top of deck' card in Radha
-Many more lands payoffs in Tatyova, Field of the Dead, Scute Swarm, and more (and another one is coming with the Commander Legends simic precon)
-More generic land tutors like Golos, Elvish Reclaimer, and Hour of Promise
-More affordable to semi-affordable fetchlands in Fabled Passage and Prismatic Vista, plus other good sacrifice lands like the Horizon lands.
-More excellent lands-matter commanders in Windgrace, Muldrotha, Golos, Tatyova, and three or four more coming in Legends.
The biggest upgrade here isn't even "hey look busted new cards". Golos and Field are certainly a bit silly, but Wayward Swordtooth is in most respects a worse Azusa, not a beter one. Honestly the biggest upshot is that while a fully built extra-lands package isn't exactly cheap, it's much, much cheaper than it used to be, and a decent bit more powerful at the same time. And since that package is cheaper to get into and people incidentally pick up some of those cards, it's gotten much more popular.
And there are lots of other examples of this. It's not exactly a huge spikey thing to push your Boros Voltron deck to Akiri or the CL boros precon commander, but those two just saying "draw a card" on them is a massive power upgrade. Boros Voltron just being a deck that isn't absolutely embarrassing to sit down at the table with is a change in the format that's unfolding right in front of our eyes and that's definitely going to speed up those decks - and given where Boros was, that isn't a bad thing.
Skyclave Relic is another great example. I've played a decent number of Darksteel Relics in my day, and that card is just an objectively better version of Darksteel. That swap is a very natural thing to make for any player, and it's not that those players are suddenly trying to get extremely spikey, it's just that there's no real reason not to make the change. And that is, some amount of the time, going to let those players get mana they wouldn't otherwise and end a game a turn or two faster. It won't happen often, but it certainly will happen, and spikiness has nothing to do with it.
It’s definitely getting faster as more good cards get printed
Tl;dr "wanna know how to improve your deck, buy the more expensive cards"
...and don't forget to support the channel by using our affiliate link!
Calling Vampiric Tutor "easier to get now" made me about unsubscribe.
Yes, that $115 card is super easy to get.
I can't say anymore without cursing like a sailor.
Heck most of the cards they mentioned aren't under $30. Just grab a Great Henge for all your decks, guys.
Grab some Expropriates. FFS.
@@ShivaX51 They even mentioned Imperial Seal. Ye, I will just add quarter of my monthly income as 1 card for 1 deck and probably not even see it in a year (if you play other decks as well). That card costs as much as people earn in a MONTH in most of the countries world wide, maybe half. Also a reason why my friends group decided on a budget limit, and you have to make cuts and choices.
When you see every card from your deck that you spent two years finishing up.
What kind of deck is it?
@@NJKoopmeiners command zone tribal
SELL SELL SELL.
I run the same type commander elfdrazi tribal
I felt this, just finished now I’m like.. do I just pick up the better things or accept my mistake
This entire episode makes me sad, its basically a "hey even commander is getting power creeped! You remember those fun board states with big silly 5-7 cmc stuff? Not any more, get that crap out of here! If it doesn't win you the game on the spot (an incidentally costs like 10-50 dollars each) then don't run it!"
also the removal of these silly "fun" cards and move to more efficient stuff just feels like the game is being homogenized
Don't worry I still got a big beefy Dragon deck
Power creep needs to not go any further, its just an unfun game after they print a 1 drop mana ramp option that fetches basics.
@@TheMystcast um it's still fun after wayfers babule being printed out
@@TheMystcast what about a 1 cmc that fetches any land and brings it untapped at instant speed?
I never could've imagined that $28 stoneforged mystic (used to be banned in modern) was better than $5 Stonehewer Giant (literally the "budget version")
Yeah they didn't even offer a new card that's been printed to offset it. Everyone over the years has known stone forge is objectively better. In that portion and the loxodon warhammer segment its laughable how they are simple saying this $$$ card is better than this $ card. Even funnier that it's related to voltron/boros, which they've always been bad at covering fairly.
They kinb of misrepresented stonehewer aswell. If the opponent asks what you are targetting with stonehewer they are passing priority on the ability. You only need to activate the ability without naming any target, if it resolves you tutor the equipment and eqiup all as part of the ability, there is no time to kill the creature before it resolves.
"I have never killed someone with Rogue's Passage." That is not my experience at all. It has definitely won me games. I will however concede the fact that it is very costly and it is not activated VERY often. Good video and good content though!
Absolutely agree, I have it in my aggro budget deck, and it's one of the cards I'm most happy to draw! Maybe doesn't always win games, but the cost is absolutely worth it when you need to pass through some dangerous blocks and have no other options... And even if not activated, it's always a great threat for the opponents to see it in play as an option
If you're not in a 3+ color deck you can afford a few utility lands that you may not activate often. Rogue's Passage is one of those that, in most decks does basically nothing, but in some decks will win a game here or there for the very low cost of a utility land slot in a 1 or 2 color deck. Not efficient tactically, but very efficient strategically if you're not pressed for colors in your landbase. You do need to be in a deck that wants to get 1 thing through to win though (so you'd already be running other stuff for this effect).
Zurgo Helmsmasher deck used Rouges Passage quite well.. when you only need to hit once its brilliant. Goblins also used Rogues Passage to get out free goblins of the warchief
@@belnoccio what do you think about war room. It costs less and help you find your wincon
Although I understand your points, I see, that this depends a lot on the playgroup. The decks in our Playgroup are definitely not as tuned as yours, oftentimes you just don't play all Talismans because you simply don't have them. I also just think that the Command zone crew creeped up from casual to optimized.
I dont think they creeped there. josh and jimmy have always said they prefer their decks to be 7-8s.
I also dont think the play group or affordability effect if a card is good enough anymore. you may sub optimal cards due to price or play group preference but that doesnt change that those cards may have once been the top of their class in the past and would have been in higher power decks and have not decreased in power
Been thinking the same thing. They kept saying missing certain things early is a death sentence and it made me think "man, am I glad my group isn't like that." Maybe it's just me trying to justify running the sub-optimal cards they've mentioned but hey, no problem if I can get away with it on our group right?
@@mark1A100 they mightve always said that but I think their perception of what a 7-8 is has changed.
@@kopakanuva566 They may just be getting better at the game over time.
I agree but at the same time they did have some valid points that don’t really get answered from the ‘tuned’ arguments. Like yeah if they said ‘tap lands aren’t good anymore just play duals’ I would understand but from this case things like ‘replace return to dust with nature’s claim’ is kind of the crux of what their argument is
Skyshroud Claim at least specifies that they're Forests, so you can grab shocks, triomes, dual lands, etc. Very helpful in my opinion
Not to mention that they enter untapped, so you can play something else or hold up mana for a removal/counter spell
Thats why I have it in my dragon deck. I have shocks and triomes
nature's lore, 2 cmc grabs one forest card
Skyshroud is better than explosive veg , migration path whatever other 4 mana grab 2. Migpath has option to cycle. The new one can be kicked to give all creatures 2 +1/+1 counters . There's another one that grabs gates. So depending what you r going for one would be a second best for your deck. But skyshroud easily best
They did mention that.
I like this video lots of good insights, however, these comparisons basically assume budget isn't a factor. Yes, your $50 sword is better than a $2 Loxodon hammer, not really a fair comparison for most people. I think if you could only compare cards within $3 in price this would be a very different video. That's probably commanders quarters content though.
How can you have fun building and playing decks, when you limit youself with budget? Just play cards you like. I understand that some people (me included) can't afford some RL cards with ridiculous price tags, but everybody can afford $50 card.
@@yawgmoththeineffable8660 this is sarcasm right?
@@victorbourquin5651 No, why it should be?
@@yawgmoththeineffable8660 Because tons of people can't justify dropping $50 on a single card.
@@ryankelly1246 Yeah, I understand that. I'm just saying that they can afford it, but not everybody wants to pay $50 for piece of cardboard and will rather spend that money on something more useful or some other hobby. I'm high school student, so I know that money doesn't grow on trees ;)
This doesn't sound like a casual format of Magic.
I like when a game goes a bit long, its when a single turn eats thirty minutes that I start to lose patience
Yep! Don't care if it's turn 5 or turn 50, if you are eating a ton of time on your turn, I start twitching my eyeball. I do it accidentally from time to time because I don't realize I did it, but then I try and find a way to stop spinning my wheels and do something with it after the game ends, to make the next time better.
Yes, that is something that needs to be brought up. I also have a problem with people who overplay their board to the point that they have a million triggers, draw a thousand cards and do nothing. Next turn, someone wipes it all away after that person spent 15 minutes trying to decide what to do with all the things they have.
It bothers me more when they pass the turn after taking so long. If you’re playing your turn for 30 minutes you better win or lose by the end of it. If you can’t then there is probably something wrong with how you built your deck.
@@jonathonleclare9268 Same. I tend to take long turns on some of my decks myself because I love playing decks that aren't too straightforward in playstyle and I start going apologetic once I feel like I've been thinking for a while. At a certain point I just go "I'd probably fuck this up but lets get it going anyway."
@@jakeapplegate6642 agreed
"London mulligan is best mulligan."
-Grenzo, Dungeon Warden players
MFW... 😮
My playgroup sadly still makes us all shuffle if I end up playing Grenzo. :(
AMEN
Just a straight buff that I will never stop singing praise to.
@@realphantomplays4098
After mulligans? That's not how the London mulligan works.
So basically, why would you play an affordable 50cent version of a card, when there is a slightly or decently better premium for 15 bucks? "Loxodon Warhammer?, oh please, get Sword of Fire and Ice instead."
"Harmonize?, don't you have the Great Henge?"
What about not submitting to the power creep as it happens, keep building decks that are on theme and fun, even if they are not as close to competitive as possible, and play Magic without draining you bank account every other month.
The "second best" version of a card costs often a fraction of the premium, and they still do near the freakin same. And the imbalance in power can easily be balanced by diplomacy and politics in this wonderful, social, multiplayer game.
I am seriously so grateful for Mitch and the Professor to promote and celebrate the exact opposite of what you do here, and watch Commander VS games with thematic decks without every card being the strongest option in its place.
There are many times when I watch something like Commander VS(Starcity Games) or Commander Clash(MTG Goldfish), see a super cool budget card, and think "I need this in all my decks now." Not evvery card needs to me 10 dollars. Sometimes I just wanna cast my Quiet Speculation and get Unburial Rites to reanimate my Shadowborn Demon and kill your commander.
@@jaygiemtg7511 NGL, I've had that experience. Imp's mischief made me cackle uncontrollably. All the white counterspells do. Anything that breaks the color wheel is just lovely.
I realize this channel doesn’t often take budget into account for the content, but I think this topic in particular is hard to separate from that. It’s hard to listen to 90 minutes of how much all these cards are just not good anymore when often times a lot of them are played because the better counterparts are still very expensive. The great henge is $25. Craterhoof just got reprinted and it’s still 40 bucks. Rune Scarred Demon might not be efficient, but vampiric tutor is $100. Idk that that’s “easier to get”. Stonehewer works better than it was explained, but regardless it costs $2 vs stoneforge’s $20. Loxodon is a buck, the swords are a small fortune.
Some suggestions I was totally good with. But I think a lot of the “why is this card still played?” questions for others comes down to cost for many.
and now its 50$
This video almost feels to directly contrast the Professor's new Judge of Jank video.
The Professor still remembers what it's like to have fun and is actually sad about the game right now, this channel is mostly a tinfoil hat echo chamber, but this time they are spot on, power creep is insane...
@@SifSehwan Ofc there is power creep, no question. But from that to saying that we should not play specific cards because they are considered sub-optimal there is a huge gap that makes me really question their preferences in what "fun" means.
@jvalex18 that is True. And i like my lowpowered Non Combo bc Decks. I couldnt agree more with what they say about some stuff here
@jvalex18 those games actually feel diverse considering how many combo decks are out there where you durdle until someone gets those X specific cards they need and win on the spot
@jvalex18 Winning through combo every time is still the most boring win ever imo. Every time someone wins with a combo in our playgroup, everyone is like "Well, that was anticlimactic". Also, most of the combo decks aren't even creative, they just use two cards combos that win out of nowhere no matter what happened prior to that. I even remember one game where I went to grab something to drink while there wasn't anything on the board. By the time I came back, the game was over because someone went infinite ... fuuuun. The only combos I care about are the ones involving 4+ cards where you actually have to think and work for it, just like other decks at the table.
As a slight PSA, playing 2-card combos is just basically exploiting the format and your 40 life total without caring about the experience people are usually looking for in Commander. This is not Modern or Legacy, there is no prizing on the line. The fun matters, what your opponents want to play matters. Do you want to play your deck and see what it can do? So do your opponents, and getting cheap wins by suddenly comboing off Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity or Mike + Trike or whatever just usually isn't fun for anyone else at the table. Now that doesn't mean you can't play combo if everybody in your meta is up for it. Everyone's notion of fun differs after all, but those metas are definitely rarer. If you want to play combo, the least etiquette you can have is to at least talk about it with other players at the table before starting to play. Don't think only about yourself, this is a SOCIAL format.
All the cards you say aren’t good enough are also budget options. Interesting.
These guys have original duals in their decks, what did you expect lol
Cuz everyone is playing the betrer versions
That is factually not true. Command the dreadhorde is cheaper then rise of the dark realms. They recommended against the likes of coalition relic and gilded lotus in place of signets and talismans (half the talisman cycle is money I'll give you that.) .
They literally said at the beginning of this video "This is for the sake of optimization."
You get what you pay for
"You can just play Imperial Seal and Vampiric Tutor."
Do you guys think the majority of players can afford those kinds of cards? I think your views may be getting a bit skewed by the playgroups you're often a part of. I spend more on MTG than most of the people in the irl playgroups that I've seen, and I own *zero* Imperial Seals and *zero* Vampiric Tutors. I own a couple ABUR duals and a few other expensive reserved list cards, but this stuff is just so damn expensive, you guys. I would be really interested in seeing a statistics episode on player budget amongst other things. Maybe you could cover most popular deck strategies, pet cards, just other general information specific to players instead of the game?
Edit: Same exact thing with the Swords vs. Loxodon Warhammer. It's a common budget option, so few people are able to afford these expensive cards, and this show only exasperates the issue, as I'm sure you know.
I think you are completely correct about their views being skewed by their confirmation bias, do you think that an episode on player budget would also be skewed by they type of people who watch the Command Zone?
@@TobiasBroad That's a very good point, you're probably right. At that point I think it would be a question of how valuable is the data they could get by questioning their demographic specifically.
proxy ftw!
I've almost stopped watching these guys. They are so bloody out of touch. "We play mostly 6s and 7s!" as they describe decks which are a 9 or 10 at most LGSs and frequently play decks on Game Knights with 4-figure costs, duals, and multiple foil fetch lands.
I'm almost at the point where I'm ready to say "Josh... You ARE the problem with the format. You have pushed it in entirely the wrong direction.".
@@icedreamer9629 on watching last months Game Knights I had the exact same thought as Josh cracked an “off” colour fetch to go and find an original dual. I’m genuinely happy to not be the only one who thinks this.
I couldn't disagree more with chromatic lantern. It's amazing mana fixing and definitely worth it over 2 cmc mana rocks in 3 color decks or more.
I love longer games. Gives everyone time to get out their heavy hitters.
Yes! You get to see some awesome plays too
Sometimes the contrary happens where the screwed player just stays unable to play the game tho which kinda sucks
I love long, fast paced games, I don't like "turn 4, does it resolve? I win!"
Also more conversations and interaction through the game
Its the extremes that i dont like. Turn 3-5 wins and games that go on forever
"higher cmc cards are less viable now"
Have you seen the shit that green players get away with? And don't get me started with the simic ones lol
Calling all kruphix players
Yes, everyone stop paying attention to my RGW dinosaur deck...nothing to see here...
Also decks that cheat stuff out like golos or decks that want big CMC cards like yuriko
@@4winged0celo7 hi I play kruphix in my amir soul of elements
I play kruphix as card draw lmao
This episode is like the complete opposite of command quarters, Mitch- "This cards expensive play this instead" CZ- "This card is slow play this instead"
There are plenty of cheap and efficient cards that satisfy both conditions though...
@@Hitzel eh yes and no. Yes Tragic Slip exists, but you can't deny that some of their favourites (that were mentioned in this episode) like guardian project, great henge and assassin's trophy are far from budget.
It's a trade off, they're cheaper because they aren't as good. Ultimately it's up to you to decide between MTG power and real world money. Alternatively, proxies.
This video is someone spitting on the ground in front of you. Mitch's was like someone spitting in your face
@@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow ????
Chromatic Lantern lets your fetchlands, even evolving wilds tap for a mana.
Yeah chromatic lantern is def better than they give credit for
And my Tabernacle & Bazaar of Baghdad can tap for mana!
Not to mention it is an answer to Blood Moon that can slot into any deck, which is funny that this is one of the first episodes in a long time that Josh didn't bring up his hatred for Blood Moon... but said he took the lantern out of all his decks! I personally think it is worth running in all 4 and 5 color decks.
Literally the only card I have slotted into almost every deck I have
Don't forget it allows lands with abilities only and no mana ability to tap for mana e.g. maze of ith, dark depths
I'm one of those people who doesn't mind longer games.
Same, as long as it's not long because the game grinds to a halt. Off topic but I feel like I've come to a point where if things start slowing down, I just come to terms with taking the L and just force people to do something even if it gets me killed.
Me too. Fast games are meant for cEDH and arena. 10-12 turns is not fun. Hitting close to 20 turns is more engaging. Which is what paper magic is for.
@@hybridyd1305 Man, 20 turn games being the norm would make me miserable and I'd probably quit playing magic. I can only take a long game every few play sessions. It's like playing 99 stocks on Hyrule Temple in Smash ─ it's fun when we do it, but I am so burnt out on Smash by the time it's over that I will refuse to touch a gamecube controller for at least a day afterward. I wouldn't be able to mentally handle the burnout and fatigue if that become every magic night...
I agree on a 20 turn long game being fun. As long as its not because of land destruction
To me, shorter games often feel cheap, like, someone just got a great start, nobody else did and the game ends with none of us feeling like we had a game.
I feel like this video isn't taking into consideration the budget of cards. A lot of the cards that "aren't good enough anymore" are still WAY more affordable than the ones they're recommending instead, and that's why they're still played.
Exactly, I mean are they really so out of touch that they don't realize that price is a major consideration for the average player? Not everyone has $500+ to spend on a commander deck.
@@pikapika4208 "That $1 card everyone is using? TRASH, you need to use this $50 card instead!!!"
This doesn't apply to all, or most even.
Everyone can pick up a Garruk's Uprising or a Migration Path. Only the removal really has this issue.
@@artyfowl444 Exactly. There are even plenty of recent budget staples that are still used in full power decks like Oakhame Adversary and Mystical Dispute. They didn't mention those though.
@@Alikaoz And the lands, and the Swords, and the wincons like Craterhoof. It's applicable to a ton of the cards they talked about.
Some people have already pointed this out, but you should include the cost of the card when deciding good or bad cards. We all know that 40$-100$ cards are better than the 1$-5$ counterparts, but if the difference between them is 1 mana or instant speed, it is probably well worth it. Take into consideration that not everyone can make 500$+ decks. Perhaps you could have consulted Mitch here. Bacause this is important to consider when building decks.
(Going to do a wilde guess here)
I think this is due to your playgroup being filled with people with some sort of important relation to the magic community and thus more likely to have more expensive cards, either from easier access or due to this being their job and thus worth investing that much money. But thinking outside a group like this, it becomes more obvious how every game knights people are always amazed how you guys drop 100$+ bombs without reacting (at least price wise)
"Why play Rune-Scarred Demon when you could play Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor?"
Well why didn't I think of that, lemme shill out the money to buy those
Tbf Vampiric Tutor is at least relatively affordable at $70. Imperial Seal is strictly inferior and sits at $600 iirc
@@souradeepgoswami4654 oh shit you right it's just $70. It's not like I could buy half a deck with that amount or anything.
Yeah I would say Sidisi is a better comparison. Especially in a creature deck where you may want to recur the tutor creatures.
I love long, crazy, kooky games. Thats what drew me into Commander in the first place. I find the most fun in playing decks in the lower power side.
Wait you don't like when everyone plays the same cards and combos?
You Should get Manson on to talk about his polymorph deck, it was so cool and I'd love to hear where he got the idea from and options for building the deck. I really want to do a polymorph brew now.
I just built the deck a few days before they used it and I was like "Hey, thats me deck!". I was using Zedruu as the commander for the card draw, but Kykar is a lot better, I just didn't have one with me
Inspired by Manson's deck, I started building a polymorph Xyris deck. Swapping W for G felt right XD
Michael Falkenrath ohhh Xyris that’s a good idea, having green would save me from having to buy another smothering tithe and artifact ramp package :)
The build is on edhrec I believe. I built the exact same deck and it's alot of fun ( the first time you play it) once your playgroup knows what it does you start becoming the target or they kill kykar right away but still fun
I build a polymorph deck based on Illuna 1 month ago and now is just my favorite deck
"our play groups power level has increased as we have all bought into newer higher power level cards so we have decided that this is how commander is played these days. toss everything that raises your manacurve above 2,5"
there, saved you 90 minutes of your time :)
i mean, everything in the video was objectiv truth. These cards are better, plain and simple. Does that mean your table has to devolve into vintage-lite? hell no
Sums it up perfectly
Yup. It’s kind of insufferable at this point. This and the entire letter to the Rules Committee was pretty much just them complaining that their playgroup has delved into pseudo cEDH
@@abnormallynormal8823 well, that part isn't totally wrong. It's a phenomenon among many groups
Moral of the story: Just stop being broke and budget
Seriously huh. Budget is no longer relative. Dying breed.
Ah, if only my budget allowed me to listen to you...
Bro just proxy lol, commander is way more fun when its free lol
lmbo
@@anguishedcarpet I mean at that point, just get your buddies to use Untap.in or Cockatrice to play for free. At least when you buy the cardboard, you can re-sell it later for some real money. I think part of the fun is when you have people playing kitchen table magic with random cards from their collection if you're going low power.
@@johnbuscher a lot of my buddies dont have a computer and prefer physical cards even if they're proxies. Like 99% of our cards are real, i guess free wasnt the best descriptor to use. I personally use the fuck out of xmage though lol
@@anguishedcarpet depends on your play group and LGS. The people I play with are really only good with proxying cards we own. I’ve been playing with them for more than a decade so I’m not just trying to find a new group
Big fan of longer games here. For me, that's one of the major appeals of Commander over competitive formats. I'm looking for the "King of the Hill" aspect, the multiple huge swings in each game, the long-game planning, and using mental fortitude to push through after others would get bored. If I want fast beatdowns, I'll play literally any other Magic format.
Which is great, but as they explained, your meta needs to allow that, otherwise you will always be overtaken by faster strategies and cards. So what do you and your playgroup do to keep playing longer games? Do you ban certain cards or strategies?
fortunately, my close playgroup feels the same and is good at self-policing. I find myself jumping into unknown pods at the LGS less and less though.
Great that your playgroup enables you to play the way you prefer!
False dichotomy detected.
there's almost no option to improve this "not enough good cards" without get out the budget range... Imo looks like a podcast that talk about what cEDH players think about budget cards in general
THANK YOU!
Play with proxies and don't apologize if someone says you shouldn't run them
Not really true, i think people that contrast this sort of discussion with CEDH have never actually seen CEDH play. There is a major difference between playing with an optimised 7 or 8 and a CEDH deck.
@@uphillwalrus5164 well Hello there. You know that some people prefere to play with lower powered Deck?
@jvalex18 What DQ? It's a casual formal.
I disagree with Stonehewer Giant. When someone activates Stonehewer Giant you aren't able to respond to the equip target, because it all happens at the same time and you don't even have to target something (it attaches). So if this is killed in response to the activation, you equip it to something else after it resolves. And when no one responds, you just grab something that gives protection like a sword of something and no one can do anything about it afterwards.
Starts at 5:07,
Doing God's work. I appreciate it!
comment to get this higher up for everyone
Thank you!
yeah, 5 minutes of adds ...
ty
This is depressing to me. I like slower games. :(
me too, nothing more fun then to see everyone combo off trying to stop it and then the next person and then the next.
What is your definition of a slower game?
@@duckstuffer2152 I think 3-6 turns is fast. 7-11 turns is average, 12 - 15 slow. Above is too slow for me unless everyone keeps gas and stuff keeps happening. Nobody wants to be topdecking with 4 players at 30 or so life after the 50th boardwipe.
Those numbers sound about right. Games that end up lasting over an hour and a half just make me want to pull my hair out lol
They're moving with "the meta" and focusing on optimization, but if that's not your playgroups (or personal) style, then you don't need to make any of these substitutions.
Card: Becomes "useless"
Jank Players: We smell pennies!
bro just put fetchlands and shocklands into every single of your decks lmao
haha what are you doing? Why play windfall when you could play timetwister? I bet you feel really stupid right now lol
Can you only put four shock and 4 fetch of each kind since they aren’t basic ? (So like you can have 4 polluted deltas)
@@jamesgratz4771 If you change your number from 4 to 1 since this is a singleton format, then yes. You can play a Wooded Foothills in your mono white deck. It just won't be able to fetch for anything at all, but you can do it!
People do actually play, for example Wooded Foothills in a G/U deck if they want to fetch a forest or say, Breeding Pool (or trigger landfall).
Now I understand why you didn't go against the TWD Secret Lair, you play EDH$$$
I don’t count chromatic lantern as ramp, when I play it I do so for mana fixing. The tapping for 1 mana is just a plus side.
It would take too long to go into specifics, but I really think you guys have assumed that your meta is all metas. Not to mention that the data you cited from that episode was flawed for many reasons, not the least of which was that it all came from games streamed by content creators.
On a related note, I'm very disappointed that every piece of Commander content lately is permeated by this obsessive drive toward optimization.
Seriously. I took a break from magic for like 6 months. Coming back to this episode since I been gone. I kind of want to leave again. Its not fomo its just feels much more pay to win then ever before.
@@joeymurillo4203 I think if you want to play cEDH, then that might be true and while almost every piece of content may seek to convince you otherwise, plenty of people are still playing battlecruiser Magic with big flashy spells. Also, you picked a bad time to get back in, what with the pandemic and all.
@@vladplasmius2854 well I love with two of my play group and the 4th person is my brother in law. I think cedh is a whole different type of play still compared to what they are talking about here. If your highest is 5 cmc and or 6 is sprinkled in and talking about winning in 11 turns then well consider that to me close to cedh. Isn't necessarily any of the players fault. Its like having a car that can drive easily over 100mph we shouldn't but the companies sell that cuz they know it'll make money. People want the newest strongest coolest thing. Same for us. They know great henge will be auto include in every creature green deck. Now u have to get it if you don't and someone your playing against does good luck. Imagine you are still using harmonize and they have the auto includes must have because lower cmc and its just better. Another example I looooove minds dilation and I've played games with random people who let it stay on battlefield because they end up winning before it pays off due to the "optimize" faster decks. I love to people who want to win by turn 10 no later. This guy I met at frank and sons literary bragging can win by turn 3 and his was not cedh.
@@vladplasmius2854 sorry didn't realize how long I ranted for apologies. Don't have to read it lol
@@joeymurillo4203 Naw that aint cEDH. If you take a deck that's primed to win around turn 10 to a cEDH table you'll lose before you really get going. cEDH is more like a gunslinger duel, first to get a successful shot wins (and reliably before turn 6-7 I'd say, unless there's tons of disruption). It's fun, just a completely different ballgame. I'd like to have cEDH deck someday just because that's its own kind of fun. Quick, tense games where the fastest gun in the West sticks it for the win! Vs. a more grindey value kind of fun where you get to have fun making an engine and doing neat synergy stuff--I find your cards get to play off each other a bit more outside the cEDH power range.
I agree the company is incentivized to power creep and it's not really the players fault. But the most important aspect of a healthy meta is just finding the right playgroup who wants to play the game like you do. I like power 7-8 range. Getting to play with cool strong effects and sometimes do broken stuff, but not in a way that no one else got to play the game. Combos are okay, but it's usually kind of incidental stuff and not a 2 card wincon that you beeline for to win every match and tune the deck to reliably get out by T4.
But if you want to play in the 5-6 range and do more classic battlecruiser magic EDH, then that's fun too! They're all just unofficial "different formats" of commander that are near impossible to define with rules like Modern, Historic or Standard or just EDH the format. Too much wiggle room, but it's important for the players to work out among themselves where they want to sit on the scale. Some groups even like to play stupid (but fun!) janky decks way down in the 1-4 range where it's more about silly themes or going all in for one janky wombo combo type of strat. If everyone's doing it at the table, it's probably going to be pretty fun! Same can be said for any power range.
Oh shit youre right! Im only making $25,000 a year (before taxes and rent), I should have been making $125,000 year! That would improve my EDH game so much more! Thanks for the tip crew
Exactly why i watch MtG on youtube but don't own a single card. It is stupidly expensive to build a competitive deck. Also the meta being decided by content creators and not whats actually apealing to the majority of players really triggers me, its like every MtG content creator is also a LoL player -_-'
@@VRDejaVu Exactly. The only good mtg youtubers are people like Rhystic Study, any lore youtuber, or thoes who just play meme decks. Im sick of people like the command zone who would rather have an over produced tlc show or just make do with very mediocre pesonalities and random statistics they got off of EDHREC
*Hitting play waiting to see my whole decks*
now imagine seeing all cards that u are waiting to get cheaper so u can finally buy lol
I will keep playing my Gilded Lotus in my Breya deck, and you can take it from my cold, dead hands, thank you very much!
Good job!
No one is stopping you. Just a waste of a card slot. May as well play sen triplets
@@Tuturial464 it’s not an unplayable, geez.
@@Tuturial464 if only you saw what jank I have in my Ayula list XD
@@Tuturial464 You only play Tymna/Thrasios I assume because everything else is a waste of potential too?
At the beginning of the episode I thought “Hey it’s just their opinions, I’ll just listen and hear what they think.”
And then they mentioned a card I play and I felt personally attacked
Yeah 80% of the cards they mentioned I still play.
@@bradleyhoward9638 Is it just me or is Return to Dust still a pretty damn good card?
@@leemiller6977 - Not really. Sometimes the exile matters but most of the time I’m just happy to wait for Austere Command or Heliod’s Intervention.
Me when they mentioned omniscience :/
@@leemiller6977 run crush contraband instead
I've read this comment section (and many other comment section when it comes to these topics) and from what i've seen, seems most people (me included) love longer and bigger mana plays. You guys are making EDH too competitive and most of us play for fun. We love big mana spells, that's why we play. Honestly, change the title to, " Cards That Aren't Good Enough""in competitive"" Thats honestly what you're striving for at this point. You guys are falling out of touch with people. It's the truth, not sorry.
Still love ya guys and the crew though. 👊🏽
I think most of the stigma against long games comes from when you stumble 1 or 2 too many times and you just end up watching your opponents play for an hour while you try to play catch up KNOWING that you are basically garaunteed to lose at that point. When those games drag on for that long, I don't think anybody really enjoys those games when it's all over. You know, the games when somebody needs to cast a wrath to keep somebody else from winning and they look over to you and say something like "sorry, but I need to do this."
I feel like it's definitely true that you need to find more ways to cheat out things those days if you want to play anything that costs more than 5. But it is true, depending on where you see edh and edh going, and where the command zone started out as, it has come quite a long way... and not necessarily in the best direction if you count yourself as a casual player- as I do. If I wanted to play competitive, I would play modern or standard.
These are only "no longer good enough" if you're playing at a near-competitive level.
That being said, I'm a hyper-budget player who builds only 15$ decks, so maybe this video will make some of these cards will fall in price! :D
Amen to that!!!
@Ramon Lopez or he just has good priorities, or enjoys the deckbuilding challenge. What a cunty thing to assume and say
@Ramon Lopez I do it for the challenge personally also it lets me learn how to build a cheap but functional deck for new players
not really close to competitive. like they said they are talking about 7-8 power level. cedh has gotten way faster and in turn 7-8 decks are also faster.
the Despark tip was good... I'm already making the change in my decks
This whole episode is basically why I hate Commander now. The format meant to play all the fun big splashy stupid spells has become the overly tuned same game every round BS that is 60 card competitive. Fun is relative for everyone, but for me Commander has lost the fun.
I think the key is finding a playgroup that agrees to the same power level/budget.
The format can still be fun, you just have to tune the power level appropriately with your playgroup. An 'easy' fix would be to play commander cube to be able to choose which cards are allowed. but it requires a pretty big investment so it's not always a viable choice
I think you just a new meta, honestly. I always was going up against people with fairly well tuned decks that cost hundreds or over a thousand dollars worth of lockdown/control/or other synergy. Now that I'm buying singles, it's less unfun for me since I can actually just get decent cards so that I'm not playing kitchen table vs other actually built decks.
Yeah. All this talk of "too slow". Too slow? Too slow for Commander used to be like 10 mana, maybe. Now 3 mana rocks are too slow? Nah. If they really are too slow for you, then you've strayed too far from the core of the format.
@jvalex18 No, this is a common misconception of what Commander is. Commander is not only rules, it is also an intent, a philosophy, a shared, implicit idea of what's important in a game other than determining who wins. The RC often says that this is the only format that requires a philosophy document other than a rulesbook. Not understanding this basic, basic feature of the format leads to people considering Commander "competitive", homogenization of decks, "meta" discussions, netdecking and all the rest of what's ruining it.
"Eternal formats aren't fun anymore, I much prefer commander"
-Commander turns into a hypertuned format with the same cards being used ever time where the best card is your credit card just like eternal formats
"Ah, well, I guess there is Runeterra"
Same opinion , dont understand the need of winning at turn 3 by playing absurd cards that aint fun, just disgned to win
Just join a group that sets budgets on their decks?
I feel this episode is more for CEDH players than casual.
Their recommends are not wrong but intended for those with deep wallets and not casual 1 hour plays.
My playgroup and I must live in a different dimension from these two
Wizards need to keep their awful at balancing hands off commander. The format has become a little too popular for it's own good at this point.
Also Short Games are for Red Players. I've never met anybody who plays commander who wants shorter games....
Yeah I feel like by printing a lot of pushed powerful cards specifically for commander, they are driving the cedh crowd. Nothing against cedh, but once it gets into your playgroup its hard to remove.
@@noxmtg7017 Just because your 4/10 battlecruiser deck can't cut it with new cards doesn't make them cedh or the decks that pound you cedh. Understand that a battlecruiser deck with no budget and the very best cards is still a 5/10
@@damo9961 haha I've been playing MTG for over a decade, my decks are easily worth over 1000$ (my og enchantress deck runs serra's sanctum) not trying to brag, but money doesn't directly correlate to a stronger deck. I specifically design my decks to be battle cruiser because I don't enjoy cedh in the slightest. My area is cedh heavy and its difficult to find a casual game. again I have no issue with cedh, I just don't want to play it.
Have you done an updated EDH Deck Template? It seems like your outlook on this has changed a decent amount.
Oh Yes! The "Stop being poor" episode. My favorite.
1:15:40 alright good point, I'll take out the $5 tutor demon and include the $120 tutor and the $500 tutor! Thanks guys!
I only run runescarred in Kaalia, I agree with the if you can't cheat it out it's too costly but to recommend cards that cost hundreds instead made me laugh.
To be fair, there is stuff like Diabolic intent or just DT...
My take away is that TCZ is getting more competitive, feels the need to be faster, and is dropping the more expensive cards. Kinda sad.
Or they are still just playing the average decks. Its just that the average decks are getting stronger.
Tbh even in my lgs we mulligan as many times as we want to, its just about having an okay hand and being able to play. Not searching for the best cards ... you have to trust people :)
Yah I do agree with this. If a game of commander goes meh because a person just drew bad it sucks for everyone.
That's what my playgroup tends to do too. We're looking for a good game, not for a hand where one person doesn't get to play because they had to mull to 4 to find a land.
Where I play it's a bad idea, as there are those who take advantage of that.
Sadly I cannot do that in my play group. It would not turn out well.
Yea. My buds and I mulligan until we are all ready. Only fair.
‘Commanders have gotten a lot more powerful now’
Me: Laughs in Yargle
mostly because commanders are designed to be commanders now?
@@goncaloferreira6429 Yeah but .................................. YARGLE
@@bm81955 still, i run kaervek the merciless so.... :)
@@goncaloferreira6429 Man, you have balls of steel
@@bm81955 i do. yet i cry a lot while playing comander. i wonder why :)
The format used to be better before the power creep of the recent years.
And the Command Zone used to be better before they went all power level 8+ decks.
How so? (New to commander)
@@jamesgratz4771 Before Commander was more about finding the Diamond in the rough from all the sets in Magic's history, or just having fun with the cards you love, or building Jank. Before 2016ish the commander product was sort of a fun shake up, but nothing really had a long term impact on the format. With the recent printings of cards specifically designed for commander, the power level and price has increased significantly with the rising popularity of the format.
I personally still really like austere command, more than cheaper board wipes. Board wipes usually don’t really do that much since people tend to not really play into them, so board wipes that make sure you’re ahead and not at parody after you play them are great imo.
Definitely agree. Austere Command is still my fave White boardwipe. I find it can be good even when you're ahead. Eliminate the 2 permanent types you care the least about to extend your lead. Maybe it's partially a meta call. I face quite a lot of artifact-centered combo decks so being able to obliterate their artifacts and small utility creatures is just fantastic.
I still play Rout on occasion...
"No, I want longer games." I want to see every deck show off what they can do at 15-25 mana. I want fight of titans. Occasionally I even want to start to run out of cards. 1 of my 3 most memorable games was one where I had to keep my deck alive at 1 card. But I want those games to be rare (1/1000?). More often I want everyone to hit 15-25 mana and "So me what you got". Let it be a clash of titans where the victor won as archenemy against 2-3 healthy opponents.
Of course, I play group hug (with a win con) in order to enable these games.
I think Howling Mine is the best card in commander. One or two of those on the table and you're headed straight to one of those games you're talking about. Helps people hit land drops and do their thing. Idk. I love it. helps that Kynaios and Tiro was my first deck
I run howling mine, dictate of kruphix and a couple other similar cards and everyone draws like 4 cards at the beginning of their turns. So great :'D
In addition to those draw cards like Temple Bell, there are mana ramp/fixing spells that make sure everyone gets into the game. My top 3 would be Avatar of Growth, Collective Voyage, and Veteran Explorer.
There's an optimized Kaalia in my playgroup. It's the only deck she plays. She only plays to win and keep the battlefield clear of any hostility. I prefer titan clashing, but it just isn't POSSIBLE in my group to play for that one monstrous clash anymore 😞
@@pkphantom Consider Aluren, Tidal Barracuda,
& Vernal Equinox. By upgrading everyone's creatures to instant speed, it makes it easier to maintain a board presence.
Also titan clashing is not just creatures. An enchantment heavy deck, or even titanic clashes on the stack. One of my most memorable games was Alchemist Refuge vs Shimmer Myr. The final turn had a titanic clash of spells.
@22:33, Darksteel Ingot is now totally irrelevant, because you would rather include the Skyclave Relic that does exactly the same thing, except it also adds kicker where you get 2 extra copies if you kick it for 3.
This is definitely a video for the most competitive of casual play-groups. Whenever I build a new deck, I never spend more than $30 in singles on it so I better already have the optimum cards in my collection. I’d totally run a Stonehewer Giant cuz I’m not gonna go buy a Stoneforge Mystic and a bunch if Swords if I don’t already have them.
Whoops, ya got me. I just built 3 new decks (and a few minor upgrades to others and spent $100. Here I am feeling bad about spending so much, and single cards Jimmy+Josh mention are just as expensive as any single deck I made (or even all 3 combined).
I like your philosophy a lot, and I'm tempted to stick to it, but I think for every $10 deck I build, I will allow myself to build a $50 deck; because some deck ideas are just too outside my current collection.
Successfully transforming Westvale Abbey is still on my mtg bucket list
I've done it. It's as fun as it sounds.
I'm trying to flip Azor's Gateway since quite some time now. I put a lot of untapers like fatestitcher and - a favourite of mine - unbender tine in the Deck to help to make it flip. Success is imminent my friends... I can feel it!
I was thinking of adding Westvale Abbey to my Krenko deck. When they said that it was hard to make tokens, my brain was like:"wait a minute, not it's not!" xD
Then Ormendal eats a Path or Swords. Not worth it usually. The cleric swarm is usually better in my experience.
@@williamzhang153 That would be illegal unless your playgroup allows, since Westvale Abbey has a black creature for the other side of it.
The cEDH zone has arrived. Efficiency (and cost) over everything it would seem now. Disappointing that if it doesn't belong in a 7-8 level deck, it's not good enough.
cEDH is a 10. If you run Chromatic Lantern then you're probably a 5/10 at best. Cedh decks win turn 2-4.
I still run Commander's Sphere as sort of a pet card. The time always comes when all artifacts go down the drain and Sphere ramps you early and later will replace itself. Pretty useful if you ask me
This just makes me sad to think about. I know power creep is inevitable no matter what collectible game you play, but the fact that we have so many new good cards means that you basically have to run those cards or be left at a severe disadvantage, and I don't want to have to spend $400 on a deck just for it to have a chance at doing something during the game.
This is how you make an eternal format play like standard so people spend money like standard
My deck makes everyone switch board states on turn 5-7 run a fast deck and suddenly u lose to your own deck no need for there replacements.
@@rodgerlang884 Considering that Wizards is trying to double its profits in 5 years, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reasoning. I hope it's not, but I feel a bit too jaded to just say it'll be fine.
It's just as one of the hosts of the EDHREC Cast said in their 'Power Creep' episode - "Players are now being PUNISHED for NOT playing the newest thing."
Situational, but the other thing about Chromatic Lantern is that it turns your non-producing lands (fetch, maze of ith, whatever) into mana producers. That's more of a late-game benefit when the fixing is probably already solved.
I used to run chromatic lantern in every deck, now I only run it in specific decks that are three+ colors and don't have green, decks have a lot of multicolored cards, or decks that have a lot of 2 pip cards that are integral to what I am doing.
@@Kattywagon29 yes I play chrome lantern in 3 color non green decks pretty much exclusively. It's mostly so I can abuse utility lands.
@@bradleyhoward9638 It's nice to tap a Maze of Ith to counter a spell. :)
It also let's my Tabernacle & Bazaar of Baghdad tap for mana. 🎉
@@AzyxA I feel like you just looked up some expensive lands just to make that comment. LOL
Command Zone: “The CMC is too damn high!”
Me, a Golos Player: *laughs in average mana curve of 6 or higher*
Gets even better in Yuriko and narset. The former has a roughly 50/50 split of 0-1 cmc cards and 5+cmc cards, and narset is even more wacky usually getting 1-3 drop ramp to go into 6+mana spells over and over with her ability
I counted my Kruphix cards recently and I had about 20 cards which cost 6+
Kruphix don’t even care!
Yeah I have a demon reanimated deck but if I take those cards out of the curve it would probably be 2.0. With the demons it’s probably 4.5
And now golos is banned lol
Josh and Jimmy's nostalgic episode of "How we became spiky players".
Now I completely agree to tuning up decks so they run smoother and I do enjoy high powered games. However, the vast majority of what is discussed in this episode is down to personal taste for how you want to play commander.
Please Josh and Jimmy try to avoid going down the path of being one-dimensional in your view. I've watched you for years and in the last year you've become more spiky, hyperbolic and claiming that is the way the whole community is going. In the past you were far more open to different playstyles. I think you want to be responsible for keeping the game fun so don't push people so heavily towards low CMC, artifact-heavy, no combat damage, ramp up and explode with a value engine the others can't handle.
I agree. While arguably no one wants to spend the first 4 turns doing nothing but hitting the land drop and maybe playing a mana rock, there should be still be many viable way to play a format that can access cards from the whole history of Magic that just the optimized bunch of staples, mostly recently printed with Commander specifically in mind during the design phase.
There are so many other fast and spikey MtG formats out there that I do not think EDH should mirror, otherwise the game would just lose diversity. Presenting the current WotC philosophy of "buy the latest OP cards!" as the correct way to play EDH I find misleading.
@@ROMANTIKILLER2
You: "While arguably no one wants to spend the first 4 turns doing nothing but hitting the land drop and maybe playing a mana rock"
Me: "Here's my Ghidorah deck with a ton of cascade-type effects and Keruga as a companion! My first two turns don't even exist!" *girlish squeals of joy*
Honestly my fav episode is still the ones with LRR because they play with creative cards and more combat rather than trying to combo to win
I mean, I run chromatic lantern in a 2-color deck so I doubt I'm in a position to critique this video by the time I end it lol.
Edit: So, just finished the video and I couldn't help but chuckle. My favorite all time deck is this selesnya utility land deck because I Love Knight of the Reliquary so much. Yet I agreed with basically everything you two said, regretfully at times especially since my disdain for green's power creep through card draw is annoying. So since 2016 when I made this deck, I revamped it in 2017-early '18 and I've made like 5 swaps, 2 of which were from core 2021 (Mangara and Jolrael). I love the fact that my numbers for removal haven't changed but are the updated numbers you two suggest.
Yet I still run Praetor's Council because of the graveyard utility the deck has with lands and the mana production from Selvala to keep mana up even after that. And as for chromatic lantern? I run 40 lands, 38 produce mana, 13 basics, 8 dual lands. Just a fun video to watch after checking my deck along with it
I personally only run chromatic lantern in a 3-5 color deck
@@sandfire-768 I’m of the belief it’s only worth it in 5, maaybe 4. But I respect both of your opinions.
I sold all three Lanterns, partially because I ended up cutting them and also because I realized I had four 5C decks and decided to cap myself to one deck per color identity.
Lmaoo I run only basics and gulidgates in my decks, not even life lands they just roasted my buget
@@ToliG123 Honestly I am too! I just run so few color producing lands in the selesnya deck that the convenience of not caring what lands to tap for certain colors is more than that
But even instant speed land destruction doesn't stop someone activating a Cradle or Coffers the turn they play it?
Yeah, not sure what they were on about when they mentioned that. Unless you're a complete moron, nobody is dropping cradle unless they're about to win with it.
Perhaps the real land destruction is just Stifle effects for these lands, then killing them before they take another turn.
@@joe_h_Redwire Can't do that either, it's a mana effect which doesn't use the stack unless my brain isn't working correctly (which I'll admit is very possible). You can't Stifle Altar of Ashnod/Phyrexia and can do some weird stuff with them because they're "mana effects" or whatever. And you wont get priority anyway. They'll play the land and... then tap it. So... your instant land removal is just as good as Vindicate would have been. Also the "solution" being "just put in a Strip Mine" was uh... a thing. I have a bunch from the 90's, but that's like a $20 card. Vindicate is like $6.
I still haven't played a single game of Commander and I have watched every episode. Gratz on the 6 years, this content is always amazing. Mahalo Josh and Jimmy!
If you'd like to practice/try EDH without a big money or tike investment, MTG Forge is a fun freeware Shandalar-style MTG RPG with an EDH mode.
Thank you for this. I am now anticipating the prices of these cards to drop.
Also, not to compare but this is the reason why I watch Commander’s Quarters more, because the Command Zone is going towards the best cards to put in a deck, irregardless of cost. Not everyone has the money to drop for the best options, because if we did, all our decks are the same. Commander for me is an expression of your creativity and resourcefulness, and sometimes you really just have to make do with what you have.
I don't even buy specific cards for commander. I LOVE digging through my collection and figuring out how to make certain cards work in a deck or noticing a theme among some cards that might make for an interesting deck. I typically sell my really expensive staples to buy more cards. Variety is the spice of life after all!
Highly disagree with chromatic lantern. It’s so good in 5 color.
Depending on card choices, it's also really good in decks with less colors too! My Snapdax deck uses it with the Mana restrictive Aurelia, Gisela, and personal weird favorite War Elemental. Snapdax's mutate cost is also really heavy on colored mana.
My Jodah Deck likes it a lot :)
It's in my slivers and that's where it's staying lol
Last time I was this early Necropotence was in standard.
Lol
Man, Pernicious Deed was my deck!
I just need to know if you're serious...
Feels bad, when you can't play your janky but fun high cmc cards in commander anymore...
We need a new format.
That's why I got into commander tbh lol
I still play chromatic lantern in almost all my tripple color commander decks, just because it makes playing your stuff so much easier with the rainbow lands effect. Nothing feels worse than ramping early and then not being able to play your cards, just because you drew too many spells of the same color.
good luck blowing up a gaea's cradle with instants before they activate it. tapping a land for mana doesn't use the stack and can be done at any time, so that argument wasn't really valid. For other permanents, you're absolutely right, and I love my instants as much as the next guy, but that was a bit of misinformation.
Thank you so much for not using the word "moot." SO much.
Do you think that this video will lead to more or less homogenization in EDH?
More thats the goal apparently have everyone play the same overpriced cards
More
Proxies are the worst thing for homogenizing EDH.
@@wilfulbuckle13 I don't agree with that, but I do think that videos like this do harm to the diversity of the format. There are some cards you can't truly find replacements for, and proxies are great for that.
If we all proxy, likely will be playing the same cards. The "best" cards for each deck. Why play cards that are worse than ones you can proxy.
For a player like me this video seems to be the exact opposite of what I was told Commander was. Commander was supposed to be the hyper casual format that allowed you to play what you wanted and not have to drop a shiney penny just to have a viable deck. This whole power creep feels so anti Commander, Commander was set up to be against this sort of thing from it's core. At what point do we just turn Commander into another Standard where you need exorbitant amounts of disposable income to even have a good deck. I proudly keep all my decks under $500, and even that's extremely high for many people. Playing the big dumb cards was what Commander was all about. For me it was like back when I just played table top Magic. Only rule was 60 card minimum, and you either got your opponents life to 0 or you had an alternate win con. This way allowed people to build totally silly decks and still have fun. Personally I enjoy the longer, war of attrition, games more. They tend to be more memorable and have more to them. The whole quality over quantity. Was never meant to be about winning, it was about playing the game.
Well whoever told you that was wrong.
@@damo9961 no u
a friendly reminder that you don't need to target anything with stonehewer giant
congrats on 6 years guys!
I honestly don't like that it's being dictated how 'Commander is doing'. I don't like where Commander is ging BECAUSE of this very edgy way of wanting to win asap. I need the dynamics and the politics, I need to play my cool cards. That's what the format is for. Wtf guys... EDHREC seems like a bad thing, too. All these stats and data somehow dictate what you should and should not play. Whatever happened to 'play the cards you like'?
Not to mention every game basically being the same
@@harowlt9314 jank is not the same as your favorite cards. the format was intended to not seperate jank from what is 'playable'. The idea is to play cards you LIKE.
Which now you can't because the format has inherently become almost entirely competitive. It's just not the same anymore.
@@Mightypoo007 um... it’s not even approaching competitive. I play some cEDH, and unless your games look like legacy/vintage, it’s not nearly fully comp. It has gotten faster, but honestly I feel that that’s largely due to the increasing knowledge of the player base rather than the cards.
@@tntmage7-250 Nah, people are actively dismissing a huge portion of cards and starting looking down on just decent cards. There's more combo, there's more competitive information seeping into casual.
@@Mightypoo007 If it's any consolation, I still have a Mayael deck with Force of Nature in it. It's the deck I intentionally keep around in case I run into the more 5-6 range of players.
Hey guys, great video! We feel the same way about content creators and their opinions as you. Seems like we also agree about a lot of the "outclassed" cards too!
I hope you realize, though, that the play style you espouse on this channel(go faster, ramp more, "this is a good number of removal that I use", you probably "need" such and such in every deck, instant speed or bust, big creatures getting meh, games should probably be such and such amount of turns long, you must curve out to make your deck work better and therefore more fun) is directly influencing the very trends that you're noticing. As a trusted name in the community you can't claim anymore that you're merely "noticing" the very things that you have helped and are currently helping to become trends. The call is coming from inside the house. Moreover, you play lip service to the variety of deck and play styles that are out there while at the same time homogenizing the way that the general community approaches deck building. WOTC is, of course, also to blame for this effect since they are the ones who can only make better and better cards as the years go on. So I really can't "blame" you or get angry about it, really. It's just that the gradual result of this march of progress is a marginalizing effect on the more Vorthos and Timmy players out there, players who want to tell or feel a story with their decks or love it when games go for 20 turns and they get to see many different spells and interactions. I know that you're just "suggesting" it when you say, "8 pieces of ramp, 10 pieces of removal, 7 pieces of card draw", because, yes, you're correct from an optimization stand point and playgroups can see that and will build decks accordingly; but your repeated suggestion becomes a soft "law" with time. This makes it harder and harder to argue for something different in a playgroup if everyone in that group has just sort of seem the light and gone with the trend. It's a very distant cousin to netdecking, but it has the same effect - more and more decks built with a similar philosophy in mind, that being the "general" one. And it's sad because the unintended cost is a gradual loss in deck creativity and diversity of game experiences. Just a thought from an old man who started in Mirage
I miss playing fair magic
I agree that this type of content is homogenizing the EDH deck building but (unpopular opinion) EDH Rec is a far greater culprit in this. It provides all players with the same cards per commander. I've noticed the negative impact in my own play group.
@@olivergreer3690 agreed