I guess it's a bit of a spoiler, even if it's a minor one... but to be sure, if you haven't read that arc to the end, spoiler alert I guess. * * * I was so happy when I realized that the guy Bruce was talking to about the Gotham Knights (the american football team) in that pub was Kite-Man, I start to fist pump and yell OH YEAH!!! Wholesome little moment. Batman losing control over what Riddler did to Charlie Brown's son, over such a petty motive... Kite-Man is also one of my favorite elements on the new "Harley Quinn" animated show, his little thing with Ivy is the cutest
@biggs949597 s Oh, get point. I read worse stories but they didn't destroy the character in my eyes, so I get your logic. Yes Batman would win that fight. I guess with the same theme running in James Bond, Star Wars, and Doctor Who, I barely noticed men are weak plot.
@biggs949597 s In this we are in totally agreement. Batman would win, he's way bigger, stronger, and better trained. In the Batwoman TV show it's laughable that the tiny little Batwoman would possess the strength to win. I've met woman who are physically powerful and they are not built like what Disney and the WB are portraying. If they want to show physically powerful woman they should do it with exceptionally fit woman and not runway models.
Actually, sales were part of the reason that King’s run was cut short. After the wedding didn’t happen, sales on the book dropped by more than 40%. That’s when immortal hulk started outselling it. DC obviously wasn’t happy about this and saw the writing on the wall. But, since it’s in King’s DC contract that he writes a certain number of issues, DC gave him the batman/catwoman miniseries to fulfill it.
ComicTropes True. And every series goes through sales fluctuations. Immortal hulk’s aren’t as high as they were a few months before issue 25 came out( that issue polarized a lot of people). I think people are more critical of King’s run now that it’s over because many people feel that there was no real pay off. King strikes me a type of writer that works better on self contained series, like vision and Mr. Miracle. Hopefully, the Batman/ catwoman mini will be worth it and he’ll bring his a game.
@@ComicTropes In the video you said that comic sales were strong throughout the run but clearly your contradicting yourself here. As @Michael Head said , the decision to cut Toms run was directly after this drop off regardless of the rebound. He was moved off the comic because of fan backlash and James Tynion will def sell more when he takes over considering his excellent run on Detective Comics. Why would you state something obviously false about a 'tie in' that King didnt want to be a part of?
Probably the same reason Brian Michael Bendis was so good with Ultimate Spider-Man, but has since floundered with team books or Superman. Niche writers should stay in their niches it would seem.
Yep. We had a whole heartwarming moment of flash giving batman a letter from his father. And then even him meeting him and supposedly dying. Then He's brought back and instead of you know trying to be a part of Bruces life and integrated family correctly he joins a bunch of villains to ruin his sons life because losing his city friends and loved ones is somehow not as bad as the terrible life of being batman.The life bruce chose and had lived with for years
@@Aspi3Gam3r Yeah I loved mister miracle but his run on batman was something else. First he builds. up and ruins the wedding then he ruins flashpoint batman and so much more. Some people just can't write certain characters
Hi Chris, love the video! Just had a small point to make: It wasn't Tim Seeley who left after Nightwing was shot, it was Benjamin Percy. Tim Seeley had left the book after issue #34, and Sam Humphries took over for seven issues. After that it was Ben Percy, who ended up leaving after not wanting to do the "Ric" Grayson arc. Just wanted to clear that up!
deenydude7 Also, It’s my understanding that the Nightwing assassination attempt and subsequent amnesia was editorially mandated by Dan Didio, who reputedly hates the Dick Grayson character. Tom King didn’t have any control over who that character would be. It was a tie-in to the Nightwing book, which failed in bringing readers to Nightwing, but succeeded in derailing King’s storyline.
@@Mr_Rob_otto Yeah, that was my thought. King only peripherally focused on the Bat Family so I assumed this was an editorial thing to try to goose Nightwing. Detective Comics at the time was almost completely focused on the Bat Family and started at the same time so I assumed that was because King wasn't going to really planning use them. Didio has had it out for Nightwing forever.
@@Mr_Rob_otto Didio allegedly wanted Dick killed even way back during Infinite Crisis. I honestly don't know why he has such a hatred for that character.
I found it interesting that you didn’t address what I thought was one of the biggest controversies in the Tim King batman run, which was when Bruce punches Tim hard enough to send him flying across the floor as the bat family watches in horror. Personally I hated that moment, and I saw a lot of people debating about whether it counted as child abuse or not. I’m not really familiar with the new 52 as I prefer the pre rebirth comics, but I do think Tim was underage, and that he was at least Bruce’s ward, if not his son at the time. Tom King then tried to explain away the scene in a later issue by having Batman say something along the lines of “I would never punch my kid, I was communicating to him and everyone else there that we needed to scatter.” Which is just... so weird. Especially since one of the biggest things he tries to teach Cassandra is that she doesn’t need to communicate through violence, which he then admits to doing. I don’t know, I thought the justification was kinda bullshit, and while you could argue that Bruce punching Tim shows how far he’s fallen, I wish Tim King didn’t do that in a way that made people question whether Batman was a child abuser. Edit** I didn’t mean this to come off as a criticism of your video at all, I love your channel and your content, I just kinda wished you talked about this too, because the scene was pretty decisive among fans
extremely out of character for batman, he sees the robins as his sons, even jason, the fact he'd do that is just idiotic, he's not above harming people emotionally, but physically? no.
"I would never punch my kid" - beats Jason within an inch of his life under mistaken assumptions, on multiple occasions, when Jason isn't even defending himself, and needs to spend months in recovery. Father of the year, everyone.
This is how you write reviews for comics, you provide insight but at the same time you tell a story. You don't ruin things or finish the story for someone else. I will go out and buy the these comics because of the synopsis given, and that's the way it should be. Keep making these videos and I honestly believe the comic book industry has a chance to survive.
The larger storytelling in this run never struck me as notable, but I can’t lie in how much the smaller character moments King litters throughout are wonderful. Batman and his family in the burger joint. Batman in court. Batman and Superman doing a double date with Catwoman and Lois. Kite Man. All that stuff is wonderful. But the repetition and stagnated pacing of the plots at large really sour me on the run as a whole. I cannot deal with the “Bat. Cat.” thing, reading it was grating and I’m predisposed to liking those two together.
Wow, this perfectly summarizes my opinions on this run. Hopefully his WW is stronger, I think his writing style works better there buy time (and taste) will tell.
You should check out Batman: Wayne Family Adventures. It's a slice of life webtoon about basically every sidekick and protege Batman has ever had living together with him as a father figure
Even as someone who mainly reads things like Hellboy or Hellblazer i still love all your episodes regardless of the subject matter. Your love for comics is contagious. I have also loved every single episode when you show us some of the fairly terrible "silver/golden age" heroes like "Mr Whiskers" or "Black Condor". Thanks for all your hard work!
I genuinely like King as a writer but his run on Batman was interminable for me! Major leaps & stumbles in logic that were never properly resolved frankly! Bane, who hates Batman makes Catwoman think if they marry he won’t be Batman anymore? Wouldn’t that be a GOOD THING to Bane as opposed to pissing Bruce off by breaking him & Selina up & forcing him to double down on being the Bat!? Also the logic of Thomas Wayne doing all the despicable & stupid things with Bane really bothered me. In all his run has the worst story & character logic. Nothing makes sense and the “wait and see” excuses NEVER panned out. As someone that was an uber King fan before his Bat run (Mr Miracle & Vision are masterpieces) I was SO disappointed by his Batman run & was extremely happy to hear it came to an early close, whatever the so called reasons they gave at DC. I purposely stopped buying the title out of disinterest & as a “vote” of my dollar.
I agree. For me it was the Bendis-y dialogue. He started the series pretty solid and just started to believe his hype or something. This is why editors need to do their jobs. With less cringe dialogue I wouldn’t have disliked the run as much as I do
The best part of Tom King’s run of Batman for me was the Elmer Fudd crossover one shot. I don’t know how but King managed to incorporate the Looney Tunes in the DC Universe as humans and they managed to make it hilarious. Not only that but he incorporated these elements later in his run such as the Porky Bar or hell as much as the Knightmare arc was pointless and dragged on, I like the Roadrunner chase tribute
18:57 that seems.... illegal, how can you *buy* your way onto a jury? That would be suuuuper suspicious "why do you want to be on *this* trial? so badly"
The thing I disliked about Tom's writing is how I didn't feel he was giving different voices to the people he was writing. Long monologues or poetry don't bother me. It's the fact that everyone, unlike in real life, seemed to speak as if everyone's thoughts were indistinguishable from one another. The same voice reflecting either how he sees women talking or how his own voice comes out. As an example of him not writing people in charter: Lois Lane, during the girl's night out with Catwoman, was being written as a woman who had settled for her life as appose to the strong willed woman who was not only a award winning news reporter, a caring mother, but also had bagged the perfect man (Superman). Lois Lane Kent is a woman in control of her life if ever someone was. I also couldn't see her wanting to do the girl's night out with Catwoman; because I felt that she would view Catwoman as the Superman's work-friend's wife. Catwoman is a criminal and I can't see a good reporter trusting her enough to take her to Superman's fortress. For whatever reason, Tom feels that the only way a woman has depth is if she is either giving a round about insult or giving short jabs. He also made Catwoman a better fighter than I ever felt she had been in the past. Of course she could handle her own, but (as we saw in the fight with Bane before Thomas Wayne killed him) she seemed to be a more skilled fighter than Batman. Perhaps it was the trauma that King was trying to illustrate, but I felt his take on Batman made him seem less like the world's greatest detective/ fighter and more broken then he was in Knightfall. At least in Knightfall it had been a series of events that began when Jason died; instead this felt like a poor repeat of that. Taking more elements from the 'DarkKnight Rises' where Knightfall and No Man's Land were already combined. Making the real only difference the ideal that Catwoman was his rock. While I could see someone giving support and helping him in his hardship; I felt it was coming off more forced rather than natural. The reason some fans had complained that it felt like it was written for trade was because of the issues where you phrased it was sped up. There were issues of nothing happening except shots of people walking or having dialogue with each other that was take up an entire page. Like the page of them on their jet boats, "How have you been?" "Good." "Liar." Really. It needed that much padding when I'm spending almost the cost of the collected format for just this one issue. An example of what I would have like is Grant Morrison's All Star Superman. where each issue felt like a single stand alone story in issue form, but was clearly a larger story in collected form. Overall a decent review, good job. I just feel the reason why it wasn't interesting or new (Catwoman had married Batman before for the Hunters origin) is because everything he did had more or less been seen before.
I really felt that most of his characterizations are off, especially Batman himself and Commissioner Gordon. It was his idea to have Nightwing shot in the head and altered in an illogical way afterward. He turned the recently returned and well-received Wally West into a mentally unwell murderer. And, I stopped reading, but Alfred supposedly died as well? Talk about character assassination . . . Then, all the build-up to that non-wedding, with so much promotion and all the "extra" merchandise to support it, was a real sour note for me. I can see where the relationship might not have moved forward, but Selina is a far too independent person to let her friend talk her out of something that she felt so strongly about. And, finally, how can Thomas Wayne Batman not only survive the destroyed Flashpoint Universe but move into the main universe and turn on the son that he had been so glad to meet? I can't say I'll be sad to see him move on.
@@megamonmon except that Johns specifically said Dr Manhattan orchestrated the meeting in The Button for a specific purpose and there was supoosed to be followup. But Didio seems determined to ruin all things Johns and told King to make Thomas the main villain instead of Bane after issue 50.
Yes Trevor. Tom sucks. I am from Spain. I've been reading Batman for 20 years. I love Grant Morrison's Batman, or Paul Dini or many other authors. I love Brubaker's Catwoman. With Tom King I have lost interest in continuing to read Batman and Catwoman. It's really bad. He is the worst of the worst.
You are with out a doubt one of the greatest comic TH-cams ever. You seriously know your stuff! I look forward to ever video. I think King is a great writer but he should probably stick to limited series instead of ongoings. And sometimes his writing style just doesn’t fit certain characters, it works in things like Vision and Mister Miracle but in Batman it is so jarring and weird having to hear Catwoman and Batman say “Bat” and “Cat.”
Another excellent piece of description, explanation and analysis. I don't think I have the ability to take the absolute mass of information, philosophies and ideas - and then reduce it to just 15 minutes. And do it with brilliant clarity. This year - in particular - you've been tackling immensely complicated and long storylines and reducing them to something understandable - both in terms of the story and the ideas motivating it. There's a real artistry in what you're doing these days. I look at - and enjoy - other comic blogs. But none of them have your ability to bring your holistic clarity to the stories, the artwork, the philosophies motivating both and put it in a context of the personal lives of the artists. I think we've reached your Golden Age, man. And there's still a Platinum Age and Diamond Age to come if you keep up this form. Thank you.
I liked Batman and Catwoman's relationship (aside from her saying "meow" far too much), but what he did to Nightwing was unforgivable. Which is a real shame because I also really liked the short bit he gave us between Dick and Damian, so it's not like I hated his Dick as a whole. But the fact that he's directly responsible for the entire Ric era, and against the wishes of the guy actually writing Nightwing at the time at that? I have never dropped a book faster.
To be honest, I was all for this until Thomas Wayne showed up. I just didn’t get it. My favorite was the comparison between Bane and Bruce. I didn’t like was the terrible use of the bat family. I understand he focused on the BatCat relationship but Batman seemed unBatman to me and I think that’s why I wasn’t feeling this run as much.
Around the Nightwing part, King initially wanted Tim Drake to team up with Dick and step in as Nightwing temporarily. DC changed this last minute in order to "update" Dicks character.
The remarks about Nightwing remind me of your video on the New 52 and how there was creative dissonance there - esp thanks to Didio going so hard on the idea of a reboot and much of the work being in 2011 rather than - like with COIE - some multi year plan.
Vincent Franklin I still think this was the result of really intrusive editors being involved, I mean just look what Dan Didio did to Tim Drake (or really anything Dan Didio did his entire career as a comic book editor. Don’t believe me? Just look up what both Chris Claremont and Louise “Wheezy” Simonson had to say about his actions as an X-book editor and how he would throw casual sexist language at poor Wheezy on a regular basis leading to these Star writers to quit Marvel altogether in the early 90’s!) The man’s all but confirmed to be the reason longtime Vertigo editor in chief Karen Berger left DC Comics leaving the remaining Vertigo imprint to slowly wither and die. The man kills alienates all the real female talent and I for one cannot believe he had nothing to do with Catwoman calling off the wedding, it’s the exact same Madelyne Pryor shit he pulled in 80’s all over again.
I love that you avoid spoilers, thank you. That's one of the reasons why you have become my favorite channel since I discovered your channel two weeks ago.
Poor Wonder Woman. I remember a time in Superman in the 2000's when she and Superman got stuck in another time compressed dimension battling for 200 years. This is just another Tuesday for her.
Chris, that intro... looked like something else... on another note, your lighting and the film quality looks great!!! Thanks for the video, I loved it!
The very high quality of your videos is what makes this channel stand out from the crowd. Your channel is the standard for excellence in your field. Please endeavor to maintain the high standard you have set for yourself, even if it means you only make one video a month.
The first three arcs are what got me back into reading comics.The part in the first issue where he asks Alfred if his parents would be proud of him was so good. I bailed right before the wedding. It felt like there was this huge stretch after The War of Jokes and Riddles where Tom King was just spinning his wheels. It sounds like he managed to stick the landing which is good but buying issue to issue was such a mistake on my part.
Pros of the run for me: First few arcs actually told measured and logical stories, the Brave and the Mold issue, the wedding lead-up including Date Night, the wedding issue itself. Sins of the run for me: repetition, Bane, logic completely getting left behind, suicide, the failed wedding that didn't get cleaned up well, more repetition of issues where Batman punched his entire rogues gallery, the abominable treatment of the Gotham Girl storyline, Alfred, shooting Dick Grayson for no good reason, Bane, Bane, Bane, more dream sequences, using poetry and songs repetitively.
I loved Vision and Mister Miracle, but overall King's Batman run was really frustrating for me as a lifelong reader. I always appreciate your thoughtful enthusiasm. Thanks again for consistently great content.
I can see Riddler becoming obsessed with the riddle of 'why can't Joker laugh anymore'. His character was always one of narcissism and obsession. It does seem off however that he is trying to make Joker laugh instead of finding out why he won't laugh though.
King's run was one of the reasons I stopped collecting Batman after almost 30 years. It was a mess but I got through it hoping the next writer would be better. And then we got Tynion IV, and I was out the door for good.
this is my favorite TH-cam channel. your videos are so great and consistent and I have never seen a comic book channel like yours. keep up the stellar work!!!!!!!
I just have to say, your videos are very entertaining. Your passion for the subject matter really comes through, and that means just about everything. Plus, your personality and sense of humor make for a unique take on things, and are very engaging. I really enjoy watching your channel, and keep up the good work. I am proud to be a subscriber, and will further my support as soon as I can. But for now, may I offer a very heartfelt "thank you".
Tom King's run was so bloated and disappointing. It's really a shame, because he is a great writer. I think he should've been given a shorter run. He's shown in his one shots-like the Batman Annual a few weeks back-that he does well with a tight story and brief length.
@Warrior Robotics Curious, where were the red flags? Did he have previous long runs that went poorly or are you saying during the Batman run the editor should've made a change?
@Warrior Robotics So here I would argue with you. King had successful year long runs on Mister Miracle and The Vision so it's logical to think he can do more. If during his runs on those series he'd teetered off at the end then it would make sense not to give him a longer run, but since he succeeded it makes sense to give him more. If someone does a job well they usually get a promotion. If you win a make you take on a tougher opponent. So King succeeded with 12 issues and got a longer run. Plus ex-CIA, that had to carry a lot of weight considering the character.
@Warrior Robotics I agree with you that maybe they should've offered a shorter run, say 36 issues, seen how it went and extended at some point if warranted, but also consider that he was a hot writer with successful runs and they may have thought locking him up in a long term contract before someone else does, was a good move. It happens in sports a lot.
@Warrior Robotics Tom King is a better writer when You have a good editor telling him "No". King has a better Sense Of Pacing and storytelling when he has a short amount Of issues. But when You let him TALK for more time he gets off-the rails
I honestly just enjoyed how human they made Bruce feel throughout this. Along with how heavily atmospheric certain issues are. Absolutely loved the self-retroflective fear arc.
Wait, hold up, time out. Mister Freeze was on trial and in danger of getting the DEATH PENALTY, okay... So uh, how come they never thought about doing that to the Joker?
@@mariod1547 The Joker is estimated, in-universe, to have a kill count of over 2 000. With that number of kills, clinically insane or not, any self-respecting court of law in any country would have put him to death a very long time ago.
@@aderemiporsche He was gonna get put down in one arc in the 90's but for a murder he didn't commit suprisingly but Batman saved him. In another 90's arc, Ra's Al Ghul killed him but Batman used the Lazarus pit to resurrect him for info. Jason Todd legitimately has a valid reason to hate Bruce in Under the hood.
The thing I like about King is the same as what I like about Scott Snyder or Grant Morrison, namely that he always swings for the fences. He doesn’t always hit and his hits don’t always become home runs, but the fact that he swings with all he’s got every time regardless is admirable.
This is definitely the best and most comprehensive channel on comic tropes, history, and creators I have ever seen. Always look forward to your videos, Chris.
Tom King blew it when he had Catwoman chicken out of the wedding. When reached for comment, Catwoman said, "...I'm not bad, I'm just written that way.."
Tom King's Vision is still one of my favorites. I also like Miracle Man (cause I like anything with the New Gods), but I'm not too proud to admit that I found it difficult to read.
It should be noted that the Ric Grayson affair was never intended to be the debacle it was. King wanted it to have a minimal effect on outside books, suggesting Tim Drake take over as Nightwing while Dick went through rehab. DiDio choosing Lobdell's pitch for Ric Grayson threw all the Nightwing Adjacent books off track, such as Titans where he had just taken over as leader for the New Justice Relaunch, to King's run where he wasn't able to use Dick for City of Bane or Batman/Catwoman, and the main Nightwing book, of course, which led to Benjamin Percy (not Seeley) to leave for Marvel full-time. Dan DiDio: He sure hates Nightwing!
King hates nightwing. Why drag in a character to be shot in a comic where we are told that batman who the death was supposed to affect has never similed or had a moment of happiness since the night his folks died? if batman was never happy in all the years he spent bringing up Dick that he never similed even once in all those years then that means that Batman never cared for Dick so Dick getting shot shouldn't affect him. Dick also was pointless in the run to build up a foundation to the scene. After he was shot Batman got a bit smashy smash and that's it. This is his son. But he spends months tantruming and depressed because he was dumped by a woman who has dumped you lots of times before. If Bane wanted to break the Bat he should have shot Selina. It was a cheap shot.
Always enjoy the content. That intro though has to be one of my favorite ones so far. King's run on Batman had more lows, than it did highs imo. Then after that whole Bat wedding debacle was the icing on the cake that Batman should be handed over to someone who understands the Bat, compared to King's run.
King's run would have been Miles better had his run ended onnthe Wedding with The cliffhanger Of Bane manipulating his life and now that he is at his happiest, he is ready to strike. And left The Run on hands Of Tom Taylor or Tynion or Tomasi who know How to write Batman as a family man. Even If King becomes co-writer.
I enjoy and truly appreciate what you do. If it takes longer than a week, that's fine! Life happens. Thanks for this newest episode. I mostly listen while I'm moving around the house, so everybody in my house gets to know about the newest tropes.
I felt kind of mixed about it. It had some good parts but some parts I couldn’t stand. I did not like most of the bane stuff and I HATED all the Thomas stuff (except for the grim fairy tale)
I am really digging the recent Tom King stuff. Strange Adventures and this new one, Human Target are mysteries with a C-List characters. My favorite Tom King stuff so far. Keep up the great work!
Really enjoyed this run personally and it's the first entire run of TPB I have bought in a while. Its hit and miss of course but it's so entertaining all the way through.
Hey Chris, Genuinely love your videos. I especially love the longer videos that go into more detail about what you like and dislike about a particular comic book run. Just wanted to say I appreciate you putting quality ahead of quantity. Cheers!
My main issue with King’s run is how self indulgent it is. It is always so heavy handed in its take on all of the characters. The characters are almost become caricatures of themselves, becoming slaves to the themes Tom King is insistent on exploring.
I think many thing's could be argued, but Tom King certainly had a consistent and steady hand with Batman that paid off with a long, coherent arc, which is actually pretty uncommon! Just I think the payoff depends on how much we are able to subscribe to his story telling style, poetic repetition and rambling that could only ever work in a comic book format and the idea that Trauma is the mother of all development. The only issue is I kinda feel that's the only story he really knows how to tell, great with Batman, but once we understand how he tells stories, we see it in everything he writes. A very enjoyable recap! Thank you comictropes!
I like some parts of it like the kiteman story, gotham girl, duke, the stuff with superman, the wonderwoman story, the freeze trial and the booster gold stuff, but I felt like some of the stories feel like they drag on for faaarr too long. But at least they haven't been as infuriating to read as the BMD.
You earned a subscriber, thanks for the content! Batman and Catwoman are my OTP, they have been for forever, so their marriage arc was everything I always wanted to see, it was probably the closest I'll ever get to see an ending for The Caped Crusader, but of course the publishers I mean the fates cannot ever let Batman just retire because he makes too much money for the compan-I MEAN Gotham City needs him despite the number heroes moving into town...
gotta say i'm glad kings run is ending soon and dc is actually giving tynion a part in the main bat book city of bane especially was a complete shitshow while detective comics was consistently great all throughout
Tom King focused more on Batman's humanity, we saw him lose it and almost killed someone, we saw him fall in love, make mistakes and miscalculations, we actually saw him as a human in this run compared to other runs where he is depicted almost like a god, super smart, everything he does is calculated and never makes any mistake.
people forget, Batman is a perfect warrior but he's also a human being. we are seeing the weight of his role, being Batman is a choice. and that has its consequences
I know im asking randomly but does someone know of a trick to get back into an Instagram account?? I was stupid lost the account password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me
@Roy Marley thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im trying it out atm. Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will get back to you later with my results.
Sales were consistent? In February Batman they were shipping 90,000 units, by October it's 60,000. A 33% drop is pretty significant. A lot of people were pretty upset over the bait and switch wedding and you pointed out crap like shooting Nightwing in the head as well as overly long runs like the nightmare story hurt King's run. And you pointed out the repetitious dialogue. Maybe King's style simply doesn't work over long periods, or maybe editors should have kept better control over his excesses.
@@ComicTropes but not to King's original numbers, which were over a hundred thousand. And the rebound didn't last. Look at these numbers for issues sold: 78 81,000 79 61,000 80 62,000 81 60,000 82 71,000 83 60,000 This is supposed to be the grand finale and people are just...tired of King's material by this point. I think it was the bait and switch wedding, which wasn't helped by the fact something similar happened in X-Men Gold. People like to see the tiniest bit of joy come into the lives of heroes. When it's non-stop angst people just get exhausted. I feel bad for King and his mental health issues, but people don't want to pay for what seems to be his working out his problems through his work, projecting his mental trauma on the characters he is entrusted with.
King's Miracle Man was such a fantastic run. Have to say this was a really great video. Always been a fan of the longer videos, but understandably that would be harder to produce on a weekly basis. Having to wait an extra might suck, but when the videos are this good it's worth the wait! Keep up the great work and thanks for all the excellent content this year!
Maybe his time with the CIA got Tom interested in the effect of trauma on personality. Inflicting traumaa on people so they become compliant is a big part of CIA operations
Honestly... The wedding just fucking ruined this run for me. I really liked how King built up their romance, and to have that payoff was just so frustrating on so many levels.
the things he does for intos , how can you not love the man
He's a legend!
They're always hilarious
😭😭😭✊✊✊
Lmao
The intros are fantastic. Make my day every time 😆
The best part of Tom King's run on Batman was Kite Man. Hell yeah!
I felt due to his love of repetition it got run into the ground
everyone left with kite man...............................................
I guess it's a bit of a spoiler, even if it's a minor one... but to be sure, if you haven't read that arc to the end, spoiler alert I guess.
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I was so happy when I realized that the guy Bruce was talking to about the Gotham Knights (the american football team) in that pub was Kite-Man, I start to fist pump and yell OH YEAH!!!
Wholesome little moment. Batman losing control over what Riddler did to Charlie Brown's son, over such a petty motive...
Kite-Man is also one of my favorite elements on the new "Harley Quinn" animated show, his little thing with Ivy is the cutest
The best part of his run is that it's over
@@randallflagg3700 kinda disappointed the final line in the bar scene as they watch the game wasn't a "Hell yeah"
Holy shit this intro really raised the bar Chris
Rebirth? More like afterbirth. That was some intro.
@biggs949597 s Worst, wow, I had issues with part of it and ultimately stopped reading but even so I've definitely seen worse.
@biggs949597 s Oh, get point. I read worse stories but they didn't destroy the character in my eyes, so I get your logic. Yes Batman would win that fight. I guess with the same theme running in James Bond, Star Wars, and Doctor Who, I barely noticed men are weak plot.
@biggs949597 s In this we are in totally agreement. Batman would win, he's way bigger, stronger, and better trained. In the Batwoman TV show it's laughable that the tiny little Batwoman would possess the strength to win. I've met woman who are physically powerful and they are not built like what Disney and the WB are portraying. If they want to show physically powerful woman they should do it with exceptionally fit woman and not runway models.
Disturbing...
Binding of Isaac?
"Wedding falls apart because of villain's actions" is SUCH a cliche, though.
Actually, sales were part of the reason that King’s run was cut short. After the wedding didn’t happen, sales on the book dropped by more than 40%. That’s when immortal hulk started outselling it.
DC obviously wasn’t happy about this and saw the writing on the wall. But, since it’s in King’s DC contract that he writes a certain number of issues, DC gave him the batman/catwoman miniseries to fulfill it.
Michael Head True, but sales rebounded.
ComicTropes True. And every series goes through sales fluctuations. Immortal hulk’s aren’t as high as they were a few months before issue 25 came out( that issue polarized a lot of people).
I think people are more critical of King’s run now that it’s over because many people feel that there was no real pay off.
King strikes me a type of writer that works better on self contained series, like vision and Mr. Miracle. Hopefully, the Batman/ catwoman mini will be worth it and he’ll bring his a game.
@@ComicTropes In the video you said that comic sales were strong throughout the run but clearly your contradicting yourself here. As @Michael Head said , the decision to cut Toms run was directly after this drop off regardless of the rebound. He was moved off the comic because of fan backlash and James Tynion will def sell more when he takes over considering his excellent run on Detective Comics. Why would you state something obviously false about a 'tie in' that King didnt want to be a part of?
DC panicked. even though Batman earns more than any of their titles hahaha
Tom King leading up to wedding is good. Then wedding (didn’t) happen, and it just turned…weird.
High point: "Kite Man, hell yeah!"
Low point: Everything else.
Worst point: Bringing back Flashpoint Batman and totally wasting him.
Felix Blackwood
Other worst point: bane getting catwoman to call off the wedding.
@@daelen.cclark Yeah, that also was quite lame. How could King be so great on the Vision miniseries but so clueless writing Batman?
Probably the same reason Brian Michael Bendis was so good with Ultimate Spider-Man, but has since floundered with team books or Superman. Niche writers should stay in their niches it would seem.
Yep. We had a whole heartwarming moment of flash giving batman a letter from his father. And then even him meeting him and supposedly dying. Then He's brought back and instead of you know trying to be a part of Bruces life and integrated family correctly he joins a bunch of villains to ruin his sons life because losing his city friends and loved ones is somehow not as bad as the terrible life of being batman.The life bruce chose and had lived with for years
@@Aspi3Gam3r Yeah I loved mister miracle but his run on batman was something else. First he builds. up and ruins the wedding then he ruins flashpoint batman and so much more. Some people just can't write certain characters
Hi Chris, love the video! Just had a small point to make: It wasn't Tim Seeley who left after Nightwing was shot, it was Benjamin Percy. Tim Seeley had left the book after issue #34, and Sam Humphries took over for seven issues. After that it was Ben Percy, who ended up leaving after not wanting to do the "Ric" Grayson arc. Just wanted to clear that up!
deenydude7 Also, It’s my understanding that the Nightwing assassination attempt and subsequent amnesia was editorially mandated by Dan Didio, who reputedly hates the Dick Grayson character. Tom King didn’t have any control over who that character would be. It was a tie-in to the Nightwing book, which failed in bringing readers to Nightwing, but succeeded in derailing King’s storyline.
@@Mr_Rob_otto Yeah, that was my thought. King only peripherally focused on the Bat Family so I assumed this was an editorial thing to try to goose Nightwing. Detective Comics at the time was almost completely focused on the Bat Family and started at the same time so I assumed that was because King wasn't going to really planning use them. Didio has had it out for Nightwing forever.
@@Mr_Rob_otto Didio allegedly wanted Dick killed even way back during Infinite Crisis. I honestly don't know why he has such a hatred for that character.
@outlines That's a very petty reaction from an editor, moreso since he's basically saying he thinks characters shouldn't develop and grow.
@@josegregoriobencomogomez4958 it comes from even before then. He proposed a Crisis-event which wasn’t approved where Dick would become a villain.
Does Batman even have a secret identity anymore? Seems like everyone knows who he is
nohomers100 that's how i feel about modern Spider-man comics and movies
@@rodrigomarcondes5857 iron man in the comics pre-2000s had a secret identity. After the movie he never felt like the same character to me.
Most the rogues don’t
@@Power3DHD actually his identity in the comics was revealed a few years before the movie.
those in the superhero community know each others identities but the public and villains don't is generally how it works now.
I found it interesting that you didn’t address what I thought was one of the biggest controversies in the Tim King batman run, which was when Bruce punches Tim hard enough to send him flying across the floor as the bat family watches in horror. Personally I hated that moment, and I saw a lot of people debating about whether it counted as child abuse or not. I’m not really familiar with the new 52 as I prefer the pre rebirth comics, but I do think Tim was underage, and that he was at least Bruce’s ward, if not his son at the time. Tom King then tried to explain away the scene in a later issue by having Batman say something along the lines of “I would never punch my kid, I was communicating to him and everyone else there that we needed to scatter.” Which is just... so weird. Especially since one of the biggest things he tries to teach Cassandra is that she doesn’t need to communicate through violence, which he then admits to doing. I don’t know, I thought the justification was kinda bullshit, and while you could argue that Bruce punching Tim shows how far he’s fallen, I wish Tim King didn’t do that in a way that made people question whether Batman was a child abuser.
Edit** I didn’t mean this to come off as a criticism of your video at all, I love your channel and your content, I just kinda wished you talked about this too, because the scene was pretty decisive among fans
(Was this Tom King's Batman or Detective Comics, which was written by someone else?)
Samuel Christie yeah it was in Tom Kings run, issue #71 to be exact
extremely out of character for batman, he sees the robins as his sons, even jason, the fact he'd do that is just idiotic, he's not above harming people emotionally, but physically? no.
"I would never punch my kid" - beats Jason within an inch of his life under mistaken assumptions, on multiple occasions, when Jason isn't even defending himself, and needs to spend months in recovery. Father of the year, everyone.
Tom, not Tim, and divisive, not decisive.
"He joined the CIA and where became a counter terrorism operations officer" what the fuuu?
I love how casual he told us that
What did he know about Bane?
@@tompor561 That he's a big guy.
@@josegregoriobencomogomez4958 for you
Just casually dropped that bomb on us lol
This is how you write reviews for comics, you provide insight but at the same time you tell a story. You don't ruin things or finish the story for someone else.
I will go out and buy the these comics because of the synopsis given, and that's the way it should be. Keep making these videos and I honestly believe the comic book industry has a chance to survive.
The larger storytelling in this run never struck me as notable, but I can’t lie in how much the smaller character moments King litters throughout are wonderful.
Batman and his family in the burger joint. Batman in court. Batman and Superman doing a double date with Catwoman and Lois. Kite Man. All that stuff is wonderful.
But the repetition and stagnated pacing of the plots at large really sour me on the run as a whole. I cannot deal with the “Bat. Cat.” thing, reading it was grating and I’m predisposed to liking those two together.
The Bat and Cat stuff I hated originally, but honestly grew on me after I finished reading it, plus I just love seeing those two in genuine love
Wow, this perfectly summarizes my opinions on this run. Hopefully his WW is stronger, I think his writing style works better there buy time (and taste) will tell.
I genuinely want a video that's just a compilation of all the intros of this channel.
You should check out Batman: Wayne Family Adventures. It's a slice of life webtoon about basically every sidekick and protege Batman has ever had living together with him as a father figure
Even as someone who mainly reads things like Hellboy or Hellblazer i still love all your episodes regardless of the subject matter. Your love for comics is contagious. I have also loved every single episode when you show us some of the fairly terrible "silver/golden age" heroes like "Mr Whiskers" or "Black Condor". Thanks for all your hard work!
I genuinely like King as a writer but his run on Batman was interminable for me! Major leaps & stumbles in logic that were never properly resolved frankly! Bane, who hates Batman makes Catwoman think if they marry he won’t be Batman anymore? Wouldn’t that be a GOOD THING to Bane as opposed to pissing Bruce off by breaking him & Selina up & forcing him to double down on being the Bat!? Also the logic of Thomas Wayne doing all the despicable & stupid things with Bane really bothered me. In all his run has the worst story & character logic. Nothing makes sense and the “wait and see” excuses NEVER panned out. As someone that was an uber King fan before his Bat run (Mr Miracle & Vision are masterpieces) I was SO disappointed by his Batman run & was extremely happy to hear it came to an early close, whatever the so called reasons they gave at DC. I purposely stopped buying the title out of disinterest & as a “vote” of my dollar.
The industry needs new people.
I agree. For me it was the Bendis-y dialogue. He started the series pretty solid and just started to believe his hype or something. This is why editors need to do their jobs. With less cringe dialogue I wouldn’t have disliked the run as much as I do
Super JLK I love Tynion, he’s been quietly keeping DC afloat along with Tomasi. Brilliant writers that get the job done.
Andru Collins Yeah we seem to be in the era of Celebrity Writers over continuity & coherent storytelling.
Let's not forget when batman watches Joker murder a woman right in front of him, sits down with him, forgives him, and prays for him.
The best part of Tom King’s run of Batman for me was the Elmer Fudd crossover one shot. I don’t know how but King managed to incorporate the Looney Tunes in the DC Universe as humans and they managed to make it hilarious. Not only that but he incorporated these elements later in his run such as the Porky Bar or hell as much as the Knightmare arc was pointless and dragged on, I like the Roadrunner chase tribute
This is the only thing Tom King has written that I actually enjoyed.
@@drzerogi
Damn that’s sad
18:57 that seems.... illegal, how can you *buy* your way onto a jury? That would be suuuuper suspicious "why do you want to be on *this* trial? so badly"
"Batman has rarely taken superpowered heroes under his wing".
I think we need a video on Batman and the Outsiders.
One of my favorite issues was that single issue story with Swamp Thing. I got it signed by Tom King.
The thing I disliked about Tom's writing is how I didn't feel he was giving different voices to the people he was writing. Long monologues or poetry don't bother me. It's the fact that everyone, unlike in real life, seemed to speak as if everyone's thoughts were indistinguishable from one another. The same voice reflecting either how he sees women talking or how his own voice comes out.
As an example of him not writing people in charter: Lois Lane, during the girl's night out with Catwoman, was being written as a woman who had settled for her life as appose to the strong willed woman who was not only a award winning news reporter, a caring mother, but also had bagged the perfect man (Superman). Lois Lane Kent is a woman in control of her life if ever someone was. I also couldn't see her wanting to do the girl's night out with Catwoman; because I felt that she would view Catwoman as the Superman's work-friend's wife. Catwoman is a criminal and I can't see a good reporter trusting her enough to take her to Superman's fortress.
For whatever reason, Tom feels that the only way a woman has depth is if she is either giving a round about insult or giving short jabs. He also made Catwoman a better fighter than I ever felt she had been in the past. Of course she could handle her own, but (as we saw in the fight with Bane before Thomas Wayne killed him) she seemed to be a more skilled fighter than Batman.
Perhaps it was the trauma that King was trying to illustrate, but I felt his take on Batman made him seem less like the world's greatest detective/ fighter and more broken then he was in Knightfall. At least in Knightfall it had been a series of events that began when Jason died; instead this felt like a poor repeat of that. Taking more elements from the 'DarkKnight Rises' where Knightfall and No Man's Land were already combined. Making the real only difference the ideal that Catwoman was his rock. While I could see someone giving support and helping him in his hardship; I felt it was coming off more forced rather than natural.
The reason some fans had complained that it felt like it was written for trade was because of the issues where you phrased it was sped up. There were issues of nothing happening except shots of people walking or having dialogue with each other that was take up an entire page. Like the page of them on their jet boats, "How have you been?" "Good." "Liar." Really. It needed that much padding when I'm spending almost the cost of the collected format for just this one issue.
An example of what I would have like is Grant Morrison's All Star Superman. where each issue felt like a single stand alone story in issue form, but was clearly a larger story in collected form.
Overall a decent review, good job. I just feel the reason why it wasn't interesting or new (Catwoman had married Batman before for the Hunters origin) is because everything he did had more or less been seen before.
👏👏👏
Don Perki
I thought it was weird when catwoman won against talia.
@@MyselfandComics It's almost as if King hadn't actually read a Batman comic before he started writing him. 🤔
@@PerkEdge yeah it was very weird Catwoman is a skilled fighter but she is nowhere near as good as Talia
Don Perki
Hahahaha! Because of PLOT.
I really felt that most of his characterizations are off, especially Batman himself and Commissioner Gordon. It was his idea to have Nightwing shot in the head and altered in an illogical way afterward. He turned the recently returned and well-received Wally West into a mentally unwell murderer. And, I stopped reading, but Alfred supposedly died as well? Talk about character assassination . . . Then, all the build-up to that non-wedding, with so much promotion and all the "extra" merchandise to support it, was a real sour note for me. I can see where the relationship might not have moved forward, but Selina is a far too independent person to let her friend talk her out of something that she felt so strongly about. And, finally, how can Thomas Wayne Batman not only survive the destroyed Flashpoint Universe but move into the main universe and turn on the son that he had been so glad to meet? I can't say I'll be sad to see him move on.
For your last point, reverse flash dropped him off in the main universe and king just retroactively says that thomas was always a crazy asshole
@@megamonmon Thank you. That always bugged me.
@@megamonmon except that Johns specifically said Dr Manhattan orchestrated the meeting in The Button for a specific purpose and there was supoosed to be followup. But Didio seems determined to ruin all things Johns and told King to make Thomas the main villain instead of Bane after issue 50.
Yes Trevor. Tom sucks. I am from Spain. I've been reading Batman for 20 years. I love Grant Morrison's Batman, or Paul Dini or many other authors. I love Brubaker's Catwoman. With Tom King I have lost interest in continuing to read Batman and Catwoman. It's really bad. He is the worst of the worst.
Jesus Christ no wonder comics are dying when these are the fans lol
You are with out a doubt one of the greatest comic TH-cams ever. You seriously know your stuff! I look forward to ever video.
I think King is a great writer but he should probably stick to limited series instead of ongoings. And sometimes his writing style just doesn’t fit certain characters, it works in things like Vision and Mister Miracle but in Batman it is so jarring and weird having to hear Catwoman and Batman say “Bat” and “Cat.”
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@@peterpykalainen9912 are you okay sir
They literally call each other that all the time in and out of kings run that is so f****** insane.
Another excellent piece of description, explanation and analysis. I don't think I have the ability to take the absolute mass of information, philosophies and ideas - and then reduce it to just 15 minutes. And do it with brilliant clarity. This year - in particular - you've been tackling immensely complicated and long storylines and reducing them to something understandable - both in terms of the story and the ideas motivating it.
There's a real artistry in what you're doing these days.
I look at - and enjoy - other comic blogs. But none of them have your ability to bring your holistic clarity to the stories, the artwork, the philosophies motivating both and put it in a context of the personal lives of the artists.
I think we've reached your Golden Age, man. And there's still a Platinum Age and Diamond Age to come if you keep up this form.
Thank you.
I liked Batman and Catwoman's relationship (aside from her saying "meow" far too much), but what he did to Nightwing was unforgivable. Which is a real shame because I also really liked the short bit he gave us between Dick and Damian, so it's not like I hated his Dick as a whole. But the fact that he's directly responsible for the entire Ric era, and against the wishes of the guy actually writing Nightwing at the time at that? I have never dropped a book faster.
To be honest, I was all for this until Thomas Wayne showed up. I just didn’t get it.
My favorite was the comparison between Bane and Bruce.
I didn’t like was the terrible use of the bat family. I understand he focused on the BatCat relationship but Batman seemed unBatman to me and I think that’s why I wasn’t feeling this run as much.
Does anyone remeber when King dedicated an entire issue, just to waist it on a Roadrunner reference.
Oh right. The Knightmares Arc. By goose that was When Tom King tried to be experimental and failed
Morrison did the same thing but succeeded with Animal Man.
Waste
What about the entire issue that was just Thomas telling Bruce a nursery rhyme while they walked through the desert
@@chrisdavis7836 That entire 3 issue arc could have been compressed into just one issue... like a lot of many other arcs King wrote.
Around the Nightwing part, King initially wanted Tim Drake to team up with Dick and step in as Nightwing temporarily. DC changed this last minute in order to "update" Dicks character.
The remarks about Nightwing remind me of your video on the New 52 and how there was creative dissonance there - esp thanks to Didio going so hard on the idea of a reboot and much of the work being in 2011 rather than - like with COIE - some multi year plan.
I'll just say this. I was furious when the Bat\ Cat wedding didn't happen.
Vincent Franklin I still think this was the result of really intrusive editors being involved, I mean just look what Dan Didio did to Tim Drake (or really anything Dan Didio did his entire career as a comic book editor. Don’t believe me? Just look up what both Chris Claremont and Louise “Wheezy” Simonson had to say about his actions as an X-book editor and how he would throw casual sexist language at poor Wheezy on a regular basis leading to these Star writers to quit Marvel altogether in the early 90’s!) The man’s all but confirmed to be the reason longtime Vertigo editor in chief Karen Berger left DC Comics leaving the remaining Vertigo imprint to slowly wither and die. The man kills alienates all the real female talent and I for one cannot believe he had nothing to do with Catwoman calling off the wedding, it’s the exact same Madelyne Pryor shit he pulled in 80’s all over again.
I’m glad it didn’t. Batman and Catwoman are not a good couple and are unhealthy and dysfunctional.
I love that you avoid spoilers, thank you. That's one of the reasons why you have become my favorite channel since I discovered your channel two weeks ago.
Great review and very well presented. I think time will be kinder to Tom`s run which did a lot of good in it. The War of Jokes and Riddles especially.
Poor Wonder Woman. I remember a time in Superman in the 2000's when she and Superman got stuck in another time compressed dimension battling for 200 years. This is just another Tuesday for her.
Chris, that intro... looked like something else... on another note, your lighting and the film quality looks great!!! Thanks for the video, I loved it!
The very high quality of your videos is what makes this channel stand out from the crowd. Your channel is the standard for excellence in your field. Please endeavor to maintain the high standard you have set for yourself, even if it means you only make one video a month.
The first three arcs are what got me back into reading comics.The part in the first issue where he asks Alfred if his parents would be proud of him was so good. I bailed right before the wedding. It felt like there was this huge stretch after The War of Jokes and Riddles where Tom King was just spinning his wheels. It sounds like he managed to stick the landing which is good but buying issue to issue was such a mistake on my part.
Pros of the run for me: First few arcs actually told measured and logical stories, the Brave and the Mold issue, the wedding lead-up including Date Night, the wedding issue itself.
Sins of the run for me: repetition, Bane, logic completely getting left behind, suicide, the failed wedding that didn't get cleaned up well, more repetition of issues where Batman punched his entire rogues gallery, the abominable treatment of the Gotham Girl storyline, Alfred, shooting Dick Grayson for no good reason, Bane, Bane, Bane, more dream sequences, using poetry and songs repetitively.
For clarification, Nightwing was not Tom King's call, but Dan Didio's.
I haven't read comics in 10+ years and this run sounds incredible. Thanks so much for the depth and detail, this is a great channel.
I loved Vision and Mister Miracle, but overall King's Batman run was really frustrating for me as a lifelong reader. I always appreciate your thoughtful enthusiasm. Thanks again for consistently great content.
yknow...i haven't been consistent on comic tropes but every time i come back, the intros get better
I can see Riddler becoming obsessed with the riddle of 'why can't Joker laugh anymore'. His character was always one of narcissism and obsession.
It does seem off however that he is trying to make Joker laugh instead of finding out why he won't laugh though.
King's run was one of the reasons I stopped collecting Batman after almost 30 years. It was a mess but I got through it hoping the next writer would be better. And then we got Tynion IV, and I was out the door for good.
Appreciate your research, knowledge and well articulated review. Great work as always!
this is my favorite TH-cam channel. your videos are so great and consistent and I have never seen a comic book channel like yours. keep up the stellar work!!!!!!!
I just have to say, your videos are very entertaining. Your passion for the subject matter really comes through, and that means just about everything. Plus, your personality and sense of humor make for a unique take on things, and are very engaging. I really enjoy watching your channel, and keep up the good work. I am proud to be a subscriber, and will further my support as soon as I can. But for now, may I offer a very heartfelt "thank you".
Tom King's run was so bloated and disappointing. It's really a shame, because he is a great writer.
I think he should've been given a shorter run. He's shown in his one shots-like the Batman Annual a few weeks back-that he does well with a tight story and brief length.
He asked for it...
@Warrior Robotics Curious, where were the red flags? Did he have previous long runs that went poorly or are you saying during the Batman run the editor should've made a change?
@Warrior Robotics So here I would argue with you. King had successful year long runs on Mister Miracle and The Vision so it's logical to think he can do more. If during his runs on those series he'd teetered off at the end then it would make sense not to give him a longer run, but since he succeeded it makes sense to give him more.
If someone does a job well they usually get a promotion. If you win a make you take on a tougher opponent. So King succeeded with 12 issues and got a longer run. Plus ex-CIA, that had to carry a lot of weight considering the character.
@Warrior Robotics I agree with you that maybe they should've offered a shorter run, say 36 issues, seen how it went and extended at some point if warranted, but also consider that he was a hot writer with successful runs and they may have thought locking him up in a long term contract before someone else does, was a good move. It happens in sports a lot.
@Warrior Robotics Tom King is a better writer when You have a good editor telling him "No".
King has a better Sense Of Pacing and storytelling when he has a short amount Of issues. But when You let him TALK for more time he gets off-the rails
I honestly just enjoyed how human they made Bruce feel throughout this. Along with how heavily atmospheric certain issues are. Absolutely loved the self-retroflective fear arc.
Thanks for giving Lee Weeks some love. I’ve thought he is a great artist since his Daredevil days.
I think King sometimes imposes tenuous motivations on characters in order to support scenarios that are really cool but ultimately feel unearned.
Seriously one of my most prized YT channels.... The intros you do are the absolute best!!!
Pretty good bane impression. love the episodes Chris, keep up the great work.
I don't know about you all but i thought "I am Bane" and Kite Man story arcs were fucking masterpieces
Wait, hold up, time out. Mister Freeze was on trial and in danger of getting the DEATH PENALTY, okay... So uh, how come they never thought about doing that to the Joker?
My guess would be because Joker is clinically insane. But I thought Freeze was too.
@@mariod1547 The Joker is estimated, in-universe, to have a kill count of over 2 000. With that number of kills, clinically insane or not, any self-respecting court of law in any country would have put him to death a very long time ago.
@@aderemiporsche He was gonna get put down in one arc in the 90's but for a murder he didn't commit suprisingly but Batman saved him. In another 90's arc, Ra's Al Ghul killed him but Batman used the Lazarus pit to resurrect him for info. Jason Todd legitimately has a valid reason to hate Bruce in Under the hood.
@@Noname-ut1ye It’s because DC knows that killing Joker means no more Batman stories to tell.
Plot armor, really. How come an angry mob didn't kill the joker ? How come a cop didn't execute the joker ?
The thing I like about King is the same as what I like about Scott Snyder or Grant Morrison, namely that he always swings for the fences. He doesn’t always hit and his hits don’t always become home runs, but the fact that he swings with all he’s got every time regardless is admirable.
The increased quality is worth the wait. That was a great break down.
This is definitely the best and most comprehensive channel on comic tropes, history, and creators I have ever seen. Always look forward to your videos, Chris.
Tom king REWRITING his stories on twitter, saying "should've included this or this or that, sorry"
Lol
Tom King blew it when he had Catwoman chicken out of the wedding. When reached for comment, Catwoman said,
"...I'm not bad, I'm just written that way.."
Tom King's Vision is still one of my favorites. I also like Miracle Man (cause I like anything with the New Gods), but I'm not too proud to admit that I found it difficult to read.
I'd argue and say that the I Am Trilogy are the stronger arcs
It should be noted that the Ric Grayson affair was never intended to be the debacle it was. King wanted it to have a minimal effect on outside books, suggesting Tim Drake take over as Nightwing while Dick went through rehab. DiDio choosing Lobdell's pitch for Ric Grayson threw all the Nightwing Adjacent books off track, such as Titans where he had just taken over as leader for the New Justice Relaunch, to King's run where he wasn't able to use Dick for City of Bane or Batman/Catwoman, and the main Nightwing book, of course, which led to Benjamin Percy (not Seeley) to leave for Marvel full-time.
Dan DiDio: He sure hates Nightwing!
King hates nightwing. Why drag in a character to be shot in a comic where we are told that batman who the death was supposed to affect has never similed or had a moment of happiness since the night his folks died? if batman was never happy in all the years he spent bringing up Dick that he never similed even once in all those years then that means that Batman never cared for Dick so Dick getting shot shouldn't affect him. Dick also was pointless in the run to build up a foundation to the scene. After he was shot Batman got a bit smashy smash and that's it. This is his son. But he spends months tantruming and depressed because he was dumped by a woman who has dumped you lots of times before. If Bane wanted to break the Bat he should have shot Selina.
It was a cheap shot.
This has got to be in the top 5 episodes of Comic tropes of all time.
Always enjoy the content. That intro though has to be one of my favorite ones so far. King's run on Batman had more lows, than it did highs imo. Then after that whole Bat wedding debacle was the icing on the cake that Batman should be handed over to someone who understands the Bat, compared to King's run.
King's run would have been Miles better had his run ended onnthe Wedding with The cliffhanger Of Bane manipulating his life and now that he is at his happiest, he is ready to strike.
And left The Run on hands Of Tom Taylor or Tynion or Tomasi who know How to write Batman as a family man. Even If King becomes co-writer.
Well the wedding thing was probably more and editorial decision
I've watched comics reviews and analyses by different TH-camrs but yours are clearly the best. Thank you for another great vid.
I recently reread King’s run and enjoyed it. I think it reads a lot better in trades than bi-weekly issues
I enjoy and truly appreciate what you do. If it takes longer than a week, that's fine! Life happens. Thanks for this newest episode. I mostly listen while I'm moving around the house, so everybody in my house gets to know about the newest tropes.
This run has a magnificent little story about Bats and Swamp Thing with art by Gerads, reminded me of Mr. Miracle
I felt kind of mixed about it. It had some good parts but some parts I couldn’t stand. I did not like most of the bane stuff and I HATED all the Thomas stuff (except for the grim fairy tale)
Can you do a video on Jonathan Hickman next?
But about What? Hickman's maxi run on Avengers? Or his story starting in Fantastic Four and Ending on Secret Wars 2015?
Yes?
East of West!!!
Hickman is the best
Two years after this video and Tom King (along with Tom Taylor) remains one of the top 3 comic writers, right now
I am really digging the recent Tom King stuff. Strange Adventures and this new one, Human Target are mysteries with a C-List characters. My favorite Tom King stuff so far. Keep up the great work!
Strange Adventures is excellent. If you can get past an alternate take on the character.
4:07 the design of this gun is literally a trace of the charge rifle from titanfall
I will say I've enjoyed King's run in more of a collected editions instead of reading it in singles. Singles was brutal with some of the arcs.
This video has the single best Comic Tropes intro. Hands down.
Really enjoyed this run personally and it's the first entire run of TPB I have bought in a while. Its hit and miss of course but it's so entertaining all the way through.
Oh hi! Happy holidays & great to have you back friend! Great ep in store methinks
I remember Batman/Catwoman’s wedding happening around the same time as the weddings in X-Men. I think that’s why it was controversial.
Hey Chris,
Genuinely love your videos. I especially love the longer videos that go into more detail about what you like and dislike about a particular comic book run. Just wanted to say I appreciate you putting quality ahead of quantity.
Cheers!
My main issue with King’s run is how self indulgent it is. It is always so heavy handed in its take on all of the characters. The characters are almost become caricatures of themselves, becoming slaves to the themes Tom King is insistent on exploring.
❤’
His whole comics career is probably a psyop
Man! I love your videos.
I miss the "Oh, hi! You caught me..." intros
I think many thing's could be argued, but Tom King certainly had a consistent and steady hand with Batman that paid off with a long, coherent arc, which is actually pretty uncommon! Just I think the payoff depends on how much we are able to subscribe to his story telling style, poetic repetition and rambling that could only ever work in a comic book format and the idea that Trauma is the mother of all development. The only issue is I kinda feel that's the only story he really knows how to tell, great with Batman, but once we understand how he tells stories, we see it in everything he writes.
A very enjoyable recap! Thank you comictropes!
I like some parts of it like the kiteman story, gotham girl, duke, the stuff with superman, the wonderwoman story, the freeze trial and the booster gold stuff, but I felt like some of the stories feel like they drag on for faaarr too long. But at least they haven't been as infuriating to read as the BMD.
Great video, thanks!
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Batman and Catwoman are my OTP, they have been for forever, so their marriage arc was everything I always wanted to see, it was probably the closest I'll ever get to see an ending for The Caped Crusader, but of course the publishers I mean the fates cannot ever let Batman just retire because he makes too much money for the compan-I MEAN Gotham City needs him despite the number heroes moving into town...
Highs: BEFORE the wedding and City of Bane
Lows: The wedding and City of Bane.
Started out strong and could not stick the landing
gotta say i'm glad kings run is ending soon and dc is actually giving tynion a part in the main bat book
city of bane especially was a complete shitshow while detective comics was consistently great all throughout
It only has left King's miniseries Of Catwoman and Batman. After that, King is finally out
To you.*
@@Blackninja93 *To Many*
@@ianr.navahuber2195 that good
I entirely agree
Tom King is a favorite contemporary of mine. Loved hearing your thoughts.
Tom King focused more on Batman's humanity, we saw him lose it and almost killed someone, we saw him fall in love, make mistakes and miscalculations, we actually saw him as a human in this run compared to other runs where he is depicted almost like a god, super smart, everything he does is calculated and never makes any mistake.
people forget, Batman is a perfect warrior but he's also a human being. we are seeing the weight of his role, being Batman is a choice. and that has its consequences
I know im asking randomly but does someone know of a trick to get back into an Instagram account??
I was stupid lost the account password. I would appreciate any tips you can give me
@Yael Hunter instablaster :)
@Roy Marley thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im trying it out atm.
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@Roy Marley It did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. Im so happy!
Thank you so much, you saved my account!
Sales were consistent? In February Batman they were shipping 90,000 units, by October it's 60,000. A 33% drop is pretty significant. A lot of people were pretty upset over the bait and switch wedding and you pointed out crap like shooting Nightwing in the head as well as overly long runs like the nightmare story hurt King's run. And you pointed out the repetitious dialogue. Maybe King's style simply doesn't work over long periods, or maybe editors should have kept better control over his excesses.
Thomas Stockel The sales rebounded.
ComicTropes that doesn’t make it consistent. Consistent would be no drop. Any drop is inconsistent
@@ComicTropes but not to King's original numbers, which were over a hundred thousand. And the rebound didn't last. Look at these numbers for issues sold:
78 81,000
79 61,000
80 62,000
81 60,000
82 71,000
83 60,000
This is supposed to be the grand finale and people are just...tired of King's material by this point. I think it was the bait and switch wedding, which wasn't helped by the fact something similar happened in X-Men Gold. People like to see the tiniest bit of joy come into the lives of heroes. When it's non-stop angst people just get exhausted. I feel bad for King and his mental health issues, but people don't want to pay for what seems to be his working out his problems through his work, projecting his mental trauma on the characters he is entrusted with.
I really dont like Mikel Janins work because he has the same 3d character model for everyone and it just looks dull.
Tracing 3d models is lame
Oh yes!
Agreed
THANK YOU! someone said it. he makes all of them look like discount tom cruise and he can't draw kids.
I liked it early on, but it got tiring as the story got worse.
You gotta bring back this catchy tune to the intro man
I'm surprised Vision was 12 issues. Felt like it was a lot shorter.
I agree. Even though it was a “small” story, it felt like it was moving at a breakneck pace.
Great summary, I love it and it was very informative. I used to own a shirt like that, damn, I miss it.
King's Miracle Man was such a fantastic run. Have to say this was a really great video. Always been a fan of the longer videos, but understandably that would be harder to produce on a weekly basis. Having to wait an extra might suck, but when the videos are this good it's worth the wait! Keep up the great work and thanks for all the excellent content this year!
It was fantastic... for six issues
Love this video, one of your best 👍🏼will read those batman stories, some stuff seems very interesting for me
Maybe his time with the CIA got Tom interested in the effect of trauma on personality. Inflicting traumaa on people so they become compliant is a big part of CIA operations
Honestly... The wedding just fucking ruined this run for me.
I really liked how King built up their romance, and to have that payoff was just so frustrating on so many levels.