How Marvel Comics' Editors Ruined Hobgoblin
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In 1982, the Hobgoblin appeared in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man #238. Powerful, cunning, and mysterious, this new villain was a hit with readers. But a series of problems between the writers and the editors led to his secret identity's reveal landing with a thud. This episode walks through the appearances of Hobgoblin as well as what was happening behind the scenes with creators including Roger Stern, John Romita, Jr., Tom DeFalco, Danny Fingeroth, Jim Owsley (Christopher Priest), Ron Frenz, Peter David, and more. It's a tragic tale involving a lack of trust that hopefully we can all learn from. - บันเทิง
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The fact that DeFalco lied and said Ned Leeds was the Hobgoblin only to be fired _immediately_ so they were stuck with the _wrong plotline_ is hilarious to me.
Lmao
Marvel didn’t fire De Falco until 1994.
@@TheRealCaptainFreedom fired from the spider man series
@@TheRealCaptainFreedom Ok captain syntax. Priest is still a misbegotten son of a morlock.
The real Hobgoblin was the friends we made along the way.
Now where does the movie Hobgoblins fit into this story?
No one's ever really Hobgoblin.
This guy gets it
Or rather, the friends we lost along the way
lol
One minor quibble: Ned Leeds is never shown as being the Hobgoblin in "Spider-Man Versus Wolverine". (At least not in the original printings; maybe its been modified on Marvel NOW). Peter returns to his hotel room to find Ned, in civilian clothes, tied to a chair with his throat slit. The implication in the issue was that Ned had been killed by the bad guys he was investigating.
Correct. Owsley had nothing to do with ASM #289's Hobgoblin reveal as he had already been fired as Spider-Man editor and replaced by Jim Salicrup. Owsley killed Ned in SMvW to screw up what he believed Tom Defalco had planned and insert his own candidate --- the assassin Foreigner who Peter David had introduced in Spectacular Spider-Man. When Owsley approached Peter David to write The Foreigner as Hobby reveal, David argued that it made no sense but Owsley told him that was how it was going to be. When Owsley was fired and David was tasked by Jim Salicrup to write the reveal, David decided to go back to what he thought DeFalco had planned and reconcile it with SMvW.
He killed him off before the reveal, to screw up Defalco
Yeah… Why would the merc goons take off his costume and dress him in civvies after killing him?
@@____________838 because they were perverts, they want to use the custume for perverted events
@@bfan001 Wait, so are all of the details in this video wrong? After watching the video and reading your comment I now have no clear understanding of what happened.
Having Kingsley as the Hobgoblin is a perfectly acceptable solution for the mystery, but the whole identical brother who isn't a twin is a very Silver Age bit of silliness, and I can see why people didn't like Stern's idea. Also, as you mentioned, how does a fashion guy manages to achieve a chemical miracle like changing the Goblin formula so that it doesn't make the user insane, but retains every benefit it brings?
Aside from that... yeah, going for an extended mystery in comics like this is very easily screwed up by the roll-out of writers that books can have. It also seems like Roger Stern didn't lay significant clues for the Hobgoblin's identity before he left the book, which in turn easily allows another writer to write someone else as the Hobgoblin.
It's fine. They just needed to make it a twin. Such a small change.
And make sure the twin is introduced.
Kingsley starting out as a fashion designer who only bought a perfume company was a bit of a mistake. For him to literally fix a major side effect of Norman Osborn's Goblin serum he needed to be not Just a fresh set of eyes looking at the formula but well versed in chemistry himself. That's why I really liked the Spectacular Spider-man Cartoon teasing Kingsley as a Perfume magnate with an interesting in buying the Rhino armor secrets *First* To give him that chemistry background.
Also i never got the impression he was identical, just very similar. Huh I thought he'd been introduced earlier.
A fashion guy could afford the people who can bring about a chemical miracle and then off them at least.
@@PosthumanHeresy When narrating to himself in private he says he fixed it himself. Offing the actual experts and then Norman's notes getting burned would probably together have covered why there aren't a ton of class ten powers running around thanks to the perfected serum. The loss of Norman's notes alone didn't make sense for me there.
@@DIEGhostfish I totally agree. With him fixing it himself, it certainly makes _less_ sense, although one could do the typical comic book thing of "he was so successful in life beforehand because his brain is like a damn sponge and he was smart enough to understand all the stuff he read when he began reading Osborn's journals, so GG could have probably fixed it himself in about two months if he had the time, energy, patience, and desire". The best way I can excuse it is just saying he was smart enough to solve the problems, but most of the work was already done for him.
Wow, I knew Hobgoblin's backstory was a mess due to several different writers all having opposing ideas for the character but I never realized it was this bad. It sucks that people had to be so petty and intentionally tried to ruin each others' work.
Yeah, back then I was just a kid reading Spidey comics and I really liked the idea of Richard Fisk as The Rose, trying to be a better criminal to take down his father and teaming with Hobgoblin, who was a tactical genius and merciless while also being a total wild card whose identity was unknown.
Say what you will about DC Comics in the 1980s, but the editorial reins were TIGHT and disciplined. No confusion. Its probably why I mostly brought DC back then until I expanded my lists in the '90s
@@juniorjames7076 A lot of great comic books. From Morrison's JLA through Robinson's Starman to entire Vertigo imprint.
"It sucks that -people- one prick had to be so petty and intentionally tried to ruin -each- others' work".
There, fixed that for you ;)
@@LoboPreto idk if im jus having a slow moment cuz it is like 3 am but that sentence doesnt make sense to me
Has no one informed him that his camera has been out of focus for some time? What a cruel fanbase.
Well, I guess at this point it might be an internal joke of the channel 🤣
He's lost so much weight that his camera can't find him anymore.
It looks more like a resolution issue than a focus issue. Maybe his HiDef camera broke. Who knows?
I thought it was my eyesight
i thought it was an artistic move
Man, this brings back memories. Stern's Spider-Man was a couple of years after I first got into comics. But the Hobgoblin story hooked me for sure. I'm a HUGE fan of Stern's Avengers also.
Likewise. I still remember the Flash Thompson reveal as a kid. That Hobglobin arc was one for the books!!
I've just met the Rod Kingsley and Phil Urich one in the Slott era
Roger was a great writer on ASM and did an awesome job on the Avengers! He could do no wrong!
th-cam.com/video/9ExCG1GJku4/w-d-xo.html
Two of the best ever runs! My God that Avengers run was amazing!
One of the biggest tragedies behind the cancellation of The Spectacular Spider-Man (the show) was that it seemed to be doing a more faithful version of the Hobgoblin, already setting up Roderick, and even Daniel in a more subtle manner. This could've been the Hobgoblin's big break in other media, especially since the 90's show ended up having him job to Green Goblin just because the showrunner didn't care about the character.
Yeah that's one of the big disappointments for me
I never forgive Disney for making Sony cancelled spectacular Spider-Man fr
show was okay but the side characters could’ve been done better and do without the love square
@@Jidom_101I mean that’s just how Spider-Man comics and stories are to be fair, basically a soap opera sometimes, Liz and Peter is pretty new to my knowledge tho I’m terms of relationships
Considering it was based on Ultimate I'd love if Harry was Hobgoblin instead
The Tale of the Hobgoblin is a cautionary tale of editor interference that can effect a great idea and become the catalyst of the Clone Saga!
And interestingly Tom DeFalco is involved behind the scenes in both stories.
Clone saga started decent but it turned into a huge mess.
Clone Saga and the way they killed off Jericho in DC's Titans were the two main reasons I stopped collecting comics.
The tale of the hobgoblin didn’t end until after the clone saga tho
@@stevemichael652 technically it ended when Green Goblin returned and Ben Reily took one for the team!
A sad and surprisingly common trope in the comic industry is a major character reveal that ends up being changed by editorial interference. The faith that publishers have in writers in this section is disappointing
Say what you will about DC Comics in the 1980s, but the editorial reins were TIGHT and disciplined. No confusion. Its probably why I mostly brought DC back then until I expanded my lists in the '90s
@@juniorjames7076 Not directly due to editorial interference, but DC botched the reveal of Monarch for Armageddon 2001 from not having tight enough reins.
@@jamesdlin7 True, by the late 90s and early 2000s DC became trash as well. I walked away from the major publishers around that time and started buying independent and European graphic novels exclusively.
I only have faith for no more.
What?
This video only scratches the surface of the behind-the-scenes problems at Marvel in 86-87. Their parent company had been liquidated by a hostile takeover, and the pressure was on to make Marvel look attractive to a new buyer. Editor-in-chief Jim Shooter was devoting most of his time to the ultimately unsuccessful "New Universe" line. Deadlines were slipping.
I always did find Hobgoblin to be an interesting villain. Even though he wasn't as powerful as the Green Goblin, he was still more than capable of giving Spider-Man a tough time in many encounters.
I always thought his costume was cooler too.
I loved his horned glider.
This probably isn't still the case but in the comics of the time I think I recall it being said that Hobgoblin's improved goblin formula made him stronger than his predecessor? Could be wrong.
Kingsley starting out as a fashion designer who only bought a perfume company was a bit of a mistake. For him to literally fix a major side effect of Norman Osborn's Goblin serum he needed to be not Just a fresh set of eyes looking at the formula but well versed in chemistry himself. That's why I really liked the Spectacular Spider-man Cartoon teasing Kingsley as a Perfume magnate with an interesting in buying the Rhino armor secrets *First* To give him that chemistry background.
I think the popularity might have been from the spider man animated series bringing him in first instead of green goblin.
Marvel has a history of there being office mismanagement affecting comic storylines. Particularly with Spider-man. There's this Hobgoblin fiasco, The Clone Saga was a similar mess due to editor/writer B.S. and I'm pretty sure Nick Spencer cut his 'Kindred Saga' short due to differences with management.
Honestly the end issues of Sinister War felt like they were ghost written by someone else. As much as I appreciate Sins Past being retconned, the entire thing moving from something wrong with Peter's soul to what it went to did not make sense. And it also took away any reason why Kindred would be mad at Peter.
@@anubhavkumarcits so clear Spencer planned it as an OMD retcon/revelation, but editorial forced him to make it Sins Past. The whole "its not Harry, but Harry possessing Gabriel and Sarah" felt so convoluted
"I already drew it," is some strong Ozymandias energy.
"I already drew it 35 minutes ago."
Making Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin always made me mad and it never fit with the hints of the character. There wasn't an internet around at the time so there didn't appear to be an uproar over it, but I was absolutely pissed.
I will admit I was getting annoyed with them dragging out the identity too. I am with other's... Fisk's son would have been the best choice.
I don't know whether you've seen No Way Home yet, but (no spoilers) there's a pretty fun reference to this that made me chuckle.
@@BretGammons Not yet, but I will keep an eye for it when I do see it. Thanks for the heads up!
@@makeitthrough_ Keep them as partners but reverse who's in which mask eh? I think I kinda like that.
In the video from approx the 8-8:30 mark the man in the coma in the hospital in bamdages is shown at the same time that peter has a dinner with Betty and Ned Leeds.
@@juliusfrauenglass2411 yeah but that’s Lefty isn’t it, not Ned
The funny thing about all of this is decades later, I'm half expecting Peters best friend in the MCU to become the Hob Goblin somehow. I'd be funny.
I remember watching Harry in the original Spiderman trilogy and expecting him to become Hob Goblin. Gotta watch out for those best friends.
I wonder why they never used Hobgoblin for Spider-Man 3, New Goblin was just dumb
The thing was that when Marvel decided to clear Ned Leeds of being the Hobgoblin was that they ultimately identified someone I never thought could possibly be on the list of suspects (no spoilers). As you said, Roger Stern wasn't able to really set up his suspect AS a suspect. In the end, he had become a minor character, so easily forgotten, that even when they pulled the "evil twin" twist, you couldn't believe it.
And it was SO badly handled that Marvel hasn't been able to use the character since. I am convinced that the REAL reason they had to bring the original Green Goblin back was because they had so screwed up the Hobgoblin (AND the freaking Clone Saga, of course)!
When Marvel finally revealed the Hobgoblin's "identity," all I could think of -- even THEN -- was how Marvel worked so hard to make Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin. They did everything but point a laser light in his direction in every scene. And then they killed him off in Spider-Man vs Wolverine to throw off any suspicions. And when Kingpin found out about Leeds' killing (several months AFTER SMvW), he wasn't happy, and he muttered to himself, "Well, if I could figure it out, he [the Foreigner, who sent the assassins who killed Leeds] could. After all, it was SO obvious!"
Yeah. And then they had to doubletalk it back, making the Kingpin come off as an idiot. VERY badly handled.
Uh? Dan Slott used Hobgoblin a lot during his run.
They have used the character he became demogoblin
@@hugodacosta6864 Actually, I forgot about that run. Thanks for the reminder.
@@thedarkangel120407 Not for long, right? I seem to remember one major story arc, and then they destroyed Demogoblin. I might be misremembering this as well, though.
@@hugodacosta6864 Dan Slott verdion of Hobgoblin was like 20 years after the fact and it was a different person taking on the identity, basically reversing the origin of original Hobgoblin
He should have just been Fisk's son I feel. It lines up nicely and would make it so that its a matter of a son trying to steal his father's crown. Even better would be when Fisk finds out and it becomes a matter of personal pride that he needs to show his son there are consequences to his actions. You could even use it to spark what is effectively a crime kingpin civil war that the heroes of New York need to deal with.
This video is my introduction to the Hobgoblin arc but I feel that it being Richard would have worked well too. It would certainly give some weight to the bit where Wilson Fisk saves Spidermans live in rereads.
The problem is that in the early stories the Hobgoblin shows no interest in the Kingpin whatsoever beyond a desire to avoid a confrontation (he'd forgotten Fisk is a member of the club he was doing his blackmailing at). The Priest retcon about Ned Leeds and Richard Fisk working to bring down the Kingpin never fitted well with what Stern had actually written at the time.
It's possible that a Richard Fisk reveal could have worked - but it really needed the character to be current. He hadn't been in the Spider-Man books (under his own identity) for a decade before he was revealed as the Rose - reportedly DeFalco's attempts to re-establish the character were edited out by Priest which added to the mess.
@@timrollpickering Fair enough really. I just think if we were throwing retcons at the wall, that feels like the strongest one.
Also, it wouldn't have been the first time Richard took another identity; he was introduced disguised as Schemer, back in the Lee-Romita Sr's years. I don't know if Richard's personality fits the Hobgobling though. Still, aside from who was the Hobgoblin, another big flaw, as Chris mentions, was how his identity was revealed. It was completely anti-climatic. I like the miniseries Hobgoblin Lives and it is a well done retcon, where Roger Stern really takes full advantage of many thing that transpired between his run in ASM with John Romita Jr and the miniseries where he finally put an end to the Hobgoblin's mystery.
I personally think Fisk as Hobgoblin and Kingsley as The Rose fits *perfectly*. Rose fits Kingsley like a glove for an assortment of reasons (including the Belladonna link!) but for Fisk...
* He has the criminal connections Hobgoblin has - more than Kingsley should have at any rate!
* Richard makes sense with the 'bring shame to my family' line. And his risk of being unmasked puts Vanessa at risk, whereas his being unmasked puts him at risk of Kingpin's wrath!
* As Schemer, Richard already showed he could tailor a villain outfit and also tinker with gimmicks. He would have had the capacity to learn under Kingpin.
* Fisk could have obtained the same Winkler machine that the Kingpin used to brainwash Henchmen into being fake Hobgoblins. Seeing as Kingpin first introduced it, it makes more sense for Richard to have it than the unconnected Kingsley to do so.
* Hobgoblin doesn't show any particular interest in one major person - the fact that Kingpin is excluded from his attentions until he saves Spider-Man is telling.
* Richard is one very strong potential who was never seen with Hobgoblin in person. For it to be anybody else at the club, the Hobgoblin needed a twin or duplicate... Fisk makes the story 'fairer', and less tropey. If Kingsley is the Rose it plays better to this as well as we see Kingsley working for Hobgoblin. This makes sense if he is also Rose.
Clues that don't fit:
* How would Richard Fisk know Mary Jane? (This suits Kingsley much better)
* Richard has always been more interested in revenge against the Kingpin or standing up to his Dad, which doesn't suit early Hobgoblin motivation (and actually doesn't fit with him even when he is actually openly against Kingpin!).
* The 'twin brother' and 'ghod' clues for Kingsley are left untouched with no explanation.
* There are other clues that indicate Ned Leeds, instead of Fisk or Kingsley but these were retconned into Hobgoblin Lives.
But this would be a better choice than Kingsley post Stern, even if Kingsley was Stern's intended.
The point of this is, Owsley managed to ruin it. I have no doubt DeFalco could have finished this in a satisfactory way. But everything I hear about Owsley as an editor makes me think he was a passive aggressive narcissist. DeFalco, on the other hand, everybody always seems to say nice things.
Hobgoblin's fall is a master class in how too many cooks can spoil the soup! Especially when one is a fry cook rather than a chef.
Growing up in that Hobgoblin era, Hobgoblin captured my friend's and my own imaginations! Green Goblin was just this cool villain you could occasionally see in a reprint book. He was widely considered to be Spidey's arch-enemy, but he had been dead for years. To have this master villain show up and take up the mantle fascinated us! Everyone wanted to be the first one to get to the drug store spinner rack to see if Hobgoblin appeared in an issue and if he would be revealed! Then the black costume became a thing and we started getting villains like the Rose and Jack o' Lantern showing up in the book and we all kind of lost interest. When they did that next arc between #259-261, I think I was the only one still reading Spidey and I was done after it came to nothing again. By the time of the "Flash Thompson reveal", I flipped through the book in the store and decided not to waste my money. And the "Ned Leed's Reveal"? When that one happened, I was shocked to see Ned dead in Spider-Man/Wolverine, since he was a pretty big minor character over the years and it seemed like a cheap death. But Ned as the Hobgoblin in Spidey #289? Just felt like another red herring.
I know it's a difficult thing to do, but even in the best circumstances, you can't let a mystery go on and on forever. If it's a year or so, just about any reveal will be cool. You let it drag into two or three years, it had better be something major! And if it's going on five years or longer, you can rest assured nobody cares anymore. Christopher Priest did a lot of damage to the story, which he'll somewhat admit. But having Roger Stern leave the book before the reveal was definitely more damaging. Fingeroth should have sat him down and worked something out rather than have him just leave. Danny seems to have that mindset that a lot of bosses have..."Anyone can be replaced." Yes, but not effectively. Heck, I recently reported to my own job that I was giving notice because a human resources person cursed me out. And rather than just say: "See you later!", the boss sat me down, got to the root of the problem, and worked it out. And I'm still at my job. And probably more productive since I saw they place some importance on my job. Fingeroth just didn't seem to have that kind of sense. Perhaps he thought Stern didn't really HAVE a plan for Hobgoblin and was just milking it until it ran dry. But that is when you sit down and work out the story so the editor AND the other staff know what has been set-up. As an editor, you might have to nix Stern's choice if it's a character someone else plans to use or if it is someone that the ripple effect could cause major changes down the road. Spider-Man traditionally has a large cast to interact with, so you might not want to reveal a mainstay is the big villain. So, the editor should have been asking questions from Day One. And yeah, that wasn't Fingeroth. Hobgoblin's story is just kind of a How-Not-To-Do a character arc in retrospect.
All things considered, though, those issues from Amazing Spider-Man #238-251 enthralled my small town! And I would guess that was kind of across the board. As to my opinion, Roger Stern's idea of Kingsley was probably a good one. He would have the money to do all that he did. And as a backstory progressed, motivation could have gotten interesting. A shame it didn't get to play out.
I think they gave the job to the dishwasher.
Did you read the original clone saga?
The horror.
The horror.
@@dionmcgee5610 The Clone Saga was one of the things that got me out of Spider-Man back in the day. I've been reading it again lately, but, lo and behold! Ben Reilly is back! Can't get away from that garbage. I would much rather just see some Spidey fighting villain one-offs for a while rather than this constant jumping from clones to Carnage to clones. You would think some writers would just have some good one-shot stories under their hat so we could get a break from constant events. But apparently they don't work at Marvel.
@@TheJohno95 I've thought something like that about the Spidey movies. Because we're dealing with movies, not comics, the thought process seems to be that every film has to be an event. To my thinking, if every film is an event, then the concept of event loses its meaning.
I'd like to see a Spidey movie that was just him and a villain (molten man, the Prowler, Scorpion- someone with a good costume) without all that angst and the end of the world scenario making everything grim and serious. Does MJ or A
@@dionmcgee5610 I feel like every Marvel movie is a season premiere of a tv show or a season finale. They definitely seem like they're trying to writer toward a tv season. The problem is that there IS no season...Just big events.
@@TheJohno95 Writing that last comment earlier and the screen went flying away.
Apparently it posted- unfinished.
My only real complaint with the Spidey movies is that each movie has to be a life altering event for PP.
The demand for that sort of (annoying) drama in each movie, I'm sure led to the ridiculous twist iin Spider-man 3 where it turns out the Sandman killed Uncle Ben, not Peter Stormare.
What the ?#*%!!?
Why? So PP can have a life affirming moment and the movie can (they believe-maybe) transcend the genre.
I like the genre. There's no need to transcend anything.
They should do what they didn't do for the last Star Wars trilogy- have a gameplan that resolves itself in the 3rd movie. That way we get 2 movies that are good old fashioned Marvel comic mayhem and the final film can be the transcendent emotional package. .it'll pack more of a walliop if we're not reaching for an emotional high every time.
They should stop killing off important charactors from the comics and (most importantly) EVERY VILLAIN DOESN'T NEED TO DISCOVER SPIDER-MAN'S SECRET IDENTITY!
More of that "end of the world" dramatic overreach.
Man, at the time, I imagine the reader's patience being screwed by the Marvel editors teasing and screwing up the Hobgoblin identity and mystery, thanks to Roger Stern that came back to finish his story, but I mean, he came back almost 20 years later to finish his story. Great video!
A lot of inconsistencies and a lack of fun drove me away from Spider-man books at some point. It was Hobgoblin Lives that brought me back to the webhead. There was a lot of behind the scene vindictive behavior revolving around the bigger sellers for Marvel in the mid to late 80s. It's wild hearing the reasons behind our childhood comic story confusions turning out to just being one or two persons' ego forcing a change based on spite.
Keep up the good work.
In Priest's defense, Spider-Man Vs Wolverine is an outstanding book! (With a terrible title...) Oddly, teaming up these two served well to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of both, and seeing Spider-Man out of his element in a Cold War KGB thriller challenged the character in ways I don't feel many others have replicated. I had no idea the writer was so young!
Thanks for the deep dive! I knew a lot of this, but also had a lot of inaccurate information. The full story is excessively complicated but equally fascinating. Imagine being 22 and getting asked to edit Spider-Man...
Oh it's a great story. The big problem is that there was no real need within the story itself to kill off Ned - any random Bugle reporter could have fulfilled that role. And so it became notorious for its contributions to the continuity mess rather than its own merits.
Oh, I enjoyed Spider-Man vs Wolverine - I thought it was a great story even despite the complications required by the Ned Leeds matter.
Marvel then did one of the best What If stories about what if Spidey stayed in East Germany afterwards (something to do with the sister of Wolverine's friend) and eventually became a black ops operative with Wolverine. It demonstrates that Spidey never really used his abilities to their greatest potential. In this story, he does.
@@timrollpickering I 100% agree, and if you're going to kill off a fairly major or even regular character, it needs to be in the series itself, not a separate special. If you want to kill off Ned Leeds or any regular character then tell the same Spider-Man/Wolverine story in one of the regular monthly series for Spider-Man, where you can feel it has more of an impact. Even then though it should be a longer running villain story line. Like Gwen being killed by The Green Goblin rather than in some new story with a one off villain.
@@Logan_Baron I like the idea of doing something important in a "special". It gives the sense that there is an actual reason for the book to exist in the first place. Marvel Annuals were once a fun doublesized story and then in the tail end of the 80s they seemed to take on more of a house cleaning where a bunch of random ideas that weren't fleshed out but were thrown together to fill a book, using artists that basically seemed like they were "trying out" and doing a poor job of it. Then tack on a story that flows through all the annuals in order to try and sucker people with a half baked cross over (Evolutionary War 1988, Atlantis Attacks 1989) Poor quality in large portions.
Priest is a hell of a writer, top talent but yeah he was pretty young
What a complete fustercluck. It's a shame, as I adore the idea of having a supervillain with a secret identity.
Roger: “I’m Hobgoblin!”
Ned: “I’m Hobgoblin!”
Spider-Man: “So, whose the real Hobgoblin?”
Both: “I am!”
roger who?
Wow, I totally remember reading this run as a kid when it came out. I thought the reveal of the Hobgoblin's identity was a bit weak, too. Thanks for bringing back a memory of a simpler time, when my friends and I would head into town to our favorite shop and read all our new comics on the train on the way home. To think back on how much we complained when the price rose from 60 to 75 cents - LOL !!
Hobgoblins bigest apparance after this is probably is in the 90's spider-man cartoon. Though he was only used because some people behind the secenes wanted to wait on using the green goblin and his toys were made. He still was a frequently used villian voiced well by mark hammil. Sadly hobgoblin hasn't been used much after that as he has a good visual design and is different enough from the green goblin to be his own character.
I have a soft spot for The Hobgoblin, having had the 90s cartoon get me into Spider-Man. Also when I was in boyscouts the pinewood derby car that I made I made Hobgoblin the driver (from a Happy meal toy). I got second place, you know who beat me ? The kid who made Spider-Man his driver. Lol.
Man those covers back then were outstanding. They do the job of making me want to read the issue
I loved Hobgoblin as a kid, but it was frustrating how a lot of his stories ended up anticlimactically...I liked Carrion, too. Hope the MCU can find room for both
I could actually see the McU doing a mystery Hobgoblin storyline someday soon. I would love to see it and it could restore Hobgoblin to the initial great character he was.
Ikr, though it'd be weird to think with the NWH ending that the Ned Leeds identity would actually interest the fans rather than being the literal sabotage it was with the comics
They would just fuck it up and make it boring like all the other storylines they cover lately
@@tyrotech6916a boy can dream
To be entirely fair, a similar-but-not-identical brother body double *is* a pretty stupid idea. I think Fisk is the most interesting option. Fisk as the Rose makes you wonder why he's not just openly working for his father in a better role. As hobgoblin, it could be a coup.
Introduce the Rose make that the brother(provided he looks like a his own character) and have Hobgoblin be Kingsley as a way to help his brother take over the King Pin's orginazation the serum is their plan to take out the Kingpin. it would even explain why Fisk wants Spiderman to deal with the Hobgoblin he can deny involvement with the brother and maybe win him back. Once his brother is in charge Kingsley can have his brother handle the crime side of his business dealings keeping the company name clear. Manipulating his brother into minimizing the risk to himself an establshed Hobgoblin trait.
That would be my ideal solution (fanfic) because I hate the lookalike sibling trope it is very common in old mystery novels and it never feels satisfying who knows if Defalco would have signed on. And maybe the brother would have been like the animatronic a one issue fake out it might have worked then. Regardless, of the canidates mentioned as the identity I do think Richard Fisk works the best with what was already in the story.
As much as I like Stern's comics it is difficult to believe many people liked his brothers' idea.
You can see why he did so he could give away red herrings and misdirect from Kingsley but damn if it isn't difficult to swallow.
It is such a golden age concept. Right there with Superman glasses that you only accept because it is established lore but, in this case, it was bronze age and comics had moved slightly away from the more campy aspects ( or used them ironically ).
As someone who read Web of Spider-Man #30, the origin of the The Rose in that issue is explained so well that it really hooked me. He was a villain with a genuine, scary grudge against his father.
Now that would be a good new Hobgoblin story.....
@@danieljeyn9847 Web #29-30 had some of their own problems. They're trying to sell Ned* and Richard as anti-heroes when they were total thugs while written by Stern and DeFalco. Well, at least it's not Venom becoming a good guy.
* "Ned" being Roderick Kingsley during Stern's run.
I prefer the Kingsley/Stern version and I think he could've been a major player (what Norman Osborn has become) if Stern was allowed to add layers to Kingsley and reveal him. Other than Ned Leeds reveal, I still enjoyed Macendale and his failed attempts to live up the mantle, including selling his soul. I am surprised you didn't mention the animated series version. Slott did attempt to return him to his Stern roots.
Lived through this whole thing and Hobby was my second favorite villain ever (Green Goblin was my fav) and I didn't realize the amount of chaos that was going on behind the scenes. Thanks for the whole story! And ya, up until Gang Wars - Spidey Wolverine .. Hobgoblin was amazing.
Kingpin's son being the Hobgoblin makes the most sense.
I enjoyed this history on the character a lot. As you alluded to, it's interesting what work came out of amazing Spider-Man immediately after this. Kraven's last hunt right after and then the Michellini and McFarlane run.
I remember a recent McFarlane documentary, he said that everybody warned him to stay away from the Spider-Man office before he went and demanded to be made the artist. I suspect this drama was what they were referring to!
Interesting stuff, makes me wonder what Hobgoblin stories could of been told if it weren't for the behind the scenes drama interfering. Honestly though I never have read through his comic book appearances, just absolutely loved him in the 90's animated Spiderman series, his look, his attitude and with exact same voice as Joker from the Batman animated series, thank you Mark Hamill 😂👍
This video was enthralling. Getting this glimpse behind the scenes of this long running book, and seeing the pety motivations that surrounded Goblin's reveal was insane. Really makes you wonder what other stories got ruined because of feuds and egos...
And when everyone is hobgoblin... Nobody is.
What a cool story! I actually kind of like the idea that Hobgoblin's identity is a mystery without answer. Sorta like Christopher Nolan's Joker - a force of nature villain. So often its the antagonist trying to unmask the hero but flip that concept on its head and you have something more interesting.
Except it wasn't written in a way that made Hobgoblin seem mysterious. It was just clumsily and inconsistantly written, so the character lost the personality he had in the beginning. The Hobgoblin didn't exude a sense of mystery- it was more like amnesia.
i'm not nearly old enough to have experienced the hobgoblin saga when it came out, however in my childhood i used to buy old comics from the used bookstore, the mystery of the hobgoblin really intrigued me and he actually used to be my favorite villain at that time, too bad it fell flat on its face, i barely think about hobgoblin when i read spider-man comics nowadays
So happy TH-cam decided to recommend this video to me! I've been binge watching your comic book videos the past few days and it's been so awesome. Thank you for the great content!
Chris- best one yet! I remember reading these stories and appreciate getting the “behind the scenes “ info!
The Hobgoblin idea could be given justice in Spider-Man 4 with Ned reverse-engineering the leftover tech from Defoe's Green Goblin, Roderick designing the suit, introducing characters like Harry Osborn to mislead the audience and the actual Hobgoblin being a surprise character like Liz Toomes, for example, exacting revenge on Spider-Man for putting her dad in jail.
Not a bad idea.
The Liz thing feels like a retread of Taskmaster we just had.
Whats left of the Goblin tech is the glider I guess. No chunk of armor
@@Joecbg100 not necessarily, the Taskmaster angle was poorly handled at least with Liz theirs reason for her hate Spider-Man as opposed to being used as a pawn by a vengeful parent.
No need for that, Ned is perfectly fine being Hobgoblin.
Plus, from what we’ve seen of Liz in Homecoming, It’s safe to say she wouldn’t be the type of person to take revenge.
That....could work......
Man, mysteries in Spider-Man stories are always a mess except for Green Goblin, even today with Kindred it got convoluted, for other reasons. It's better to keep it simple and not drag it out and overstay its welcome
Even Green Goblin was a BIG disagreement between Lee and Ditko.
Green Goblin started the trend of behind the scenes issues interfering with a major villain's identity reveal.
Great summary! Thanks for such a compelling telling of the characters history and the behind the scenes drama as well. Have a wonderful Christmas!
Never heard of this channel before, but I'm a huge Spider-man fan and definitely appreciate learning about the behind the scenes drama that led to such a promising character being let down by a lackluster reveal that came out of nowhere. You've earned a subscriber today.
I think Roger Stern is a great comicbook writer. His work on Amazing Spider-Man and The Avengers are some of my favorite comics. I’m glad Roger Stern got to tell the story of the Hobgoblin’s true identity in the Hobgoblin Lives miniseries in the 90s.
I just finished re-reading the entire ASM run from Amazing Fantasy 15 to the final issue of Ryan Ottley and Nick Spencer's run and Roger Stern's run really stood out. He's definitely my favorite Spidey writer.
@@D_Fyre how long did that take? As someone new to comics I like reading from the beginning of a series. I recently read X-men and all the x titles from the beginning up until 1995. Took a while. I’m thinking of reading hulk, Spider-Man and avengers the same way. Any advice on any issues/runs not worth reading/skipping? I assume you didn’t read all the Spider-Man series like peter Parker Spider-Man, web of Spider-Man, Spider-Man?
@@D_Fyre I'm planning on doing this soon, how long did it take to read?
@@fishin4bass2002 It took me about a year. I started in March of 2020 and finished around the same time 2021. I did take a couple month long breaks here and there because I would get burnt out sometimes. It was usually during the less interesting runs.
Yes, I only read Amazing and the annuals and I only read any non-Amazing titles that were essential tie-in issues like The Other.
I have some single issue gaps in the late 90s/early 2000s runs after the first reboot (when volume 2 started), so maybe that's why I feel the way I do about that time period, but I would say you could skip that first run by Howard Mackie. It's so different from what came right before it - art and writing - and it's really not as interesting. The stories are so much less personal and less mature. If you skip it, the following run is the J Michael Straczynski run, which is one of my favorites.
@@D_Fyre thanks. Personally I feel that you can’t just jump into a run and really understand the story. You need to start at the beginning. Videos like this makes me hate marvel and dc even more because they make so many changes that make no sense story wise.
I got all these issues via mail subscription. Yes, I’m old. 😀 Hard to exaggerate how hot the hobgoblin was, and how awful the identity reveal was.
I did too! As I recall, I had split the cost with my brother so i could get Spiderman and X-Men, while he took GI Joe and one other title that escapes me. Remember: the more you buy, the more you save!
Just discovered your channel and I love your videos, you clearly put a lot of work into the history of comics and it shows! I especially love that you talk about the good, the, bad and the ugly. Thanks for the excellent content!
WOW, I had no idea there was all this in-fighting within the company. Tropes, this is why I am a SUBSCRIBER! You are a real COMIC-HISTORIAN and your content is very engaging! I was so enthralled and fascinated with your story-telling combined with documented commentary between editor and writer.
I always liked him more than Green Goblin. I thought he just looked cooler.
Same
Cooler looking, saner, had an RV covered with guns one time. Overall I just liked him. And the idea of finding bunkers full of loot and going wild with it is great.
Yeah, I loved the Hobgoblin!!!! I have to admit there was a big hole when Ned was revealed to be the Hobgoblin!!!!! If he was as strong as Spider-Man, I doubt he could be taken down as easily as he was!!!! Even with trained assassins, he had weapons and super strength, I sure he would have at least taken one or two guys with him, and I doubt he would of had his arm broken that easily!!!!
Roger Stern was great. His run on The Avengers in the 80s was so memorable.
Thanks for an awesome video! I nearly skipped it but luckily watched it through since it made soooo much more sense into my own era of Spider-Man and Hobgoblin, who was my absolute favorite villain as a child.
A really good overview of one of the most tumultuous times behind the scenes. I hope someday we get more behind the scenes details on more recent controversial storylines such as One More Day and the recent ending of Nick Spencer's run.
It’s always a good day when I see a Comic Tropes upload
Woah dude you look strikingly like Willem Dafoe in your profile pic 😮
These deep dives are a thing of beauty. So much information is so clearly organised and explained.
this is what I love about this channel. really digs into "behind the bullpen" aspects of these stories.
Probably the best video of yours I have seen, and that isn’t intended as a back-handed compliment. You brought a really interesting story to life.
Amazing timing, I just read Hobgoblin Lives last week and wasn’t aware of this drama for the original story. True, Ned Leeds was never a good fit for Hobgoblin. Maybe they should have gone with Fisk for Hobgoblin and Roderick for Rose, seems like a better fit for them.
Possible Christmas drinking game: take a sip every time Chris says 'hobgoblin.'
Coming back to this channel after a year away and am blewn away by; that amazing new animated intro, it so fluid and the shots are dynamic you must have paid a small fortune to get it made!
The production quality of the video, audio, and the editing has glowed up too!
The new set is great, your present to the camera better than ever, and you look great!
We'll done to you Chris, this was amazing to see, it made me so happy!
ah yes the old Christmas story: The Grinch that ruined the Hobgoblin
Wow. Such a good episode. Hobgoblin was definitely my favourite Spidey villain growing up. That cover with Spidey holding his mask out of the water… burned into my brain.
My only experience with Hobgoblin is through encylopedias and books condensing Marvel history rather than the real issues, so I always thought it weird that there were so many fake Hobgoblins and that his true identity seemed kinda convoluted. I always thought that was done on purpose, but now I know the truth of the matter and my opinion of Hobgoblin is improved for it.
Same, I always thought that was weird. It was like there was more discussion on all the fakes than the real one.
@intergalactic92 Which is bad for readers, but probably exactly how Roderick Kingsley wants it, heh heh!
Great job very well thought out. I think your work gets better every time. You have a gift for story telling.
I remember reading these issues and how frustrated I was with the reveal and death of the Hobgoblin. I boycotted the titled and wrote a scathing letter to the editors. Until the Rami Spiderman film came out I never picked up another spiderman title.
It’s funny how controversial Goblin mysteries end up being off the page. While it’s now been somewhat debunked, for the longest time we believed Green Goblin’s secret led to Ditko leaving Marvel. Hobgoblin caused several problems as we see. The more recent “Sins Past”, while not nearly as revered as those two, was definitely controversial and ill-received.
And don't forget the debacle with Goblin 2099. Peter David had been setting up a reveal when he and a load of other 2099 creators all quit at the same time in solidarity with a sacked editor. He wrote one final issue under the new editor to wrap up as much as he could including revealing the Goblin's identity... only for a speech bubble to be added afterwards that completely switched it. He only learned about this when reading Usenet when the issue was published and was more than a little angry. (Later on a one-shot undid some of the mess.)
Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah, I wonder why? Mm. Who wrote the book of fu-
I'm surprised at how persistent the rumor was that Ditko left over the Green Goblin identity. In retrospect, it's pretty obvious from Norman Osborn's early appearances as Strom's partner that Ditko always intended for Osborn to be the Goblin.
@@daviddalrymple2284 Well that was only two issues before the reveal and Ditko's penultimate. Prior to that Osborn was just a background character with the distinctive hairstyle seen at Jonah's club.
Ditko's last two issues have some contradictory clues - there are hints that Spider-Man has only just become a problem for Osborn and also that a conflict with Ned Leeds was building to a climax (for a long time a low level rumour stated Ditko wanted Leeds to be the Green Goblin). Ditko's refusal to give interviews for the next 52 years (and his essays were not widely distributed) and Lee's poor memory meant that clear denials were hard to come by.
I started reading Spider Man midway through this story, I remember being intrigued by the mystery, and baffled by the reveal. I loved using the Hobgonlin in the Marvel Superhero RPG by TSR and giving him a new identity. Chris have you even considered doing an episode on the rpg?
Wonderfully done vid Chris! I truly hope you have a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
THAT WAS AWESOME!!! I think that was probably your best video ever ( to date )!! Thanks again. Merry Christmas to you and yours, hope you have a great holiday!!
I was also checking up on the Hobgoblin backstory after seein S:NWH this weekend, as the jokes about Ned and turning evil triggered my memory of his comic book counterpart. I found the Owsley-Priest blog post and it was a fascinating read. Even if you can't trust everything he writes (and he says himself he is writing from his perspective) it is a very open and honest story about being put into a manager position too young and at too dysfunctional a company. He was indeed set up to fail and I can undertand he lashed out, even if it was self-destructive. It makes me angry that they put him through that and that it soured his love of comics. Hobgoblin is certainly a cursed character.
If Priest being set to fail was the reason he was petty, then why was the fact he was petty the reason he failed? On one hand, he holds a writers' retreat, on the other he gets a book published he doesn't tell any of those writers about.
Go on, get angry over... what he did? To himself? What?
Didn't he do a run on Black Panther years later? Also, who in the name of God thought that putting a 22 year old, just out of college person over industry veterans who've worked for years at their jobs was a good idea?! Someone in executive management was smoking something incredibly strong!
@@crapshot321 The answer to all of this is, Jim Shooter, which can honestly be a fascinating video on its own
@@crapshot321 A good bit of wisdom I gained long ago that I tell to a lot of young people is: "Never, ever apply to be a supervisor as your first position in a company."
Just think about it for a moment. What's supposed to happen is that they promote someone in the company to be a supervisor. If they just hire someone to be a supervisor from outside the company, it means that they don't think anyone in the company is competent enough to be a supervisor, or no one wants to be a supervisor. Both of those are bad signs.
But, more importantly, if the young guy that no one has experience working with is suddenly put in charge of employees who have been working in the company for years, those people aren't going to be happy, and they will likely be petty about their dislike of you. You'll be facing an uphill battle, so you need to be very competent and confident.
It's almost always better to start in another role in the company and work your way up, instead.
@@crapshot321 Priest has done tons of incredible runs over the years since. probably one of the best writers in the 2000's, at least.
My introduction to Hobgoblin was the 90s animated series, Hobgoblin always seemed so deranged, I loved him.
Thank you for making this, my first comic I bought was the Ned Leeds reveal Amazing 289 and bought all the prior comics with Hobgoblin and followed him through the Jason Macendale era. This video helped answer a lot of questions I had as a kid growing up reading issues with Hobgoglin.
Great video man, very informative. I never truly did understand this character, and now I see why.
I was really into those comics at the time and I thought it was terribly disappointing that the Hobgoblin was somebody who had already been killed before his identity was revealed, and even more disappointing that this incredibly competent and powerful supervillain had been taken down by some common mooks, and most disappointing of all was that the Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds of all people. It just made no sense.
You did a great job on this video, your commentary had me hooked
Another great video. You hit this one right out of the park. Loved it.
Hobgoblin was always my favorite Spiderman villain. The covers where he's just an orange hood with glowing eyes are simply iconic
Despite the focus issues on this video and the last, the lighting setup on this video and the last is the best you've had. If you keep this lighting, fix the focus and stick with a shallow depth of field your next video could look really slick!
I've loved your work for years, thanks for the videos!
I just discovered this channel this week and its easily one of my favorites on this site!
Looking good Chris! Haven't been to your channel in a while. Good to see you're still kicking my man! Happy New Year!
Been waiting for a Hobgoblin video from yr excellent channel for a while!))
On to watching!cheers from Greece!
Great video! Perhaps in the future we could see one on Spider-Man's most infamous foe: Corn of Coblin.
Dude it’s been awhile since I’ve seen channel, new intro looks great!
A great video as always, keep up this amazing work buddy! 😀👍
The Hobgoblins identity should've never been reviled. It should still be a mystery to this day.
"Maybe Hobgoblin's not out there. Maybe he's in here: the human heart."
I honestly feel like that the mysterious and illusive version of Hobgoblin could still be executed well today, especially given the benefit of hindsight as a means of avoiding the editorial pitfalls. Now a days I think Spidy could use a more methodical and calculative villain to really give him a challenge.
I hope they do that if they bring him into Tom Holland's Spider-Man. The idea of it being MCU's Ned is awful imo
I used to watch your videos way back in 2016. Its great to know that the channel got the popularity it deserved over time. Congrats, Chris.
I have not watched your videos for a considerable amount of time yet the moment that I heard the music at the beginning I thought "this sounds just like comic tropes" that is some dedication to branding and I have to say it works to a charm
this is so similar to Nick Spencer's run. he also wanted to move his story faster but was stopped by editors trying to impose rules on him
Ah, this is just great. I still have #245, #250, #251, and the issues that featured The Rose and Jack O'lantern in an ole box of comics from that era. Literally remember scribbling Spidey v. Hobby action doodles before school while Gran pestered about me getting around to reading the copy of Jaws she bought at Zellers. The memories! Oh, the memories!
Watched this on Xmas day. Thank you so much for this gift! I was way into the Hobgoblin story arc as a young teen back in the day. Great to find out all the behind the scenes stuff from this fiasco. I really enjoyed this video. Thank you.
Wow mind blown over that intro loved it and your content gonna share with friends
It always bugs me when I hear "fans" get all geeked about the MCU Spidey films hoping that Ned Leeds becomes Hobgoblin. Even a line in No Way Home alludes to Peter's best friend Harry turning to the dark side with the hint MCU Peter's Best bud could follow suit. Why good natured fans want one of the most controversial and convoluted storyline reveals as a result of in-house fighting is beyond me. I have no problem if Hobgoblin is in the MCU (I'd prefer the demonic Hobgoblin myself) that could frame Ned and/or Flash....or that the identity remained a mystery in a film.
You can easily make a very cool mystery-type movie when you introduce Macendale, Kingsley and Donovan and make Spidey trying to figure out which one of them is the Gobby. You can really play with many faces of the characters making one of them (or all of them) Hobgoblins. Again, some stories just need to be rewritten and given a second chance. Yes, you are right about in-fighting, but taking the story born in such
tumultuous times and turn the premise on its head could really be something else.
definitely keep the identity a secret if he shows up which I hope is eventually
I mean, No Way Home adapted elements from the One More Day story which is one of the most controversial Spidey stories ever. I think people like seeing bad comic plots get converted into good movies. I definitely enjoyed Ultimate Spider-man's take on the Clone Saga for how awesome and concise it was in contrast to the original.
At least Ned is already an established character in the MCU. Could you imagine a fashion designer suddenly showing up for one movie to be a green goblin clone? People would think that’s fucking stupid.
@@billymanziel5666 Who said if Kingsley were introduced in the MCU he would *have* to be a fashion designer?
It really is sad to think that simply writing a villain for a beloved character like Spider-Man ended up causing so much chaos among people and their friendships. I know it is more common than most people think in these types of workplaces, but that is still pretty said to think about.
I also love how in the writing column at 25:57, some of the answers were basically the written equivalent of troll comments. Seriously, one of them said it was going to be J. Jonah Jameson, which could have actually been real and I would love a multiversal Hobgoblin that was secretly Jameson, and the other said "Hobgoblin is obviously the mummified clone of Dr. Bart Hamilton's son's old girlfriend, who was killed by an allergic reaction to jet glider exhaust fumes." Someone should have gave that guy a medal for that Mat Pat level theory!
Wow! I haven’t tuned in for a while and the new intro is amazing!
:) Great video! I remember reading all of this as a kid and how bummed out I was the later issues on these comics and with all the reveals that killed the character and his mystique
Hobgoblin was always one of my favorite villains, he was just such an interesting character with a cool design and i loved all his gadgets.
Something very dreamlike about the lack of focus in your camera lol. I like it!
first time seeing the channel, great video and love the intro animation
Awesome video! I really enjoyed this!
I was getting Spidey from this era the true identity of the Hobgoblin was massive, discussion about it ran in the letters pages for years. And a shout out to Ron Frenz who was an amazing Spider-Man artist.