I have read that the Balrogs only took orders from Melkor/Morgoth in person, and that a Balrog probably being a former maia of Aulë, would see itself as Saurons equal, since Sauron also was a former maia of Aulë. Also the Balrog must know that Glorfindel who slew Gothmog lord of the balrogs still lived in Rivendell.The Balrog of Moria/Durins bane knew he was powerful, but he also knew that he could be killed.
I believe Balrogs did not originate as being maiars belonging to any of the Valar of valinor, rather they originated as Maiar who existed outside of the "world" during the music of creation, who like the Valar partook in the music. When Melkor sowed his own discord in Eru's music, those Maiar joined with Melkor. Meaning, they were Melkor's very own Maiar. Balrogs did not fear any elf, they would throw themselves at the spider of the void herself, a being greater than even Melkor himself. if you think they would shy away from some elf you're severely underestimating them. As an added note, being Melkors own personal maiar, they had no allegiances to any being other than Melkor himself. Durins bane were awaiting his masters return, it was only stirred into action because a powerful foe had invaded its resting place. Sauron did not have the authority to command the Balrogs if Melkor were not around. They would not be disposed to follow Saurons plans if those plans did not originate with their master. Durins bane would not bother to interfere with Sauron either way, it would be content to remain hidden at the roots of the world until the end times, it was not a rival, ally, subject or adversery to Sauron, but a neutral party.
Actually, that's a common misconception. The Balrog is indeed a formidable foe, but it's not a Maia. It's a type of ancient spirit known as a Maiar. Sauron, on the other hand, is a Maia. And while the Balrog is powerful, it's generally considered that Sauron, especially with the One Ring, holds a higher level of power and influence in Middle-earth.
What conversation between the Balrog and Sauron would boil down to… Sauron: “Hey buddy, remember me?” Balrog: *confused* Mairon, is that you?” Sauron: “Yep. Long time no see. Ya look great, how are you?” Balrog: “I’m fine old friend. I should be the one asking that. Sauron: *confused* “Come again?” Balrog: “What, are you not use it mirrors anymore? You look terrible, your aura is smaller and you feel weak in power.” *genuine concern* “What happened to you? Your face, your hair, your hand?” Sauron: “It’s a long story, but to summarize; I made ring to enhance my power and even bound my soul to it but lost it and “died” about 3,000 years ago but I’m better now.” Balrog: “You bound yourself to a ring? Gothmog and Boldog were right, you truly *are* an idiot.” Sauron: *desperately trying to get to the point out of impatience* “Whatever, I stayed up the old empire in Mordor. You in or out?” Balrog: “Are Lord Melkor, Cpt. Gothmog, Kosmot, or even the pale Balrog around?” Sauron:”…N…no.” Balrog: “Then get lost ya ember haired pretty boy. And leave me in peace.” Sauron: *utterly done* “You dare speak to me in such a manner? Dare disobey me!? Listen well, you oversized…” Balrog ascends to true high, form and power:*cuts him off* “No *YOU* listen to *ME,* you deformed usurping weasel!” “I DON’T take orders from YOU! I only obey Melkor, Gothmog, or my Balrog kin! And *they* are all gone. Get off my lawn, and don’t come back. Sauron powering up: *stern yet raspy voice* “You DON’T want to do this.” Balrog: “Don’t bother, Mairon. We both know what happened the last time you fought a Balrog in single combat. And you were *much* stronger back then. Go home and leave me be In my home.”
When I first read the part, I loved that the evil world is also multifaceted and dynamic. I felt that added so much depth and reality to the world Tolkien created.
The balrogs probably werent huge fans of Sauron. They followed Melkor even before the ainulindale, but Sauron only defected at the end of the years of the lamps, which lasted 50% of the entire history of Arda. He immediately took rank over them becoming Morgoths Lieutenant.
@@RavenHart-sx8xs They were trees of light until Ungoliant consumed them with the help of Melkor, then what remained of them was fashioned into the "Lamps". Also, at least according to the encyclopedia of arda, the poster is incorrect in the duration of Sauron's allegiance, he was working for Melkor in one form or another even before the darkening of the Valar and the start of the first age, which predates the creation of the Balrogs and dragons IIRC.
Sauron was already terrified that Saruman might claim the ring for his own. And Saruman even in his treachery, was limited as an Istari. The Balrog was a fully-powered Maia though. And had given itself to darkness for even more power. So it's natural that the last thing Sauron wanted was the Balrog getting any ideas of claiming the ring for its own.
@@Dunkelelf3 A Barlog that managed to kill Gandalf is still pretty powerful though. A shadowflame powered Maia that was not morally or physically limited in any way. It could still harness and use the full power of the ring on top of its own. Perhaps even in ways that even Sauron could not. It might be less powerful than a ring-bearing Gandalf or ring-bearing Saruman. But it probably still would overpower a half-powered ringless Sauron. Or at least directly challenge him
@@Dunkelelf3isn’t Gandalf more powerful than both Saruman and Sauron but a lot more humble in his abilities etc. Also Maiar and Istari are one and the same.
It seems clear that Sauron wanted to RULE Middle Earth not destroy it, while its very likely that the Balrog would want to DESTROY the very lands and people that Sauron seeks to rule. And the Balrog being of immense, if not equal power, may not have been something that Sauron was willing to challange. Same holds true with Smaug and Shlob, those to lesser extent.
Agreed. Sauron wants to conquer and rule everything, but the Balrog comes across as the sort of creature that a) Would just want to destroy everything in sight indiscriminately, and b) Is almost completely uncontrollable. It's not an attack dog that can be tamed, it's more like a rabid bear.
@@Adamguy2003The balrogs could be tamed by Morgoth, the one who corrupted them. But not by Sauron, especially not without the One Ring. I don't believe that he fully controlled Saruman either. Saruman simply saw no victory against Sauron. But he would have rebelled (and failed) if he ever got ahold of the Ring himself. He was in it for himself, Durin's Bane even more so. But none of them would have dared to rebel against Morgoth.
I can see what you’re saying, but this isn’t Dungeons and Dragons or some other typical fantasy. In Tolkien’s world, I believe good and evil are much more black and white and don’t fall so much into the lawful, neutral, chaotic, etc tropes. Identifying characters as lawful evil or chaotic evil is a fine way to classify things from a reader’s point of view, but I don’t think it applies so much to Tolkien’s world from an in-universe perspective.
Indeed both dark lords has different objectives Melkor wanted the complete destruction of Arda and perhaps all of creation Sauron just wanted to bend middle earth to his will even with the one ring he knew he was outclassed ans outmatched by the Valar residing in Valinor even if he had the whole of middle earth as his army.
The ultimate doomsday scenario for late Third Age Middle Earth would have been if Durin's Bane had overcome Gandalf, slain the whole Fellowship, and taken the One Ring. At that point, I think the situation for all factions in the War of the Ring would have been so dire that the Free Peoples and Sauron would have had to form a VERY uneasy and temporary alliance just to stop the Ring-enhanced Balrog...
But would a balrog even desire the ring? 6:55 they seem to me as well to just be pure evil and mindless brawlers. Seeng Durin's Bane slaughter everyone frodo panicked and puts the ring on only to still be seen and struck down all the while Sauron instantly finds him. After killing everyone the balrog goes back to take a nap and Sauron sends his smallest and fastest orc to retrieve the ring.
Nope Balrog were of lesser God/Angel status and same form of being as Gandalf and Sauron. And it was the Balrog's counter spell the broke Gandalf's door bar. So it very smart. And certainly would want to use the Ring to make it self the ruler of Middle Earth not Sauron. @@NexusGameEnt
@@milferdjones2573 magic in Tolkien's universe doesn't require a high cognition as it's emanated through strength of words and spirit. The only balrog I can imagine to have the ambition of a darklord would've been Gothmog since he was their leader and held a high position similar to Sauron. Durin's Bane didn't establish a seat of power in Moria when he fled there he just killed everyone when he woke up this is why I believe the ring would be ignored the guy only had a desire to sleep and not be disturbed by Eru's children. He only left the goblins in khazadum be because they too descend from his master Morgoth
I am struck by the fact that the Watcher in the Water slammed the gates of Moria, caused a cave-in and ripped out the trees to lock the Company inside. Water is also opposite of fire, the nature of the Balrog. Maybe the Watcher was originally placed to keep the Balrog inside Moria. Galadriel is not far away on the other side. It looks like the Balrog was pretty well contained.
It’s a nameless thing that like climbed up the tunnels made by the dwarves from like super deep dark in u defraud pools, creatures like it also have lived down there since the creation of middle earth
Would Galadriel fair well against the Balrog? Besides her ring she is an above average elf who is most likely a lot less powerful than Gandalf who is known to be as powerful as Sauron without the ring.
If we look at the source material we can see that Tolkien went on and about how the Maia are powerful spirits with different amount of power and how their power changes with their form. Tarindor (Sarumans old moniker) for example was so strong that he was chosen - together with Melian and the other guardians - to keep the elves save from Melkor (the strongest of all the Ainur). Later on he had not as much power because he was clothed in a specific disguise. Sauron lost his form many times - once due to Huán and Luthien, then later due to Numenór and then due to Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur. The Balrog in Moria was one of the few who survived all the battles that killed most of its kind in Beleriand and hid himself. Not from Sauron though, who also was thinking about going back to the Valar. Remember that he went to Eonwe and asked him to be forgiven and be taken back into Aules service, but Eonwe told him he couldnt accept him and that only the Valar could do that. Sauron was also disgraced by his defeat at Tol Sirion and we never hear from him again in the wars in Beleriand thereafter, so its save to assume that he lost his high position at Morgoths court, while the Balrogs always stayed the "bodyguards" and "shock-troops" of the dark tower and - as such - high in favor. Also Sauron has no leverage for the Balrog. It has no loyalty to him or his plans. The balog was just a neutral party that waited until Morgoth came back or he would hear the call of Morgoth again. Sauron was able to dominate other Maia as we see with Saruman, who - although weakened and not able to use his full power - fell partly under his spell. The Balrog is fully empowered and i reckon Sauron knew that the Balrog was in Moria. He also knew of Smaug in the Lonely Mountain and kept him there without any contact. So why wouldnt Sauron take the chance to unleash the Balrog? He sure would love to see him coming down on Rivendell or Lothlorien and weaken the elvish domains there, but he wasnt able to control him properly. And Sauron - in essence - always was a being of what? Order. Control. Like most of Aules creatures he loved to create, control and order things and that is what he did. He was not Morgoth with his idea to destroy what he could not have. He wanted to control and order it so that it all went orderly under his tutelage and eyes. The Balrog in essence was a lap dog for Morgoth but not for Sauron. So i think Sauron was happy that the Balrog sat inside Moria and kept to himself.
The biggest problem for Sauron IMHO is also from the source material. Sauron, the balrogs, and the dragons were all roughly equals under morgoth and came from the same status before they were corrupted,. They're equally powerful in different ways (besides smaug, he's the youngest, smallest, and weakest of the dragons) and owe no allegiance to each other. Sauron can't control or coerce either of them when he can barely even manifest himself as a floating fireball on a stick without the ring, the best move he could make was leaving them where they sat. They kept two dwarven nations from rebuilding, and their presence attracted plenty of orks, wargs, trolls, and other beasts that would cause problems for the neighbouring elves and humans. tldr: he could kill two sticks with one bird by leaving them alone
I see that both Sauron and Durin's Bane were both Maiar and probably saw each other as equals more than Sauron seeing him as someone to dominate. Plus, in order for Sauron to influence Durin's Bane, he needed the one ring to do so since he wasn't at his full power and Durin's Bane was.
The absolute power of the armies that Morgoth could field was just immense. He leisurely sent balrogs and dragons to accompany armies of hundreds of thousands of orcs. Once, he even sent Balrogs on top of dragons... Sauron never had even a fraction of that power. Then again, he didn't have to fight against the still powerful dwarven empires, the still prominent elves of middle earth, the noldor and even the Valar themselves.
Sauron couldn't control the Balrog, not reliably, and couldn't risk losing control of his minions during dfforts to dominate the Balrog. Since he couldn't guarantee dominating it, a creature nearly at an equal level of raw power, he left the Balrog to sow it's own chaos. There's no way Sauron would trust a voluntary alliance with the Balrog, and I believe he feared lest the Balrog usurp his Ring before he could find it and secure possession.
@@gojewla Except that it's apples and oranges. One could make the argument the Balrog is a more powerful martial threat than Sauron. But Sauron isn't playing by those rules. He never takes to the field of battle except as a last resort. Sauron's way is the way of water rather than of fire, of slow erosion, of corruption. Gandalf knows this. It's why the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth rather than a host from Arda as was done with Morgoth; because Sauron can't be defeated by force of arms. Any such "defeat" is temporary as Sauron's spirit lives on through his Ring to eventually reform itself. Gandalf knows that to fight Sauron is to lose; even if he was capable of "defeating" him in a duel based on his success against the Balrog. Sauron can only be defeated through misdirection, subterfuge, and his own overbearing arrogance leveraged against him (i.e. refusing to accept that anyone could ever bring themselves to destroy the Ring in an effort to destroy him). The Balrog is powerful within its domain; direct martial combat. Quite possibly more powerful than Sauron. But Sauron is more powerful within his domain - corruption, manipulation, patience, and long-term strategy - than the Balrog. And, given that time is on Sauron's side along with the fact he can't be destroyed while the Ring exists, Sauron always wins in the end; even in the face of a superior martial foe. So it _could_ be argued the Balrog is equal or even more "powerful" than Sauron; but only if one is using a very primitive definition of power as _"one who can hit harder with a flaming sword"_ versus _"an immortal who can manipulate the fortunes of entire civilizations across millennia to achieve long-term goals."_
I am convinced that Tolkien never entertained the idea that the Balrog or Smaug would ever bother to align themselves with Sauron. It is similar to Tom Bombadil or the many other characters or powers in Middle Earth. It was probably Tolkien’s intention that these characters or figures be nothing more than additional powers that would remain unaligned, and be more caught up with their own self-interest. In Sauron’s weakness, without the One Ring, it’s likely the Balrog could have possibly surpassed Sauron, if it struck the Balrog’s fancy. When reading TLOTR and watching the movies I had always thought of the Balrog as a sort of entity of darkness who lacked agency, like a sort of berserker. Like I never got the idea that the Orcs and fowl creates of Moria _served_ the Balrog but sort of held the Balrog in a fearful reverence, like the Balrog was just as likely to kill them as command them to do anything. It seems like the Orcs of Moria sort of drove the Fellowship toward the Balrog then ran off, like the orcs were leaving an offering to their vengeful god.
We don't know much about the nature of balrogs. They were once Maiar, yes, but it seems that Melkor changed them into these fire demons to serve his purposes. It's possible that they were more like animals than sentients, as seen in the way the balrog that eventually came to Moria and hid for such long ages after it was logically necessary. We get little sense that it has much of what we would call consciousness or awareness, let alone further territorial ambition. The Dwarves forced it into action, but once it had Moria under its sway, it just sat there. Without Melkor driving it, it had only an animal-like satisfaction in staying put in its den. It doesn't plan, it doesn't speak, it shows few signs of being a thinking as opposed to instinctual creature. So it's possible that Sauron couldn't make an alliance with a balrog. At best, as you suggest, it was like Shelob, useful to him where it was (assuming he was even aware of it).
Always thought they subsumed themselves into the world, so to speak, became part of the physical world. Like elves choosing to stay and adopting mortality, it's a big choice. Their nature changed.
gothmog was morgoth's general, the other balrogs morgoth's captains, sauron morgoth's lieutenant. either might have been able to dominate smaug, a considerably lesser dragon than glaurung or ancalagon the black were, or maybe not. dragons were morgoth's pet weapons project, after all.
I think your interpretation is completely wrong. I don't know Tolkien's lore deeply but from what I know, Balrogs are sentient and intelligent. In the books, it's said that they can talk, negotiate terms, lead armies etc. Also in the book, Durins Bane not only fought with Gandalf physically, but also using magic. He casted counter spells which nearly broke Gandalf.
@@anshadedavana You may be right, but I can't think of an occasion where they spoke, at least in anything canonical (i.e. published in Tolkien's lifetime). So much of what we think we know with Tolkien is just provisional, what he's thinking at the moment, and he could always change his mind. For instance, in the Book of Lost Tales there are many Balrogs attacking Gondolin, but in later writing he said there were probably no more than three Balrogs ever. Even the "fact" that they are Maiar, though widely accepted, isn't in any of the canonical books.
It probably says something that Gandalf felt Smaug needed to be taken out before the War of the Ring started, but with Durin's Bane he was content to just get the Fellowship away from it (before he also fell and had to commit to finishing the fight, anyway). There was a very real concern that Sauron could have recruited Smaug, but Gandalf doesn't seem to feel the same about the balrog stalking Moria's ruins. I suspect it's a case of Sauron likely being unable to control a balrog, a fellow Maia, especially in his current weakened state. And even without it Sauron had this war in the bag, so no need to take a risk by working with a being with the power to potentially usurp him.
The reason for this was because the Balrogs were, and arguably rightfully so, afraid that the Valar would show back up to finish what they started when they marched on Morgoth and sunk Beleriand beneath the ocean in so doing. The Silmarillion makes it pretty clear this was the reason they hid in the deepest, most hidden and inhospitable places in the world. If you are willing to go that far to survive, then it makes sense that the Balrog would prioritize drawing as little attention as possible. It's likely that Sauron could have and even might have offered an alliance and was just flat out refused, as the Balrog were still fearful of the Valar. If it wasn't, it didn't really have a reason to remain in Moria, and the others wouldn't have a reason to remain hidden either. That is, of course, if Sauron even knew the Balrog was in Moria, which is never truly confirmed or not.
It's not clear to me what Gandalf knew about Durin's Bane. He knew something was there, but did he know that it was a Balrog? The text in LOTR suggests that it was a nasty surprise to him.
Durin's Bane and Sauron would have known each other right? They both served Morgoth during his time. So these two probably shared a beer at the bar after torturing and murdering elves every friday night when they were serving.
The Balrog and Shelob did play their parts. I think Eru Iluvatar played a much bigger role in the quest than anyone gives him credit for. As God of All Eru not only brought back Gandalf as the White, led the ring to Frodo, Frodo and Sam to Mordor, and Gollum to destroy the ring, but I think the run ins with The Balrog and Shelob were set up by Eru too. How else would Gandalf get his much needed power boost, and I don't see Frodo having the strength to cross into Mordor, so being unconscious and dragged across the border was probably best for his sanity.
But the balrog was made by morgoth not eru and Shelob is said to be the offspring of ungoliant who’s origins is unknown even to the valar and Gandalf came back as the white because Saruman abandoned his mission and got corrupted and the valar had chosen Gandalf has the leader of the Istari but Gandalf told them Saruman was the better choice and they accepted there’s only one instance in the whole history of arda were Eru himself intervened and it wasn’t against any of the dark lords it was against men that rebelled against him he was fine with what melkor and Sauron were doing to arda but got really pissed off at men for wanting immortality Eru is kinda of asshole.
@@imjennasidel6703Morgoth couldn't create, only corrupt. Eru indeed created the Maiar who later became balrogs. As the creator of everything he could just do a reboot and start over at any point, so yeah he was kinda indifferent for the most part. As we know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even God. And the more he intervened the more it takes away from the agency of his creations. It ruins the stakes. It's enough that he reshaped Arda and brought Gandalf back.
@@imjennasidel6703 Specifically eru got pissed off at men for worshipping melkor with human sacrifices of people faithful to the elves and valar, waging war on the valar and elves and and probably most importantly, breaking the ban they had on the undying lands or, they tried to enter heaven while living. More specifically, trying to enter an elven heaven and defile it. The ideology of a omniscient god isn't one of having your hand held all throughout life, it's one wherein the help you need will be rendered through physical form. You aren't here to experience eternal bliss, you're here to go through a journey and struggle. I'm not religious nor do I have deep understanding of any religion but it just seems very obvious that the criticism of "if god exists why do children suffer" is well, a complete refusal to engage with any degree of empathy.
Why would the Balrog work under a Maia that abandoned Melkor and hide during the latter years of the First Age and didn't help during the War of Wrath. Sauron likely didn't want the Balrog know that he instilled a portion of his power in a ring that he lost and was afraid the Barlog would try to seize the ring for himself. I would also surmise that some of the goblins of Moria were watching for the ring bearer but kept the Barlog uninformed about it since the goblins waited until the Fellowship had spent days moving through Moria and were only a few hours from the East Gate before attacking. No way they didnt keep watch throughout Moria. Once the Balrog might have been alerted by the noise in the Throne room they attacked early to try to capture the ring and flee to the East Gate with it. Highly speculative but it explains the goblins being seemingly oblivious that they were there for days.
where are you getting this tale of sauron's betrayal and desertion of morgoth from? and did not the balrog also flee to hide at the roots of a mountain?
@@thehellyousay Silmarillion. Sauron was Morgoth's 2nd in command. Sauron captured and tortured Beren. Galadriel's brother, Finrod sacrificed himself to save Beren in the dungeon. When Lúthien came with Huan the hound to saved Beren, Huan defeated Sauron's minions and then shapeshifting Sauron himself. Sauron fled and hid until the 2nd Age. He did not return to his master, Morgoth to assist him and the Balrogs nor did he help during the War of Wrath. The Balrog fled presumably during the War of Wrath when he knew that Morgoth lost hiding in the mountains. The Balrog likely would not help someone who he worked under who then fled and hid from the boss, Morgoth, and didn't help when the Valar's forces arrived for the War of Wrath. The Balrog would be very interested in combining his power with the part of Sauron's power instilled in the One Ring.
1. Because he didn't know about it 2. Because he couldn't contact it 3. Because it didn't want to help 4. Because Sauron was terrified of the possibility of someone else using his Ring and until he had it back, he was vulnerable to being overthrown. Having the balrog in his ranks would a greater liability than an asset because it could very easily have just decided to kill him and take his place as ruler of Mordor
I would like to add a small correction on point 4 - If the Balrog took the ring it would eventually enslave the Balrog to it (Sauron's soul). It would tempt it with visions of conquest and glory, perhaps even impersonating Melkor, drawing it out of Moria. Remember, the ring is powerful enough to easily corrupt Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, even Tom Bombadail. I don't think Saruman even understood what he was dealing with. In the books, he became "Saruman of many colors" and it was quite clear he wasn't quite... All there. The ring falling into his hands would be the end of him.
Gandalf himself stated in the story "The Quest Of Erebor" that Sauron would have had the Balrog and Smaug ( "Imagine fire & sword in the North") as part of his strategy to defeat the Free Peoples of Middle Earth.
i've seen a couple of your videos recently and thoroughly enjoy the depth and detail they go in to. i doubt that an AI would be able to provide the sound reasoning that you do. i look forward to checking out more of your work!
It's so obviously an AI generated script, voice, and all the art, too. Within the first minute it says that "...the valinor finally resolved to confront the dark force of melkor...". Actually, they are called "the Valar", and Valinor is the land in which they live.
Simple answer If someone with the same rank and security clearance gives u orders… would u do it? U dont have to … so u just dont They are literally equals both servants of Morgoth
Wasn't the Balrog a "Balrog of Morgoth" and Sauron was also a servant of Morgoth. So there is no reason to assume these two servants would team up. Once Morgoth was banished to the Abyss, they pursued their own particular agenda's.
Its pretty obvious to me. Balrogs don't likely make real good employees. My guess is they are prone to being insubordinate. The Balrog would probably think Sauron need to be its employee. And had the Balrog been able to get the one ring, then Sauron WOULD have been its employee, not the other way round.
I believe it was said in the books in the Moria part that there were larger orcs of a different breed in with the goblins that attacked the fellowship, I was always under the impression that those were Mordor orcs who were there as support and eyes for Sauron. I'm not 100% sure that that was what they were, but it makes sense.
Sauron use Shelob as a guard, he would not be able to intimidate the Balrog and who would have seen itself as a power and so he adopted the same approach, let them have their lair, until he gets the ring.
I think it is more then that. Sauron was defeated once alreadyx and now did not even have the ring. The balrog could have been a real danger to rauson and a very unsure ally at best. From a risk/reward angle that makes no sense to even try.
There's no reason to suggest Sauron even knew a Balrog still existed, they were all presumed destroyed in the Host of Valinor during the final battle of the War of the Wrath which destroyed Beleriand. As far as he or anyone else knew their physical forms were destroyed and their spirits dragged back to Valinor for the doom of Manwe.
Given that various Balrogs were slain by elves over the centuries. Gandulf before his power up slew the Balrog even at the price of his own corporal form being broken in doing so. This suggests that in power the Balrog would be less powerful than Saruman. Glorfindel had already slain a Balrog and presumably Gladriel would also have been able to withstand the Balrog.
Top level Elf were demigods effectively themselves and some full out Gods effectively, by the time of the Lord of the Rings they were all except one or two over the Sea in the Undying Land. Their greatest warrior King able to give Morgoth a fight and he was way more powerful than and minor God as he was major and the most powerful Major to boot. Lord of the Rings being based on Christianity has the mystery of why does Heaven not send it's hosts to battle evil on Earth. After the end of the first Age the Major Gods and the highest type of Elf along with all the minor Gods will not come to help in Middle Earth again except by stealth Wizards who are forbidden to use their base form powers to fight Sauron directly. 14 Major Gods if I got the number right and all the super elf and minor gods could come to Middle Earth and curb stomp Sauron with ease his servants probably just running away.
@@milferdjones2573Valar refuse to involve themselves because their power is earth shattering. That and this was a battle dor mortal men to prove themselves.
The Balrog was hiding, in the end. I don't think it would have been as interested in making brothers in arms as much as it was in just finding the right place to chill and getting everyone else to get the hell out of his lawn while he's trying to sleep. Sauron would've known the Balrog would've been as welcoming to him as it was to everybody else.
Way I see it is Sauron only had use for creatures he could dominate through intimidation and fear, their fear being an assurance that they would not betray him or that they’d do their best to not disappoint him. Sauron probably knew that a Balrog of Morgoth wouldn’t fear him and so subjugating it would be almost impossible. Sauron making a deal and entering an alliance with the balrog could have been a possibility but maybe Sauron didn’t think it was worth the effort and in his weakened state maybe he thought the balrog wouldn’t think him worthy enough to ally with.
I'm not an expert but if Gandalf could kill the Balrog (although it also cost him) surely Sauron could have confronted it at least to test out its allegiance? Everyone says Sauron was weakened but he seems to me to be more powerful than Saruman and Gandalf? Maybe like most people suggest it was perhaps too close of a battle potentially and if the Balrog just sat in Moria that was also serving a purpose for him.
If Sauron could even find a Balrog, would he trust a Balrog without first having his Ring? I doubt it. At the height of his power under Morgoth, I don't think he controlled the Balrogs, I'm pretty sure they fell soley under Gothmog, who probably acted as another of Morgoths lieutenants as well as the leader of all Balrogs. After the fall of Morgoth, there were very few Balrogs that escaped, and they hid themselves in very deep dark places. They wouldn't be easy to find, and if found, would they even follow his commands?
Are most AI voiced videos created by a chatGP type program, or is a transcript just read by someone that doesn’t want to be on camera? Genuinely asking because I tend to avoid AI voices videos but this seems well written with accurate content and insight.
Balrogs were Melkor's creatures! Especially since Balrogs were also Maiar before the alliance with Melkor. Sauron could only have gained the support of the Balrogs if they had voluntarily joined Sauron. It really makes one wonder if Sauron, at his full strength, could ever have forced the Balrogs to serve him. On the other hand, Sauron (Mairon) was initially probably the strongest Maiar. Still defeated by Huan and Luthien. - After Sauron lost the ring, Sauron's power diminished massively. - It was similar but somewhat different and not quite as unsuccessful with Melkor. Melkor was also at the top of the hierarchy among the Valar, next to Manwe, perhaps even above Manwe, since he shared in the gifts of all the Valar, but Melkor could and was defeated by Tulkas. - It's similar with the Maiar.
It's good to clarify about the A.I usage, people just want to know that it was guided by a human mind. I liked the video and found the information thought provoking on the material, thank you.
I remember reading that Gandalf's actions in "The Hobbit" were intended to prevent Sauron from using Smaug as a weapon in the upcoming war. I also remember reading a timeline that stated Sauron "stocked" Moria with orcs. This strongly implied that Sauron knew about the Balrog and gave him minions as a gift or bribe. Remember, guile, charm and persuasion were also among Sauron's talents. This video only briefly mentions that Sauron's powers were greatly diminished without the One Ring. This bears more emphasis. Sauron was clever and patient and fixated on recovering the One Ring. AFTER the ring was on his finger again, Sauron might have the power to easily enslave the Balrog, Smaug and Shelob at his leisure. Such unstated powers of the Ring, would provide clearer motivations for ALL those who were tempted to possess it throughout the Lord of the Rings. Imagine what they could do, if Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond or Saruman could bend powerful monsters like the Balrog to their will. This was why Sauron obsessed over getting the Ring first.
_"Such unstated powers of the Ring..."_ Perhaps not expressly stated, but heavily implied. Galadriel's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo because of how she would become an object of worship among the people of Middle Earth if she had. Gandalf's and, perhaps more subtly, Aragorn's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo out of fear of what would happen if they did; that fear extending to how they would likely descend into despotism despite having good intentions. A despotism that would see them rule over others. Sam's fantasizing about turning Mordor into an agricultural paradise (obviously in need of tending by thousands of devoted gardeners) during his brief stint of bearing the Ring. I think there's sufficient evidence in the text to support the idea that, among the Ring's many powers, influence - if not outright control of others - could be counted among them. Quite possibly scaling in proportion to the will of the wielder.
Sauron probably understood he had tactical advantage anyway. He almost won on Pelinor field without even gathering his full force, and lost only because several factors all turned against him. If he managed to get Ring he would have succeeded on second try leaving only scattered and disorganized opposition. And without Ring his disembodied spirit could not control neither Smaug nor Balrog.
The Balrog was drawn only too Morgoth, a Valar, not to Sauron, its equal. The Balrog also had other policies and goals, probably content with ruling only Moria.
Not all Maiar are equal; just as any other race in middle earth. The power of the maiar vary vastly, just because a balrog is a maiar doesn’t make it an equal of Sauron’s.
Great vid! I think Smaug certainly- Gandalf definitely thought so, and saw it as imperative that Smaug was defeated before the free peoples fought against Sauron... I'd argue that Durin's Bane was not beyond his infulence either. Yes the balrog is also a maiar, but Sauron, along with Gothmog (the leader of the balrogs) were the greatest among these to fall along with Morgoth. Sauron however was a master strategist, and patient. While Sauron was likely powerful enough to command the balrog, certainly so while in possesion of the Ring, it did not awaken before his battle against the last alliance (when he was outmatched by the free peoples), and it's awakening was still around 400 years after his victory over the kingdom of Arnor. The real question to ask is "Did Sauron need too?" before the Last Alliance, the dwarves of Khazad dum (Durin's kin) were allied with Men and elves. During the fall of Eregion the Dwarves of Moria attacked and wailaid Sauron, allowing the escape of Elrond and Celebrimbor (who Sauron intended to wrest the locations of the other rings of power from) denying him total victory. Afterwards Sauron led a massive assault on Moria but was unssuccessful. After his defeat at The last alliance and his successful Northern campaign against the Witch King, the dwarves awoke the balrog and Moria was lost. The goal of his projection of power northward in the 3rd age was made with the intent of weakening and dividing Arnor and the scattered remnants of Durin's kin after the fall of Moria. The dwarves, while able to kill orcs, possessed no means to defeat the balrog. Despite multiple valiant efforts they were unnable to reastablish their stronghold until Durin's Bane was vanquished... So if Sauron could command the Balrog, why would he move it? Akin to Shelob, he only needed to leave Durin's Bane be and both parties benefited. Sauron had no need of increasing his direct power to defeat the free peoples (but for our heroes incredibly unlikely success; which Sauron deemed impossible he would win easily) and the dwarves regaining some of their former strength and numbers, (as well as control of the Misty Mountains) would leave a loose end that had bit him before, and could cause serious problems logistically. I'd argue that Durin's Bane was right where Sauron wanted him, or he otherwise may have moved the balrog somewhere else to gain an advantage. One of his most bitter enemies was crippled by simply leaving the balrog where it was.
Wrong, Sauron puts the goblins and black uruks under the control of the Balrog in Moria. Currently, in the book, Sauron uses the Balrog, but before he can reach his final goal, the balrog is killed by Gandalf the Gray, it is explained in the book...
Your analysis is quite sound. Excellent stuff! The only thing I'd disagree on is the thought that Sauron was too weak without the ring to coerce the Balrog. Sauron isn't just one of the strongest of the Maiar, he's _the_ strongest. Even without the ring he stands head and shoulders above all other Maiar, to the point where Gandalf the White (who describes himself as the most dangerous being Gimli would ever meet unless he came before Sauron himself) was almost broken by a remote contest of wills against him and wandered around in a daze for days afterwards. Sauron could probably have squashed Durin's Bane like a bug if he felt so inclined.
I think it’s more down to what the real concerns were for Sauron. He had the Nazgûl already, and likely deemed them an adequate counter to anything less than Galadriel or Glorfindel, who he probably figured would not take the field in any event given the option to return to Valinor. Moreover, if he had managed to bring the balrog into the fold, no one but those two could really deal with it, and encouraging Glorfindel to come to the war would have rallied more elves and possibly led to another alliance between elves and men. Remember that keeping his enemies divided, often by disguising how dangerous his army was growing to be, was a key strength to Sauron- it was critical for him that each settlement believed that the next would handle Sauron so that the could tip them one by one after Gondor. The same problem exists for Smaug, except that by recruiting him Sauron would have unified the dwarves against himself, and again the elves and men were content to leave the dragon in his mountain and give the dwarves no help with slaying it or retaking their home. Tactical powerhouses yes, but strategically declaring to the world that he had nukes would only have started an arms race that would have him staring down another last alliance style army with Glorfindel at the front, and he knew from experience that such a confrontation would end in disaster.
I have got one very good reason, because the balrog was basically dead. You can't actually kill them but you can render them basically impotent in the mortal realm. One thing I want to know is if the orks of Moria were loyal to him or to Sauron or maybe even The Witch King. Just because they feared it doesnt mean it wasn't their master. It would have been a general of ork legions in its past so they could be under his command.
Sauron and the Balrog were Maia, there power was probably equal to each other. So Sauron might not have wanted an 'allie' of the Balrogs power, that could 'challenge' him. Whilst he did 'allie' seemingly with Saruman, Saruman was constrained in his powers by the Valor (Although the wizards were Maia themselves)
10:15 - My gosh, ancient Batman fought with, and died for Gondor?!? 😲 Seriously though, thanks for the video! It's a reasonable theory why Sauron kept these other players "at arms length".
Though I am sorry to hear you use an AI voice but its a rather good one so hats off to your choice you've avoided the pitfalls of choosing the horrible robot sounding ones. It was a very well done video I enjoyed your take and I came to the same conclusions about why the Balrog was left in Moria. I'll be happy to look for your works in future.
Because they weren't his to use. You could equally ask why the Moria Balrog didn't use Sauron, as they were both Maia, and were both servants and weapons of Morgoth. You could argue that Gothmog, Morgoth's Lord of the Balrogs, although not more powerful than Sauron, was actually closer to Morgoth.
Yes. Gothmog in the Lord Of The Rings would have usurped Sauron from his throne if he was the Balrog hiding in Moria. As it is, the orcs in Moria were clearly under its command.
Absolutely, this question can be asked. In fact, answering it could be very intriguing. The only problem is that we know much more about Sauron compared to the Balrog
The main difference, is that we know a few things, and one is that Sauron served as Morgoth's Lieutenant. Durin's Bane served as a Captain of Morgoth's, while Gothmog Lord Of Balrogs was Morgoth's General. All of this is mentioned in the Silmarillion about Morgoth's military command structure. How Sauron fitted in is shown in the Lay of Beren and Luthien. All of his actions in that are all pretty much Black Ops stuff. Especially how he took out Beren's father. It means, Durin's Bane would be a War Chief in a Shadow of Mordor type game that focuses on the First Age, and would be the equivalent of Saruon's Ringwraiths. Gothmog would easily be the First Age equivalent of the Witch King of Angmar. @@middleearthtales
8:45 The high pass was not the same as the Caradhras, these were two different passes hundreds of miles apart. And only the northern one, the high pass, was under orc surveillance. (And even that is questionable, since most of the orcs from that pass came to the Battle of the Five Armies and were killed there.)
The high pass was watched by the Beornings, as Gimli (somewhat) or his father complained about. Mostly, they didn't want to pay the "stiff tolls" to pass that way but the pass was secure (until the war started). I think Sauron wanted to control everyone - him as master, his "servants" more or less his slaves. The Balrog, being at least in the same order, would be, at best, an uneasy alliance. Also, the Balrog may have been pretty smart - he saw the War of Wrath and probably figured that if he kept a low profile he could run his little kingdom without the Valar coming by to take him out. The Balrog probably thought Sauron was stupid - if Sauron was successful and conquered Middle Earth then the Valar would probably come and "War of Wrath" him into the void.
The Balrog was Chaotic Evil, as Sauron was more focused on Order. Any alignment between them - assuming they were victorious - would eventually lead to a power struggle. As Gandalf said to Saruman, "He does not share power" and indeed he would have either fought directly, or had the Balrog slain to remove any challenge to his dominance.
The key point here I think is the devastating loss of the One Ring and the resultant almost fatal loss of "self" (let's call it "power") for Sauron. Sauron was indeed one of the most "powerful" Maia, and as Marion he was considered most admirable before his seduction by Melkor. Following his corruption and fall, his defeats and his shames that culminated with the loss of the One Ring and the greater part of his own power, I suspect he would quite reasonably fear the Balrog and be content to "let sleeping dogs lie"...
Sauron in the First Age was the equal to Melian. It is stated, however, that the Balrogs were the greater in specific purposes, warfare and combat especially. Gothmog is specifically mentioned to be the most powerful of Balrogs in that fashion.
Sauron was most likely the most powerful of the Maiar, but I assume like the Valar, each had their power in certain "specialties". One might be more physically powerful, another's strength may be in controlling weather, animals or other aspects of nature. As previously mentioned, Balrog's were Melchor's shock troops and army leaders, so they were very powerful physically. Sauron's power was in influence and domination, he was likely weaker in combat terms than Durin's Bane. Sauron may not have known which Balrog Durin's Bane was and may also have been concerned that it may have been able to challenge his authority as Melchor's "heir". Also, given how Sauron had invested so much of his power in the ring, and had lost more after being "killed" by Isildur, even if he was originally stronger, he may have actually been weaker than the Balrog at the time if the war of the ring. At least until he had gathered his strength back. And maybe not even until he regained the one ring.
Great video, I very much enjoyed it. I've often wondered exactly this scenario you've put forth here. I agree with much of your interpretation of the relationship/character of both the Balrog and Sauron. I always considered Balrogs to be (as they're fallen Maiar) to be masters of sorcery and spells (in addition to being physically imposing and terrifying). After the fall of Morgoth in the First Age in the War of Wrath, I think that the Balrog (and any other potential ones, I always suspected that there must have been others), were more or less operating as "free agents" of evil, so to speak. Certainly Shelob did, much like Ungoliant in the First Age who was apparently never part of the Melkor hierarchy (where did *she* come from, btw?). Also I hadn't considered the loss of power Sauron experienced by *making* the One Ring as you indicated, great factor to consider! Great assessment, I really enjoyed it!
_"where did she come from, btw?"_ Ungoliant was the embodiment of the Primordial Void, the Eternal Darkness, and insatiable hunger. One Maiar, a cousin to the Balrog before their fall but who did not herself fall, was described as a spirit of flame; burning brighter and hotter than even the Balrog. It's heavily implied she takes the form of a star in the physical realm. In like but opposite manner, there's some inference that Ungoliant is akin to a Black Hole in nature if not in form. Whether she was created by Eru or simply has always been is unclear.
Sarumon was in communication with Sauron through the Palantir. Sarumon knew that Gandalf did not want to pass through the mountains and that he was well aware of the Balrog. It is possible there was an alliance with the Balrog, but it is likely it was just being used.
Talk about keep your enemies closer. I always found it interesting Sauron worrying about Smaug or The Balrog claiming the ring. What could they do with it? Smaug would just collect it and the Balrog would somehow harness the one ring’s power if he found it?
Sauron ain’t Morgoth my son. That’s my take. Although I think Sauron is a more tactile and patient strategist than Melkor. Eru’s Darkest son/ offspring functions on passion, anger, jealousy and fear. Ultimately the Valaraukar answered to their OG master first and foremost. Also, I think Sauron was too busy with ring craft and fucking over Númenor to put effort into such things. There’s only so many hours in the day. I do agree that he probably thought about it and ultimately decided to not risk an alliance that could potentially lead to him having a rival.
Don't see how the Balrog could have possibly been a BETTER ally. Dude wiped out Balin's colony, then killed Gandalf.. only *direct intervention* from Illuvatar prevented Sauron's victory!
Very nice video, ... they were equals as Maia, however Sauron was likely more powerful than Balrogs leading the armies in the first age for Morgoth, I see that Sauron learnt the art of deceiving from his master Morgoth, which ultimately seems like a very advance strategy, I don't remember about Balrogs showing a intelectual property of such level, so could they have been more like just melee weapons after the corruption... nonetheless ... you state very well the strategic position by Durin's Bane at the mystic mountains ... keeping the Dwarfs scattered around middle-earth would make for them hard to reunite the armies strength ... they certainly would fight by their own means against anyone that opposes them ... they were already corrupted.
@thehellyousay dude, sauron was literally morgorths chief agent, before melkor established his fortresses in middle earth, he feed information to him and once angband and utumno were established he was given command of angband as well as helping in the creation of the orcs, one of the reasons why sauron was able to "prefect" there design in the Uruks. He was also counted as the "greatest of [Morgoth's] servants that have names" indicating a primacy over all other servants of Morgoth, including gothmog and the balrogs. Gothmog was only the "front line lieutenant" whereas sauron was entrusted not just to lead armies but whole campaigns which is more important than leading armies and was trusted to be given significant stragetic goals to achieve to weaken Morgoths enemies such as the slaying of Barahir, ally of Finrod. Only after his defeat by Huan the the success of the quest for the silmaril did he hide out of fear of reprisal from Morgoth. Also from an etymological perspective, which is important as Tolkien was a linguist, the chief lieutenant would be of a higher rank than any general or captain as lieutenant in French means place holding and since Sauron was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, he was for all intents and purposes his dedicated second in command and had authority over all his other commanders, generals, captains and other officers and leaders in the absance of Morgoth and even then his authority could only be countermanded by a direct command of Morgoth. But it's rather moot as the balrogs seemed to be similar to the olog hai trolls, lacking significant will without the direct influence of Morgoth as when he was held prisoner in valinor, they are specifically said to be hibernating after fleeing to angband from utumno, only waking after Morgoth summons them to attack ungoliant implying they need morgoth to will them into activity, baring self preservation as in the case of Durins Bane as he had been "hibernating" beneath kazad-dum and only after being awakened did it act. They only seem to become truly active when Morgoth is active and directing them to a specific goal and when he is not they seem to just do nothing.
Can you please do a video on the Host of the Valar, that group of powerful warriors assembled in Valinor that sailed West to engage Morgoth and his dreaded forces during the War of Wrath. What was the host composed of, did Gandalf and Saruman fight in that war in their Maia forms? I hope this topic is of interest to your channel.
We don't know, working only from the LOTR text, that Sauron had no alliance with the balrog. Plan A may have been for the balrog to lead an attack on Lorien at the same time as the war against Gondor. Sauron was on at least plan B after Saruman cease to cooperate and may have been down to plan C.
I think aura sing is up there as my favourite .. 1 scene of her standing next to a pod race track in a phantom menace and now she’s a force sensitive bounty hunter working with boba fett and cad bane
Nice video. And you really did your research well However, let me tell some of my thoughts regarding the matter. I dont think that sauron was much bothered about Elrond. Remember that Rivendell is a 'house'; a very big and peculiar house, but nevertheless a house. There are not many people there to form an army and march out. Sauron was very much concerned about Galadriel and Lothlorien, but not that much about anything west of the mountains. Additionally the high pass is cleared and maintained by the Beorians by the time of the books. (The reason that they dont take the high pass is because they are moving in the dead of winter andthe high pass is further north and well, high. It was blocked till the spring. In regard to the general topic. I dont think the balrog would serve sauron. He is a maia of melkor and owe allegiance to no one else. And it seems that the whole purpose of of the balrogs is to serve Melkor. They have no ambition of their own. The balrog just sleeps and when awaken, just hangs there. He has no purpose other than just stay tgere and kill anything that comes there
I believe the main reasons are the ones you identified: risking teasing another Maia before having full control of his own powers would have been more of a risk than a help, Sauron is very afraid that an entity capable of competing with him will enter into possession of the Ring. He fears Galadriel, he fears "even" Aragorn, so it is conceivable that he would much rather use the Balrog as an obstacle to free peoples than see him wandering the same lands over which the One Ring travels. Furthermore, just as there are tribes of orcs in the East who mock Sauron and refuse to serve him as they are loyal to Morgoth, we can imagine that even more so a Balrog would have refused, perhaps angry, when faced with such a proposal.
I have read that the Balrogs only took orders from Melkor/Morgoth in person, and that a Balrog probably being a former maia of Aulë, would see itself as Saurons equal, since Sauron also was a former maia of Aulë. Also the Balrog must know that Glorfindel who slew Gothmog lord of the balrogs still lived in Rivendell.The Balrog of Moria/Durins bane knew he was powerful, but he also knew that he could be killed.
I believe Balrogs did not originate as being maiars belonging to any of the Valar of valinor, rather they originated as Maiar who existed outside of the "world" during the music of creation, who like the Valar partook in the music. When Melkor sowed his own discord in Eru's music, those Maiar joined with Melkor. Meaning, they were Melkor's very own Maiar.
Balrogs did not fear any elf, they would throw themselves at the spider of the void herself, a being greater than even Melkor himself. if you think they would shy away from some elf you're severely underestimating them.
As an added note, being Melkors own personal maiar, they had no allegiances to any being other than Melkor himself. Durins bane were awaiting his masters return, it was only stirred into action because a powerful foe had invaded its resting place. Sauron did not have the authority to command the Balrogs if Melkor were not around. They would not be disposed to follow Saurons plans if those plans did not originate with their master. Durins bane would not bother to interfere with Sauron either way, it would be content to remain hidden at the roots of the world until the end times, it was not a rival, ally, subject or adversery to Sauron, but a neutral party.
Actually, that's a common misconception. The Balrog is indeed a formidable foe, but it's not a Maia. It's a type of ancient spirit known as a Maiar. Sauron, on the other hand, is a Maia. And while the Balrog is powerful, it's generally considered that Sauron, especially with the One Ring, holds a higher level of power and influence in Middle-earth.
@@ewarquirocarpio9061 I thought Maiar is the plural of Maia?
Why must the Balrog know about Glorfindel?
@@silverchairsg correct. Some folks need to read the Silmarillion, then they won't be incorrect
I like that Gandalf mentioned the possibility of the dragon teaming up with Sauron.
What conversation between the Balrog and Sauron would boil down to…
Sauron: “Hey buddy, remember me?”
Balrog: *confused* Mairon, is that you?”
Sauron: “Yep. Long time no see. Ya look great, how are you?”
Balrog: “I’m fine old friend. I should be the one asking that.
Sauron: *confused* “Come again?”
Balrog: “What, are you not use it mirrors anymore? You look terrible, your aura is smaller and you feel weak in power.” *genuine concern* “What happened to you? Your face, your hair, your hand?”
Sauron: “It’s a long story, but to summarize; I made ring to enhance my power and even bound my soul to it but lost it and “died” about 3,000 years ago but I’m better now.”
Balrog: “You bound yourself to a ring? Gothmog and Boldog were right, you truly *are* an idiot.”
Sauron: *desperately trying to get to the point out of impatience* “Whatever, I stayed up the old empire in Mordor. You in or out?”
Balrog: “Are Lord Melkor, Cpt. Gothmog, Kosmot, or even the pale Balrog around?”
Sauron:”…N…no.”
Balrog: “Then get lost ya ember haired pretty boy. And leave me in peace.”
Sauron: *utterly done* “You dare speak to me in such a manner? Dare disobey me!? Listen well, you oversized…”
Balrog ascends to true high, form and power:*cuts him off* “No *YOU* listen to *ME,* you deformed usurping weasel!” “I DON’T take orders from YOU! I only obey Melkor, Gothmog, or my Balrog kin! And *they* are all gone. Get off my lawn, and don’t come back.
Sauron powering up: *stern yet raspy voice* “You DON’T want to do this.”
Balrog: “Don’t bother, Mairon. We both know what happened the last time you fought a Balrog in single combat. And you were *much* stronger back then. Go home and leave me be In my home.”
When I first read the part, I loved that the evil world is also multifaceted and dynamic. I felt that added so much depth and reality to the world Tolkien created.
The balrogs probably werent huge fans of Sauron. They followed Melkor even before the ainulindale, but Sauron only defected at the end of the years of the lamps, which lasted 50% of the entire history of Arda. He immediately took rank over them becoming Morgoths Lieutenant.
good point
good point
Sauron owed them money as well. After a few hundred years, the Balrogs were like, "eff this guy."
Lamps? Those are trees of light.
@@RavenHart-sx8xs They were trees of light until Ungoliant consumed them with the help of Melkor, then what remained of them was fashioned into the "Lamps". Also, at least according to the encyclopedia of arda, the poster is incorrect in the duration of Sauron's allegiance, he was working for Melkor in one form or another even before the darkening of the Valar and the start of the first age, which predates the creation of the Balrogs and dragons IIRC.
Sauron was already terrified that Saruman might claim the ring for his own. And Saruman even in his treachery, was limited as an Istari. The Balrog was a fully-powered Maia though. And had given itself to darkness for even more power. So it's natural that the last thing Sauron wanted was the Balrog getting any ideas of claiming the ring for its own.
gandalf was also an istari and considered less powerful than saruman at the time but managed to slay the balrog tho.
@@Dunkelelf3 A Barlog that managed to kill Gandalf is still pretty powerful though. A shadowflame powered Maia that was not morally or physically limited in any way. It could still harness and use the full power of the ring on top of its own. Perhaps even in ways that even Sauron could not. It might be less powerful than a ring-bearing Gandalf or ring-bearing Saruman. But it probably still would overpower a half-powered ringless Sauron. Or at least directly challenge him
@@dimitris470 also Gandalf was wielding Narya, yet Durins Bane was able to match him in combat.
Don't forget Glamdring!
@@Dunkelelf3isn’t Gandalf more powerful than both Saruman and Sauron but a lot more humble in his abilities etc. Also Maiar and Istari are one and the same.
It seems clear that Sauron wanted to RULE Middle Earth not destroy it, while its very likely that the Balrog would want to DESTROY the very lands and people that Sauron seeks to rule. And the Balrog being of immense, if not equal power, may not have been something that Sauron was willing to challange. Same holds true with Smaug and Shlob, those to lesser extent.
Agreed.
Sauron wants to conquer and rule everything, but the Balrog comes across as the sort of creature that a) Would just want to destroy everything in sight indiscriminately, and b) Is almost completely uncontrollable. It's not an attack dog that can be tamed, it's more like a rabid bear.
haha Shlob
@@Adamguy2003The balrogs could be tamed by Morgoth, the one who corrupted them. But not by Sauron, especially not without the One Ring.
I don't believe that he fully controlled Saruman either. Saruman simply saw no victory against Sauron. But he would have rebelled (and failed) if he ever got ahold of the Ring himself. He was in it for himself, Durin's Bane even more so. But none of them would have dared to rebel against Morgoth.
@@doubleog6149I actually am guilty of finding this hilarious as well 😅
Haha had to laugh when I've read shlob.
It's amazing how someone wrote a bunch of fantasy books about stuff that is not real, yet it's so fun to go deep on it
Well it's basically lawful evil versus chaotic evil. Aligned in one way but totally incompatible in another.
Both are evil and all evil is chaotic as only good, the order set out by God/Eru is ordered
I can see what you’re saying, but this isn’t Dungeons and Dragons or some other typical fantasy. In Tolkien’s world, I believe good and evil are much more black and white and don’t fall so much into the lawful, neutral, chaotic, etc tropes. Identifying characters as lawful evil or chaotic evil is a fine way to classify things from a reader’s point of view, but I don’t think it applies so much to Tolkien’s world from an in-universe perspective.
@@Fellow_Followerso what you're saying is that the readers are practically... an innie!
Indeed both dark lords has different objectives Melkor wanted the complete destruction of Arda and perhaps all of creation Sauron just wanted to bend middle earth to his will even with the one ring he knew he was outclassed ans outmatched by the Valar residing in Valinor even if he had the whole of middle earth as his army.
Sauron might not want a situation like what happened between Ungoliant and Morgoth to happen again.
@ClumzorZ Excellent point
That or they were allied and working together until he was killed by Mithrandir.
I guess he learned a lot from his old boss 😅
"meh", not really relevant allegory but i get the idea. A duo who dispute and kill each other (or more likely Sauron fearing the Balrog could rebel)
@@Toto-95not sure you know the meaning of allegory my guy.😂
The ultimate doomsday scenario for late Third Age Middle Earth would have been if Durin's Bane had overcome Gandalf, slain the whole Fellowship, and taken the One Ring. At that point, I think the situation for all factions in the War of the Ring would have been so dire that the Free Peoples and Sauron would have had to form a VERY uneasy and temporary alliance just to stop the Ring-enhanced Balrog...
But would a balrog even desire the ring? 6:55 they seem to me as well to just be pure evil and mindless brawlers.
Seeng Durin's Bane slaughter everyone frodo panicked and puts the ring on only to still be seen and struck down all the while Sauron instantly finds him. After killing everyone the balrog goes back to take a nap and Sauron sends his smallest and fastest orc to retrieve the ring.
A “what if” episode. Intriguing to think about the possibilities.
Nope Balrog were of lesser God/Angel status and same form of being as Gandalf and Sauron. And it was the Balrog's counter spell the broke Gandalf's door bar. So it very smart. And certainly would want to use the Ring to make it self the ruler of Middle Earth not Sauron. @@NexusGameEnt
@@milferdjones2573 magic in Tolkien's universe doesn't require a high cognition as it's emanated through strength of words and spirit. The only balrog I can imagine to have the ambition of a darklord would've been Gothmog since he was their leader and held a high position similar to Sauron. Durin's Bane didn't establish a seat of power in Moria when he fled there he just killed everyone when he woke up this is why I believe the ring would be ignored the guy only had a desire to sleep and not be disturbed by Eru's children. He only left the goblins in khazadum be because they too descend from his master Morgoth
I mean, we assume he didn't have a plan. But do we know that?
I am struck by the fact that the Watcher in the Water slammed the gates of Moria, caused a cave-in and ripped out the trees to lock the Company inside. Water is also opposite of fire, the nature of the Balrog. Maybe the Watcher was originally placed to keep the Balrog inside Moria. Galadriel is not far away on the other side. It looks like the Balrog was pretty well contained.
It’s a nameless thing that like climbed up the tunnels made by the dwarves from like super deep dark in u defraud pools, creatures like it also have lived down there since the creation of middle earth
Would Galadriel fair well against the Balrog? Besides her ring she is an above average elf who is most likely a lot less powerful than Gandalf who is known to be as powerful as Sauron without the ring.
@@mitchjames9350dude, she killed an ice troll in less than 10 seconds lmao
@dandan4092 that was only in a fanfic
@@dandan4092 in what rings of power the made up garbage from Amazon.
If we look at the source material we can see that Tolkien went on and about how the Maia are powerful spirits with different amount of power and how their power changes with their form. Tarindor (Sarumans old moniker) for example was so strong that he was chosen - together with Melian and the other guardians - to keep the elves save from Melkor (the strongest of all the Ainur). Later on he had not as much power because he was clothed in a specific disguise. Sauron lost his form many times - once due to Huán and Luthien, then later due to Numenór and then due to Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur. The Balrog in Moria was one of the few who survived all the battles that killed most of its kind in Beleriand and hid himself. Not from Sauron though, who also was thinking about going back to the Valar. Remember that he went to Eonwe and asked him to be forgiven and be taken back into Aules service, but Eonwe told him he couldnt accept him and that only the Valar could do that. Sauron was also disgraced by his defeat at Tol Sirion and we never hear from him again in the wars in Beleriand thereafter, so its save to assume that he lost his high position at Morgoths court, while the Balrogs always stayed the "bodyguards" and "shock-troops" of the dark tower and - as such - high in favor. Also Sauron has no leverage for the Balrog. It has no loyalty to him or his plans. The balog was just a neutral party that waited until Morgoth came back or he would hear the call of Morgoth again.
Sauron was able to dominate other Maia as we see with Saruman, who - although weakened and not able to use his full power - fell partly under his spell. The Balrog is fully empowered and i reckon Sauron knew that the Balrog was in Moria. He also knew of Smaug in the Lonely Mountain and kept him there without any contact. So why wouldnt Sauron take the chance to unleash the Balrog? He sure would love to see him coming down on Rivendell or Lothlorien and weaken the elvish domains there, but he wasnt able to control him properly. And Sauron - in essence - always was a being of what? Order. Control. Like most of Aules creatures he loved to create, control and order things and that is what he did. He was not Morgoth with his idea to destroy what he could not have. He wanted to control and order it so that it all went orderly under his tutelage and eyes. The Balrog in essence was a lap dog for Morgoth but not for Sauron. So i think Sauron was happy that the Balrog sat inside Moria and kept to himself.
The biggest problem for Sauron IMHO is also from the source material. Sauron, the balrogs, and the dragons were all roughly equals under morgoth and came from the same status before they were corrupted,. They're equally powerful in different ways (besides smaug, he's the youngest, smallest, and weakest of the dragons) and owe no allegiance to each other. Sauron can't control or coerce either of them when he can barely even manifest himself as a floating fireball on a stick without the ring, the best move he could make was leaving them where they sat. They kept two dwarven nations from rebuilding, and their presence attracted plenty of orks, wargs, trolls, and other beasts that would cause problems for the neighbouring elves and humans.
tldr: he could kill two sticks with one bird by leaving them alone
I see that both Sauron and Durin's Bane were both Maiar and probably saw each other as equals more than Sauron seeing him as someone to dominate. Plus, in order for Sauron to influence Durin's Bane, he needed the one ring to do so since he wasn't at his full power and Durin's Bane was.
The absolute power of the armies that Morgoth could field was just immense. He leisurely sent balrogs and dragons to accompany armies of hundreds of thousands of orcs. Once, he even sent Balrogs on top of dragons...
Sauron never had even a fraction of that power. Then again, he didn't have to fight against the still powerful dwarven empires, the still prominent elves of middle earth, the noldor and even the Valar themselves.
could only be defeated by the host of valinor, the strongest tangible force in creation.
Budget not enough, they demanded too much and also came with extensive union restrictions, so Mordor opted to do everything in-house.
Sauron couldn't control the Balrog, not reliably, and couldn't risk losing control of his minions during dfforts to dominate the Balrog. Since he couldn't guarantee dominating it, a creature nearly at an equal level of raw power, he left the Balrog to sow it's own chaos. There's no way Sauron would trust a voluntary alliance with the Balrog, and I believe he feared lest the Balrog usurp his Ring before he could find it and secure possession.
I doubt that they were equal or almost equal. Otherwise, Gandalf himself could have just taken on Sauron, since he defeated the Balrog.
@@gojewla Except that it's apples and oranges. One could make the argument the Balrog is a more powerful martial threat than Sauron. But Sauron isn't playing by those rules. He never takes to the field of battle except as a last resort. Sauron's way is the way of water rather than of fire, of slow erosion, of corruption.
Gandalf knows this. It's why the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth rather than a host from Arda as was done with Morgoth; because Sauron can't be defeated by force of arms. Any such "defeat" is temporary as Sauron's spirit lives on through his Ring to eventually reform itself.
Gandalf knows that to fight Sauron is to lose; even if he was capable of "defeating" him in a duel based on his success against the Balrog. Sauron can only be defeated through misdirection, subterfuge, and his own overbearing arrogance leveraged against him (i.e. refusing to accept that anyone could ever bring themselves to destroy the Ring in an effort to destroy him).
The Balrog is powerful within its domain; direct martial combat. Quite possibly more powerful than Sauron. But Sauron is more powerful within his domain - corruption, manipulation, patience, and long-term strategy - than the Balrog. And, given that time is on Sauron's side along with the fact he can't be destroyed while the Ring exists, Sauron always wins in the end; even in the face of a superior martial foe.
So it _could_ be argued the Balrog is equal or even more "powerful" than Sauron; but only if one is using a very primitive definition of power as _"one who can hit harder with a flaming sword"_ versus _"an immortal who can manipulate the fortunes of entire civilizations across millennia to achieve long-term goals."_
Now run this alt-history: Gollum tries to hide in Moria. He loses the ring to Durin's Bane.
Durin's Bane sulking over the ring because his fingers are too fat to put it on
@@SergeiBash Lol, but the ring varied in size, fit for a hobbit or human.
I am convinced that Tolkien never entertained the idea that the Balrog or Smaug would ever bother to align themselves with Sauron. It is similar to Tom Bombadil or the many other characters or powers in Middle Earth. It was probably Tolkien’s intention that these characters or figures be nothing more than additional powers that would remain unaligned, and be more caught up with their own self-interest. In Sauron’s weakness, without the One Ring, it’s likely the Balrog could have possibly surpassed Sauron, if it struck the Balrog’s fancy. When reading TLOTR and watching the movies I had always thought of the Balrog as a sort of entity of darkness who lacked agency, like a sort of berserker. Like I never got the idea that the Orcs and fowl creates of Moria _served_ the Balrog but sort of held the Balrog in a fearful reverence, like the Balrog was just as likely to kill them as command them to do anything. It seems like the Orcs of Moria sort of drove the Fellowship toward the Balrog then ran off, like the orcs were leaving an offering to their vengeful god.
We don't know much about the nature of balrogs. They were once Maiar, yes, but it seems that Melkor changed them into these fire demons to serve his purposes. It's possible that they were more like animals than sentients, as seen in the way the balrog that eventually came to Moria and hid for such long ages after it was logically necessary. We get little sense that it has much of what we would call consciousness or awareness, let alone further territorial ambition. The Dwarves forced it into action, but once it had Moria under its sway, it just sat there. Without Melkor driving it, it had only an animal-like satisfaction in staying put in its den. It doesn't plan, it doesn't speak, it shows few signs of being a thinking as opposed to instinctual creature. So it's possible that Sauron couldn't make an alliance with a balrog. At best, as you suggest, it was like Shelob, useful to him where it was (assuming he was even aware of it).
Always thought they subsumed themselves into the world, so to speak, became part of the physical world. Like elves choosing to stay and adopting mortality, it's a big choice. Their nature changed.
They were sentient, if not ciivilized. They led armies, they "boasted" of kills.
gothmog was morgoth's general, the other balrogs morgoth's captains, sauron morgoth's lieutenant. either might have been able to dominate smaug, a considerably lesser dragon than glaurung or ancalagon the black were, or maybe not. dragons were morgoth's pet weapons project, after all.
I think your interpretation is completely wrong. I don't know Tolkien's lore deeply but from what I know, Balrogs are sentient and intelligent. In the books, it's said that they can talk, negotiate terms, lead armies etc. Also in the book, Durins Bane not only fought with Gandalf physically, but also using magic. He casted counter spells which nearly broke Gandalf.
@@anshadedavana You may be right, but I can't think of an occasion where they spoke, at least in anything canonical (i.e. published in Tolkien's lifetime). So much of what we think we know with Tolkien is just provisional, what he's thinking at the moment, and he could always change his mind. For instance, in the Book of Lost Tales there are many Balrogs attacking Gondolin, but in later writing he said there were probably no more than three Balrogs ever. Even the "fact" that they are Maiar, though widely accepted, isn't in any of the canonical books.
It probably says something that Gandalf felt Smaug needed to be taken out before the War of the Ring started, but with Durin's Bane he was content to just get the Fellowship away from it (before he also fell and had to commit to finishing the fight, anyway). There was a very real concern that Sauron could have recruited Smaug, but Gandalf doesn't seem to feel the same about the balrog stalking Moria's ruins. I suspect it's a case of Sauron likely being unable to control a balrog, a fellow Maia, especially in his current weakened state. And even without it Sauron had this war in the bag, so no need to take a risk by working with a being with the power to potentially usurp him.
The reason for this was because the Balrogs were, and arguably rightfully so, afraid that the Valar would show back up to finish what they started when they marched on Morgoth and sunk Beleriand beneath the ocean in so doing. The Silmarillion makes it pretty clear this was the reason they hid in the deepest, most hidden and inhospitable places in the world. If you are willing to go that far to survive, then it makes sense that the Balrog would prioritize drawing as little attention as possible.
It's likely that Sauron could have and even might have offered an alliance and was just flat out refused, as the Balrog were still fearful of the Valar. If it wasn't, it didn't really have a reason to remain in Moria, and the others wouldn't have a reason to remain hidden either. That is, of course, if Sauron even knew the Balrog was in Moria, which is never truly confirmed or not.
It's not clear to me what Gandalf knew about Durin's Bane. He knew something was there, but did he know that it was a Balrog? The text in LOTR suggests that it was a nasty surprise to him.
Gotta say, since I first stumbled upon your videos, I have thoroughly enjoyed each and every one. Thank you for your time and efforts
Why thank you! I really appreciate it 🙏
Durin's Bane and Sauron would have known each other right? They both served Morgoth during his time. So these two probably shared a beer at the bar after torturing and murdering elves every friday night when they were serving.
Sauron saw the Balrog's potential as a great rival instead of ally even if Sauron willingly allied himself with lesser maiar like Saruman.
The Balrog and Shelob did play their parts. I think Eru Iluvatar played a much bigger role in the quest than anyone gives him credit for. As God of All Eru not only brought back Gandalf as the White, led the ring to Frodo, Frodo and Sam to Mordor, and Gollum to destroy the ring, but I think the run ins with The Balrog and Shelob were set up by Eru too. How else would Gandalf get his much needed power boost, and I don't see Frodo having the strength to cross into Mordor, so being unconscious and dragged across the border was probably best for his sanity.
But the balrog was made by morgoth not eru and Shelob is said to be the offspring of ungoliant who’s origins is unknown even to the valar and Gandalf came back as the white because Saruman abandoned his mission and got corrupted and the valar had chosen Gandalf has the leader of the Istari but Gandalf told them Saruman was the better choice and they accepted there’s only one instance in the whole history of arda were Eru himself intervened and it wasn’t against any of the dark lords it was against men that rebelled against him he was fine with what melkor and Sauron were doing to arda but got really pissed off at men for wanting immortality Eru is kinda of asshole.
@@imjennasidel6703Morgoth couldn't create, only corrupt. Eru indeed created the Maiar who later became balrogs. As the creator of everything he could just do a reboot and start over at any point, so yeah he was kinda indifferent for the most part. As we know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even God.
And the more he intervened the more it takes away from the agency of his creations. It ruins the stakes. It's enough that he reshaped Arda and brought Gandalf back.
@@imjennasidel6703 Specifically eru got pissed off at men for worshipping melkor with human sacrifices of people faithful to the elves and valar, waging war on the valar and elves and and probably most importantly, breaking the ban they had on the undying lands or, they tried to enter heaven while living. More specifically, trying to enter an elven heaven and defile it.
The ideology of a omniscient god isn't one of having your hand held all throughout life, it's one wherein the help you need will be rendered through physical form. You aren't here to experience eternal bliss, you're here to go through a journey and struggle.
I'm not religious nor do I have deep understanding of any religion but it just seems very obvious that the criticism of "if god exists why do children suffer" is well, a complete refusal to engage with any degree of empathy.
Why would the Balrog work under a Maia that abandoned Melkor and hide during the latter years of the First Age and didn't help during the War of Wrath. Sauron likely didn't want the Balrog know that he instilled a portion of his power in a ring that he lost and was afraid the Barlog would try to seize the ring for himself.
I would also surmise that some of the goblins of Moria were watching for the ring bearer but kept the Barlog uninformed about it since the goblins waited until the Fellowship had spent days moving through Moria and were only a few hours from the East Gate before attacking. No way they didnt keep watch throughout Moria. Once the Balrog might have been alerted by the noise in the Throne room they attacked early to try to capture the ring and flee to the East Gate with it. Highly speculative but it explains the goblins being seemingly oblivious that they were there for days.
where are you getting this tale of sauron's betrayal and desertion of morgoth from? and did not the balrog also flee to hide at the roots of a mountain?
@@thehellyousay "where are you getting this tale " LMAO Condescend much?
that's a really good theory!
@@thehellyousay Silmarillion. Sauron was Morgoth's 2nd in command.
Sauron captured and tortured Beren. Galadriel's brother, Finrod sacrificed himself to save Beren in the dungeon. When Lúthien came with Huan the hound to saved Beren, Huan defeated Sauron's minions and then shapeshifting Sauron himself.
Sauron fled and hid until the 2nd Age. He did not return to his master, Morgoth to assist him and the Balrogs nor did he help during the War of Wrath. The Balrog fled presumably during the War of Wrath when he knew that Morgoth lost hiding in the mountains.
The Balrog likely would not help someone who he worked under who then fled and hid from the boss, Morgoth, and didn't help when the Valar's forces arrived for the War of Wrath.
The Balrog would be very interested in combining his power with the part of Sauron's power instilled in the One Ring.
1. Because he didn't know about it
2. Because he couldn't contact it
3. Because it didn't want to help
4. Because Sauron was terrified of the possibility of someone else using his Ring and until he had it back, he was vulnerable to being overthrown. Having the balrog in his ranks would a greater liability than an asset because it could very easily have just decided to kill him and take his place as ruler of Mordor
I would like to add a small correction on point 4 - If the Balrog took the ring it would eventually enslave the Balrog to it (Sauron's soul). It would tempt it with visions of conquest and glory, perhaps even impersonating Melkor, drawing it out of Moria. Remember, the ring is powerful enough to easily corrupt Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, even Tom Bombadail.
I don't think Saruman even understood what he was dealing with. In the books, he became "Saruman of many colors" and it was quite clear he wasn't quite... All there. The ring falling into his hands would be the end of him.
Gandalf himself stated in the story "The Quest Of Erebor" that Sauron would have had the Balrog and Smaug ( "Imagine fire & sword in the North") as part of his strategy to defeat the Free Peoples of Middle Earth.
i've seen a couple of your videos recently and thoroughly enjoy the depth and detail they go in to. i doubt that an AI would be able to provide the sound reasoning that you do. i look forward to checking out more of your work!
It's so obviously an AI generated script, voice, and all the art, too. Within the first minute it says that "...the valinor finally resolved to confront the dark force of melkor...". Actually, they are called "the Valar", and Valinor is the land in which they live.
A very thoughtful insight into an intriguing topic. I agree with every aspect of your commentary!!
Simple answer
If someone with the same rank and security clearance gives u orders… would u do it? U dont have to … so u just dont
They are literally equals
both servants of Morgoth
Wasn't the Balrog a "Balrog of Morgoth" and Sauron was also a servant of Morgoth. So there is no reason to assume these two servants would team up. Once Morgoth was banished to the Abyss, they pursued their own particular agenda's.
Sauron may have been using Durin's bane to take out Gandalf.
However, Illuvitar intervened and sent Gandalf back.
Seems the Balrog agenda was getting lots of sleep.
@@jeffreyp1855 Or you could argue' he had gone on to standby mode until the return of Morgoth, hiding in the roots of the Misty Mountain.
what's with the unnecessary apostrophes?
@@mojebi3804 Wrong forum you want spelling and grammer'.
Wow that an AI voice. Ai voice are getting pretty good didn't realize.
Its pretty obvious to me. Balrogs don't likely make real good employees. My guess is they are prone to being insubordinate. The Balrog would probably think Sauron need to be its employee. And had the Balrog been able to get the one ring, then Sauron WOULD have been its employee, not the other way round.
They are known for their union strikes.
Yeah, the balrog's becoming corrupted wouldn't exactly be a big shift.
I believe it was said in the books in the Moria part that there were larger orcs of a different breed in with the goblins that attacked the fellowship, I was always under the impression that those were Mordor orcs who were there as support and eyes for Sauron. I'm not 100% sure that that was what they were, but it makes sense.
Sauron use Shelob as a guard, he would not be able to intimidate the Balrog and who would have seen itself as a power and so he adopted the same approach, let them have their lair, until he gets the ring.
I think it is more then that. Sauron was defeated once alreadyx and now did not even have the ring. The balrog could have been a real danger to rauson and a very unsure ally at best. From a risk/reward angle that makes no sense to even try.
There's no reason to suggest Sauron even knew a Balrog still existed, they were all presumed destroyed in the Host of Valinor during the final battle of the War of the Wrath which destroyed Beleriand. As far as he or anyone else knew their physical forms were destroyed and their spirits dragged back to Valinor for the doom of Manwe.
Gandalf knew, So Sauron definitely knew too
"you don't have enough badges to control me"
Given that various Balrogs were slain by elves over the centuries. Gandulf before his power up slew the Balrog even at the price of his own corporal form being broken in doing so. This suggests that in power the Balrog would be less powerful than Saruman. Glorfindel had already slain a Balrog and presumably Gladriel would also have been able to withstand the Balrog.
Top level Elf were demigods effectively themselves and some full out Gods effectively, by the time of the Lord of the Rings they were all except one or two over the Sea in the Undying Land. Their greatest warrior King able to give Morgoth a fight and he was way more powerful than and minor God as he was major and the most powerful Major to boot.
Lord of the Rings being based on Christianity has the mystery of why does Heaven not send it's hosts to battle evil on Earth. After the end of the first Age the Major Gods and the highest type of Elf along with all the minor Gods will not come to help in Middle Earth again except by stealth Wizards who are forbidden to use their base form powers to fight Sauron directly.
14 Major Gods if I got the number right and all the super elf and minor gods could come to Middle Earth and curb stomp Sauron with ease his servants probably just running away.
Gandalf only bested the Balrog because he had the elven ring of fire plus the Balrog took immense dmg from the fall and depowered by the water.
@@milferdjones2573Valar refuse to involve themselves because their power is earth shattering. That and this was a battle dor mortal men to prove themselves.
the Balrog was like: fuck off Sauron! I'm sleeping!
The Balrog was hiding, in the end. I don't think it would have been as interested in making brothers in arms as much as it was in just finding the right place to chill and getting everyone else to get the hell out of his lawn while he's trying to sleep. Sauron would've known the Balrog would've been as welcoming to him as it was to everybody else.
Fantastic question and video! Exemplary content! Thank you!
Way I see it is Sauron only had use for creatures he could dominate through intimidation and fear, their fear being an assurance that they would not betray him or that they’d do their best to not disappoint him.
Sauron probably knew that a Balrog of Morgoth wouldn’t fear him and so subjugating it would be almost impossible.
Sauron making a deal and entering an alliance with the balrog could have been a possibility but maybe Sauron didn’t think it was worth the effort and in his weakened state maybe he thought the balrog wouldn’t think him worthy enough to ally with.
I'm not an expert but if Gandalf could kill the Balrog (although it also cost him) surely Sauron could have confronted it at least to test out its allegiance? Everyone says Sauron was weakened but he seems to me to be more powerful than Saruman and Gandalf? Maybe like most people suggest it was perhaps too close of a battle potentially and if the Balrog just sat in Moria that was also serving a purpose for him.
If Sauron could even find a Balrog, would he trust a Balrog without first having his Ring?
I doubt it.
At the height of his power under Morgoth, I don't think he controlled the Balrogs, I'm pretty sure they fell soley under Gothmog, who probably acted as another of Morgoths lieutenants as well as the leader of all Balrogs.
After the fall of Morgoth, there were very few Balrogs that escaped, and they hid themselves in very deep dark places. They wouldn't be easy to find, and if found, would they even follow his commands?
Are most AI voiced videos created by a chatGP type program, or is a transcript just read by someone that doesn’t want to be on camera? Genuinely asking because I tend to avoid AI voices videos but this seems well written with accurate content and insight.
Dunno, but it's annoying. I prefer actual people talking to me
if you are not Melkor himself, you don't just use Balrogs. Ask Melkor.
Balrogs were Melkor's creatures! Especially since Balrogs were also Maiar before the alliance with Melkor.
Sauron could only have gained the support of the Balrogs if they had voluntarily joined Sauron.
It really makes one wonder if Sauron, at his full strength, could ever have forced the Balrogs to serve him.
On the other hand, Sauron (Mairon) was initially probably the strongest Maiar.
Still defeated by Huan and Luthien.
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After Sauron lost the ring, Sauron's power diminished massively.
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It was similar but somewhat different and not quite as unsuccessful with Melkor.
Melkor was also at the top of the hierarchy among the Valar, next to Manwe, perhaps even above Manwe, since he shared in the gifts of all the Valar, but Melkor could and was defeated by Tulkas.
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It's similar with the Maiar.
"I am dragon!" Lmfao
It's good to clarify about the A.I usage, people just want to know that it was guided by a human mind. I liked the video and found the information thought provoking on the material, thank you.
I wonder why Sauron didn’t field armies of undead since he spent a bunch of years as the mysterious necromancer.
I remember reading that Gandalf's actions in "The Hobbit" were intended to prevent Sauron from using Smaug as a weapon in the upcoming war. I also remember reading a timeline that stated Sauron "stocked" Moria with orcs. This strongly implied that Sauron knew about the Balrog and gave him minions as a gift or bribe. Remember, guile, charm and persuasion were also among Sauron's talents. This video only briefly mentions that Sauron's powers were greatly diminished without the One Ring. This bears more emphasis. Sauron was clever and patient and fixated on recovering the One Ring. AFTER the ring was on his finger again, Sauron might have the power to easily enslave the Balrog, Smaug and Shelob at his leisure. Such unstated powers of the Ring, would provide clearer motivations for ALL those who were tempted to possess it throughout the Lord of the Rings. Imagine what they could do, if Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond or Saruman could bend powerful monsters like the Balrog to their will. This was why Sauron obsessed over getting the Ring first.
_"Such unstated powers of the Ring..."_
Perhaps not expressly stated, but heavily implied. Galadriel's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo because of how she would become an object of worship among the people of Middle Earth if she had.
Gandalf's and, perhaps more subtly, Aragorn's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo out of fear of what would happen if they did; that fear extending to how they would likely descend into despotism despite having good intentions. A despotism that would see them rule over others.
Sam's fantasizing about turning Mordor into an agricultural paradise (obviously in need of tending by thousands of devoted gardeners) during his brief stint of bearing the Ring.
I think there's sufficient evidence in the text to support the idea that, among the Ring's many powers, influence - if not outright control of others - could be counted among them. Quite possibly scaling in proportion to the will of the wielder.
I am enjoying your videos very much. Do you have one about the history of the Dwarves?
Sauron probably understood he had tactical advantage anyway. He almost won on Pelinor field without even gathering his full force, and lost only because several factors all turned against him. If he managed to get Ring he would have succeeded on second try leaving only scattered and disorganized opposition. And without Ring his disembodied spirit could not control neither Smaug nor Balrog.
That voice reminds me of the Fallout2 narrator. Very soothing, good AI.
The Balrog was drawn only too Morgoth, a Valar, not to Sauron, its equal. The Balrog also had other policies and goals, probably content with ruling only Moria.
Not all Maiar are equal; just as any other race in middle earth.
The power of the maiar vary vastly, just because a balrog is a maiar doesn’t make it an equal of Sauron’s.
Great vid! I think Smaug certainly- Gandalf definitely thought so, and saw it as imperative that Smaug was defeated before the free peoples fought against Sauron... I'd argue that Durin's Bane was not beyond his infulence either. Yes the balrog is also a maiar, but Sauron, along with Gothmog (the leader of the balrogs) were the greatest among these to fall along with Morgoth. Sauron however was a master strategist, and patient. While Sauron was likely powerful enough to command the balrog, certainly so while in possesion of the Ring, it did not awaken before his battle against the last alliance (when he was outmatched by the free peoples), and it's awakening was still around 400 years after his victory over the kingdom of Arnor. The real question to ask is "Did Sauron need too?" before the Last Alliance, the dwarves of Khazad dum (Durin's kin) were allied with Men and elves. During the fall of Eregion the Dwarves of Moria attacked and wailaid Sauron, allowing the escape of Elrond and Celebrimbor (who Sauron intended to wrest the locations of the other rings of power from) denying him total victory. Afterwards Sauron led a massive assault on Moria but was unssuccessful. After his defeat at The last alliance and his successful Northern campaign against the Witch King, the dwarves awoke the balrog and Moria was lost. The goal of his projection of power northward in the 3rd age was made with the intent of weakening and dividing Arnor and the scattered remnants of Durin's kin after the fall of Moria. The dwarves, while able to kill orcs, possessed no means to defeat the balrog. Despite multiple valiant efforts they were unnable to reastablish their stronghold until Durin's Bane was vanquished... So if Sauron could command the Balrog, why would he move it? Akin to Shelob, he only needed to leave Durin's Bane be and both parties benefited. Sauron had no need of increasing his direct power to defeat the free peoples (but for our heroes incredibly unlikely success; which Sauron deemed impossible he would win easily) and the dwarves regaining some of their former strength and numbers, (as well as control of the Misty Mountains) would leave a loose end that had bit him before, and could cause serious problems logistically. I'd argue that Durin's Bane was right where Sauron wanted him, or he otherwise may have moved the balrog somewhere else to gain an advantage. One of his most bitter enemies was crippled by simply leaving the balrog where it was.
Wrong, Sauron puts the goblins and black uruks under the control of the Balrog in Moria. Currently, in the book, Sauron uses the Balrog, but before he can reach his final goal, the balrog is killed by Gandalf the Gray, it is explained in the book...
Don't listen to the people saying those things. Your channel is a labor of love and also in the spirit of sharing knowledge.
Your analysis is quite sound. Excellent stuff!
The only thing I'd disagree on is the thought that Sauron was too weak without the ring to coerce the Balrog.
Sauron isn't just one of the strongest of the Maiar, he's _the_ strongest. Even without the ring he stands head and shoulders above all other Maiar, to the point where Gandalf the White (who describes himself as the most dangerous being Gimli would ever meet unless he came before Sauron himself) was almost broken by a remote contest of wills against him and wandered around in a daze for days afterwards.
Sauron could probably have squashed Durin's Bane like a bug if he felt so inclined.
I think it’s more down to what the real concerns were for Sauron. He had the Nazgûl already, and likely deemed them an adequate counter to anything less than Galadriel or Glorfindel, who he probably figured would not take the field in any event given the option to return to Valinor.
Moreover, if he had managed to bring the balrog into the fold, no one but those two could really deal with it, and encouraging Glorfindel to come to the war would have rallied more elves and possibly led to another alliance between elves and men.
Remember that keeping his enemies divided, often by disguising how dangerous his army was growing to be, was a key strength to Sauron- it was critical for him that each settlement believed that the next would handle Sauron so that the could tip them one by one after Gondor.
The same problem exists for Smaug, except that by recruiting him Sauron would have unified the dwarves against himself, and again the elves and men were content to leave the dragon in his mountain and give the dwarves no help with slaying it or retaking their home.
Tactical powerhouses yes, but strategically declaring to the world that he had nukes would only have started an arms race that would have him staring down another last alliance style army with Glorfindel at the front, and he knew from experience that such a confrontation would end in disaster.
Respect for being transparent about using an AI voice. I know some channels that very obviously use an AI voice but they pretend like they don't.
The Ring betrayed the Smaug, the Balrog, the Ungoliath and lastly the Sauron himself, this is how the Evil works
You do a really nice job of narrating
Another explanation why they didn't team up: Sauron knew that Gandalf would waste the Balrog, so he was like "not worth the effort"😆
Becuase as Gandalf said to Saruman……… Sauron does not share power.
"The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy".
Never forget that.
Great video, thank you
I think the question is ,how powerful would the balrog have become if it had discovered gollum and the ring.
I have got one very good reason, because the balrog was basically dead. You can't actually kill them but you can render them basically impotent in the mortal realm. One thing I want to know is if the orks of Moria were loyal to him or to Sauron or maybe even The Witch King. Just because they feared it doesnt mean it wasn't their master. It would have been a general of ork legions in its past so they could be under his command.
Hi, just discovering the extended LOTR world. When was the Balrog made 'basically dead?"
The orks feared the balrog, they cleared out the moment it arrived
Sauron and the Balrog were Maia, there power was probably equal to each other.
So Sauron might not have wanted an 'allie' of the Balrogs power, that could 'challenge' him.
Whilst he did 'allie' seemingly with Saruman, Saruman was constrained in his powers by the Valor (Although the wizards were Maia themselves)
Ally
@@jasonsaenz2367 Either can be used.
Sauron was more powerfull than Balrogs
Durin's bane would just steal Sauron's ring.
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 Not after the beat down Gil-Galad and Elendil did.
10:15 - My gosh, ancient Batman fought with, and died for Gondor?!? 😲
Seriously though, thanks for the video! It's a reasonable theory why Sauron kept these other players "at arms length".
Sauron be like: don’t make me use this!
Though I am sorry to hear you use an AI voice but its a rather good one so hats off to your choice you've avoided the pitfalls of choosing the horrible robot sounding ones. It was a very well done video I enjoyed your take and I came to the same conclusions about why the Balrog was left in Moria. I'll be happy to look for your works in future.
When Balrog fought with gandelf ,Balrogs eyes resembles ones possessed by sauron
Because they weren't his to use. You could equally ask why the Moria Balrog didn't use Sauron, as they were both Maia, and were both servants and weapons of Morgoth. You could argue that Gothmog, Morgoth's Lord of the Balrogs, although not more powerful than Sauron, was actually closer to Morgoth.
Yes. Gothmog in the Lord Of The Rings would have usurped Sauron from his throne if he was the Balrog hiding in Moria.
As it is, the orcs in Moria were clearly under its command.
@@shauntempley9757It looks like the orks were scared to death of the balrog and disappeared the moment they realised it was coming
Absolutely, this question can be asked. In fact, answering it could be very intriguing. The only problem is that we know much more about Sauron compared to the Balrog
The main difference, is that we know a few things, and one is that Sauron served as Morgoth's Lieutenant.
Durin's Bane served as a Captain of Morgoth's, while Gothmog Lord Of Balrogs was Morgoth's General. All of this is mentioned in the Silmarillion about Morgoth's military command structure. How Sauron fitted in is shown in the Lay of Beren and Luthien. All of his actions in that are all pretty much Black Ops stuff. Especially how he took out Beren's father.
It means, Durin's Bane would be a War Chief in a Shadow of Mordor type game that focuses on the First Age, and would be the equivalent of Saruon's Ringwraiths.
Gothmog would easily be the First Age equivalent of the Witch King of Angmar.
@@middleearthtales
8:45 The high pass was not the same as the Caradhras, these were two different passes hundreds of miles apart. And only the northern one, the high pass, was under orc surveillance. (And even that is questionable, since most of the orcs from that pass came to the Battle of the Five Armies and were killed there.)
The high pass was watched by the Beornings, as Gimli (somewhat) or his father complained about. Mostly, they didn't want to pay the "stiff tolls" to pass that way but the pass was secure (until the war started).
I think Sauron wanted to control everyone - him as master, his "servants" more or less his slaves. The Balrog, being at least in the same order, would be, at best, an uneasy alliance. Also, the Balrog may have been pretty smart - he saw the War of Wrath and probably figured that if he kept a low profile he could run his little kingdom without the Valar coming by to take him out. The Balrog probably thought Sauron was stupid - if Sauron was successful and conquered Middle Earth then the Valar would probably come and "War of Wrath" him into the void.
The Balrog was Chaotic Evil, as Sauron was more focused on Order. Any alignment between them - assuming they were victorious - would eventually lead to a power struggle. As Gandalf said to Saruman, "He does not share power" and indeed he would have either fought directly, or had the Balrog slain to remove any challenge to his dominance.
The key point here I think is the devastating loss of the One Ring and the resultant almost fatal loss of "self" (let's call it "power") for Sauron. Sauron was indeed one of the most "powerful" Maia, and as Marion he was considered most admirable before his seduction by Melkor. Following his corruption and fall, his defeats and his shames that culminated with the loss of the One Ring and the greater part of his own power, I suspect he would quite reasonably fear the Balrog and be content to "let sleeping dogs lie"...
Sauron in the First Age was the equal to Melian. It is stated, however, that the Balrogs were the greater in specific purposes, warfare and combat especially.
Gothmog is specifically mentioned to be the most powerful of Balrogs in that fashion.
Sauron was most likely the most powerful of the Maiar, but I assume like the Valar, each had their power in certain "specialties". One might be more physically powerful, another's strength may be in controlling weather, animals or other aspects of nature. As previously mentioned, Balrog's were Melchor's shock troops and army leaders, so they were very powerful physically. Sauron's power was in influence and domination, he was likely weaker in combat terms than Durin's Bane.
Sauron may not have known which Balrog Durin's Bane was and may also have been concerned that it may have been able to challenge his authority as Melchor's "heir".
Also, given how Sauron had invested so much of his power in the ring, and had lost more after being "killed" by Isildur, even if he was originally stronger, he may have actually been weaker than the Balrog at the time if the war of the ring. At least until he had gathered his strength back. And maybe not even until he regained the one ring.
i'm sure it was a typo but Sauron's original name was Mairon...not Marion.
Or in this case, "sleeping 'rogs".
Makes me want to re-read the Silmarillion again and see what can be dug up.
I like the videos! Keep up the good work!
Great video, I very much enjoyed it. I've often wondered exactly this scenario you've put forth here. I agree with much of your interpretation of the relationship/character of both the Balrog and Sauron. I always considered Balrogs to be (as they're fallen Maiar) to be masters of sorcery and spells (in addition to being physically imposing and terrifying). After the fall of Morgoth in the First Age in the War of Wrath, I think that the Balrog (and any other potential ones, I always suspected that there must have been others), were more or less operating as "free agents" of evil, so to speak. Certainly Shelob did, much like Ungoliant in the First Age who was apparently never part of the Melkor hierarchy (where did *she* come from, btw?). Also I hadn't considered the loss of power Sauron experienced by *making* the One Ring as you indicated, great factor to consider! Great assessment, I really enjoyed it!
_"where did she come from, btw?"_
Ungoliant was the embodiment of the Primordial Void, the Eternal Darkness, and insatiable hunger.
One Maiar, a cousin to the Balrog before their fall but who did not herself fall, was described as a spirit of flame; burning brighter and hotter than even the Balrog. It's heavily implied she takes the form of a star in the physical realm. In like but opposite manner, there's some inference that Ungoliant is akin to a Black Hole in nature if not in form.
Whether she was created by Eru or simply has always been is unclear.
Sarumon was in communication with Sauron through the Palantir. Sarumon knew that Gandalf did not want to pass through the mountains and that he was well aware of the Balrog. It is possible there was an alliance with the Balrog, but it is likely it was just being used.
Great video for sure! You're right about the ai pronunciation, though.
Sauron: It seems my power... Might have been greatly exaggerated
This is a good explanation as any for the reasons certain things happened
Talk about keep your enemies closer. I always found it interesting Sauron worrying about Smaug or The Balrog claiming the ring. What could they do with it? Smaug would just collect it and the Balrog would somehow harness the one ring’s power if he found it?
Sauron ain’t Morgoth my son. That’s my take. Although I think Sauron is a more tactile and patient strategist than Melkor. Eru’s Darkest son/ offspring functions on passion, anger, jealousy and fear. Ultimately the Valaraukar answered to their OG master first and foremost.
Also, I think Sauron was too busy with ring craft and fucking over Númenor to put effort into such things. There’s only so many hours in the day.
I do agree that he probably thought about it and ultimately decided to not risk an alliance that could potentially lead to him having a rival.
Not every stupid question deserves a 10 minute essay on it.
Don't see how the Balrog could have possibly been a BETTER ally.
Dude wiped out Balin's colony, then killed Gandalf.. only *direct intervention* from Illuvatar prevented Sauron's victory!
Earned my subscribe, great insights!
Very nice video, ... they were equals as Maia, however Sauron was likely more powerful than Balrogs leading the armies in the first age for Morgoth, I see that Sauron learnt the art of deceiving from his master Morgoth, which ultimately seems like a very advance strategy, I don't remember about Balrogs showing a intelectual property of such level, so could they have been more like just melee weapons after the corruption... nonetheless ... you state very well the strategic position by Durin's Bane at the mystic mountains ... keeping the Dwarfs scattered around middle-earth would make for them hard to reunite the armies strength ... they certainly would fight by their own means against anyone that opposes them ... they were already corrupted.
read the silmarillion. sauron was morgoth's lieutenant. gothmog, lord of the balrogs, was morgoth's commander of his armies.
really? I have already done so, thanks.@@thehellyousay
@thehellyousay dude, sauron was literally morgorths chief agent, before melkor established his fortresses in middle earth, he feed information to him and once angband and utumno were established he was given command of angband as well as helping in the creation of the orcs, one of the reasons why sauron was able to "prefect" there design in the Uruks. He was also counted as the "greatest of [Morgoth's] servants that have names" indicating a primacy over all other servants of Morgoth, including gothmog and the balrogs. Gothmog was only the "front line lieutenant" whereas sauron was entrusted not just to lead armies but whole campaigns which is more important than leading armies and was trusted to be given significant stragetic goals to achieve to weaken Morgoths enemies such as the slaying of Barahir, ally of Finrod. Only after his defeat by Huan the the success of the quest for the silmaril did he hide out of fear of reprisal from Morgoth. Also from an etymological perspective, which is important as Tolkien was a linguist, the chief lieutenant would be of a higher rank than any general or captain as lieutenant in French means place holding and since Sauron was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth, he was for all intents and purposes his dedicated second in command and had authority over all his other commanders, generals, captains and other officers and leaders in the absance of Morgoth and even then his authority could only be countermanded by a direct command of Morgoth. But it's rather moot as the balrogs seemed to be similar to the olog hai trolls, lacking significant will without the direct influence of Morgoth as when he was held prisoner in valinor, they are specifically said to be hibernating after fleeing to angband from utumno, only waking after Morgoth summons them to attack ungoliant implying they need morgoth to will them into activity, baring self preservation as in the case of Durins Bane as he had been "hibernating" beneath kazad-dum and only after being awakened did it act. They only seem to become truly active when Morgoth is active and directing them to a specific goal and when he is not they seem to just do nothing.
Can you please do a video on the Host of the Valar, that group of powerful warriors assembled in Valinor that sailed West to engage Morgoth and his dreaded forces during the War of Wrath. What was the host composed of, did Gandalf and Saruman fight in that war in their Maia forms? I hope this topic is of interest to your channel.
Nice video dude!
We don't know, working only from the LOTR text, that Sauron had no alliance with the balrog. Plan A may have been for the balrog to lead an attack on Lorien at the same time as the war against Gondor. Sauron was on at least plan B after Saruman cease to cooperate and may have been down to plan C.
I think aura sing is up there as my favourite .. 1 scene of her standing next to a pod race track in a phantom menace and now she’s a force sensitive bounty hunter working with boba fett and cad bane
Without *THE RING*
Balrogs were basically... Rapid Pitbulls without a leash
People trying to recruit Balrogs need to be at the very top of the chain of command and, ideally, fireproof.
Nice video. And you really did your research well
However, let me tell some of my thoughts regarding the matter.
I dont think that sauron was much bothered about Elrond. Remember that Rivendell is a 'house'; a very big and peculiar house, but nevertheless a house. There are not many people there to form an army and march out. Sauron was very much concerned about Galadriel and Lothlorien, but not that much about anything west of the mountains. Additionally the high pass is cleared and maintained by the Beorians by the time of the books. (The reason that they dont take the high pass is because they are moving in the dead of winter andthe high pass is further north and well, high. It was blocked till the spring.
In regard to the general topic. I dont think the balrog would serve sauron. He is a maia of melkor and owe allegiance to no one else. And it seems that the whole purpose of of the balrogs is to serve Melkor. They have no ambition of their own. The balrog just sleeps and when awaken, just hangs there. He has no purpose other than just stay tgere and kill anything that comes there
I believe the main reasons are the ones you identified: risking teasing another Maia before having full control of his own powers would have been more of a risk than a help, Sauron is very afraid that an entity capable of competing with him will enter into possession of the Ring. He fears Galadriel, he fears "even" Aragorn, so it is conceivable that he would much rather use the Balrog as an obstacle to free peoples than see him wandering the same lands over which the One Ring travels. Furthermore, just as there are tribes of orcs in the East who mock Sauron and refuse to serve him as they are loyal to Morgoth, we can imagine that even more so a Balrog would have refused, perhaps angry, when faced with such a proposal.