I've been thinking about pressure washing for a while now. I've got the van recently so your videos have helped with pricing and a set up to start up 👌 thanks for the video
Started out 2 months ago and decided to be middle to top end price wise. Been the best move I made. I seem to have attracted some really nice customers who appreciate the service and quality of work. There’s been a couple of awkward customers who I’ve not taken on because I could foresee them been difficult. The job has to be worth going to, and worth taking your time over. 80 customers gathered up in 2 months canvassing. Went for the nice areas and it’s certainly paid off. Really gained a lot from watching your videos. They’ve been such a help to me setting up.
That’s great! Well done! I’m glad you find my channel useful. I think it really helps if you already have a set plan for your pricing, and stick to it.😃👍🏼
Came across your Chanel just because I find patio cleaning very therapeutic.... however you are clearly a true gent and very knowledgeable, great TH-cam channel 👍
Love you videos very helpful so good for you to share with others to progress there business in a professional manner. I love windows best job in the world making people happy and they pay you . Thank you for what you do it is appreciated you set the bar high for all to follow.
Some potential customers can be very off about quotes. One guy accused me of being a thief for a first clean. I was asking £30 for average house - windows that were black with dirt. And recently, a customer I've had for 5 years was angry about my quote for a yearly wash down of his facias, soffits, and gutters - it was the same price as last year. I had to show him the text message from years previous to reassure him. That's a good tip there. Keep your quotes in text messages and never delete those texts. 👍 Great vid Ashley 👌
Thanks. Sounds like you have got things well organised. I think there are some grumpy people around who are getting stressed about the current situation.
Hi Ashley, I wish I had seen this video 2 years ago when I started. I was bargained and I have done so many underpriced jobs. Thankfully I learned and I don't negotiate my prices anymore. I would recommend this video to anyone starting a new business, It just makes such a difference. In the end those who bargained the prices kept on giving me problems everytime, they don't pay in time, they are just difficult customers that I have gotten rid of by now. It's worth having one well priced good customer, than 3 underpriced bad ones.
Absolutely! You are better off using your time to find better customers that appreciate what you do and the efforts you make. I’m glad you agree. Thanks for your comments.😃👍🏼
Brilliant advice, I took on a few at the beginning to low but I've quickly bucked my plan up and been much more confident in pricing and getting new business
@@aemackintosh means a lot. But seriously good info. Well away from you you be glad to hear, up in South Yorkshire but work part time so least got that income to fall back on. Not best of times to be starting up but one question, have you done many exterior driveway wall cleans.
Hi Ashley, some great advice. Just wanted to say what a difference you have made to my business. Been cleaning window for 17years now, really love being my own boss. After watching you videos I’ve gone and bought a jet wash system and the sky vac & work has come flooding in. I’m making more money per day and enjoying the different variety of work. Made a real difference so wanted to say thank you for your hard work and videos, keep it up 😁 👍👍👍
Terrific advice Ashley, very convenient topic. As you say, always look at the job in person, guessometer prices always come back to bite you on the ass! Again, like you , id never be dictated to on price! I just say Thank you & walk away!
your channel is great m8 such good advice ive been helhelping my dad for a few years window cleaning then started doing my own round on my days of from my chefing job!! im now this month takeing the plunge into self employed and minimum pricing as u stated is a must are price was £10 minimum but they where always the late payers or leave it this month!! so its now £12.00 minimum most jobs are £15.00 and it makes such a difference in the end of day return i was a sucker at first for saying £10.00 to everyone but i donw the maths you do 10 jobs at £10.00 =100 you do 10 jobs at £15.00 its £150.00 thats 50% more per day . i just sell it by stating we clean the windows frames sills and doors as standard. also we do a deep clean with chemicals to get the windows to standard on the first clean . and they understand. great channel m8 cheers for the advice
I have be cleaning gutter fascia and soffit. And some time it really takes a life time to do. In Ireland its all coal fire and sometime there real black. What would u use to leave it like new.
I’m not sure actually. I haven’t really come across that sort of thing. It might need something strong like upvc restorer, maybe along with a bit of extra elbow grease to get it clean.😃👍🏼
Great info Ashley, can you tell me how you take payment from the customer ? Do you insist on payment at the job site when finished, or would you allow them to transfer the cash to your bank account after say a couple of days ? Thanks.
Definitely always polite! Even if the customer is difficult, it all effects your reputation. Even if they are not happy with your quote at first, they might come back to you one day if they remember that you were polite and decent.😃👍🏼
I'm strictly a window cleaner on my area people don't pay a lot for their windows, my minimum charge is £5 and that would be for a front only clean. £10 minimum for front and back. Some great tips here though especially the window price chart, thanks.
That's too cheap! I'd look around at what other window cleaners are charging. Especially for Fuel, you will be losing a lot of money. My minimum charge is 12 for a regular customer with the smallest flat or Maisonette. Also I never do just fronts, but It might be different where you are.
It’s different for different areas. When you are starting out you will do any little job even if it’s awkward. But the more work you do and the longer you are in this game, you can pinpoint where you can make the best money. So your minimum price will gradually increase and you can gradually drop off the awkward jobs that don’t pay so well.😃👍🏼
Totally agree - it's ironic we are now spending thousands on equipment and charging less - prices we charge Haven't kept pace - so we have to value & charge for what we do
@@aemackintosh your right if your not confident or cant sell your service it’s never gonna work, some of us can do it some cant, first year I worked I made £30k that wasn’t every 4 weeks out the months working that was 2 weeks so basically I worked 6 months out the whole year, now it’s just crazy. Charge what your service is worth, if you don’t give a toss charge a few quid then on to the next but when you actually care about your business and service you provide then you charge what your worth, great videos also 👍
When window cleaners are not legit that’s when you see the few pounds getting charged, I know a few of them, have no license no insurance nothing, it makes me sick to think they get away with it for over 10 years, these are the people that under cut us then when we try get the jobs the customer won’t pay, so then they get another dodgy guy giving them the cheap service.
Morning Ash just a quick one recently bought myself a skyvac industrial just wondering have you used it in the rain and how did you get on with it if so
Yeah. I wouldn’t suggest using it all day in pouring rain. Probably not a good idea. But I have used it in light rain and tried to keep the vac in a fairly sheltered place as I work.😃👍🏼
Yeah just bought it and the heavens have opened so was hoping it doesn't effect it too much as dont want to lose work was thinking of strapping a umbrella to the trolley lol
It’s worth spending out and getting a machine that will do a decent job right from the start if you can. Go to a trusted supplier who can help you out and look for a machine that’s around 21litres per minute.👍🏼
@@aemackintosh thanks mate been following your page for some time 👏🏻 so anything less that 21 L pm you’d say wouldn’t be powerful enough for commercial use. I’ve been searching around and most power washers I can find do not go upto that
clear vision That depends on so many things, similar to what I’ve already mentioned here, like where you live. But also how well developed your round is, makes a big difference. That’s a whole separate video. I was actually planning on talking about that subject soon.😃👍🏼
Clear Vision, I work on my own so I try to do 25 to 30 jobs per day so if that’s £10 per house that’s £250-£300 per day but most of mine are between £10-£40 per house the commercial quotes are different, just set a minimum charge then a minimum amount of jobs you want to do, that’s how I work it and it’s done great for me, I try stick to a very high standers when working so the customers are getting there moneys worth 👍
Hi Ashley i have been a Traditional window cleaner for 20 years, and have come very close to trying out the wfp several times but always thought better of it. i have a mate who has done both and keeps telling me go with the wfp but then i still pick up customers who are not happy with the wfp so i am conflicted on this. However last week after 3 years of going back and forth i finally ordered a Trolley system just to start off with cleaning some conservatory roofs and some awkward windows to begin with and see how i get on with it. . . . Although i have done very well from Traditional but recently i have started thinking if my son wants to join the business and one day take over, i really don't want him up and down ladders all day(I've been fine with it myself) but don't want it for him. Any way My question is i see you have successfully made the transition yourself, did you increase your prices at the time or at a later date(if so by what per cent ) or just keep them the same, and did you lose many customers during or after the switch ? Also with the wfp did you find you got more walk byes( people walking up to you asking you to quote them) or was it about the same as Traditional. . . . Any useful or interesting info that maybe helpful would be appreciated in this matter . Thanks Rob
Sounds like you have got the right idea. That’s similar to what I did, starting off using it on fascias and con roofs, then the odd window cleaning job to build my confidence in the method. It’s also pertly down to how you sell it. They say that windows cleaned using wfp will stay cleaner for longer because there is no tacky residue left behind that you get from traditional soaps. I love wfp now and I actually think the results are superior if carried out correctly.😃👍🏼
It sounds like your Two years ahead of me , it will be interesting to see if i have a van in a couple of years :)... Sorry but could tell me did you increase your prices during or after the changeover or keep them the same.@@aemackintosh
I don't think I've had to enact this yet, but I've always had a policy to walk away immediately when somebody tries to bring a price down. It's a red-light/alarm-bell for several reasons. Great vid for all types of new start businesses 👍
Yeah, if someone tries to knock you down hard on price, they will most likely always try the same thing, so I think it’s good to stand your ground from the start.👍🏼
I live in the south West England ,Somerset and had a customer ask for a quote on a detached large property with conservatories on 2 sides and awkward narrow sides on another side.they wanted all the gutters cleared and fascia cleaned and a few repairs made on the gutters in places.it was alot of work and came to quite a hefty price to which many other customers have agreed to happily.this customer replied saying they were absolutely shocked by the price and that they had another family member up north with a similar property who got quoted half the price😂😂. I laughed at the comment and said I cannot work for such a cheap price it isn't worth me loading the van for that.people seem to think that south west prices are the same as you north it's absolute madness.
@@aemackintosh yeah absolutely. I actually like when they say it's not affordable to them as it's truthful but when they think they will get it done for next to nothing it's hilarious.
@@aemackintosh Just FYI Ashley, here in WA all contractors will only work for cash. Because they have plenty of local work due to Big companies going bust over Covid.
People have to understand that self employed people get zero money if they take ANY time off for holidays.We also get no pension unless we start one ourself.Also we have to pay for our van insurance, fuel , tools machines and servicing also replacing used parts and taxes.When it's all added up we don't make as much as people think.
I was out canvassing the other day, I guy came out and asked for a quote, these were 3/4 bed semi nice houses I had a look and said take it you have a window cleaner as there very clean, he said why you ask that I said because this means you want it cheaper than you already pay or there something wrong, he just smirked I then hit him with £25 every 4 weeks he was like wow that more than I pay I pay £14 so you were wanting it cheaper then he said yeh, I really hate customers like that. My minimum is £10 even for your one window 1door shop jobs.
That is one thing I have never done is drop my price even if i might loose the job What I always say to them is how would they feel if they boss said they are now to work for less money. they normally see my side then for the ones that don't their is no point in wasting your time with them
If you let the customer push you on price they will always expect you to do other things cheaply too. So it’s good to set off on the right foot in the first place.😃👍🏼
I've been thinking about pressure washing for a while now. I've got the van recently so your videos have helped with pricing and a set up to start up 👌 thanks for the video
Started out 2 months ago and decided to be middle to top end price wise. Been the best move I made. I seem to have attracted some really nice customers who appreciate the service and quality of work. There’s been a couple of awkward customers who I’ve not taken on because I could foresee them been difficult.
The job has to be worth going to, and worth taking your time over. 80 customers gathered up in 2 months canvassing. Went for the nice areas and it’s certainly paid off.
Really gained a lot from watching your videos. They’ve been such a help to me setting up.
That’s great! Well done! I’m glad you find my channel useful. I think it really helps if you already have a set plan for your pricing, and stick to it.😃👍🏼
Came across your Chanel just because I find patio cleaning very therapeutic.... however you are clearly a true gent and very knowledgeable, great TH-cam channel 👍
Thanks, that’s very kind of you. I appreciate your comments. I hope you enjoy the channel and find it useful.😃👍🏼
Love you videos very helpful so good for you to share with others to progress there business in a professional manner.
I love windows best job in the world making people happy and they pay you .
Thank you for what you do it is appreciated you set the bar high for all to follow.
Thanks for your comments, I’m glad you find the videos helpful.👍🏼
Some potential customers can be very off about quotes. One guy accused me of being a thief for a first clean. I was asking £30 for average house - windows that were black with dirt. And recently, a customer I've had for 5 years was angry about my quote for a yearly wash down of his facias, soffits, and gutters - it was the same price as last year. I had to show him the text message from years previous to reassure him. That's a good tip there. Keep your quotes in text messages and never delete those texts. 👍
Great vid Ashley 👌
Thanks. Sounds like you have got things well organised. I think there are some grumpy people around who are getting stressed about the current situation.
Hi Ashley, I wish I had seen this video 2 years ago when I started. I was bargained and I have done so many underpriced jobs. Thankfully I learned and I don't negotiate my prices anymore. I would recommend this video to anyone starting a new business, It just makes such a difference. In the end those who bargained the prices kept on giving me problems everytime, they don't pay in time, they are just difficult customers that I have gotten rid of by now. It's worth having one well priced good customer, than 3 underpriced bad ones.
Absolutely! You are better off using your time to find better customers that appreciate what you do and the efforts you make. I’m glad you agree. Thanks for your comments.😃👍🏼
Brilliant advice, I took on a few at the beginning to low but I've quickly bucked my plan up and been much more confident in pricing and getting new business
That’s great. It took me years to sort out some prices that I started too low.😬👍🏼
Your videos are so helpful and practical, thank you Ashley!!!
Glad you like them.👍🏼
Seriously good information, setting up a jet wash service and appreciate your time making these...
Thanks, I’m glad you find it useful. I wish you all the best with your business plans.😃👍🏼
@@aemackintosh means a lot. But seriously good info. Well away from you you be glad to hear, up in South Yorkshire but work part time so least got that income to fall back on.
Not best of times to be starting up but one question, have you done many exterior driveway wall cleans.
Not many walls, but a few.😃👍🏼
Hi Ashley, some great advice.
Just wanted to say what a difference you have made to my business. Been cleaning window for 17years now, really love being my own boss. After watching you videos I’ve gone and bought a jet wash system and the sky vac & work has come flooding in.
I’m making more money per day and enjoying the different variety of work. Made a real difference so wanted to say thank you for your hard work and videos, keep it up 😁 👍👍👍
Terrific advice Ashley, very convenient topic. As you say, always look at the job in person, guessometer prices always come back to bite you on the ass! Again, like you , id never be dictated to on price! I just say Thank you & walk away!
Great, thanks! I hope it helps some people out.😃👍🏼
Thanks for the info Ashley
😎👍🏼
Great advise, I have a gardening round and am looking to expand to exterior cleaning. Top man.
Great. Thanks! I hope you find my channel useful. All the best with your plans.😃👍🏼
your channel is great m8 such good advice ive been helhelping my dad for a few years window cleaning then started doing my own round on my days of from my chefing job!! im now this month takeing the plunge into self employed and minimum pricing as u stated is a must are price was £10 minimum but they where always the late payers or leave it this month!! so its now £12.00 minimum most jobs are £15.00 and it makes such a difference in the end of day return i was a sucker at first for saying £10.00 to everyone but i donw the maths you do 10 jobs at £10.00 =100 you do 10 jobs at £15.00 its £150.00 thats 50% more per day . i just sell it by stating we clean the windows frames sills and doors as standard. also we do a deep clean with chemicals to get the windows to standard on the first clean . and they understand. great channel m8 cheers for the advice
Sounds good. I’m glad you have found the channel useful. I wish you all the best with your business.😃👍🏼
Thanks for the excellent advice really helping me take my buisness forward 👍
That’s great! I’m glad you find the channel useful.😃👍🏼
Gold nuggets I learned the hard way my friend.
Life Hacks For Men Thanks. Me too, but hopefully it helps others out.😃👍🏼
Great advice as usual on your channel picking up some great tips
Cheers Ashley 👍
That’s great. I’m glad you find it useful.😃👍🏼
Top advice Ashley as always 👍
Thanks!😃👍🏼
I have be cleaning gutter fascia and soffit. And some time it really takes a life time to do. In Ireland its all coal fire and sometime there real black. What would u use to leave it like new.
I’m not sure actually. I haven’t really come across that sort of thing. It might need something strong like upvc restorer, maybe along with a bit of extra elbow grease to get it clean.😃👍🏼
I am in Northern Ireland, found hypo diluted to a 1 percent strength with plenty of fairy liquid to get it to stick, leaves them gleaming.
@@mowtownni4587 thank you.
Great info Ashley, can you tell me how you take payment from the customer ? Do you insist on payment at the job site when finished, or would you allow them to transfer the cash to your bank account after say a couple of days ? Thanks.
Most of my regular customers make a direct payment online to me using their own banking app, I just give them my details.👍🏼
Great advice Ashley thanks.
Thanks!😃👍🏼
Interesting, always polite with the (difficult) customer, hard with the money
Definitely always polite! Even if the customer is difficult, it all effects your reputation. Even if they are not happy with your quote at first, they might come back to you one day if they remember that you were polite and decent.😃👍🏼
I'm strictly a window cleaner on my area people don't pay a lot for their windows, my minimum charge is £5 and that would be for a front only clean. £10 minimum for front and back. Some great tips here though especially the window price chart, thanks.
That's too cheap! I'd look around at what other window cleaners are charging. Especially for Fuel, you will be losing a lot of money. My minimum charge is 12 for a regular customer with the smallest flat or Maisonette. Also I never do just fronts, but It might be different where you are.
It’s different for different areas. When you are starting out you will do any little job even if it’s awkward. But the more work you do and the longer you are in this game, you can pinpoint where you can make the best money. So your minimum price will gradually increase and you can gradually drop off the awkward jobs that don’t pay so well.😃👍🏼
Totally agree - it's ironic we are now spending thousands on equipment and charging less - prices we charge
Haven't kept pace - so we have to value & charge for what we do
I am much more confident about my pricing now than I used to be a few years ago. Experience really helps.😃👍🏼
@@aemackintosh your right if your not confident or cant sell your service it’s never gonna work, some of us can do it some cant, first year I worked I made £30k that wasn’t every 4 weeks out the months working that was 2 weeks so basically I worked 6 months out the whole year, now it’s just crazy. Charge what your service is worth, if you don’t give a toss charge a few quid then on to the next but when you actually care about your business and service you provide then you charge what your worth, great videos also 👍
When window cleaners are not legit that’s when you see the few pounds getting charged, I know a few of them, have no license no insurance nothing, it makes me sick to think they get away with it for over 10 years, these are the people that under cut us then when we try get the jobs the customer won’t pay, so then they get another dodgy guy giving them the cheap service.
Thanks for your comments.😃👍🏼
Morning Ash just a quick one recently bought myself a skyvac industrial just wondering have you used it in the rain and how did you get on with it if so
Yeah. I wouldn’t suggest using it all day in pouring rain. Probably not a good idea. But I have used it in light rain and tried to keep the vac in a fairly sheltered place as I work.😃👍🏼
Yeah just bought it and the heavens have opened so was hoping it doesn't effect it too much as dont want to lose work was thinking of strapping a umbrella to the trolley lol
Not a bad idea.😃👍🏼
Hi I’m expanding my business what budget power washer and surface cleaner would you recommend as a start up
It’s worth spending out and getting a machine that will do a decent job right from the start if you can. Go to a trusted supplier who can help you out and look for a machine that’s around 21litres per minute.👍🏼
@@aemackintosh thanks mate been following your page for some time 👏🏻 so anything less that 21 L pm you’d say wouldn’t be powerful enough for commercial use. I’ve been searching around and most power washers I can find do not go upto that
Check out Rutland Pumps or AC Pressure Washers. Give them a call and I’m sure they will be happy to help.😃👍🏼
Thank you, top video
😃👍🏼
Thanks for the help 👍🏼
Thanks for your comments.😃👍🏼
So what would you say in your Opinion would be a good days rate of pay
clear vision That depends on so many things, similar to what I’ve already mentioned here, like where you live. But also how well developed your round is, makes a big difference. That’s a whole separate video. I was actually planning on talking about that subject soon.😃👍🏼
Sounds good. Nicely done.😃👍🏼
Clear Vision, I work on my own so I try to do 25 to 30 jobs per day so if that’s £10 per house that’s £250-£300 per day but most of mine are between £10-£40 per house the commercial quotes are different, just set a minimum charge then a minimum amount of jobs you want to do, that’s how I work it and it’s done great for me, I try stick to a very high standers when working so the customers are getting there moneys worth 👍
Hi Ashley i have been a Traditional window cleaner for 20 years, and have come very close to trying out the wfp several times but always thought better of it. i have a mate who has done both and keeps telling me go with the wfp but then i still pick up customers who are not happy with the wfp so i am conflicted on this. However last week after 3 years of going back and forth i finally ordered a Trolley system just to start off with cleaning some conservatory roofs and some awkward windows to begin with and see how i get on with it. . . . Although i have done very well from Traditional but recently i have started thinking if my son wants to join the business and one day take over, i really don't want him up and down ladders all day(I've been fine with it myself) but don't want it for him. Any way My question is i see you have successfully made the transition yourself, did you increase your prices at the time or at a later date(if so by what per cent ) or just keep them the same, and did you lose many customers during or after the switch ? Also with the wfp did you find you got more walk byes( people walking up to you asking you to quote them) or was it about the same as Traditional. . . . Any useful or interesting info that maybe helpful would be appreciated in this matter .
Thanks Rob
Sounds like you have got the right idea. That’s similar to what I did, starting off using it on fascias and con roofs, then the odd window cleaning job to build my confidence in the method. It’s also pertly down to how you sell it. They say that windows cleaned using wfp will stay cleaner for longer because there is no tacky residue left behind that you get from traditional soaps. I love wfp now and I actually think the results are superior if carried out correctly.😃👍🏼
It sounds like your Two years ahead of me , it will be interesting to see if i have a van in a couple of years :)... Sorry but could tell me did you increase your prices during or after the changeover or keep them the same.@@aemackintosh
I don't think I've had to enact this yet, but I've always had a policy to walk away immediately when somebody tries to bring a price down. It's a red-light/alarm-bell for several reasons.
Great vid for all types of new start businesses 👍
Yeah, if someone tries to knock you down hard on price, they will most likely always try the same thing, so I think it’s good to stand your ground from the start.👍🏼
Good sounds advice Ash
Thanks! I wish I knew then, what I know now!😃👍🏼
@@aemackintosh like winning lottery numbers LOL
😆👍🏼
Hi Ashley. How can I contact you... Or questions just in comments?
I live in the south West England ,Somerset and had a customer ask for a quote on a detached large property with conservatories on 2 sides and awkward narrow sides on another side.they wanted all the gutters cleared and fascia cleaned and a few repairs made on the gutters in places.it was alot of work and came to quite a hefty price to which many other customers have agreed to happily.this customer replied saying they were absolutely shocked by the price and that they had another family member up north with a similar property who got quoted half the price😂😂.
I laughed at the comment and said I cannot work for such a cheap price it isn't worth me loading the van for that.people seem to think that south west prices are the same as you north it's absolute madness.
😆 Classic. Well you gotta stick to your price. If they don’t like it then that customer just isn’t right for you.😉👍🏼
@@aemackintosh yeah absolutely. I actually like when they say it's not affordable to them as it's truthful but when they think they will get it done for next to nothing it's hilarious.
Good useful advice 😊
Thanks.😃👍🏼
Do you ever get customers who ask for a cash in the hand quote
Yeah, there are always customers that ask for a deal for cash, but I stick to my price.😃👍🏼
@@aemackintosh Just FYI Ashley, here in WA all contractors will only work for cash. Because they have plenty of local work due to Big companies going bust over Covid.
People have to understand that self employed people get zero money if they take ANY time off for holidays.We also get no pension unless we start one ourself.Also we have to pay for our van insurance, fuel , tools machines and servicing also replacing used parts and taxes.When it's all added up we don't make as much as people think.
Good point. It takes good organisation and discipline to be able to handle all those things.👍🏼
I was out canvassing the other day, I guy came out and asked for a quote, these were 3/4 bed semi nice houses I had a look and said take it you have a window cleaner as there very clean, he said why you ask that I said because this means you want it cheaper than you already pay or there something wrong, he just smirked I then hit him with £25 every 4 weeks he was like wow that more than I pay I pay £14 so you were wanting it cheaper then he said yeh, I really hate customers like that. My minimum is £10 even for your one window 1door shop jobs.
Yeah, it’s good to be polite to maintain your own business reputation, but you have to stick to your prices.😃👍🏼
🎅 Amuses toi bien !
Service Lavage de vitres Xavier 😎👍🏼
That is one thing I have never done is drop my price even if i might loose the job
What I always say to them is how would they feel if they boss said they are now to work
for less money. they normally see my side then for the ones that don't their is no point in
wasting your time with them
If you let the customer push you on price they will always expect you to do other things cheaply too. So it’s good to set off on the right foot in the first place.😃👍🏼
I’m guessing with overheads and quiet times you might need to gross £1000 / day to make a living? Or is that unrealistic?