The clean Wehrmacht myth is just one of so many rewritings of history - rewritings that are still happening today. Join the TimeGhost Army so we can bring you the real stories of our past!
As an American - please the rest of the world call what is happening here what it is. They're weak cowards who you should not be afriad of, don't back down and help the just here apply pressure
I am so tired of reading commenrs that state, (only) victors write the history. Losers have long written their own histories, and some have even become received wisdom among many people. So, stop thinking that only victors write the history is in any way an argument in defense of the horrible things losers have done while losing their war, nor is it even true amyway.
I'm reminded of a similar scene in Casablanca. Captain Renault: I'm shocked to learn people gamble here. Waiter: Your money Captain. Captain Renault: Thank you.
It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS! Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - TH-cam" th-cam.com/video/7OUR5uvs9aw/w-d-xo.html Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!
I think that it's important to point something out in regard to Erwin Rommel; the prosecutors at Nuremberg knew that the main defence each defendant would give would be 'I was just following orders' so they looked for examples of when members of the German armed forces refused them. The best example they could find was Erwin Rommel's refusal of the Commando Order given by Hitler in October 1942 which instructed for all commandos to be executed upon capture even if they surrendered or were in uniform. This example enabled the prosecutors to show that it was in fact possible to refuse an order deemed to be immoral and shut down that argument as a valid way to justify the carrying out of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Rommel's Afrika Korps, in coordination with SS leader Walter Rauff of the gas van fame, is responsible for the numerous concentration camps in Libya and Tunisia. After their defeat in North Africa, the Jews and other undesirables in the concentration camps were shipped to Europe.
No German general or marshall was ever executed after disobeying orders. They were fired and placed in the Führer Reserve. Von Rundstedt (the one who probably comes closest to "clean hands") holds the record.
@@bringerofword4644people praising Rommel forget that he was his bodyguard at some point, him wishing to get rid of his boss has little to do with atrocities
It's great that this video exists. Unfortunately, the truth is rarely told and lies are mostly spread on this topic. Because it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS! Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - TH-cam" th-cam.com/video/7OUR5uvs9aw/w-d-xo.html Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!
I had a girlfriend when I was young who's father was in the Hitler Youth. Even though he was very young at the time he told me that pretty much everyone knew what was happening to the Jews to some degree. They may have not known the full extent about the camps etc. but nobody thought they were being treated well.
Also he had no choice in joining. A lot of people replying on here are acting holier than thou yet one would have to be a super hero to stand against an authoritarian government's orders ❤
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb Actually you cant say that. I have studied history in germany, so I know studies and primary sources in the language. There are far more examples where people had choices, in fact if it was not about direct resitance, a lot of people and actions which did not joined the Nazis in germany where not punished, or even changed nazi politics, because the Nazis where very eager to hold the german population peacful and cooperative. For example there is a whole study about Bavaria and the christian paralell societies in the small villiages, where a lot of stuff happened the nazis did not liked, even offcialy wanted to stop but they did not because they dont wanted to provoke the people there. Other examples are even on higher grades, whole commanders of military units who did not really followed the Kommissarbefehl where just overload, while yes others got no promotion or some degradation and still. There are even such examples as oskar schindler, who came through with his actions the whole time, and he was not a single person doing just stuff on his own, but an big industrialist. The reality was much more complex and between resistance and resiliance where abig difference, moste things people did and had actualy choices where no question to be "a super hero to stand against an authoritarian government" but more to stand out of certain paths which seamed easy, but not every otehr path was already a death sentence or a ticket to jail.
As a trial attorney for the last 30 years, I truly marvel at this presentation. You have distilled from thousands of documents the most illuminating and damning quotes. Your "demonstratives," or graphics, are brilliant at proving your claim. I know how much work it is to compress this vast body of evidence into 24 minutes. Well done!
Props go to James Newman who researched and wrote this. I’m very critical when someone else writes for me, especially a topic like this that is within my speciality, so I usually end up making a lot of changes to both content and script. In this case it was as close to a home run I’ve received - only minor changes for language and extra clarity on my part.
When I was in high school, a WW2 vet came to talk about his experiences. He was taken POW by the Wehrmacht during the Battle of the Bulge He told us that he was surprised how well he was treated by the Germans. When he asked them about it they said "Oh, yeah, we're just soldiers. It's the SS who are really evil." Whether they genuinely believed that or not, it's unfortunate that this vet took that as the truth in the face of Nuremberg. As a kid hearing that from a firsthand source, *I* took that as the truth until I went to college and started reading about WW2 on my own. Thank you for your efforts to dispell this myth. It's unfortunately very necessary these days.
Thats a strange conclusion to draw from something like that. The statement from the Wehrmacht Soldier isn't false or a lie - yes, the Wehrmacht were enablers and at times even conductors of the genocide, but the SS explicit purpose and mission, unlike that of the Wehrmacht, was murder of civilians and "cleansing" the occupied areas.
On the western front it has some truth to it. The SS did have a habit of killing POWs, see the Malmedy or Normandy massacres. The large scale Wehrmact war crimes were mostly on the eastern front, which is probably why it was easy for westerners to ignore.
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb Belive me they treated the Soviets far worse.. in fact they even treated the soviest worse than there own standard said to treat.
I was studying history at university back in the 1990. The Wehrmachts exhibition of 1995 appeared during my first semester in the masters studies. I took part in a course calles "Comparison of tank divisions of the Wehrmacht and the SS". The professor had even invited old veterans from both Wehrmacht and SS to take part. Very interesting class. At the end he showed a film shot by the grandfather of a student, who took part in anti-partisan war as part of a police unit. While he never filmed any direct attrocities I remember one scene very graphically - a few civilioans being lead behind a wooden bilding and one guard laughing into the camera while suggestively raising his pistol. Very disturbing scene. But for me personally the most disturbing thing was that I used to ride my bike to schoo on exactly the same street the soldiers marched on towards the train station to be shipped off to the front. I recognized many buildings and trees. Thinking back now: I rode that way 40 years ago and at that time another 40 years ago the policemen marched off to hunt partisans. I count maself lucky that I was born at a time of peace for Germany and I shudder thinking about what I might have done if I had been born just 40 years earlier...
Thank you for sharing this. People outside our country often have a hard time understanding the experience of the last 50 years as the nation came to grips with what truly happened. The comparatively formidable and responsible way that Germany has addressed its past is admirable, and one of the key reasons that I chose to live here.
@@massiarmy751 It is not. If Hitlwe wasnt meddling: first there would have been no war at all, so nothing to win, second there would be no "Sichelschnitt" through the ardennes. You cant seperate Hitler from meddling with the war, as the war was his meddling from the first point, and to cite Keitel about Hitler 1940: "der größte Feldherr aller zeiten" (greatest general/warlord of all times)
Unfortunately, my comment regarding the whitewashing campaign regarding the entire nation has been deleted. Strangely enough, the comment wasn't deleted when I posted it directly under the video. So if you're interested in the whitewashing campaign, you'll unfortunately have to look for my comment here and read it there.
Please ignore those that did refuse to follow certain orders and were simply removed from their previous position. The idea of "It was follow orders or be shot" was made popular as an excuse later on.
All the times that Indy said 'smiling' Albert Kesselring, and burned it into my brain. Now we know why hes smiling; and im upset that he was allowed any amount of control over the narative of the war and his own trial sentancing him to death.
It's great that this video exists. Unfortunately, the truth is rarely told and lies are mostly spread on this topic. Because it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - TH-cam" th-cam.com/video/7OUR5uvs9aw/w-d-xo.html Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!
It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using the name of the nation in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
It's certainly not just the German generals who did that. Western politicians, media and historians etc. are primarily responsible for whitewashing this nation as a whole.
It's certainly not just the German generals who did that. Western politicians, media and historians etc. are primarily responsible for whitening this nation as a whole. Ridiculously, comments are deleted with the term made up of wash and white, which is why I use the term whitening. I actually used the term with wash and white in my comment that I posted directly under the video and that comment was not deleted.
It's certainly not just the German generals who did that. Western politicians, media and historians etc. are primarily responsible for that. I mean whitening this nation as a whole. I word the comment so awkwardly because my comment was deleted and I worded it differently so that it wouldn't be deleted.
Ridiculously, comments are deleted with the term made up of wash and white, which is why I use the term whitening. I actually used the term with wash and white in my comment that I posted directly under the video and that comment was not deleted.
I think it was in the book, "The Nazi Doctors" a passage going something like this, "All you have to do in order to get good men to do horrible things is convince them of the "rightness" of what is asked of them."
Ian kershaw in his hitler biography also debunk the clean wehrmacht and the myth that had hitler listened to his general, he'd won when the general could make mistakes too
@@HeathenDance I got the condensced version in french, it also goes over wether hitler was socialist or not and kershaw doesn't portray hitler as one, the book also shows the mistakes didn't happened solely because of hitler
@@thebunkerparodie6368 He doesn’t even really spend much time going over Hitler being a socialist because it’s so obvious that he wasn’t. Kershaw just needs to point out that everyone he associated with and shared ideas with was far-right.
@@warlordofbritannia the problem with TIK take is his definition of socialist is also super wide, it's a good way to debunk his whole argument in my opnion (I still don't get the point of making a 5 hours long video arguing over a definition so wide tojo or well known french right wing politician would fit in)
@@thebunkerparodie6368 Another issue regarding whether Hitler was socialist or not is that many people tend to forget or disregard that Hitler often changed his opinion and perspective when it was beneficial. In particular, when he needed to court the Reichswehr and the Industrialists, and that Gregor Strasser's challenge to his power effectively excised the socialist faction while Goering and Himmler's instigation of the SA Purge in 1934 directly purged many of the remaining figures.
I love to see the 17 million number used, focusing on all holocaust victims, not just Jews. Not that I have an issue with educating on Jewish victims, it’s absolutely essential, but as the descendant of Slavic holocaust victims, I obviously like when that side of it also gets attention.
@@ralphranzinger4197because even before the war has ended americans decided USSR is going to be their main geopolitical enemy, therefore the ground has to he created for the future confrontation. In practice this meant that in the west nazi crimes were reduced to just the genocide of jews and little more, leaving twice as many killed soviet people swept under the rug, because, you know, soviets are actually worse than Hitler and were the enemy the whole time! An interesting consequence of this is, since the understood evil of nazism is tied entirely to their mistreatment of jews, the latter going on their own genocide arc allows german nazi apologists to say "well, you see, jews ARE bad, therefore nazis weren't THAT evil". Of course from russian (or belorussian and polish but nowadays not so much from ukrainian) perspective jews being bad or not makes no difference - germans burned thousands of villages, brutally murdered millions of people and were going to starve to death the entirety of Eastern Europe.
@@MrZauberelefant Absolutely. I think the 17 mil includes them, and at least in the west “Gypsies and Homosexuals” is the second most widely known group of victims, after Jews, I feel
As a kid I listened to my grandfather's stories about the war. He told my a lot of the atrocities he witnessed, but still insisted that "his" unit was always clean. I think he could not accept that he was part of such a monstrous crime and wasted his best years (he was born 1920, so he effectively spent his whole 20s as soldier)
It's possible his unit wasn't involved in the Holocaust. Almost every front line soldier in every war killed civilians either on purpose or by accident ❤
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb As far as I know he was mostly Pilot for the Luftwaffe (until there were no planes left to fly). Still he witnessed the crimes (hanged "Partisans", burned villages,...), mostly in the east. The time in france must be relativly chill until ´44
@@leonodonoghueburke4276 I'm defending the truth. People are forced into things and it's a bit unfair to judge them when you have not been forced into the same situation
This has done as much to poison our view of history as the lost cause myth. The old adage “the truth will set you free” has never been more prescient as generations are left prisoners of lies dooming them to make the same mistakes
@@jasonweitzel4393what you said makes zero sense. Truth is absolute and objective. Sure, there are situations where perspective can be relevant, usually in the form of context which is made up of other, related truths. And people believe in falsehoods with fanaticism for emotional reasons, not because they believe that truth can be absolute. What relativistic garbage you spout
There is a big difference, all these clean wehrmacht guys where active fans of Hitler, disliked democracy, where ant-semites, agreed with disregarding the geneva convention ect ect. No army is innocent but some are nazis and others are not
I've been waiting for this one. Thank you. The Wehrmacht brass died on their soft pillows, with their weeping families by their sides unlike the people they murdered.
Just like the "Lost Cause" myth of the American Civil War, the "Clean Whermacht" myth puts the lie to the old adage: "History is written by the victors."
It was very much written by the victors. Because mad ramblings of former Nazis were only disseminated around by the blessing of their new American masters. Without US backing, nobody would know about any of that.
History is written by the people who write. Both lost cause and clean Whermacht myths have had all too much ink dishonestly put to paper to spread them.
@ that’s an odd statement considering much historiography we have about the Vietnam War which clearly does not paint the US in a very good light. Also, that war was the first war reported on by independent journalists broadcasting live on location. It’s fair the first televised war even. Famously that reporting outraged the world, and launched widespread protests against America. I truly fail to see any validity to your point. A’s for the Middle East… that’s a region, what event(s) are you referring to?
Read an interview with a German infantry sergeant in the Heer who had served on the eastern front. He hadn't been a supporter of the Nazis because his parents were Bavarian Catholics and supported the Centre Party so he was a bit removed from the party politics. When he was asked about the Holocaust he said that they weren't aware of the extent of it or what was really happening, but they knew something was happening to the Jews. He never saw the camps or the mass graves because they were rarely off the front lines. So if a random sergeant in an infantry battalion knew something was happening even if he didn't know the details then the Generals absolutely knew what was going on in detail. He found it hilarious that in 1942 those same men talked of Aryan supremacy openly and proudly, and in 1946 it was peace and love to all men.
Hello Mr. Olsson great video as always props to you and your team. However one thing I couldn't help but notice that your hands were shaking during some of the close up shots. I hope you are healthy . You and your team are truly a gem to the History community.
I’m fine, but I have a congenial tremor in my hands that is unfortunately progressive. I used to be able to mostly control it, but it’s getting tricky with the years. It’s harmless though irritating. Thanks for your concern though, and your kind words.
@ same here, got it from my dad who got it from my grandmother. You’re right about other people, but it can be a bit of an issue in situations where people expect you to be nervous so they think you are. I usually preempt by just telling them before it gets all awkward. When he was still working, my dad nearly lost a big contract over it. Client saw him having a bear at lunch, and assumed shaking plus beer at lunch must equal serious drinking problem.
@@spartacus-olsson I agree. It's annoying when people think I'm nervous about something when I'm not. I'll use your technique and just tell them my condition.
It wasn't just the generals. The army had to issue orders forbidding soldiers from going along to watch Jews being shot in the USSR and Poland and filming and taking photographs of it. There is a German guy on TH-cam somewhere who shows the actual order. They knew, they obviously approved - at least some of them.
"We didn't know about it. Ok we knew about it but we didn't do it. Ok we did it but it wasn’t so bad. Ok it was pretty bad but we were just following orders."
To the crew (that means you too, Sparticus), I hope you are taking care of yourselves; this can't be easy to be the voice of the past when covering such dark subjects.
When Stalin learned of the torture and killing of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya by members of the Wehrmacht 197th Infantry Division, he ordered that every member of that German division be killed rather than taken prisoner. When the U.S. learned of the torture and killing of Zoya, they did everything they could in the postwar environment to suppress the story - in cooperation with the criminals who perpetrated it.
Watching this video reminded me of the late Kurt Waldheim, the former president of Austria. While he was running for the said position in 1986, the revelation of his service in Greece and Yugoslavia during World War II, and of his knowledge of Nazi atrocities as an intelligence officer the Wehrmacht, raised international controversy. Many other public figures in Austria, Germany and other European countries also had their careers marred by revelations of their association with Nazi Germany through their former service in either the Wehrmacht or the SS.
Our deep gratitude to that generation of German historians who did the work of helping to dispel the myth of the clean Werhmacht. And, as always, our thanks to the WW2 in Real Time team.
I've never really got to know my grandfather, he died when I was 4 years old. He was a Leutnant in the Wehrmacht and later rose to the rank of Oberstleutnant in the german Bundeswehr. He was an avid supporter of the clean Wehrmacht narrative and even spoke out in public against the NS-Documentation Center in Munich. Not surprising that he was an Alt-Nazi, i.e. believed in NS ideology until his death. Just thought I'd share.
Whataboutism is one of those things where I tend to take at face value, but it is very frustrating no matter how valid a point is brought up. Nothing to be done for it but persist in upholding virtue.
Franz Halder which besides planning also was responsible for provisions of Wehrmacht and exist documents where train convoys with prisoners towards extermination concentration camps had priority over trains convoys with provision to Wehrmacht. So he allowed starvation of own army without food and ammunition's to allow exterminate more "enemies of the state". That is dedication without "Madman Hitler" orders.
I wonder how the East-German Nationale Volksarmee dealt with former Wehrmacht officers? The Eastern Front was undeniably a showcase of the Wehrmachts active involvement and participation in the extermination war. So Eastern European countries must have some reaction to rehabilitating former Wehrmacht officers in the Volksarmee of the GDR?
To my knowledge, the topic was ignored abroad. The hardwave with the DDR was "they're the antifascist proletarians who resisted the nazis" and you wouldn't want to push it too much. Each regime's government wanted to showcase it had a special relationship with the USSR, and it was the USSR after all who "in the brotherhood of arms with our people smashed the fascist invader and brought peoples democracy to our state" or so they'd say... so surely they'll keep "our" germans in check and their germans out? TLDR east germany got the "nooo they're the Thalmanns" treatment, and you wouldn't really ever see DDR officers- only your own and sometimes Soviet
volksarmee used several wehrmacht generals (if they didnt refuse to serve)but generally speaking eastern germany was harsher against ex nazis than western germany.there were exceptions off course.and eastern bloc loved to accuse westerners from ,,hiding the nazis"but (from time to time)it did the same but not publicly and not so often.
Yes, they were very, very curageous, living during the Wirtschaftswunder and telling their elders who had to survive the NS time how they would have single-handedly defeated the NS state if they were born earlier. It wasn't "young Germans", it was older ones that broke their silence at the end of their lives. Some others, like Bauer, tried to hold the NS profiteers responsible the first opportunity they got. Then, there were the "badbad evil elders", who either had taken part willingly and then tried a lot for the younger generation to not get into a criminal system, and those who had to integrate a lot of people who had taken part in crimes into a new state. There are a lot of things that weren't done well; however, they were done by people who tried to build a state where something like the NS time could never, ever, happen again. In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea to keep the people in the justice system in place. Otherwise, old NS people could go on with their lifes if they didn't commit too severe atrocities, IF they kept their opinion to themselves and didn't try to rebuild a NS state. (Because of the Wirtschaftwunder, why should they?) This was unjust, but the Federal Republic still exists and isn't the worst of liberal democracies. Taking responsibility for history began in 1945, and got a boost when the system was well-established and the economy worked. It was from those beginnings to take responsibility for history BY THE OLD GENERATION "young Germans" piggy-backed onto and started to do loudmouth happenings.
@@enysuntra1347 while you have a few salient points in there, it’s worthwhile to correct you on a couple of notes. The correction of the revisionism didn’t happen during the Wirtschaftswunder years, it happened during the Vietnam War protests, the student unrest of 68, and (significantly) the oil crisis. It’s strongly tied to a youth movement across the Western World that for better or worse reckoned with the past, and pushed things like the civil rights movement, gender emancipation, human rights, and individual liberties into the mainstream discourse of society. While you are correct that a) the Bundesrepublik was a serious and successful attempt at disabling a Nazi resurgence, and b) that a large part of the reckoning came from the NS Generation themselves, it would not have been possible without a tectonic shift in public discourse. That shift was largely brought about by the youthful discontent of the Baby Boom Generation, and carried forward by Generation X (full disclosure: I’m of the latter).
@spartacus-olsson Full disclosure, I am also from (the latter part of) Gen-X. I have to correct you, the reckoning began BEFORE the student unrests. Cf Götz Aly, Unser Kampf - here, he brings sources that prove that the shift began in the beginnings to mid-1960s, and he even points out that under Kurt Georg Kiesinger, the shift began in earnest. Kiesinger was criticised for his NS past, but that may have been why he let people inquire into the past. The train was already well underway when the 1968 students entered it; and the oil crisis was in 1973. So you got it bass ackward. The "youthful discontent" seems to have been started as a consequence of the older generation reckoning with Germany's past. It got more and more untenable for those trying to play down the extend of the crimes ("Asiatische Tat", Historikerstreit) because of the pressure also by the 98ers - however, the staunch K-Gruppen and SDS "revolutionaries" had no problem to work under people who helped finance the NS war. Many of them went into business, where bankers like Abs was present up until the 1990s.
@@spartacus-olsson TH-cam filters again, so I'll try to say it again "filter-friendly". The reckoning began during the early 1968s, cf Götz Aly, "Unser Kampf". The student protests got on a train already moving. The oil crisis of 1973 seems to have little to do with it, it was almost 10 years after the topic went ahead.
Sadly the myth has taken hold. In fact I had someone on Twitter saying most of the SS were ordinary people the other day. Seems we’re all too eager to forget.
SS members where probably chilling like the british colonial troops keeping the colonies of india (keeping food to england causing a starvation there of millions) and parts of africa in order, you know showing who is the master, the hipocrosy is palpable even to this day from the anglo allied victors.
Hi Sparty One of the most important topic you covered. Many speaking about the clean wehrmacht but as you said at the end of the video it is impossible without armed force support so many people killed. Most escaped justice. But we need to remember and never forget
Growing up in Britain in the 70's, we had weekly anthology comics. Some of which were war based. Usually telling stories of plucky Tommies running rings round German Soldiers. Who would say 'achtung schweinhund!' or 'verdammit Englander!'. They did fairly regularly run stories from with German lead characters. Usually an honourable soldier who would have to Battle nasty SS men as much as they battled Allied troops. I remember saying once 'why is it always the nice Germans? Why not do a story about the nasty Germans?'. You don't know any better when you're ten years old. One well remembered story 'Hellman of Hammer Force' was about an honourable tank commander trying to fight his war with honour. And coming against the SS every so often. That was reprinted recently in two volumes. It didn't stand up quite as well as I remembered. But when it gets into 1945 it doesn't entirely pull it's punches. We see civilians murdered by the Red Army. We see Hellman and his crew find a concentration camp. And how the fanatical Hitler Youth member of his crew reacts to that. So I give it some points for trying.
That happens when Franz Halder (Chief of the General Staff of the German Army High Command) writes history. He even got the Meritorious Civilian Service Award in 1961.
If you step back, your argument of 17 million killed people is very powerful. Just from the logistics and purely organizational point of view, Einsatzgroupen even supported by local police units and the population, would have been unable to organize this scale of massacre. It is not only the bullets at the end. All those people being detained first, most probably "housed", patrolled, and transported. They may have been killed right away (on the spot), but that means that the front units of Wehrmacht were still present, and the area was under their jurisdiction.
So true - the scope of this murderous undertaking and 12 million enslaved or pressed into subsistence labor, mostly _inside_ Germany itself is also what makes any statement of ignorance by Germans of the time patently absurd.
@@spartacus-olsson And where do you get most of the 17M victims from if not with the help of the Wehrmacht? It would be rather challenging for the Germans to do anything genocidal in Poland or Austria or elsewhere without the Wehrmacht.
@@robertjarman3703absolutely - our human mind can’t really process the impact of such numbers, so it’s not understood what it means. The reality is what you said.
German generals' greatest defense at Nuremberg: "We were just following orders." Allied prosecutors: "Following orders for what?" Its interesting to note that generals from nations that were very authoritative or enacted crimes against humanity tend to have a narrative that the military was freed from politics. This is noted in the Confederate States of America, Burma, Rhodesia, and many more. They say victors write history. I think its clear to say, losers write history in their visions.
It's a social thing. Command officers of all countries are like a caste and they feel more connection to command officers of the other side then to their own troops. This sentiment is not new but it's a carry-over from the middle ages - knights Vs peasants and it could be observed almost in every war since Charlemagne.
The Lost Cause myth didn't really become popular until after WWII. The 1950's through the 70's had a lot of history being "reexamined", or being rewritten.
@@christopherconard2831it was popular, but the lost cause narrative back then was much different than the modern day due to changing political landscape. Back then they argued that segregation was for their own good, but once segregation policies started to become reversed the tune changed to the modern day version.
The sad thing about this myth is that even though the evidence is more accessible than ever, it lives on just as strong. Thanks for your hard work Sparty and Time Ghost. I know it cannot be easy.
At 18:25 it is worth spelling out that the war started when Hitler went in to Poland, having agreed with Stalin to carve it up. He had a pact with Stalin from before Poland up till he invaded the USSR. There was absolutely nothing defence in any way about the war.
Carve it up? No, Stalin just returned all territories poles stole to their rightful owners (Belorussian SSR, Ukrainian SSR, Lithuania and Slovakia). Hitler actually had a pact with Poland as well, but the latter refused to comply and tried to pretend it was a great nation as well.
Ironic, Poland has signed a pact with Hitler years before Stalin did, and he never got himself dirty by meeting Hitler in person unlike Polish leaders, and there wasn't any agreement to carve up Poland, the Soviet troops have crossed the border after Polish government had already fled, and 12 days after Germans invaded Poland.
No, war started when Munich agreement was signed, giving Germany Czechoslovakian territory with weapon plants that had a production output large enough to made invasion of the USSR possible, every third German cannon was Czech made in ww2.
I get frustrated when I see people saying that Germany has sincerely apologized. They don't know how defensive the Germans were when the only ones at fault were the Nazis and the SS and that the Wehrmacht behaved well.
these campaigns to sanitize also gave the ideology, and the idealogues, of fascism a boost in right-wing political circles in the west, and also, recently in the former soviet bloc. the evidence for this is to be seen in the resurgence of authoritarian and xenophobic régimes in Europe and the Americas. never forget. (although it seems we are forgetting)
Rommel was so fantastic of a general that he failed to take tobruk from the australians and new zealanders. Despite a numeric and qualitative advantage.
I'm really not proud to admit: 3 of my 4 great grandfathers were soldiers in the Wehrmacht. I never got know one of them in person. I know about one, that he had been part of occupation troops on Crete (Greece). And that he really liked it there and would have loved to see it again after the war. He later got wounded at the eastern front by shrapnell; was sent back there after he was cured; became a POW but was released short after the end of the war. He lived in the soviet zone of Germany and later GDR and therefore could never visit Crete again in his life. He told my grandmother (his daughter) about what happened when he was a soldier and she told these things on to me. She is not interested in history or politics, so she couldn't really evaluate the statements of her father. He told her "When we were on Crete, that was the most beautiful place I've ever seen. We had it good there. Sometimes in some villages there happened to be partisan attacks on us. When that happened, we would round up all the local men of that village, old, young, even older boys, and had to execute them." 😔 And even though he was part of brutal war crimes there (being part of regular Wehrmacht troops; no SS; no "special" death squad), he always wanted to go back there. That makes me think that he had been convinced to do the "right" thing and never reflected himself about that. Later he lived a normal live as factory worker/craftsman and was even very appreciated among the people in his town. Feels really bad to think about that😮💨
Really important and very good video on the topic - not take away from this, but will there be a similar one on Allied crimes and the complete lack of accountability for their leaders? (Tokyo Fire Bombing, Laconia Incident, Patton as a general leader, Paratrooper orders on D-Day etc.)
I’ve covered those of course, and I will make a video about a complicated and controversial concept called reciprocal response in connection to the upcoming Nuremberg Trials coverage. SPOILERS BELOW. Beyond the obvious fact that it’s tricky to prosecute your own leadership, there was a legal issue. A common law in the customs of war was understood to be unaffected by the Conventions of the Hague. In oversimplified terms it meant that if all belligerents used an illegal practice, even if one party started it, it was to be considered legal for the purpose of the conflict in question. This could arguably be applied to for instance strategic bombing, despite that targeting civilians was clearly in violation of the Conventions of The Hague. Although not all legal scholars agreed, and still don’t agree that the law applied, the doubt was enough to not pursue some types of crimes. This was applied to both sides, so for instance; neither Arthur Harris, nor Albert Kesselring were charged with the crime of deliberately targeting civilians by terror bombing, although both did it. Then there’s the whole issue of winners and losers, but a) don’t expect too much there, generally speaking the criminal energy on the Axis side wildly outdid the Allies - even when you include the Soviets. And b) for a more nuanced and comprehensive answer you’ll have to wait for the video. Oh, lest I forget; the concept of reciprocal response was explicitly written out of the laws of war in the 1950s.
I love these legacy specials. I'm really looking forward to the Nuremberg Trials special. Never seen a detailed rundown of what exactly happened there.
Rules of civility and this platform's guidelines prevent me from writing what I feel should've been done. Justice wasn't just prevented, or cheated, but proven to be only for "lesser men" while "great men" write history and enjoy the spoils.
I hope this video is shown to a lot of kids that are in history class. I finished school 12 years ago. Even I was taught this myth and, my friends. We all loved WW2. Believed it. I only stopped believing in the myth when I came across a video by TH-camr called 3 Arrows in 2019.
This is one I've legitimately never heard. I always hear about the generals being monsters, so to hear that anyone would try to defend them is very intriguing
I think many people watching may find what is said here to be fairly banal, obvious: Of course the German army was involved in war crimes, of course wide parts of society after the war were rehabilitated after pro-forma "denazification". I think there's a generational gap that even I have noticed. If you had the pleasure of speaking to Germans of the post-war boomer generation, they will tell you that there was a long gap of silence in the 1950s and 1960s, that German society would not talk about what had gone on (though wouldn't deny it either) and most definitely would not talk about the responsibility or past of those now in office in West Germany. Yes, there were of course a number of trials for those directly responsible, but the question of the larger role of everyone else was not addressed. It is further events like the Holocaust TV special in 1978, the Ostpolitik of the late 60s and the publication of the Braunbuch that caused sea changes towards remembrance and a reevaluation of German's of their history. But before that, a lot of this stuff was not banal and the clean Wehrmacht myth remained the coping mechanism of post-war Germany. I also remember when there was the "Verbrechen der Wehmacht" exhibition in the early 2000s which made the rounds across large parts of the German speaking world particularly to condemn this myth. I did go to see it when it came, and do remember being shocked at the very graphic nature of the photos from the Eastern Front.
To be fair there fear is not unfounded and the German country will need an army eventually the Soviet Union did have real intentions are expanding Weston to Europe
But Russia is going to withdraw to their original borders and leave the other countries to choose their own government style and leadership, right? Stalin wouldn't lie.
@@marcel-ifc17 Yes, because the soviet army had absolute superiority in every single way, specially numerically, They could have just steamrolled france, the u.s and english armies but weirdly stalin didn't do it, Somehow
@@christopherconard2831as opposed to Anglo-American ls who don't crush all communist movements in lands thet got to occupy? I don't get it with you people, communism was at all time high in late 40s and 50s and communist movements were strong all across the world, including western world, but there it got suppressed and outlawed on the ground of political confrontation with USSR.
Another problem with the Wermacht's general, those that were executed that is, they blamed everything (i.e. military reversals)on Adolf Hitler while not saying their own mistakes.
If you'd like to read some more you could check out "The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality" by Wolfram Wette, it was one of the sources for this video. Thank you for watching.
@@helmortkuper2626 The obvious response as always, is being a Nazi sympathizer is a choice, being a Jew or a Slav or a Homosexual is not, thats why calling one rodents is okay, and the other isnt, hope this helped you.
So a combination of geopolitical necessity in the face of the Soviet threat, naivety on the part of the Allies, and a genuine admiration of the German general staff’s tactics and strategy all contribute to the Clean Wehrmacht myth. An unfortunate situation that I’m glad is being remedied now as more and more historical works are being made denouncing it
I might be wrong here, especially as I do not have the book at hand - but wasn't it the case in Guderian's memoir that on many pages he swore that NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CAMPS, yet on one of the pages mentioned something about an officer who did something wrong and it was a reason for concerns as everyone knew it could land the guy in a camp?
everyone knew camps existed (it was public knowledge admitted by government and even since the first days)but almost no one knew anything about what was going on inside of them and almost no one ever heard of systemic genocide.it was more considered as a prison for political reasons.and people were often too scared and brainwashed to ask questions -but it made sense to think of it as prisons.and many including many british civilians(just read orwell he mentions it too)were till the end skeptical towards any stories of german cruelties because they always claimed that it is mostly,, propaganda as in WWI in belgium".
The clean Wehrmacht myth is just one of so many rewritings of history - rewritings that are still happening today.
Join the TimeGhost Army so we can bring you the real stories of our past!
As an American - please the rest of the world call what is happening here what it is. They're weak cowards who you should not be afriad of, don't back down and help the just here apply pressure
@@randomchannel-px6hoit's crazy lol.
@@randomchannel-px6ho What are you talking about?
I am so tired of reading commenrs that state, (only) victors write the history. Losers have long written their own histories, and some have even become received wisdom among many people. So, stop thinking that only victors write the history is in any way an argument in defense of the horrible things losers have done while losing their war, nor is it even true amyway.
When anyone says, "Let's leave the past in the past." Speak up, "Oh so you mean, 'Let's make sure this happens again.'"
Hindenburg 1919: "We didn't lose the war we were stabbed in the back"
von Manstein 1946: "I'm shocked! Shocked to find genocide going on here!"
vpn Manstein: we didn't lose the war, we were stabbed in yummy back by Hitler
Remember the germans committed mass murder also in WW1 in Belgium.
Not as bad as in WW2, but they still did it.
I'm reminded of a similar scene in Casablanca.
Captain Renault: I'm shocked to learn people gamble here.
Waiter: Your money Captain.
Captain Renault: Thank you.
Remember both events are war lies how much of a goy can you be?@@Jakob_DK
It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - TH-cam" th-cam.com/video/7OUR5uvs9aw/w-d-xo.html Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!
the idea of the innocent genius generals is so fuckíng persistant, I come across it constantly in my work as a historian
It's been in every movie, every tv show, every conversation at every corner bar "If Hitler only would have listened to his generals ...'
So did I in reading my first history books in the 1970's-80's. But after the end of the Cold War a lot of what he is talking about came out.
@@Kraniumbrud Me too. So as videos of ex Wehrmaht vets.
"We have no regrets".
"Wir hatten unsere Befehle".
They were fundamental in NATOs survival so therefore they were white washed.
"Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face."
I think that it's important to point something out in regard to Erwin Rommel; the prosecutors at Nuremberg knew that the main defence each defendant would give would be 'I was just following orders' so they looked for examples of when members of the German armed forces refused them. The best example they could find was Erwin Rommel's refusal of the Commando Order given by Hitler in October 1942 which instructed for all commandos to be executed upon capture even if they surrendered or were in uniform. This example enabled the prosecutors to show that it was in fact possible to refuse an order deemed to be immoral and shut down that argument as a valid way to justify the carrying out of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Rommel's Afrika Korps, in coordination with SS leader Walter Rauff of the gas van fame, is responsible for the numerous concentration camps in Libya and Tunisia. After their defeat in North Africa, the Jews and other undesirables in the concentration camps were shipped to Europe.
choosing the most popular german general to use as a standard by which they ignore orders is a bad one, very few had popularity as a shield.
@@bringerofword4644did they deserve a shield at all in your view?
No German general or marshall was ever executed after disobeying orders. They were fired and placed in the Führer Reserve. Von Rundstedt (the one who probably comes closest to "clean hands") holds the record.
@@bringerofword4644people praising Rommel forget that he was his bodyguard at some point, him wishing to get rid of his boss has little to do with atrocities
I am so glad that you are doing this Legacy series, it wraps up all the loose ends that remained when the war ended.
Thanks for the comment, we still have a few more things to cover like the Nuremberg Trials. Stay tuned.
@@peterfriedenspfeife9230 me too, combined with the late Spies and ties this really is a great way of Continuing a great format.
This should be required viewing for anyone with a baseline interest in WW2
It's great that this video exists. Unfortunately, the truth is rarely told and lies are mostly spread on this topic. Because it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - TH-cam" th-cam.com/video/7OUR5uvs9aw/w-d-xo.html Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!
@@_Jaspy_ If you find and read my comment you will know why you are wrong!
@@_Jaspy_ I'm actually just describing historical facts and then making the logical conclusions! There's nothing weird about that!
I had a girlfriend when I was young who's father was in the Hitler Youth. Even though he was very young at the time he told me that pretty much everyone knew what was happening to the Jews to some degree. They may have not known the full extent about the camps etc. but nobody thought they were being treated well.
Also he had no choice in joining. A lot of people replying on here are acting holier than thou yet one would have to be a super hero to stand against an authoritarian government's orders ❤
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb Actually you cant say that.
I have studied history in germany, so I know studies and primary sources in the language. There are far more examples where people had choices, in fact if it was not about direct resitance, a lot of people and actions which did not joined the Nazis in germany where not punished, or even changed nazi politics, because the Nazis where very eager to hold the german population peacful and cooperative.
For example there is a whole study about Bavaria and the christian paralell societies in the small villiages, where a lot of stuff happened the nazis did not liked, even offcialy wanted to stop but they did not because they dont wanted to provoke the people there.
Other examples are even on higher grades, whole commanders of military units who did not really followed the Kommissarbefehl where just overload, while yes others got no promotion or some degradation and still.
There are even such examples as oskar schindler, who came through with his actions the whole time, and he was not a single person doing just stuff on his own, but an big industrialist.
The reality was much more complex and between resistance and resiliance where abig difference, moste things people did and had actualy choices where no question to be "a super hero to stand against an authoritarian government" but more to stand out of certain paths which seamed easy, but not every otehr path was already a death sentence or a ticket to jail.
@@Tarnatos14 are you trying to say that young people in Germany then didn't have to join the Hitleryouth if they didn't want to?
@@Tarnatos14 you are right in a way because my response to you was blocked. Proves that tyranny still exists. Even on this silly site.
@@Tarnatos14 I'll try again
As a trial attorney for the last 30 years, I truly marvel at this presentation. You have distilled from thousands of documents the most illuminating and damning quotes. Your "demonstratives," or graphics, are brilliant at proving your claim. I know how much work it is to compress this vast body of evidence into 24 minutes. Well done!
Props go to James Newman who researched and wrote this. I’m very critical when someone else writes for me, especially a topic like this that is within my speciality, so I usually end up making a lot of changes to both content and script. In this case it was as close to a home run I’ve received - only minor changes for language and extra clarity on my part.
When I was in high school, a WW2 vet came to talk about his experiences. He was taken POW by the Wehrmacht during the Battle of the Bulge He told us that he was surprised how well he was treated by the Germans. When he asked them about it they said "Oh, yeah, we're just soldiers. It's the SS who are really evil." Whether they genuinely believed that or not, it's unfortunate that this vet took that as the truth in the face of Nuremberg. As a kid hearing that from a firsthand source, *I* took that as the truth until I went to college and started reading about WW2 on my own. Thank you for your efforts to dispell this myth. It's unfortunately very necessary these days.
But he was treated better by the regular German army ❤
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb"better..." so he wasn't tortured and worked to death because he wasn't a jew! Aw good job to the german army!
Thats a strange conclusion to draw from something like that. The statement from the Wehrmacht Soldier isn't false or a lie - yes, the Wehrmacht were enablers and at times even conductors of the genocide, but the SS explicit purpose and mission, unlike that of the Wehrmacht, was murder of civilians and "cleansing" the occupied areas.
On the western front it has some truth to it. The SS did have a habit of killing POWs, see the Malmedy or Normandy massacres. The large scale Wehrmact war crimes were mostly on the eastern front, which is probably why it was easy for westerners to ignore.
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb Belive me they treated the Soviets far worse.. in fact they even treated the soviest worse than there own standard said to treat.
I was studying history at university back in the 1990. The Wehrmachts exhibition of 1995 appeared during my first semester in the masters studies. I took part in a course calles "Comparison of tank divisions of the Wehrmacht and the SS". The professor had even invited old veterans from both Wehrmacht and SS to take part. Very interesting class.
At the end he showed a film shot by the grandfather of a student, who took part in anti-partisan war as part of a police unit. While he never filmed any direct attrocities I remember one scene very graphically - a few civilioans being lead behind a wooden bilding and one guard laughing into the camera while suggestively raising his pistol. Very disturbing scene. But for me personally the most disturbing thing was that I used to ride my bike to schoo on exactly the same street the soldiers marched on towards the train station to be shipped off to the front. I recognized many buildings and trees. Thinking back now: I rode that way 40 years ago and at that time another 40 years ago the policemen marched off to hunt partisans. I count maself lucky that I was born at a time of peace for Germany and I shudder thinking about what I might have done if I had been born just 40 years earlier...
Thank you for sharing this. People outside our country often have a hard time understanding the experience of the last 50 years as the nation came to grips with what truly happened. The comparatively formidable and responsible way that Germany has addressed its past is admirable, and one of the key reasons that I chose to live here.
@@spartacus-olsson
And even so, the roaches are crawling through the floors under a new guise (AFD).
10:50 "The army would've won the war, if Hittler wasn't meddling..."
Sounds like a line from Scooby Doo. :D
as funny as it sounds it is a possibility highly debated
@@massiarmy751Other than the fact some meddling by Hitler worked out well
@@massiarmy751 It is not.
If Hitlwe wasnt meddling: first there would have been no war at all, so nothing to win, second there would be no "Sichelschnitt" through the ardennes.
You cant seperate Hitler from meddling with the war, as the war was his meddling from the first point, and to cite Keitel about Hitler 1940: "der größte Feldherr aller zeiten" (greatest general/warlord of all times)
Unfortunately, my comment regarding the whitewashing campaign regarding the entire nation has been deleted. Strangely enough, the comment wasn't deleted when I posted it directly under the video. So if you're interested in the whitewashing campaign, you'll unfortunately have to look for my comment here and read it there.
And his meddling dog, Blondie.
1946: "I was only following orders." "That's no excuse!" 1949: "I was only following orders." "You know you may have a point."
Please ignore those that did refuse to follow certain orders and were simply removed from their previous position. The idea of "It was follow orders or be shot" was made popular as an excuse later on.
Is it OK to follow Netanyahu’s Orders? Why are the “democracies” protecting this War Criminal?
All the times that Indy said 'smiling' Albert Kesselring, and burned it into my brain. Now we know why hes smiling; and im upset that he was allowed any amount of control over the narative of the war and his own trial sentancing him to death.
Thanks for watching.
It's great that this video exists. Unfortunately, the truth is rarely told and lies are mostly spread on this topic. Because it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
Why is it done that way? Why is it done that way? Why is the lie being spread of the few Germans who were responsible for the crimes? At first in 1945, the Americans had the right attitude regarding the Germans, as this educational film shows for the US Army. „Your Job in Germany - TH-cam" th-cam.com/video/7OUR5uvs9aw/w-d-xo.html Then pragmatism prevailed over justice! Becaus after the war, the Americans believed the Germans would be useful as allies! So in the 50s, most of Germans became the ally of the West. (West Germany). The problem, however, was that they were completely amoral and degenerate. The West could not be allied to a morally degenerate nation that has murdered millions of children, among other crimes. The Germans were practically systematically washed clean to be tolerable as allies. So the Germans were washed clean by propaganda (Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc.) and the blame was put on relatively few Nazis. For this reason, a white washing campaign was launched relatively early after the war. Actually, the German crimes are permanently relativized by Western propaganda. Yes, there are always good Germans in Hollywood movies about World War II, according to the motto not all were Nazis. It was only logical that a movie was given the title "The Good German". I could go on like this for hours and describe 1000 examples in which the Germans were separated from the Nazi guilt by Western historians / media / politicians / Hollywood etc. So please always talk / write about the Germans in this context. Never about the Nazis! One shouldn't take part in the whitewashing!
It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why Germans and western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using Germans and Germany in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few Germans were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
It's great that this video exists. But it wasn't just the army that was whitewashed, but the entire nation and this is still being done today. That is also the reason why historians, the media and Hollywood etc. are constantly talking about the Nazis and not about the nation in this context! Because if one use the term Nazis, the impression arise that only the Nazis were responsible for the crimes. This is the reason why western historians and media etc. are constantly talk about Nazis and avoid using the name of the nation in this context. Unfortunately, the lie is spread successful that only relatively few were Nazis. So that gives the impression that relatively few were guilty! In fact, the vast majority of Germans were supporters and follower of the German Nazi government and thus they were Nazis! Therefore it is necessary to use the terms German and Germany instead of the Nazis! For example one also use Japan and not the Taisei Yokusankai! The Taisei Yokusanka party was the fascist party in Japan, just by the way. So It is appropriate to use the term Germans and it is therefore necessary to speak / write in this context of Germans/Germany and not of Nazis! GERMANS!
Sounds like the Wehrmacht generals learned a lesson from the Daughters of the Confederacy-losing the war, but winning the historical narrative.
It's certainly not just the German generals who did that. Western politicians, media and historians etc. are primarily responsible for whitewashing this nation as a whole.
It's certainly not just the German generals who did that. Western politicians, media and historians etc. are primarily responsible for whitening this nation as a whole. Ridiculously, comments are deleted with the term made up of wash and white, which is why I use the term whitening. I actually used the term with wash and white in my comment that I posted directly under the video and that comment was not deleted.
That's there because they are very involved in whitening this nation.
It's certainly not just the German generals who did that. Western politicians, media and historians etc. are primarily responsible for that. I mean whitening this nation as a whole. I word the comment so awkwardly because my comment was deleted and I worded it differently so that it wouldn't be deleted.
Ridiculously, comments are deleted with the term made up of wash and white, which is why I use the term whitening. I actually used the term with wash and white in my comment that I posted directly under the video and that comment was not deleted.
I think it was in the book, "The Nazi Doctors" a passage going something like this, "All you have to do in order to get good men to do horrible things is convince them of the "rightness" of what is asked of them."
The old " God is on our side" bit. Still in use today to control the masses.
@@stevew6138 a powerful and true Statement!
Ian kershaw in his hitler biography also debunk the clean wehrmacht and the myth that had hitler listened to his general, he'd won when the general could make mistakes too
I have that. It's excellent.
@@HeathenDance I got the condensced version in french, it also goes over wether hitler was socialist or not and kershaw doesn't portray hitler as one, the book also shows the mistakes didn't happened solely because of hitler
@@thebunkerparodie6368
He doesn’t even really spend much time going over Hitler being a socialist because it’s so obvious that he wasn’t. Kershaw just needs to point out that everyone he associated with and shared ideas with was far-right.
@@warlordofbritannia the problem with TIK take is his definition of socialist is also super wide, it's a good way to debunk his whole argument in my opnion (I still don't get the point of making a 5 hours long video arguing over a definition so wide tojo or well known french right wing politician would fit in)
@@thebunkerparodie6368 Another issue regarding whether Hitler was socialist or not is that many people tend to forget or disregard that Hitler often changed his opinion and perspective when it was beneficial. In particular, when he needed to court the Reichswehr and the Industrialists, and that Gregor Strasser's challenge to his power effectively excised the socialist faction while Goering and Himmler's instigation of the SA Purge in 1934 directly purged many of the remaining figures.
Jesus, this chapter is especially outrageous after following the events of this war for 6 years... Definitely a fitting ending to this dark period.
Rehabilitating the reputation of the Wehrmacht is akin to picking up a turd by the clean side.
Best example I've seen
Well put.
New one for me. I like it.🤔 Perhaps I'll borrow it. Thanks
But....but....never mind
@@Leanflare 🤗 See my Patton comment about them.
I love to see the 17 million number used, focusing on all holocaust victims, not just Jews.
Not that I have an issue with educating on Jewish victims, it’s absolutely essential, but as the descendant of Slavic holocaust victims, I obviously like when that side of it also gets attention.
Not to forget the sintezzi/romanji, LGBT, socialist and communist victims.
@@bobmcbob9856 💯 true, It is a shame how nobody wants to remember the whole story. Cruelty was an both sides, often worse, sometimes less.
@@ralphranzinger4197because even before the war has ended americans decided USSR is going to be their main geopolitical enemy, therefore the ground has to he created for the future confrontation. In practice this meant that in the west nazi crimes were reduced to just the genocide of jews and little more, leaving twice as many killed soviet people swept under the rug, because, you know, soviets are actually worse than Hitler and were the enemy the whole time! An interesting consequence of this is, since the understood evil of nazism is tied entirely to their mistreatment of jews, the latter going on their own genocide arc allows german nazi apologists to say "well, you see, jews ARE bad, therefore nazis weren't THAT evil". Of course from russian (or belorussian and polish but nowadays not so much from ukrainian) perspective jews being bad or not makes no difference - germans burned thousands of villages, brutally murdered millions of people and were going to starve to death the entirety of Eastern Europe.
@@MrZauberelefant Absolutely. I think the 17 mil includes them, and at least in the west “Gypsies and Homosexuals” is the second most widely known group of victims, after Jews, I feel
Tribalism at its worst. At this point, the 6 million matter to me far less than the other 11 because the majority get barely a fraction of press.
The number of people who still believe that the Wehrmacht was clean and righteous is worrying. You did a great job with this video !
As a kid I listened to my grandfather's stories about the war. He told my a lot of the atrocities he witnessed, but still insisted that "his" unit was always clean.
I think he could not accept that he was part of such a monstrous crime and wasted his best years (he was born 1920, so he effectively spent his whole 20s as soldier)
It's possible his unit wasn't involved in the Holocaust. Almost every front line soldier in every war killed civilians either on purpose or by accident ❤
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb As far as I know he was mostly Pilot for the Luftwaffe (until there were no planes left to fly). Still he witnessed the crimes (hanged "Partisans", burned villages,...), mostly in the east. The time in france must be relativly chill until ´44
@@lorenzg5912 it doesn't sound like he did commit crimes against humanity. Many allied soldiers certainly did.
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tb David, why are all of your comments under this video attacking the allies and defending the Nazis?
@@leonodonoghueburke4276 I'm defending the truth. People are forced into things and it's a bit unfair to judge them when you have not been forced into the same situation
A US general said " why are we taking advice from the Germans? They lost 2 wars"!
😂.
World wars even!
Yeah; Ho Chi Minh is who they should study at West Point
Out of curiosity, which US General said this?
True, but at least they turned up in time.
This has done as much to poison our view of history as the lost cause myth. The old adage “the truth will set you free” has never been more prescient as generations are left prisoners of lies dooming them to make the same mistakes
There's power in the truth, my friend.
The notion that there is some absolute truth just waiting to be found is the exact thing that leads to people believeing in falsehoods so absolutely
@@jasonweitzel4393
It is important to have perspective and understand nuance, but there are certain harder truths.
@@jasonweitzel4393what you said makes zero sense.
Truth is absolute and objective. Sure, there are situations where perspective can be relevant, usually in the form of context which is made up of other, related truths.
And people believe in falsehoods with fanaticism for emotional reasons, not because they believe that truth can be absolute.
What relativistic garbage you spout
@jasonweitzel4393 you sound like you need to take your meds
Anyone who thinks that any army is completely ‘clean’ is crazy. (Not saying this in defense of the German army, just saying).
Agreed, but clean of the Holocaust and other atrocities is a whole different thing. Not comparable to every other army, and you know this.
There is a big difference, all these clean wehrmacht guys where active fans of Hitler, disliked democracy, where ant-semites, agreed with disregarding the geneva convention ect ect. No army is innocent but some are nazis and others are not
@ yes, of course.
@@tsarfield5835different than allied 'De-housing'?? Please enlighten me..
@@brandonlance3601 De-housing=genocide?
I've been waiting for this one. Thank you. The Wehrmacht brass died on their soft pillows, with their weeping families by their sides unlike the people they murdered.
Just like the "Lost Cause" myth of the American Civil War, the "Clean Whermacht" myth puts the lie to the old adage: "History is written by the victors."
Yup. It's written by survivors
@@Significantpowerposterity…
It was very much written by the victors. Because mad ramblings of former Nazis were only disseminated around by the blessing of their new American masters. Without US backing, nobody would know about any of that.
History is written by the people who write. Both lost cause and clean Whermacht myths have had all too much ink dishonestly put to paper to spread them.
@ that’s an odd statement considering much historiography we have about the Vietnam War which clearly does not paint the US in a very good light. Also, that war was the first war reported on by independent journalists broadcasting live on location. It’s fair the first televised war even. Famously that reporting outraged the world, and launched widespread protests against America. I truly fail to see any validity to your point.
A’s for the Middle East… that’s a region, what event(s) are you referring to?
Read an interview with a German infantry sergeant in the Heer who had served on the eastern front. He hadn't been a supporter of the Nazis because his parents were Bavarian Catholics and supported the Centre Party so he was a bit removed from the party politics. When he was asked about the Holocaust he said that they weren't aware of the extent of it or what was really happening, but they knew something was happening to the Jews. He never saw the camps or the mass graves because they were rarely off the front lines. So if a random sergeant in an infantry battalion knew something was happening even if he didn't know the details then the Generals absolutely knew what was going on in detail. He found it hilarious that in 1942 those same men talked of Aryan supremacy openly and proudly, and in 1946 it was peace and love to all men.
Hello Mr. Olsson great video as always props to you and your team. However one thing I couldn't help but notice that your hands were shaking during some of the close up shots. I hope you are healthy . You and your team are truly a gem to the History community.
I’m fine, but I have a congenial tremor in my hands that is unfortunately progressive. I used to be able to mostly control it, but it’s getting tricky with the years. It’s harmless though irritating. Thanks for your concern though, and your kind words.
I have the same condition. My father and his father had it. The funny thing is that it bothers everyone else more than me ❤
@ same here, got it from my dad who got it from my grandmother. You’re right about other people, but it can be a bit of an issue in situations where people expect you to be nervous so they think you are. I usually preempt by just telling them before it gets all awkward. When he was still working, my dad nearly lost a big contract over it. Client saw him having a bear at lunch, and assumed shaking plus beer at lunch must equal serious drinking problem.
@@spartacus-olsson I agree. It's annoying when people think I'm nervous about something when I'm not. I'll use your technique and just tell them my condition.
It wasn't just the generals. The army had to issue orders forbidding soldiers from going along to watch Jews being shot in the USSR and Poland and filming and taking photographs of it. There is a German guy on TH-cam somewhere who shows the actual order. They knew, they obviously approved - at least some of them.
"We didn't know about it. Ok we knew about it but we didn't do it. Ok we did it but it wasn’t so bad. Ok it was pretty bad but we were just following orders."
“The only thing new in the world is the history you do not know.”
― Harry S. Truman
To the crew (that means you too, Sparticus), I hope you are taking care of yourselves; this can't be easy to be the voice of the past when covering such dark subjects.
When Stalin learned of the torture and killing of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya by members of the Wehrmacht 197th Infantry Division, he ordered that every member of that German division be killed rather than taken prisoner.
When the U.S. learned of the torture and killing of Zoya, they did everything they could in the postwar environment to suppress the story - in cooperation with the criminals who perpetrated it.
Ironically, Ukrainians just demolished statue of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya and the US support them.
Ukraine just demolished statue of Zoya, and the US support them.
Death was rather mercy looking at how soviets treated prisoners...
@@michazadkowski8516 And how was that?
Watching this video reminded me of the late Kurt Waldheim, the former president of Austria. While he was running for the said position in 1986, the revelation of his service in Greece and Yugoslavia during World War II, and of his knowledge of Nazi atrocities as an intelligence officer the Wehrmacht, raised international controversy.
Many other public figures in Austria, Germany and other European countries also had their careers marred by revelations of their association with Nazi Germany through their former service in either the Wehrmacht or the SS.
Thanks Sparty & team. This is an all around excellent episode. Great job!
Thanks Roy!
Our deep gratitude to that generation of German historians who did the work of helping to dispel the myth of the clean Werhmacht. And, as always, our thanks to the WW2 in Real Time team.
I've never really got to know my grandfather, he died when I was 4 years old. He was a Leutnant in the Wehrmacht and later rose to the rank of Oberstleutnant in the german Bundeswehr. He was an avid supporter of the clean Wehrmacht narrative and even spoke out in public against the NS-Documentation Center in Munich. Not surprising that he was an Alt-Nazi, i.e. believed in NS ideology until his death. Just thought I'd share.
Its a shame to see people in the comments just answering with whataboutism to such a topic
We try to keep the comments section civil, thanks for watching.
Whataboutism is one of those things where I tend to take at face value, but it is very frustrating no matter how valid a point is brought up. Nothing to be done for it but persist in upholding virtue.
A comment to show my support for the channel, and for the YT algorithm
You get a like for that.
@@Gogmosis two
Yes, there really is nothing to add here. Just satisfy algorithm.
@@Steeyuv three
I too interacted with this video
Franz Halder which besides planning also was responsible for provisions of Wehrmacht and exist documents where train convoys with prisoners towards extermination concentration camps had priority over trains convoys with provision to Wehrmacht. So he allowed starvation of own army without food and ammunition's to allow exterminate more "enemies of the state". That is dedication without "Madman Hitler" orders.
I wonder how the East-German Nationale Volksarmee dealt with former Wehrmacht officers? The Eastern Front was undeniably a showcase of the Wehrmachts active involvement and participation in the extermination war. So Eastern European countries must have some reaction to rehabilitating former Wehrmacht officers in the Volksarmee of the GDR?
There is a YT channel devoted to East Germany with a video about this topic. The communists were even bigger hypocrites.
Not like to get a say in the WP if Moscow says otherwise.
They disliked it but couldn’t do anything because Stalin but it’s why east Germany didn’t invade Czechoslovakia in 1968
To my knowledge, the topic was ignored abroad. The hardwave with the DDR was "they're the antifascist proletarians who resisted the nazis" and you wouldn't want to push it too much. Each regime's government wanted to showcase it had a special relationship with the USSR, and it was the USSR after all who "in the brotherhood of arms with our people smashed the fascist invader and brought peoples democracy to our state" or so they'd say... so surely they'll keep "our" germans in check and their germans out?
TLDR east germany got the "nooo they're the Thalmanns" treatment, and you wouldn't really ever see DDR officers- only your own and sometimes Soviet
volksarmee used several wehrmacht generals (if they didnt refuse to serve)but generally speaking eastern germany was harsher against ex nazis than western germany.there were exceptions off course.and eastern bloc loved to accuse westerners from ,,hiding the nazis"but (from time to time)it did the same but not publicly and not so often.
Applause to the young Germans who questioned their history!
Grass roots history.
Yes, they were very, very curageous, living during the Wirtschaftswunder and telling their elders who had to survive the NS time how they would have single-handedly defeated the NS state if they were born earlier.
It wasn't "young Germans", it was older ones that broke their silence at the end of their lives. Some others, like Bauer, tried to hold the NS profiteers responsible the first opportunity they got. Then, there were the "badbad evil elders", who either had taken part willingly and then tried a lot for the younger generation to not get into a criminal system, and those who had to integrate a lot of people who had taken part in crimes into a new state.
There are a lot of things that weren't done well; however, they were done by people who tried to build a state where something like the NS time could never, ever, happen again. In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea to keep the people in the justice system in place. Otherwise, old NS people could go on with their lifes if they didn't commit too severe atrocities, IF they kept their opinion to themselves and didn't try to rebuild a NS state. (Because of the Wirtschaftwunder, why should they?) This was unjust, but the Federal Republic still exists and isn't the worst of liberal democracies.
Taking responsibility for history began in 1945, and got a boost when the system was well-established and the economy worked. It was from those beginnings to take responsibility for history BY THE OLD GENERATION "young Germans" piggy-backed onto and started to do loudmouth happenings.
@@enysuntra1347 while you have a few salient points in there, it’s worthwhile to correct you on a couple of notes. The correction of the revisionism didn’t happen during the Wirtschaftswunder years, it happened during the Vietnam War protests, the student unrest of 68, and (significantly) the oil crisis. It’s strongly tied to a youth movement across the Western World that for better or worse reckoned with the past, and pushed things like the civil rights movement, gender emancipation, human rights, and individual liberties into the mainstream discourse of society. While you are correct that a) the Bundesrepublik was a serious and successful attempt at disabling a Nazi resurgence, and b) that a large part of the reckoning came from the NS Generation themselves, it would not have been possible without a tectonic shift in public discourse. That shift was largely brought about by the youthful discontent of the Baby Boom Generation, and carried forward by Generation X (full disclosure: I’m of the latter).
@spartacus-olsson Full disclosure, I am also from (the latter part of) Gen-X.
I have to correct you, the reckoning began BEFORE the student unrests. Cf Götz Aly, Unser Kampf - here, he brings sources that prove that the shift began in the beginnings to mid-1960s, and he even points out that under Kurt Georg Kiesinger, the shift began in earnest. Kiesinger was criticised for his NS past, but that may have been why he let people inquire into the past. The train was already well underway when the 1968 students entered it; and the oil crisis was in 1973.
So you got it bass ackward. The "youthful discontent" seems to have been started as a consequence of the older generation reckoning with Germany's past. It got more and more untenable for those trying to play down the extend of the crimes ("Asiatische Tat", Historikerstreit) because of the pressure also by the 98ers - however, the staunch K-Gruppen and SDS "revolutionaries" had no problem to work under people who helped finance the NS war. Many of them went into business, where bankers like Abs was present up until the 1990s.
@@spartacus-olsson TH-cam filters again, so I'll try to say it again "filter-friendly". The reckoning began during the early 1968s, cf Götz Aly, "Unser Kampf". The student protests got on a train already moving. The oil crisis of 1973 seems to have little to do with it, it was almost 10 years after the topic went ahead.
People want to believe the ordinary people can’t act like monsters
"I'm not aligned with nazi ideals."
19:38 *puts a giant red swastika on the cover*
Sadly the myth has taken hold. In fact I had someone on Twitter saying most of the SS were ordinary people the other day. Seems we’re all too eager to forget.
We're about to be reminded again after 1/20/25
Most of SS-Member were indeed odinary people - that is the crucial and horrific fact about us humans.
@@Stahlkralle44 Excellent point.
@@mikebunting7262the wall isn't to keep people out, it's to keep liberals in
SS members where probably chilling like the british colonial troops keeping the colonies of india (keeping food to england causing a starvation there of millions) and parts of africa in order, you know showing who is the master, the hipocrosy is palpable even to this day from the anglo allied victors.
A lot of this came out after the Wall came down and archives were opened with the end of the Cold War. I agree with Spartacus never forget.
A great study. I knew this before but your presentation was very compelling.
this is my favorite channel on yt!
And the best: there is so much content still to come.
Hi Sparty
One of the most important topic you covered. Many speaking about the clean wehrmacht but as you said at the end of the video it is impossible without armed force support so many people killed. Most escaped justice.
But we need to remember and never forget
The Sonder commands couldn't operate without the Wehrmacht
yes they could
This entire episode left me sick to my stomach realizing how excusing we were of Nazi war crimes. Hard to stomach.
Great work as always, you're doing big important thing
Thank you for the comment, we appreciate it!
Growing up in Britain in the 70's, we had weekly anthology comics. Some of which were war based. Usually telling stories of plucky Tommies running rings round German Soldiers. Who would say 'achtung schweinhund!' or 'verdammit Englander!'. They did fairly regularly run stories from with German lead characters. Usually an honourable soldier who would have to Battle nasty SS men as much as they battled Allied troops. I remember saying once 'why is it always the nice Germans? Why not do a story about the nasty Germans?'. You don't know any better when you're ten years old. One well remembered story 'Hellman of Hammer Force' was about an honourable tank commander trying to fight his war with honour. And coming against the SS every so often. That was reprinted recently in two volumes. It didn't stand up quite as well as I remembered. But when it gets into 1945 it doesn't entirely pull it's punches. We see civilians murdered by the Red Army. We see Hellman and his crew find a concentration camp. And how the fanatical Hitler Youth member of his crew reacts to that. So I give it some points for trying.
That happens when Franz Halder (Chief of the General Staff of the German Army High Command) writes history. He even got the Meritorious Civilian Service Award in 1961.
If you step back, your argument of 17 million killed people is very powerful. Just from the logistics and purely organizational point of view, Einsatzgroupen even supported by local police units and the population, would have been unable to organize this scale of massacre. It is not only the bullets at the end. All those people being detained first, most probably "housed", patrolled, and transported. They may have been killed right away (on the spot), but that means that the front units of Wehrmacht were still present, and the area was under their jurisdiction.
So true - the scope of this murderous undertaking and 12 million enslaved or pressed into subsistence labor, mostly _inside_ Germany itself is also what makes any statement of ignorance by Germans of the time patently absurd.
@@spartacus-olsson Just wanted to say thank you, guys, for the series that you are producing.
@ 🙏🏼
@@spartacus-olsson And where do you get most of the 17M victims from if not with the help of the Wehrmacht? It would be rather challenging for the Germans to do anything genocidal in Poland or Austria or elsewhere without the Wehrmacht.
@@robertjarman3703absolutely - our human mind can’t really process the impact of such numbers, so it’s not understood what it means. The reality is what you said.
excellent presentation. Thank you.
Thanks for watching.
So the new version of the “lost cause”
German generals' greatest defense at Nuremberg: "We were just following orders."
Allied prosecutors: "Following orders for what?"
Its interesting to note that generals from nations that were very authoritative or enacted crimes against humanity tend to have a narrative that the military was freed from politics. This is noted in the Confederate States of America, Burma, Rhodesia, and many more. They say victors write history. I think its clear to say, losers write history in their visions.
War is politics by other means, said one famous Clausewitz.
It's a social thing. Command officers of all countries are like a caste and they feel more connection to command officers of the other side then to their own troops. This sentiment is not new but it's a carry-over from the middle ages - knights Vs peasants and it could be observed almost in every war since Charlemagne.
The "Clean" Wehrmacht myth was just the German adaptation of the Lost Cause myth from the US.
True but can you name a country that has not committed crimes against humanity ❤
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tbI can name quite a few that didn't systematically murder millions!
@@DavidMcdonald-df8tbAntarctica?
The Lost Cause myth didn't really become popular until after WWII. The 1950's through the 70's had a lot of history being "reexamined", or being rewritten.
@@christopherconard2831it was popular, but the lost cause narrative back then was much different than the modern day due to changing political landscape. Back then they argued that segregation was for their own good, but once segregation policies started to become reversed the tune changed to the modern day version.
Excellent as always. The book Myth of The Eastern Front throws more light on the so called 'Clean Wehrmacht'.
Thank you for your work! It's so important to debunk the mysth.
Never has the saying “ The enemy of my enemy is my friend “ seemed to be so widely accepted in error 😢
Thank you for addressing this.
The Lost Cause folks are the champs here. Still this was a remarkable "clearing" of their record.
People who grew up in Yugoslavia had no delusions about a "pure" Wehrmacht.
Thank you.
The sad thing about this myth is that even though the evidence is more accessible than ever, it lives on just as strong. Thanks for your hard work Sparty and Time Ghost. I know it cannot be easy.
No surprise at all that elon musk touts the clean Wehrmacht b.s.
That's a stunning episode!! Way to go, boys!
also for the algorythm, can't wait for the nuremberg videos
Coming soon, stay tuned.
Thank you very much for this presentation.
Great channel.
When history meets realpolitik, history always loses.
Another great video
At 18:25 it is worth spelling out that the war started when Hitler went in to Poland, having agreed with Stalin to carve it up. He had a pact with Stalin from before Poland up till he invaded the USSR. There was absolutely nothing defence in any way about the war.
Carve it up? No, Stalin just returned all territories poles stole to their rightful owners (Belorussian SSR, Ukrainian SSR, Lithuania and Slovakia). Hitler actually had a pact with Poland as well, but the latter refused to comply and tried to pretend it was a great nation as well.
Ironic, Poland has signed a pact with Hitler years before Stalin did, and he never got himself dirty by meeting Hitler in person unlike Polish leaders, and there wasn't any agreement to carve up Poland, the Soviet troops have crossed the border after Polish government had already fled, and 12 days after Germans invaded Poland.
Ironic, Poland signed a pact with Hitler years before Soviets did, thinking to carve up USSR together.
No, war started when Munich agreement was signed, giving Germany Czechoslovakian territory with weapon plants that had a production output large enough to made invasion of the USSR possible, every third German cannon was Czech made in ww2.
@@kindlingking Poles didn't "steal" any territory
I get frustrated when I see people saying that Germany has sincerely apologized.
They don't know how defensive the Germans were when the only ones at fault were the Nazis and the SS and that the Wehrmacht behaved well.
these campaigns to sanitize also gave the ideology, and the idealogues, of fascism
a boost in right-wing political circles in the west, and also, recently in the former soviet bloc.
the evidence for this is to be seen in the resurgence of authoritarian and xenophobic régimes in Europe and the Americas.
never forget.
(although it seems we are forgetting)
Rommel was so fantastic of a general that he failed to take tobruk from the australians and new zealanders. Despite a numeric and qualitative advantage.
The Allies went to war with the Nazis and magically failed to find any once they got there
I'm really not proud to admit: 3 of my 4 great grandfathers were soldiers in the Wehrmacht. I never got know one of them in person. I know about one, that he had been part of occupation troops on Crete (Greece). And that he really liked it there and would have loved to see it again after the war. He later got wounded at the eastern front by shrapnell; was sent back there after he was cured; became a POW but was released short after the end of the war. He lived in the soviet zone of Germany and later GDR and therefore could never visit Crete again in his life.
He told my grandmother (his daughter) about what happened when he was a soldier and she told these things on to me. She is not interested in history or politics, so she couldn't really evaluate the statements of her father. He told her
"When we were on Crete, that was the most beautiful place I've ever seen. We had it good there. Sometimes in some villages there happened to be partisan attacks on us. When that happened, we would round up all the local men of that village, old, young, even older boys, and had to execute them." 😔 And even though he was part of brutal war crimes there (being part of regular Wehrmacht troops; no SS; no "special" death squad), he always wanted to go back there. That makes me think that he had been convinced to do the "right" thing and never reflected himself about that. Later he lived a normal live as factory worker/craftsman and was even very appreciated among the people in his town. Feels really bad to think about that😮💨
Really important and very good video on the topic - not take away from this, but will there be a similar one on Allied crimes and the complete lack of accountability for their leaders? (Tokyo Fire Bombing, Laconia Incident, Patton as a general leader, Paratrooper orders on D-Day etc.)
I’ve covered those of course, and I will make a video about a complicated and controversial concept called reciprocal response in connection to the upcoming Nuremberg Trials coverage. SPOILERS BELOW.
Beyond the obvious fact that it’s tricky to prosecute your own leadership, there was a legal issue. A common law in the customs of war was understood to be unaffected by the Conventions of the Hague. In oversimplified terms it meant that if all belligerents used an illegal practice, even if one party started it, it was to be considered legal for the purpose of the conflict in question. This could arguably be applied to for instance strategic bombing, despite that targeting civilians was clearly in violation of the Conventions of The Hague. Although not all legal scholars agreed, and still don’t agree that the law applied, the doubt was enough to not pursue some types of crimes. This was applied to both sides, so for instance; neither Arthur Harris, nor Albert Kesselring were charged with the crime of deliberately targeting civilians by terror bombing, although both did it.
Then there’s the whole issue of winners and losers, but a) don’t expect too much there, generally speaking the criminal energy on the Axis side wildly outdid the Allies - even when you include the Soviets. And b) for a more nuanced and comprehensive answer you’ll have to wait for the video.
Oh, lest I forget; the concept of reciprocal response was explicitly written out of the laws of war in the 1950s.
I love these legacy specials. I'm really looking forward to the Nuremberg Trials special. Never seen a detailed rundown of what exactly happened there.
Rules of civility and this platform's guidelines prevent me from writing what I feel should've been done. Justice wasn't just prevented, or cheated, but proven to be only for "lesser men" while "great men" write history and enjoy the spoils.
Never realized the extent of this...travesty of justice. It's depressing and illuminating.
I hope this video is shown to a lot of kids that are in history class.
I finished school 12 years ago. Even I was taught this myth and, my friends. We all loved WW2. Believed it.
I only stopped believing in the myth when I came across a video by TH-camr called 3 Arrows in 2019.
Thank you for the comment.
This is one I've legitimately never heard. I always hear about the generals being monsters, so to hear that anyone would try to defend them is very intriguing
They weren't some great war heroes with honor
"A big boy did it and then he ran away. It wasn't me !"
Thank You for this video!!!
And thank you for watching.
I think many people watching may find what is said here to be fairly banal, obvious: Of course the German army was involved in war crimes, of course wide parts of society after the war were rehabilitated after pro-forma "denazification".
I think there's a generational gap that even I have noticed. If you had the pleasure of speaking to Germans of the post-war boomer generation, they will tell you that there was a long gap of silence in the 1950s and 1960s, that German society would not talk about what had gone on (though wouldn't deny it either) and most definitely would not talk about the responsibility or past of those now in office in West Germany. Yes, there were of course a number of trials for those directly responsible, but the question of the larger role of everyone else was not addressed.
It is further events like the Holocaust TV special in 1978, the Ostpolitik of the late 60s and the publication of the Braunbuch that caused sea changes towards remembrance and a reevaluation of German's of their history. But before that, a lot of this stuff was not banal and the clean Wehrmacht myth remained the coping mechanism of post-war Germany.
I also remember when there was the "Verbrechen der Wehmacht" exhibition in the early 2000s which made the rounds across large parts of the German speaking world particularly to condemn this myth. I did go to see it when it came, and do remember being shocked at the very graphic nature of the photos from the Eastern Front.
Would have been interesting to mention how the Soviets reacted to early release of the Nazi generals. I imagine they weren't thrilled.
"Oh Crap we need a German Army to shield us from USSR" Some Ally Analyst
To be fair there fear is not unfounded and the German country will need an army eventually the Soviet Union did have real intentions are expanding Weston to Europe
@@Jarod-vg9wq churchill was close to do operation untinkable, so.. the allies 100% would have been striking first.
But Russia is going to withdraw to their original borders and leave the other countries to choose their own government style and leadership, right? Stalin wouldn't lie.
@@marcel-ifc17 Yes, because the soviet army had absolute superiority in every single way, specially numerically, They could have just steamrolled france, the u.s and english armies but weirdly stalin didn't do it, Somehow
@@christopherconard2831as opposed to Anglo-American ls who don't crush all communist movements in lands thet got to occupy? I don't get it with you people, communism was at all time high in late 40s and 50s and communist movements were strong all across the world, including western world, but there it got suppressed and outlawed on the ground of political confrontation with USSR.
It persists to this day. Especially in social media
This video is so important. Thanks for making it
Thank you for watching
This pretty much solidifies my views on Guderian - he was a far more proficient giant baby and scumbag than he was a tank commander.
Another problem with the Wermacht's general, those that were executed that is, they blamed everything (i.e. military reversals)on Adolf Hitler while not saying their own mistakes.
Are there any recommended books or sources to learn more about the myth?
If you'd like to read some more you could check out "The Wehrmacht: History, Myth, Reality" by Wolfram Wette, it was one of the sources for this video. Thank you for watching.
Brilliant. Thank you.
You're gonna rustle some Wheraboo jimmies with this one.
Already happened , and they were mostly turned around as they came in the door. If you spot any new rodents, feel free to alert us.
@@WorldWarTwoyou call people rodents? I thought that is the bad guy rhetoric?
@@helmortkuper2626I would call them victims.
@@helmortkuper2626 The obvious response as always, is being a Nazi sympathizer is a choice, being a Jew or a Slav or a Homosexual is not, thats why calling one rodents is okay, and the other isnt, hope this helped you.
So a combination of geopolitical necessity in the face of the Soviet threat, naivety on the part of the Allies, and a genuine admiration of the German general staff’s tactics and strategy all contribute to the Clean Wehrmacht myth. An unfortunate situation that I’m glad is being remedied now as more and more historical works are being made denouncing it
I might be wrong here, especially as I do not have the book at hand - but wasn't it the case in Guderian's memoir that on many pages he swore that NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CAMPS, yet on one of the pages mentioned something about an officer who did something wrong and it was a reason for concerns as everyone knew it could land the guy in a camp?
everyone knew camps existed (it was public knowledge admitted by government and even since the first days)but almost no one knew anything about what was going on inside of them and almost no one ever heard of systemic genocide.it was more considered as a prison for political reasons.and people were often too scared and brainwashed to ask questions -but it made sense to think of it as prisons.and many including many british civilians(just read orwell he mentions it too)were till the end skeptical towards any stories of german cruelties because they always claimed that it is mostly,, propaganda as in WWI in belgium".