Problematic or Woke??! - Big Trouble in Little China | Renegade Cut
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.พ. 2019
- Movies with both socially problematic elements and socially progressive elements exist. Example: Big Trouble in Little China. Support Renegade Cut on Patreon: / renegadecut
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thelongtake.net/2014/12/10/ge...
articles.latimes.com/1986-07-1...
uproxx.com/movies/big-trouble... - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Hey, guys who thumbs-downed the video between when I uploaded and right now: You didn't watch the video. It's nine minutes long, and your dislikes came within a minute or so of the video. If you watch it, you might actually learn something. Try harder.
Renegade Cut Good message, Leon. Unfortunately, most online numbskulls never learn their lesson.
nice preemptive strike
It's always a huge disservice to the fact your videos are so well researched and well written that people will just click in to downvote and not listen to a word of what you have to say.
They tried ;)
I like this video’s punchline.
Ok. Watched it. Learned plenty.
“Stuck his nose in where it didn’t belong”
Ol Jack B just wants his truck back.
the "John "I HAVE THINGS TO SAY" Carpenter"-line genuinely made me laugh so hard i teared up
You leave big trouble in little china alone
we are in its debt
In the movie's defense, I will simply say that Carpenter did go out of his way to get a lot of asian-american actor for the movie and they all have very positive memories of the movie. He's also heavily inspired by actual chinese myth and movies and not just american stereotypes.
This doesn't erase the problematic elements, of course, but I felt this was an important point in the movie's positive side.
@@iihh517 Prince of Darkness is an underrated gem in his filmography....
I remember loving this movie as a kid in part because I always related more with the studious, quiet humble and serious character who gets relegated to a back up role where they either die to tell the hero how great he was, or at the very least find a nice back seat after giving the hero the support/expertise he needed to succeed.
Then this movie came and that quiet studious serious character was kicking ass and every time the story's hero pushed him into the background, it was for just long enough to screw up and need saving. I'm not sure that dynamic would have appealed to young me as much without Jack Burton's loud, more traditional action movie heroics, up front to call attention to it.
Love it when RC does these three things:
-Invoke and critique my favorite movies from my Gen-X childhood
-Use a Star Trek reference
-Nuance the hell out of problematic American culture
Black Romulan I love it too.
So I'm half Chinese and I absolutely love this movie. Its definitely riddled with problematic elements depiction my culture but I always took it as the parody it felt like it was trying to be. That said, there's an important distinction between my 2019 "everything ironic is fantastic" eyes and how I would have seen it back in 1986. I have the luxury of seeing this film after it came out. So I never got to see the immediate effects of it or the racism within the social climate of that time. Instead I see it has an obvious parody. And I feel it's important to bring up that distinction. Because if this film were to be made today magically without any change made to it, I would probably be offended. I wouldn't see it as an obvious parody. But given the distance of time, I see it in a completely different light.
I'm also Chinese and I hate this movie
@@geraldbataga7510 please elaborate!
I loved this movie as a kid! I really need to go back and watch it again!
It was kinda awesome to see so many Asian actors on screen who weren’t poorly dubbed or just random henchmen/mini-bosses.
Legit one of my favorite movies. I don't feel that it's much more than an homage to actual, wonderful Chinese kung-fu cinema from the late 70s-early 80s with elaborate costumes and fantasy elements.
Yet there hasn't really been a positive and humanizing portrayal of asians since. It's the only western action movie I can think of where the Asian characters are protagonists and behave human or actually have personalities and not there for a task or some exposition.
The Last Samurai?
@@Enzaio Whoooooo boy.....That's a can of worms....
But Jackie Chan has made some western films? Like Rush hour and Shanghai Noon?
I still loves Big Trouble (it is awesomely fun), but the video does point things that are worth considering about it, especially in a time when some people would like to pretend that everything is black and white and middle ground must never be sought.
Probably my favorite John Carpenter movie
Ryan Grille Same, it’s probably in my top five all times favorite movies.
A tie between this and Nightbreed for me.
This, The Thing and Halloween are my fav from J.C. Although I still very much enjoy Vampires, They Live, Prince Of Darkness, The Fog and In The Mouth Of Madness.
Its one of those few movies where the main character's quotes or lines are unforgettable.
Orientalism also applies to (mostly North) Africa!
Love this video, though. Big Trouble was one if my favorite movies as a kid so it’s nice seeing it discussed as an adult.
Are you referring to Orientalism in African cinema? I would be interested in some examples, as I am not very familiar with African movies or movie culture.
@@HereComesPopoBawa I think they mean the portrayal of North Africans in American film. The imagery of North Africa, the Middle East, and India often muddled into one mystical exotic image of turbaned merchants and bellydancers in sandy bazaars and the dude who will saber a white protags ass in half before falling into the snake pit next to the hookah stand.
Eggchen: "You will come out, no more!"
Jack: "What!?" "Huh!? What will come out, no more!?"
Critics in 1986 really saw a different movie, Big Trouble in Little China has always been a favourite and I always wanted to be Wang Chi (… or Lightning)
You know what Jack Burton always says in a situation like this?
Who?
Jack Burton. Me! Jack Burton always says, “What the hell.”
The topic hits too close to home. Like how some people Think they're being sensitive and accepting but still use antiquated gender role stereotypes concerning certain (not "normal" in their eyes) sexualities. "He's gay?! Oh well, don't mind Him, he's just one of the Girls! I'm sure he could tell you all about How Men Are. He knows how it is, don't you, Girl Friend~" I get that you're being nice, and I like that you're trying, but could you please Not?
lmaooo true
please tell me you don't _still_ have to deal with people who are like this.... say it ain't so
Unearned familiarity is always annoying. People should get to know you as an individual, and then they'll know whether you identify with the kind of camp you are being unfairly saddled with.
Big Trouble in Little China is my favorite movie. It's one of the reasons I'm interested in East Asian cultures. The movie It's about saving the princess. If you hadn't skipped the Director's commentary you would know that no one working with John Carpenter (I mean the Asian people) thought the movie was racist. Problematic or Woke? Neither of the labels you are applying even existed when BTiLC was made. The difference between opinions is not equal.
I love this movie, but I think that at best it falls into the Starship Troopers problem, where while being a criticism of a thing it’s still enough of that that thing and does that thing well enough that a large part of the audience misses the criticism.
8:46 This is for anyone who doubts who the real protagonist of the movie is.
I'd say that Wang is the protagonist but Jack is the *star*, if that makes sense.
Fantastic point.
I LOVED this movie growing up and I still love this movie. Honestly, this movie got me interested in Chinese culture and history and made me want to take a few Chinese history courses in college. I think, obviously, that the audience needs to be aware that this is a Hollywood movie with stereotypes - and to not let it influence how we view Chinese in America. When all is said and done, this is a great movie that I think can open doors to better ways to portray Chinese culture on screen.
A step in the right direction, if followed by additional steps in the right direction, will still end up being further and further behind as time and progress goes on. But those still first steps are important in the long run.
Good video.
I really enjoy this movie and I appreciate you going into the more problematic elements of it. I never really considered it, outside of most of Kurt's lines that made me cringe even when i was too young to fully understand why. Idk how it makes me feel considering I'm a minority myself but I'm grateful for the insight to one of my guilty pleasures
"Because Rick Berman sucks" *smashes like button
One contemporary piece of media that might have made for an interesting and relevant "you tried!" analysis is Season 1, Episode 3 of The Orville, "About A Girl", which can be read as something between a response to and a reimagining of "The Outcast" - well-meaning in the extreme, deeply problematic in the particulars, and breathtakingly under-researched.
25 years after "The Outcast", TV's premier (and only) TNG tribute gleefully conflates physical attributes with gender identity and refers to gender confirmation surgery as a "sex change", but hey! It's an impassioned (if severely muddled) argument against intersex medical interventions! It's a mess in even the most charitable readings, and I haven't bothered revisiting the show since seeing it, but it speaks to many of the issues you've highlighted here. Worth checking out the episode and the critical response, I think.
I always saw it as fantastical and not what Asian culture is like at all, but if members of the community and press had problems with at the time of its release as well as today, who am I to say they’re wrong?
It's a touchy thing Asians in the west have to deal with on a near daily basis. (Likewise for us Native Americans.)
It's almost fetishistic how white people believe the "mystical/magical Asian" nonsense. Just look at any white person who uses "alternative" medicines instead of real ones.
Somehow it feels that studios don't always learn the right lesson from it's failures. While there will always be those that do in fact try and succeed, there are also of late some other massive issues that tend to act as act sized holes. And Star Trek as a whole always finds the landmines,not always with great success...
I really want to rewatch this now. The nostalgia is strong with this one.
It was both and still to this day one of my favorite scfi/fantasy films along with Buckaroo Bonzai.
Social progress is similar to scientific progress, where greater awareness of phenomena, be it data or points of view, leads to greater understanding and firmer footing moving forward.
I just wanted to say that a fair comparison to Big Trouble in Little China would be movies made by the Shaw Brothers in 1985 (they didn't have any 1986 releases I guess).
Intent is important, but you can still fail at something despite good intentions. John Carpenter is one of my 3 favorite directors. In my humble opinion, the movie is just a huge fuck you to Clint Eastwood (which Jack Burton likely an impersonation of) and the movies made for the character he was typecast for.
"China is here" - quote that pretty much proves your point. It was an intentional call-back to "Kung Fu Movies" of the 70s, with all the baggage that comes with it.
the magic figures at the end are actually referenced in ancient chinese magic
Well I liked it better than The Golden Child. That aside, even the more Xenophobic element of American society likes their dakimakura, but of course even that is a stereotype. Orientalism has become more cognitively dissonant over the years, rather than overt.
🤣John "I have things to say!" Carpenter🤣
Just wanted to say, you're becoming one of my favorite film analysis TH-camrs.
Thanks very much.
He is the BEST
Solid, brief analysis. Been thinking about this one a bit lately x
I love this movie to this day and it got me into eastern culture and mysticism. The villains are iconic and fascinating.
I loved this video (and generally all your stuff) but it wouldve been cool if you talked about the Outcast, by being a really clumsy attempt at a Gay episode, accidentally gave us a canonically trans character in Star Trek, and how the episode, if one ignores its intention as a Gay episode profits a great deal from reading it as a Trans episode instead. Some of the same criticisms can be applied to argue for its clumsiness but some of the bigger problems are reduced greatly.
My reaction just after reading the title and before watching was, "Yes." And I see that's the point of the video. Good job!
Good criticism. It’s also one of my favorites. Also, to what extent is this movie simply a modern version of one of those old serials if the ‘30’s?
TNG is one of my fav shows of all time
I loved the nice even slices of criticism in this video, great stuff RC, I only discovered this movie about 4 years ago and was blown away.
Does Crash get a "you tried" star or does it fail to even get that?
I would say that Crash's messaging about the causes of racism is so unhelpful that it's detrimental. There is no upside to Crash as it relates to what it is trying to accomplish.
I’m not so sure if they even tried. That’s giving the movie way too much credit in my eyes.
Good points made. As you said in a previous video (for Ghostbusters I believe), one can love a movie while still having criticisms of it. Loving something without any recognition of flaws is counterproductive and rather naive.
I have a question on this. John Carpenter has said that this movie is influenced most by Tsui Hark’s Zu:Warriors of the Magic Mountain. How much of what we see in Big Trouble in Little China comes from that as visual homage? How do we parse this sharing of visual and stylistic ideas across culture with the problematic elements of race in the film.
I have conflicting feelings about this film. I'm a 2nd Gen Asian American so of course like everything else in my life I feel conflicted. I remember liking this film as a child, but as I grew older some peers would point out how the movie gives into Orientalism and how they didn't like it. I haven't watched Big Trouble in Little China in a long time so I can't say for certain if it's more harmful than I realized as a kid, but as an adult I can appreciate how much I hated Kurt Russell's character when I was a kid because he was such a bumbling idiot.
i remember first watching this a couple years ago and the entire thing was a wild ride. in the first 15 to 20 min.s i really felt this ball of anxiety in my stomach, it felt too similar to the sort of exploitative action movies my dad would watch and i was about ready to turn it off, but i rode it out and after that first third of the movie, the ball of anxiety started to melt away and i actually really liked the movie. i agree that a lot of it is really cringy but overall, i think it is a movie that tried. i completely understand why some asian and asian american peoples would not like it at all, but at the same time, i think as a white product, it does its best to try and like you said, that is sometimes the best a movie can do: try.
on an unrelated note, I would love to see a video from you about Bram Stoker's Dracula. Rewatching it recently, i can't think of another movie that does so many things amazingly, but is also a terrible disaster.
Already did.
@@renegadecut9875 d'oh! ...but also, great!
Must be something in the air, was contemplating “The Mikado” one of my favorite Gilbert and Sullivan operettas, but problematic if I wish to be honest. It’s disrespectful to lacquer another culture onto your tear-down of British society like a mask, but I’m sure at the time they thought the incorporation of unfamiliar elements was wonderous.
This Movie is Great!!!! It's not perfect but it was something special and Unique to me and other movies. BTW it's a fantasy action flick that I really liked as a kid because it's protagonist were different races and backgrounds.
I would argue that the more troubling aspect of the film is not how Asian culture is represented but how women are portrayed in it. Gracie Law starts off as a brassy dame of sorts trading quips with Jack but is reduced to a damsel in distress who needs a man to come to her rescue. Same with Wang Chi's love interest who gets zero lines of dialogue. Margo also doesn't get to do much either. Maybe you should really take a look at that aspect of the film.
hmm, it's carpenter, so usuall he is not afraid to show strong women in his movies, maybe the movie it self is a critique of the damsel, not sure though
@@GaoDaHoi That's a major issue with many Asian cultures. Misogyny is so ingrained in our cultures it's difficult to fight it.
I had a long journey with my own internalized misogyny and finally seeing why it was harmful not to just me but the other women in my life.
I am female, really love this movie from my youth, and also saw/still see the potrayals of the female characters as self-conscious stereotyping. There was plenty of playing with tropes in the film, which is probably why I didn't find it off-putting.
@@GaoDaHoi Yeah, the outspoken sexy lady who doesn't listen to her elders is usually killed off or gets a comeuppance for having flaws, and the mild mannered, well behaved lady gets her marriage and happily ever after. Or she also gets punished because women are the ones expected to fix things. I remember a Chinese drama I watched a long time ago where the leading lady marries her love but he cheats on her and SHE had to work hard on changing his mind so he would fall back in love with her. Even as a kid I hated the leading guy and I wanted the leading lady to dump him.
@@GaoDaHoi It was a tv soap, IIRC. Pretty sure it was made in the 90s. I tried finding it but no luck because there are so many soaps and they all tend to use the same tropes.
This goes to show the benefits of representation in creative media. It is likely that a Chinese-American writer and/or director could have approached this in a way that was a bit more sensitive to these issues, and would probably have had some novel things to add to the satire in the plot.
New format, with humour, is great.
I’ve been waiting for this analyst for years. There are going to be some die hard fans that are gonna have a hard time digesting the subtle racism throughout the film. It’s such a cult classic for many.
Leon turned the sass up to 11 on this one lol...Great work as always!
carpenter is so fuckin underated its a crime
I always thought the film was intended to be obvious satire, but then I say this having missed the film as a youth. It's one of Carpenter's films that I didn't see until nearly 30 years after the fact, as a full-grown adult.
Has there ever been a movie produced by Hollywood where the heroes are from another nationality other than American?
Or where the US is the main antagonist to the protagonist(s) who are not American?
I am from South America I love both but Kurt Russell make my favorite is jack burton
I love that you put more salt in your reviews. More "Sassy Leon" please!
How about this, I'll have my family watch this: I'm the Uber WASP, Pinxia is Chinese, and our boys fall between these two cultures. Admittedly, a small sample, but we might be able to offer some insight.
Meanwhile, it probably created moire employment for actors of East asian ancestry that the rest of Hollywood, for that year.
Jack burton is definitelyyyyyyy not the main character lol
I watched this movie for the first a few years ago while living in Taiwan. It did strike me as odd knowing this was written by white guys and filtered creatively through a western viewpoint. It becomes an odd facsimile trying to concentrate broad generalizations of a diverse culture into something the audience can absorb.
Still the hot reporter from The A-Team.
This is a good video
Hey Leon, great video as usual. One thing that stood out as strange to me while watching, though, was the general lack of comment about The Outcast as it could relate to the transgender members of the community specifically - just talk about the gay angle. Given that it quite literally was about gender (whether conflated with sexuality or not), this seems remiss. Do you think it wasn't relevant given the likely intentions behind it?
One could read it that way, but that was definitely not the intention. It was 1992, and to be frank, the general public didn't know what "transgender" meant then. Transgender people have always existed, but outside of jokes about "transvestites" and such, it wasn't part of the public discourse. The script was explicitly written to be about sexual orientation. The term was even in the original script before it was removed. Also, I'm not sure that a trans reading of the episode would remove many of the problematic elements.
I could go on and on about The Outcast, but I tried to keep it as the short prologue only.
Renegade Cut (my friend wrote this from my account so I’ll have to show her next time I see her, but ty for replying!)
@@renegadecut9875 While I got you here
a) While it definitely was meant to be about sexual orientation that didn't mean that the general public had no awareness about transgender folks. While you're right that it wasn't part of the discourse it wasn't a complete mystery either. Hell, at that point Dog Day Afternoon had been out for over fifteen years.
b) I don't think the episode implies that the conversion procedure actually works. I think that they were simply faking and trying to get Riker away as quickly as possible. The actress always seemed particularly panicked to me. Any extended contact between the two would raise suspicion and result her in having to face another bout of conversion torture. Faking it to avoid getting tortured even more is actually pretty true to real life. That's just my perspective though. You're right about the other points though - god knows what they were thinking when they decided using gender as their parallel for that episode.
Chasing Amy
Why am I not getting audio?
Must be something wrong on your end. I can hear it fine.
And now I *can* hear it. Weird.
I always take the race aspects of pastiche of western kung fu/chinese mysticism films. The criticisms are valid, but it's still one of my favorite movies.
I loved every second of this.
I think this one could stand to be remade. I love Kurt Russell's performance and how his character critiques white action protagonist. I would love to see what an Asian director and screenwriter(s) would do with the premise
Please no more remakes.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah no one wants that.
Im really happy I found this video. This was the immediate question I had when I finished watching this movie recently -- is this racist or isn't it?? It's really hard to tell at parts. I would love to hear more Chinese voices and their takes on this movie, especially.
This movie make me and my friends wanted to know more about Chinese culture and it’s like anime
I had actually watched this with a friend recently and laughed, and her response was at times to laugh at the racism and at other points to point out how its clear the white guy was incompetent and the butt of the joke, I also saw an analysis and review of it by "Chinese with Jessie" in which she pointed out Lo Pan resembling Fu Manchu, which surprised me (my obliviousness) because I had thought he resembled stock characters from Chinese media, but in learning that I realized one of its fumbles.
I also saw that while the Cantonese was accurate, the "mythological" characters didn't seem to have an recognizable Chinese analogues which is to be expected I suppose but disappointing as like many things in the west, people willfully interpret things through their archetypes.
I mean I'd also like to point out that the Star Trek episode also kinda promotes transphobic ideas. Depicting a race without strict genders as a bad thing is maybe not the best either.
Its a action comedy, and Carpenters used mythos from china not only steryotypes like its implyied. Exagerated and over problematizing things
But The Outcast doesn't state that conversion therapy works. The character is traumatized by these events and isn't just going to run to Riker after everything they've been through.
No, the episode explicitly states that she has gone through the conversion therapy when Riker offers to have Dr. Crusher reverse the procedure and she acknowledges it.
"Rick Berman Sucks" ~Renegate Cut
Agreed! :)
I can't speak much to what is discussed in this video (also love the movie and also too white to say what is or is not offensive), but I did want to say great video (as always) and also bring attention to the Big Trouble in Little China comics from recent years. The original run was 25 issues with some ridiculous yet interesting storylines and a follow-up 12 issue mini-series called Old Man Jack, which ended last year and might just be my favorite comic of all time. If you enjoy the movie, maybe give the comics a try too as it is mostly more of the same. There was also a crossover with Escape from New York, which also had its own comic for a while, but I suggest the Big Trouble ones first unless you just absolutely prefer the Escape from New York movie.
Big Trouble in Little China is a great film - in that it is dumb fun. For its time, it was woke. It tried, as you said. It is sad to say, and no means a defence to hand-wave away criticism, but you can't be perfect first time. You need mis-steps, stumbles and difficulties in order to improve. If we hold all past media up to the lens of popular morality of the moment, it will just about all be found wanting. I'm not sure where I'm going with this - but compare this film to casting Christian Bale as an Egyptian in Exodus: Gods and Kings and it comes out smelling of roses. Idk. Lame meandering comment doene ;-)
I'd also say the same for Apu. He was very funny and one of the most intelligent and nuanced characters on The Simpsons, but he was very much a caricature of Indian-Americans, and I can definitely see the issues with him.
Every character in The Simpsons is a caricature. That's the point of the show. It's a satire of American life.
Finally! It's always been disheartening to see so many other online critics ignore/downplay the orientalism in this film. Thank you.
You're welcome. I'm a firm believer in tackling uncomfortable stuff even in media I like. BTiLC is one of my treasured childhood faves, but that element of it is still there.
It was just a fun movie when I was a kid
This movie is great. I’m not Chinese, but I’d assume this movie isn’t accurate, but that’s also what makes it funny. Comedy isn’t funny because it’s socially correct.
Great video as always Leon. I agree 100% with you. When i was watching the movie i did feel a bit uncomfortable with the asian stereotypes. Greetings from Portugal. PS: Bring wordfunk back.
No.
Nearly every day I get upset just thinking about how much better TNG/DS9/VOT could have been if Rick Berman wasn't involved.
I love big trouble in little china, I think it's a great movie.
I like it!
I think even the Orientalism is undermined, played tongue in cheek - but it does have a notable flaw in the female Chinese heroine. It really misses the mark in making her the very essence of the meek and subservient Asian woman stereotype. Still, I also.love the film for all the flaws.
So lo pan was a human
Hollywood play the human psychology like a piano
Say what you want about
Jack Burton but he killed Lo Pan o he wins.
First off... "The Outcast" was laughably bad. "Riker falls in love with a bland, boring alien who has no personality, gender or sexual organs". Don't get me wrong: Doing a "gay episode" is exactly what I would've expected from a ST-show, but not in this forced, dumb and unimaginative fashion.
As others have pointed out: At the very least, the movie piqued your interest in Asian mythology and legends. Plus it's less of a "white saviour takes care of the natives' problems" type of deal than many other flicks. I for one never really identified with Kurt Russel's character in this one ... he was too much of a buffoon here and probably the most cartoonish character in the whole film.
And while I'm neither Chinese nor Indian, I imagine that Temple of Doom would be considered more offensive to Indians than Big Trouble would be to a Chinese person. Would be interesting to hear on this from an actual Indian or Chinese guy.
Nether
I thought this was a good try. Whatever it’s worth.
the video title really doesn't do justice to the video otherwise interesting stuff
Art can't evolve unless we critique it and we can't learn from things that we choose to ignore. This movie is a fun watch, for a middle class white woman at least, and has it's progressive elements for the time, but it has it's problems, too, the Asian love interest is one of the most blatant examples I've ever seen of a Sexy Lamp. My favorite movie of all time is 'Blade Runner' and I have no problem saying that that movie is not great when it comes to the treatment of women. Things can be both.
"Rick Berman sucks" indeed.