Heard from Elder Pingree at our Stake conference, "love makes you feel better, light makes you become better". We can't just love others, we have to shed light on things and invite them to the light.
Excellent point. Truth is the beacon (light) that gives us direction. Love is important and the truth needs to be shared with love, but love is a bit too broad to be a guiding beacon.
I had a sister in my ward visit with me this week expressing concern over the direction of some of the recent discussions in Relief Society class. She's been so bothered by certain opinions being treated as gospel truths with little pushback that she can barely bring herself to continue attending class. It's interesting you mention the spiral of silence at 20:15, because I talked about something similar with her. She often feels like her comments aren't appreciated or even welcome, because several others in class always seem to pile support on the off-base opinion (likely out of tolerance/niceness in hearing something unfamiliar). Ultimately, we talked about how we are all imperfect people and that we need to seek patience, forgiveness, and love in our approach (as Elder Holland taught). I encouraged her to keep speaking up and making doctrinal based comments to help get the class back on track when it drifts off course. I also told her to keep in mind that she's not the only one that feels uncomfortable and other sisters in class need her voice. It only takes one courageous person to make a stand to inspire others to do the same. After we talked a bit, she did mention that after class a few weeks ago she received a text from someone in the ward thanking her for her comment in class, saying it made much more sense than some of the other comments. 😊 "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..."
good for her 👍 It appears we all need to strengthen our courage and speak up for the truth. We had a situation in a GD class some weeks ago where a member and her daughter started tearing down the idea of 'Judges in Israel' and that bishops act as such judges. They kept making their comments about how bad judging is and how it makes people feel bad and some even might commit suicide if they are judged, and everyone should read 'such-and-such' book their 'counselor' had them read, etc etc. We had several other people make strong comments that put a stop to the wrong thinking that was going on.
I was jumped on by three sisters in relief society when I pointed out that back in the 60's and 70's and 80's an unwed mother would quietly go to a relative or a place for unwed mothers and have their baby. It was not treated the same as if a unwed mother was getting married. Not that people looked down and didn't offer to buy diapers or clothing for the baby. In 1990 til 2010 unwed mothers had showers and were celebrated like married mothers conveying that there was no difference. Today young women may never be married have children or even know that they are a young woman at all. How times have changed. I will still speak out and share my old fashioned opinion.
I got the same speech in a temple recommend interview. But when I testified of the Proclamation he asked me to sit down, humiliated me before the whole ward. Afterward I asked him what I had said that was wrong, he said: "nothing, they just weren't ready for the truth." So, don't you dare send these lambs to the slaughter if you are not ready to back them!
We just moved away from Northern Virginia, a very liberal area with no surprise, liberal members. My kids were so sick of “but what about the trans kids” questions in YM/YW. One huge bit of advice I have is that parents (the older generation) might be able to be both an active member of the church, have a strong testimony and be liberal, but don’t think for a second that your kids will be able to do both. They will choose the gospel of progressiveness. I’ve seen it time and time again and the parents just don’t understand how it happened which is crazy!! We can no longer be left or right - we need to be members of the gospel of Christ FIRST and ONLY! Also, my family lives overseas now in a branch of about 100 and the members are so humble and aren’t trying to be activists within the church. That is very much a privilege thing!!
Yes, I don’t know if the youth today can be liberal and have strong testimonies. That party has too many things that are conflicting with the gospel and eventually you have to abandon one or the other. We have three young women in our ward that have a older trans sibling…so we can hardly talk about anything without the girls being offended. And even more strange is some of the parents are active but supporting this transition..☹️
I just read an article by Dennis Prager where he says that you cannot be a secular conservative and expect your children to remain conservative either. The best hope is for parents who are both religious and conservative.
@@Ily779 Liberalism is not the problem any more than conservatism is the problem. The issue is radicalism, which is really no longer liberal or conservative thought.
As an old disabled woman I am so grateful to watch Sacrament meeting on zoom. There is no more energy left to participate in contraversial matters. The Savior knows the answers. I will stick with Him.
I very distinctly remember when the Proclamation on the Family first came out, and getting to that part that said, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal and eternal identity and purpose" and thinking "why in the world are they saying that?" Honestly-- it sincerely puzzled me. Everything else made sense. The legalization of Gay marriage was really being pushed, sex and pregnancy outside of marriage had become much more prevalent, half of the women in the church were working outside of the home instead of staying home with young children, infidelity was happening in greater numbers, divorce was becoming more and more prevalent even within the church, and all of this was leading to more families falling apart, so it made sense why they'd address family, marriage between man and woman, children being "entitled" to birth within marriage, the divine design of fathers providing and mothers nurturing, honoring marital vows, fulfilling family responsibilities, etc. But that one line baffled me -- "Gender is an ESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTIC of individual premortal, mortal and ETERNAL IDENTITY and purpose". I just thought it was such an ODD thing to say and bring up. It didn't seem to 'belong" - it seemed so random-- like it came from out of left field, because there didn't seems to be any problem or issue to address regarding that at the time. Now, it's SO plainly obvious WHY they said what they said. That proclamation was absolutely prophetic about what was to come!!!
Such an enlightening discussion. Thank you all. Alexander Pope "Vice is a monster of so frightful mein, as, to be hated needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace."
This was such a great discussion. I will never stop teaching about the Proclamation of the Family. We are all part of God's family and need to invite others in, whether they accept it or not.
I don’t attend Relief Society any longer. I live in Orem, utah and am surrounded by rainbow flags. It is impossible to have any deep discussions in class because too many women can become offended. So many of us “old timers” just sit in silence because someone will become offended. When I was a young woman I so appreciated the comments from the older sisters in the ward. I learned from them. But now the older women have to stay silent because they will come after us if we are not “sensitive” in our comments
Getting the same thing in Draper. You are not alone. That is exactly what Satan and his grievous wolves want. They are scared to death that believers will find each other on media like this.
Yep same deal. I'm in Provo but it's all the middle aged women who bring up LGBTQ every time. I am in my late twenties and it makes going to RS really hard.
I have worried that the Church has made a Faustian Bargain with support of the Defense of Marriage Act and support of another trans rights bill in Arizona recently. However, I think indirectly you've addressed that talking about delivering saving ordinances. I'm trying to walk in faith on this one. What a great discussion, thank you so much Greg.
So as Latter Day Saints, our Church defenses hold after all because as Carol Rice reminded, President Nelson never ceases to talk about the Temple and our covenants. I must say, and not join in with those being affected by spiraling silence, that this episode of the Cwic Show touched me special. All three of you, including Jacob Hess gave voice to crucial issues that deserve being talked about. Thank you Greg Matsen, I believe this too is the Lord's work and you will always enjoy the blessings that come with it.
@Cwic Media Thank you Greg, for what you're doing. Even with a strong testimony, I feel frightened at times. I'm an octogenarian and won't be on this earth a whole lot longer, so it's not for me that I fear, but for my grands and great grands. How will they endure this? Don't you dare ever leave the church! I fear you would take some with you. Prayers for you. Keep loving the Savior and the gospel. ❤
LOVE your channel. I wish we could have more open conversation like this in church settings. When I have engaged in similar conversations I have felt like the "Mob" has wanted to burn me at the Stake. I feel the Apostles are leaning more towards the progressive side than when I grew up in the 80's. More honest and open dialog like this from groups with different opinions needs to take place. Thank YOU!
Yes, making gods in our own image, that sums things up. Thank you, all 3, for your work. I am trying to keep discussing these issues in my circles. Also love the final focus on our temple covenants as the remedy.
Greg, thank you so much for your diligence in bringing these concerns to light. I watch daily for your podcasts. I appreciate them more than I have vocabulary to express.
I agree, you are an inspiration and a guiding light through all of this nonsense. I pray that I can be as intelligent and articulate as you are someday!
Great show! Thank you for sharing this. I realized I can do more to protect the church and still be loving and understanding with others. My wife has left the church, but I feel the spirit tell me how I can approach her with ideas you have mentioned in this show.
Greg, you made a comment (paraphrasing) that church leaders aren't directly addressing what 'the world' is pushing. I've thought the same thing but no longer do. I think that they are speaking in their own version of parables. Those in tune, who are desirous of complete conversion to the doctrine of Christ hear our leaders addressing the issues and those who are holding onto that vacation house in Babylon don't hear it, or not the same way. As an example, in April 2022 conference Pres Oaks said "Satan’s most strenuous opposition is directed at whatever is most important to that plan. Consequently, he seeks to oppose progress toward exaltation by distorting marriage, discouraging childbearing, or confusing gender." He specifically said all this nonsense is from Satan. Yet why is it that so many members of the church haven't heard what he said?? This is only one example of what I've heard the brethren say in the last few years.
I do think they are talking about it. Another example is President Nelson's Identity Hierarchy. I think the key here is "direct." I agree, they are somewhat talking in parables. But those aren't direct. In the past, the prophets and apostles have been much more direct. I'm not saying that is better, I'm just saying it is different and that without direct talk we need to take it upon us that much more to be educated and follow the Spirit on these things. I appreciate your comment.
Your comment about the YW especially being affected reminded me of something Sister Beck said years ago about Korihor. She pointed out that in Alma 30:18, it says "And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men..." We know from history and scripture that Satan targets women. Also, the first time I heard about discussion of the Proclamation of the Family being something that is discouraged at church, I told my husband about it, and he pointed out that the Proclamation is more doctrinal than even the Articles of Faith, which were essentially written for the local newspaper, but which we have put to music and teach the primary children. To not teach and promote the Proclamation of the Family at church is serious.
Thank you for this open honest calling out of all the calling out that is happening-even in the church. All the woke stuff happening is such a perfect example of the adversary s counterfeit for compassion, acceptance and charity. No one should be afraid to stand up for the truths that the Lord has confirmed to us through His gospel, through the scriptures. Just because people choose not to believe truth does not make it any less true. Now more than ever, the Lord needs us to get off the fence and stand on the solid ground of truth!💝
I don’t see why it’s not possible to fight on both fronts. I am one who pines for the Benson days when the brethren weren’t scared to say what they believe.
I'm surprised, Greg, you haven't heard the "General Authorities are for General counsel" stuff. Those like Julie Hanks have been pushing that line for a while now, in the name of their "personal authority." On a side note, any member who says "Don't bring up the Family Proclamation" is wayward to say the least. To hear such a thing from a member, especially a local leader, would be extremely disappointing. The Proclamation and the doctrine of the family is probably the biggest sifter in the Church right now.
I was instructed by the book of Malachi that we are reading this week. The people in this book of scripture were temple attending members, and when they are told that there are problems in the church they say, "everything is fine, there is nothing wrong." Of course, this was prophesied in the Book of Mormon about our day (2 Nephi 28:19-24). Most members will answer the exact same way as the people in Malachi when told that there is something wrong in the church - "all is well in Zion." We know that the challenges of the latter days will begin in the church (D&C 112:23-26). There is a reason that Malachi is quoted in ALL of the standard works. This book is written for our day and I have the sense that most of the active temple attending members of the church think that "all is well in Zion", and that is not correct. Of course, the church is pushing the idea that everything is just fine, but that is not unexpected. The parable of the ten virgins could also be a good guide to our day.
I also found interesting things jump out at me from the book of Malachi. One such verse was Malachi 2:17 where it says "...Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them...". To me that sounded like what we seem to hear a lot in our modern day church towards things that are evil (woke agenda's/religion of academia). We hear a lot of people saying these things are good in the sight of the Lord and the Lord delights in them.
When I was contemplating the reasoning behind the embracing of contradictory to the gospel theologies of man, it came to mind how the church leadership when Christ came to live in Earth the first time. As I gave it more thought I realized everything which happened in the past happens again, at the same time, at the end. Which includes church leadership becoming more like it was in Christ day. Hence the command to be prepared to receive personal revelation. Which we need within the year.
When I see churches get destroyed or burned without community outrage, then you know that the gospel is under attack. We need to be building bridges, sharing the light and sharing the value of Jesus Christ in ALL of our lives. It's not a gift without personal cost, sacrifice and service (faith, hope and charity as well).
@@jum5238 The first part of you comment is an example of the original comment you were replying to. The church is under attack every single denomination. Some countries, yes, they are burning down the buildings. Yet here in the United States and other Western nations they don't need to burn down the buildings if they can infiltrate and destroy our youth. Which is exactly what is happening. In the last days it's not fire and burning at the stake that we need to worry about. It's drag queens and doctors willing to sacrifice our youth on their altars made of stainless steel and scalpels
My Utah YSA ward hasn't had culture war issues (thankfully). But in classes, I've brought up things like teddy bear Jesus and liberation theology as part of my comments (when they're relevant). I haven't received pushback and don't know the effect my comments have, but I'm going to keep making them. Then someday, when someone says something at church that contradicts the scriptures and church doctrines, I hope I have the courage to immediately speak up and confront the falsehoods. Church members in the 1800s didn't hesitate to censure each other when necessary, and I think we should bring back that attitude. P.S. I read the Public Square mag article a few days before this episode came out. I knew the "nonbinary Jesus" idea was starting to happen, but I didn't expect it to happen already in church congregations--and in Primary of all places! It makes me so sad.
What's clear to me in the church today is that we actually NEED conflict. We need to struggle and wrestle for our conversion to Christ and His Gospel. Being agreeable and conciliatory will kill us as a church. We need to stand for truth, not for "niceness." Disagreements and even constructive arguments in church can help all of us recognize spiritual truth as well as deception. It takes love, patience and long-suffering but I think we are capable of this.
I 100% agree with this sentiment so long as it applies to both liberals and conservatives. Christianity should sound like, “my faith causes me to ask really challenging questions about myself”, not “my faith gives me all the right answers for how everyone else should live.”
You have a really interesting thought. I think we need disagreements and constructive arguments too. I was listening to a podcast where it was said that Jesus turned the table over at the temple because it was wrong what was happening. I started thinking about the actual people who were at the tables. Had they been there for a day or week or month or years? Had Jesus often seen them there because he knew them and had passed by them often? I then wondered if we could look at things that happen in the church and have our own table tipping over to say we can no longer allow things to happen that have been happening. The sexual abuse scandals and the way they are handled, the silencing of women's voices in ward matters, etc etc etc. All of these issues have caused changes for the better because someone kicked over the table. There are still more tables. An issue for one may be a nothing burger and an emotional landmine for another. These need to be discussed like you said with patience and long suffering.
I live in a small branch in a country with few members. They love the simple gospel of Christ. Satan has attacked the center of the Church. It reminds me of the Lamanites going to the heart of the Nephite nation and attacking Zarahemla.
I really love simple people that can follow the gospel when they have very little and they are so clear minded. I love seeing this in natives and latin people too. You are right that its flip flopped.
I am very surprised at what is happening. And Greg you are so wonderful to raise attention to this. I pray for your success because it takes courage to raise issues like this and its like no one is paying attention. My observations are that there is a lot of very strange things going on in the church. Like some of the absolute core textbooks for the church are disappearing. Stuff that explains what's happening in the last days, things that are irreplaceable. You can't find the old 2 inch thick church textbooks on the standard works anymore on the website. Those things were so thick because they were full of old general authority quotes. And when you look at them they explain some of the stuff going on now. Now you can't get those. And you get water down ones instead that have almost nothing. (Who did that?) And when I brought this up to others they told me other really core books are being taken off the shelves also. Some stores and sites no longer carry 'The Miracle of Forgiveness'. (I used to think they were inspired doing away with gospel principles. but now I see other textbooks of clear doctrine are being taken away also. We're being stripped bare. And the gospel principles book is absolutely inspired and exactly what you'd use to counter this stuff.) Also I'm finding people in wards are circulating false doctrines now. They attack first the idea that a man must be called of god or at least inspired to be able to teach and then teach a bunch of stuff that disagrees with the church, not only about alphabet soup but about a lot of things. They teach anyone can have a dream and they are a prophet and no longer have to listen to the prophet, but in effect they are just basically going off in a scenario of OH I can say things better and do it better than you after I perceive some small fault, so I'm justified in my pride. There's women teaching against marriage also. And women also think that its OK to change the doctrine. So there's many strange things going on including that people are easy to get stirred up and in fights with other members over trying gain something. (Lots of exclusion based on social class, wealth also.) The problems with the church also I believe are partly coming from the idea that many people have this instant gratification mentality where people think they are supposed to have everything now. And they are too much in their own little bubble and can't handle the idea of there being something to work on. They have been blessed so long with anything they want that they have a form of strong delusion. (2 Thessalions 2:3-11) The guy in the video referenced the darkness in the lord of the rings. Its actually a good point. There are scriptures that talk about that the world we're in, including areas of the church where people aren't committed are filled with gross darkness (to all people). Isaiah 60:2, D&C 38:8,11-12, D&C 84:49-54 I'm hoping people will take this not as a wake up call and invitation to get back to basics, not to make them mad. But I don't think people realize the danger we're in. Its actually dangerous to fall off your spiritual foundation. And people are very blind right now.
Watcher Palmer mentioned that a General Conference talk by Boyd K. Packer about homosexuality has been scrubbed from the Gospel Library. That's one example. I'm curious about what other things have disappeared.
The gospel library app when you use your tv like you are going to netflix but to to the gospel library app instead. MANY things in there are broken links or won't play BUT you won't notice it until you to the CHILDREN's SECTION. Included in those that won't play right are the 'stories from the book or mormon' old school picture storybook apps that are sort of old back before the church started doing the modern films. But the texts in those is perfect for children, and simple yet very foundational. The non-english ones are also broken on many resources both for adults and children. I had noticed this early on because I am a linguist and used it to keep up on listening practice. A lot of things are either broken, or missing, or hard to find. Its hopeful they will fix these things. I don't think this way to upset anyone. I don't want anyone to rebel or get upset either. But these are some of the very basic foundation items that are the most centered on the gospel. ... The institute student manuals are there but are super difficult to find and like they are hidden. I made a mistake in saying they weren't there. But that was only because I tried many times before and couldn't find them. They are here: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/institute-student-readings?lang=eng
Miracle of forgiveness, Mormon doctrine, lectures on faith, history of the church, the little factory talk, and more, all hard to find these days, not even on the web. The seminary manuals were thick and full of deep doctrine when i was young, now they are like primary lessons. A lot is being lost or censored or changed. I even heard someone say that Mormons don’t believe they can become gods when they die anymore???? No one takes about these kinds of things now.
@@jenniferdunn9785 I don't recall which talk it was, but I remember watching a talk (Benson, maybe?) and then realizing that the text online didn't match up with what the video said. I think an entire paragraph was missing. I emailed tech about it, and got a very bland answer. The lesson I've learned in this is that I need to dig deeper in order to stay informed. It's a sad thing for society and the world, but for me personally, I don't think it's a bad lesson.
I never comment. But this needs to be heard. I recently gave a lesson to my young woman about how the Lord has given you weakness in order that you will come to him to fix you. It doesn't matter if you were born that way or what the science says, what matters is you go to the Lord to help you overcome the sin or the trial. That man and the ideas of man (ie transgenderism surgery) won't ever heal the wound. Only the Lord and Savior.. I haven't had a calling for 4 months now. I have heard that it is because I won't be quiet and I cause problems. Now I am silenced. I have only 2 friends in the ward. One also fired from Young Woman same day as me (also no new calling), because she refused to agree that a job is more important that being a mother and insisted that stay at home mothers are the best work you can do as woman of God. The other hides in a calling that has minimum interaction with other members. I am alone. It has been this way for 7 years now. I live in southern California. I keep praying to move away to get away from this, but I am beginning to see this is everywhere in the church now. There is no safe place any longer. My ward has prayer groups to pray to Heavenly Mother. The young woman are taught to get a job first and that is most important motherhood is second best (99% of the woman work outside the home). I have heard that God is imperfect but is growing and you can see the growth as he is so angry in the Old testament and then mellows out in the New testament (Just think of the implications of an unperfected God. We don't have to follow all his commandments because he isn't perfect enough to see what I see. I can do as I please because I am a step further than God. Or maybe I don't have to repent in this life because there is time in the next). I have heard that we are not compassionate enough to the LGBTQ community and it is why we are losing them. We are too judgmental and we need to stand with them and SUPPORT and ACCEPT them, (a member of the Stake Presidency said). I have been in a ward in Seattle where the gay couples sit together at church and bare their testimonies (lack of a better word for their beliefs of making God in their own image). I have seen people unabashedly support abortion. People who suggest that the preisthood should be given to woman because more work would be done at the temple that way. Others who think that the LGTBQ will change just like the priesthood for the Blacks, the future revelation will be coming and the old guys in charge aren't ready to hear it just yet. I have heard people tout that their "truth" is the only truth. I have seen people who announce their sins and are glamorized and celebrated, (but with any wife beater that would never happen. What member stands up at the pulpit and unabashedly shares their sins and expected to be loved and told they don't need to change. The LGTBQ.) I have heard famous Rappers ticktock rant played over the pulpit like it is hard fast doctrine. There is more, much more. These are the most grievous. Worst of all I have been harassed and stalked on facebook for my beliefs. Shunned and rejected by woman even in the bishopric. I have been ignore and forgotten. Not only am I not invited to any of the woman groups or mothers groups, but I am unwelcome, I have been de-Friended, called a bigot, a racist, a transphobic, a homophobic and many more cruel names and judgements (stake YW's leader was one of them). I am one who spoke up. I am one who has been through the fire for saying what is right. There is a price to be paid for speaking up. Every week I am worried and terrified about what is being taught to my children in Primary and Young Womens' and Young Mens'. I am constantly trying to find out what they have been taught, asking them if they felt something was off or wrong. I am terrified to send my kids to Church, to where false doctrine is a weekly or even double duty (in sacrament and classes) occurrence. I am terrified of losing my children to those who are in position to influence my kids for the bad in a place where there should be trust and only the gospel. I just pray and hope that all my reading scriptures, family prayers, gospel discussions and come follow me will counteract all that happens at church with my children. My conclusion is that I can only do my best to teach my own children to not fall into these cultural traps. My job is not to change those around me but to uphold and teach my own children at home. I no longer have a "Ward Family" and in fact isn't that just a lie as well. We won't be in heaven in ward families, but our own families. We have to put our family first. Ignore the rest. If I feel moved by the spirit to speak against it, I will. But until then I need to keep my head down and protect my family. I am responsible for my kids alone, not the choices of other members. Make sure my home is a refuge and center of peace from the storms that now rage at Church. I will do what the Lord needs me to do for my family. My stewardship is not to change or help these people. That is for the Lord and his timing and only when I am moved by the spirit. I cannot change their minds. Only The Lord can change them. And it isn't from someone who they already chosen as a scapegoat. I can only do what I can in the stewardship the Lord has given me. And that is my own family. I will take care of them first and let the rest fall where it may. I cannot concern myself with the salvation of everyone in the church. Just the precious few the Lord has entrusted me with.
Banana moose I never comment either, but I loved your concluding statement. You are absolutely right. Focus on fortifying your home and your family. Let God handle the rest. Even though it feels like you are alone, you are not. Angels are watching over you.
Wow...MOVE! my husband and I moved from Idaho to near the Bowling Green KY area. What a difference. The members here are very down to earth and humble. No drama here as I can tell. My gosh in Idaho sisters in RS were advocates for the queer lifestyle. This has been brewing ..I feel..since about 2017....I grew up in So. Cal...MOVE!..don't go to any pioneer corridor states...you'll just be more shocked!
This is truly gutwrenching and unfortunately very believable! How quickly these ideas can infiltrate and undermine the core doctrines of Christ in His Church. I pray that you can move but I know that is not always possible. Please continue to stand firm in your convictions, they will are right!
I’m in Davis County, Utah. This sounds like it could have been a story straight from my ward… I’m at a loss for words bc of how upside-down things have become...
I feel like you are writing what I am going through. Everytime I speak up I am released from my calling. I feel that this is a chance to refocus my efforts on my children. I have this chance to teach them correct principles. It is really hard to be on the "outside" but I feel like it has been a blessing. I am able to become closer to my Savior without distractions.
From what I can tell (based on what my wife tells me), any contention in our ward is in the Relief Society, which seems to be a pattern, though it's fairly mild. Honestly, Elders Quorum is so unthinkably dull that I'd welcome a little contention and some passionate opinions. It does seem that too many Church members are misunderstanding the Church's admonition to gain personal revelation. The Church leaders have never stated or implied that we should just do our own thing and ignore their authority or counsel; that is absolutely NOT what personal revelation is about. Elder Renlund's talk last conference should have made that abundantly clear.
This was great. I’m impressed with all of the speakers today. We will be called to defend our faith and our rights to practice it, even from the same people we sit in the pews with or share a home with. Sad and scary stuff. 😢
This adds to my testimony is the church is true! I now see that our testimonies are most inextricably and also most assuredly connected to the doctrines of the church! Knowing this helps me to follow the profit even greater and in a better way than before. I see that these standards must be upheld! In order for principles to stay in place and our testimonies to not falter! Thank you guys so much for your wisdom! Tom
Great guests. She's right that by shying away from the Family Proclamation we're not sufficiently teaching doctrines vital to our families and members. Regarding the spiral of silencing of members, the good news is that courage is courageous, and shows like Cwik will help others to be reinforced and speak up as well. On the question of "why" are defenses not holding better against these ideologies, I think a key problem is that most members and leaders still do not recognize the threat. If we as a church more fully recognized the threat (and that the language and ideas aren't harmless), we would mobilize and could counter it. Right now people are not sufficiently mobilized and are too inclined to think all is well.
So my takeaway from this discussion is that people are not reading scriptures daily, and as a result collectively, people are confusing philosophies of men for philosophies of God.
I think some members are trying to live with one foot in the world and one foot in the church. They’re trying very hard, with the intent to do good and be good, but it in my opinion it is a very slippery slope. It’s complicated to be sure. I don’t have answers for others, only for myself. The adversary hasn’t given up on trying to “get” any one of us and I know he entices by wrapping his traps inside a virtue. I think we must have thicker skin amongst our peers in our defense of Christ based truth. The “real” world actually exists inside the temple. It is a true refuge that reorients each time you enter in, participate and receive. Thank you for discussing. It has disturbed me for some time, witnessing these developments, but as I focus on my relationship with God, through Christ, peace is found. Praying for our people, no one stands outside of God’s love.
Thank you! This is discussion is a great platform to address this pervasive and testimony destroying issue. I can't believe the destruction I'm seeing personally in my community even my family.
Thank you Greg, Carol, and Jacob it was so good to listen to your conversion. Amen. As you spoke these few thoughts flowed through my mind, which each of you talked about. Pres Oaks has said, questions are acceptable, opposition is not. I think it was him some twenty five or so years ago said, Roughly this, not accepting something and intolerance are not the same. As you spoke I kept wondering are we all following Pres Nelson’s invitation to spend more time in the temple?
I' listening and 2 things keep running through my head: there is another great apostasy (how many times have we been taught cleansing would begin in the church?!) and "Our FATHER , who art in heaven, hallowed be THY name...". It is sad to see that members don't recognize their own apostasy because they are still "active"! I will never be PC but I will always be BC (Biblically Correct) to the best of my ability. We need to be reminded that when Christ appeared to the Nephites there was only a remnant of them left. 😢
I love your comment! The only thing that gives me comfort in this environment are the words of THE actual Christ found in the Gospels (JST) and 3rd Nephi. I'm clinging to them like a life preserver in the middle of the north sea. I'm surprised not to see more of that coming out of the mouths of our "thought leaders."
@@geography_guy335 Always nice to see people that get it. You may be right. I'd say we're either still in the Great Apostasy, or we're in a new season of apostasy. But either way, we're in apostasy. Most won't see it because they're blinded by false precepts that say the church can't or won't apostatize. Isaiah paints a perfect picture of what's going on, but his book will remain sealed to those who won't allow themselves to consider the possibility of what he prophesies.
That would have made me stand forward and disagree strongly on many grounds. I am a speak out person. It isn't easy but it is necessary. When our Ward didn't put the flag out for the Independence Day service I stepped up and had it brought out. I am female btw. Our organist refused to play our national anthem because she is from Canada but has been in America for decades and her 2 sons were born here! It was outrageous and many of us spoke out about it. It was sung the next Sunday. I admonished the Bishop that we would have happily sung it acappella . ( to be fair he was taken by surprise at her action). We are in a fight for our faith.
@@reppi8742 I chose my battles. I kept it about the Proclamation. In the end, it was the same result. Satan and his grievous wolves will destroy you if you stand up to them ESPECIALLY if they have a mantle of priesthood authority. Don't believe me, though, believe God: Read Section 121 again
The Church is in a hard place. Many members are leaving because it's not liberal enough. Some are leaving because it's not conservative enough! It reminds me of the Conference talk about staying on the ship.
Being Christlike means personal accountability for ourselves and everyone else. Without accountability the atonement and the gospel cannot help anyone. Today's culture (crt, blm,lgbtq, etc.) does not encourage personal accountability.
If the Proclamation comes from the prophet (i.e. the First Presidency or the Church) then it IS revelation to and for the Church from prophets, seers and revelators who WE can, should and do sustain
Pres Benson's warning of condemnation for not studying the Book of Mormon has never been rescinded. Sometimes we only will get so many warnings. What else have we been warned of and are not paying attending to?
The breakdown of the family is the key to all of societies problems. The prophets have been addressing this for a very long time. The Proclamation on the Family is a holy and well timed document. It has been used at many United Nations forums by Family Watch.
Just want to say thank you for your channel and especially this video. It voiced so intelligently all my thoughts Ivy been having on this topic, and gave me some good angles to approach this with my kids. Thank you!
This IS the proper platform in which to have these conversations. Let’s go to church to renew our covenants and learn of Christ. Live your life as an example of a follower of Christ and be a peace maker. Make your home a temple. What would Christ do? Shouldn’t the Bishops individually council with those who are trying to bring these weird ideas into the Chapel like the praying to heavenly parents, etc. We have Wheat and tares literally growing next to each other on my very neighborhood street, and I know Christ would have never turn anyone away at the sermon on the mount. Those are my thoughts, thanks for all that you are doing Greg!
I love the desire shared here to have an open and loving conversation about these fundamental truths in the “public square” with our brothers and sisters! Let us also remember that the word of God is likened to a sword, the TRUTH cuts to the heart. We need to fear not, for the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, “piercing even to the dividing asunder.” When we don’t speak up, and we allow these “anti-Christ” doctrines that are mingled with scriptures into our lessons, I believe we do come under condemnation. We need to take courage!! Stand for truth and righteousness whenever and wherever we hear it! We can do this with love and compassion! We do not have to compromise God’s laws in order to love.
A few things about why our defenses aren’t holding and what to do about it: 1) One of the main reasons that our defenses aren’t holding is that these critiques of the church are couched in terms of charity. Charity is viewed as the heart of Christianity and when your positions are attacked as being uncharitable that strikes at the very core of what you claim you are as a disciple of Christ. Thus, if you are unable to reconcile these two things, you either give up on your position or you give up on Christ. 2) Another reason that our defenses aren’t holding is, in my opinion, that we have not done as good a job as we should in preaching the resurrection of Jesus. The doctrine of the resurrection means that our bodies are crucial to the plan. They are inescapably connected to salvation and eternal life. That means the binary of male and female and all of the sex differences built into our bodies are by design. It means that reproduction and families are part of the heavenly order. That means that righteousness is tied to the physicality of our bodies and that we are subject to a reality that is outside of just our minds. Carl Truman’s book does a great job discussing how we got to a place where nothing can trump what one feels inside or experiences inside one’s own mind. The resurrection of Jesus means that the outside reality of our bodies must be reckoned with, and carving them up or pumping them full of artificially made things to try to force them to our own will could never lead to happiness. 3) What do we do? Make the case for the inherent charity in the doctrines of the plan of salvation, especially those in the Proclamation on the Family. 4) What do we do about it? Preach the resurrection and all that that means.
I appreciate what Jared said about the church picking its battles. That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is when it seemingly picked a side. Why not stay silent about jabs and masks and gay marriage legislation? Those are political issues, so why didn't it stay politically neutral?
A concern I have about ‘general’ authorities… I remember when Spencer W Kimball said to lengthen your stride. The last thing members of my family needed was that message. It pushed them to limits that caused so much angst they chose to have their names removed from the church. Since then the message that you should not run faster than needed has emerged and helped many LDS women avoid depression due to feeling inadequate. Personally I had young children when the general authorities were encouraging women to stay home and not work. We were writing letters in Relief Society to discourage the passage of the Women’s Rights amendment. Shortly there after a member of the General Relief Society wrote a book (Chieko Owasaki… cannot spell her name) called Lighten Up. In her book she shared her experience as a working mother and how rewarding it was. She was not a single mom who was forced in to the workforce. I made the choice to stay home at tremendous financial cost which I spent twenty years trying to recover from. It is all so confusing to me. I came to terms by saying that they give counsel based on the needs of the whole church. As an individual, their counsel may require me to consult with Heavenly Father in earnest prayer to find out how I should proceed. My first response should always be to heed their counsel but sometimes it is not always black and white. Recently the general authorities encouraged us to get vaccinated. Since that time there has been overwhelming evidence that these vaccines are harmful, and even deadly, in many instances. One of the most profound findings is that it harms women’s reproductive cycle and limits their ability to have families. These findings come from Pfizer’s own data. My neighbor is a person who has dedicated his life to building vaccines and holds one of the patents on the original mRNA technology believes the government has been dishonest in their promotion of these vaccines. Why would the general authorities promote something that produce so much harm? I personally have chosen not to be vaccinated, despite their counsel. It gets more and more difficult to take counsel from the general authorities when they wade in to political issues and over time are proven to be wrong. It used to be that they were ahead of their time And over time were proven to be right. It gets harder and harder to discern right from wrong.
My cousin told me I was not following the Prophet because I was not getting vaccinated immediately. That was one reason I chose not to get the vaccine.
@@williampaul7932 I do not understand why the church does not just stay out of politics. What benefit is there to wading in to controversial topics and choosing a side on issues.
@@cherstinaneI think they got involved at one point because of policy. In government, our politicians affect policy, and policy affects people. Eventually it will affect the church to the point where it will have to go underground most likely. I don’t like warring with my neighbor or fellow church members, but the time is coming where if truth and doctrine are not clearly spoken and defended in church, then there won’t be a church left and a gospel left to defend.
I struggle knowing when to say anything and what to say. I was praying a few weeks ago for a answer to this when I listened to the Christmas devotional. I felt like Elder Oaks answered some of my questions in his address at the Christmas devotional. Because I don’t understand where love one another as Jesus loves you and live and let live, you do you, and don’t judge others just love them line up with the doctrine. Is it my job to correct people? I just don’t know when and what to say. Mostly in my ward there is a guy who always wants to beat the Covid drum and condemn people in the church for not taking Covid seriously when the prophet said……… I wish he wouldn’t do that. It’s divisive and I wish he wouldn’t talk about it in sacrament, and Sunday school. I wish I understood all of this better. Sometimes things are said that feel off.
When to say something: when a point contrary to the truth is being promoted. What to say: doctrine, truth. I've found speaking of doctrines and truths generally keeps the conversation from becoming personal. Some may take it personally, but that is not your responsibility if you speak kindly and objectivly about doctrine. The question of love is in the realm of correcting the individual. Just avoid that and simply stand for truth. And remember, if you are thinking it, many others are as well, and will be glad some Vanguard spoke up for them to follow.
Try to not be combative, nor in pride. But be firm and unmovable. But we have to say something now. If we don't we will have NOTHING left. They won't be content to just have 1 change. It will be 1 thing after another, after another in a never ending cycle. This is basically what happened to the 1st century church after the apostles were taken out. So if we do nothing, the result will be total loss.
Maybe talk to the EQP or your bishop first. Getting a "talking to" from one of the might be enough to get the guy to settle down. If that doesn't work, then absolutely speak up (in a way that doesn't explicitly rebuke him): "I feel that we really need to focus on the core aspects of the restored gospel and leave the fringe topics for discussions outside of the two-hour church block." I know that getting "involved" in these things is nerve-racking, but if our only intention is to defend the Church/Lord/Brethren or to maintain the Spirit at church, then we can know we're doing the right thing.
55:25 The Prophet and Apostles ARE saying things, just maybe not as overtly and obvious as some members would like. The most obvious one to me is when President Nelson pleaded with us to make more time for the Lord (prayer/scripture study) If we are doing that sincerely, how can we go wrong? Some don’t want small and simple, they want grand and flashy. We also need to read between the lines of what the GAs are saying. Like Elder Bednar keeps saying, we need eyes to see and ears to hear and be taught by the Spirit.
As an addendum to my previous comment, until recently when I've been able to catch a ride with friends, it took 1.5 - 2 hours each way on public transportation to go to church meetings every week. How many in Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, California, or southern Alberta would go to church each week if it took that much time and effort? This itself would sift those who really have faith from the naysayers.
We must stick to what we know is true. We cannot debate the family and what constitutes a family. Each of those that choose to go against the traditional family, came from a traditional family in most circumstances. However people needs to realise that children are not formed from same sex marriage. So how do we as members do as the Lord told us, to go forward be fruitful and replenish the earth!
So true! Lesson on Family Proclamation in Priesthood meeting became contentious... one sided against the teacher. Some men walked out before someone finally stood up and said firmly "STOP "... this is wrong and the spirit has gone. It turned things around and the lesson went on much better.
The comment about General Authorities giving general counsel is a little misunderstood. I think I first heard it from Michael Rush and I mostly agree with what he was saying. Pres. Nelson has been pleading with the members to seek the Spirit and revelation in their lives. That is specific counsel directly from the Lord. Each of us should be seeking direct revelation from the Lord for us. General Authorities can give both general and specific counsel but it will rarely ever been as individually tailored to your needs as coming directly from the Lord. I like Moses sentiment where he said he wished all of the Israelites were prophets and were receiving revelation (for themselves and their families, not for the whole congregation). We should be seeking the Lord first and the Prophet and Apostles help in that endeavor but should not supersede it. The principles laid out in Elder Renlund's talk are important and timely.
I think they are referring to "general counsel" in the way somebody like Julie Hanks uses it, which is basically to pick and choose when you'll follow counsel from the Brethren. As President Oaks said, the personal line of revelation cannot be in conflict with the priesthood line.
I love this discussion so much; it does feel like our Church has been infiltrated with all of these various harmful ideologies. It is a spiritual war and that is a great point brought up is that we need to be Christlike and defend righteousness, even if others don't think it is being "kind." Going to Church has been a challenge lately because of these ideologies, but they are also at the school and workplaces. I guess I thought we would be able to better see through these deceptions and it is disheartening. I think personal revelation is very important as well as for the Church as a whole but some members are thinking they have personal authority and even authority over the Church and Christ's doctrine. It is all the separating of the wheat and the tares and its a struggle to recognize the Church we have known.
President, Benson, wrote a book I believe in 1962 talking about this. Comparing marxist ideology and tactics to what went on in the book of Mormon and is pretty dead on to what we’re experiencing today. We don’t remember the recent history of the church either very well. My understanding is the Marxist ideology, had to be pushed out of church in the 30s 40s and 50s.
The Lord instructed Lehi to have his sons return to Jerusalem to obtain the brass plates, lest his posterity should dwindle in unbelief and when I see young or old go off the path it appears to me that they are not founded sufficiently in God's word and thus become victims of every wind of doctrine. And as we all know the "winds" are blowing fiercely all around us here in the bottom of the ninth inning.
When I was attending Priesthood Leadership Training with Elder Oakes in the late '80s and as you may remember the push to counsel women not to work outside the home. During the Q&A at the end, the question was posed about the counsel because members couldn't create a standard of living without two incomes, basically asking permission for doing that. Elder Oakes responded, "I can't answered that. It's a specific example and I'm only a general authority. I feel the quote given took comments like my example and turned it on its head. 've
@24:00 forgive me, but every time the leaders of the Church cave or appear to cave to social pressure to change Church doctrine, policy, or practice, they further embolden that "activist class". When they got rid of the Priesthood and Women's sessions of conference in favor of a single adult session, the activist enemies of the Church cheered because it was a signal to them that the Church was changing its policies and practices toward androgeny. When they Changed the covenants in the temple in 2019 and gave Eve more lines, the activists believed that their social pressure caused that change. When Elder Ballard and Elder Soares say that there is no president of the family, and other things that seem to contradict the proclamation on the family's statement that "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families...", the activists cheer and start focusing on calling for "adjusting" or even "replacing" the proclamation. So what are regular members supposed to do when our prophets give weapons to our enemies?
I think we've been conditioned for decades to not speak about certain things, and it's getting worse as time goes on. I don't remember the last time I heard a good discussion about the Word of Wisdom, for example. Whenever we get to Section 89 in the Doctrine and Covenants, they used to skirt around the things we shouldn't do, and ignore the things we should do. Last time they didn't even take about the things we shouldn't do that are found in the Word of Wisdom. That's just one example.
Seeing General Authorities as being limited to providing overarching general guidance while turning to personal revelation on how that guidance should be enacted in our lives makes so much sense to me. It is very much in keeping with E. Christofferson's comments that personal revelation supersedes the revealed word of God illustrated by Nephi's personal revelation to kill Laban. Thank you for sharing that message!
Stand up for the Family Proclamation, I do it, no Bishop or Stake President had better not tell you otherwise, if they do, they need to be released....
Agreed. But it isn't happening. We all know of bishops who don't really believe the Proclamation. They are under tremendous pressure to keep tithing coming in.
My leaders are far more comfortable bullying me than reasoning with me point for point. My stake president has gone so far as to delegate the church's firm of lawyers to mail me a threatening and illegal letter, criminally and civilly, alleging my being some undefined risk and threatening various consequences for attending church anywhere. The allegation of the bretheren" being oppressors is supported by D&C 121:39, which claims ". . . almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority . . . exercise unrighteous dominion."
Yes! Nice is passive and weak. It is as ineffective and wrong as is "mean." Bold, however is strong and firm and definitely not passive. Love is bold. Charity is bold. President Monson's definition of charity is very helpful, especially the line explaining charity is "resisting the impulse to be offended."
I lived in Sis. Andersen's Ward in downtown SLC not long after she was excommunicated back in 92-96. She used to wear a ribbon at conference time that she said represented Priesthood Oppression. She had a megaphone as an Author to promote church activism when she was excommunicated with those 6 or 7. She was a nice person but she was a church activist back then when she was one of the only ones outwardly promoting activism. Her excommunication clearly showed she was doing so outside of church approval and she was essentially teaching her own brand of church. Now,.there are ususally a few of those in each ward, sometimes, even a Bishop who interject their philosophies in class or talks and don't face excommunication or they are doing it online and don't face excommunication. Rarely, do they face excommunication. I think the line of delineation has become something you can't even talk about since being over the line is such a gray area now. Not finding the Miracle of Forgiveness at Deseret and finding Rough Stone Rolling is a good example.
Thank you. In my ward (and stake) I am continually frustrated that the programs and purpose of the Church as it pertains to 'perfecting the saints' and in some degrees 'proclaiming the gospel' (Kimball 1981). I have lived through many Church evolutions and served in multiple leadership callings for most of the past 40 years, but the current attitudes that seem to be prevalent since we exited the pandemic really concerns me. In some cases these have been excused under the umbrella of 'personal revelation' or being 'home focused', but there seems to be an overwhelming effort to support and promote what seem to be 'Woke' agendas. I have family members that span the gambit on current subjects (LGBTQ+, genderless identity, etc.) so I feel aware of these arguments in the Church context, but listening to sacrament meeting talks and SS\PH\RS lessons that suggest the Lord is behind some of these social changes bothers me. Most can quote some GA conference talk to back up their position, but IMO fail to reconcile these singular references with others in the broader picture. At first I was outspoken (and still am when given the opportunity) but I was told very explicitly that I was offending leaders and members when I suggested things like leaders needed to attend Church )we have at least one president in our ward who is has yet to come to Church after the pandemic restrictions were lifted) , or organization efforts needed to provide something more than a place to gather and chit-chat (i.e. plan activities and lessons with a purpose). I've been told by Ward/Church leaders that 'the Lord wouldn't have called me if he didn't want me to do it this way', ''we can't do that because it will offend XXX' or 'everyone is to overwhelmed to hear that'. My concern is that as I watch, those that are 'leaving' are not just those who feel they have been 'enlightened' but many stalwarts who no longer find the Church able to meet their personal needs. In a couple of cases, these members have decided to go to other wards in a neighboring stake, but many just come for the sacrament and then exit to avoid these cultural conflicts. Five years ago, I would have been all over them to encourage them to join with us, but lately I have begun to see (and feel) the frustration they are feeling that is driving them to find lesser ways to be true to their covenants (i.e. partake of the sacrament) but not part of the rest.
Yes, the people leaving also include those that hold tight to their convictions and don't recognize the Church anymore. They are the ones being turned away because of fighting for truth and righteousness. Something is definitely off!!
I loved a lot of what Jacob stated in this video. At 56:20 this was something that I struggled with a couple years ago but his statement here clears it up so much. 37:50 is such an important statement about the lie that is being propagated throughout much of the west. Somehow, even members of the church, seem to believe that the gospel cannot be a good fit for people who struggle with LGBT identities. Either the Gospel is proclaimed to all the world through the Son of God for the betterment of every man or woman, or it is not. It cannot be a mixed bag. Thanks for your work Greg. I really appreciate these videos.
I've heard President Oaks himself say that the reason that they're called "General Authorities" is exactly for that reason--to not have to comment on things too specifically. He joked when he said it, and everyone laughed, but I suspect General Authorities use that when they need to. So it's interesting to hear your (Greg's) comment about that in the context of what's being discussed in this video (around 12:30 - 13:15). Thanks for all your work.
Thanks for Carrol and Jacob on the podcast for the best way to deal with the change in society, and the humble approach we need to have with all of these issues that we have to deal with people now and in the future. Satin is the father of all lies, and we are experiencing how he is trying to pull at our heart strings to say to us, we are compassionate people, but satin is not following the covenant path, instead, he want to lead us into the mist of darkness to blind us with our own pride. I'm not a bad person, but are you following the covenant path? The answer will be no. Turn around and hold onto the rod as your guest have mentioned. Your right, there will be a time where we will draw a line in the sand, but this is not the time. This is just starting the worst is yet to come, so, we are going to have to be able to express ourselves and stand up and say something, because if we don't the world will change at a more rapid pace. President Nelson did give a talk on "receiving personal inspiration". I need to listen to it. Thanks for the podcast.
2 Thessalions 2:3-11 Strong delusions while people are blind, and in gross darkness. They are falling away. We are seeing a great falling away in our time. People love sin and wealth more than god and more than helping people in need. And extreme pride.
You are so right. We all need to repent but we should stand up for the standards of the gospel. We may stand alone and in fact I believe we will. We should follow the Prophet even if it is difficult.
Anyone who wants to take upon own shoulders... to steady the way Of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is led, have a weight on their lives that will bring them to their knees in repentance
Under condemnation for treating the BofM lightly - I was Baptized in 1986 & confined by Ezra Taft Benson great-grandson - so Ezra Taft was The Prophet to me - it works!
We are at a point similar to Mormon's day: "Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them" (Moroni 9:4) I'll add this, in 2008, I started growing facial hair, and some members started being offended, some even angry at me. Some said I was a bad return missionary for it, etc, and over the years since then, some have left the church, some have had children come out of the closet, etc. So the way I feel about it is that we should have been less concerned about facial hair and more discerning about things that were beginning to erupt that actually affected the salvation of people.
We had a lot of conflict in my ward, especially due to covid. We had one sister that said she was going to bully anyone that didn't get the jab, then made good on her promise 😢
A very relevant quote: "Sadly, much of modern Christianity does not acknowledge that God makes any real demands on those who believe in Him, seeing Him rather as a butler “who meets their needs when summoned” or a therapist whose role is to help people “feel good about themselves.” It is a religious outlook that “makes no pretense at changing lives.” “By contrast,” as one author declares, “the God portrayed in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures asks, not just for commitment, but for our very lives. The God of the Bible traffics in life and death, not niceness, and calls for sacrificial love, not benign whatever-ism.” - “As Many as I Love, I Rebuke and Chasten” By Elder D. Todd Christofferson
I live in Orem and struggle to go to RS as well. Our Bishop has had to get up twice after Gospel Doctrine and speak because of the contention and false doctrine. It doesn't get called out in RS. We've been told not to teach truth of it offends. I don't recognize the church or my country anymore.
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I will wave the family proclamation like Captain Moroni waved the title of liberty. We all should.
Wave away!
The war metaphors of the Book of Alma are absolutely solid. The Book of Mormon is still true.
I love this document! It keeps me grounded amidst this chaos
Excellent, I am with you!
Likewise!
Heard from Elder Pingree at our Stake conference, "love makes you feel better, light makes you become better". We can't just love others, we have to shed light on things and invite them to the light.
Excellent point. Truth is the beacon (light) that gives us direction. Love is important and the truth needs to be shared with love, but love is a bit too broad to be a guiding beacon.
A corollary to that is that there is no right way to do the wrong thing.
If we don't "shed light on things" we are not loving others.
AMEN!!
I had a sister in my ward visit with me this week expressing concern over the direction of some of the recent discussions in Relief Society class. She's been so bothered by certain opinions being treated as gospel truths with little pushback that she can barely bring herself to continue attending class. It's interesting you mention the spiral of silence at 20:15, because I talked about something similar with her. She often feels like her comments aren't appreciated or even welcome, because several others in class always seem to pile support on the off-base opinion (likely out of tolerance/niceness in hearing something unfamiliar).
Ultimately, we talked about how we are all imperfect people and that we need to seek patience, forgiveness, and love in our approach (as Elder Holland taught). I encouraged her to keep speaking up and making doctrinal based comments to help get the class back on track when it drifts off course. I also told her to keep in mind that she's not the only one that feels uncomfortable and other sisters in class need her voice. It only takes one courageous person to make a stand to inspire others to do the same. After we talked a bit, she did mention that after class a few weeks ago she received a text from someone in the ward thanking her for her comment in class, saying it made much more sense than some of the other comments. 😊
"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..."
good for her 👍 It appears we all need to strengthen our courage and speak up for the truth. We had a situation in a GD class some weeks ago where a member and her daughter started tearing down the idea of 'Judges in Israel' and that bishops act as such judges. They kept making their comments about how bad judging is and how it makes people feel bad and some even might commit suicide if they are judged, and everyone should read 'such-and-such' book their 'counselor' had them read, etc etc. We had several other people make strong comments that put a stop to the wrong thinking that was going on.
My favorite scripture (Romans 1:16).
I was jumped on by three sisters in relief society when I pointed out that back in the 60's and 70's and 80's an unwed mother would quietly go to a relative or a place for unwed mothers and have their baby. It was not treated the same as if a unwed mother was getting married. Not that people looked down and didn't offer to buy diapers or clothing for the baby.
In 1990 til 2010 unwed mothers had showers and were celebrated like married mothers conveying that there was no difference. Today young women may never be married have children or even know that they are a young woman at all. How times have changed.
I will still speak out and share my old fashioned opinion.
I got the same speech in a temple recommend interview. But when I testified of the Proclamation he asked me to sit down, humiliated me before the whole ward. Afterward I asked him what I had said that was wrong, he said: "nothing, they just weren't ready for the truth." So, don't you dare send these lambs to the slaughter if you are not ready to back them!
@@rolandsmith4394 Just hold to the Rod. We are in the last days. It's bound to get worse!! Keep to your convictions which are true!
We just moved away from Northern Virginia, a very liberal area with no surprise, liberal members. My kids were so sick of “but what about the trans kids” questions in YM/YW. One huge bit of advice I have is that parents (the older generation) might be able to be both an active member of the church, have a strong testimony and be liberal, but don’t think for a second that your kids will be able to do both. They will choose the gospel of progressiveness. I’ve seen it time and time again and the parents just don’t understand how it happened which is crazy!! We can no longer be left or right - we need to be members of the gospel of Christ FIRST and ONLY!
Also, my family lives overseas now in a branch of about 100 and the members are so humble and aren’t trying to be activists within the church. That is very much a privilege thing!!
Yes, I don’t know if the youth today can be liberal and have strong testimonies. That party has too many things that are conflicting with the gospel and eventually you have to abandon one or the other. We have three young women in our ward that have a older trans sibling…so we can hardly talk about anything without the girls being offended. And even more strange is some of the parents are active but supporting this transition..☹️
I’ve seen many choose progressivism over the gospel. Good luck doing both.
I just read an article by Dennis Prager where he says that you cannot be a secular conservative and expect your children to remain conservative either. The best hope is for parents who are both religious and conservative.
I grew up in northern Virginia and I'm sad to read how things are developing there. :(
@@Ily779 Liberalism is not the problem any more than conservatism is the problem. The issue is radicalism, which is really no longer liberal or conservative thought.
Many thanks, Brothers & Sister. Sending love & gladness for your sharing real truth
As an old disabled woman I am so grateful to watch Sacrament meeting on zoom. There is no more energy left to participate in contraversial matters. The Savior knows the answers. I will stick with Him.
Help me understand why that is better.
My family has reread all the Gospels ald 3nephi. You are right. The Master predicted all this. All of it. I'm so grateful for His guidance.
I very distinctly remember when the Proclamation on the Family first came out, and getting to that part that said, "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal and eternal identity and purpose" and thinking "why in the world are they saying that?" Honestly-- it sincerely puzzled me. Everything else made sense. The legalization of Gay marriage was really being pushed, sex and pregnancy outside of marriage had become much more prevalent, half of the women in the church were working outside of the home instead of staying home with young children, infidelity was happening in greater numbers, divorce was becoming more and more prevalent even within the church, and all of this was leading to more families falling apart, so it made sense why they'd address family, marriage between man and woman, children being "entitled" to birth within marriage, the divine design of fathers providing and mothers nurturing, honoring marital vows, fulfilling family responsibilities, etc. But that one line baffled me -- "Gender is an ESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTIC of individual premortal, mortal and ETERNAL IDENTITY and purpose". I just thought it was such an ODD thing to say and bring up. It didn't seem to 'belong" - it seemed so random-- like it came from out of left field, because there didn't seems to be any problem or issue to address regarding that at the time. Now, it's SO plainly obvious WHY they said what they said. That proclamation was absolutely prophetic about what was to come!!!
Such an enlightening discussion. Thank you all.
Alexander Pope "Vice is a monster of so frightful mein, as, to be hated needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace."
Such a great quote!
Elder Maxwell quoted this in a talk. Absolute truth.
This was such a great discussion. I will never stop teaching about the Proclamation of the Family. We are all part of God's family and need to invite others in, whether they accept it or not.
Wonderful!!!
I don’t attend Relief Society any longer. I live in Orem, utah and am surrounded by rainbow flags. It is impossible to have any deep discussions in class because too many women can become offended. So many of us “old timers” just sit in silence because someone will become offended. When I was a young woman I so appreciated the comments from the older sisters in the ward. I learned from them. But now the older women have to stay silent because they will come after us if we are not “sensitive” in our comments
Getting the same thing in Draper. You are not alone. That is exactly what Satan and his grievous wolves want. They are scared to death that believers will find each other on media like this.
You’re still a member of my Relief Society, Sister L Jimz. Sending love from Missouri. 💖🙏🏽🕊️
You’re needed to speak up in class. Help straighten thing out.
Same thing in my ward. It’s heartbreaking.
Yep same deal. I'm in Provo but it's all the middle aged women who bring up LGBTQ every time. I am in my late twenties and it makes going to RS really hard.
I have worried that the Church has made a Faustian Bargain with support of the Defense of Marriage Act and support of another trans rights bill in Arizona recently. However, I think indirectly you've addressed that talking about delivering saving ordinances. I'm trying to walk in faith on this one. What a great discussion, thank you so much Greg.
I really disagree with the church’s support of this law, however I’m trying to look the other way. Getting harder to do. Very much a test of faith!
So as Latter Day Saints, our Church defenses hold after all because as Carol Rice reminded, President Nelson never ceases to talk about the Temple and our covenants. I must say, and not join in with those being affected by spiraling silence, that this episode of the Cwic Show touched me special. All three of you, including Jacob Hess gave voice to crucial issues that deserve being talked about. Thank you Greg Matsen, I believe this too is the Lord's work and you will always enjoy the blessings that come with it.
Thank you!
@Cwic Media
Thank you Greg, for what you're doing. Even with a strong testimony, I feel frightened at times. I'm an octogenarian and won't be on this earth a whole lot longer, so it's not for me that I fear, but for my grands and great grands. How will they endure this? Don't you dare ever leave the church! I fear you would take some with you. Prayers for you. Keep loving the Savior and the gospel. ❤
LOVE your channel. I wish we could have more open conversation like this in church settings. When I have engaged in similar conversations I have felt like the "Mob" has wanted to burn me at the Stake. I feel the Apostles are leaning more towards the progressive side than when I grew up in the 80's. More honest and open dialog like this from groups with different opinions needs to take place. Thank YOU!
Yes, making gods in our own image, that sums things up.
Thank you, all 3, for your work. I am trying to keep discussing these issues in my circles.
Also love the final focus on our temple covenants as the remedy.
Greg, thank you so much for your diligence in bringing these concerns to light. I watch daily for your podcasts. I appreciate them more than I have vocabulary to express.
That's very kind. I appreciate it!
I agree, you are an inspiration and a guiding light through all of this nonsense. I pray that I can be as intelligent and articulate as you are someday!
I love this: "We can't ignore the order of Heaven, and that's what the family is." In other words, ignore the order of Heaven at your peril.
Great show! Thank you for sharing this. I realized I can do more to protect the church and still be loving and understanding with others. My wife has left the church, but I feel the spirit tell me how I can approach her with ideas you have mentioned in this show.
Greg, you made a comment (paraphrasing) that church leaders aren't directly addressing what 'the world' is pushing. I've thought the same thing but no longer do. I think that they are speaking in their own version of parables. Those in tune, who are desirous of complete conversion to the doctrine of Christ hear our leaders addressing the issues and those who are holding onto that vacation house in Babylon don't hear it, or not the same way. As an example, in April 2022 conference Pres Oaks said "Satan’s most strenuous opposition is directed at whatever is most important to that plan. Consequently, he seeks to oppose progress toward exaltation by distorting marriage, discouraging childbearing, or confusing gender." He specifically said all this nonsense is from Satan. Yet why is it that so many members of the church haven't heard what he said?? This is only one example of what I've heard the brethren say in the last few years.
I do think they are talking about it. Another example is President Nelson's Identity Hierarchy. I think the key here is "direct." I agree, they are somewhat talking in parables. But those aren't direct. In the past, the prophets and apostles have been much more direct. I'm not saying that is better, I'm just saying it is different and that without direct talk we need to take it upon us that much more to be educated and follow the Spirit on these things. I appreciate your comment.
Much needed discussion. All three well spoke.
Your comment about the YW especially being affected reminded me of something Sister Beck said years ago about Korihor. She pointed out that in Alma 30:18, it says "And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men..." We know from history and scripture that Satan targets women.
Also, the first time I heard about discussion of the Proclamation of the Family being something that is discouraged at church, I told my husband about it, and he pointed out that the Proclamation is more doctrinal than even the Articles of Faith, which were essentially written for the local newspaper, but which we have put to music and teach the primary children. To not teach and promote the Proclamation of the Family at church is serious.
Thank you for this open honest calling out of all the calling out that is happening-even in the church. All the woke stuff happening is such a perfect example of the adversary s counterfeit for compassion, acceptance and charity. No one should be afraid to stand up for the truths that the Lord has confirmed to us through His gospel, through the scriptures. Just because people choose not to believe truth does not make it any less true. Now more than ever, the Lord needs us to get off the fence and stand on the solid ground of truth!💝
I don’t see why it’s not possible to fight on both fronts. I am one who pines for the Benson days when the brethren weren’t scared to say what they believe.
I'm surprised, Greg, you haven't heard the "General Authorities are for General counsel" stuff. Those like Julie Hanks have been pushing that line for a while now, in the name of their "personal authority."
On a side note, any member who says "Don't bring up the Family Proclamation" is wayward to say the least. To hear such a thing from a member, especially a local leader, would be extremely disappointing. The Proclamation and the doctrine of the family is probably the biggest sifter in the Church right now.
Thank you to Greg, Carol, and Jacob. This was a fantastic discussion.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I was instructed by the book of Malachi that we are reading this week. The people in this book of scripture were temple attending members, and when they are told that there are problems in the church they say, "everything is fine, there is nothing wrong." Of course, this was prophesied in the Book of Mormon about our day (2 Nephi 28:19-24). Most members will answer the exact same way as the people in Malachi when told that there is something wrong in the church - "all is well in Zion." We know that the challenges of the latter days will begin in the church (D&C 112:23-26). There is a reason that Malachi is quoted in ALL of the standard works. This book is written for our day and I have the sense that most of the active temple attending members of the church think that "all is well in Zion", and that is not correct. Of course, the church is pushing the idea that everything is just fine, but that is not unexpected. The parable of the ten virgins could also be a good guide to our day.
I also found interesting things jump out at me from the book of Malachi. One such verse was Malachi 2:17 where it says "...Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them...". To me that sounded like what we seem to hear a lot in our modern day church towards things that are evil (woke agenda's/religion of academia). We hear a lot of people saying these things are good in the sight of the Lord and the Lord delights in them.
@@ej1597 Amen!
When I was contemplating the reasoning behind the embracing of contradictory to the gospel theologies of man, it came to mind how the church leadership when Christ came to live in Earth the first time. As I gave it more thought I realized everything which happened in the past happens again, at the same time, at the end. Which includes church leadership becoming more like it was in Christ day. Hence the command to be prepared to receive personal revelation. Which we need within the year.
When I see churches get destroyed or burned without community outrage, then you know that the gospel is under attack. We need to be building bridges, sharing the light and sharing the value of Jesus Christ in ALL of our lives. It's not a gift without personal cost, sacrifice and service (faith, hope and charity as well).
@@jum5238 The first part of you comment is an example of the original comment you were replying to. The church is under attack every single denomination. Some countries, yes, they are burning down the buildings. Yet here in the United States and other Western nations they don't need to burn down the buildings if they can infiltrate and destroy our youth. Which is exactly what is happening. In the last days it's not fire and burning at the stake that we need to worry about. It's drag queens and doctors willing to sacrifice our youth on their altars made of stainless steel and scalpels
My Utah YSA ward hasn't had culture war issues (thankfully). But in classes, I've brought up things like teddy bear Jesus and liberation theology as part of my comments (when they're relevant). I haven't received pushback and don't know the effect my comments have, but I'm going to keep making them. Then someday, when someone says something at church that contradicts the scriptures and church doctrines, I hope I have the courage to immediately speak up and confront the falsehoods. Church members in the 1800s didn't hesitate to censure each other when necessary, and I think we should bring back that attitude.
P.S. I read the Public Square mag article a few days before this episode came out. I knew the "nonbinary Jesus" idea was starting to happen, but I didn't expect it to happen already in church congregations--and in Primary of all places! It makes me so sad.
What's clear to me in the church today is that we actually NEED conflict. We need to struggle and wrestle for our conversion to Christ and His Gospel. Being agreeable and conciliatory will kill us as a church. We need to stand for truth, not for "niceness." Disagreements and even constructive arguments in church can help all of us recognize spiritual truth as well as deception. It takes love, patience and long-suffering but I think we are capable of this.
I 100% agree with this sentiment so long as it applies to both liberals and conservatives. Christianity should sound like, “my faith causes me to ask really challenging questions about myself”, not “my faith gives me all the right answers for how everyone else should live.”
@@tsmithson1 I think political arguments are best left outside church
You have a really interesting thought. I think we need disagreements and constructive arguments too. I was listening to a podcast where it was said that Jesus turned the table over at the temple because it was wrong what was happening. I started thinking about the actual people who were at the tables. Had they been there for a day or week or month or years? Had Jesus often seen them there because he knew them and had passed by them often? I then wondered if we could look at things that happen in the church and have our own table tipping over to say we can no longer allow things to happen that have been happening. The sexual abuse scandals and the way they are handled, the silencing of women's voices in ward matters, etc etc etc. All of these issues have caused changes for the better because someone kicked over the table. There are still more tables. An issue for one may be a nothing burger and an emotional landmine for another. These need to be discussed like you said with patience and long suffering.
I live in a small branch in a country with few members. They love the simple gospel of Christ. Satan has attacked the center of the Church. It reminds me of the Lamanites going to the heart of the Nephite nation and attacking Zarahemla.
Amen. Amen.
Apt analogy.
I really love simple people that can follow the gospel when they have very little and they are so clear minded. I love seeing this in natives and latin people too. You are right that its flip flopped.
I am very surprised at what is happening. And Greg you are so wonderful to raise attention to this. I pray for your success because it takes courage to raise issues like this and its like no one is paying attention.
My observations are that there is a lot of very strange things going on in the church. Like some of the absolute core textbooks for the church are disappearing. Stuff that explains what's happening in the last days, things that are irreplaceable. You can't find the old 2 inch thick church textbooks on the standard works anymore on the website. Those things were so thick because they were full of old general authority quotes. And when you look at them they explain some of the stuff going on now. Now you can't get those. And you get water down ones instead that have almost nothing. (Who did that?) And when I brought this up to others they told me other really core books are being taken off the shelves also. Some stores and sites no longer carry 'The Miracle of Forgiveness'. (I used to think they were inspired doing away with gospel principles. but now I see other textbooks of clear doctrine are being taken away also. We're being stripped bare. And the gospel principles book is absolutely inspired and exactly what you'd use to counter this stuff.)
Also I'm finding people in wards are circulating false doctrines now. They attack first the idea that a man must be called of god or at least inspired to be able to teach and then teach a bunch of stuff that disagrees with the church, not only about alphabet soup but about a lot of things. They teach anyone can have a dream and they are a prophet and no longer have to listen to the prophet, but in effect they are just basically going off in a scenario of OH I can say things better and do it better than you after I perceive some small fault, so I'm justified in my pride. There's women teaching against marriage also. And women also think that its OK to change the doctrine. So there's many strange things going on including that people are easy to get stirred up and in fights with other members over trying gain something. (Lots of exclusion based on social class, wealth also.)
The problems with the church also I believe are partly coming from the idea that many people have this instant gratification mentality where people think they are supposed to have everything now. And they are too much in their own little bubble and can't handle the idea of there being something to work on. They have been blessed so long with anything they want that they have a form of strong delusion. (2 Thessalions 2:3-11)
The guy in the video referenced the darkness in the lord of the rings. Its actually a good point. There are scriptures that talk about that the world we're in, including areas of the church where people aren't committed are filled with gross darkness (to all people). Isaiah 60:2, D&C 38:8,11-12, D&C 84:49-54
I'm hoping people will take this not as a wake up call and invitation to get back to basics, not to make them mad. But I don't think people realize the danger we're in. Its actually dangerous to fall off your spiritual foundation. And people are very blind right now.
Watcher Palmer mentioned that a General Conference talk by Boyd K. Packer about homosexuality has been scrubbed from the Gospel Library. That's one example. I'm curious about what other things have disappeared.
The gospel library app when you use your tv like you are going to netflix but to to the gospel library app instead. MANY things in there are broken links or won't play BUT you won't notice it until you to the CHILDREN's SECTION. Included in those that won't play right are the 'stories from the book or mormon' old school picture storybook apps that are sort of old back before the church started doing the modern films. But the texts in those is perfect for children, and simple yet very foundational. The non-english ones are also broken on many resources both for adults and children. I had noticed this early on because I am a linguist and used it to keep up on listening practice.
A lot of things are either broken, or missing, or hard to find.
Its hopeful they will fix these things. I don't think this way to upset anyone. I don't want anyone to rebel or get upset either. But these are some of the very basic foundation items that are the most centered on the gospel.
...
The institute student manuals are there but are super difficult to find and like they are hidden. I made a mistake in saying they weren't there. But that was only because I tried many times before and couldn't find them. They are here:
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/institute-student-readings?lang=eng
Miracle of forgiveness, Mormon doctrine, lectures on faith, history of the church, the little factory talk, and more, all hard to find these days, not even on the web. The seminary manuals were thick and full of deep doctrine when i was young, now they are like primary lessons. A lot is being lost or censored or changed. I even heard someone say that Mormons don’t believe they can become gods when they die anymore???? No one takes about these kinds of things now.
@@jenniferdunn9785 I don't recall which talk it was, but I remember watching a talk (Benson, maybe?) and then realizing that the text online didn't match up with what the video said. I think an entire paragraph was missing. I emailed tech about it, and got a very bland answer.
The lesson I've learned in this is that I need to dig deeper in order to stay informed. It's a sad thing for society and the world, but for me personally, I don't think it's a bad lesson.
@@jenniferdunn9785 we just checked. Thankfully the talk is still there. It's called "Cleansing the Inner Vessel" from October 2010.
This is the conversation I’ve been aching to hear. Thank you.
Great description, that is how I think and feel as well.
I never comment. But this needs to be heard.
I recently gave a lesson to my young woman about how the Lord has given you weakness in order that you will come to him to fix you. It doesn't matter if you were born that way or what the science says, what matters is you go to the Lord to help you overcome the sin or the trial. That man and the ideas of man (ie transgenderism surgery) won't ever heal the wound. Only the Lord and Savior.. I haven't had a calling for 4 months now. I have heard that it is because I won't be quiet and I cause problems. Now I am silenced. I have only 2 friends in the ward. One also fired from Young Woman same day as me (also no new calling), because she refused to agree that a job is more important that being a mother and insisted that stay at home mothers are the best work you can do as woman of God. The other hides in a calling that has minimum interaction with other members. I am alone. It has been this way for 7 years now. I live in southern California. I keep praying to move away to get away from this, but I am beginning to see this is everywhere in the church now. There is no safe place any longer.
My ward has prayer groups to pray to Heavenly Mother. The young woman are taught to get a job first and that is most important motherhood is second best (99% of the woman work outside the home). I have heard that God is imperfect but is growing and you can see the growth as he is so angry in the Old testament and then mellows out in the New testament (Just think of the implications of an unperfected God. We don't have to follow all his commandments because he isn't perfect enough to see what I see. I can do as I please because I am a step further than God. Or maybe I don't have to repent in this life because there is time in the next). I have heard that we are not compassionate enough to the LGBTQ community and it is why we are losing them. We are too judgmental and we need to stand with them and SUPPORT and ACCEPT them, (a member of the Stake Presidency said). I have been in a ward in Seattle where the gay couples sit together at church and bare their testimonies (lack of a better word for their beliefs of making God in their own image). I have seen people unabashedly support abortion. People who suggest that the preisthood should be given to woman because more work would be done at the temple that way. Others who think that the LGTBQ will change just like the priesthood for the Blacks, the future revelation will be coming and the old guys in charge aren't ready to hear it just yet. I have heard people tout that their "truth" is the only truth. I have seen people who announce their sins and are glamorized and celebrated, (but with any wife beater that would never happen. What member stands up at the pulpit and unabashedly shares their sins and expected to be loved and told they don't need to change. The LGTBQ.) I have heard famous Rappers ticktock rant played over the pulpit like it is hard fast doctrine. There is more, much more. These are the most grievous.
Worst of all I have been harassed and stalked on facebook for my beliefs. Shunned and rejected by woman even in the bishopric. I have been ignore and forgotten. Not only am I not invited to any of the woman groups or mothers groups, but I am unwelcome, I have been de-Friended, called a bigot, a racist, a transphobic, a homophobic and many more cruel names and judgements (stake YW's leader was one of them). I am one who spoke up. I am one who has been through the fire for saying what is right. There is a price to be paid for speaking up.
Every week I am worried and terrified about what is being taught to my children in Primary and Young Womens' and Young Mens'. I am constantly trying to find out what they have been taught, asking them if they felt something was off or wrong. I am terrified to send my kids to Church, to where false doctrine is a weekly or even double duty (in sacrament and classes) occurrence. I am terrified of losing my children to those who are in position to influence my kids for the bad in a place where there should be trust and only the gospel. I just pray and hope that all my reading scriptures, family prayers, gospel discussions and come follow me will counteract all that happens at church with my children.
My conclusion is that I can only do my best to teach my own children to not fall into these cultural traps. My job is not to change those around me but to uphold and teach my own children at home. I no longer have a "Ward Family" and in fact isn't that just a lie as well. We won't be in heaven in ward families, but our own families. We have to put our family first. Ignore the rest. If I feel moved by the spirit to speak against it, I will. But until then I need to keep my head down and protect my family. I am responsible for my kids alone, not the choices of other members. Make sure my home is a refuge and center of peace from the storms that now rage at Church. I will do what the Lord needs me to do for my family. My stewardship is not to change or help these people. That is for the Lord and his timing and only when I am moved by the spirit. I cannot change their minds. Only The Lord can change them. And it isn't from someone who they already chosen as a scapegoat. I can only do what I can in the stewardship the Lord has given me. And that is my own family. I will take care of them first and let the rest fall where it may. I cannot concern myself with the salvation of everyone in the church. Just the precious few the Lord has entrusted me with.
Banana moose I never comment either, but I loved your concluding statement. You are absolutely right. Focus on fortifying your home and your family. Let God handle the rest. Even though it feels like you are alone, you are not. Angels are watching over you.
Wow...MOVE! my husband and I moved from Idaho to near the Bowling Green KY area. What a difference. The members here are very down to earth and humble. No drama here as I can tell. My gosh in Idaho sisters in RS were advocates for the queer lifestyle. This has been brewing ..I feel..since about 2017....I grew up in So. Cal...MOVE!..don't go to any pioneer corridor states...you'll just be more shocked!
This is truly gutwrenching and unfortunately very believable! How quickly these ideas can infiltrate and undermine the core doctrines of Christ in His Church. I pray that you can move but I know that is not always possible. Please continue to stand firm in your convictions, they will are right!
I’m in Davis County, Utah. This sounds like it could have been a story straight from my ward… I’m at a loss for words bc of how upside-down things have become...
I feel like you are writing what I am going through. Everytime I speak up I am released from my calling. I feel that this is a chance to refocus my efforts on my children. I have this chance to teach them correct principles. It is really hard to be on the "outside" but I feel like it has been a blessing. I am able to become closer to my Savior without distractions.
From what I can tell (based on what my wife tells me), any contention in our ward is in the Relief Society, which seems to be a pattern, though it's fairly mild. Honestly, Elders Quorum is so unthinkably dull that I'd welcome a little contention and some passionate opinions.
It does seem that too many Church members are misunderstanding the Church's admonition to gain personal revelation. The Church leaders have never stated or implied that we should just do our own thing and ignore their authority or counsel; that is absolutely NOT what personal revelation is about. Elder Renlund's talk last conference should have made that abundantly clear.
Great discussion, Greg and guests. It made me think about what I'm doing or not doing when in church or when talking to others.
This was great. I’m impressed with all of the speakers today. We will be called to defend our faith and our rights to practice it, even from the same people we sit in the pews with or share a home with. Sad and scary stuff. 😢
This adds to my testimony is the church is true! I now see that our testimonies are most inextricably and also most assuredly connected to the doctrines of the church! Knowing this helps me to follow the profit even greater and in a better way than before. I see that these standards must be upheld! In order for principles to stay in place and our testimonies to not falter! Thank you guys so much for your wisdom! Tom
Thank you that was great and dealt with the things I’m struggling with. My heart is breaking over these matters.
Great guests. She's right that by shying away from the Family Proclamation we're not sufficiently teaching doctrines vital to our families and members.
Regarding the spiral of silencing of members, the good news is that courage is courageous, and shows like Cwik will help others to be reinforced and speak up as well.
On the question of "why" are defenses not holding better against these ideologies, I think a key problem is that most members and leaders still do not recognize the threat. If we as a church more fully recognized the threat (and that the language and ideas aren't harmless), we would mobilize and could counter it. Right now people are not sufficiently mobilized and are too inclined to think all is well.
So my takeaway from this discussion is that people are not reading scriptures daily, and as a result collectively, people are confusing philosophies of men for philosophies of God.
Thank you for this. Well said. 100%.
yes contend, this is also what Bro. Christofferson said. We don't have to be contentious, but must contend. We must stand up for our values.
I think some members are trying to live with one foot in the world and one foot in the church. They’re trying very hard, with the intent to do good and be good, but it in my opinion it is a very slippery slope. It’s complicated to be sure. I don’t have answers for others, only for myself. The adversary hasn’t given up on trying to “get” any one of us and I know he entices by wrapping his traps inside a virtue. I think we must have thicker skin amongst our peers in our defense of Christ based truth. The “real” world actually exists inside the temple. It is a true refuge that reorients each time you enter in, participate and receive. Thank you for discussing. It has disturbed me for some time, witnessing these developments, but as I focus on my relationship with God, through Christ, peace is found. Praying for our people, no one stands outside of God’s love.
We live in the times Isaiah saw when good is called evil, and evil is called good.
Thank you! This is discussion is a great platform to address this pervasive and testimony destroying issue. I can't believe the destruction I'm seeing personally in my community even my family.
Thank you Greg, Carol, and Jacob it was so good to listen to your conversion. Amen. As you spoke these few thoughts flowed through my mind, which each of you talked about. Pres Oaks has said, questions are acceptable, opposition is not. I think it was him some twenty five or so years ago said, Roughly this, not accepting something and intolerance are not the same. As you spoke I kept wondering are we all following Pres Nelson’s invitation to spend more time in the temple?
I' listening and 2 things keep running through my head: there is another great apostasy (how many times have we been taught cleansing would begin in the church?!) and "Our FATHER , who art in heaven, hallowed be THY name...".
It is sad to see that members don't recognize their own apostasy because they are still "active"! I will never be PC but I will always be BC (Biblically Correct) to the best of my ability. We need to be reminded that when Christ appeared to the Nephites there was only a remnant of them left. 😢
We're still in the great apostasy.
I love your comment! The only thing that gives me comfort in this environment are the words of THE actual Christ found in the Gospels (JST) and 3rd Nephi. I'm clinging to them like a life preserver in the middle of the north sea. I'm surprised not to see more of that coming out of the mouths of our "thought leaders."
@@geography_guy335 Always nice to see people that get it. You may be right. I'd say we're either still in the Great Apostasy, or we're in a new season of apostasy. But either way, we're in apostasy. Most won't see it because they're blinded by false precepts that say the church can't or won't apostatize. Isaiah paints a perfect picture of what's going on, but his book will remain sealed to those who won't allow themselves to consider the possibility of what he prophesies.
When the primary president suggested we refuse attendance to "unvaccinated" children, I knew it was over. NEW WARD!
Wow... unbelievable a pri pres would do that.
Wow. That is heartbreaking.
I hope she was released.
That would have made me stand forward and disagree strongly on many grounds. I am a speak out person. It isn't easy but it is necessary. When our Ward didn't put the flag out for the Independence Day service I stepped up and had it brought out. I am female btw. Our organist refused to play our national anthem because she is from Canada but has been in America for decades and her 2 sons were born here! It was outrageous and many of us spoke out about it. It was sung the next Sunday. I admonished the Bishop that we would have happily sung it acappella . ( to be fair he was taken by surprise at her action). We are in a fight for our faith.
@@reppi8742 I chose my battles. I kept it about the Proclamation. In the end, it was the same result. Satan and his grievous wolves will destroy you if you stand up to them ESPECIALLY if they have a mantle of priesthood authority. Don't believe me, though, believe God: Read Section 121 again
The Church is in a hard place. Many members are leaving because it's not liberal enough. Some are leaving because it's not conservative enough! It reminds me of the Conference talk about staying on the ship.
Being Christlike means personal accountability for ourselves and everyone else. Without accountability the atonement and the gospel cannot help anyone. Today's culture (crt, blm,lgbtq, etc.) does not encourage personal accountability.
Exactly. That's why "wokeness" is a counterfeit to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
@@CwicShow great point!
If the Proclamation comes from the prophet (i.e. the First Presidency or the Church) then it IS revelation to and for the Church from prophets, seers and revelators who WE can, should and do sustain
Pres Benson's warning of condemnation for not studying the Book of Mormon has never been rescinded. Sometimes we only will get so many warnings. What else have we been warned of and are not paying attending to?
The breakdown of the family is the key to all of societies problems. The prophets have been addressing this for a very long time. The Proclamation on the Family is a holy and well timed document. It has been used at many United Nations forums by Family Watch.
Indeed
Just want to say thank you for your channel and especially this video. It voiced so intelligently all my thoughts Ivy been having on this topic, and gave me some good angles to approach this with my kids. Thank you!
that's the plan! I appreciate your feedback.
This IS the proper platform in which to have these conversations. Let’s go to church to renew our covenants and learn of Christ. Live your life as an example of a follower of Christ and be a peace maker. Make your home a temple. What would Christ do? Shouldn’t the Bishops individually council with those who are trying to bring these weird ideas into the Chapel like the praying to heavenly parents, etc. We have Wheat and tares literally growing next to each other on my very neighborhood street, and I know Christ would have never turn anyone away at the sermon on the mount. Those are my thoughts, thanks for all that you are doing Greg!
I love the desire shared here to have an open and loving conversation about these fundamental truths in the “public square” with our brothers and sisters! Let us also remember that the word of God is likened to a sword, the TRUTH cuts to the heart. We need to fear not, for the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, “piercing even to the dividing asunder.”
When we don’t speak up, and we allow these “anti-Christ” doctrines that are mingled with scriptures into our lessons, I believe we do come under condemnation.
We need to take courage!! Stand for truth and righteousness whenever and wherever we hear it! We can do this with love and compassion! We do not have to compromise God’s laws in order to love.
A few things about why our defenses aren’t holding and what to do about it:
1) One of the main reasons that our defenses aren’t holding is that these critiques of the church are couched in terms of charity. Charity is viewed as the heart of Christianity and when your positions are attacked as being uncharitable that strikes at the very core of what you claim you are as a disciple of Christ. Thus, if you are unable to reconcile these two things, you either give up on your position or you give up on Christ.
2) Another reason that our defenses aren’t holding is, in my opinion, that we have not done as good a job as we should in preaching the resurrection of Jesus. The doctrine of the resurrection means that our bodies are crucial to the plan. They are inescapably connected to salvation and eternal life. That means the binary of male and female and all of the sex differences built into our bodies are by design. It means that reproduction and families are part of the heavenly order. That means that righteousness is tied to the physicality of our bodies and that we are subject to a reality that is outside of just our minds. Carl Truman’s book does a great job discussing how we got to a place where nothing can trump what one feels inside or experiences inside one’s own mind. The resurrection of Jesus means that the outside reality of our bodies must be reckoned with, and carving them up or pumping them full of artificially made things to try to force them to our own will could never lead to happiness.
3) What do we do? Make the case for the inherent charity in the doctrines of the plan of salvation, especially those in the Proclamation on the Family.
4) What do we do about it? Preach the resurrection and all that that means.
Jacob Hess made the same analogy I've made for years about civil discourse likening it to marriage. It starts at the 14:42 mark. He is dead on.
I appreciate what Jared said about the church picking its battles. That makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is when it seemingly picked a side. Why not stay silent about jabs and masks and gay marriage legislation? Those are political issues, so why didn't it stay politically neutral?
A concern I have about ‘general’ authorities… I remember when Spencer W Kimball said to lengthen your stride. The last thing members of my family needed was that message. It pushed them to limits that caused so much angst they chose to have their names removed from the church. Since then the message that you should not run faster than needed has emerged and helped many LDS women avoid depression due to feeling inadequate. Personally I had young children when the general authorities were encouraging women to stay home and not work. We were writing letters in Relief Society to discourage the passage of the Women’s Rights amendment. Shortly there after a member of the General Relief Society wrote a book (Chieko Owasaki… cannot spell her name) called Lighten Up. In her book she shared her experience as a working mother and how rewarding it was. She was not a single mom who was forced in to the workforce. I made the choice to stay home at tremendous financial cost which I spent twenty years trying to recover from. It is all so confusing to me. I came to terms by saying that they give counsel based on the needs of the whole church. As an individual, their counsel may require me to consult with Heavenly Father in earnest prayer to find out how I should proceed. My first response should always be to heed their counsel but sometimes it is not always black and white. Recently the general authorities encouraged us to get vaccinated. Since that time there has been overwhelming evidence that these vaccines are harmful, and even deadly, in many instances. One of the most profound findings is that it harms women’s reproductive cycle and limits their ability to have families. These findings come from Pfizer’s own data. My neighbor is a person who has dedicated his life to building vaccines and holds one of the patents on the original mRNA technology believes the government has been dishonest in their promotion of these vaccines. Why would the general authorities promote something that produce so much harm? I personally have chosen not to be vaccinated, despite their counsel. It gets more and more difficult to take counsel from the general authorities when they wade in to political issues and over time are proven to be wrong. It used to be that they were ahead of their time And over time were proven to be right. It gets harder and harder to discern right from wrong.
My cousin told me I was not following the Prophet because I was not getting vaccinated immediately. That was one reason I chose not to get the vaccine.
@@williampaul7932 I do not understand why the church does not just stay out of politics. What benefit is there to wading in to controversial topics and choosing a side on issues.
It is interesting that the FP "urge" the vaccines right after the church invested billions into the the vaccine companies!
@@cherstinaneI think they got involved at one point because of policy. In government, our politicians affect policy, and policy affects people. Eventually it will affect the church to the point where it will have to go underground most likely. I don’t like warring with my neighbor or fellow church members, but the time is coming where if truth and doctrine are not clearly spoken and defended in church, then there won’t be a church left and a gospel left to defend.
I struggle knowing when to say anything and what to say. I was praying a few weeks ago for a answer to this when I listened to the Christmas devotional. I felt like Elder Oaks answered some of my questions in his address at the Christmas devotional. Because I don’t understand where love one another as Jesus loves you and live and let live, you do you, and don’t judge others just love them line up with the doctrine. Is it my job to correct people? I just don’t know when and what to say. Mostly in my ward there is a guy who always wants to beat the Covid drum and condemn people in the church for not taking Covid seriously when the prophet said………
I wish he wouldn’t do that. It’s divisive and I wish he wouldn’t talk about it in sacrament, and Sunday school. I wish I understood all of this better. Sometimes things are said that feel off.
Just say something. Don’t worry about embarrassment. Remember who you are supporting.
When to say something: when a point contrary to the truth is being promoted. What to say: doctrine, truth.
I've found speaking of doctrines and truths generally keeps the conversation from becoming personal. Some may take it personally, but that is not your responsibility if you speak kindly and objectivly about doctrine. The question of love is in the realm of correcting the individual. Just avoid that and simply stand for truth.
And remember, if you are thinking it, many others are as well, and will be glad some Vanguard spoke up for them to follow.
Try to not be combative, nor in pride. But be firm and unmovable.
But we have to say something now. If we don't we will have NOTHING left. They won't be content to just have 1 change. It will be 1 thing after another, after another in a never ending cycle. This is basically what happened to the 1st century church after the apostles were taken out. So if we do nothing, the result will be total loss.
Maybe talk to the EQP or your bishop first. Getting a "talking to" from one of the might be enough to get the guy to settle down. If that doesn't work, then absolutely speak up (in a way that doesn't explicitly rebuke him): "I feel that we really need to focus on the core aspects of the restored gospel and leave the fringe topics for discussions outside of the two-hour church block."
I know that getting "involved" in these things is nerve-racking, but if our only intention is to defend the Church/Lord/Brethren or to maintain the Spirit at church, then we can know we're doing the right thing.
Reply with scripture and doctrine. Say it with love, but don't stay silent. We especially need the faithful women of the Church to speak up.
Fantastic discussion!! With very knowledgeable people!
This show is so awesome, love it true to the point!!
55:25 The Prophet and Apostles ARE saying things, just maybe not as overtly and obvious as some members would like. The most obvious one to me is when President Nelson pleaded with us to make more time for the Lord (prayer/scripture study) If we are doing that sincerely, how can we go wrong? Some don’t want small and simple, they want grand and flashy. We also need to read between the lines of what the GAs are saying. Like Elder Bednar keeps saying, we need eyes to see and ears to hear and be taught by the Spirit.
You can listen to Conference talks from the 70s. They were much more direct!
As an addendum to my previous comment, until recently when I've been able to catch a ride with friends, it took 1.5 - 2 hours each way on public transportation to go to church meetings every week. How many in Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Nevada, California, or southern Alberta would go to church each week if it took that much time and effort? This itself would sift those who really have faith from the naysayers.
great discussion - thanks to all
I loved this discussion. What great guests! On speaking up, I just wish my mind didn’t freeze up at the first hint of conflict.😮
We must stick to what we know is true. We cannot debate the family and what constitutes a family. Each of those that choose to go against the traditional family, came from a traditional family in most circumstances. However people needs to realise that children are not formed from same sex marriage. So how do we as members do as the Lord told us, to go forward be fruitful and replenish the earth!
So true! Lesson on Family Proclamation in Priesthood meeting became contentious... one sided against the teacher. Some men walked out before someone finally stood up and said firmly "STOP "... this is wrong and the spirit has gone. It turned things around and the lesson went on much better.
The comment about General Authorities giving general counsel is a little misunderstood. I think I first heard it from Michael Rush and I mostly agree with what he was saying. Pres. Nelson has been pleading with the members to seek the Spirit and revelation in their lives. That is specific counsel directly from the Lord. Each of us should be seeking direct revelation from the Lord for us. General Authorities can give both general and specific counsel but it will rarely ever been as individually tailored to your needs as coming directly from the Lord. I like Moses sentiment where he said he wished all of the Israelites were prophets and were receiving revelation (for themselves and their families, not for the whole congregation). We should be seeking the Lord first and the Prophet and Apostles help in that endeavor but should not supersede it. The principles laid out in Elder Renlund's talk are important and timely.
I think they are referring to "general counsel" in the way somebody like Julie Hanks uses it, which is basically to pick and choose when you'll follow counsel from the Brethren. As President Oaks said, the personal line of revelation cannot be in conflict with the priesthood line.
Truth is truth. Either we hold to the rod, the simplicity and truth of the gospel or we don't.
It is written that in the latter days there will be a great falling away, this just might be it.
Great discussion!
I love this discussion so much; it does feel like our Church has been infiltrated with all of these various harmful ideologies. It is a spiritual war and that is a great point brought up is that we need to be Christlike and defend righteousness, even if others don't think it is being "kind." Going to Church has been a challenge lately because of these ideologies, but they are also at the school and workplaces. I guess I thought we would be able to better see through these deceptions and it is disheartening. I think personal revelation is very important as well as for the Church as a whole but some members are thinking they have personal authority and even authority over the Church and Christ's doctrine. It is all the separating of the wheat and the tares and its a struggle to recognize the Church we have known.
President, Benson, wrote a book I believe in 1962 talking about this. Comparing marxist ideology and tactics to what went on in the book of Mormon and is pretty dead on to what we’re experiencing today.
We don’t remember the recent history of the church either very well. My understanding is the Marxist ideology, had to be pushed out of church in the 30s 40s and 50s.
It’s back.
The Lord instructed Lehi to have his sons return to Jerusalem to obtain the brass plates, lest his posterity should dwindle in unbelief and when I see young or old go off the path it appears to me that they are not founded sufficiently in God's word and thus become victims of every wind of doctrine. And as we all know the "winds" are blowing fiercely all around us here in the bottom of the ninth inning.
When I was attending Priesthood Leadership Training with Elder Oakes in the late '80s and as you may remember the push to counsel women not to work outside the home. During the Q&A at the end, the question was posed about the counsel because members couldn't create a standard of living without two incomes, basically asking permission for doing that. Elder Oakes responded, "I can't answered that. It's a specific example and I'm only a general authority.
I feel the quote given took comments like my example and turned it on its head.
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@24:00 forgive me, but every time the leaders of the Church cave or appear to cave to social pressure to change Church doctrine, policy, or practice, they further embolden that "activist class".
When they got rid of the Priesthood and Women's sessions of conference in favor of a single adult session, the activist enemies of the Church cheered because it was a signal to them that the Church was changing its policies and practices toward androgeny.
When they Changed the covenants in the temple in 2019 and gave Eve more lines, the activists believed that their social pressure caused that change.
When Elder Ballard and Elder Soares say that there is no president of the family, and other things that seem to contradict the proclamation on the family's statement that "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families...", the activists cheer and start focusing on calling for "adjusting" or even "replacing" the proclamation.
So what are regular members supposed to do when our prophets give weapons to our enemies?
Gay men's choir ar the DC Temple..yikes..great comment.
I think we've been conditioned for decades to not speak about certain things, and it's getting worse as time goes on. I don't remember the last time I heard a good discussion about the Word of Wisdom, for example. Whenever we get to Section 89 in the Doctrine and Covenants, they used to skirt around the things we shouldn't do, and ignore the things we should do. Last time they didn't even take about the things we shouldn't do that are found in the Word of Wisdom. That's just one example.
Seeing General Authorities as being limited to providing overarching general guidance while turning to personal revelation on how that guidance should be enacted in our lives makes so much sense to me. It is very much in keeping with E. Christofferson's comments that personal revelation supersedes the revealed word of God illustrated by Nephi's personal revelation to kill Laban. Thank you for sharing that message!
Stand up for the Family Proclamation, I do it, no Bishop or Stake President had better not tell you otherwise, if they do, they need to be released....
Agreed. But it isn't happening. We all know of bishops who don't really believe the Proclamation. They are under tremendous pressure to keep tithing coming in.
@@rolandsmith4394 I honestly do not know of a bishop that does not support and believe in the Proclamaiton on the Family...
@@BD-xi1tv I'm happy for you. My brother is one.
My leaders are far more comfortable bullying me than reasoning with me point for point. My stake president has gone so far as to delegate the church's firm of lawyers to mail me a threatening and illegal letter, criminally and civilly, alleging my being some undefined risk and threatening various consequences for attending church anywhere. The allegation of the bretheren" being oppressors is supported by D&C 121:39, which claims ". . . almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority . . . exercise unrighteous dominion."
Yes! Nice is passive and weak. It is as ineffective and wrong as is "mean." Bold, however is strong and firm and definitely not passive. Love is bold. Charity is bold. President Monson's definition of charity is very helpful, especially the line explaining charity is "resisting the impulse to be offended."
I lived in Sis. Andersen's Ward in downtown SLC not long after she was excommunicated back in 92-96. She used to wear a ribbon at conference time that she said represented Priesthood Oppression. She had a megaphone as an Author to promote church activism when she was excommunicated with those 6 or 7. She was a nice person but she was a church activist back then when she was one of the only ones outwardly promoting activism. Her excommunication clearly showed she was doing so outside of church approval and she was essentially teaching her own brand of church. Now,.there are ususally a few of those in each ward, sometimes, even a Bishop who interject their philosophies in class or talks and don't face excommunication or they are doing it online and don't face excommunication. Rarely, do they face excommunication. I think the line of delineation has become something you can't even talk about since being over the line is such a gray area now. Not finding the Miracle of Forgiveness at Deseret and finding Rough Stone Rolling is a good example.
Yes Korihors on every street corner.
Thank you.
In my ward (and stake) I am continually frustrated that the programs and purpose of the Church as it pertains to 'perfecting the saints' and in some degrees 'proclaiming the gospel' (Kimball 1981). I have lived through many Church evolutions and served in multiple leadership callings for most of the past 40 years, but the current attitudes that seem to be prevalent since we exited the pandemic really concerns me. In some cases these have been excused under the umbrella of 'personal revelation' or being 'home focused', but there seems to be an overwhelming effort to support and promote what seem to be 'Woke' agendas. I have family members that span the gambit on current subjects (LGBTQ+, genderless identity, etc.) so I feel aware of these arguments in the Church context, but listening to sacrament meeting talks and SS\PH\RS lessons that suggest the Lord is behind some of these social changes bothers me. Most can quote some GA conference talk to back up their position, but IMO fail to reconcile these singular references with others in the broader picture.
At first I was outspoken (and still am when given the opportunity) but I was told very explicitly that I was offending leaders and members when I suggested things like leaders needed to attend Church )we have at least one president in our ward who is has yet to come to Church after the pandemic restrictions were lifted) , or organization efforts needed to provide something more than a place to gather and chit-chat (i.e. plan activities and lessons with a purpose). I've been told by Ward/Church leaders that 'the Lord wouldn't have called me if he didn't want me to do it this way', ''we can't do that because it will offend XXX' or 'everyone is to overwhelmed to hear that'.
My concern is that as I watch, those that are 'leaving' are not just those who feel they have been 'enlightened' but many stalwarts who no longer find the Church able to meet their personal needs. In a couple of cases, these members have decided to go to other wards in a neighboring stake, but many just come for the sacrament and then exit to avoid these cultural conflicts.
Five years ago, I would have been all over them to encourage them to join with us, but lately I have begun to see (and feel) the frustration they are feeling that is driving them to find lesser ways to be true to their covenants (i.e. partake of the sacrament) but not part of the rest.
🖐
Yes, the people leaving also include those that hold tight to their convictions and don't recognize the Church anymore. They are the ones being turned away because of fighting for truth and righteousness. Something is definitely off!!
Families are the order of heaven....pure truth!!
Watchmen must not allow an opponent from stealing a march from you, getting inside your OODA Loop, catching you unawares, and not ready.
Political correctness has castrated the church as a whole. We have been shamed into submission.
The entertainment industry also has a massive influence on young attitudes and morals
Excellent discussion
Well, when Jonah refused to speak up he found himself inside a big fish, then regurgitated.
Haha, thanks!
I loved a lot of what Jacob stated in this video.
At 56:20 this was something that I struggled with a couple years ago but his statement here clears it up so much.
37:50 is such an important statement about the lie that is being propagated throughout much of the west. Somehow, even members of the church, seem to believe that the gospel cannot be a good fit for people who struggle with LGBT identities. Either the Gospel is proclaimed to all the world through the Son of God for the betterment of every man or woman, or it is not. It cannot be a mixed bag.
Thanks for your work Greg. I really appreciate these videos.
Starting a GoFundMe so Jacob can invest in a stable camera.
😁
I've heard President Oaks himself say that the reason that they're called "General Authorities" is exactly for that reason--to not have to comment on things too specifically. He joked when he said it, and everyone laughed, but I suspect General Authorities use that when they need to. So it's interesting to hear your (Greg's) comment about that in the context of what's being discussed in this video (around 12:30 - 13:15). Thanks for all your work.
Thanks for Carrol and Jacob on the podcast for the best way to deal with the change in society, and the humble approach we need to have with all of these issues that we have to deal with people now and in the future. Satin is the father of all lies, and we are experiencing how he is trying to pull at our heart strings to say to us, we are compassionate people, but satin is not following the covenant path, instead, he want to lead us into the mist of darkness to blind us with our own pride. I'm not a bad person, but are you following the covenant path? The answer will be no. Turn around and hold onto the rod as your guest have mentioned. Your right, there will be a time where we will draw a line in the sand, but this is not the time. This is just starting the worst is yet to come, so, we are going to have to be able to express ourselves and stand up and say something, because if we don't the world will change at a more rapid pace. President Nelson did give a talk on "receiving personal inspiration". I need to listen to it. Thanks for the podcast.
2 Thessalions 2:3-11 Strong delusions while people are blind, and in gross darkness. They are falling away. We are seeing a great falling away in our time. People love sin and wealth more than god and more than helping people in need. And extreme pride.
You are so right. We all need to repent but we should stand up for the standards of the gospel. We may stand alone and in fact I believe we will. We should follow the Prophet even if it is difficult.
Anyone who wants to take upon own shoulders... to steady the way Of The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is led, have a weight on their lives that will bring them to their knees in repentance
Under condemnation for treating the BofM lightly - I was Baptized in 1986 & confined by Ezra Taft Benson great-grandson - so Ezra Taft was The Prophet to me - it works!
We are at a point similar to Mormon's day:
"Behold, I am laboring with them continually; and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it; wherefore, I fear lest the Spirit of the Lord hath ceased striving with them" (Moroni 9:4)
I'll add this, in 2008, I started growing facial hair, and some members started being offended, some even angry at me. Some said I was a bad return missionary for it, etc, and over the years since then, some have left the church, some have had children come out of the closet, etc. So the way I feel about it is that we should have been less concerned about facial hair and more discerning about things that were beginning to erupt that actually affected the salvation of people.
We had a lot of conflict in my ward, especially due to covid. We had one sister that said she was going to bully anyone that didn't get the jab, then made good on her promise 😢
A very relevant quote: "Sadly, much of modern Christianity does not acknowledge that God makes any real demands on those who believe in Him, seeing Him rather as a butler “who meets their needs when summoned” or a therapist whose role is to help people “feel good about themselves.” It is a religious outlook that “makes no pretense at changing lives.” “By contrast,” as one author declares, “the God portrayed in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures asks, not just for commitment, but for our very lives. The God of the Bible traffics in life and death, not niceness, and calls for sacrificial love, not benign whatever-ism.”
- “As Many as I Love, I Rebuke and Chasten” By Elder D. Todd Christofferson
I live in Orem and struggle to go to RS as well. Our Bishop has had to get up twice after Gospel Doctrine and speak because of the contention and false doctrine. It doesn't get called out in RS. We've been told not to teach truth of it offends. I don't recognize the church or my country anymore.
Good grief, what is being discussed in Gospel doctrine and how is it brought up?
Thanks!
Welcome!