As an Indian I'll say this, good depiction in DCS, although I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but still good depiction of that incident. Fun fact, both that ig-21 pilot that got shot down as well as the F-86 pilot that shot him down were once classmates in the US training on the F-86
Unwelcome comments from the Indian side; the Pakistani Air Force, on some instances, displayed phenomenal success against our own Indian Air Force. The decision to conduct pre-emptive strikes against our air bases was a very courageous one. I believe that both Air Forces learnt good lessons from this war, and much-needed ones, at that. A sad thing to note is that 54 of our armed forces personnel haven't returned home till date; some of them might still be alive, and languishing in Pakistani jails. Semper Fidelis to them.
Both sides did displayed courage and no one can deny it. The pre emptive strikes was a bold move but did not created the impact or the damage PAF wanted and hence it was a failure imo. This made PAF to be on the defensive side. I believe PAF was over confident and they paid for it in this war. Rest let's hope that the pows of both sides return home, it's decades now.
Thank you for posting this topic. Here is the reality of the 1971 war: As Pakistan lost the land war, the air war was totally eclipsed by that event. The PAF had achieved total air superiority on the Western front; East Pakistan was a different matter as there was hardly any PAF presence in that sector. The legendary American pilot Chuck Yeager wrote about the air war of 1971 in his autobiography. He was the US military attaché to Pakistan during those days. He himself went out to several crash areas and verified several PAF kills and wrote (in typical American fashion), "...the Pakistanis were whuppin' their asses..." 71 IAF aircraft were shot down in the first day of the war on the Western front. The father of one of my very old friends, Wamiq Rasheed, flew F-86's during the conflict. He passed away a few years ago in Houston at the age of 80 or 81. I had the excitement and privilege of speaking with him on numerous occasions about the conflict. I also met and spoke with Atiq Sufi who flew MIG-19's (designated the F-6 by the PAF) during 1971. He too passed away in Karachi 5-7 years ago. Both are listed on the Air Aces homepage along with other PAF pilots. I am 57 now so that should give you an idea of the chronology of events and my relationship to them. I was 6 when the 1971 war broke out and remember it quite well. One of Rasheed's engagement was while flying an F-86 against 3 x SU-7's. Here is the story as related to me when I was 19: "I was returning from a ground attack support mission flying west back into Pakistan. It was dusk and the visibility was becoming very poor. Upon entering friendly airspace I climbed up a bit and was constantly moving my head all over to keep an eye out for enemy aircraft. Suddenly, as I looked down on the right side, I saw emerging from a low cloud cover, a perfect formation of 3 SU-7's headed east. They were below me. We quickly passed each other and they were perhaps 1/2 mile or so from me. I thought they may turn around and engage me but they did not and I figured that they simply did not see me. I made a hard right and increased speed to catch up as the SU-7 is a much faster aircraft than the F-86. By now visibility was pretty bad (twilight). I caught up to them and they were in a modified "finger four" formation as they were only 3 of them. To my amazement, they still did not realize that an enemy aircraft had crept up behind them. At about 300 yards, I targeted the aircraft on the furthermost left as I thought him to be the leader and fired a very short burst from my guns. I had the bipper right on the rear of the cockpit and I'm certain that I hit but to my shock....absolutely nothing happened...and the other two never reacted! It had become almost dark and I could make out vague outlines of the SU-7's. I was also running very low on fuel. I moved closed to about 200 yards. This time I fired a longer burst at the same impact point (rear of cockpit) and now the cockpit of the SU-7 burst into flames. I already had momentum going forward and realized that I was now extremely close to the other two. The struck aircraft fell toward the left trailing smoke. The other two now realized that something terrible had just occurred and simultaneously broke right and I was still going forward. I had the horrible feeling that I was going to collide with the middle SU-7. For a brief moment, the faces of my wife and children flashed across my eyes. I flipped the F-86 over to the left to avoid a midair and at the same time hit a switch which set the gunsight for a 50 yard (point blank) range engagement. I fired (while upside down) at the middle SU-7 and hit (peppered) him on the upper fuselage and he also began to trail smoke. Both remaining SU-7's opened up their power and being supersonic quickly increased the gap between themselves and me and took off. The one trailing smoke was following the first. My fuel situation being critical I quickly turned around. When my wheels touched the ground, I flamed out." Atiq Sufi shot down an SU-7 while flying an F-6 in a dogfight. Ironically, Rasheed never once "bad mouthed" the IAF pilots always referring to them as "good, solid flyers." In fact he told another story of how a senior IAF wing commander, a Sikh officer whose MIG-21 was shot down by an F-86, and who ejected safely over Pakistan, was quickly picked up by the PAF. Rasheed explained that the worst fear they had was that the local people would get a downed IAF officer first and harm or kill him. He said that the Sikh officer once in custody was greeted very warmly at the base, and being a senior officer and was taken down into the bunkers where he shared several cold beers with the PAF pilots. And where he was introduced to the young flight lieutenant who had shot him down and the gun camera footage was reviewed and they discussed (over beers) what "mistakes" he made that led to him being downed!!! LOL! Absolutely amazing! According to Rasheed, there was always the old warrior romance and chivalry among the PAF and IAF pilots and they respected each other. The air war of 1971 was far more intense than that of 1965. Western historians/media have largely ignored this historic conflict of the air where the jet "dogfighters" and "air to air" gunnery came of age in the jet age. According to him, many many low level dogfights took place and they would return with their "bellies green" because of scraping the treetops. Missiles were new and fairly unreliable. Rasheed recounted another engagement where he got behind a MIG-21 and received a missile tone and fired and saw the missile go "clean past" the MIG-21. He explained that the missile has a system whereby if it missed its target, it was supposed to explode immediately, thus allowing for some possible damage to the enemy aircraft. However, in this case, it never even did that and simply nose dived into the ground. There were also were no radars inside the aircrafts. Per Rasheed, you had to have your head "on a swivel." Most of these old hell raisers have left us now. My one regret is that I did not somehow record these narratives, either on tape or video. But I was young and the young only appreciate history once they are old.
Thank you very much for the above . It was really nice reading it. We have very few left from the time of 65 and 71 who can narrate and tell us about those victories in the air. But we still try.. try to find what we can from first hand sources. Our friend at dcs world Pak also recreated couple of videos with another friend. For one they got the information first hand. We did try to have something setup but the Aces from that time are not available to meet, yet we try. I will definitely ask some of the people to look at the narration you have given and see if we can reproduce it
@@ThunderingVipers I have some really great news. I spoke with my friend and he does have his father's original hand-filled out logbook. The incident I mentioned is in it. The first entries are from from 1958 I believe when Rasheed was being trained on the Tiger Moth (biplane) and the T-6 (Texan). We will now scan the entire log book. I cannot give a time frame but we hope to do this within 6 months or so as we both live in different cities. My friend emailed me some scanned pages of it and it is a historical treasure cove and the past of the PAF. I will keep you posted.
@@ThunderingVipers you lost more planes in 3 out of 4 wars .😂😂 You lost half nation , you took kargil we took it back. You wanted to get Kashmir look who has 70% of it. You lost east Pakistanis
Air war was also lost by pakistan Every time , if air superioriy was there nothing pakistan was able to capture or destroy and the American pilot you talking about his own personel aircraft was destroyed by IAF strikes in west, in west IAF was not on very aggresive mode due to more intrest in east sector , 6 Hunter aircraft in Longewala Rajasthan destroyed/damaged 52 tanks , there was no PAF to their rescue
I remember the first day of the 1971 dog fight that took place over kalidunda air base between knats of the IAF and not sure which fighter plane the Pakistan Air Force was flying but the news papers showed the faces of two Pakistan pilots on the front page who were shot down and parachuted into India territory. In the 1971 war the PAF could not do much in both the eastern and western front most of their pilots ran away to Pakistan via Mayanmar and Sri Lanka even before the surrender of east Pakistan. In west Pakistan also they could not give much ground support Karachi port was totally destroyed by the Indian navy but the PAF was not there same thing happened during Kargil
Yup. I believe PAF was much over confident in the 71 war and hence suffered due to this on both front The eastern front was pretty much very low on numbers and hence could not do anything significant. While the western front again could not produce anything on a bigger scale
Pakistan sirf apny he logo ke wja sy or apny he logo sy hara tha india ka kuch zyada kmal nhi tha. Jab hmari army ke apni harkto k waja sa country k aik hisay k population hi army k khilaf ho jay world ke konsi army ha jo asi jang jeet jai. Koi dosri country b hoti har jati. Bengali uth khary huay thay. India na b sport karta Bangles na mzahmat shuru kar de thi ya vibal he nhi tha Pakistan k lya k zyada time civil war chalti Pakistan ke economy ma tab east pakistan major share holder tha. Ya zrori nhi hota app k pass hthyar superior hon to jang nhi har sakty. Agar ya jang Pakistan or india k darmyan jang hoti to Pakistan kbi na harta. Pakistan army apni he kom k khilaf operation shuru kar chuki thi.
Ya b haqeqat ha Pakistan airforce k pass numbers ma fighter zaror kam ho ga lakin hamesha India sy superior fighter he rakhy han. Han ab kah sakty han india na match kya ha Rafael purchase kar k.
@Avan.....jokes aside....you should be knowing that in Dec 1971 PAF fought with 13 F-86 against 10 Squadrons of IAF (10x16) which means 160 aircrafts.....unless you are weak in mathematics any one can see the difference in numbers was huge ut PAF fought. Go and read the actual facts and ask your bengali brothers how PAF shot down SU7s over Dhaka !!!
Indian Claims 17 aircraft and 2 helicopters loses Pakistani Claims 23 Indian warplanes shot down by PAF and Anti-Aircraft guns Pakistan losses 23 aircraft lost altogether, 1 helicopter shot down. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Pakistan_Air_Operations_%281971%29
you lost more planes in 3 out of 4 wars .😂😂 You lost half nation , you took kargil we took it back. You wanted to get Kashmir look who has 70% of it. You lost east Pakistanis .. What about navy your entire navy was destroyed in 1971 karachi port was burning for 6 days 😂😂we destroyed more than half of your navy😂😂. And dont forget 93k surrender.. yiu were lucky that 1 lakh soldiers already escaped somehow otherwise it would have been very big surrender. Dont forget how ins vikrant hit dhaka ,east Pakistan. Carrier fleet bombed governors house so that governer resigned 😂😂😂
india lost 3 wars out of 4. 1 Kashmir war Pakistan snatched gilgat baltistan 40% part if Kashmir.Pakistan regular army was still out of Pakistan even then Pakistan army srated advancing towards Kashmir immediately Nehro went to UNO and agreed for giving the self determination right to the Kashmiries.And stoped the war. 2 india lost the war in run of kuchch where india illegally enter in run off kuchh where pakistan army again defeated Indian army and they ran away from run of kuchh. 3 1965 war india lost the dawarka radar by the Pakistan bavy indian aircraft carrier was hiding in some where in some sea port because of ghazi submarine. Pakistan air force completely destroyed indian Air force in air and on the ground.M.M Alam set a world record by shooting down 5 indian hunters in 35 seconds,due to that indian pilots never dare to attack on Pakistan bases. Pakistan airforce destroyed the indian air bases like pathankot and clikunda and destroyed all the aircrafts and airfields and everything standing over there.After that indian air force was completely immobilizerd by Pakistan air force .PAF destroyed all the armered core attacking the lahore and Sialkot.destroing almost all the the tanks in Sialkot more then 400 tanks at chawinda.Due these havy loses lal bahdur shastri immediately wnent to UNO and requested for seazfire. It is on the record.
@@rasheedahmed9022my friend your frustration can not change history take some time and read the Wikipedia all your doubts will be crystal clear Jai hind.
As an Indian I'll say this, good depiction in DCS, although I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but still good depiction of that incident.
Fun fact, both that ig-21 pilot that got shot down as well as the F-86 pilot that shot him down were once classmates in the US training on the F-86
"Sidewinder", the snake remains the same in any language.
Unwelcome comments from the Indian side; the Pakistani Air Force, on some instances, displayed phenomenal success against our own Indian Air Force. The decision to conduct pre-emptive strikes against our air bases was a very courageous one.
I believe that both Air Forces learnt good lessons from this war, and much-needed ones, at that.
A sad thing to note is that 54 of our armed forces personnel haven't returned home till date; some of them might still be alive, and languishing in Pakistani jails. Semper Fidelis to them.
Both sides did displayed courage and no one can deny it. The pre emptive strikes was a bold move but did not created the impact or the damage PAF wanted and hence it was a failure imo. This made PAF to be on the defensive side.
I believe PAF was over confident and they paid for it in this war.
Rest let's hope that the pows of both sides return home, it's decades now.
Thank you for posting this topic. Here is the reality of the 1971 war: As Pakistan lost the land war, the air war was totally eclipsed by that event. The PAF had achieved total air superiority on the Western front; East Pakistan was a different matter as there was hardly any PAF presence in that sector.
The legendary American pilot Chuck Yeager wrote about the air war of 1971 in his autobiography. He was the US military attaché to Pakistan during those days. He himself went out to several crash areas and verified several PAF kills and wrote (in typical American fashion), "...the Pakistanis were whuppin' their asses..." 71 IAF aircraft were shot down in the first day of the war on the Western front.
The father of one of my very old friends, Wamiq Rasheed, flew F-86's during the conflict. He passed away a few years ago in Houston at the age of 80 or 81. I had the excitement and privilege of speaking with him on numerous occasions about the conflict. I also met and spoke with Atiq Sufi who flew MIG-19's (designated the F-6 by the PAF) during 1971. He too passed away in Karachi 5-7 years ago. Both are listed on the Air Aces homepage along with other PAF pilots. I am 57 now so that should give you an idea of the chronology of events and my relationship to them. I was 6 when the 1971 war broke out and remember it quite well. One of Rasheed's engagement was while flying an F-86 against 3 x SU-7's.
Here is the story as related to me when I was 19: "I was returning from a ground attack support mission flying west back into Pakistan. It was dusk and the visibility was becoming very poor. Upon entering friendly airspace I climbed up a bit and was constantly moving my head all over to keep an eye out for enemy aircraft. Suddenly, as I looked down on the right side, I saw emerging from a low cloud cover, a perfect formation of 3 SU-7's headed east. They were below me. We quickly passed each other and they were perhaps 1/2 mile or so from me. I thought they may turn around and engage me but they did not and I figured that they simply did not see me. I made a hard right and increased speed to catch up as the SU-7 is a much faster aircraft than the F-86. By now visibility was pretty bad (twilight). I caught up to them and they were in a modified "finger four" formation as they were only 3 of them. To my amazement, they still did not realize that an enemy aircraft had crept up behind them. At about 300 yards, I targeted the aircraft on the furthermost left as I thought him to be the leader and fired a very short burst from my guns. I had the bipper right on the rear of the cockpit and I'm certain that I hit but to my shock....absolutely nothing happened...and the other two never reacted! It had become almost dark and I could make out vague outlines of the SU-7's. I was also running very low on fuel. I moved closed to about 200 yards. This time I fired a longer burst at the same impact point (rear of cockpit) and now the cockpit of the SU-7 burst into flames. I already had momentum going forward and realized that I was now extremely close to the other two. The struck aircraft fell toward the left trailing smoke. The other two now realized that something terrible had just occurred and simultaneously broke right and I was still going forward. I had the horrible feeling that I was going to collide with the middle SU-7. For a brief moment, the faces of my wife and children flashed across my eyes. I flipped the F-86 over to the left to avoid a midair and at the same time hit a switch which set the gunsight for a 50 yard (point blank) range engagement. I fired (while upside down) at the middle SU-7 and hit (peppered) him on the upper fuselage and he also began to trail smoke. Both remaining SU-7's opened up their power and being supersonic quickly increased the gap between themselves and me and took off. The one trailing smoke was following the first. My fuel situation being critical I quickly turned around. When my wheels touched the ground, I flamed out."
Atiq Sufi shot down an SU-7 while flying an F-6 in a dogfight.
Ironically, Rasheed never once "bad mouthed" the IAF pilots always referring to them as "good, solid flyers." In fact he told another story of how a senior IAF wing commander, a Sikh officer whose MIG-21 was shot down by an F-86, and who ejected safely over Pakistan, was quickly picked up by the PAF. Rasheed explained that the worst fear they had was that the local people would get a downed IAF officer first and harm or kill him. He said that the Sikh officer once in custody was greeted very warmly at the base, and being a senior officer and was taken down into the bunkers where he shared several cold beers with the PAF pilots. And where he was introduced to the young flight lieutenant who had shot him down and the gun camera footage was reviewed and they discussed (over beers) what "mistakes" he made that led to him being downed!!! LOL! Absolutely amazing! According to Rasheed, there was always the old warrior romance and chivalry among the PAF and IAF pilots and they respected each other.
The air war of 1971 was far more intense than that of 1965. Western historians/media have largely ignored this historic conflict of the air where the jet "dogfighters" and "air to air" gunnery came of age in the jet age. According to him, many many low level dogfights took place and they would return with their "bellies green" because of scraping the treetops. Missiles were new and fairly unreliable. Rasheed recounted another engagement where he got behind a MIG-21 and received a missile tone and fired and saw the missile go "clean past" the MIG-21. He explained that the missile has a system whereby if it missed its target, it was supposed to explode immediately, thus allowing for some possible damage to the enemy aircraft. However, in this case, it never even did that and simply nose dived into the ground. There were also were no radars inside the aircrafts. Per Rasheed, you had to have your head "on a swivel."
Most of these old hell raisers have left us now. My one regret is that I did not somehow record these narratives, either on tape or video. But I was young and the young only appreciate history once they are old.
Thank you very much for the above . It was really nice reading it.
We have very few left from the time of 65 and 71 who can narrate and tell us about those victories in the air. But we still try.. try to find what we can from first hand sources.
Our friend at dcs world Pak also recreated couple of videos with another friend.
For one they got the information first hand. We did try to have something setup but the Aces from that time are not available to meet, yet we try.
I will definitely ask some of the people to look at the narration you have given and see if we can reproduce it
@@ThunderingVipers I have some really great news. I spoke with my friend and he does have his father's original hand-filled out logbook. The incident I mentioned is in it. The first entries are from from 1958 I believe when Rasheed was being trained on the Tiger Moth (biplane) and the T-6 (Texan). We will now scan the entire log book. I cannot give a time frame but we hope to do this within 6 months or so as we both live in different cities. My friend emailed me some scanned pages of it and it is a historical treasure cove and the past of the PAF. I will keep you posted.
@@ThunderingVipers you lost more planes in 3 out of 4 wars .😂😂
You lost half nation , you took kargil we took it back. You wanted to get Kashmir look who has 70% of it. You lost east Pakistanis
Air war was also lost by pakistan Every time , if air superioriy was there nothing pakistan was able to capture or destroy and the American pilot you talking about his own personel aircraft was destroyed by IAF strikes in west, in west IAF was not on very aggresive mode due to more intrest in east sector , 6 Hunter aircraft in Longewala Rajasthan destroyed/damaged 52 tanks , there was no PAF to their rescue
@@harpreetSINGH-wu4dj The tea was fantastic.
A nice flashback to the past! Good one ghost!
Very good video, i like the differennce in taste going back to the history and showing old jets
I remember the first day of the 1971 dog fight that took place over kalidunda air base between knats of the IAF and not sure which fighter plane the Pakistan Air Force was flying but the news papers showed the faces of two Pakistan pilots on the front page who were shot down and parachuted into India territory. In the 1971 war the PAF could not do much in both the eastern and western front most of their pilots ran away to Pakistan via Mayanmar and Sri Lanka even before the surrender of east Pakistan. In west Pakistan also they could not give much ground support Karachi port was totally destroyed by the Indian navy but the PAF was not there same thing happened during Kargil
Yup. I believe PAF was much over confident in the 71 war and hence suffered due to this on both front
The eastern front was pretty much very low on numbers and hence could not do anything significant. While the western front again could not produce anything on a bigger scale
Very nice! Loved it!
Agar pakistan ki air force itni superior thi to Bangladesh alag kyo huva.khoob jhuth failaya karo
Pakistan sirf apny he logo ke wja sy or apny he logo sy hara tha india ka kuch zyada kmal nhi tha. Jab hmari army ke apni harkto k waja sa country k aik hisay k population hi army k khilaf ho jay world ke konsi army ha jo asi jang jeet jai. Koi dosri country b hoti har jati. Bengali uth khary huay thay. India na b sport karta Bangles na mzahmat shuru kar de thi ya vibal he nhi tha Pakistan k lya k zyada time civil war chalti Pakistan ke economy ma tab east pakistan major share holder tha. Ya zrori nhi hota app k pass hthyar superior hon to jang nhi har sakty. Agar ya jang Pakistan or india k darmyan jang hoti to Pakistan kbi na harta. Pakistan army apni he kom k khilaf operation shuru kar chuki thi.
Ya b haqeqat ha Pakistan airforce k pass numbers ma fighter zaror kam ho ga lakin hamesha India sy superior fighter he rakhy han. Han ab kah sakty han india na match kya ha Rafael purchase kar k.
@Avan.....jokes aside....you should be knowing that in Dec 1971 PAF fought with 13 F-86 against 10 Squadrons of IAF (10x16) which means 160 aircrafts.....unless you are weak in mathematics any one can see the difference in numbers was huge ut PAF fought. Go and read the actual facts and ask your bengali brothers how PAF shot down SU7s over Dhaka !!!
Because india ki army size main double se bhi jyada thi like 1962 main Chinese Army jyada badi thi simple
It's pilot ability to shoot down a superior fighter even himself in an inferior fighter
Indian Claims
17 aircraft and 2 helicopters loses
Pakistani Claims
23 Indian warplanes shot down by PAF and Anti-Aircraft guns
Pakistan losses
23 aircraft lost altogether,
1 helicopter shot down.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Pakistan_Air_Operations_%281971%29
India ne tumari.le li thi puri tarh 😅😅😅😅😅
Inspite of backing of super power america and britain, PAK got dismantled. So you may won some battles but ultimately we won the war.
Ohhhh realllyyyy????
Nice
The tea was fantastic!🤣🤣🤣
Not even in yr dream s😂😂
you lost more planes in 3 out of 4 wars .😂😂
You lost half nation , you took kargil we took it back. You wanted to get Kashmir look who has 70% of it. You lost east Pakistanis ..
What about navy your entire navy was destroyed in 1971 karachi port was burning for 6 days 😂😂we destroyed more than half of your navy😂😂.
And dont forget 93k surrender.. yiu were lucky that 1 lakh soldiers already escaped somehow otherwise it would have been very big surrender. Dont forget how ins vikrant hit dhaka ,east Pakistan.
Carrier fleet bombed governors house so that governer resigned 😂😂😂
Video triggered a randian.
Purpose achieved.
india lost 3 wars out of 4.
1 Kashmir war Pakistan snatched gilgat baltistan 40% part if Kashmir.Pakistan regular army was still out of Pakistan even then Pakistan army srated advancing towards Kashmir immediately Nehro went to UNO and agreed for giving the self determination right to the Kashmiries.And stoped the war.
2 india lost the war in run of kuchch where india illegally enter in run off kuchh where pakistan army again defeated Indian army and they ran away from run of kuchh.
3 1965 war india lost the dawarka radar by the Pakistan bavy indian aircraft carrier was hiding in some where in some sea port because of ghazi submarine.
Pakistan air force completely destroyed indian Air force in air and on the ground.M.M Alam set a world record by shooting down 5 indian hunters in 35 seconds,due to that indian pilots never dare to attack on Pakistan bases.
Pakistan airforce destroyed the indian air bases like pathankot and clikunda and destroyed all the aircrafts and airfields and everything standing over there.After that indian air force was completely immobilizerd by Pakistan air force .PAF destroyed all the armered core attacking the lahore and Sialkot.destroing almost all the the tanks in Sialkot more then 400 tanks at chawinda.Due these havy loses lal bahdur shastri immediately wnent to UNO and requested for seazfire.
It is on the record.
@@rasheedahmed9022my friend your frustration can not change history take some time and read the Wikipedia all your doubts will be crystal clear Jai hind.
@@devikakarmakar99 Ask China! Not some "source" like the intellectual whore called "Wikipedia!"
Pata nahi kaya bol raha hai ye bandah, english ki bhi tangai tori aur urdu kibhi