Great information guys. I'm about to buy an air rifle and couldn't decide on the caliber. Most youtubers seem to prefer the .22 but you're the first to break it down in a more scientific manner. Great jobs guys!!
Hi both. I've stumbled across your channel having recently got back into air rifle shooting following a break of about 5 yrs. It's a very interesting topic with regards to hunting and calibre choice. Like many shooters I toyed with .177, .20 & .22 and owned at one point 16 rifles (spring and PCP) I had Three Theoben MFRs one in each calibre. I took all three to the farm and played with them extensively over a summer season shooting all the usual farmyard quarry. I was lucky that none of these rifles was particularly pellet fussy. In a nutshell I found that the .22 shooting 16 gr AA fields was accurate and lethal, however range estimation was crucial for me and I spent more time making calculations in my head than taking actual shots. The .20 was pointless IMO, pellet weights, trajectory etc were similar to shooting lighter weight .22 rounds with a lot less choice in pellet brands etc. My .177 quickly became my rifle of choice. I could shoot without thinking about hold over and practiced with AA fields at 8.4gn, Bis Mags at 10.6 and a pellet I purchased from one the forum guys, Exterminators I think the were called (later Logun took the design and called them penetrators) at 9.5 grains. All three were super accurate right out to 50 yards rested. They also gave me the ability to have a heavy .177 pellet capable of great knock down whilst still flying flat as well as the lighter even flatter trajectory of the AA, JSB variants. A hole in the head is a hole in the head regardless of how big it is and the result is the same! .177 holds enough downrange energy @ sub 12ft/lb to take everything I was tasked to shoot. .177 is easier (for me) to be accurate enough for humane dispatch. Great videos BTW
Good and sensible points, love teh .177 Farm Land and .22 Farm Yard conclusion! Made my mind up for my next gun :) still find .177 pellets bloody fiddly though!!!
HW80k in .177 at 18ftlbs using RWS supermags, a heavyweight flathead. I have found this to be the ultimate hunting rifle. Very interesting and enjoyable series, thanks so much for taking the time.
Excellent series! And cheers from a long-time true believer in .177 as a hunting caliber! I started hunting with air rifles over three decades ago upon receipt of a .20 Beeman R-1 back when the model was introduced to the market in the USA. That put out 17 ft/lb at the muzzle and it dropped rabbits and squirrels as if hit by Thor's hammer, out to 50 yards, with no problem. I was hardly surprised, as I had bought what was billed at the time as "the most powerful spring-piston air rifle in the world." What was really eye-opening was when I bought a second air rifle about a year later. That was a .177 Webley Omega, running under your U.K. 12 ft/lb FAC limit. I still have that rifle. It shoots 8.44 JSB's to an average velocity of 785 fps for 11.5 foot pounds. At 50 yards, those pellets shot from that rifle are still doing about 590 fps for 6.5 foot pounds of impact energy. That's more than they need to hit with in order to shoot completely through a cottontail rabbit's head. They have enough terminal ballistic clout, even when launched from a sub-12 foot-pound rifle, to theoretically shoot through a rabbit's head out to 75 yards. We didn't have JSB pellets back in 1985 when I bought the Omega but we did have 10.5 grain Beeman Kodiak / H&N Barracudas. Those hit with 7 foot pounds of energy at 50 yards, and they were what I hunted with for years until Crosman came out with their brown-box Premier pellets. Having both of those rifles was educational. The .177 Omega, even running between 11 and 12 ft/lb, shot flat enough on a 40 yard far zero to allow hitting with ease out to 50 yards and slightly beyond. On quarry, at any distance between the muzzle and 50 yards, the Omega didn't kill things any less dead than the 17 ft/lb .20 R-1 did. It was more accurate than the Weirhauch-made Beeman, but not enough for a bunny to notice in the field. What I noticed was how much easier it was to shoot accurately. It was significantly easier to hit with at any range. I like the .177 because I can get a usefully flat trajectory from modest 11 to 12 ft/lb power; a power level at which I find spring-piston rifles easy enough to shoot well, and very pleasant to shoot, as well. That's important because I need the "self contained" aspect of spring-piston power for the hunting I do, as it involves camping for days on end in the midst of California High Desert wilderness, far away from civilization, and I don't have room in my hunting car for tanks and pumps and things to keep a PCP from running out of air over seven to fourteen days of continuous hunting. A more powerful "springer" than my Omega just becomes exponentially more unmanageable and harder for me to hit with as power goes up from your FAC limit. I frankly don't see the point for FAC power in my hunting when my 11.5 ft/lb Omega can already kill rabbits farther than I want to shoot them, and when it already lets me shoot them as far as I want to, which for me is about 50 to 55 yards. But my Omega wouldn't let me do that if I had bought the .22 version, instead. For me, .177 at 11 to 12 ft/lbs has never had a problem killing rabbits and tree squirrels instantly stone-cold dead. Out in California, it is legal to shoot quail and chukar (or red-legged) partridges with air rifles, too, and .177 does the business on them, as well. I can and do hunt turkey with an air rifle there, but I have to use a .20 in order to comply with a minimum caliber regulation. For that, I use a Beeman R-9 / HW-95 running at 15 ft/lb, but if California ever lifts that minimum caliber restriction for turkey, I would likely as not just use .177 on them, too, and my expectation would be clean, humane kills, every time. Nice to see the .177 get some love, for a change. :) Here in the USA, it seems like rabbits and squirrels have become bulletproof based on the current prevailing perceived need for FAC power and .22 or .25 caliber barrels. Meanwhile, I'm still doing my thing very contently with an 11 to 12 ft/lb .177 "springer." Blessings and Tight Groups, J.P.
Hi Jerrold, thanks for taking the time to give us Brits a real take on airgun hunting in the states. Interesting views on your power setting and choices of platform. Myself i love shooting spring and have a lovely tuned Remington and a Walther Century with some endurance based mods fitted. I used the Century for pest control but the shear qty of quarry forced me to go PCP. People at work were asking questions why my left arm was more muscular than my right!!! For research we upped the power in the Century to 17ft/lb for a day and played on with pellets to see what benefit there was. We soon reverted back to 12ft/lb. Little difference up to 15ft/lb and past that very pellet fussy. Keep watching. Were waiting to shoot some targets for a series which follows on from this one. But weather and time this year is hard going.
You're welcome, but mine is a minority view here in the USA and I don't think many are undertaking 3,400 mile round-trip road journeys for the privilege of living rough in the bush and wacking quail, chukar, and rabbit for weeks at a stretch. It is me who should be thanking my fellow shooting sports enthusiasts in the U.K. for your nation's rightful status as the "centre" of the air rifle hunting universe. Without that, and without your FT and HFT games, in particular, I wouldn't be spoiled for choice in efficient .177 pellets as I am, and without them, I wouldn't be able to do what I do in the manner in which I do it. My quality of life would suffer greatly as a result. :) You in the U.K. do have a lot to answer for, though, thanks to giving the world the Sporting Clays game, which has to be the shooting sport equivalent of a bad cocaine habit. My bank account would be in a far healthier state had you clever Brits not invented that most excellent game. ;) Blessings and Tight Groups, J.P. (Who is now subscribed, and awaiting further installments on your channel)
Just discovered you guys on youtube, wow what great video's. I just got my first pcp {Diana Outlaw .177} wanted a AirArms but it just wasn't in my budget. Have had German spring guns for 25 years, always considered the British the experts on all things in the airgun world and these video's confirm it, thank you so much for taking the time to do them, Kevin in Colorado USA
Thanks Guys, I have always used .22 in the past. Coming back in and my young son is keen to have a go I’m definitely going .177 now. These videos were really informative and well put together. 😎👍
Very informative videos I’ve always used.22,on this information I am going to purchase and try a .177,for my hunting,I will post my thoughts after I’ve been out in the field.cheers
Nice series lads, Yes I came to the same conclusion in the 80s when FT started, we all turned up with our break barrel .22s and were struggling at longer ranges, my mate however using his .177 HW 35 was doing well and slowly but surely it was the turning point for the calibre war. of course in the old days .177 for feather and .22 for fur was down to penetration with the smaller calibre being better at drilling holes in pigeon. in your tests the .22 groups opened up past a certain range while the .177 stayed true, this is because the larger mass catches too much wind face on and drops below critical speed necessary for true accuracy and the smaller pellet not so much. but when both are FAC the tables turn and .22 is king mimicking the .177 at sub 12 ftlb. so its all about velocity and accuracy at the end of the day and at sub levels .177 is king !..phil.
The larger mass catches more wind? It's the opposite because it has more mass, its harder for the wind to push it off course, there is a bit more surface that catches the wind, but they weight about twice as much and have about 30% more surface area from the side. The fly slower therefor the wind blows longer on .22 pellets. But all their points are only true for restricted airguns.they should at least mention that. You can try to shoot a cannonball with a pistol charge, but of course it won't get good ballistics.
Hi David Moore, we got a notification of your comment...but can't view it here for some unknown reason. To answer the question...yes both sub 12fpe. Regarding FAC...we have still yet to do this and hope in time we can. Thanks for watching.
Great video. I'm from the UK and limited to sub 12ft/ibs. I've come from a .22 background and was looking for a video just like this because i couldn't decide on on a .177 or a .22. I've now made up my mind thanks lads 💪🏻
The cavitation when striking the ballistic gel is a mixture of the round trajectory/spin, and the fpe/speed. The mixture of those causes the round to drag air with it at high force. It's far more noticeable with powder bullets, but it's the same idea. The wound channel will be smaller, less cavitation, because there is less fpe with the pellets.
Outstanding series gents. I started with your pellet testing (7) series and found this one. I'm new to air rifles and I'm 70 years old. I researched quite heavily before I committed to rifle/caliber/pellet so according to this I chose wrong but I'm ok with a break action nitro piston .22. Co2s or PCPs were out of range price wise.It's already a lot of fun because of the preparations I've made in cleaning, accurizing, target box building and I've only shot my Crosman Nitro Venom 4 times ha ha, but I'm good to go with breakin now to see how she levels out. With shooting rifles and pistols my whole life my conclusion on the .22 is the design is lacking, giving us very low ballistic coeffient. It should be made about a third longer with a longer skirt to keep the same weight, but that's a totally different discussion. keep up the great work!
It's a tricky one calibre and initially you may not see the pro's and cons of each cal. But what is certain is there's only thing you can get wrong in shooting...not doing it. I know a guy who only shoots .22 or .25 cal, his reasons are he cant see past 30y, even with a scope, so all his rifles do the job perfectly. Thanks for the comments, keep shooting.
Very good series tho I'd like to know more about pellet types, weights, and FPE for each. Also id like to know if were talking Sub 12fpe or other being as i watch the show from here in America and we normally shoot .22s and up the are far greater than 12fpe's... The last .117 i bought was 18+fpe right out the box for example... All these things make a BIG Difference in your testing...
Both rifles are around the 11.5 ft/lb mark, shooting mid weight (for each calibre) pellets, 8.44gn for .177 and 15.9gn for .22. The pellet of choice were both Daystate Rangemaster Sovereigns as these work at all ranges for the barrels they were used in. Really can't comment on what we call FAC (12ftlb and over) but i know professional pest controllers who swear by .177 in FAC but the .22 is the more common FAC rifle.
Not at the same power setting though which is why we show them both shooting at X10 power. it is true though that you can flatten out a trajectory to a point by reducing scope power on 2nd focal plane scope at the cost of shot placement however the drop off is always more aggressive on .22 past the second zero even using lighter gn pellets.
Thank you guys 🔥🙏🔥. I bought a 177 high powered air rifle and I haven’t opened the box yet. I was thinking about returning it to get a 22 instead but after this video, I’m just gonna keep it. I’ll get a 22 later on
Great video. The cost of ammo has gotten me very interested in air rifles for fun and practice. I have a .177 Gamo, but was considering getting a .22 air rifle as well. I have a few larger centerfire rifles but, with the cost of ammo these days, watching the shells eject is like watching my rifle spit out quarters. It actually gives you buyer's remorse and takes the fun out of it!!! I own a few .22 rimfire rifles. You can get them pretty cheap, with a good ones going for under $300.00 U.S. Decent .22 rimfire target ammo ranges from 5-6 cents U.S. per round. However, the air rifles, while not being too much cheaper than the .22 rimfires, can be WAY more cost-effective in .177 as that ammo comes at a penny-per-pellet! As mentioned, I was looking at .22 air rifles, but THOSE pellets can be upward of 5-cents U.S., so I didn't see the reason why not to just take out a .22 rimfire to the range. You guys really cleared this up in this well-thought-out series. I'm going to buy another .177 air rifle (a repeater), and enjoy that. When I feel like shooting a .22, I'll just take out a rimfire for the same cost as a .22 air rifle. I watched many videos on the subject and you guys were, by far, the best. Liking and subscribing. Thanks!
Cool! Looking forward to it. If you guys ever make your way over to the colonies (specifically New York), give a shout. I'm right outside the city. We can do some shooting- rimfires, centerfire, air guns, whatever. I even have a few decent handguns. If you'd like, we can break them out, too. I'm pretty new to the air rifles, so I can use some tips. Maybe that'll give you some additional incentive to visit NY!
Enjoyed your video, however ideally you should use the same model of rifle in each calibre at the same power output and with the same pellet to be able to draw more accurate conclusions. There is another .177 vs .22 video which uses two HW100s.
x10 for both buddy. This is so that both scopes have their reticules set to true mildot, and target clarity is as close as possible between the two. Yes you can reduce the power on the larger cal to flatten the mil dot bracketing to lower cal references or mapping...but then shot placement starts to become affected at range. Based on this series I now use about x6 on the .22 as the range is 40y max and it my bad weather cal (imo). This almost halves the mildots needed allowing good windage referencing. But again...its only my opinion.
I think you are spot on mate. im on x7 mag on my rm8 .22 and yeah the .22 is best suited for 40yd max, I use it 20-35yds myself. I also have a .177 rm8 and I can stretch the range out a bit more with that, tend to use that for 30-55yds
Really pleased I came across this as a newb about to buy my first air rifle since I was a kid. For some unscientific reasons Ive been stuck on .22 and never a .177. But after quite a bit of research based on the intended use for me its now .177 and HW97K and im off up to Newcastle to get one right now. lol Cheers guys subbed too
Well, there's a whole discussion to be had here, but...entry level would probably be Remington Express, everything else around it feels a bit too rough. For the mid range rifle the Walther Century really stands out. Both i can vouch for. For somewhere in-between that the HW99 is a cracking little rifle and the Walther Terrus isn't that bad either. Upper end of the market i'd go Air Arms TX200 over the HW97 and 77's mainly because i prefer the AA trigger to the Rekord unit. But again the HW's are very good. There's the Diana's if you can live with the weight & balance. Between these and the Century is the Walther LGV and LGU...Excellent rifles!!! For a beginner a well set up Century is a hell of a rifle if you leave the AO on the scope alone. I had a first time shooter on mine last week, and within 1 hour he was reaching clays at 80y and grouping within 1.5" at 40y. But that could have been the coach!
Hi Martyn...welcome to the show...I'm just putting a series plan together to look at this and other basic field shooting techniques to arm viewer with some kind of direction to work to/ from. For now though and not knowing your level of experience...I work somewhere between 35 to 40y as a second zero. this gives round about a 1" kill zone between 8 to 45y. This also makes it easy to manage a shot out to 60y if the occasion allows for it. However...If I couldn't group 10 shots within 1" at 35 to 40y which used to be the case, i'd have come back 10y and zero at 25 to 30y. Ultimately there is no optimum, just what range can you manage/need to cover and what type of shooting are you doing i.e. do you need a kill zone limit for pest control or are you just plinking? These factors drive my zero ranges.
Good review, i have the R10 MK2 .22 , gonna get the CLX .177. best of both. Might do a review myself. Cheers guys. Look like you could be doing with some rabbit stew.
In my opinion the RM8 is hard to beat though recently on the varmints I have noticed the build quality is not what it was. Gamos and Hatsans etc are ok but lack that crispness robustness of the mid range guns and within a year I see most people ditch the entry guns and go to AA, HW, Brocock or Daystate etc.
It seems to me that the restrictions on power are the reason the 177 is the winner. If a 22 is traveling at the same speed as a 177 I bet the 22 wins, no contest.
After doing a ton of searching, I think .177 may be the best, because it's simply most universal. You can get super heavy pellets that weight as much as a .20 or .22 but other way round not so much.
Excellent fellas. Just getting into this sport and I was undecided on which Calibre. I’m going for .177 , would a heavier grain pellet maybe work well in .177 for all round shooting, be it target, plinking, hunting.
Thanks and heavy pellets will depend on your rifle. I know S400s that shoot heavy pellets well and other S400s that shoot them like a shotgun...mine included. I personally go 8-9gn (usually 8.44) but this is what all my 177 rifles shoot best with.
Brilliant lads cheers but I got to say I've had a few 22 in my time what I thought was greate but I have just purchased an hw100 in 177 an is out dose the 22 every time kepp up the good work lads thanks.
Thanks for video, I think your bang on with uses. I've tried both and have both. I find myself doing more farmyard type shooting so the .22 is current preference. Smacks the rats and pigeons out of the rafters with more success. I've found the .177 to often pass through and not provide a clean kill. I think for rabbits at range it would have to be the .177 , however it seems lacking when you've also got a rimfire in the cabinet. In an exposed area with wind, air rifles at longer range are very difficult. There's just not enough energy to remain accurate.
I've been trying to decide whether or not to go with 1.77 or .22 for a new JSA Raptor. Everyone in my FB group is saying .22 or .257, but I can't help but feel that a flatter trajectory is absolutely going to be better to work with than comping for wind. Your video provides hard data in the face of what I expect is conjecture based on bias.
Would groups opening in the wind , would that be because the .22 is running at a much lower speed. IE if you have identical speed do you then have have as much differentials in group.
We need to do this properly on the channel rather than comment, however i would say the surface area is more an issue, but speed is a factor. The separation of air around the pellet in flight will be more pronounced and the pellet will catch the wind more due its size, and slightly slower speed. These factors most certainly will cause the tail to be a bit skittish and try to redirect the pellet. The twist rate of the barrel is also a factor at longer ranges. A 1:9 vs a 1:16 would also play a big part at range. For example a .177 FX smoothtwist can reach out accurately to .22LR ranges these days due to the slow twist rates benefiting the diabolo pellet design. It won't drop a bunny but it is accurate. Its not something that is easy to answer in text but I am working on a script to help show you what the above means.
17HMR...seriously though...there not really shots I take, but on rabbit for example the heart and lungs are up front with some ribs for protection and little meat. So...say under 35y, front facing, sitting up, then yes .22 probably has a greater edge as .177 has a risk of deflection, .22 would just smash through that well placed rib. Same shot at 60y? Neither Imo...but as always its just my opinion.
Great video very informative how ever I did ballistics myself on the 2 calibers the .22 had more energy on target 🎯 (retained more energy down range because it’s heavier ) it’s physics If you throw 2 rocks one being heavier than the other , the heavier rock will hit with more energy , also travels longer because of the energy retention.The 177 losses energy faster especially down range ! To keep it simple I like the more powerful one more muzzle energy = more power I found this to be the .22 both will do the job on small game but when you watch videos you can clearly see that the .22 has more knockdown power ! The flatter trajectory argument is somewhat insignificant for me because with the right scope and depending on the type of rifle you can sight it in up to 100 yards for sure the .22 has better ballistics than the .177 including penetration. I will post videos soon thank you for this awesome videos guys safe shooting 👍🏻
Glad i opted for a hw100 in 177 litterally less than 20 days old been out woth it 3 times and love it i had all this a while ago the 177vs22 debate personaly i want to try shoot as far out as i can why be limited to 30-35 yards
I don't think you guys ever mentioned any specific velocities. So given the advantage the .177 had, I'm guessing you were working with sub 12 ft/lb rifles? Because given equal energies, I can see the .177 would have quite a few advantages. But in the U.S. we don't have energy limits, so if you buy two of the same rifle, that have the same power plant but one is in .177 and the other is in. 22, the .22 usually has a little more energy, so the .177 will have less of a velocity advantage. For example, I have 2 Gamo Swarms, identical but one is in .177 and one is .22. The .177 shoots non-lead 6.64 grain pellets at 1000 fps. The .22 shoots non-lead 9.57 grain at 920 fps, giving it over a 3 ft/lb advantage and not much lower velocity (initially although it will slow more quickly). With Crosman Premier lead pellets, the .177 has about a 220 fps advantage, but in lead the .22 has higher SD so it will slow down less rapidly. So, great data and great videos, but I don't think it applies here in the U.S. -Cheers
I’ve just brought the fx impact new twist barrel in 177 and .22 and the .22 wins hands down groups better at 60 yards if there is any wind the 177 is affected a lot 177 for paper.22 for hunting.great video lads
There's been a 3 fellas on the bench at Barby since we did this series with the FX smoothtwist barrels. And yes they are much better suited to .22. They can reach out significantly further than a rifled barrel and hold groups which makes them a bit of exception to the series. Generally 90y is about it for rifled barrels that i have seen to hit a 2" group and that's only the .177's using 10gn pellets. However the FX boys are getting 120y to 130y with heavy pellets in .22. Interestingly the one fella with the Impact in both cals says the .177 struggles at all ranges in comparison to his .22.
I shoot a .177 and a .22 both at 238m/s (JSB Exact and Exact Jumbo). Clearly the FAC .22 is the better performing pellet under such circumstances. It's got twice the energy of the .177. But when restricted to 12 fp i'd shoot .177 all the time, for paper, fur and feather. In HFT and FT competition (with 12 fp, out to 42m and 50m respectively) almost everyone shoots .177. I think that says how much easier it is to be accurate with this caliber at that power level.
With restricted power here in u.k. it's all about headshots and in my humble opinion .177 is travelling faster and truer so is going to be the most likely to hit the right spot.
This is only true for restricted airguns. When i look at the weihrauch page, the 5,5mm version has 10 joule more at the muzzle and the same shot count as the 4,5mm. In 16,3 Joule, the energy is the same, so the ballistics of the 5,5 are worse, but the 5,5 has a shot count of 75 and the 4,5 only 50 (edit: i looked up the wrong barrel lenght, it should be more like 140 for the 5,5 and 110 for the 4,5mm). In an uncastrated airgun, 5,5 doesn't drop much worse then 4,5,, has the same amount of shots in one 200ml zylinder, is less affected by wind and shot placement isn't as crucial, it will also sustain more energy over distance.I think you should mention, that your conclusion only applies to british airguns. Would you prefer 4,5 in an FAC rifle?
Like your opinion, I’m a firm believer that.177 is the most versatile. I live in the desert southwest USA with continuous changing winds and no limit on power of air rifles. Have taken coyotes and foxes @ < 40 yards with a clean kill using Crosman 10.5 gr and JSB 13.43 delivering 18-20 fpe. Both will do a dime group @35 yards with a Diana Stormrider!! Inexpensive rifle but does the job.
My weirauch hw100 t in .20 is accurate as you would like it too be , using the daystate rangemaster sovereign at 13.7 grn , you can ( as you know ) get a .22 pellet LIGHTER then that , like the falcon accuracy @ 13.4 (:or there abouts ) idealistically for a .20 the weight should be around 11 - 12 grains , putting it heaver then a .177 and lighter then a .22 with the standard pellets available in the shops . That said , im happy enough with the ones I mentioned above
Good job guys... finally people are now starting to realize that a .177 is a viable choice (and not a training, sub-capable, kids, Daisy BB gun).. I shoot .177 JSB 16.2 grains at 925 fps (equals 30.8 fpe).. close shots or long shots - they drop dead.. Shooting hole in hole at 25 yards, 3/8 inch groups at 50 yards, sub 1 inch at 100 yards speaks volumes on the accuracy.. also not having to worry about exact distances and mildots being extremely critical - can be a couple yards off and still hit the mark.. Success rate increased dramatically..
Oh my god this video has just made me realise i need a .177!! I was chasing after a .22 thinking that was best calibre but i dont fancy idea of a 50 yard plus shot being a lottery using upto 6 mill dots. If all i am hunting is say rabbits and pigeons/squirrels is the .177 what i need then? Id say most my shots will be around the 40-70 yards mark max. I don't think as a novice i would be confident using more than say 3 mil dots to hit a shot
Totally agree lads but put a light weight .22 pellet into a full power .22 rifle will add 5/10 yds to your .22 cal`ranges. My HW 80 MK1 .22 is "destroying" vermin to 35/40 yards very humanely at sub 12 level.My .177 rifles, again using the light weight pellets take over from 35 yds to 50 yds, or a tad more, with ease. Great series lads , all done,
With .177 you have to take head shots for a clean kill , 22 if it hits lower its going to kill , last shot with .22 58 yards Rabbit Bisley long range 14 gr .
Hi Peter - They chrono at 11.5 for .177 and about 11.4 for .22. The anomaly comes from the trajectories, which were matched and set so the peak (T-Max) never went higher than half a mil dot at x10 power. This made the drop off steep and early. Got a follow on series from this which should be starting to get filmed in the next few weeks.
I have Sub 12 FPE rifles in both calibres, I don't even touch my .22 anymore, which is a shame because it's a nice rifle .177 kills just fine and it's miles easier to use in the field, I also believe the higher speed does more localised damage, but for sure your shot placement is more critical in .177 as you need to be sure you're hitting the brain box exactly in the right place. Where as .22 is more forgiving the concussion of being hit in the head (just about anywhere) with .22 sub 12 under 35 yards is lights out straight away.
Pellet design plays into expansion and penetration... What many have found is that pellets of similar design, the wound channel was not much different (penny size for the .22 vs dime size for the .177, with the .22 being slightly larger but not significantly larger), penetration has always favored the .177.. To debunk old claims that pass through shots are not preferred is just not true in real life humane kills, they claimed that the bullet/pellet performed the best when giving up all it's energy inside the animal with no pass through, the real life fact being that if the bullet/pellet can't pass through then there may not have been enough energy to humanely kill.. Long range elk hunters found that a pass through at 500 yards killed quicker,, and this holds true for any animal at any range.. the massive air flow (harmonic shock - similar to the disruption of air at the sound barrier) through an animal caused a lot of trauma on soft tissue of the vitals, without having massive entry and exit wounds.. You have to consider that behind every bullet/pellet there is a vacuum of air, the bullet/pellet passes through ripping some vital tissue loose and the vacuum pulls that loose tissue out the exit hole.. This is evident when you see blood and tissue on the ground for several feet on the other side of the animal after a pass through.. I prefer pass through shots every time.. I have shot deer at 15 yards with 175 grain 7mm Rem Mag with an entry and exit hole no bigger than your finger tip, but found lung and heart tissue 8 -10 feet beyond the exit hole (deer dropped dead in tracks), upon field dressing found that the lungs and heart resembled cottage cheese (total disruption of the vitals caused by air shock and vacuum).. The question is - do you want a pellet to enter and stop leaning against the heart or lungs or brain or do you want it to go completely through pulling disrupted vital tissue out the other side.. I rather see vital tissue splattered on the ground on the other side of the animal..
Great information guys. I'm about to buy an air rifle and couldn't decide on the caliber. Most youtubers seem to prefer the .22 but you're the first to break it down in a more scientific manner. Great jobs guys!!
Thank you just made my mind up for me
. 177 it is 👍
Without a doubt the best 177 vs 22 video on youtube
These lads know what they are talking about, full stop
Very informative, thorough and entertaining. Well done chaps, an excellent video series.
Cheers lads, this has been fascinating. Loving the science. Thank you for helping me avoid making a costly mistake on my next pcp! 👍
Excellent set of videos, thank you!
Hi both. I've stumbled across your channel having recently got back into air rifle shooting following a break of about 5 yrs. It's a very interesting topic with regards to hunting and calibre choice.
Like many shooters I toyed with .177, .20 & .22 and owned at one point 16 rifles (spring and PCP) I had Three Theoben MFRs one in each calibre. I took all three to the farm and played with them extensively over a summer season shooting all the usual farmyard quarry. I was lucky that none of these rifles was particularly pellet fussy. In a nutshell I found that the .22 shooting 16 gr AA fields was accurate and lethal, however range estimation was crucial for me and I spent more time making calculations in my head than taking actual shots. The .20 was pointless IMO, pellet weights, trajectory etc were similar to shooting lighter weight .22 rounds with a lot less choice in pellet brands etc. My .177 quickly became my rifle of choice. I could shoot without thinking about hold over and practiced with AA fields at 8.4gn, Bis Mags at 10.6 and a pellet I purchased from one the forum guys, Exterminators I think the were called (later Logun took the design and called them penetrators) at 9.5 grains. All three were super accurate right out to 50 yards rested. They also gave me the ability to have a heavy .177 pellet capable of great knock down whilst still flying flat as well as the lighter even flatter trajectory of the AA, JSB variants.
A hole in the head is a hole in the head regardless of how big it is and the result is the same! .177 holds enough downrange energy @ sub 12ft/lb to take everything I was tasked to shoot. .177 is easier (for me) to be accurate enough for humane dispatch.
Great videos BTW
Good and sensible points, love teh .177 Farm Land and .22 Farm Yard conclusion! Made my mind up for my next gun :) still find .177 pellets bloody fiddly though!!!
I just bought a pellet pen
HW80k in .177 at 18ftlbs using RWS supermags, a heavyweight flathead. I have found this to be the ultimate hunting rifle. Very interesting and enjoyable series, thanks so much for taking the time.
Excellent series! And cheers from a long-time true believer in .177 as a hunting caliber!
I started hunting with air rifles over three decades ago upon receipt of a .20 Beeman R-1 back when the model was introduced to the market in the USA. That put out 17 ft/lb at the muzzle and it dropped rabbits and squirrels as if hit by Thor's hammer, out to 50 yards, with no problem. I was hardly surprised, as I had bought what was billed at the time as "the most powerful spring-piston air rifle in the world."
What was really eye-opening was when I bought a second air rifle about a year later. That was a .177 Webley Omega, running under your U.K. 12 ft/lb FAC limit. I still have that rifle. It shoots 8.44 JSB's to an average velocity of 785 fps for 11.5 foot pounds. At 50 yards, those pellets shot from that rifle are still doing about 590 fps for 6.5 foot pounds of impact energy. That's more than they need to hit with in order to shoot completely through a cottontail rabbit's head. They have enough terminal ballistic clout, even when launched from a sub-12 foot-pound rifle, to theoretically shoot through a rabbit's head out to 75 yards. We didn't have JSB pellets back in 1985 when I bought the Omega but we did have 10.5 grain Beeman Kodiak / H&N Barracudas. Those hit with 7 foot pounds of energy at 50 yards, and they were what I hunted with for years until Crosman came out with their brown-box Premier pellets.
Having both of those rifles was educational. The .177 Omega, even running between 11 and 12 ft/lb, shot flat enough on a 40 yard far zero to allow hitting with ease out to 50 yards and slightly beyond. On quarry, at any distance between the muzzle and 50 yards, the Omega didn't kill things any less dead than the 17 ft/lb .20 R-1 did. It was more accurate than the Weirhauch-made Beeman, but not enough for a bunny to notice in the field. What I noticed was how much easier it was to shoot accurately. It was significantly easier to hit with at any range.
I like the .177 because I can get a usefully flat trajectory from modest 11 to 12 ft/lb power; a power level at which I find spring-piston rifles easy enough to shoot well, and very pleasant to shoot, as well. That's important because I need the "self contained" aspect of spring-piston power for the hunting I do, as it involves camping for days on end in the midst of California High Desert wilderness, far away from civilization, and I don't have room in my hunting car for tanks and pumps and things to keep a PCP from running out of air over seven to fourteen days of continuous hunting. A more powerful "springer" than my Omega just becomes exponentially more unmanageable and harder for me to hit with as power goes up from your FAC limit. I frankly don't see the point for FAC power in my hunting when my 11.5 ft/lb Omega can already kill rabbits farther than I want to shoot them, and when it already lets me shoot them as far as I want to, which for me is about 50 to 55 yards. But my Omega wouldn't let me do that if I had bought the .22 version, instead.
For me, .177 at 11 to 12 ft/lbs has never had a problem killing rabbits and tree squirrels instantly stone-cold dead. Out in California, it is legal to shoot quail and chukar (or red-legged) partridges with air rifles, too, and .177 does the business on them, as well. I can and do hunt turkey with an air rifle there, but I have to use a .20 in order to comply with a minimum caliber regulation. For that, I use a Beeman R-9 / HW-95 running at 15 ft/lb, but if California ever lifts that minimum caliber restriction for turkey, I would likely as not just use .177 on them, too, and my expectation would be clean, humane kills, every time.
Nice to see the .177 get some love, for a change. :) Here in the USA, it seems like rabbits and squirrels have become bulletproof based on the current prevailing perceived need for FAC power and .22 or .25 caliber barrels. Meanwhile, I'm still doing my thing very contently with an 11 to 12 ft/lb .177 "springer."
Blessings and Tight Groups,
J.P.
Hi Jerrold, thanks for taking the time to give us Brits a real take on airgun hunting in the states. Interesting views on your power setting and choices of platform. Myself i love shooting spring and have a lovely tuned Remington and a Walther Century with some endurance based mods fitted. I used the Century for pest control but the shear qty of quarry forced me to go PCP. People at work were asking questions why my left arm was more muscular than my right!!! For research we upped the power in the Century to 17ft/lb for a day and played on with pellets to see what benefit there was. We soon reverted back to 12ft/lb. Little difference up to 15ft/lb and past that very pellet fussy. Keep watching. Were waiting to shoot some targets for a series which follows on from this one. But weather and time this year is hard going.
You're welcome, but mine is a minority view here in the USA and I don't think many are undertaking 3,400 mile round-trip road journeys for the privilege of living rough in the bush and wacking quail, chukar, and rabbit for weeks at a stretch.
It is me who should be thanking my fellow shooting sports enthusiasts in the U.K. for your nation's rightful status as the "centre" of the air rifle hunting universe. Without that, and without your FT and HFT games, in particular, I wouldn't be spoiled for choice in efficient .177 pellets as I am, and without them, I wouldn't be able to do what I do in the manner in which I do it. My quality of life would suffer greatly as a result. :)
You in the U.K. do have a lot to answer for, though, thanks to giving the world the Sporting Clays game, which has to be the shooting sport equivalent of a bad cocaine habit. My bank account would be in a far healthier state had you clever Brits not invented that most excellent game. ;)
Blessings and Tight Groups,
J.P.
(Who is now subscribed, and awaiting further installments on your channel)
Brilliant lads a really good insight realistically on the real ballistics of the 2 callibres well done
Very nice series. Much thanks from the USA.
Just discovered you guys on youtube, wow what great video's. I just got my first pcp {Diana Outlaw .177} wanted a AirArms but it just wasn't in my budget. Have had German spring guns for 25 years, always considered the British the experts on all things in the airgun world and these video's confirm it, thank you so much for taking the time to do them, Kevin in Colorado USA
Great series guys and learning all the time from you, many thanks.
Great job guys, keep doing it.
Excellent presentation. Makes real clear sense about the two cals
Thanks, this helped me make up my mind on the subject.
I’ve just stumbled on this channel. Wish I’d found it before. Good info, well presented with no bollocks or self aggrandising! Subbed
Thanks Guys, I have always used .22 in the past. Coming back in and my young son is keen to have a go I’m definitely going .177 now. These videos were really informative and well put together. 😎👍
Thank you gentleman. Very informative. Enjoyed your comparison views
Nice one lads my thoughts exactly .cheers
Just bought another .177 thanks mates
Great comparison!!!
You answered my question I had for your !!!
Thanks
Very informative videos I’ve always used.22,on this information I am going to purchase and try a .177,for my hunting,I will post my thoughts after I’ve been out in the field.cheers
Tremendous work. Thank you
If you weren’t limited to 12 fpe, would all the general statements still hold true?
Nice series lads, Yes I came to the same conclusion in the 80s when FT started, we all turned up with our break barrel .22s and were struggling at longer ranges, my mate however using his .177 HW 35 was doing well and slowly but surely it was the turning point for the calibre war. of course in the old days .177 for feather and .22 for fur was down to penetration with the smaller calibre being better at drilling holes in pigeon. in your tests the .22 groups opened up past a certain range while the .177 stayed true, this is because the larger mass catches too much wind face on and drops below critical speed necessary for true accuracy and the smaller pellet not so much. but when both are FAC the tables turn and .22 is king mimicking the .177 at sub 12 ftlb. so its all about velocity and accuracy at the end of the day and at sub levels .177 is king !..phil.
Thanks for the comment buddy...good to know we do a good job.
Agree at Sub levels but how about testing NON Sub levels for your fans here in America: @ The S&O Channel dudes???!!!
The larger mass catches more wind? It's the opposite because it has more mass, its harder for the wind to push it off course, there is a bit more surface that catches the wind, but they weight about twice as much and have about 30% more surface area from the side. The fly slower therefor the wind blows longer on .22 pellets. But all their points are only true for restricted airguns.they should at least mention that. You can try to shoot a cannonball with a pistol charge, but of course it won't get good ballistics.
Hi David Moore, we got a notification of your comment...but can't view it here for some unknown reason. To answer the question...yes both sub 12fpe. Regarding FAC...we have still yet to do this and hope in time we can. Thanks for watching.
Love your videos guys, keep them coming please!
Great video. I'm from the UK and limited to sub 12ft/ibs. I've come from a .22 background and was looking for a video just like this because i couldn't decide on on a .177 or a .22. I've now made up my mind thanks lads 💪🏻
thank you sooooo much for the video
Interesting cheers lads
The cavitation when striking the ballistic gel is a mixture of the round trajectory/spin, and the fpe/speed. The mixture of those causes the round to drag air with it at high force. It's far more noticeable with powder bullets, but it's the same idea. The wound channel will be smaller, less cavitation, because there is less fpe with the pellets.
Liked that alot, very interesting.
Outstanding series gents. I started with your pellet testing (7) series and found this one. I'm new to air rifles and I'm 70 years old. I researched quite heavily before I committed to rifle/caliber/pellet so according to this I chose wrong but I'm ok with a break action nitro piston .22. Co2s or PCPs were out of range price wise.It's already a lot of fun because of the preparations I've made in cleaning, accurizing, target box building and I've only shot my Crosman Nitro Venom 4 times ha ha, but I'm good to go with breakin now to see how she levels out. With shooting rifles and pistols my whole life my conclusion on the .22 is the design is lacking, giving us very low ballistic coeffient. It should be made about a third longer with a longer skirt to keep the same weight, but that's a totally different discussion. keep up the great work!
It's a tricky one calibre and initially you may not see the pro's and cons of each cal. But what is certain is there's only thing you can get wrong in shooting...not doing it. I know a guy who only shoots .22 or .25 cal, his reasons are he cant see past 30y, even with a scope, so all his rifles do the job perfectly. Thanks for the comments, keep shooting.
Thank you
Very good series tho I'd like to know more about pellet types, weights, and FPE for each. Also id like to know if were talking Sub 12fpe or other being as i watch the show from here in America and we normally shoot .22s and up the are far greater than 12fpe's... The last .117 i bought was 18+fpe right out the box for example... All these things make a BIG Difference in your testing...
Both rifles are around the 11.5 ft/lb mark, shooting mid weight (for each calibre) pellets, 8.44gn for .177 and 15.9gn for .22. The pellet of choice were both Daystate Rangemaster Sovereigns as these work at all ranges for the barrels they were used in. Really can't comment on what we call FAC (12ftlb and over) but i know professional pest controllers who swear by .177 in FAC but the .22 is the more common FAC rifle.
The drop off varies with the different magnification you use on your scope .
Not at the same power setting though which is why we show them both shooting at X10 power. it is true though that you can flatten out a trajectory to a point by reducing scope power on 2nd focal plane scope at the cost of shot placement however the drop off is always more aggressive on .22 past the second zero even using lighter gn pellets.
Great info guys,I have a TX200 .177 and going to buy a Prosport in .177. Sold my HW97 .22 as the TX blows it out of the water
Thank you guys 🔥🙏🔥. I bought a 177 high powered air rifle and I haven’t opened the box yet. I was thinking about returning it to get a 22 instead but after this video, I’m just gonna keep it. I’ll get a 22 later on
Was it a scottish thistle you sat on
keep doing what youre doing lads , i enjoy your tests and the results.
Thanks so much Gary...we will.
but ya gotta test some .20 cal stuff . You will be surprised .
enjoyed that.
Great video. The cost of ammo has gotten me very interested in air rifles for fun and practice. I have a .177 Gamo, but was considering getting a .22 air rifle as well. I have a few larger centerfire rifles but, with the cost of ammo these days, watching the shells eject is like watching my rifle spit out quarters. It actually gives you buyer's remorse and takes the fun out of it!!! I own a few .22 rimfire rifles. You can get them pretty cheap, with a good ones going for under $300.00 U.S. Decent .22 rimfire target ammo ranges from 5-6 cents U.S. per round. However, the air rifles, while not being too much cheaper than the .22 rimfires, can be WAY more cost-effective in .177 as that ammo comes at a penny-per-pellet! As mentioned, I was looking at .22 air rifles, but THOSE pellets can be upward of 5-cents U.S., so I didn't see the reason why not to just take out a .22 rimfire to the range. You guys really cleared this up in this well-thought-out series. I'm going to buy another .177 air rifle (a repeater), and enjoy that. When I feel like shooting a .22, I'll just take out a rimfire for the same cost as a .22 air rifle. I watched many videos on the subject and you guys were, by far, the best. Liking and subscribing. Thanks!
That's great feedback Drew B thanks. We are looking at taking that series one step further in the new year. Stay Tuned
Cool! Looking forward to it. If you guys ever make your way over to the colonies (specifically New York), give a shout. I'm right outside the city. We can do some shooting- rimfires, centerfire, air guns, whatever. I even have a few decent handguns. If you'd like, we can break them out, too. I'm pretty new to the air rifles, so I can use some tips. Maybe that'll give you some additional incentive to visit NY!
Enjoyed your video, however ideally you should use the same model of rifle in each calibre at the same power output and with the same pellet to be able to draw more accurate conclusions. There is another .177 vs .22 video which uses two HW100s.
I take it that you are using 12 lb rifles. Would it be the same for fac rifles?
Thank you getting new pcp rifle today got to be 177 for me 😁
so from the mil-dots you state between the two calibers, id say you were on about 7-8x magnification?
x10 for both buddy. This is so that both scopes have their reticules set to true mildot, and target clarity is as close as possible between the two. Yes you can reduce the power on the larger cal to flatten the mil dot bracketing to lower cal references or mapping...but then shot placement starts to become affected at range. Based on this series I now use about x6 on the .22 as the range is 40y max and it my bad weather cal (imo). This almost halves the mildots needed allowing good windage referencing. But again...its only my opinion.
I think you are spot on mate. im on x7 mag on my rm8 .22 and yeah the .22 is best suited for 40yd max, I use it 20-35yds myself. I also have a .177 rm8 and I can stretch the range out a bit more with that, tend to use that for 30-55yds
Really pleased I came across this as a newb about to buy my first air rifle since I was a kid. For some unscientific reasons Ive been stuck on .22 and never a .177. But after quite a bit of research based on the intended use for me its now .177 and HW97K and im off up to Newcastle to get one right now. lol Cheers guys subbed too
What would be you choice for a .177 spring gun. I really like the HW line but what would yours be.
Well, there's a whole discussion to be had here, but...entry level would probably be Remington Express, everything else around it feels a bit too rough. For the mid range rifle the Walther Century really stands out. Both i can vouch for. For somewhere in-between that the HW99 is a cracking little rifle and the Walther Terrus isn't that bad either. Upper end of the market i'd go Air Arms TX200 over the HW97 and 77's mainly because i prefer the AA trigger to the Rekord unit. But again the HW's are very good. There's the Diana's if you can live with the weight & balance. Between these and the Century is the Walther LGV and LGU...Excellent rifles!!! For a beginner a well set up Century is a hell of a rifle if you leave the AO on the scope alone. I had a first time shooter on mine last week, and within 1 hour he was reaching clays at 80y and grouping within 1.5" at 40y. But that could have been the coach!
Hi guys can you advise on the optimum zero distance for a .177 , keep up the cracking reviews
Hi Martyn...welcome to the show...I'm just putting a series plan together to look at this and other basic field shooting techniques to arm viewer with some kind of direction to work to/ from. For now though and not knowing your level of experience...I work somewhere between 35 to 40y as a second zero. this gives round about a 1" kill zone between 8 to 45y. This also makes it easy to manage a shot out to 60y if the occasion allows for it. However...If I couldn't group 10 shots within 1" at 35 to 40y which used to be the case, i'd have come back 10y and zero at 25 to 30y. Ultimately there is no optimum, just what range can you manage/need to cover and what type of shooting are you doing i.e. do you need a kill zone limit for pest control or are you just plinking? These factors drive my zero ranges.
Shooting & Outdoors Channel
Zeroed in at 30 yards got two full Hw110 mags covered by 10 pence. Happy with that.
Good review, i have the R10 MK2 .22 , gonna get the CLX .177. best of both. Might do a review myself. Cheers guys. Look like you could be doing with some rabbit stew.
Whats the best value 177 pcp...was thinking about a gamo cyote
In my opinion the RM8 is hard to beat though recently on the varmints I have noticed the build quality is not what it was. Gamos and Hatsans etc are ok but lack that crispness robustness of the mid range guns and within a year I see most people ditch the entry guns and go to AA, HW, Brocock or Daystate etc.
Watched all three episodes, very informative. Thank you. BTW which pellets you are using for .177.
We used Daystates Rangemaster Sovereign for both Cal's. Glad you enjoyed the series we are still working on series 3
what speed and weight were both of those pellets?
It seems to me that the restrictions on power are the reason the 177 is the winner. If a 22 is traveling at the same speed as a 177 I bet the 22 wins, no contest.
After doing a ton of searching, I think .177 may be the best, because it's simply most universal. You can get super heavy pellets that weight as much as a .20 or .22 but other way round not so much.
Excellent fellas. Just getting into this sport and I was undecided on which Calibre. I’m going for .177 , would a heavier grain pellet maybe work well in .177 for all round shooting, be it target, plinking, hunting.
Thanks and heavy pellets will depend on your rifle. I know S400s that shoot heavy pellets well and other S400s that shoot them like a shotgun...mine included. I personally go 8-9gn (usually 8.44) but this is what all my 177 rifles shoot best with.
What are the fpe on both rifles?
11.5 fpe mean over 10 shots.
Brilliant lads cheers but I got to say I've had a few 22 in my time what I thought was greate but I have just purchased an hw100 in 177 an is out dose the 22 every time kepp up the good work lads thanks.
Always had a .22, but you've talked me into a .177 for my next rifle
Thanks,
Thanks for video, I think your bang on with uses. I've tried both and have both. I find myself doing more farmyard type shooting so the .22 is current preference. Smacks the rats and pigeons out of the rafters with more success. I've found the .177 to often pass through and not provide a clean kill. I think for rabbits at range it would have to be the .177 , however it seems lacking when you've also got a rimfire in the cabinet. In an exposed area with wind, air rifles at longer range are very difficult. There's just not enough energy to remain accurate.
I've been trying to decide whether or not to go with 1.77 or .22 for a new JSA Raptor. Everyone in my FB group is saying .22 or .257, but I can't help but feel that a flatter trajectory is absolutely going to be better to work with than comping for wind. Your video provides hard data in the face of what I expect is conjecture based on bias.
Hi Robbie...in the UK we have limited (off licence) and unlimited (on licence) airguns. These videos look at limited airguns (
Would groups opening in the wind , would that be because the .22 is running at a much lower speed. IE if you have identical speed do you then have have as much differentials in group.
We need to do this properly on the channel rather than comment, however i would say the surface area is more an issue, but speed is a factor. The separation of air around the pellet in flight will be more pronounced and the pellet will catch the wind more due its size, and slightly slower speed. These factors most certainly will cause the tail to be a bit skittish and try to redirect the pellet. The twist rate of the barrel is also a factor at longer ranges. A 1:9 vs a 1:16 would also play a big part at range. For example a .177 FX smoothtwist can reach out accurately to .22LR ranges these days due to the slow twist rates benefiting the diabolo pellet design. It won't drop a bunny but it is accurate. Its not something that is easy to answer in text but I am working on a script to help show you what the above means.
Your right in what your saying, however, tell me your thoughts on heart & lung shots, because if I was gonna take one then I'd prefer it to be in .22
17HMR...seriously though...there not really shots I take, but on rabbit for example the heart and lungs are up front with some ribs for protection and little meat. So...say under 35y, front facing, sitting up, then yes .22 probably has a greater edge as .177 has a risk of deflection, .22 would just smash through that well placed rib. Same shot at 60y? Neither Imo...but as always its just my opinion.
Great video very informative how ever I did ballistics myself on the 2 calibers the .22 had more energy on target 🎯 (retained more energy down range because it’s heavier ) it’s physics If you throw 2 rocks one being heavier than the other , the heavier rock will hit with more energy , also travels longer because of the energy retention.The 177 losses energy faster especially down range ! To keep it simple I like the more powerful one more muzzle energy = more power I found this to be the .22 both will do the job on small game but when you watch videos you can clearly see that the .22 has more knockdown power ! The flatter trajectory argument is somewhat insignificant for me because with the right scope and depending on the type of rifle you can sight it in up to 100 yards for sure the .22 has better ballistics than the .177 including penetration. I will post videos soon thank you for this awesome videos guys safe shooting 👍🏻
Glad i opted for a hw100 in 177 litterally less than 20 days old been out woth it 3 times and love it i had all this a while ago the 177vs22 debate personaly i want to try shoot as far out as i can why be limited to 30-35 yards
And I just sold my hw100 in 177 and purchased another in .22 lol.
Folly and deep joy
But most of my shooting is under 35 yards
I don't think you guys ever mentioned any specific velocities. So given the advantage the .177 had, I'm guessing you were working with sub 12 ft/lb rifles? Because given equal energies, I can see the .177 would have quite a few advantages. But in the U.S. we don't have energy limits, so if you buy two of the same rifle, that have the same power plant but one is in .177 and the other is in. 22, the .22 usually has a little more energy, so the .177 will have less of a velocity advantage. For example, I have 2 Gamo Swarms, identical but one is in .177 and one is .22. The .177 shoots non-lead 6.64 grain pellets at 1000 fps. The .22 shoots non-lead 9.57 grain at 920 fps, giving it over a 3 ft/lb advantage and not much lower velocity (initially although it will slow more quickly). With Crosman Premier lead pellets, the .177 has about a 220 fps advantage, but in lead the .22 has higher SD so it will slow down less rapidly. So, great data and great videos, but I don't think it applies here in the U.S. -Cheers
I’ve just brought the fx impact new twist barrel in 177 and .22 and the .22 wins hands down groups better at 60 yards if there is any wind the 177 is affected a lot 177 for paper.22 for hunting.great video lads
There's been a 3 fellas on the bench at Barby since we did this series with the FX smoothtwist barrels. And yes they are much better suited to .22. They can reach out significantly further than a rifled barrel and hold groups which makes them a bit of exception to the series. Generally 90y is about it for rifled barrels that i have seen to hit a 2" group and that's only the .177's using 10gn pellets. However the FX boys are getting 120y to 130y with heavy pellets in .22. Interestingly the one fella with the Impact in both cals says the .177 struggles at all ranges in comparison to his .22.
It definitely takes more pressure to lob a .22 pellet. I assume if the rifle were appropriately stronger wouldn’t it be the more accurate round?
Have you seen Si Pittaway shooting a .22 out at 50/60 yards? An eye opener :) Ive always shot .22 with great results .
Thank's for the comments Derek.
I shoot a .177 and a .22 both at 238m/s (JSB Exact and Exact Jumbo). Clearly the FAC .22 is the better performing pellet under such circumstances. It's got twice the energy of the .177. But when restricted to 12 fp i'd shoot .177 all the time, for paper, fur and feather. In HFT and FT competition (with 12 fp, out to 42m and 50m respectively) almost everyone shoots .177. I think that says how much easier it is to be accurate with this caliber at that power level.
With restricted power here in u.k. it's all about headshots and in my humble opinion .177 is travelling faster and truer so is going to be the most likely to hit the right spot.
I came to the same conclusion about 45 yrs ago and have shot nothing other than.177 ever since.
This is only true for restricted airguns. When i look at the weihrauch page, the 5,5mm version has 10 joule more at the muzzle and the same shot count as the 4,5mm. In 16,3 Joule, the energy is the same, so the ballistics of the 5,5 are worse, but the 5,5 has a shot count of 75 and the 4,5 only 50 (edit: i looked up the wrong barrel lenght, it should be more like 140 for the 5,5 and 110 for the 4,5mm). In an uncastrated airgun, 5,5 doesn't drop much worse then 4,5,, has the same amount of shots in one 200ml zylinder, is less affected by wind and shot placement isn't as crucial, it will also sustain more energy over distance.I think you should mention, that your conclusion only applies to british airguns.
Would you prefer 4,5 in an FAC rifle?
Gives those bangers and mash a reality if you use those 22s and eat those squirls. Cheers good info brothers...
.20?
GOOD JOB ,I AGREE I CAN CO JUST AS HEAVY WITH MY .177 PCP AS WITH MY .22 PCP BUT I JUST LOVE THE .177 JUST DO THE JOB BETTER ON LONG DISTANCE....
They are both good calibers
Like your opinion, I’m a firm believer that.177 is the most versatile. I live in the desert southwest USA with continuous changing winds and no limit on power of air rifles. Have taken coyotes and foxes @ < 40 yards with a clean kill using Crosman 10.5 gr and JSB 13.43 delivering 18-20 fpe. Both will do a dime group @35 yards with a Diana Stormrider!! Inexpensive rifle but does the job.
My weirauch hw100 t in .20 is accurate as you would like it too be , using the daystate rangemaster sovereign at 13.7 grn , you can ( as you know ) get a .22 pellet LIGHTER then that , like the falcon accuracy @ 13.4 (:or there abouts ) idealistically for a .20 the weight should be around 11 - 12 grains , putting it heaver then a .177 and lighter then a .22 with the standard pellets available in the shops . That said , im happy enough with the ones I mentioned above
Good job guys... finally people are now starting to realize that a .177 is a viable choice (and not a training, sub-capable, kids, Daisy BB gun).. I shoot .177 JSB 16.2 grains at 925 fps (equals 30.8 fpe).. close shots or long shots - they drop dead.. Shooting hole in hole at 25 yards, 3/8 inch groups at 50 yards, sub 1 inch at 100 yards speaks volumes on the accuracy.. also not having to worry about exact distances and mildots being extremely critical - can be a couple yards off and still hit the mark.. Success rate increased dramatically..
Oh my god this video has just made me realise i need a .177!! I was chasing after a .22 thinking that was best calibre but i dont fancy idea of a 50 yard plus shot being a lottery using upto 6 mill dots. If all i am hunting is say rabbits and pigeons/squirrels is the .177 what i need then? Id say most my shots will be around the 40-70 yards mark max. I don't think as a novice i would be confident using more than say 3 mil dots to hit a shot
Well in whole honesty as a novice you shouldn't be past 40 yards
Totally agree lads but put a light weight .22 pellet into a full power .22 rifle will add 5/10 yds to your .22 cal`ranges. My HW 80 MK1 .22 is "destroying" vermin to 35/40 yards very humanely at sub 12 level.My .177 rifles, again using the light weight pellets take over from 35 yds to 50 yds, or a tad more, with ease. Great series lads , all done,
177 for me
With .177 you have to take head shots for a clean kill , 22 if it hits lower its going to kill , last shot with .22 58 yards
Rabbit Bisley long range 14 gr .
I just like to know that the rat a hit with my tuned 12fp .22 at 25 yards isn't even going to realise it is dead once my. 22 does its job.
Think that’s just about cracked it. So .20 it is then! Or is it? 🤔😎
Sounds like the 22 is underpowered..6 mil dots at 60yrds???good video though
Hi Peter - They chrono at 11.5 for .177 and about 11.4 for .22. The anomaly comes from the trajectories, which were matched and set so the peak (T-Max) never went higher than half a mil dot at x10 power. This made the drop off steep and early. Got a follow on series from this which should be starting to get filmed in the next few weeks.
I have Sub 12 FPE rifles in both calibres, I don't even touch my .22 anymore, which is a shame because it's a nice rifle .177 kills just fine and it's miles easier to use in the field, I also believe the higher speed does more localised damage, but for sure your shot placement is more critical in .177 as you need to be sure you're hitting the brain box exactly in the right place.
Where as .22 is more forgiving the concussion of being hit in the head (just about anywhere) with .22 sub 12 under 35 yards is lights out straight away.
.177 cal for sub 12.fpe
.22 cal for fac 👍👍
I shoot my HW 77 k in .177 in sub 12 in windy con´s with JSB 8.44 gr at 50 m and I had 1/2 mil for wind (12 -15 m/h ) !
One sulution 5.0 caliber .......done
Years
"Tom whacked out that bunny." Uhuh.
So its official 177 is better!
Pellet design plays into expansion and penetration... What many have found is that pellets of similar design, the wound channel was not much different (penny size for the .22 vs dime size for the .177, with the .22 being slightly larger but not significantly larger), penetration has always favored the .177.. To debunk old claims that pass through shots are not preferred is just not true in real life humane kills, they claimed that the bullet/pellet performed the best when giving up all it's energy inside the animal with no pass through, the real life fact being that if the bullet/pellet can't pass through then there may not have been enough energy to humanely kill.. Long range elk hunters found that a pass through at 500 yards killed quicker,, and this holds true for any animal at any range.. the massive air flow (harmonic shock - similar to the disruption of air at the sound barrier) through an animal caused a lot of trauma on soft tissue of the vitals, without having massive entry and exit wounds.. You have to consider that behind every bullet/pellet there is a vacuum of air, the bullet/pellet passes through ripping some vital tissue loose and the vacuum pulls that loose tissue out the exit hole.. This is evident when you see blood and tissue on the ground for several feet on the other side of the animal after a pass through.. I prefer pass through shots every time.. I have shot deer at 15 yards with 175 grain 7mm Rem Mag with an entry and exit hole no bigger than your finger tip, but found lung and heart tissue 8 -10 feet beyond the exit hole (deer dropped dead in tracks), upon field dressing found that the lungs and heart resembled cottage cheese (total disruption of the vitals caused by air shock and vacuum).. The question is - do you want a pellet to enter and stop leaning against the heart or lungs or brain or do you want it to go completely through pulling disrupted vital tissue out the other side.. I rather see vital tissue splattered on the ground on the other side of the animal..
Does the guy on the right not know how to shut off his phone? It's obviously more important than your talk.