What creates the BEST OPEN CRUMB? Cold proofing or Room temperature?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- In this experiment I will show you what makes the best open crumb, cold proofing in the fridge or simply proofing at room temperature. This is something I always wondered about and figured why not make a quick experiment out of this.
The dough I made is exactly the same as in this video: • The LAST Sourdough Bre... . However, to create a more elastic dough I opted to increase the hydration level to around 80% (+ a little from the starter). This way the dough has more room to expand, it also makes dough handling a little more challenging. I did the regular bench kneading, followed by another set of lamination ( • How To Laminate Your S... ). Since the flour has around 15% protein, I opted for a doubling of the dough during the bulk fermentation.
Recipe for the dough:
- 700 grams of bread flour (15% protein)
- 100 grams of whole wheat flour
- 640 grams of water (80%)
- 160 grams of sourdough starter (20%)
- 16 grams of salt (2%)
Flour I am using:
Blog article on different flours in Germany: thbrco.io/blog-flour
Drax Mühle Manitoba flour 14% protein: thbrco.io/drax-flour
For ze Germans - T550 at Rewe 11-12% protein: thbrco.io/rewe-aurora
Mulino Padano 15% protein: thbrco.io/mulino-flour
Strong whole wheat flour: thbrco.io/whole-wheat-flour
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Tools:
Banneton proofing basket (25cm length, 15cm width, 8.5cm height): thbrco.io/banneton
Cooling rack: thbrco.io/cooling-rack
Digital kitchen scale: thbrco.io/kitchen-scale
Dough scraper: thbrco.io/dough-scraper
Dutch oven for batards (Challenger Bread Pan): thbrco.io/dutch-oven-batards
Dutch oven round (Lodge): thbrco.io/dutch-oven-round
Dutch oven with glas lid (Brovn) - BREADCODE = 5% off: thbrco.io/dutch-oven-glas-lid
Infrared thermometer: thbrco.io/infared-meter
Loaf pan (30cm length x 12cm width x 9cm height): thbrco.io/loaf-pan-regular
Loaf pan with lid (34cm length, 13cm width, 12cm height): thbrco.io/loaf-pan-lid
No stick spray (vegetable based): thbrco.io/non-stick-spray
Oven gloves: thbrco.io/oven-gloves
pH meter to check acidity: thbrco.io/ph-meter
Weck starter jars: thbrco.io/weck-jars
Useful videos:
Debaked ep. 1 - Pizza journey to Napoli: thbrco.io/debaked-napoli
Debaked ep. 2 - Journey to a flour mill: thbrco.io/debaked-flour-mill
Discard starter bread: thbrco.io/discard-starter-bread
Fermentation time table: thbrco.io/fermentation-time-t...
Make a sourdough starter: thbrco.io/make-sourdough-starter
Make your starter more active: thbrco.io/more-active-starter
Recommend sourdough bread recipe: thbrco.io/sourdough-recipe
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:12 Removing the dough from the container
2:50 Preshaping for maximum open crumb
3:30 Shaping for the best open crumb
4:31 Proofing stage at room temperature and in the fridge
7:28 Baking and scoring room temperature dough
9:54 Baking and scoring fridge proofed dough
12:53 Both breads and the winner
#sourdough #opencrumb - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
You can always tell which child is his favorite when he does these experiments
Glad to know they both turned out. To me the winner is the one that fits in with your schedule.
If you spritz your bread before you score it, you'll find it's much easier to score in one quick stroke. Good luck and thanks for the video.
That's a good idea! Will test and report :-)
Can you spritz without a Dutch oven ?
Maybe there’s a dialect barrier, but what is Spritz?
Spray with water
8:20 Found it, it’s weird how I never found it odd in videos, but I read Spritz, nothing comes to mind
Just lovely our videos and sense of humour! Viel dank!
Hey man! You should be at million subs for sharing this amazing knowledge. Your videos helped me a lot, thank you❤
Glad you think so! Thanks a lot!
I'm cold proofing overnight and it's working well for me....fairly new at this. I'm happy with the journey
Thank you for this experiment 🔬 🧪 you are truly the sourdough king ! No joke sourdough baking will never be the same again because of your research 🧐 that is crazy when you think about it , this is a first ! Iv never seen such beautiful loaves of bread we have a few Artesan bakeries here and iv seen nothing like this ! Pure perfection, I can only dream one day I will get to this point! Bravo 👏🏼
Wow Tracey ❤️ - thank you for those nice words, truly appreciated! You will get there, it will just take some time :-). Focus on mastering the fermentation, thats what is most important.
This is the sort of geek experiment I would do, so thanks for doing it for me and saving me some time! 😜
Happy to help! 🤓
Yay! I have a cranberry and walnut loaf waiting to go in the oven and I’ve been preferring room temp proofing for “sweeter” breads. I’m also going to try spraying my loafs today! Wish me luck
Gluten Tag Young. Good luck!
Love your music selection!! Thanks for the informative video.
You unbelievable, very Scientific, well done bread code
It’s funny that I am in the middle of this exact experiment today 😮
Your bread looks better than mine though 😂
🤣keep me posted on your results, very curious!
When I first started watching your videos I skipped all the 'science' type stuff. Then I went back and started watching everything more carefully and I have learned so much. Using the sample to check the bread rising is a game changer. My sour dough bread baking is now very much more successful! I would love to see a video that uses a mixture wholemeal, rye and spelt flour if that is at all possible!
Thank you Maria! I agree - especially if you want to make recipes work at home. It is very hard with sourdough, you need to have a little bit of understand. I took a note will keep that in mind :-). Thanks!
I really like your videos. I am still struggling with getting the perfect loaf out. For most times, I will get the spring but not that gorgeous open crumb. I might get one or two or sometimes more, but it still feels rather dense. Still very edible and I"m not sure which process, fermentation or proofing gets these pockets to form. Either way, I'm having tons of fun with all this baking.
Now do the taste test with these two loaves. You will find that the refrigerated dough has much more complex flavors, thus, your refrigerator-proofed bread will be the winner when it comes to flavor. The process of cooling the dough (up to 12 hours recommended) simply retards the consumption and conversion of sugars into alcohol and CO2 by the yeast. Instead, bacteria become the dominant processors of enzymes and create more acetic and lactic acid, producing a much better flavor to your bread. They both look great, but I prefer the refrigerated loaf: beautiful ovenspring and tall bread. In terms of the openness of the crumb, I think they are about equal. Very nice!!
Hey Jelle. Thanks for the excellent comment! Would you say the fridge proofing results in a more acidic final bread in the end? Because as far as I know (Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology), lower temperatures will favor the yeast activity and not so much the bacteria. Thanks!
I think the fridge bread is the winner all the way. I even like the crumb more.
Nice theory Jelle, however, after a decade in business I just have to point out that it may not be necessarily true. In case of using a mature preferment (natural or yeasted) your bread doesn't benefit from being retarded overnight. Nowadays slow rising or retarding in chillers are very popular in business simply because it's easier to schedule bakery production and it has nothing to do with sensoric quality of bread.
@@thehissingsound4830 following your arguments you don’t need to do any proofing after your bulk fermentation anyways.
@@MegaFregel I didn't say anything like that. You obviously have to proof up a dough after shaping to get the desired volume, right
Amazing bread. Mine doesn't look that nice but I'm getting there. Keep up the good work!
Thank you 😋Feel free to reach out with questions at any time!
Haha! I half expected to see a bite taken out of that first loaf when you took it off camera to smell it. You're making me hungry!
🤣 good idea for the next video.
Love this experiment! I keep wondering if I need to warm up my dough after the fridge or pop it right in... or is there any difference to counter vs fridge. You are such fun to listen to ( fabulous accent btw, never apologize. )and your enthusiasm is addicting. You release my inner detail nerd too!!!! I am not an engineer, but I like to work like one and enjoy precision. You make it such fun!
Thank you! Don't warm it up. Directly place it inside of your dutch oven without heating it up.
Did you do a follow up on adding gluten flour to boost the protein content?
The cold ferment is generally regarded as flavour formation period, did you discern any noticeable taste difference between the two?
Do you let your dough warm up after taking it out of the fridge before baking or does it go directly from the fridge to the oven? TY
I freaking love this guy
Thank you!
Gluten tag! This just shows that although there are some differences, they are not that significant. But this experiment shows that there is flexibility in the process to accommodate to schedule. To me both look equally good, though different. Query: was there a difference in the taste? Sourness of the bread?
As always great video! I think I am going to try this recipe. Right now the house it a tiny bit cooler so I can make bread in one day easy. Just have to watch it!
Gluuuuten Tag to Florida. I could not notice a big difference in terms of taste. However - in theory the one proofed in the fridge should have a less sour note to it, as the bacteria sleeps faster the colder it gets. Happy baking!
Dear Mr Stingy German Baker, when exactly do you extract the sample? After mixing in the starter or after the series of stretch and fold?
When you removed the lid after 25 minutes of baking, did you also remove the pan of water, and then finish off the bake? Also, did you oil your glass bowl in which you had your first rise?
Hey Bonnie. In the dutch oven I don't use any pan of water, just the dutch oven. But if there was one, you should remove it too yep. Nope - I don't oil the glas bowl. Typically after a few stretch and folds the dough sticks less.
Cool to see that you and foodgeek seem to complement each other's experiments, given that he just posted a video showing that different proofing durations don’t influence crumb/taste a whole lot. Do you agree with his results?
Thank you! In terms of taste - yep, I agree. In terms of crumb, I disagree. When you proof on point you will have a lot more tiny pockets of air making the bread even fluffier :-). Not even caring about those big bubbles, just the really tiny ones. It really makes a big difference :-)
I can imagine that the warmer dough was more extensible/softer and thus it ran a little "flatter".
The colder dough was stiffer and held shape better. But being stiffer, maybe the bubbles couldn't expand as much.
Moin Thomas. Yep. You are right. I just confirmed this and will be shown in my next experiment video 😎
@@the_bread_code Ich freue mich schon! 😊🍞🤟
I always bake in a clay roaster for that reason. Slightly slacker doughs will still rise nicely as they are "cradled" in the baking vessel.
Thanks for sharing. :-)
If you put the hot Dutch Oven on the stone of your counter, is it on a support against the heat or directly on that stone?
Can't that damage?
Moin Skitch. It's directly on the stone. The stone will heat up a little bit but it doesn't cause any issues.
I've actually bought some Glutenpulver a few days ago and already tried it for a pizza dough. It did work fine, I could mix it well with the flour and the result were good. Mixed cheap AP 10g protein with the gluten to 14g per 100g flour and it could take much more water. 70% hydration was really easy to work with. Next time I'll bake bread I'll use the gluten for it, too.
Great. Please let me know how it goes. It's a good idea :-)
I used gluten too and it was great 😀
@@angelikaradominska5512 for the pizza dough, the taste was ok but I may have to test further. I think it did not taste as good as with a good Caputo flour. Esp. after long fermentation of 3-4 days there was something missing/off. But that also might be something a bias ;)
@@nopenope1 I was waiting for my order from e-shop so I tryed to experiment 😀now I have 15 kg good quality 14.5% of protein Manitoba 0 flour and I no longer need to add gluten 😘
@@angelikaradominska5512 😂
Thanks for the experiment mate, really great comparison -- although I myself prefer the one with cold proofing, but of course that's a question of personal preference :)
One question though: when do you take your sample for the "dough clock"? Do you put it into the jar after you add the starter (i.e. at the end of autolyse), or after the folds? I recon it's the former but I just would like to hear your opinion when it's the best time and method to check the volume growth. Thank you!
Thanks! I typically extract it as soon as I added the starter, just to make sure both are on the same level when starting the fermentation.
They look exactly the same. I've done bulk fermentation in the fridge and the counter and it's both great but the fridge I like better. I've proofed my loaves on the counter at room temperature; the fridge gives an awsome oven spring when popping it right out of the fridge to my hot dutch oven and also has much better flavor.
Tried this yesterday. The bread turned out okay , but the short proofing at room temperature had a negative effect on the taste. I will definately continue to proof in the fridge.
Interesting. Do you fully proof in the fridge then?
@@the_bread_code Yes,
at least 12 hours in the fridge. After bulk fermentation only in the fridge.
16:12 I calculated intersection area values of breads using photoshop. Room temperature proofed bread's aread is about 2.5% larger than cold proofed bread.
😂 😂 😂 😂 you are awesome. Thank you 🙏🏻
What about the fact he did not weigh the loaves... for all we know, one loaf was that much heavier than the other.
Do you bake the loaf directly from the fridge, or how long in room temperature before baking it? Cheers from Sweden
I bake it directly from the fridge :-)
Hi, I’m just wondering, I got large holes near the crust but quite dense in the middle…what does that mean pls…?
Likely overfermented aaand probably not enough steam!
Very interesting. I think the difference is well within the natural variability from one loaf to another. I have baked bread the same day with equal results to cold retarded bread, with just a slight difference in sourness from the longer fermented one. But certainly not a big difference.
so how's taste like both bread? Was room temp fermentation one less sour than fridge? I'm trying to bake less sour sourdough and can't determine which method I'm going to use for 2nd fermentation
Based on the taste both of them were very close. Hard to distinguish. Based on science the cold proofed one should be less sour.
You can see that the one that's cold proofed held its shape better. More noticeable with higher hydration. And I think it keeps fresh for longer.
9:18 😂😂😂 that looks like a meat thermometer! The fridge proofed loaf has the better crumb, in my opinion. Both had good blistering. I consider the large holes to be a defect, however the “webbing” of gelatinized starch in the fridge loaf is good! Thanks.
🤣 I destroyed it! I need to try this again and do 1 hour at room temperature, then move the dough to the fridge. I feel it could have proofed slightly longer.
How long do you let it 'warm back up' after fridge proofing before it goes into the oven? Thanks
It goes directly into the oven out of the fridge :-)
Is your Dutch oven really heavy? Sorry getting off topic here 😎 and thanks for the spritz tip I’m looking forward to getting those blisters 😍
Yep. It is quite heavy. But still okay to lift. Blisters come from fermentation on point and then a steamy environment :-)
Hi! I'm wondering, du you have an episode about proofing test with your magic little Jar? I'm testing it now and I really need some information :)
Do you keep the sample in the glasjar all the time or do you pick it up like the maindough and fold it too?
Hey Anders. Yep - got a video on that, check this video out: th-cam.com/video/dl7crk2Nvj8/w-d-xo.html. I just leave it there :-)
@@the_bread_code Great! :)
Are you changing the emissivity setting when measuring different surface temperatures?
Oh nope. Should I do that?
@@the_bread_code Yes you should for accurate temperature measurements. Your IR gun was set to 0.95 which is the setting for measuring temperature on a black surface.
I wondering if you really make just 30 min proofing stage at room temperature before the loaf going into the oven?
Hey Svitlana. Ah noes, sorry. The fridge one had 30 minutes at room temperature, then in the fridge. The RT one was overall 2.5 hours roughly.
16 hour from when you finished? Or when you started?
Do you cover them after reshaping?
Nope. They set for 30 minutes right there on my counter. It's cold here (around 21-22°C). In summer times I would probably only wait 15 minutes or else they might form a little bit of a crust on top. The high hydration helps though.
Hi there, nice video 😊👍 do you have any video/experiment, explaining how different flour/protein content affect different size increase during bulk fermentation? Thank you
Hey Astrid. Yep. A few of them. I'd recommend you try with 25% size increase, then you can work yourself upwards :-)
@@the_bread_code thank you 😊
and again...two Breads i would like to copy.... i will get there! All we need is just a little patience... and a sample :)
Yes, 100% - you will get there!
Have you tried to Bulk Ferment directly in the banneton And Bake afterwards to skip the final Proof?
Have not tried this before. It could work in case you build enough dough strength at the start.
Cold proofing is not just about large holes. If using wholegrain flour in the dough there are enzymes which work on the dough weakening the gluten, but giving much better flavours and a softer mouthfeel. This is particularly evident with sourdough bread where the LABS develop tremendous flavour profiles.
The other crucial process going on with cold proofing is that the CO2 trapped in the dough, migrates into the existing vacuoles. Vacuoles are a complex lipid structure which actually attracts the CO2 into itself. This process takes time. So although fermentation is slowed gas migration continues.
If I may, it is an anathema to me when I see American bakers promoting Vital Gluten. I'm not sure you did, so this is not aimed at yourself. American flour is amongst the strongest in the world. So strong in fact that cold bulk ferments and cold proofing are often used for the gluten weakening effect because a very strong dough will resist the formation of an open crumb.
FWIW I do a mere 15 minute proofing before putting the dough into the fridge and most often bake after 12 hours. It all depends on how warm my kitchen is and what state the dough is in after shaping. A slacker dough, no warm bench time and a shorter period in the fridge. Your 24 hour as a quote of 'most people' is very much on the long side. 12H - 16H is much more near the norm.
I'll leave it there. I happened onto your video whilst looking for some tech. info on cold proofing.
It's so good to see an able baker promoting such good practice.
A great watch - Thanks.
Thank you for this scientific information! I've recently realized advantages of cold long proofing by making classical yeast bread and especially sourdough bread.
@@AlexanderPoznanski You are welcome. Your channel is superb. There are few which are so well informed. A joy to watch.
@@kevinu.k.7042 Thank you for approving!
@@AlexanderPoznanski Ouch, maybe something got lost in translation there. That sounds like sarcasm. I did not mean to patronise you in any way.
Whatever, We can all learn from others. Myself included. And, some of us have been baking for forty years fifteen of them working to bread test kitchen standards. I was going to give you a link to my redacted notes. They would be very useful to someone baking at your level. Fifteen years of testing methods backed up by reading published research papers. The offer is there if you want it. I do not want anything for them. My only interest is better home baking for all.
And, yes we all bake a little differently.
@@kevinu.k.7042 Yes, I don't know English well. Thought that it will be sound sophisticated. I've put in my replying words the following meaning: highest grade of thank you. I haven't had the English-spoken environment to know how to say accurately in polite form in different grades of politeness. Now I say simply: thank you!
Hey Where can you buy that jar?!
Oh the small fermentation sample? I got that one from Rewe. It came with a desert.
Great experiment! Can you tell me, do you prefer the Challenger pan over the Brovn?
For day to day baking I would prefer the challenger bread pan. But for filming the brovn is excellent :-)
@@the_bread_code Thanks. Is that due to ease of handling for the challenger or for results of the bake? I have a Brovn in the box which arrived today :)
What a relief !! Cause my sourdoughs nevvver rise in the fridge and i don't know why !!!
I’m curious to know which one you liked the taste better.
I was hardly able to notice a difference.
The reason people proof at cold temperature is that some bacterias, which make the bread sour, prefer colder temperature, between 0 to 15 degrees. So if you’re not having a cold proof, those bacteria might not develop much, making the bread less sour (In sourdough baking, we get to grow the bacteria that like to be around 5-10 degrees C and the one that like around 30 degrees C).
Under 15 degrees the yeasts don’t work much, so you should not get much more open crumb with a cold dough. But you get a higher, less large bread, because it spread less when you remove it from the banneton. Which is what happened in your video btw.
I’m all for the fridge proof myself considering that I prefer the bunny shape for my slices and I get some more sourness, but it’s not a big loss to not do the cold proof.
I do like the sourdough flavor but less sour. A mild slidly sour taste with whole spelt or whole wheat (20%, rest bread flour, wheat) with butter... so tasty. Fresh, just cooled down enough to slice it... never tasted such a good bread before, and I did make it! :D
I'm lazy and do not try to get to perfection. My results still are mixed. When I've got it right I'm very happy with my results. I do prefere to get the starter less sour with feeding it like here and somewhere else it was described.
The best results I've got was with a overnight proof and baking it in the morning, only half an hour in the fridge after forming.
The overnight proofing went wrong a few times, though. One time overfermentation, one time not long enough.
Hey Franck,
thanks for the great comment! I thought the same, but this is not true. A cold retarded dough will not be more sour. Took this from "Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology" p. 165:
"The acidity of the sourdough depends on lactic and acetic acid production by lactic acid bacteria [40]. Usually, low temperatures of sourdough fermentation delay the lactic acidification and decrease the time of yeast exposure to high acidity. A low fermentation temperature was suggested as a means to improving the synthesis of CO2 by yeasts"
Furthermore they write on the yeast activity:
"In bakery practice, refrigeration of dough or sourdough is used to control fermentation. Under the refrigerated conditions, yeasts have to maintain and then to recover their fermentative capacity in a very short period of time (15-30 min). At 4-8°C, many yeast strains continue to ferment at a slow rate and induce a slight increase of the dough volume. The fermentation stops at 4°C."
One thing that could improve the taste, is the fact that the metabolism at colder temperatures produces different enzymes adjusting the flavor a little bit. But in this experiment I could not notice a change in taste.
Hope this helps.
The Bread Code While I have no doubt that some yeast might still work at low temperature, so does bacterias.
It would depends on the type of bacterias in your starter though.
As you can see here, Psychrotophs and Mesophiles would be working around 30 degree C, but Psychrophiles works best around 5-10 degree C
ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/microbio/chapter/temperature-and-microbial-growth/
Also, that might no be the case in your fridge, but many bakers using cold proofing try to get their fridge as close as 0 degree C to in fact only grow bacterias, not yeast.
Now there are many reason why a study might not find much more acidity after a test, one being that Psychrophiles are more frequent in oceans and cold biomes than on the rest of the planet (but that doesn’t mean they can’t be found at all elsewhere). So I guess that in an experiment where the sourdough starter was never let to grow in a fridge, those bacterias never really multiplied, and therefore were simply not there to make a change for their cold proof experiment.
But I keep my starter regularly in the fridge for days after letting it out a day or two out after feeding, so in my case at least, they have time to grow. I can smell the odor of my starter changing and getting more acid over time when in the fridge, so I know acidification is happening, even if don’t have tools to measure it myself.
And yes that mean I disagree with science using science here, but also my nose and tongue.
Anyway, I’d say, you can measure that yourself. Don’t you have a tool to measure acidity? How about having a starter in the fridge and feeding it every 5-7 days... 14 days? I usually feed mine, let it out for the yeast and some bacteria about 10-12 hours then I place it in the fridge. I then take some of that starter to make a levain (so I grow some of it for a bread) and my actual starter can be in the fridge about 2 weeks like this between feeding, I just take what I need in the meantime (I never have any discard). Well, I’m not asking you to do this experiment, but if you feel like verifying this yourself, then that’s the way to do it.
@@Fuzzi974 awesome - thanks for the reply and the link. Very interesting to read! It just shows how sourdough is much more complex than you might think at the start. That's why I love baking with sourdough :-). It also makes it so challenging, as you have so many parameters to consider.
@@the_bread_code Well, speaking about learning, I added hot (not boiling) water to my flour for hydrolyse today (it's cold in my flat, I tried to see if that would help instead of the oven trick), and apparently if the water is hot, the flour needs a bit more water than usual.
I wouldn't be able to give you numbers, I didn't took the temperature precisely or used a scale or measuring glass for how more more water I had to use, bit I think I added 5 to 10% more water than usual. Fist a bit more when I hydrolysed, and then a bit more again when mixing with the levain... I'm not sure if this is because some had evaporated or not.
My open crumb is beautiful I think I’ve just been a little impatient with the proving and bulk fermentation
.
Proofing on point is also essential to get that beautiful crumb in the end :-)
At the moment i shape and let proof at room temp till the poke test feels about 2/3 ready and put ot in a really cold fridge (2°C). While it cools it finishes proofing and then it is so cold that it is doesn't do much.
I started baking when the pandemic started and the last loafes were spot on. Apart from beeing flexible when i bake, i found i get a very nice scent that remindes me of yoghurt, that os lacking with room temp proofing. And i hate big bubbles. Actually i dont understand the hype. How do you spread butter evenly? I like medium sized (~5 - 10mm) and uniform bubbles.
Hey Figilande - oh that's great with the 2/3 ready finger poke test. The cold fridge then will definitely do a great job. You'll pass the finger poke test in the fridge as the dough is still warm and then slowly have cooled down everything, great! Oh I just love a very fluffy bread. To me the perfect bread has a nice crust, somewhat open crumb and is still a little wet, achieved by a high water content.
Great! But... how do you know when it"s 2/3?
I call loaves like the refrigerated one in this video "rooster loaves". It's got a comb on top! 😁
I don't see any steam or smoke. Is your dutch oven not preheated very hot? Mine steams and smokes when I tip the dough out.
Oh wow. Then mine is probably not as hot as your dutch oven.
@@the_bread_code I bake at 450F. But I technically have to set it to 475F because it's actually 25 degrees colder than what the oven screen says. I wonder what temperature your oven is? I have two thermometers in mine for checking the real temperature.
@@justryan2070 Mine is always a little hotter than the meter shows. It's good to check this indeed. I typically bake at 230°C all the time. But I am trying something different today.
Are you going to do the video using AP flour and adding gluten?
Great Idea. Thanks! I took a note.
Not that I ever would, but how much powdered gluten (I happen to have a box in my cupboard) would you recommend be added to 500grams of AP flour for your "Last Recipe You'll Ever Need For Sourdough Bread" ??? The box doesn't state how much gluten per Tsp but just says use 1 tsp.
Try 5 grams per 100 grams of all purpose flour :-)
@@the_bread_code Thank you.
If you had to make a call on the single most important factor on getting an open crumb, what would that be?
Perfect on point fermentation :-). You can even get a nice open crumb on a bread with less hydration. Check out my no-knead sourdough bread for instance.
Which one tasted better? please respond
I couldn't notice a difference 👍
I use 82% hydration and never put any more water on (Spritzing) and I get tons of bubbles in the crust.
Good to know :-). Do you proof your dough at colder temperatures?
Not just better holes , but tastes way better as well ,,, proof proof proof
True that.
Hallo aus Kanada. I am proofing (proofing or prooving🤔) my loaves for 1 hour at room temperature and then they will go into the fridge at about 5⁰C........I'm a bit confused on total fridge time? Sounds like anywhere from 8 to 24 hours before baking...........do you have any German perfection engineering scientific mastermind hacks on fridge proofing timing? 😁😁 danke schön!!
Thanks! Unfortunately nope with fridge proofing. I would start with 8 hours first. See if you have room to improve, then work yourself up with every loaf until you overproof. It is really hard to say with fridge proofing.
actually i like mine with a lot more stuff in it , Butter , milk , honey rather then sour starter , i dont like sour bread , hopefully that doesnt offend you :)
What i am not getting and would like to get is those Bubbles , i get a few but not as much , i also dont have Dutch Oven , just simple pan ,
maybe that is the reason .
Ich hab das Experiment gemacht zu Weihnachten, aufgrund des Lockdowns musste ich ein Laib früher backen damit es meine Mutter mitnehmen konnte. Das andere habe ich dann am nächsten Morgen gebacken. Ich bevorzuge eher cold proof über mind 12h im Kühlschrank anstatt Backen am selben Tag.
Moin Abigail - interessant. Warum magst Du das kalte proofen lieber? Danke!
@@the_bread_code Nach dem kalten proofen behält der Teig schön seine Form und „zergeht“ nicht so dass es am Rand von meinem Gusseisentopf ankommt. Beim scoring hat man mehr Kontrolle darüber. Natürlich würde ich auch ein proofing bei Zimmertemperatur (Proofing Box) machen, allerdings nur wenn ich das Brot am selben Tag backen will/muss wie in meinem Fall. Ich habe beide Laibe abfotografiert. Das Brot meiner Mutter war zum Schluss etwas flacher verglichen zu meinem.
Does the room temp one taste more yeasty?
Nope. I'd say they were quite similar in terms of taste :-)
I like the refrigerator one better. I like breads that have more height than width. I got a 1" ear on a loaf I made a couple weeks ago! :D
Nice :-D You must have done perfect scoring then 😎
For me fridge proofed bread is never rises as well as one proofed at room temp. Don't know why , I have tried it multiple times but it does not have the same oven spring so I will stick to room temp from now.
Yep. A few degrees too cold and it simply doesn't work. That's why I prefer the room temperature proofing. If I don't have time, I like to use the fridge after around an hour at room temperature.
I tried one yesterday , where I took the bread from the fridge and let it sit for about an hour before baking but the oven spring still did not match the room temp proofed bread. So I'm finally done with retarding the bread .!!! Make and bake on the same day is the way to go for me.😃
@@amourelya It's all about finding what works for you and your schedule. I pretty much rely on the fridge to even out all my little inconsistencies and scheduling mishaps :D
@@amourelya Agreed. Try 1 hour proofing at RT then directly into the fridge. Bake the bread when it is cold out of your fridge :-). But yeah, I like RT a lot too.
@@the_bread_code tried that too , still didn't work 😆 I give up !
I get far more consistent results when I do retard my fermentation in the fridge. I have to have my timing bang on and really pay attention to everything when I'm not using the fridge (I do bulk fermentation in a covered steel bowl so I have to remember to look in on it) and I'm really bad at that so... yeah, fridge. Fermentolyse for half an hour, then stretch and folds every half-hour till the texture is right (I go till it feels as "tight" on the first stretch as it does in the middle or towards the end of the previous stretch-fold), then set the timer for an hour and check on it, if it's getting fat enough (my bowls have volumetric measurements inside) I'll shape the loaves and put them in the fridge to be baked the next day and if it's not, I'll set the timer and check on it in another hour, or if I need sleep or have to run off to work, I chuck it in the fridge, then shape the loaves whenever I get to it. In cases where I've let the bulk fermentation go too far (forgot my timer or left it out overnight) I'll shape it, let it rest an hour in the fridge then bake it and I'm still avoiding frisbees :)
Interesting. Yep - I have been the fridge preferring person too. But in this experiment I was really stunned, the finger poke test really made me ferment exactly on point.
@@the_bread_code I've not had great luck with the finger poke test even on room temperature loaves, I have ended up with a few very tall but underproofed and explodey loaves that way. I follow another sourdough channel where he did some very long retard experiments and so it's quite possible your refrigerated loaf needed four or eight more hours in the fridge to be equivalent to the room temperature one. I used to make a double recipe, split into two loaves, and bake one the next day and the other the day after that and sometimes there were differences and sometimes there weren't, I need to start doing that again now that I'm using the roasting pan cover.
@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 I think the problem is then likely your bulk fermentation. You don't ferment long enough. If you bulk on time, then directly bake, you will still have a somewhat airy crumb :-)
If you want huge holes in your crumb do large folds. Take two wet hands 🙌 and lift a corner of the dough and waggle it whilst expanding it gently- do same on each corner. Wide thin folds will give it to you. It’s annoying if you butter 🧈 your bread though!
Hey Paul. Yep that would work. Those large holes are too crazy large though 🤣. I like the ones naturally induced through fermentation.
What about taste? Is it true cold proofing results in more sour bread?
I think this is a myth hehe. I need to confirm this more though :-)
So what about the taste. Was there a difference?
No difference that I noticed.
Can u pls comment on the flavor???
So why do people proof in the fridge then?
I think the room temperature bread is weider than the other one because passing it from the form to the dutchoven the dough was stuck in the form . I never use the cloth over the form, but last week I try to used it and the dough was so stuck that I destroyed the form when I put it in the oven.
Oh noes. Actually I had something similar happen to me today. Will be shown in my next experiment video.
If you haven't heard it already, you have got to listen to "Baker Man" by the band Laid Back.
How long did the room temperature dough sit?
Moin Dana. It was long - probably 12 hours.
👌👌👌👌👍
Moin Aslinur Kalenderoglu, you are most welcome! Feel free to reach out with more questions at any time. Happy baking and cheers from Hamburg.
What is this Dutch Oven and where did you get it? I need something just like this! Greetings from Ba-Wü! :)
challengerbreadware.com/de/die-Pfanne/
@Unser - thanks! That's the one :-)
@@the_bread_code It looks amazing and Im sure it is, but the price is just to severe for me. Still great Video as usual.
@@UnserSindViele The Challenger is quite a bit more expensive than the other options available to me in the US. Lodge makes a round covered baker that I considered because it too has a shallow base as opposed to the deep dutch ovens that many people use. I wanted something that I wouldn’t burn myself on every time I put the dough in. I went with the Challenger because an oval loaf of bread makes more uniform slices than a round loaf. Plus my husband prefers the oval loaf and he gave the approval to spend more. It’s important to make him happy. I can still use the Challenger to bake a round boule but it’s not so easy to bake an oval loaf in the round covered bakers. I have used it twice so far and am quite pleased with the loaves it has produced.
I just used my new Fourneau cloche today and really like it. More like a Quonset hut with a machine fit door. Less chance of burning yourself putting the bread in and taking it out.
Crumb airiness is a limited parameter of bread quality. You left the impression that the number of holes was important.
100% - this depends on which kind of bread you are baking. For this style of bread the fluffyness is an important factor (at least to me)
You sprayed more water on the second bread = more bubbles. To me they both look like good bread.
Thanks. Oh - I did not notice this. Thanks for the note!
@@the_bread_code You inspired me. I have two bread in the oven. All grain with cranberry, pumpkin seeds and sun seeds. Your bread were gorgeous, hope they were as good as they look. 🙂
But what about the flavor?
@@dmitrysharangovich1200 Then he would had needed to start making them at different times and bake them at the same time. It would not be fair to compare a fresh bread with one which is 16 hours (or something) old.
Great question. Personally, I could not notice a difference in terms of taste :-). Maybe I don't have enough taste nerves though 🤣
@Dmity - I could hardly notice a difference. The fridge one could have been slightly less acidic, but not on a level where I could really notice.
@@the_bread_code Thank you for the reply. Both loaves were beautiful, and, if they taste equally good , it's nice to know we have a good schedule-management option for this.
Also, this does inspire me to experiment more often on my own. I had wondered often about the standard method vs. retarded proof method, but it never occurred to me to just do it both ways and compare the results directly
7:30 MADE IN USA. You are a naughty German ! :P
They don't make similar stuff in ze Germany yet 😞
Ca-n you guide US on what dutch oven that îs? Brand and model. I am very close to The perfect bread but i think i need to Invest more în a US product. 🙂
@@ionutscinteianu of course. This is the one: thbrco.io/dutch-oven-batards. The one pan to rule them all 🤣
Better shape in the fridge version
I prefer the room temperature, in preparation for no electricity days.
What about taste?? So tell!
I could not notice a major difference in taste. Both were great :-)
Can you explain the reason then for a long cold fermentation? What is happening to the bread in the fridge? Is it better for your health with a longer cold fermentation? I do enjoy these videos.
Ich muss schon lachen über die Spritzflasche, als ob mein Bäcker jedes Brot mit Wasser einsprüht, ich denke wohl kaum 😅
🤣 Das macht der Ofen automatisch
Liked the video, thank you, please try to be less of a dork though :)
So the answer is Yes
I'd say it depends hehe. The RT had a great crumb as well.
@@the_bread_code Kudos for making the video, I was also curious about that.
Bolero
Do German's use the term "Spilling Hair's" which I believe is what you are doing? I would just eat the bread and get over the comparison.
Yes also say hair spitting / Haarspalterei means the same thing 😂😂😂😂
Crump
Crump? 🤣
Thou shalt not dip the top of a thermometer in water. A damp towel will do.
🤣 Lesson learned.
Why 17 mins?
This could be 2 mins.
Wet towel under your chopping board!
Cooler ... didn't even look at the video lol
How in the name of sweet little baby Jesus does your dough never ever stick to your fingers?
Even after 1h autolyse it will stick.
It sticks with 8%, 10% and 12.8% gluten.
Water ratio is always exactly 75%.
But it will also happily stick like mad at 65% and 60%. Haven't tried it with 50%, because I don't want stones for breads. And I can't do 80%, because I don't want soup for bread, which totally happened once.
Heck, it even sticks to counter tops, bowls and the dough scraper.
I tried pulling the scraper and fingers quick away from the dough. You know how Slimer from Ghost Busters left a loooong trail of slug where ever he went? Yeah, that's my dough when I pull away quick.
I tried 5 different brands of wheat flower. No special gluten pimped up elite flower though.
So unless I get my fingers super wet with ever tough on the dough, I'll have more dough on my fingers than on the dough it self.
I built my rye starter from the 1150 type. Once I had a healthy amount of activity, I fed the starter with 815 because I can handle the 815 better at a 100% flower/water ratio for the starter.
Then I leave the starter to grow over night for roughly 10h.
But never mind the starter, the dough sticks like crazy even before I mix in the starter.
I swear to the gods of bakery, I am either bewitched or you have soft smooth lotus hands.
Hey Man. Oh noes, sorry to hear! I'd say over the course of bulk fermentation the dough gets lots and lots less sticky. Of course, there is a turning point when you have fermented for too long. This is due to the fact that the dough increases in size, you have less surface area that you touch. Try making a really nice smooth dough ball after you kneaded the dough. Then the coil folds will be a lot easier.
@@the_bread_code No worries mate, it's all fun and games, and I'm totally not raging at the fact that your breads always turn out to be perfect on point. And mine is not.
I'll just go and blame the altitude at which I'm living for all the failures.
@@Herr_Vorragender Which altitude is that? Try bulk fermenting on point and then master proofing using the finger poke test. Make sure your starter is active.
why do people what air holes in their bread? Who cares what the bread looks like, how does it taste is all that should matter.
This very telling of our society.....would rather eat air holes because it looks cool rather than eat nutritious and filling bread. Something very spiritual about This.
Hey Eddy. I think it's a combination of the taste, looks and consistency. All 3 factors make an amazing bread :-)