I just discovered your videos last night and have been blown away by your incredibly detailed and informative discussions. The section on the dangers cross-contaminatiom by no knead dough is something should be heard/read by every bread baker. I'm primarily a sourdough baker and haven't made no knead bread since I first started baking, but in all the years I've made bread, I've never heard anything about this. I truly can't believe that this isn't commonly known information. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I really, REALLY appreciate it!
Thank you for your kind comment, and I'm happy to hear that the information was useful to you! Indeed, the dangers of contamination can be quite serious and should be known by more people. I've read enough about unfortunate outbreaks to be worried 😨
This is the most accurate and studied resume of the bread making process. In my professional experiece using exactly to the point everything that is explained by evidence , I must say that this is an extraordinary and precise resume. Thanks for your incredibly dedication and efforts.
there is also just a very simple, pragmatic reason for using them: I can let my preferment pretty much sit around for ages until it develops a nice, boozy aroma and even if the gluten is completely gone by the time I end up using it, I will still make good bread, because only a small fraction of the flour is used for the preferment. If I cold ferment the whole thing for a long time (especially rye or anything with a high enzyme activity) you can absolutely fuck up and overdo it and by the time you want to bake your bread it is already overfermented. so I would argue preferments just give you more control over the process.
I have been making sourdough bread for about 15 years and only this year started using a preferment. It took my 2 day bread making to 3 days but the flavor is worth it. I only knew a little of the science behind it but got most of my information from reading professional baking books and adapting it to my starter. You have greatly increased my knowledge of the science behind the art of breadmaking. I don't use commercial yeast, but all of the information you provided was useful. Thank you!
This was incredible. I’ve been a pretty obsessed sourdough enthusiast for the last year. And I had heard some of this science but this was by far the most comprehensive explanation I’ve come across.
Hello I have just discovered this channel and i am already a fan. I am a professional baker with over 40 years experience and i find your mix of science and practically so refreshing, I am always on the lookout for new ideas and knowledge and here I believe I can find something new, The methods you are demonstrating are not new to me but the explanations are giving me a lot of new ideas, there is nothing in the world more satisfying to me than the sight of a perfect bread coming out of the oven and I believe you may be able to help me do my job better. Thank you
Thank you! Glad to hear from a seasoned baker with such a long experience. A better insight can indeed bring out many untapped wonders of bread making.
Wow! Wow! Wow! This is a master's class for all bread makers. And outstanding presentation of the various components that interplay in bread making. Just sensational.
@coridaw715 attention and being underrated have 2 different connotations. But......I'm old enough to understand that. When you say " this is underrated " it's actually an insult or backhanded compliment. Can you please comment back after your 16th birthday. Thank you
Excellent review as always. Worth emphasizing that a huge benefit of preferments is when it comes to enriched doughs. A long fermentation will end up with a very different, less desirable chemical profile and lack any control.
Wow. What a presentation I really learned a lot. I've been watching a lot of baking vid lately and I'm so happy to discover this channel. This is on the university lectures level. I watched a lot of it during the lockdown just for a change and been a fan of Joanne Chang since then. You are now part of that list. Thank you for sharing. I'll definitely binge-watch in this channel.❤ Kudos😊
wow! especially thanks for the glutathione info ... been doing 100% biga-no-stress (18C 18hours) with 'poor' flour in tropics, 90F 90%Humidity ... recently tried some glutathione, not understanding it would make the poor flour weaker for pizza, and overferement fast/fall down ... now using a pinch of vitamin C powder/ascorbic acid with some better results on increasing dough strength and dough ballls for pizza ... its about balance sometimes .... expereince. thanks for sharing ur work ... Good Stuff!
Great video as usual. To be honest the levain aspect of bread baking was my Eureka moment 1 month ago. No one really spelled it out to me exactly and I was in the mindset, that well yeah there are these vague benefits but people claim they have great bread without them so in my mind it was just a recipe thing. Than I realised that this is the essence of taste and structure and all of these aromas. Than I realised there are recipes that have multi stage levains with specific tempartures in different stages just to get the right balance of microorganisms and compounds mix. Than YT notified me about your video just adding the science behind it :) Awesome and keep it up. Love your channel and also the "no BS baking" channel :)
It's worth mentioning that as home bakers we are not that much confined by the economy of baking so we can have a wider playing field by experimenting with combining sourdough starter derived levains with yeasted preferments in a single recipe. Food for thought :D
Wow, these information are so comprehensive and scientific especailly presented by a young lady in 34 minutes. You really spend quite time to dig out so much information and thanks for sharing these on the TH-cam channel. God bless you !
The most comprehensive video out of hundreds I've seen on this topic. I understood around 70% of it. I'd love if you could do a deep dive into what you said about flour to water ratios in levain - how can I vary those ratios to get my desired characteristics?
I heard the argument from ChainBaker (great experiment but I don't agree on everything he do... because the result are not always great). At first it seemed to me that it made sense but then by doing some tests I realized that there were differences (not big, but the difference were actually there). That's why I started to use them again at least if I don't use lievito madre (sourdough starter)... if I decide to just make fast bread I don't make a preferment but I also don't use the fridge... less flavour but if I want to use the bread for scarpetta or a sandwitch I'm not eating just bread alone (and it's still good, after all it still got maillard reaction. Not complex like sourdough bread or bread made with preferment, but still fresh bread)... sometimes I just add greek yogurt or whey from the greek yogurt that I create at home or even lemon juice... both are acidic and add flavour without the need for a long fermentation. But this was still interesting, I only did research by trying some recipes... I didn't know the science behind it. And I finally understand why fresh baker's yeast give me better result than dry yeast too. The only point I have some doubts about is the contamination problem. Not because it isn't true and possible, but simply because I have noticed that we as modern day humans often tend to exaggerate with health regulations. An example is the total ban on raw milk. Which is true, even in the best of situations it can be contaminated... But in reality in a controlled context it comes out practically sterile from the cow and is immediately refrigerated. Pasteurization does eliminate this initial risk, but only until the milk package is opened. At that point a new contamination can occur which, if milk is consumed without boiling it immediately before, after several days can be similar to that of raw milk. The problem is also that pasteurized milk has a different flavor and different characteristics (it is terrible for creating cheese for example). Same thing with making mayonnaise at home from raw eggs... it's not 100% safe, but mayonnaise is still sour from winegar or lemon juice, most of the times it should be fine. In general I believe that food contamination is quite inevitable. Obviously using common sense and washing your hands and keeping work tools clean are good practices in the kitchen and pure and simple common sense, but I don't think that making bread with the no knead method by doing a long fermentation in the fridge, then cooking the bread, has such a high risk of creating a culture of salmonella sufficient to defeat a healthy individual's immune defenses and cause significant harm. It is possible, but it's like not crossing the street because a car can kill you... or using a sourdough starter made at home (it's sour but nobody know what's really inside). Bacteria are found everywhere, the idea is to prevent harmful bacteria from multiplying enough to cause damage, a baked product like bread is basically quite low risk by nature, because the intense heat will kill most of the bacteria. Even if there is some cross-contamination the new colony of salmonella will be small and the baked bread is not so full of water as the dough so it will be a more difficult environment even without sour. Knowing the information that preferments can reduce the contamination problem while creating better bread is great information, but I think the alarm is a bit exaggerated about the safety of long fermentation.
She's using a lot of researched data to make her case, but you use nothing more than your mere speculation. In case you didn't know, salmonella outbreak can kill and had killed many. Even if the probability isn't high, but the impact is fatal. You need to respect people who value their life more than bravado.
@@maertscisum I just don't think worrying about everything is a good way to enjoy life and I don't need to support that with data. Also the reason I said is not really common is because it is not really common.... there are already many laws to avoid that kind of contamination at the source so what you buy at the supermarket is usually safe (and even what you buy from farmer is usually safe too at least here in Italy laws are strict for selling anything food related). Contamination need time and the right environment that's a fact (bacteria will multiply over time like yeast in bread making and it is a fact that a sourdough starter is sour and it's not a good environment for a lot of bad bacteria). Common sense like washing the hand and keep the kitchen clean are ways to avoid contamination that's a fact too. Even if there is salmonella inside the bread dough high temperature kill it, that's also a fact, that's why she said the problem can be cross contamination after baking. They are all common knowledge that are even in the video accepted as common knowledge so I don't need to support any of that with data. And I don't think home baker's can analyze their own sourdough starter every time they bake with it so they accept the risk that there is some crazy things inside it that's not good... Like we all accept the risk to cross the street and be killed by a crazy car. I did not say to run over the car. It is important to keep hands and tools clean when you cook, but once you have done that there is still a chance to be hit by a car.... No reason to live like that car is waiting for you and avoid experiments and fun in the kitchen. And yes salmonella outbreak can kill a lot of people, but that's true for cars too but most people still own one or even two (I don't own a car btw). We do dangerous stuff everyday. Irrational things too like ban raw milk from the supermarket but still sell poison like cigarettes and alcohol (these too kill a lot of people... BTW I don't drink and I don't smoke).
I like your general attitude however, I believe the parents of the toddlers that were infected by salmonella in Alberta’s daycare centers are now scared because they relied on the public health officers to discover the source of food contamination before the outbreak and it was not “common-sense” that prevented the outbreak that affected 3 locations but scientific research to prevent continued contamination and illness.
@@maertscisum have you read the paper she cited about the bacterias? Even the paper she cited doesn't prove her point. They showed in the paper that at 21°C, neither bacteria exceeded the level of what they themselves claimed to be dangerous (5 log CFU/g). So assuming we ferment at 5°C, how do you expect it to be anywhere near dangerous according to that study? It's easy to just throw a study at people and hope they don't read it. It's funny though when the study she uses to prove her point actually does the opposite.
I'm fairly new with sourdough although I did, as a child, make yeast bread with mom. I have checked out so many channels trying 2 learn the secrets of sourdough bcuz I like the flavor & I love the idea of being that 'Baking Grandma,' lol! U have given me so much 2 think about & it may take awhile 2 sort thru things in my head but I know I'm going 2 watch more of ur channel! Thank u 4 ur research, love of baking & education of ur fellow man! U did it with dignity & class! Bravo!
Wow, such a thorough approach to your topics. I love it. Plus I was introduced by you to something I have never heard of before, namely Yudane in bread baking. I am learning so much. Keep it up girl!
I came to baking with a history in brewing/distilling, where it's understood you give the yeast a "head start" before adding to your wort, so that they can better out-compete any undesired yeasts or fungi. It never even occurred to me NOT to preferment!
You compressed a week length lecture to a 30 min video. lol. I also watched those videos that claimed using preferment is not necessary for home bakers. I thought it was pretty interesting perspective, but now you convinced me that's not a good idea. Thanks for the detailed information. I'm gonna watch this video again to swallow. I'm gonna use poolish again.
This video is how I discovered your channel and you made me an instant fan. I'm a fan of preferments, and more so always trying to learn and talk about food chemistry and food science. Next time I deal with someone on preferments, I can just link your video rather than type a wall of text! Thank you for making this video!!!!!!
Thank you for the video! It was really informative. I always love to find people on the Internet that are intensely passionate about a topic. Don't let the negativity get to you!
Love the content. I feel like professional bakers lack resources like this to help them hone in on their craft. There are rules of thumb and learning by experience, and countless baker influencers, but this video provides the knowledge for a baker to begin crafting their own path in a purposeful, scientific way. Much much love. No Ads please: sell me your cookbooks, online courses, and such.
I've done both! Prefermintes and overnight. PREFERMINTES MUCH BETTER!!! Such a beautiful flavor boost,simular to sour dough❤❤❤ Thanks for your expertise
To elaborate on my admiration: I bake part time for a nonprofit where the bread I bake ends up at the local Food Bank feeding seniors. I want to “meddle” with the recipe I have to bake just a bit. So I understand….I can take 25% of the total flour and water, Scald it, leave it in the fridge overnight then assemble the bread in the morning. Is this the general idea? There is also an autolyse component where I hydrate the remaining flour for an hour and a half. I think I can figure this out. If you don’t mind, I will let you know the results. (I’ve baked over 300 loaves of this recipe in the past 6 months) PS: For my on-going education, I will consume the rest of your training videos. I will be adding knowledge to knowledge to knowledge making me a better baker.
I am fascinated by your channel, I have only seen two videos now, but each look like a project for a college thesis! I love how you make the scientific terms more approachable but not infantilize us, as if the common public wasn't able to understand 'big words', or make a google search for definitions. It's so sad that the Internet mixes people with so much talent and who make great efforts to produce quality content, and people who will not finish watching your video before spilling their thoughts mindlessly. It's something that we have to endure when we let everyone talk in any conditions 😂 Thank you very much for your educative videos, it's been an instant follow!
Wow. This is incredible. I wish i was more of an audible learner. I need flow charts, graphs, and ...maybe i need a book with lots of pictures because flavorful bread is a goal worth pursuing.
Just got suggested this video and you have earned a new subscriber. Bread baking and peer reviewed science and food safety and preferments? You're speaking my language!
I am an avid pizza maker due to family members that do not want the commercial pizza. So this information is extremely important for me. As some of my dough never gets the results I want. I used to use poolish. Will go back💜🌹🏆🏆🏆
Question 1: I have just begun to learn about Tangzhong and Yudane. I have not yet attempted to use this method in making this recipe. However, I keep copious and accurate notes on each bake. I promise I will report to you my findings. I typically bake 2-3 times a week baking 8 loaves each time. Question 2: refer to question 1. 😊 Question 3: I have a separate room in my home I call “The Bakery”. I typically start the autolyse at 5:00 am. The room is in the low 60’s but warms up to the upper 70’s in about an hour. That number will change as we move into the summer. I keep a record of time, room temperature and dough temperature among other metrics. If I could, I would bake all day, every day. Right now, I am working to raise the funds to build a micro-bakery. So, work gets in the way of my passion. I am an amateur baker.
I completed yesterday and taste tested this morning. The results: I made the Yudane version first. As a control, I used the exact same ingredients and amounts. I always measure in grams. The next day, I made the original recipe. Again, I followed the controls. The results: The crust on the Yudane bread was wonderfully chewy. The crumb in the Yudane version was moist, tighter and had a nicer "mouth feel". The Autolyse only version, crust was chewy but less so. the crumb was looser yet had good structure. When I buttered a non-toasty slice the butter wanted to tear the crumb. Not so on the Yudane version. I will try a third test utilizing the Yudane method along with the Autolyse method. The recipe is simple: bread flour, whole grain flour, water, yeast, salt, oats, olive oil, and honey or molasses. I am heading out now to deliver bread to the local food bank. Cheers!🙂@@NovitaListyani
I only clicked on this video bc I was wondering what preferments were, and they're not applicable to me as I'm not planning on baking any bread. (I thought it was about fermenting veggies like kimchi.) Wow, Novita doesn't mess around; you better know what you're talking about if you're going to challenge her 😏
RESPECT! Your assertions are correct about preferments. If you've done the work and made many mistakes, you know that it takes days to reach the same level of flavor using cold fermentation in a refrigerator as a simple overnight preferment, much less a mother dough. At our restaurant, we have the room necessary to store 5 days worth of dough during the off-season. During high season, we use a poolish mixed the night before. We only have 2-3 days worth of storage during summer and there's no way to use our off-season method.
Thank you for sharing the video! It was incredibly informative. However, I'm struggling to grasp the argument regarding contamination and health risks. After reviewing Steven Pao's study and examining the graphs, it's stated that "According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, toxicity becomes a concern when S. aureus populations exceed 5 log CFU/g." Surprisingly, the study itself revealed that these levels were never surpassed at 21°C. In my view, it seems misleading to cite this study because, if we maintain the dough at 5°C, the two bacteria investigated in the study will never surpass 5 log CFU/g. Also, S. aureus demonstrated no significant changes when fermenting at 21°C. As for S. enterica, it reached 4.5 log CFU/g after 24 hours at 21°C, and given the study's findings regarding the correlation between temperature rise and bacterial growth increase, it's reasonable to assume that fermenting at 5°C would keep the bacterial count much closer to the initial value of 2.5 log CFU/g. Furthermore, it's worth noting that the recommended fridge temperature falls between 2-4°C, which contradicts the argument since it's below the 5°C threshold.
Thank you for your comment. At 14:07 we said “The no-knead dough method of bread making is a variation of bread making using the long fermentation method, which is a popular method regularly practiced by many artisan and home bakers alike.” When we talk about the no-knead dough method, we have in mind one of its popular versions using stretch-and-fold(s) as shown in the video. In this version of the method, you perform a series of stretch-and-folds for a considerably long duration at room temperature which can correlate to the situation described in the paper we talked about. That’s one. Now, for the kind of “purest” no-knead method, where you mix the ingredients together, and then leave in the fridge to rise over a long period of time. This is fine as long as the fridge’s temperature is actually below 5°C, which unfortunately, as you can see from some of the comments from our viewers below, is not always the case when it comes to home kitchens. Over filling is one of the major causes, along with setting the fridge to the wrong temperature. Although we did extensive research on this area before quoting this specific paper, in hindsight, we should have spent more time talking about this in the video. Among the many pieces of information that we didn’t mention: “Salmonella Outbreak Linked to Flour” www.cdc.gov/salmonella/infantis-03-23/index.html “Molecular and epidemiologic analysis of a county-wide outbreak caused by Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Enteritidis traced to a bakery” bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-4-48 “A multi-state outbreak of Salmonella serotype Thompson infection from commercially distributed bread contaminated by an ill food handler” www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/multistate-outbreak-of-salmonella-serotype-thompson-infection-from-commercially-distributed-bread-contaminated-by-an-ill-food-handler/D3D87B3A98C50E40E2C33E92B0A5FCC7 “An outbreak of food-borne salmonellosis linked to a bread takeaway shop in Ben Tre City, Vietnam” www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971214015513 “A Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak linked to Vietnamese bread rolls in South Western Sydney, Australia, 2015” www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5516397/ “A Food-Borne Outbreak of Gastroenteritis Caused by Different Salmonella Serotypes in 2 Universities in Xiamen, Fujian, China, in 2012” www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/yoken/68/3/68_JJID.2014.235/_article/-char/ja/ We didn't put this information in because there wasn't a confirmed link between what we said and what happened in these outbreaks, but they do at least settle that cross contamination can lead to serious health risks, and the first link mentioned above is quite a concern, because it is in the flour. While such contamination might be very rare, but it did happen recently, and long fermentation could exacerbate the problem. That’s why we stressed on cross contamination, at 16:09 we said: “but here is the issue, during the course of bread making you may unintentionally initiate cross-contamination of other foods and utensils. Case in point, say, you made more than one batch of bread, the baked bread that is being handled in between the processing of another bread dough can be vulnerable to post baking contamination.” We also want to note that even though harmful pathogens are neutralized by baking, some of the toxins they produce have extreme temperature resistance, either cold or hot, so technically speaking, it's already a problem if these pathogens can grow in the bread dough at all. To make it clear, at 16:44 in the video, we also said “Although it’s true that bread made with long fermentation turns out fine most of the time” But again, I want to stress here that low risk doesn’t mean no risk.
But even if you consider that most folds are done at room temperature, let's say 21°C, the bacteria levels don't go above dangerous levels even after 24 hours in that room. The famous no knead recipe by Jim Lahey, which is also the one used in the study, states that one should ferment for 12h in 70°F (21°C). So I do not think we need to worry about cross contamination here because the levels never go above 5 log CFU/g at that temperature according to the study you link. Regarding refrigeration concerns, if one's refrigerator consistently maintains temperatures above 5°C, it would compromise the safety of all stored food, not just the dough, making the dough the least of their worries. Furthermore, focusing on fermenting at 5°C, as highlighted in your video, offers an additional layer of safety against salmonella, further mitigating any potential risks.
In your argument, you continue to mention that the bacteria levels never go beyond dangerous levels, even after 24 hours. That is indeed true, but saying that out of context is very misleading. In the paper, the researchers make clear that they inoculated low levels of S. enterica and S. aureus. You can also find this information at 14:31 in our video, we said “in the study, the researchers found that low levels, around 398 colony-forming unit/g [around 2.6 log CFU/g] of introduced Salmonella enterica and Staphylococcus aureus can multiply significantly overnight in no-knead, slow-rise dough despite the presence of high levels, more than 10 million colony-forming unit/g [> 7 log CFU/g] of active fermenting yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae.” I will also remind you that these pathogens aren't just uncommon microbes that you find in a select few places, they are found in many products that enter the household, including fruits, vegetables, raw meat, and more. The actual levels in a home kitchen where people cook often may be relatively low but they might not be as low as in the study. Not to mention the fact that in a laboratory, after the dough has been inoculated, it is put into sterile conditions resulting in no more cross contamination, in the home kitchen, the dough may not be so fortunate. Let's not even mention that people often work with their bread dough right after chopping salad or making an omelet. I also want to stress that you seem to disregard the paper's use of the term, significant growth. While the levels of bacteria remain below the danger level in the study, the fact that such a low level and one time inoculation could result in significant growth is a serious issue, especially when paired with what I mentioned above. Now, on the danger levels mentioned, although 5 log CFU was used as a threshold, I will repeat again that the paper notes that as few as 15-20 Salmonella cells can cause salmonellosis. This is a serious issue, that cannot be downplayed or said to be alright. I hope you take more consideration before writing things that concern people's health.
I started baking bout a month ago. I watched and listened to all this lady had to say..I didn't understand hardly any of it. I read the comments and people say wow this is just what I've been looking for..Bravo...now I get it.. I'm going to forget I even saw this and push on ward with learning the art of bread making.
Yes begin and inch by inch your hands will teach your head what you want to know next. Bread-making is an international craft. I just wish that despite war and famine and poverty, everyone can access the flour and internet to master it.
This is so essential to anyone wanting to bake at home or professionally. I think that today we've even dumbed down home baking by either insisting on using commercial yeast, loading sugar to "prove" yeast that was recently purchased, or these huge videos about the making of sourdough that sounds more like a massive chemical experiment, than thinking it out by remembering the cooks of the early days of our continent and on the settling of the Plains and the West Coast who had to make their own Barm! and they didn't want to make bread that was full of holes and was so sour and "stinky" so that the kids wouldn't eat it. Your presentation make so much sense ! I've been baking for 40 years for my family and friends and I have always sought to bake the most naturally as possible. I've always had the best success by pre-fermenting my starter. I've also learned that sourdough starter is almost indestructible unless you burn it as we do in the oven... or so I thought and I've found that it doesn't really all die and there is a fermentation that keeps on going after a bread is baked. Well constructed and naturally fermented dough either with wild yeast or commercial yeast is always delicious, healthy and is almost close to hypoallergenic !
Holy cow, my slow brain hurts. I agree with Novita, pre ferments are much better. I have a 12 year old starter (it might be much older) It's so strong that it's scary. I'm a lucky man. Baking bread is very satisfying. 77 year old Texan here.
I’ve watched some of your videos and love the science in understanding what is happening when I make poolish, pre-forment. This video was a little over my head but I’m understanding a lot more. Thank you for sharing this wealth of information. 🌹
I watched this and found it not just very well made but well documented as well and super informative. I have one question concerning moving from a quick system to using a poolish. I recently started baking 100% spelt bread but it requires 7g or 21 grams of fresh yeast which speeds the whole process up significantly. I normally finish getting it to the oven in just about 2 hours and it turns out wonderful but I want to reduce the amount of yeast using a poolish. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions on how to make the transition from lots of yeast to a little? Thanks in advance.
I appreciate all the research that seemingly has gone into this interesting and very well made video and if your argument is which method is theoretically safer when fermenting at 5c or greater (which nobody does when long fermenting dough), then a preferment may be better in that respect but that is bringing a new aspect to the preferment vs long fermentation discussion in order to skew the argument in preferments favour. If, however, you stay on the original topic of which produces better bread with better flavour then no amount of scientific paper citations will give you that answer, you simply must test both methods and from my 20+ years of experience a long fermentation wins ever time with better flavour and better texture. Not only is the bread or pizza dough better tasting with long fermentation, but it is also easier to make and takes less of my time. That doesn’t mean I never use a preferment - if I am having a big pizza night I will use a Biga rather than a long ferment as I wouldn’t have space in my fridge for that much dough and using a Biga will definitely result in a better dough than a short ferment without it.
Sure, random internet person I've never met before (who for all I know could just be a bot), whatever you say (sarcasm). Speaking more seriously, I rather put my trust in what the science says than trust in the words of some rando on the internet being contrarian.
@@jessejarmon2100 Fortunately for you, you don't have to know me or believe me or worry whether I am a bot or not. All you have to do is experiment for yourself and find out.
The science says that a long cold bulk fermentation improves flavour. The author of the video says "...you still don't get a good quality bread" at 33:40, which is a statement not backed by any science at all, and is also blatantly false. There's a lot of interesting information in this video and it's definitely a case for using preferments (which I sometimes do), but she's really stretching the argument against long bulk fermentation. @@jessejarmon2100
@@keithweiland Experimentation is unnecessary when I can just listen to what they science says, because I know for a fact it will be far better than anything I make via trial & error. Maybe instead of riding on your high horse, you should give science a try.
It's definetely good to know about the risks about cross contamination and the bad microorganisms. It would be nice if they did another study at colder temperatures though. In our bakery we make a cold proofed spelt-potato bread and it ferments for 20+ hours in a cold enviroment. Germanys food safety is really strict so I don't think it can be that risky to cold proof bread. Yeah pre ferment decreases the risk but let's say you make a poolish with 50% of the total flour in the bread and proof it for 20 hours in the fridge . If you handle the preferment and the resulting dough you still have to be careful and avoid cross contamination .(Because it was in the temperature danger zone for longer than 4-6 hours) The risk is still there,it's just less likely. I really hope they do more studies.
This should lead to a Novita Listyani X ChainBaker collab video. We're ALL learning. This includes our teachers. Viewpoints and procedures evolve with time and education. No lines need to be drawn in the sand.
Thanks for the great explanations. Previously, I had thought that preferments vs Long Fermentation just developed different distributions of microorganisms, but I didn't know about the room temp pathogens. I started baking with Hamelman's "Bread" and quickly found the most success with an overnight room temperature poolish for high whole grain breads. BTW, French bakers would have said "Polonaise" for Polish so the origin of "poolish" is mysterious. I resisted sourdough because it seemed too complicated. Finally, during COVID, I bought "Bittman Bread" which preaches Mark Bittman's sourdough technique. All I ever got were some very tasty frisbees. But I really wanted to use the sourdough rye chapter in "Bread"; I finally got a nice rye culture going and I make Hamelman's 100% Workday whole wheat and various ryes from "Bread" and "The Rye Baker". Nearly all of these use a levain which ferments from 12-16 hrs at room temp.
From Page 42 of "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Raymond Calvel, I quote here "The poolish is a relatively liquid fermented culture, leavened with baker's yeast in advance of dough mixing and prepared with only part of the flour and water. When the dough is made, the rest of the flour, water, yeast, and salt are added, and an appropriate production schedule is then followed until the baking of the bread is completed. This method of breadmaking was first developed in Poland during the 1840s, from whence its name. It was then used in Vienna by Viennese bakers, and it was during this same period that it became known in France." The renowned Professor Raymond Calvel (1913 - 30 August 2005) was a bread expert and professor of baking at ENSMIC in Paris, France. (source: Wikipedia)
@@NovitaListyani From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-ferment "The common, but undocumented, origin given for the term poolish is that it was first used by Polish bakers around 1840, hence its name, and as a method was brought to France in the beginning of the 1920s. "Poolish" however is an old English version of "Polish", whereas the term seems to be most used in France (where "polonais" is the word for "Polish"). Some nineteenth-century sources use the homophone "pouliche", a French word that typically means a filly.[15] With either spelling, the term only appears in French sources towards the last part of the nineteenth century. There is not currently any credible explanation for the origin of the term." The origin of the term "poolish" is unknown but the attribution to Polish bakers is a widely spread invented etymology. I used an overnight poolish for yeasted breads for years before I finally got my rye sourdough culture going, and got a B & T proofer.
Hmm, I remember reading that Wikipedia article, and then later on, I was somehow convinced by "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Calvel and didn't give it a much consideration, now, come to think of it, it's kind of unusual. Thank you so much for raising this issue.
Very high quality material, amazing author. At minute 12 we see why western style of bread is to ferment in a fridge. Despite the flavour I think fermentation is mainly to reduce phytic acid in pH around 4.5 so that we can get any good from grains. Here in Poland we are more focused on rye and ancient rye than wheat. I would go further - took grain and ferment/sprout a whole then blend (possibly in vacuum). Buckwheat sprouts very fast and it easy to blend, rye is not. Then we must add proteins and a bit dry flour to hold shape so trial and error needed. We are concerned about chemicals added to bread but wait - natural enzymes added reduces during baking to amino acids right?
Good Morning Seraphine. This is a follow-up to a previous post about the affect of TangJhong/Yudane/scalded flour to a bread recipe created by the food scientist for Grand Central Bakery designed to feed the food insecure on the West Coast primarily. The first bake I attempted a 1 to 1 flour/water and added it to the overall recipe. The recipe calls for preferment and an autolyse but I chose not to use the autolyse in this experiment. Also, I did not add or subtract any ingredients during the bake. The result was a slightly smaller loaf. The second experiment I chose to stay closer to the recipe. The evening before the bake, I created the preferment and the Yudane. I chose to keep the hydration ratio (64%) the same as the Autolyse to keep the math simple. I prepped the Yudane the evening before as well. On day two, I used the remaining flour (whole grain and bread flour mix) and water to create the Autolyse. I let the Autolyse rest for an hour. I also removed the preferment and Yudane from the fridge at the same time. (I create my preferment in the mixing bowl) After one hour, I add the Yudane to the preferment by adding small chunks in until nearly fully incorporated. I then add the Autolyse in small chunks until fully incorporated. I then add the yeast and mix for 5 min. I then add the salt and mix for 15 minutes on speed (4). (I have an Ankarsrum) Window pane test. Add the oatmeal porridge. Rest in proofer for 30 min. Strech and fold. Rest 30 min (until doubled). Rough shape rounds. Rest 20 min. Shape loaves. Proof 1 hour. Bake at 375 for 50 min. Results: The overall result was spectacular! The loaves went from typical, stodgy, healthy bread to a soft, springy, moist loaf. I have successfully baked the Yudane method twice with the same result. Now, I will need some feedback from my target audience: food insecure seniors in the Federal Way, Washington area. Thank you for your inspiration!!!
I prefer a cold ferment in the fridge over a preferment. Why? Less work, less steps, less complexity. I've never had my dough weaken from it as mentioned in this video, though it might happen in a week+ of dough sitting in the fridge, which I have not done.
rly interesting. I have my whole doughs in the fridge daily. Downside is, the focaccia/baguette are more chewy, more crust. Maybe i give poolish/biga a chance.
When I see these arguments online, all I read is "I'm too lazy to commit to this one extra step, so I'll ruin it for everyone"! With that said, I don't use poolish when I make pizzas at home, simply because I don't have the right oven setup to make a pizza that'll taste good with poolish, so I just skip it. I have made bread with preferment before though and it was amazing.
I think a case can also be made for having a bit of OCD. 🙂I love these videos because the level of detail, research backing and factual analysis are just superb! I also happen to have this obsessive-compulsive need to understand everything, and so for me, these videos are perfect. Plus, the end results can be easily incorporated into whatever I'm making. My current learning project is all about tangzhong, which I learned all about in one of your other videos. Thank you very much for all your work!
@@cvan1075 I, too, read it as "preferment," meaning some sort of legal issue like an access easement. LOL! And no, the tangzhong isn't the same as pre-fermenting.
Awesome video! Now I know why my non sourdough bread turned out better with a poolish. I wasn’t going to have time to bake sourdough loaf , but I didn’t want to throw out half of my sourdough starter so I just used less yeast, the starter in my regular dough. I had a pleasant mistake.
I wish you would write a book on bread with the science. I found one of your videos and have watched most of the baking ones since. A book with the research that you have done would be so useful to understanding what to do with bread.
I'm very confused by this food safety point, maybe someone can help clarify? Dough is a microbial risk until it becomes acidic, okay, sure. But a yeasted preferment doesn't start out acidic; it develops acidity through fermentation. If the preferment can go through a non-acidic phase without food safety risk, why can't a long-fermenting straight dough do the same?
Excellent video. How about enriched doughts? Since we use milk on them, is biga a better option so we can put more milk in the final recipe? Can we mix a pre-ferment with a Tanzong Method so we can get a softer texture? But how we do that without substituting almost all milk of the recipe with water? There's a better way to do it?
@hi Novita, congratulations for this once more great video . On a different note I have a question, I have a gas oven with 3 options to bake … normal baking , conv. Baking and air fryer … do you have a position if I can use the air fryer baking setting instead of the convectional baking ? and assuming I will use it at the same temp that I use to bake the yeast bread ?
Thank you for your kind comment. As for your oven, I have yet to experiment with the air fryer or look into the science of it, so I'm not sure I can be of much help.
Excellent video very educational Definitely done all your research well presented Very clear precise and definition of baking is a science ,we've been doing for a long long time .compliments on your video👍
Would you please do an analysis and guidance on pasta madre or lievito madre? The most difficult part of doing that is to balance of the acids and the production of dextrins while keeping yeast active. Thanks.
Cannot over estimate how much I love this channel. Meaning I really really love this channel. ...An average room temperature of 27-29 C? Mine is 17-19 C. So there is significant variable.
Wow. That was way over my head but really enjoyed it. She is obviously a science lover. 😊 Great video. Look forward to many more as a fairly new bread baker.
Do you have any information about autolyses. I remember a time when I used to autolyses bread overnight and in the morning we would feed it with a starter and make loaves out of them, they would taste cheesey. Thank you for this! Now I know what I have been doing with more details. Thank you!
From page 31 of "Taste of Bread" by Raymond Calvel, the inventor of Autolyses, I quote: " Dough Autolysis: During experiments in 1974, Professor Calvel discovered that the rest period improves the links between starch, gluten, and water, and notably improves the extensibility of the dough. As a result, when mixing is restarted, the dough forms a mass and reaches a smooth state more quickly. Autolysis reduces the total mixing time (and therefore the dough's oxidation) by approximately 15%, facilitates the molding of unbaked loaves, and produces bread with more volume, better cell structure, and a more supple crumb. Although the use of autolysis is advantageous in the production of most types of bread, including regular French bread, white pan sandwich bread and sweet yeast doughs, it is especially valuable in the production of natural levain leavened breads."
@@NovitaListyani wow, that's extremely fascinating!!! Thank you for the insight! Because I used to do this before. Now I can see the importance of doing it. My friend told me that this method was used a lot in France, and he went to a bakery where the baker would autolyse the dough overnight as well and make only baguettes with it. I also noticed that when I added my starter to this long autolyse dough the fermentation process was faster compared to doughs I would make with pre ferments as well. Thanks once again!
@@NovitaListyani Considering the food safety paper you cited, the overnight autolyse the commenter mentions would be a contamination risk unless kept in very cool conditions since it doesn't contain starter bacteria. Agree?
14:57 That "danger zone"of temperatures referenced by the FDA is intended to promote refrigeration (or maintaining sufficiently hot temperatures in prepared foods) as a way to minimize the growth of bacteria, for concerns of of food borne illness in retail settings. It is a little strange to then use that to imply refrigeration is included in the danger zone, when avoiding that is the raison d'être for refrigeration. Otherwise, I appreciate your content, and even the 'spice" in the beginning, directly addressing previous bad arguments by commenters.
The paper directly mentions home settings, not retail settings. I believe danger zones apply everywhere that microbes grow, which includes the average kitchen. In ideal conditions, with temperatures below 5°C, refrigerators would indeed be out of the danger zone, but this isn't always the case in home kitchens. Factors that can contribute to a warm fridge include overfilling and setting it to the wrong temperature, both of which could happen in a lot of households.
@@NovitaListyani Understood. But my point was that those FDA standards are made with retail settings specifically in mind, and are fairly conservative due to an understanding that any standards set will not be perfectly followed- due to variability in equipment, conditions, systems, and personnel. They are a public health level entity after all. I am not saying not be to be cautious, but realistic about what is likely in your home given your practice. Refgerated dough that is properly handled and cooked is a very low risk food. That being said, I especially agree with you that people do not appreciate the issues of cross contamination and that they do not realize that many foods like supermarket flour should be assumed to be contaminated with pathogenic bacteria. While not quite chicken (which approaches 100% of pathogenic bacterial contamination), it is best to treat raw flour as if it contaminated. We in the US have had several pathogenic E Coli and Salmonella outbreaks over recent years. These end up being recalled, but the potential is always there.
As mentioned in this video, we quoted this part directly from the paper: “The food safety concern associated with the possible growth of Salmonella enterica in no-knead dough is similar to that of thawing raw poultry at room temperature.” 15:38
@@NovitaListyani And what I said above gives context to that quote. They are saying there is a shared concern, but no one is arguing equal risk. High levels of enteric bacteria is on nearly all chicken that anyone buys in a supermarket (particularly campylobacter, Klebsiella, and salmonella).That isn't necessarily true for flour, but the risk is high enough that we have to act like it is.
@@NovitaListyani even if you're quoting the paper, they're being very unspecific and probably mean if you Ferment it at higher temperatures (38°C) because at those temps, the log CFU/g exceeds 5, which is dangerous. But at 21°C it never exceeds 5. The quote you use doesn't apply to fermenting at 21°C, let alone 5°C.
Thanks for the video, but the food safety information seemed at least somewhat in error. The "danger zone" is between 40 and 140°F. So if you're doing a cold ferment in the fridge, the temperature should be below 40°F. So even if you had a toxin producing bacterium like S. Aureus, if you mixed a contaminated dough and placed it immediately into the fridge, you would not have appreciable growth or toxin production for at least a couple days.
Do you have a video where you taste the different methods side by side? If not, i would obviously be very interesting in such a video. All this science is of course nice, but in the end we have to eat the products and the question arises how much of a difference it makes and if it's worth the effort. Great video! I'm very impressed that you even had the idea to look at the scientific litearature. Most people never go there.
Poolish is a excellent for making pizza or breads at home, in terms of artisan bakes none of the places I worked in Poland keep the dough in the fridge.
I just discovered your videos last night and have been blown away by your incredibly detailed and informative discussions. The section on the dangers cross-contaminatiom by no knead dough is something should be heard/read by every bread baker. I'm primarily a sourdough baker and haven't made no knead bread since I first started baking, but in all the years I've made bread, I've never heard anything about this. I truly can't believe that this isn't commonly known information. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I really, REALLY appreciate it!
Thank you for your kind comment, and I'm happy to hear that the information was useful to you!
Indeed, the dangers of contamination can be quite serious and should be known by more people. I've read enough about unfortunate outbreaks to be worried 😨
This is the most accurate and studied resume of the bread making process. In my professional experiece using exactly to the point everything that is explained by evidence
, I must say that this is an extraordinary and precise resume. Thanks for your incredibly dedication and efforts.
Thanks for sharing!
there is also just a very simple, pragmatic reason for using them: I can let my preferment pretty much sit around for ages until it develops a nice, boozy aroma and even if the gluten is completely gone by the time I end up using it, I will still make good bread, because only a small fraction of the flour is used for the preferment. If I cold ferment the whole thing for a long time (especially rye or anything with a high enzyme activity) you can absolutely fuck up and overdo it and by the time you want to bake your bread it is already overfermented. so I would argue preferments just give you more control over the process.
Can the missing gluten then just be replaced by swapping in a little gluten flour?
I have been making sourdough bread for about 15 years and only this year started using a preferment. It took my 2 day bread making to 3 days but the flavor is worth it. I only knew a little of the science behind it but got most of my information from reading professional baking books and adapting it to my starter. You have greatly increased my knowledge of the science behind the art of breadmaking. I don't use commercial yeast, but all of the information you provided was useful. Thank you!
Thank you too! Glad to read your comment.
This was incredible. I’ve been a pretty obsessed sourdough enthusiast for the last year. And I had heard some of this science but this was by far the most comprehensive explanation I’ve come across.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Hello I have just discovered this channel and i am already a fan. I am a professional baker with over 40 years experience and i find your mix of science and practically so refreshing, I am always on the lookout for new ideas and knowledge and here I believe I can find something new, The methods you are demonstrating are not new to me but the explanations are giving me a lot of new ideas, there is nothing in the world more satisfying to me than the sight of a perfect bread coming out of the oven and I believe you may be able to help me do my job better. Thank you
Thank you! Glad to hear from a seasoned baker with such a long experience. A better insight can indeed bring out many untapped wonders of bread making.
Wow! Wow! Wow! This is a master's class for all bread makers. And outstanding presentation of the various components that interplay in bread making. Just sensational.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The only logical explanation I’ve ever heard in this most frustrating and complicated matter
This is an underrated channel with great content. Please Novita and Seraphine, use ads to grow your channel. It really worth a try at least.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Please list who underrated it. Thank you.
TH-cam's algorithm. I have been looking for a channel like this and only just discovered it.@williamfotiou7577
@@williamfotiou7577I think they are saying it doesn't get the attention it deserves.
@coridaw715 attention and being underrated have 2 different connotations. But......I'm old enough to understand that. When you say " this is underrated " it's actually an insult or backhanded compliment. Can you please comment back after your 16th birthday. Thank you
Brava!!! I had been searching TH-cam for precisely this type of information that no cookbook on baking provides. Thank you! ❤
"Handbook on Sourdough Biotechnology" by Marco Gobbetti, Michael Ganzle
Excellent review as always. Worth emphasizing that a huge benefit of preferments is when it comes to enriched doughs. A long fermentation will end up with a very different, less desirable chemical profile and lack any control.
Indeed, having too many aroma compounds isn't necessarily a good thing.
Wow. What a presentation I really learned a lot. I've been watching a lot of baking vid lately and I'm so happy to discover this channel. This is on the university lectures level. I watched a lot of it during the lockdown just for a change and been a fan of Joanne Chang since then. You are now part of that list.
Thank you for sharing. I'll definitely binge-watch in this channel.❤
Kudos😊
Thanks
wow!
especially thanks for the glutathione info ...
been doing 100% biga-no-stress (18C 18hours) with 'poor' flour in tropics,
90F 90%Humidity ... recently tried some glutathione,
not understanding it would make the poor flour weaker for pizza,
and overferement fast/fall down ...
now using a pinch of vitamin C powder/ascorbic acid
with some better results on increasing dough strength
and dough ballls for pizza ...
its about balance sometimes .... expereince.
thanks for sharing ur work ... Good Stuff!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video as usual. To be honest the levain aspect of bread baking was my Eureka moment 1 month ago. No one really spelled it out to me exactly and I was in the mindset, that well yeah there are these vague benefits but people claim they have great bread without them so in my mind it was just a recipe thing. Than I realised that this is the essence of taste and structure and all of these aromas. Than I realised there are recipes that have multi stage levains with specific tempartures in different stages just to get the right balance of microorganisms and compounds mix. Than YT notified me about your video just adding the science behind it :) Awesome and keep it up. Love your channel and also the "no BS baking" channel :)
It's worth mentioning that as home bakers we are not that much confined by the economy of baking so we can have a wider playing field by experimenting with combining sourdough starter derived levains with yeasted preferments in a single recipe. Food for thought :D
Thank you for sharing!
Wow, these information are so comprehensive and scientific especailly presented by a young lady in 34 minutes. You really spend quite time to dig out so much information and thanks for sharing these on the TH-cam channel. God bless you !
The most comprehensive video out of hundreds I've seen on this topic. I understood around 70% of it.
I'd love if you could do a deep dive into what you said about flour to water ratios in levain - how can I vary those ratios to get my desired characteristics?
We actually have an old video on sourdough and levain, maybe you want to check it out: th-cam.com/video/-T__DFw-awI/w-d-xo.html
@@NovitaListyani Amazing! Thanks
I heard the argument from ChainBaker (great experiment but I don't agree on everything he do... because the result are not always great).
At first it seemed to me that it made sense but then by doing some tests I realized that there were differences (not big, but the difference were actually there). That's why I started to use them again at least if I don't use lievito madre (sourdough starter)... if I decide to just make fast bread I don't make a preferment but I also don't use the fridge... less flavour but if I want to use the bread for scarpetta or a sandwitch I'm not eating just bread alone (and it's still good, after all it still got maillard reaction. Not complex like sourdough bread or bread made with preferment, but still fresh bread)... sometimes I just add greek yogurt or whey from the greek yogurt that I create at home or even lemon juice... both are acidic and add flavour without the need for a long fermentation.
But this was still interesting, I only did research by trying some recipes... I didn't know the science behind it.
And I finally understand why fresh baker's yeast give me better result than dry yeast too.
The only point I have some doubts about is the contamination problem. Not because it isn't true and possible, but simply because I have noticed that we as modern day humans often tend to exaggerate with health regulations. An example is the total ban on raw milk. Which is true, even in the best of situations it can be contaminated... But in reality in a controlled context it comes out practically sterile from the cow and is immediately refrigerated. Pasteurization does eliminate this initial risk, but only until the milk package is opened. At that point a new contamination can occur which, if milk is consumed without boiling it immediately before, after several days can be similar to that of raw milk.
The problem is also that pasteurized milk has a different flavor and different characteristics (it is terrible for creating cheese for example).
Same thing with making mayonnaise at home from raw eggs... it's not 100% safe, but mayonnaise is still sour from winegar or lemon juice, most of the times it should be fine.
In general I believe that food contamination is quite inevitable. Obviously using common sense and washing your hands and keeping work tools clean are good practices in the kitchen and pure and simple common sense, but I don't think that making bread with the no knead method by doing a long fermentation in the fridge, then cooking the bread, has such a high risk of creating a culture of salmonella sufficient to defeat a healthy individual's immune defenses and cause significant harm. It is possible, but it's like not crossing the street because a car can kill you... or using a sourdough starter made at home (it's sour but nobody know what's really inside).
Bacteria are found everywhere, the idea is to prevent harmful bacteria from multiplying enough to cause damage, a baked product like bread is basically quite low risk by nature, because the intense heat will kill most of the bacteria. Even if there is some cross-contamination the new colony of salmonella will be small and the baked bread is not so full of water as the dough so it will be a more difficult environment even without sour.
Knowing the information that preferments can reduce the contamination problem while creating better bread is great information, but I think the alarm is a bit exaggerated about the safety of long fermentation.
She's using a lot of researched data to make her case, but you use nothing more than your mere speculation. In case you didn't know, salmonella outbreak can kill and had killed many. Even if the probability isn't high, but the impact is fatal. You need to respect people who value their life more than bravado.
@@maertscisum I just don't think worrying about everything is a good way to enjoy life and I don't need to support that with data.
Also the reason I said is not really common is because it is not really common.... there are already many laws to avoid that kind of contamination at the source so what you buy at the supermarket is usually safe (and even what you buy from farmer is usually safe too at least here in Italy laws are strict for selling anything food related). Contamination need time and the right environment that's a fact (bacteria will multiply over time like yeast in bread making and it is a fact that a sourdough starter is sour and it's not a good environment for a lot of bad bacteria).
Common sense like washing the hand and keep the kitchen clean are ways to avoid contamination that's a fact too.
Even if there is salmonella inside the bread dough high temperature kill it, that's also a fact, that's why she said the problem can be cross contamination after baking.
They are all common knowledge that are even in the video accepted as common knowledge so I don't need to support any of that with data. And I don't think home baker's can analyze their own sourdough starter every time they bake with it so they accept the risk that there is some crazy things inside it that's not good... Like we all accept the risk to cross the street and be killed by a crazy car.
I did not say to run over the car. It is important to keep hands and tools clean when you cook, but once you have done that there is still a chance to be hit by a car.... No reason to live like that car is waiting for you and avoid experiments and fun in the kitchen. And yes salmonella outbreak can kill a lot of people, but that's true for cars too but most people still own one or even two (I don't own a car btw). We do dangerous stuff everyday. Irrational things too like ban raw milk from the supermarket but still sell poison like cigarettes and alcohol (these too kill a lot of people... BTW I don't drink and I don't smoke).
I like your general attitude however, I believe the parents of the toddlers that were infected by salmonella in Alberta’s daycare centers are now scared because they relied on the public health officers to discover the source of food contamination before the outbreak and it was not “common-sense” that prevented the outbreak that affected 3 locations but scientific research to prevent continued contamination and illness.
@@maertscisum have you read the paper she cited about the bacterias? Even the paper she cited doesn't prove her point. They showed in the paper that at 21°C, neither bacteria exceeded the level of what they themselves claimed to be dangerous (5 log CFU/g). So assuming we ferment at 5°C, how do you expect it to be anywhere near dangerous according to that study? It's easy to just throw a study at people and hope they don't read it. It's funny though when the study she uses to prove her point actually does the opposite.
@@cvan1075so use your common sense to read the study and see that it doesn't prove the point she's making.
I’ve just began my pizza dough journey and I have been racking this question in my head for months now. I’m so happy I stumbled upon this video
I'm fairly new with sourdough although I did, as a child, make yeast bread with mom. I have checked out so many channels trying 2 learn the secrets of sourdough bcuz I like the flavor & I love the idea of being that 'Baking Grandma,' lol!
U have given me so much 2 think about & it may take awhile 2 sort thru things in my head but I know I'm going 2 watch more of ur channel! Thank u 4 ur research, love of baking & education of ur fellow man! U did it with dignity & class! Bravo!
Thanks for sharing!!
Wow, such a thorough approach to your topics. I love it. Plus I was introduced by you to something I have never heard of before, namely Yudane in bread baking. I am learning so much. Keep it up girl!
Thanks!
I came to baking with a history in brewing/distilling, where it's understood you give the yeast a "head start" before adding to your wort, so that they can better out-compete any undesired yeasts or fungi. It never even occurred to me NOT to preferment!
Indeed, giving the yeast a head start is crucial. Thank you very much for sharing.
You compressed a week length lecture to a 30 min video. lol. I also watched those videos that claimed using preferment is not necessary for home bakers. I thought it was pretty interesting perspective, but now you convinced me that's not a good idea. Thanks for the detailed information. I'm gonna watch this video again to swallow. I'm gonna use poolish again.
Glad it was helpful!
I agree with your main points. Just ignore the ignorant people and let them continue with their subpar ways.
This video is how I discovered your channel and you made me an instant fan. I'm a fan of preferments, and more so always trying to learn and talk about food chemistry and food science. Next time I deal with someone on preferments, I can just link your video rather than type a wall of text! Thank you for making this video!!!!!!
Thank you too!
@@NovitaListyani You're welcome! You did an amazing job on this video!
Thank you for the video! It was really informative. I always love to find people on the Internet that are intensely passionate about a topic. Don't let the negativity get to you!
Thank you for your kind comment!
Love the content. I feel like professional bakers lack resources like this to help them hone in on their craft. There are rules of thumb and learning by experience, and countless baker influencers, but this video provides the knowledge for a baker to begin crafting their own path in a purposeful, scientific way. Much much love. No Ads please: sell me your cookbooks, online courses, and such.
As a long time baker, I still learn so much from you! Thank you for your wonderful channel!!
Thank you for your kind words!
I can listen to your lectures for hours!! I make challa every friday and it comes out so good after learning so much from you.
Wonderful!
I dont use Poolish yet but i use the Yudane method and my challa comes out nice and fluffy. I will give a Poolish a try. @@NovitaListyani
I and i am sure a lot of your viewers and fans would love to see a video of you baking a traditional Challa. Please do!! @@NovitaListyani
I've done both! Prefermintes and overnight. PREFERMINTES MUCH BETTER!!! Such a beautiful flavor boost,simular to sour dough❤❤❤ Thanks for your expertise
Casual baker here, loved the video.
Praise be to the algorithm for bringing me here.
Thank you so much for the research and time you put in these videos. This is the best content a geeky home baker like me can wish for!
Our pleasure!
You are my new hero. Thank you for the education!
To elaborate on my admiration: I bake part time for a nonprofit where the bread I bake ends up at the local Food Bank feeding seniors. I want to “meddle” with the recipe I have to bake just a bit. So I understand….I can take 25% of the total flour and water, Scald it, leave it in the fridge overnight then assemble the bread in the morning. Is this the general idea? There is also an autolyse component where I hydrate the remaining flour for an hour and a half. I think I can figure this out. If you don’t mind, I will let you know the results. (I’ve baked over 300 loaves of this recipe in the past 6 months) PS: For my on-going education, I will consume the rest of your training videos. I will be adding knowledge to knowledge to knowledge making me a better baker.
I am fascinated by your channel, I have only seen two videos now, but each look like a project for a college thesis!
I love how you make the scientific terms more approachable but not infantilize us, as if the common public wasn't able to understand 'big words', or make a google search for definitions.
It's so sad that the Internet mixes people with so much talent and who make great efforts to produce quality content, and people who will not finish watching your video before spilling their thoughts mindlessly. It's something that we have to endure when we let everyone talk in any conditions 😂
Thank you very much for your educative videos, it's been an instant follow!
Thank you and welcome 😊
Quite amazing . I can only imagine how much time was involved in this presentation.
Makes me feel happy I always stick with using a preferment !
Loving the science and logic of the process you describe in such exquisite detail! Thank you!!!
Glad you liked it!
This is the first video I’ve seen of this channel, immediate sub. She came out SWINGING!
10 minutes in I am loving this, so much. Salty academic mic drop. And I'm learning nuance. I'm very happy.
Great to hear!
Really interesting Seraphine! Thank you! Going to have to watch this one again!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Seraphine, is it possible we could get an explanation of the differences between wheat flours? And the ones we should avoid, if there are any. Thanks!
Have you watched this video: th-cam.com/video/uNoxI1-jA88/w-d-xo.html ?
I have not, thank you!@@NovitaListyani
"Just one word: EXEMPLARY EXPERTISE. Kudos to you for providing the most instructive explanation of the processes I've come across."
I now feel like I have a Phd in bread baking. Wow, this video was awesome. Great work! Instantly subscribing!
Wow. This is incredible. I wish i was more of an audible learner. I need flow charts, graphs, and ...maybe i need a book with lots of pictures because flavorful bread is a goal worth pursuing.
Just got suggested this video and you have earned a new subscriber. Bread baking and peer reviewed science and food safety and preferments? You're speaking my language!
I am an avid pizza maker due to family members that do not want the commercial pizza. So this information is extremely important for me. As some of my dough never gets the results I want. I used to use poolish. Will go back💜🌹🏆🏆🏆
Question 1: I have just begun to learn about Tangzhong and Yudane. I have not yet attempted to use this method in making this recipe. However, I keep copious and accurate notes on each bake. I promise I will report to you my findings. I typically bake 2-3 times a week baking 8 loaves each time.
Question 2: refer to question 1. 😊
Question 3: I have a separate room in my home I call “The Bakery”. I typically start the autolyse at 5:00 am. The room is in the low 60’s but warms up to the upper 70’s in about an hour. That number will change as we move into the summer.
I keep a record of time, room temperature and dough temperature among other metrics.
If I could, I would bake all day, every day. Right now, I am working to raise the funds to build a micro-bakery. So, work gets in the way of my passion.
I am an amateur baker.
Thanks!
I completed yesterday and taste tested this morning. The results: I made the Yudane version first. As a control, I used the exact same ingredients and amounts. I always measure in grams. The next day, I made the original recipe. Again, I followed the controls. The results: The crust on the Yudane bread was wonderfully chewy. The crumb in the Yudane version was moist, tighter and had a nicer "mouth feel". The Autolyse only version, crust was chewy but less so. the crumb was looser yet had good structure. When I buttered a non-toasty slice the butter wanted to tear the crumb. Not so on the Yudane version. I will try a third test utilizing the Yudane method along with the Autolyse method. The recipe is simple: bread flour, whole grain flour, water, yeast, salt, oats, olive oil, and honey or molasses. I am heading out now to deliver bread to the local food bank. Cheers!🙂@@NovitaListyani
I only clicked on this video bc I was wondering what preferments were, and they're not applicable to me as I'm not planning on baking any bread. (I thought it was about fermenting veggies like kimchi.) Wow, Novita doesn't mess around; you better know what you're talking about if you're going to challenge her 😏
RESPECT! Your assertions are correct about preferments. If you've done the work and made many mistakes, you know that it takes days to reach the same level of flavor using cold fermentation in a refrigerator as a simple overnight preferment, much less a mother dough. At our restaurant, we have the room necessary to store 5 days worth of dough during the off-season. During high season, we use a poolish mixed the night before. We only have 2-3 days worth of storage during summer and there's no way to use our off-season method.
Thank you for your feedback, it's nice to have your input.
Thank you for sharing the video! It was incredibly informative.
However, I'm struggling to grasp the argument regarding contamination and health risks.
After reviewing Steven Pao's study and examining the graphs, it's stated that "According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, toxicity becomes a concern when S. aureus populations exceed 5 log CFU/g." Surprisingly, the study itself revealed that these levels were never surpassed at 21°C.
In my view, it seems misleading to cite this study because, if we maintain the dough at 5°C, the two bacteria investigated in the study will never surpass 5 log CFU/g. Also, S. aureus demonstrated no significant changes when fermenting at 21°C. As for S. enterica, it reached 4.5 log CFU/g after 24 hours at 21°C, and given the study's findings regarding the correlation between temperature rise and bacterial growth increase, it's reasonable to assume that fermenting at 5°C would keep the bacterial count much closer to the initial value of 2.5 log CFU/g.
Furthermore, it's worth noting that the recommended fridge temperature falls between 2-4°C, which contradicts the argument since it's below the 5°C threshold.
Thank you for your comment. At 14:07 we said “The no-knead dough method of bread making is a variation of bread making using the long fermentation method, which is a popular method regularly practiced by many artisan and home bakers alike.” When we talk about the no-knead dough method, we have in mind one of its popular versions using stretch-and-fold(s) as shown in the video. In this version of the method, you perform a series of stretch-and-folds for a considerably long duration at room temperature which can correlate to the situation described in the paper we talked about. That’s one. Now, for the kind of “purest” no-knead method, where you mix the ingredients together, and then leave in the fridge to rise over a long period of time. This is fine as long as the fridge’s temperature is actually below 5°C, which unfortunately, as you can see from some of the comments from our viewers below, is not always the case when it comes to home kitchens. Over filling is one of the major causes, along with setting the fridge to the wrong temperature. Although we did extensive research on this area before quoting this specific paper, in hindsight, we should have spent more time talking about this in the video. Among the many pieces of information that we didn’t mention:
“Salmonella Outbreak Linked to Flour”
www.cdc.gov/salmonella/infantis-03-23/index.html
“Molecular and epidemiologic analysis of a county-wide outbreak caused by Salmonella enterica subsp. enterica serovar Enteritidis traced to a bakery”
bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-4-48
“A multi-state outbreak of Salmonella serotype Thompson infection from commercially distributed bread contaminated by an ill food handler”
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/multistate-outbreak-of-salmonella-serotype-thompson-infection-from-commercially-distributed-bread-contaminated-by-an-ill-food-handler/D3D87B3A98C50E40E2C33E92B0A5FCC7
“An outbreak of food-borne salmonellosis linked to a bread takeaway shop in Ben Tre City, Vietnam”
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971214015513
“A Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak linked to Vietnamese bread rolls in South Western Sydney, Australia, 2015”
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5516397/
“A Food-Borne Outbreak of Gastroenteritis Caused by Different Salmonella Serotypes in 2 Universities in Xiamen, Fujian, China, in 2012”
www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/yoken/68/3/68_JJID.2014.235/_article/-char/ja/
We didn't put this information in because there wasn't a confirmed link between what we said and what happened in these outbreaks, but they do at least settle that cross contamination can lead to serious health risks, and the first link mentioned above is quite a concern, because it is in the flour. While such contamination might be very rare, but it did happen recently, and long fermentation could exacerbate the problem. That’s why we stressed on cross contamination, at 16:09 we said: “but here is the issue, during the course of bread making you may unintentionally initiate cross-contamination of other foods and utensils. Case in point, say, you made more than one batch of bread, the baked bread that is being handled in between the processing of another bread dough can be vulnerable to post baking contamination.”
We also want to note that even though harmful pathogens are neutralized by baking, some of the toxins they produce have extreme temperature resistance, either cold or hot, so technically speaking, it's already a problem if these pathogens can grow in the bread dough at all.
To make it clear, at 16:44 in the video, we also said “Although it’s true that bread made with long fermentation turns out fine most of the time”
But again, I want to stress here that low risk doesn’t mean no risk.
But even if you consider that most folds are done at room temperature, let's say 21°C, the bacteria levels don't go above dangerous levels even after 24 hours in that room. The famous no knead recipe by Jim Lahey, which is also the one used in the study, states that one should ferment for 12h in 70°F (21°C). So I do not think we need to worry about cross contamination here because the levels never go above 5 log CFU/g at that temperature according to the study you link.
Regarding refrigeration concerns, if one's refrigerator consistently maintains temperatures above 5°C, it would compromise the safety of all stored food, not just the dough, making the dough the least of their worries.
Furthermore, focusing on fermenting at 5°C, as highlighted in your video, offers an additional layer of safety against salmonella, further mitigating any potential risks.
In your argument, you continue to mention that the bacteria levels never go beyond dangerous levels, even after 24 hours. That is indeed true, but saying that out of context is very misleading. In the paper, the researchers make clear that they inoculated low levels of S. enterica and S. aureus. You can also find this information at 14:31 in our video, we said “in the study, the researchers found that low levels, around 398 colony-forming unit/g [around 2.6 log CFU/g] of introduced Salmonella enterica and Staphylococcus aureus can multiply significantly overnight in no-knead, slow-rise dough despite the presence of high levels, more than 10 million colony-forming unit/g [> 7 log CFU/g] of active fermenting yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae.”
I will also remind you that these pathogens aren't just uncommon microbes that you find in a select few places, they are found in many products that enter the household, including fruits, vegetables, raw meat, and more. The actual levels in a home kitchen where people cook often may be relatively low but they might not be as low as in the study. Not to mention the fact that in a laboratory, after the dough has been inoculated, it is put into sterile conditions resulting in no more cross contamination, in the home kitchen, the dough may not be so fortunate. Let's not even mention that people often work with their bread dough right after chopping salad or making an omelet.
I also want to stress that you seem to disregard the paper's use of the term, significant growth. While the levels of bacteria remain below the danger level in the study, the fact that such a low level and one time inoculation could result in significant growth is a serious issue, especially when paired with what I mentioned above.
Now, on the danger levels mentioned, although 5 log CFU was used as a threshold, I will repeat again that the paper notes that as few as 15-20 Salmonella cells can cause salmonellosis. This is a serious issue, that cannot be downplayed or said to be alright. I hope you take more consideration before writing things that concern people's health.
I started baking bout a month ago. I watched and listened to all this lady had to say..I didn't understand hardly any of it. I read the comments and people say wow this is just what I've been looking for..Bravo...now I get it.. I'm going to forget I even saw this and push on ward with learning the art of bread making.
Yes begin and inch by inch your hands will teach your head what you want to know next. Bread-making is an international craft. I just wish that despite war and famine and poverty, everyone can access the flour and internet to master it.
This is so essential to anyone wanting to bake at home or professionally. I think that today we've even dumbed down home baking by either insisting on using commercial yeast, loading sugar to "prove" yeast that was recently purchased, or these huge videos about the making of sourdough that sounds more like a massive chemical experiment, than thinking it out by remembering the cooks of the early days of our continent and on the settling of the Plains and the West Coast who had to make their own Barm! and they didn't want to make bread that was full of holes and was so sour and "stinky" so that the kids wouldn't eat it. Your presentation make so much sense ! I've been baking for 40 years for my family and friends and I have always sought to bake the most naturally as possible. I've always had the best success by pre-fermenting my starter. I've also learned that sourdough starter is almost indestructible unless you burn it as we do in the oven... or so I thought and I've found that it doesn't really all die and there is a fermentation that keeps on going after a bread is baked. Well constructed and naturally fermented dough either with wild yeast or commercial yeast is always delicious, healthy and is almost close to hypoallergenic !
Thanks for sharing. Really really appreciate your comment.
Holy cow, my slow brain hurts. I agree with Novita, pre ferments are much better. I have a 12 year old starter (it might be much older) It's so strong that it's scary. I'm a lucky man. Baking bread is very satisfying. 77 year old Texan here.
Thanks for sharing!
I’ve watched some of your videos and love the science in understanding what is happening when I make poolish, pre-forment. This video was a little over my head but I’m understanding a lot more. Thank you for sharing this wealth of information. 🌹
I watched this and found it not just very well made but well documented as well and super informative. I have one question concerning moving from a quick system to using a poolish. I recently started baking 100% spelt bread but it requires 7g or 21 grams of fresh yeast which speeds the whole process up significantly. I normally finish getting it to the oven in just about 2 hours and it turns out wonderful but I want to reduce the amount of yeast using a poolish. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions on how to make the transition from lots of yeast to a little? Thanks in advance.
Thank you for your comment. We haven't done that many experiments with spelt bread yet, so sorry for not to be able to help.
Just amazing ! This is a really valuable video ! Thank you !
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you! I appreciate you sharing your obviously vast knowledge and understanding. You have answered a question I had been pondering for a while.
You are so welcome!
I appreciate all the research that seemingly has gone into this interesting and very well made video and if your argument is which method is theoretically safer when fermenting at 5c or greater (which nobody does when long fermenting dough), then a preferment may be better in that respect but that is bringing a new aspect to the preferment vs long fermentation discussion in order to skew the argument in preferments favour. If, however, you stay on the original topic of which produces better bread with better flavour then no amount of scientific paper citations will give you that answer, you simply must test both methods and from my 20+ years of experience a long fermentation wins ever time with better flavour and better texture. Not only is the bread or pizza dough better tasting with long fermentation, but it is also easier to make and takes less of my time. That doesn’t mean I never use a preferment - if I am having a big pizza night I will use a Biga rather than a long ferment as I wouldn’t have space in my fridge for that much dough and using a Biga will definitely result in a better dough than a short ferment without it.
Sure, random internet person I've never met before (who for all I know could just be a bot), whatever you say (sarcasm). Speaking more seriously, I rather put my trust in what the science says than trust in the words of some rando on the internet being contrarian.
@@jessejarmon2100 Fortunately for you, you don't have to know me or believe me or worry whether I am a bot or not. All you have to do is experiment for yourself and find out.
The science says that a long cold bulk fermentation improves flavour. The author of the video says "...you still don't get a good quality bread" at 33:40, which is a statement not backed by any science at all, and is also blatantly false. There's a lot of interesting information in this video and it's definitely a case for using preferments (which I sometimes do), but she's really stretching the argument against long bulk fermentation. @@jessejarmon2100
@@keithweiland Experimentation is unnecessary when I can just listen to what they science says, because I know for a fact it will be far better than anything I make via trial & error. Maybe instead of riding on your high horse, you should give science a try.
@@jessejarmon2100 Science is experimentation, what you are talking about is religion, believing what you are told rather than testing for yourself.
It's definetely good to know about the risks about cross contamination and the bad microorganisms. It would be nice if they did another study at colder temperatures though. In our bakery we make a cold proofed spelt-potato bread and it ferments for 20+ hours in a cold enviroment. Germanys food safety is really strict so I don't think it can be that risky to cold proof bread. Yeah pre ferment decreases the risk but let's say you make a poolish with 50% of the total flour in the bread and proof it for 20 hours in the fridge . If you handle the preferment and the resulting dough you still have to be careful and avoid cross contamination .(Because it was in the temperature danger zone for longer than 4-6 hours) The risk is still there,it's just less likely. I really hope they do more studies.
This should lead to a Novita Listyani X ChainBaker collab video. We're ALL learning. This includes our teachers. Viewpoints and procedures evolve with time and education. No lines need to be drawn in the sand.
This explains so wonderfully and thoroughly what I didn’t know I knew lol. THANK YOU for this deep dive!
Thanks for the great explanations. Previously, I had thought that preferments vs Long Fermentation just developed different distributions of microorganisms, but I didn't know about the room temp pathogens. I started baking with Hamelman's "Bread" and quickly found the most success with an overnight room temperature poolish for high whole grain breads. BTW, French bakers would have said "Polonaise" for Polish so the origin of "poolish" is mysterious. I resisted sourdough because it seemed too complicated. Finally, during COVID, I bought "Bittman Bread" which preaches Mark Bittman's sourdough technique. All I ever got were some very tasty frisbees. But I really wanted to use the sourdough rye chapter in "Bread"; I finally got a nice rye culture going and I make Hamelman's 100% Workday whole wheat and various ryes from "Bread" and "The Rye Baker". Nearly all of these use a levain which ferments from 12-16 hrs at room temp.
From Page 42 of "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Raymond Calvel, I quote here "The poolish is a relatively liquid fermented culture, leavened with baker's yeast in advance of dough mixing and prepared with only part of the flour and water. When the dough is made, the rest of the flour, water, yeast, and salt are added, and an appropriate production schedule is then followed until the baking of the bread is completed. This method of breadmaking was first developed in Poland during the 1840s, from whence its name. It was then used in Vienna by Viennese bakers, and it
was during this same period that it became known in France."
The renowned Professor Raymond Calvel (1913 - 30 August 2005) was a bread expert and professor of baking at ENSMIC in Paris, France. (source: Wikipedia)
@@NovitaListyani From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-ferment "The common, but undocumented, origin given for the term poolish is that it was first used by Polish bakers around 1840, hence its name, and as a method was brought to France in the beginning of the 1920s. "Poolish" however is an old English version of "Polish", whereas the term seems to be most used in France (where "polonais" is the word for "Polish"). Some nineteenth-century sources use the homophone "pouliche", a French word that typically means a filly.[15] With either spelling, the term only appears in French sources towards the last part of the nineteenth century. There is not currently any credible explanation for the origin of the term." The origin of the term "poolish" is unknown but the attribution to Polish bakers is a widely spread invented etymology. I used an overnight poolish for yeasted breads for years before I finally got my rye sourdough culture going, and got a B & T proofer.
Hmm, I remember reading that Wikipedia article, and then later on, I was somehow convinced by "Taste of Bread" by Prof. Calvel and didn't give it a much consideration, now, come to think of it, it's kind of unusual. Thank you so much for raising this issue.
Thanks!
Thank you
Only one thing to say... Very well done and thanks!
Very high quality material, amazing author. At minute 12 we see why western style of bread is to ferment in a fridge. Despite the flavour I think fermentation is mainly to reduce phytic acid in pH around 4.5 so that we can get any good from grains. Here in Poland we are more focused on rye and ancient rye than wheat. I would go further - took grain and ferment/sprout a whole then blend (possibly in vacuum). Buckwheat sprouts very fast and it easy to blend, rye is not. Then we must add proteins and a bit dry flour to hold shape so trial and error needed. We are concerned about chemicals added to bread but wait - natural enzymes added reduces during baking to amino acids right?
Wow amazing, detailed, and very informative. Can't wait for new videos!
Good Morning Seraphine. This is a follow-up to a previous post about the affect of TangJhong/Yudane/scalded flour to a bread recipe created by the food scientist for Grand Central Bakery designed to feed the food insecure on the West Coast primarily.
The first bake I attempted a 1 to 1 flour/water and added it to the overall recipe. The recipe calls for preferment and an autolyse but I chose not to use the autolyse in this experiment. Also, I did not add or subtract any ingredients during the bake. The result was a slightly smaller loaf.
The second experiment I chose to stay closer to the recipe. The evening before the bake, I created the preferment and the Yudane. I chose to keep the hydration ratio (64%) the same as the Autolyse to keep the math simple. I prepped the Yudane the evening before as well.
On day two, I used the remaining flour (whole grain and bread flour mix) and water to create the Autolyse. I let the Autolyse rest for an hour. I also removed the preferment and Yudane from the fridge at the same time. (I create my preferment in the mixing bowl)
After one hour, I add the Yudane to the preferment by adding small chunks in until nearly fully incorporated. I then add the Autolyse in small chunks until fully incorporated. I then add the yeast and mix for 5 min. I then add the salt and mix for 15 minutes on speed (4). (I have an Ankarsrum)
Window pane test. Add the oatmeal porridge. Rest in proofer for 30 min. Strech and fold. Rest 30 min (until doubled). Rough shape rounds. Rest 20 min. Shape loaves. Proof 1 hour. Bake at 375 for 50 min.
Results: The overall result was spectacular! The loaves went from typical, stodgy, healthy bread to a soft, springy, moist loaf. I have successfully baked the Yudane method twice with the same result. Now, I will need some feedback from my target audience: food insecure seniors in the Federal Way, Washington area.
Thank you for your inspiration!!!
I prefer a cold ferment in the fridge over a preferment. Why? Less work, less steps, less complexity. I've never had my dough weaken from it as mentioned in this video, though it might happen in a week+ of dough sitting in the fridge, which I have not done.
rly interesting. I have my whole doughs in the fridge daily. Downside is, the focaccia/baguette are more chewy, more crust. Maybe i give poolish/biga a chance.
I have found a person who knows what she is talking about and can help people like me to improve my bread making.
Awesome, love all the explanation, lot of information is just a few minutes
Glad you enjoyed it!
When I see these arguments online, all I read is "I'm too lazy to commit to this one extra step, so I'll ruin it for everyone"! With that said, I don't use poolish when I make pizzas at home, simply because I don't have the right oven setup to make a pizza that'll taste good with poolish, so I just skip it. I have made bread with preferment before though and it was amazing.
I think a case can also be made for having a bit of OCD. 🙂I love these videos because the level of detail, research backing and factual analysis are just superb! I also happen to have this obsessive-compulsive need to understand everything, and so for me, these videos are perfect. Plus, the end results can be easily incorporated into whatever I'm making. My current learning project is all about tangzhong, which I learned all about in one of your other videos. Thank you very much for all your work!
Thanks!
Oh ! Just read the term tangzhong in Cook’s Country and now have to learn-if that is what a preferment is. I thought pre-ferment was prefer-ment
@@cvan1075 I, too, read it as "preferment," meaning some sort of legal issue like an access easement. LOL! And no, the tangzhong isn't the same as pre-fermenting.
A very intelligent and clear presentation. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Awesome video! Now I know why my non sourdough bread turned out better with a poolish. I wasn’t going to have time to bake sourdough loaf , but I didn’t want to throw out half of my sourdough starter so I just used less yeast, the starter in my regular dough. I had a pleasant mistake.
Wonderful!
Thinking about arguing with Seraphine on the merits of pre-ferments? Gotta say it: "That's a bad idea."
First time watching your channel but this episode is outstanding, thank you for your work!
Glad you enjoy it!
I wish you would write a book on bread with the science. I found one of your videos and have watched most of the baking ones since. A book with the research that you have done would be so useful to understanding what to do with bread.
Maybe one day!
I'm very confused by this food safety point, maybe someone can help clarify? Dough is a microbial risk until it becomes acidic, okay, sure. But a yeasted preferment doesn't start out acidic; it develops acidity through fermentation. If the preferment can go through a non-acidic phase without food safety risk, why can't a long-fermenting straight dough do the same?
Thanks for your great informative video. I use preferments often and it's great to understand the science better thanks to you.
Omg, what she said😂 feel like I now have a doctorate in yeast. Very very thorough, thank you.
Excellent video. How about enriched doughts? Since we use milk on them, is biga a better option so we can put more milk in the final recipe? Can we mix a pre-ferment with a Tanzong Method so we can get a softer texture? But how we do that without substituting almost all milk of the recipe with water? There's a better way to do it?
Thank you for your comment. You may want to check out this video: th-cam.com/video/hd-vdRnb-JI/w-d-xo.html
@@NovitaListyaniThank's.
@hi Novita, congratulations for this once more great video .
On a different note I have a question, I have a gas oven with 3 options to bake … normal baking , conv. Baking and air fryer … do you have a position if I can use the air fryer baking setting instead of the convectional baking ? and assuming I will use it at the same temp that I use to bake the yeast bread ?
Thank you for your kind comment. As for your oven, I have yet to experiment with the air fryer or look into the science of it, so I'm not sure I can be of much help.
@@NovitaListyani great …. I will wait for your evidence based advice as usual 👏👏👏
Excellent video very educational Definitely done all your research well presented Very clear precise and definition of baking is a science ,we've been doing for a long long time .compliments on your video👍
Thanks for watching!
Would you please do an analysis and guidance on pasta madre or lievito madre? The most difficult part of doing that is to balance of the acids and the production of dextrins while keeping yeast active. Thanks.
Thank you for the suggestions.
Love the detailed scientific information. Amazing job.
Very well presented and explains a lot about bread making.
Thanks for watching
Don’t let the negative posters get to you. Obviously, they don’t appreciate or understand your passion and devotion to research.
Cannot over estimate how much I love this channel. Meaning I really really love this channel. ...An average room temperature of 27-29 C? Mine is 17-19 C. So there is significant variable.
thanks! Yes, indeed, the temperature here can be "very ideal" for fermentation :)
wow its incredible how knowledgeable you are
Wow. That was way over my head but really enjoyed it. She is obviously a science lover. 😊
Great video. Look forward to many more as a fairly new bread baker.
Possibly the cutest bread girl on the internet. And super smart. You tell them!
This is such a great info on this topic, thanks for the work and sharing. Greetings.
And this was an incredibly informative and erudite lesson. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Do you have any information about autolyses. I remember a time when I used to autolyses bread overnight and in the morning we would feed it with a starter and make loaves out of them, they would taste cheesey. Thank you for this! Now I know what I have been doing with more details. Thank you!
From page 31 of "Taste of Bread" by Raymond Calvel, the inventor of Autolyses,
I quote: " Dough Autolysis: During experiments in 1974, Professor Calvel discovered that the rest period improves the links between starch, gluten, and water, and notably improves the extensibility of the dough. As a result, when mixing is restarted, the dough forms a mass and reaches a smooth state more quickly. Autolysis reduces the total mixing time (and therefore the dough's oxidation) by approximately 15%, facilitates the molding of unbaked loaves, and produces bread with more volume, better cell structure, and a more supple crumb. Although the use of autolysis is advantageous in the production of most types of bread, including regular French bread, white pan sandwich bread and sweet yeast doughs, it is especially valuable in the production of natural levain leavened breads."
@@NovitaListyani wow, that's extremely fascinating!!! Thank you for the insight! Because I used to do this before. Now I can see the importance of doing it. My friend told me that this method was used a lot in France, and he went to a bakery where the baker would autolyse the dough overnight as well and make only baguettes with it. I also noticed that when I added my starter to this long autolyse dough the fermentation process was faster compared to doughs I would make with pre ferments as well. Thanks once again!
@@NovitaListyani Considering the food safety paper you cited, the overnight autolyse the commenter mentions would be a contamination risk unless kept in very cool conditions since it doesn't contain starter bacteria. Agree?
Yes
First time here. Fantastic video and information.
Glad you enjoyed it!
14:57 That "danger zone"of temperatures referenced by the FDA is intended to promote refrigeration (or maintaining sufficiently hot temperatures in prepared foods) as a way to minimize the growth of bacteria, for concerns of of food borne illness in retail settings.
It is a little strange to then use that to imply refrigeration is included in the danger zone, when avoiding that is the raison d'être for refrigeration.
Otherwise, I appreciate your content, and even the 'spice" in the beginning, directly addressing previous bad arguments by commenters.
The paper directly mentions home settings, not retail settings. I believe danger zones apply everywhere that microbes grow, which includes the average kitchen.
In ideal conditions, with temperatures below 5°C, refrigerators would indeed be out of the danger zone, but this isn't always the case in home kitchens. Factors that can contribute to a warm fridge include overfilling and setting it to the wrong temperature, both of which could happen in a lot of households.
@@NovitaListyani Understood. But my point was that those FDA standards are made with retail settings specifically in mind, and are fairly conservative due to an understanding that any standards set will not be perfectly followed- due to variability in equipment, conditions, systems, and personnel. They are a public health level entity after all. I am not saying not be to be cautious, but realistic about what is likely in your home given your practice. Refgerated dough that is properly handled and cooked is a very low risk food.
That being said, I especially agree with you that people do not appreciate the issues of cross contamination and that they do not realize that many foods like supermarket flour should be assumed to be contaminated with pathogenic bacteria. While not quite chicken (which approaches 100% of pathogenic bacterial contamination), it is best to treat raw flour as if it contaminated. We in the US have had several pathogenic E Coli and Salmonella outbreaks over recent years. These end up being recalled, but the potential is always there.
As mentioned in this video, we quoted this part directly from the paper: “The food safety concern associated with the possible growth of Salmonella enterica in no-knead dough is similar to that of thawing raw poultry at room temperature.” 15:38
@@NovitaListyani And what I said above gives context to that quote. They are saying there is a shared concern, but no one is arguing equal risk. High levels of enteric bacteria is on nearly all chicken that anyone buys in a supermarket (particularly campylobacter, Klebsiella, and salmonella).That isn't necessarily true for flour, but the risk is high enough that we have to act like it is.
@@NovitaListyani even if you're quoting the paper, they're being very unspecific and probably mean if you Ferment it at higher temperatures (38°C) because at those temps, the log CFU/g exceeds 5, which is dangerous. But at 21°C it never exceeds 5. The quote you use doesn't apply to fermenting at 21°C, let alone 5°C.
❤ the science. Now I know why my beginner’s sourdough is not rising enough. Gotta watch this vid again. Thank you, Seraphine!
is there any specific changes or adjustments i would need to make when using freshly milled flour?
Thanks for the video, but the food safety information seemed at least somewhat in error. The "danger zone" is between 40 and 140°F. So if you're doing a cold ferment in the fridge, the temperature should be below 40°F. So even if you had a toxin producing bacterium like S. Aureus, if you mixed a contaminated dough and placed it immediately into the fridge, you would not have appreciable growth or toxin production for at least a couple days.
Do you have a video where you taste the different methods side by side? If not, i would obviously be very interesting in such a video.
All this science is of course nice, but in the end we have to eat the products and the question arises how much of a difference it makes and if it's worth the effort. Great video! I'm very impressed that you even had the idea to look at the scientific litearature. Most people never go there.
Poolish is a excellent for making pizza or breads at home, in terms of artisan bakes none of the places I worked in Poland keep the dough in the fridge.