BW OU meta is so weird to me, every time I look at it I'm just like what the heck this is a thing really? Like I'm sure it all makes sense when you look at the complete history of it, but as someone who played heavily in DPP days and kinda skipped gens 5 and 6 looking at what modern BW OU bans and allows always has me lost. Like I never thought I'd hear the words "Sun Stall", or see all sleep moves banned, or dugtrio banned but shadow tag allowed, or the banning of specific abilities on the same team. So many things are entirely unique to BW.
@@bmac4 why do you watch BKC just to hate on Smogon? He only uploads Smogon content. Anyways, no, people look at what in the metagame is generally OP, uncompetitive, or overall unhealthy and try to ban those first. People are wrong sometimes but VGC doesn't even ban anything sooo...
@@musique-ef3rz VGC doesn't ban anything? Excuse me? They previously didn't, but series 6 saw bans. Now obviously those same banned pokemon aren't as dominant nor seemingly as viable as they once were. Example being cinderace or togekiss. They're incredibly easy to deal with now that pokemon like landorus are back, not to mention glastrier just being such a mix of bulk and hard hitting.
@@ArtisChronicles yes but they didn't ban them because they were determined by the community to be broken/unhealthy on their own merits. They were banned because gamefreak wanted to see new mons used, so they just dropped off the top 10 in usage in BSS and VGC and banned those. Were some of them broken? Likely. It is however very unlikely that every single one of them were separately broken ina meta without each other. Also, of course mons like Cinderace are healthy with new added mons: it's a completely different meta. This means that these mons are probably checked by a lot of the new mons. For example, OU banned Cinderace before Crown Tundra, as it had 1 very good set that could break nearly all walls and force a certain select few pokemon on every team. Now, Cinderace isn't even on the radar, as Heatran doesn't care about anything but high Jump Kick. This forces it to have a really bad case of Four Moveslot Syndrome. It's also dealt/checked really easily by mons like Lando-T and Fini (in singles too). VGC unbanning the previously banned pokemon (banned arbitrarily, I might add) is a really good move but honestly common sense.
Maybe they should try retesting it. While it might still be too strong (especially b/c grass has a type advantage over both politoed and ttar) the lack of pseudo-guaranteed sun to sweep with is quite a nerf.
@@GrimslyRyuzaki it was banned a long ass time ago. Infinite weather and dugtrio made it absurdly broken and the ban was easily justifiable at the time.
@@Mimi-qe7qz still mad that every time Hail is ever slightly viable thanks to ice body stall it gets instantly banned, just let hail have some competitive use outside of blizzard spam already
@@ImortalZeus13 It’s not even poorly made, low effort maybe, but it’s centered well the background is interesting and doesn’t contrast with the Pokemon and the way their tails/bodies intersect is cool and they are both facing opposite directions.
If you repeal the drought/chlorophyll clause, you aren't just doing a favor for sun teams. There is no "accomodating" for tiering. You either do it because full sun teams aren't broken, or you don't because they are.
You had me until you talked about Sun not “needing to be viable in the metagame.” I don’t think a Chlorophyll test would be about that. The question would be closer to, “Is Chlorophyll and Sun still broken or uncompetitive without Dugtrio?” Your reasoning for most things deserving to be banned or deserving to be unbanned have been sound up until this point, but your closing statements in this video seem to be rooted more personally in you not wanting to drastically change BWOU or not caring about sun teams.
many of the arguments for sun have been just that though. if you scroll through the many policy review threads about bw tiering (to say nothing of the common smogon tournament discord arguments), there is a significant number of complaints from established players who argue that bw is more "boring" without sun being viable and that we need more diversity to counteract this. I absolutely agree that dugless chloro's brokenness should be the defining factor, but it is usually secondary or even tertiary in these debates. I will admit I personally do not have any desire to change bw from its current state. post-2016, the meta was constantly in a state of some sort of unbalance; we had to jump through hoops for years, dealing with constant red tape nonsense, and it wasn't until this past year that we finally found ourselves with a genuinely balanced metagame. I am not eager to go messing with that, especially because I do not believe chlorophyll adds anything positive to the metagame (unlike, say, dpp latias, who has contributed many positives). that said, I am no longer a member of the bw council, so it's not even partially up to me anymore, and I can understand chloro being tested. if it is to happen, it will be after spl. thank you for the comment, it's rare that tiering discussions are approached with pertinent logic.
Honestly a huge part of me wishes duggy stayed in gen 5 ou. Mainly so sun would still be good, but also because of how many Pokémon were made unviable because of it being removed. Donphan, ninetales, cresselia and xatu are all unviable now because they only were good on sun. now duggy ninetales and donphan are trapped in a tier they no longer belong in
@@DM-of5sl I'm not sure if Ninetales specifically was ever banned (as I am not sure if it ever dropped to UU) but I know that Sun as a whole is already banned from UU due to Vulpix.
BW used to be my absolute least favourite old gen meta, as an outsider I always thought it was just weather vs weather and I thought it looked boring. However watching your newer videos on the meta has made me learn about all the in depth sets and the thought that goes into building teams and I heavily respect those who play this meta now, a really cool meta and probably one of my all time favourite tiers, ty for enlightening me big bkc
Yeah, I remember disliking the BW meta at first since I thought it was just weather vs weather and power creep, but when I played it a bit in Showdown, it seemed to have grown on me.
Nah, your instincts were correct. Played this and countless other metas, and it’s exclusively the worst tier ever. Totally nonsensical tiring decisions and broken garbage all over the place. Pick your favorite weather and counter other weather is the only way to play with consistent success. No large scale room for creativity nor ingenuity.
I wonder if Sun would be balanced if Chlorophyll was unbanned but Chlorophyll + Growth were banned on the same set. I feel like Sun could use a little bump in the meta but it could be a little unfair considering swift swim and sand rush are still banned as well.
I would assume something stupid like nasty plot/sword dance nonce would take growth's place. Venusaur gets SD and has power whip. Or just specs breaker. Surely the mad lads would figure something.
@@alibaba3568 caring about "stop talking about too OP" would work if BW meta gave a shit. As an outsider of the meta, it looks really fucking dumb and broken in every way.
I wish the sun setter was better. Now Torkoal completely OHKOs non max HP Ttars with Body Press. If Ninetails was able to pull off something like that then Sun would have had a better fighting chance even if not necessarily being viable.
Do you think sun would be viable if Torkoal got drought instead of ninetales? Having a drought user that can spin and set rocks would be amazing for sun and it would heavily alleviate the stealth rock weakness
Sun, juste like Dragmag, is all about overwhelming offense without much longevity, but while Dragmag is actually hard to shut down and play around once started, the slightest breeze can throw the whole sun team into disarray and just let it flail hopelessly against the opponent. Both are fun high risk/high reward playstyle, but one is consistent while the other is not. It's sad for sun but ..... c'est la vie I guess
Hey there! I really like learning about old metas like this cause they are hard to learn with trial and error, so I appreciate that help. If you do another Gen 5 style guide, can you break down sand teams? I am not sure if sand offense is a thing but I’m surprised sand is so dominant when Politoed has a direct advantage over T-Tar, so I’m excited to learn more.
Could you maybe elaborate on your opinion of why clorophil shouldn't be retested? This could be because I'm not particularly familiar with BW but it just sounds like a cool option that wouldn't be that good while adding to the metagame, but at the same time, I can understand how it might make tembuilding even harder and more restrictive, so a test really feels warrented to me
Not gonna lie, there aspect of the permaweater and weater wars of gen V that i miss so much like the viability of some pokemon with weather abilities, see things like ninetales, vaporion, the duo of abomasnow and walrain, the intensity of the war, i think this era was the pick of intensity in pokemon, yeah i am a guy who like feel stress of time on time. Even i dare to propuse to not bring back permaweater but insted bring more time of weather, more than 5/8 turns
I don't think looking at unbanning chlorophyll would just be to bring sun back to the meta, I think it's actually warranted because the ban happened before other nerfs had been put in place and so we don't know if it would still be ban worthy in a post nerfed sun meta
Why is Dugtrio's ability to trap is allowed in Generation 3 and why it isn't as overwhelming as it is in other generations? I'm rather new to Adv, haven't played it much until recently and I noticed Dugtrio is used alot.
In my humble 1400 opinion, it’s because the threats the Dugtrio facilitates and clears the way for are significantly stronger in gens 4 and 5 as opposed to gen 3. No outrage/draco meteor means that having steel types gone is not as strong as it is in 4+5 (amongst many other reasons ofc)
@@Alexcoman51 magneton, ttar, Metagross, blissey are all big targets for dugtrio in gen 3, Magneton as a target is to facilitate Skarmory, Ttar and Metagross can survive at full health but when weakened even slightly fall to earthquake easily, Removing blisse is massive for special attackers against teams that rely on blissey
Just wanted to point out the nicknames in the first replay. Nice to see another Gorguts fan, and Obscura's my favourite death metal album of all time. Does this mean you have a sand team where all the nicknames are Colored Sands song titles?
I know this has probably become a tired meme, but at some point could you do a video on hail teams? Yes, they are unviable. Yes, Abomasnow has one of the worst defensive typings in the game and has mediocre-to-bad stats. Yes, they have no significant advantages. Yes, kyurem is the only "viable" "abuser," and it's not even that good under hail. Nonetheless, could you do a video about 1) what little it can do, if anything, 2) What are its especially bad matchups and 3) possibly some things that would have made it more viable. You could also include some options for teambuilding, like mentioning how valuable heatran is or what the weather can complement, like hazard stacking stall teams or anything else. If nothing else, they are seen in similar usage to sun teams nowadays so yeah.
@@iantaakalla8180 Yeah, both sometimes get brief spurts of usage but if you look at Pikalytics you will rarely find either above 3% usage. No one is willing to put in effort for such troubled playstyles when the rewards aren’t that great and they aren’t very appealing barring a small audience.
The problem with sun is that it’s to little rewards for so much maintenance. Mainly due to the fact that every potential abuser of sun is either inconsistent, better in different roles, or more fragile than a lob of cotton candy thrown in water
Will you ever touch on Clef in BW OU? It’s abundantly clear that Clef in every gen since Gen 4 that Clef has been an amazing mon with amazing immunities to hazard or residual damage, having unprecedented utility, and solid bulk despite not having any of its stats at 100 or higher. With how strong Clef is in DPPT, I would assume it’s an underrated pick in BW due to alot of its best attributes, still holding true in BW just a little worse. Is it unviable, or is it actually unexplored/underrated?
im sorry but clefable has seen so much usage recently in tournament play and i mean dice for one has made countless teams with cleable. Gliscor,Fore and Clef are a pretty common and good defensive core in gen 5 when paired with Hippo or even Abomasnow@@BKCplaysPokemon
For a while I was wondering like why specifically cress is good. Like through the video I was like how come you cant use cress rain. Thanks for sneaking in that part explaining moonlight 👍
I actively played from gen 4 - gen 8. Played tons of various tiers and played in countless showdown tournaments, and I saw a lot of success throughout. Gen 5 OU was my absolute least favorite meta game ever. I hated it so much that I stopped playing OU completely until Gen 6 came out and never came back to it. I didn’t just enjoy playing to win. I liked playing to win while also making lesser popular mons work, as the ladders have always been too easy to just run standard stuff. What I enjoyed the most was experimenting with BL and underrated mons, but the amount of times I’d just auto lose to Toed + Ferro + Tenta + Keld + Latios + Thund/Rachi/Gyara/other rain abuser if I wasn’t running the most optimal mons and sets myself was too frustrating. It’s not like I would purposely run garbage to try to prove something, but there was so little room for innovation.
standard set of Magnezone @ Air Balloon Ability: Magnet Pull EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Modest Nature - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power Fire - Sunny Day - Magnet Rise why not play substitute instead of magnet rise ? why this isn't a option at all ? with substitute you'll not get paralyzed or seed'd by Ferrothorn and then, get stall'd on by the popular substitute Jirachi sets played on rain team. about excadrill, 252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 33-39 (11.7 - 13.8%) not enough to break substitute, and with some luck, the sub will not even break after a second iron head
because the standard excadrill isn't scarfed, and without magnet rise it will simply break balloon then eq you into oblivion. twave/leech ferro is rare now, and even then, it doesn't matter much because your goal is to remove it, and zone's pretty useless afterwards. any non-choiced magnezone will lose most of the time to those jirachi sets anyway.
I’m guessing not, since aside from making blizzard 100% accurate the only advantage of it is that every type other than ice takes damage every turn. And because of that you can only really use ice types or magic guard users on the team, which is really restrictive.
Sun is so bad rn it has an actual room for experimentation, which can lead to pretty wacky teams and playstyles. I personally agree with BKC in the point of sun being utherly worthless currently, however the unexpected sets sun may be running just to ruin that specific playstyle you are using like sand could be worth trying. It actually have a ton of options that could make a sun team """""""good"""""" like sun stall, or sun bulky offense, or yeah maybe even braindead 5 choiced fire types blasting everything. I feel like it could be worth it experimenting with sun because its actually pretty fun and has a lot of flexibility unlike things like rain that already kills 3 slots in order to be defensively OK agaisnt the metagame. Yeah, sun is still bad. But not hail awfull levels and worth a shot imo.
i think sun is worse than hail because at least hail has reliable abusers in abomasnow which beats every weather setter on the switch except ninetales and kyurem-b which loves having an upgraded ice beam on mixed sets and regular kyurem kills everything with specs blizzard and you dont have to focus your team around it meanwhile sun has the worst setter ever forces you to build an entire team around it and is entirely useless without dugtrio or chlorophyll volcarona is cool in sun i guess but it needs spin and is easily revenge killed by just about every dragon ever (scarf latios/scarf chomp, dnite espeed) god i miss sun being usable
Is this the correct order of what team style goes above the other? 1. Sand 2. Rain 3. Drag-Mag 4. Sun 5. Weather less (does this event count as a unique yet defined style or is this the lack of a preset style?) 6.hail I'm not trolling, honestly curious. would it be more accurate to say sand and rain are tied?
@@DM-of5sl I disagree. Especially in SwSh where Hidden Power was taken away (even then it didn't matter much cuz you could EV and/or Assault Vest Lando to where it'd live).
HGSS may be the weakest pokémon game ever I also think Kanto is a great region, but yeah, it get way too much representation by GameFreak compared to other regions.
i think one way you could cimprove your content is explain some of the things that are going on better. the dugtrio stuff was pretty self explanatory but at some points you say something like "look at his pressure, terrrakion, latios, *insert pokemon*, this sun team can't do anything here" and as someone who doesnt play competitive pokemon i have no idea what that means
clorophyl should be retested after the dug and sleep bans. You literally lose nothing because if it ends up being broken, just ban it again. Also the state of the metagame isn't good so there's no reason not to try giving it a second chance
The biggest problem with Sun is a bunch of the better abilities / moves are Grass type whereas Rain boosts Water directly Getting 100% accurate Thunder / Hurricane over a fast-chargìng Solarbeam doesn't hurt either
That's the result of banning Dugtrio, making some teamstyles completely unviable. Okay, you're avoiding cheese trap victories, but you're making two already powerful team styles even more dominant. This is why BW is so closed as a meta, with barely any variety in teams.
do you prefer the existence of "diverse" overpowered/cheese strategies to a balanced metagame that is more conducive to the better player winning (i.e. the reason we have clauses and rulesets to begin with)? because dug was banned with the latter in mind. plus, not that this is a competitive argument at all, but there's still plenty of diversity within sand and rain teams. we've also seen a good amount of solid weatherless teams, both dragmag and non-dragmag.
in the video the 3d models were only used because bw ou at the time was a different metagame on the team builder entirely than today, and because that meta no longer exists, showdown doesnt know to use the sprites, so it uses the models instead there was nothing he could do thats just how showdown works
Good, nothing against Sun per se, but im glad Venusaur stops oneshotting my Team. Why did a plus 3 Lifeorb Dragonite in the Sun not KO Xatu whit Firepunch? Xatu does not have Unaware.
here's that replay I mentioned near the end: replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-451838
Are you winning Sun?
Apparently not.
No, no they aren't >:)
They were... until the ban hammer came down.
no
No Dad, please don’t Moon me 😳
god damn, seeing bw with 3d sprites is cursed
glad someone said it lol
*blessed
@@Eltipoquevisteayer no
it's awful
dugtrio and sleep are now gone, chlorophyll is testable
So all I got from this is that sun is actually extremely viable as long as you don’t use it
BW OU meta is so weird to me, every time I look at it I'm just like what the heck this is a thing really? Like I'm sure it all makes sense when you look at the complete history of it, but as someone who played heavily in DPP days and kinda skipped gens 5 and 6 looking at what modern BW OU bans and allows always has me lost. Like I never thought I'd hear the words "Sun Stall", or see all sleep moves banned, or dugtrio banned but shadow tag allowed, or the banning of specific abilities on the same team. So many things are entirely unique to BW.
Wait shadow tag is allowed? I was not aware of this lol. Do you know why?
Its because Smogon is arbitrary as hell
@@bmac4 why do you watch BKC just to hate on Smogon? He only uploads Smogon content. Anyways, no, people look at what in the metagame is generally OP, uncompetitive, or overall unhealthy and try to ban those first. People are wrong sometimes but VGC doesn't even ban anything sooo...
@@musique-ef3rz VGC doesn't ban anything? Excuse me? They previously didn't, but series 6 saw bans. Now obviously those same banned pokemon aren't as dominant nor seemingly as viable as they once were. Example being cinderace or togekiss. They're incredibly easy to deal with now that pokemon like landorus are back, not to mention glastrier just being such a mix of bulk and hard hitting.
@@ArtisChronicles yes but they didn't ban them because they were determined by the community to be broken/unhealthy on their own merits. They were banned because gamefreak wanted to see new mons used, so they just dropped off the top 10 in usage in BSS and VGC and banned those. Were some of them broken? Likely. It is however very unlikely that every single one of them were separately broken ina meta without each other. Also, of course mons like Cinderace are healthy with new added mons: it's a completely different meta. This means that these mons are probably checked by a lot of the new mons. For example, OU banned Cinderace before Crown Tundra, as it had 1 very good set that could break nearly all walls and force a certain select few pokemon on every team. Now, Cinderace isn't even on the radar, as Heatran doesn't care about anything but high Jump Kick. This forces it to have a really bad case of Four Moveslot Syndrome. It's also dealt/checked really easily by mons like Lando-T and Fini (in singles too). VGC unbanning the previously banned pokemon (banned arbitrarily, I might add) is a really good move but honestly common sense.
Be happy Sun, at least you are not hail.
Read this as "why the sun is no longer visible in BW OU"
I mean that still makes complete sense with rain and sand running around lol
Shouldnt chlorophyll be unbanned now that Dugtrio is gone?
No
Maybe they should try retesting it. While it might still be too strong (especially b/c grass has a type advantage over both politoed and ttar) the lack of pseudo-guaranteed sun to sweep with is quite a nerf.
I think since dug and sleep is gone i think it actally has a chance
You're kidding, they banned chlorophyll?? HAHAHAHA smogon is so shit lmao
@@GrimslyRyuzaki it was banned a long ass time ago. Infinite weather and dugtrio made it absurdly broken and the ban was easily justifiable at the time.
inb4 ppl ask BKC why hail isn't viable in the "weather gen"
Because I'm too busy teching 20% autowin ice punch on my rachi and winning all my gen 4, I mean gen 5 games. Who needs that real 50% ice hail boost?
Because ice type sucks
this aged well lol
@@captainfishhead6389 this aged like an oyster
Sun's horrible, everyone knows the best BW weather was hail.
Eric Lee maybe scarf abomasnow with weather ball raikou offense. (i made that work in dpp somehow)
@@Luna__137 proud of you
@@Luna__137 don't forget walrein the wall!
Nah, it's 🌧️ Rain. It's my favorite
@@Mimi-qe7qz still mad that every time Hail is ever slightly viable thanks to ice body stall it gets instantly banned, just let hail have some competitive use outside of blizzard spam already
Your thumbnails have a very rustic sense to them
He just uses random pngs of old/new pokemon art. It's not rustic it's poorly made lmao
@@ImortalZeus13 that doesn’t mean it ain’t rustic lmao
@@ImortalZeus13 I agree with you, I just didn't want to straight up roast him.
@@ImortalZeus13
It’s not even poorly made, low effort maybe, but it’s centered well the background is interesting and doesn’t contrast with the Pokemon and the way their tails/bodies intersect is cool and they are both facing opposite directions.
If you repeal the drought/chlorophyll clause, you aren't just doing a favor for sun teams. There is no "accomodating" for tiering. You either do it because full sun teams aren't broken, or you don't because they are.
10:50 diglet more viable in OU than half of kanto
Exactly
You had me until you talked about Sun not “needing to be viable in the metagame.” I don’t think a Chlorophyll test would be about that. The question would be closer to, “Is Chlorophyll and Sun still broken or uncompetitive without Dugtrio?”
Your reasoning for most things deserving to be banned or deserving to be unbanned have been sound up until this point, but your closing statements in this video seem to be rooted more personally in you not wanting to drastically change BWOU or not caring about sun teams.
many of the arguments for sun have been just that though. if you scroll through the many policy review threads about bw tiering (to say nothing of the common smogon tournament discord arguments), there is a significant number of complaints from established players who argue that bw is more "boring" without sun being viable and that we need more diversity to counteract this. I absolutely agree that dugless chloro's brokenness should be the defining factor, but it is usually secondary or even tertiary in these debates.
I will admit I personally do not have any desire to change bw from its current state. post-2016, the meta was constantly in a state of some sort of unbalance; we had to jump through hoops for years, dealing with constant red tape nonsense, and it wasn't until this past year that we finally found ourselves with a genuinely balanced metagame. I am not eager to go messing with that, especially because I do not believe chlorophyll adds anything positive to the metagame (unlike, say, dpp latias, who has contributed many positives). that said, I am no longer a member of the bw council, so it's not even partially up to me anymore, and I can understand chloro being tested. if it is to happen, it will be after spl.
thank you for the comment, it's rare that tiering discussions are approached with pertinent logic.
Hey, I really enjoyed watching those teams destroy everything, now I want to make and spam my own sun team.
Honestly a huge part of me wishes duggy stayed in gen 5 ou. Mainly so sun would still be good, but also because of how many Pokémon were made unviable because of it being removed. Donphan, ninetales, cresselia and xatu are all unviable now because they only were good on sun. now duggy ninetales and donphan are trapped in a tier they no longer belong in
To be fair, Ninetales (and sun as a whole) would probably be instantly banned from uu if it dropped :(
@@DM-of5sl I'm not sure if Ninetales specifically was ever banned (as I am not sure if it ever dropped to UU) but I know that Sun as a whole is already banned from UU due to Vulpix.
@@ordeaux26 if that’s the case it’s dropping way lower than UU
@@thebestworst8002 it probably would be outclassed by charizard in nu lol
Why is it so bad if things are unviable agai
BW used to be my absolute least favourite old gen meta, as an outsider I always thought it was just weather vs weather and I thought it looked boring. However watching your newer videos on the meta has made me learn about all the in depth sets and the thought that goes into building teams and I heavily respect those who play this meta now, a really cool meta and probably one of my all time favourite tiers, ty for enlightening me big bkc
Yeah, I remember disliking the BW meta at first since I thought it was just weather vs weather and power creep, but when I played it a bit in Showdown, it seemed to have grown on me.
Nah, your instincts were correct. Played this and countless other metas, and it’s exclusively the worst tier ever. Totally nonsensical tiring decisions and broken garbage all over the place. Pick your favorite weather and counter other weather is the only way to play with consistent success. No large scale room for creativity nor ingenuity.
I wonder if Sun would be balanced if Chlorophyll was unbanned but Chlorophyll + Growth were banned on the same set. I feel like Sun could use a little bump in the meta but it could be a little unfair considering swift swim and sand rush are still banned as well.
I would assume something stupid like nasty plot/sword dance nonce would take growth's place. Venusaur gets SD and has power whip. Or just specs breaker.
Surely the mad lads would figure something.
Sounds like a complex ban after another just to find sth that's not 'too OP'.
@@alibaba3568 caring about "stop talking about too OP" would work if BW meta gave a shit. As an outsider of the meta, it looks really fucking dumb and broken in every way.
I wish the sun setter was better. Now Torkoal completely OHKOs non max HP Ttars with Body Press. If Ninetails was able to pull off something like that then Sun would have had a better fighting chance even if not necessarily being viable.
It can also do significant damage to heatran with body press to, or even earth power if you hate heatran that much.
kevin it's 5 in the morning
Not in euroland
Asia:
he lives in the czech republic which is in europe american the world doesn’t revolve around you
enjoying the "shorter-form" videos, but you're also good at making the > 1hr length feel just as short! interested to see what/when you cover next!
Rain made Sun strictly inferior in expectation like 10 years ago lmao
And then Primal Groudon came and flipped everything on its head
The way I see it, kyogre is surrounded. What's under the ocean? That's right, more earth.
Do you think sun would be viable if Torkoal got drought instead of ninetales? Having a drought user that can spin and set rocks would be amazing for sun and it would heavily alleviate the stealth rock weakness
no, because there still aren't enough good sun abusers to fill a team with while still being able to check the rest of the meta. it'd help though.
Favorite team is that Sun Team and the Rampardos AHHHHHH Team.
Sun, juste like Dragmag, is all about overwhelming offense without much longevity, but while Dragmag is actually hard to shut down and play around once started, the slightest breeze can throw the whole sun team into disarray and just let it flail hopelessly against the opponent. Both are fun high risk/high reward playstyle, but one is consistent while the other is not. It's sad for sun but ..... c'est la vie I guess
Is that a False Swipe Gaming reference
hi bkc, say hi back! glad to see you :)
hi :D
Hey there! I really like learning about old metas like this cause they are hard to learn with trial and error, so I appreciate that help.
If you do another Gen 5 style guide, can you break down sand teams? I am not sure if sand offense is a thing but I’m surprised sand is so dominant when Politoed has a direct advantage over T-Tar, so I’m excited to learn more.
Could you maybe elaborate on your opinion of why clorophil shouldn't be retested? This could be because I'm not particularly familiar with BW but it just sounds like a cool option that wouldn't be that good while adding to the metagame, but at the same time, I can understand how it might make tembuilding even harder and more restrictive, so a test really feels warrented to me
Still love the analysis to bits, thanks for your good work
Looove that old school Sugimori artstyle
Sun with grass banned like it was whole point xD
The baked ☀ viewers: " uh yeah question Mr Kellen, how is that Venasaur outspeeding Scarf-rachi?"
Why not allow chloro + sun again? I dont think any of the chloro sweepers are broken
Yeah if it's all special venusaur heatran walls it. If it packs eq bomb and solarbeam skarm and ferrothorn walls that set.
@@williethenerfherder2193 Weather ball solarbeam eq beats that. Loses to latios but that can be pursuited.
@@MrEntinenweather ball wasn't run with chlorophyll venusaur in gen 5.
@@williethenerfherder2193 HP fire then
@@MrEntinen didn’t venusaur not get weather ball until gen 8?
Not gonna lie, there aspect of the permaweater and weater wars of gen V that i miss so much like the viability of some pokemon with weather abilities, see things like ninetales, vaporion, the duo of abomasnow and walrain, the intensity of the war, i think this era was the pick of intensity in pokemon, yeah i am a guy who like feel stress of time on time.
Even i dare to propuse to not bring back permaweater but insted bring more time of weather, more than 5/8 turns
I don't think looking at unbanning chlorophyll would just be to bring sun back to the meta, I think it's actually warranted because the ban happened before other nerfs had been put in place and so we don't know if it would still be ban worthy in a post nerfed sun meta
I'm early for once!! Great vid as always and congrats on making ST playoffs, top 3 GOATs matchup R1 too 🔥 would love to catch it live
Why is Dugtrio's ability to trap is allowed in Generation 3 and why it isn't as overwhelming as it is in other generations? I'm rather new to Adv, haven't played it much until recently and I noticed Dugtrio is used alot.
In my humble 1400 opinion, it’s because the threats the Dugtrio facilitates and clears the way for are significantly stronger in gens 4 and 5 as opposed to gen 3. No outrage/draco meteor means that having steel types gone is not as strong as it is in 4+5 (amongst many other reasons ofc)
It just depends on the current meta, to see what Dug can be used to trap effectively. Furthermore in Adv there is no team preview
Dugtrio traps like nothing in adv
It also doesn’t help that hidden power grass is very common on most electric types to defeat swampert and it also destroys dugtrio
@@Alexcoman51 magneton, ttar, Metagross, blissey are all big targets for dugtrio in gen 3, Magneton as a target is to facilitate Skarmory, Ttar and Metagross can survive at full health but when weakened even slightly fall to earthquake easily, Removing blisse is massive for special attackers against teams that rely on blissey
Now with Duggie banned,do you think chlorophyll could be tested back in OU?
Sun got nerfed so hard ! This is unfair
Just wanted to point out the nicknames in the first replay. Nice to see another Gorguts fan, and Obscura's my favourite death metal album of all time.
Does this mean you have a sand team where all the nicknames are Colored Sands song titles?
no but that would be awesome. could even make a dpp dual ghost team called considered dead
Sun may be bad but its so much fun.
I know this has probably become a tired meme, but at some point could you do a video on hail teams?
Yes, they are unviable. Yes, Abomasnow has one of the worst defensive typings in the game and has mediocre-to-bad stats. Yes, they have no significant advantages. Yes, kyurem is the only "viable" "abuser," and it's not even that good under hail.
Nonetheless, could you do a video about 1) what little it can do, if anything, 2) What are its especially bad matchups and 3) possibly some things that would have made it more viable.
You could also include some options for teambuilding, like mentioning how valuable heatran is or what the weather can complement, like hazard stacking stall teams or anything else.
If nothing else, they are seen in similar usage to sun teams nowadays so yeah.
Sun teams have fallen that far that hail teams are used just as much as it? Man, rain is good.
@@iantaakalla8180 Yeah, both sometimes get brief spurts of usage but if you look at Pikalytics you will rarely find either above 3% usage.
No one is willing to put in effort for such troubled playstyles when the rewards aren’t that great and they aren’t very appealing barring a small audience.
comments... algorithm you get the drill. BKC number one youtuber by monday. lets make is happen :))))))
It's working, I got recommended lol
The problem with sun is that it’s to little rewards for so much maintenance. Mainly due to the fact that every potential abuser of sun is either inconsistent, better in different roles, or more fragile than a lob of cotton candy thrown in water
Will you ever touch on Clef in BW OU? It’s abundantly clear that Clef in every gen since Gen 4 that Clef has been an amazing mon with amazing immunities to hazard or residual damage, having unprecedented utility, and solid bulk despite not having any of its stats at 100 or higher. With how strong Clef is in DPPT, I would assume it’s an underrated pick in BW due to alot of its best attributes, still holding true in BW just a little worse. Is it unviable, or is it actually unexplored/underrated?
it's more or less unviable in bw, it's not bulky enough and doesn't resist anything of note. bw is a LOT stronger than dpp.
@@BKCplaysPokemon And filled with tons of fighting types like terrakion and Keldeo.
im sorry but clefable has seen so much usage recently in tournament play and i mean dice for one has made countless teams with cleable. Gliscor,Fore and Clef are a pretty common and good defensive core in gen 5 when paired with Hippo or even Abomasnow@@BKCplaysPokemon
For a while I was wondering like why specifically cress is good. Like through the video I was like how come you cant use cress rain. Thanks for sneaking in that part explaining moonlight 👍
Kind of unrelated, but what's the best Breloom set for Sand stall? Like teams with T-Tar, Reuniclus, Lando-T, etc.
spdef - toxic orb - seed - protect - bulk up - drain punch/mach punch or something like that
Great video. How good is rain in your opinion
judging from the first replay guess you are also a fellow gorguts fan, wasnt expecting to see one from comp pokemon of all places
Hey! BKC, I have a question, since now both dugtrio and sleep are gone, do you think that it's going to be a good idea re-test chlorophyll + drought?
I actively played from gen 4 - gen 8. Played tons of various tiers and played in countless showdown tournaments, and I saw a lot of success throughout. Gen 5 OU was my absolute least favorite meta game ever. I hated it so much that I stopped playing OU completely until Gen 6 came out and never came back to it.
I didn’t just enjoy playing to win. I liked playing to win while also making lesser popular mons work, as the ladders have always been too easy to just run standard stuff. What I enjoyed the most was experimenting with BL and underrated mons, but the amount of times I’d just auto lose to Toed + Ferro + Tenta + Keld + Latios + Thund/Rachi/Gyara/other rain abuser if I wasn’t running the most optimal mons and sets myself was too frustrating. It’s not like I would purposely run garbage to try to prove something, but there was so little room for innovation.
standard set of Magnezone @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire
- Sunny Day
- Magnet Rise
why not play substitute instead of magnet rise ? why this isn't a option at all ? with substitute you'll not get paralyzed or seed'd by Ferrothorn and then, get stall'd on by the popular substitute Jirachi sets played on rain team.
about excadrill, 252+ Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 33-39 (11.7 - 13.8%)
not enough to break substitute, and with some luck, the sub will not even break after a second iron head
because the standard excadrill isn't scarfed, and without magnet rise it will simply break balloon then eq you into oblivion. twave/leech ferro is rare now, and even then, it doesn't matter much because your goal is to remove it, and zone's pretty useless afterwards. any non-choiced magnezone will lose most of the time to those jirachi sets anyway.
Cant believe Finchinator did this...
is hail still a viable option? or is BW ou just over-run with sand and rain teams nowadays?
"is hail viable"
If you like loosing your sanity every time you join a battle, then yes it's viable
I
Pikminologue Raisin bruh moment
I have zero empathy for people who use sun and hail teams and loose
I’m guessing not, since aside from making blizzard 100% accurate the only advantage of it is that every type other than ice takes damage every turn. And because of that you can only really use ice types or magic guard users on the team, which is really restrictive.
Sun is so bad rn it has an actual room for experimentation, which can lead to pretty wacky teams and playstyles. I personally agree with BKC in the point of sun being utherly worthless currently, however the unexpected sets sun may be running just to ruin that specific playstyle you are using like sand could be worth trying. It actually have a ton of options that could make a sun team """""""good"""""" like sun stall, or sun bulky offense, or yeah maybe even braindead 5 choiced fire types blasting everything. I feel like it could be worth it experimenting with sun because its actually pretty fun and has a lot of flexibility unlike things like rain that already kills 3 slots in order to be defensively OK agaisnt the metagame.
Yeah, sun is still bad. But not hail awfull levels and worth a shot imo.
i think sun is worse than hail because at least hail has reliable abusers in abomasnow which beats every weather setter on the switch except ninetales and kyurem-b which loves having an upgraded ice beam on mixed sets and regular kyurem kills everything with specs blizzard and you dont have to focus your team around it
meanwhile sun has the worst setter ever forces you to build an entire team around it and is entirely useless without dugtrio or chlorophyll
volcarona is cool in sun i guess but it needs spin and is easily revenge killed by just about every dragon ever (scarf latios/scarf chomp, dnite espeed)
god i miss sun being usable
@@TheDunsparceGames ok...I can't even remember a single hail abuser in gen 5 lol
Is this the correct order of what team style goes above the other?
1. Sand
2. Rain
3. Drag-Mag
4. Sun
5. Weather less (does this event count as a unique yet defined style or is this the lack of a preset style?)
6.hail
I'm not trolling, honestly curious. would it be more accurate to say sand and rain are tied?
dragmag is a weatherless team
Quick, give me your hottest pokemon related takes!
Landorus-t has never been banworthy!
@@DM-of5sl I wouldn't call that a bad take thats a Fact,Landorus-T was never banworthy in its entire existence
@@DM-of5sl I disagree. Especially in SwSh where Hidden Power was taken away (even then it didn't matter much cuz you could EV and/or Assault Vest Lando to where it'd live).
Well the SwSh meta is kinda in flames rn even after the recent bans so like I doubt that lando-t is banworthy atm if ever
HGSS may be the weakest pokémon game ever
I also think Kanto is a great region, but yeah, it get way too much representation by GameFreak compared to other regions.
i think one way you could cimprove your content is explain some of the things that are going on better. the dugtrio stuff was pretty self explanatory but at some points you say something like "look at his pressure, terrrakion, latios, *insert pokemon*, this sun team can't do anything here" and as someone who doesnt play competitive pokemon i have no idea what that means
@Ryan Lucht
Terrakion and Latios resist fire.
man i wish torkoal had sun in bw
Sun is fun as hell but yeah, it is so bad
So why not unban Duggy?
it was broken, so why unban it? is having an increased number of available options more important than a balanced metagame?
No
Bring back chlorophyll
I have a very simple answer to this
Stealth rocks
Need this video for hail
Thanks, now i can stop seeing bad sun teams
clorophyl should be retested after the dug and sleep bans. You literally lose nothing because if it ends up being broken, just ban it again. Also the state of the metagame isn't good so there's no reason not to try giving it a second chance
The biggest problem with Sun is a bunch of the better abilities / moves are Grass type whereas Rain boosts Water directly
Getting 100% accurate Thunder / Hurricane over a fast-chargìng Solarbeam doesn't hurt either
At least unban sun + chlorophyll. It need it :/
BKC is a daddy
Sun is significantly less viable now ( July 1st 2022. )
That's the result of banning Dugtrio, making some teamstyles completely unviable. Okay, you're avoiding cheese trap victories, but you're making two already powerful team styles even more dominant. This is why BW is so closed as a meta, with barely any variety in teams.
do you prefer the existence of "diverse" overpowered/cheese strategies to a balanced metagame that is more conducive to the better player winning (i.e. the reason we have clauses and rulesets to begin with)? because dug was banned with the latter in mind. plus, not that this is a competitive argument at all, but there's still plenty of diversity within sand and rain teams. we've also seen a good amount of solid weatherless teams, both dragmag and non-dragmag.
ive had plenty of success with weatherless stall, dual screens offense, and even trick room
barely any variety in teams my ass
Pleeease don’t use the 3D models they look so gross.. I love your videos btw
in the video the 3d models were only used because bw ou at the time was a different metagame on the team builder entirely than today, and because that meta no longer exists, showdown doesnt know to use the sprites, so it uses the models instead
there was nothing he could do thats just how showdown works
R for sun
Good, nothing against Sun per se, but im glad Venusaur stops oneshotting my Team.
Why did a plus 3 Lifeorb Dragonite in the Sun not KO Xatu whit Firepunch? Xatu does not have Unaware.
BWOU is boring af..
The same 15 mons always
can you get to the point sooner when you talk
you started explaining why sun isn't viable 1 minute and 47 seconds into the video
no
understable have a nice day