BorgWarner's EFR and Airwerks compared
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ส.ค. 2021
- Hey guys - warning beforehand - this is a long video. It covers more on the EFR and Airwerks range of turbos in the various sizes. S200SXE, S300SXE, EFR7163, EFR7670, EFR8474 Black, and compressor maps compared. Journal bearing and ball bearing - youll be surprised how closely matched these turbos perform, and flow.
Overall - lots of info, side by side pictures, compressor map reviews and generally alot of educational information and more on how i think when looking at a map and evaluating it. Enjoy! - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Excellent information. Thank you for taking to time to make these videos.
Thank you for the compliment - glad you enjoyed this.
Awesome video, very interested to see the video showing the real world differences between the 8474 and the s300. Being able to visualize differences in boost threshold and response will be so cool to see.
If all goes to plan we expect to have the first turbo installed onto the 1JZ by October and will begin testing from there.
absolutely stunning amount of knowledge. Thank you for creating this content
Thank you for the comment - much appreciated.
Hi
Love it!
Please keep at it and educating us 😁
For a Subaru EJ207 2.0 litre with dual Avcs (2015 model) , thinking of a g25-660
Which borgwarner turbo model would you recommend I look into for this application?
Thanks in advance
@@zaakirwahab9023 The EFR7163 with the T4 twin scroll turbine housing will outspool and outperform the G25 by far! The Twin scroll housing is perfect for the opposed cylinder engine design, and is small enough to fit into the geography aswell. The internal gate is also unmatched in boost control, and response - without a doubt i would opt for the 7163.
Awesome . Thanks for the update.😎👍🏁
the 64mm SXE are great units, I got one of the the first pair of prototypes before the actual SXE appeared around 10 years ago and still using them today.
You do some serious homework! Subscribed!
Fantastic videos! Thank you!
Thanks alot sir!
Great video!
Thanks Adam
awesome, video.... today we going learn something, did you say diverter valve accessory on the efr8474black?
something i find alot of fun, like to enter different data, borgwarner matchbot, info i see on the matchbot, altitude compensation, intake temp, fuel type, plotting the estimate engine needs through rpm range on the comp map...... interesting info, which could be useful in building a setup. fuel(amount, needed for your desired boost), estimate power generated, also desired afr for the rev range........................thanks chris, hoping to see your brand grow aswell.... keep at it
looking forward to the project car kick off
Thanks buddy - much appreciate your comments. The brand is growing strong, and we aim to grow this into what its destined to be soon.
Great vid man, looks like the s300 for the money & pump gas would be good, now looking for the 1j test vid!!!...
Watch this space - many test videos coming up with the 1JZ soon
@@TurboDirectSA Awesome!
Tons of good info as always. It would be really cool if you could do a video on how efficiency actually affects the engine. Like if you are operating in the peak efficiency range, how does it affect the engine running vs operating in a poor efficiency range. Some effects seem obvious, but it's hard to imagine the chart vs reality. Obviously I would think better power for a given boost level, but what else? Better transient response? Better turbo longevity? Just thinking there is probably a lot I don't know.
This would need to be a physical test with the turbo installed in order to measure the necessary results. Each engine will perform / react differently at the same points of reference on the maps efficiency.
@@TurboDirectSA Totally fair. Of course every engine/turbo combination. Just wasn't sure if there were generalizations that could be drawn from what increased turbo efficiency means for an engine.
Thank you
Can you please speak about the. Borg warner vnt used on porsche vs borg warner twin scroll. I want to maybe change my twin scroll on A45 amg to vnt/vgt Borg warner. Thanks buddy
Great informative video. - With the EFR 8474 what Turbine Housing would spool faster between the 0.82AR V-Band Single Scroll Turbine Housing and the 0.92AR T4 Twin Scroll Turbo Housing? V-Band housing has lower AR, but would the T4 still spool faster due to having the advantage of being twin scroll? Aiming for good transient response and 1,000bhp @ crank with two EF8474 @ approx. 1 bar boost on 98 Octane fuel, with a 5.2L engine with a 12.5 compression ratio and 8750rpm red line. Do either of these housing options on EFR 8474's sound realistic for those goals, or should I step up to EFR 9274's? Thanks
Thanks for the compliment - and i must say i absolutely love this question - its actually a trick question, which will require your knowledge and experience to be able to answer this correctly and accurately. Things to notice here are the CR of 12.5:1 -- and the massively high RPM Limit.
1) Fuel being used here will have to be ETANOL or METHANOL - high CR
2) Backpressure will be a problem here so a larger AR turbine housing is a must -- high CR
3) The engine revs extremely high, so once again you have a wide power band range, and the AR of the turbine housing will need to be large, because after around 5500-5800rpm with this high CR engine, the power and torque will start to falloff due to high backpressure in the turbine stage.
4) I wouldnt even consider using the AR82 turbine housing, the smallest i would consider is the AR92 T4 twin -- and possibly even the 1.05 (EWG)
To answer your question - linear response is EASY on this engine because of the high CR and fuel you will be forced to use as a result.
Could you do a comparison of the smaller sxe 252 turbo how it compares to GTX3071R / G25 660 and include the turbine wheel in the comparison? Looking for a reliable and robust turbos for 3,0l twin turbo setup.
Thanks for the comment, we dont stock this smaller S200SXE as its only difference is the compressor wheel size. The turbine wheel is identical on both turbos. Spool characteristics are the same too, so it makes no sense to spend the same money on the turbo which makes less power and responds the same as the larger more capable unit.
I realise you are a Borgwarner sales man, but I am curious as to the reliability of the inconel vs gamma-ti turbine wheels, especially at high rpm (near their rpm limit). Looking at the S200-70 and the EFR7064, I am wondering which is better. I actually prefer a journal bearing for my application, the main deciding factor is the turbine wheel material because of heat cycles and high rpm I thought the gamma-ti may have a shorter fatigue life. What do you think? Love your videos.
No sir im no salesman - we carry ALL brands under one roof, and we outline and provide info on all makes and models - comparisons are based on facts and facts alone. No opinions are depicted unless expressly mentioned.
The Gamma-TI would never have made it into production if it was subject to failure sue to a poor fatigue life - in fact the light weight shaft has a better/increased fatigue life in comparison. The material is designed to withstand high thermal loads, at the same time weighing a fraction of the inconel / Mar M247 counterparts - which makes this a very special and attractive product.
Have you guys made the video putting the 8474 and the s364 on the car like it says you guys would at the end of the video? If so can some one link me please
Not as yet - we will be doing a lot of these side by side comparisons asap
Iv for a question on borgwarner bush bearing s200 sxe .I bought these turbos from America and they have sourced there own rear housings. T3 .48 and .82 open . I wanted the .60 t28 they don’t have it . so they say the .48 t3 is the same as as t28 .60 ? I would be happy with t3 .60 range what’s better ? And Is there info true ? The turbos will be for Rb26 twin turbo set up . ? Will this choke the engine ?
Thanks for the comment - the S200SXE is not a "tee free tee faw" there is no way that any GT28 volute turbine housing will work with these turbochargers. If you machine and modify any turbine housing from the T28 / GT28 family the turbo will spool up and produce all of around 300HP if that, and generate enormous amounts of heat at low boost pressures. The turbo will not last long, and probably harm your engine at the same time. Please don't venture down this road - whoever gave you this information/advise is ill informed and reckless.
The only housing to use with this turbo assuming it's being used on an RB25 GTST including the NEO engine, is the T4 twin scroll AR83 which is a T4 flange face, but with the T3 volute, this will spool up, but nothing like a GT28 model ball bearing turbo. It is possible to modify any housing to work with this bearing housing design, BUT there is a cost to pay for this. I have seen this so many times, with customer unhappy with spool characteristics of a turbo and they install tiny turbine housings, and the turbo fails as a result and mostly damages the engine at the same time, when in fact there was a boost leak to start with in the original installation - only picked up after the repairs were made and turbo replaced.....
If its spool and response you want and lower HP output, i would suggest using the smaller frame turbos like the EFR6758 or 7163 which are also ball bearing.
If you provide more info on the project you busy with id be happy to guide you with some advise.
Can you make any more horsepower when you go outside of the compressor map or is the right hand side the absolute maximum limit?
The right hand side of the map is called the choke limit, there is no more additional, nor stable air flow past this point.
why don't they do a t3 turbine housing for the 300sxe? thinking the 300sxe could go good on 4.0 barra. how would 300sxe spool compared to .83 8474?
Keep in mind that you cannot use a tiny turbine housing AR with such a large turbine wheel - the back pressure in the housing will be abnormally high, and thermal runaway aswell as thrust loading on the bearing system will shorten its life and prevent the turbo from making power.
How would the ram air affect the flow rate? Would it extend the right side of the map?
Thanks for the question Neil - we have tested this on a dyno with a cold air intake facing the front of a car without an air filter on, running the dyno fan directly into the front of the inlet pipe and the only difference we saw was boost response. No additional power was gained at all.
Can you give me some advise of the A/R of RB26 with sx-e200? Thanks
T4inlet twin scroll AR83 will work perfectly.
Hey just came across this video and i need some help.
I am going to be runninf a speedtech bottom mount turbo kit for my n54 3.0L 6 cylinder bmw. I was thinking of running the g35-900 turbo, but came across this and now im conviced to do the borgwarner S362 13009097056. Pretty sure its twin scrolled. With a T4 manifold. They sell two options for A/R. One is .91 and 1.0 not sure which one to go with. I will be running port injection with 750cc injectors with a flexfuel tune. The turbo is rated for 775hp(crank). I was just wondering which a/r i should choose. Spool time is kind of important to me, so is getting a good 60-130 time. Its going to be a street car more so for highway rolls and me just beating the piss out of it. How late do you think this turbo will be “in boost” or spool, 4k rpm? Do you think ill run out of breathable room with the .91 a/r? Or is the risk worth the reward going with the bigger a/r. Let me know what you think. Thanks
Thanks for the comment, i believe we have already spoken on Email -
I currently have a s300 69mm and want to replace it with a efr 8374.
Is the turbine side the same fitment. As i dont want to change my downpipe?
Unfortunately not - your DP position will change im afraid.
I have a Borg Warner EFR hybrid 8370.
8374 front 7670 turbine 1.05 a/r.
Went to dyno and was completely confused, 476hp/440 tq @ 22psi 1300ID injectors stock JDM GTE supra. Compression 180 across, no leaking on test.
Any ideas
Thought maybe the Frankenstein didn’t work for what I plan to use the car for; circuit track down a red quicker spool.
The shaft power is not sufficient to drive that compressor. Install the 7670 with AR83 turbine and get finished with it - will outspool the frankenstein by 500-800RPM and will make 650HP no problem at all!
@@TurboDirectSA interesting.
I’m going to consider it but that’s basically replacing the entire turbo and manifold setup for the T3 .83 a/r. Just not worth it after my current manifold:turbo combo wast cheap. Also leaving no room for future growth as to why I did this. I’m thinking to just go with a 8374 but will keep your recommendation in mind.
Thanks so much
Lastly, how does the shaft power work to drive the compressor?? Should it not “work”, why would it yield at under 500hp off of a 4mm difference on the turbine?
Please help me to understand.. if i use 7670 with 1.5-1.6 bar pressure and 6800 max rpm i can get more then 500 hp or not? I tried to understand, but a little confused. Engine Volvo 2.5t 5 cylinders
yes i think so
Can you explain the benefits of upgrading an EFR 7163’s compressor cover to the optional SXE cover? P/N 11711013004
The only physical outside difference is the fact that the S200SXE is a non pressure relieved housing. The DV is not present. Both housings cater for the same inducer size compressor wheel.
Which one would be better replacement with less lag for the S55 twin turbo setup?
Better drivability and possibly more fuel efficient
What HP target? If you are planning on producing inside of 700HP, i would choose the EFR8370, for best spool, and up to 750HP capable. More than this 0 would opt for the EFR8474 Black series with IWG and AR83 turbine housing.
@@TurboDirectSA My target is 800bhp
@@n.prince2458 Then i would use the 8474 Black series without a doubt
Very good information and im losing my mind trying to understand it all. What would you recommend for a e36 M50B25TU 2.5L/ for 350Hp on Pump Gas with room to grow?
For a fast spool low down and more than enough power ontop for a clean 600HP setup (Should you choose to boost high enough to make this power) This is what i would suggest for you. turbodirect.co.za/store/index.php/shop/turbochargers/gtx3077r-forged-detail
The compression on the BMW motor is 10.5:1 - which is very high, you will need to lower this to around 9.5:1 at least for a reliable setup on pump fuel.
@@TurboDirectSA Thank you for the information! Doing some Research into this turbo, Its just a 3071 that has been modified?
@@defkon99 No its nothing like a GT30 at all - not the comp housing, not the comp wheel, not the bearing cartridge either.
@@TurboDirectSA Can you recommend anything from Holset or Borg that is similar?
@@defkon99 EFR7163, EFR7670, Holset do not manufacture performance turbochargers.
Can you get a s300 with t4 twin scroll housing?
Yes you do - both the AR1.00 and AR0.91 housing are twin scroll.
Ok professor, im reporting for class
LOL - take your seat sir :-)
Damn, late for class. Hope the Turbo Prof doesn't dock me points. :-D
LOL --
Make comparison efr 7670-8370-8374, thanks!
You kinda missed (or forgot) to give an actual comparison on the 7670 with the different exhaust housings in terms of the spool characteristics on some common application
At 18:47 i covered the difference between these two - its only the turbine housing that differs.
@@TurboDirectSA what about comparing the EFR 7670 twin scroll IWG vs EWG. the IWG turbine housing is smaller (0.9 ar if not mistaken) compare to 1.01 ar on the EWG. Do you think the difference is significant or negligible? Thank you in advance
@@fizliz1010 The difference between these two will be different in response, because any external gate setup increases the amount of volume inside the pot belly of the wastegate. The internal gate is situated in the inlet tract of the turbine housing and as the swing valve opens, the boost is regulated faster than an external gate down stream of the entire collector assembly and turbine housing volute.
I would stick to the IWG model for the best response.
@@TurboDirectSA thank you. Would I lose significant amount of peak horsepower up top due to the smaller ar on the iwg setup?
@@fizliz1010 No you wont see any difference in top end power with these size AR turbine housings. there is minimal back pressure with these housings side by side. If you see 5-10HP it will be alot.
You will be able to see this by the gas expansion values in the matchbot app online - if you interested.
372sxe vs efr 9280 !?
Great suggestion - will do this comparison in 2022
most turbo underate. turbo hp rating are usually a minimum (of 550hp)
No sir - HP ratings are 100% in line with air flow depicted on the compressor map - for every 10Lb/min of flow, equates to a realistic 100HP -- using X10 (realistic conversion)