I brought up this exact problem with my scene back around the time this tournament happened, and was met with “lol just don’t wobble, it’s not that hard”. It was really disappointing, so thank you for putting out a video showcasing how it can be an issue. The whole “can’t pummel during blizzard even though they are already locked in hitstun for X amount of time because it = wobbling” always was weird to me, since it doesn’t actually contribute any additional hitstun. Would be really cool if that was someday addressed. I also totally feel the pain of no-wobbling-code setups and bad-wobbling-code setups, and have dealt with both constantly in my scene. Having to constantly be aware of how many pummels I’m doing and having to adjust my grab combo muscle memory every time I accidentally input an extra jab throws me off a ton when there is no code to prevent me from accidentally DQing myself with a miss-input pummel. Everyone thinks they know what a wobble looks like, which is probably why folks thought I was dumb for bringing this issue up and responded the way they did, but the moment they have to agree with someone else on what a wobble is you realize everyone actually has a different idea of what it is. The fact that this clearly illegal stuff gets missed while perfectly legal stuff is relatively often mistaken for a wobble speaks for itself. Heh. Cheers dude~
i feel like the wobbling ban without the code to patch it makes icies so much more unnecessarily difficult lol, you gotta think about what is optimal to do in a scenario then make sure it's allowed in the rules.
@@ClassicBentobox its more like the difference between wobbling and handoffs can be so hard to spot, at least as so.eone who only watches melee and doesnt play it like me
As soon as you mentioned Raoul . . . . I knew that he ended up going because he knocked my friend out in losers lmao. Also I was keeping my eye out for wobbling by technicality, figured you weren't going to point it out, and still missed it lmao.
@@John-nk3ej there's a lot of people that think it should be banned of all skill levels Top players thinking it should be banned is mostly what led to the banning
In the hungrybox clip they were both trying to fight for TIME. If you watch the clip, BEFORE this happened. Trif was doing the same thing in the air for a full MINUTE aka 4x longer than Hbox did at the very end.
Watching that set live was pretty bizzare. Hbox hardcore aggro'd Trif for like 80% of the set while Trif didn't do much more than run away, throw veggies and camp over top plat yet Juan was the lame one apperantly for some people when Trif was responsible for the game going to time and enabling that end situation.
I think the rules should be amended to allow for a maximum of 8 attacks and pummels within a grab. No one noticed this because it's not *wobbling*. Wobbling has been poorly defined, but we now know that what SluG did was okay and isn't a wobble in essence.
soo... doing a borderline ice climbers hand off that ultimately does the same thing as 1 less pummel is where you draw the line but hbox going understage back and forth in completely uninteractable way to stall isnt . melee is wild i feel its definitely because its who and whats on screen that effects rule enforcement because let hbox had did this to mango everyone would have been pissed but because it was trif who was playing"campy" its okay and btw camping and stalling are 2 seperate things and camping doesnt justify just flat out stalling one has counterplay that might be hard or challening to get pass the other has 0 counterplay and is completely uninteractable just amazed at the melee community at this point
I argue that exact thing in the other video. My conclusion in my video about pound stalling was that what hbox did was not -clearly- banned by the current rules we have, and that we should update the rules to make it more clear and to account for various kinds of pound stalling so that there is a strict line where people can be punished if they cross it. Also, this is not where I draw the line. This is where the current Melee ruleset draws the line, and I'm bringing these topics up so that we can talk about changing them.
@@SSBMNicki actually rewatching i understand and the comment adds more clarity sorry for that if you manage to bring attention to more of these type of things im sure melee scene will become a bit better even if small also your vids are pretty nice hope you keep it up
Back in the day pound stalling WAS clearly defined but thats been lost to time. Its when you barely dont get star kod and spend 2 mins coming down. This at the end was absolutely not stalling, they were interacting. Running away to burn a resource IS interacting. Deleting minutes off of the timer as a reward for getting hit is not.
Camping until the timer is at 12 seconds removes the right to complain. Arguably any kind of defensive run away gameplay at low timers could be veiwed as stalling, or your playing for your win condition
Id be interested in hearing your take, hopefully with great detail and rambling, about the potebntial for the character. Maybe other characters who are unexplored? and why you dropped fox for "such a lame character"
All foxes do when they lose in melee is cry and band together in order to heavily modify the original game and create a competitive environment where they are more likely to win. They do it so hastily in fact that there are clear holes in their logic, i.e. an ungovernable rule being imposed onto a character which is now neutered, or even worse, they claim to be "competitive in melee" yet don't play melee, they refuse to play melee competitively entirely, and only play on a heavily modified version of the game which makes fox much stronger relative to ice climbers by neutering the ice climbers natural abilities. It's disgusting to see it, but of course it happens all throughout history as well. You know exactly the kind of slimy people I'm talking about, who would force a mod upon others (akin to the pichu mod) yet claim they are "competitive in melee". It's such a lie, such a dark lie and when it comes out to the people who respect them for that specifically it will break down the walls and they will be left wondering what was the point in getting competitive in a modded version of a game, when melee is what they were truly seeking since the beginning but now they can't win due to getting wobbled. It's sad to see but hey they made their own decisions and decided that's what they wanted to do and that's how they wanted to be seen. The extremely sad part about all of this is that ice climbers still lose to fox even without neutering them, yet fox still disembowels the character forcing a modded copy onto the climbers while claiming they are "playing" "melee". It's inexcusable, but hey, they chose to have no competitive integrity, or more appropriately, their lack of competitive integrity was reflected in their collective decision making in modding the game and forcing their character to win relative to others.
ok not forcing their character to win, but definitely making their character significantly stronger vs an already subpar character, would be closer to the truth.
Yeeeaaah. I noticed in the beginning. I always miss those trick questions, but this time I was like: "wait... that was wobbling, not a hand-off." EDIT: Wobbling is poison to the community. Get better with ICs. Don't be a Wobbler.
I think the w*bbler should go to prison forever and the Fox should be given inheritance rights to a major corporation. But actually I think that it's mostly a problem of the rules not being enforced in-game, and being on the players/TOs to call out in the moment or close to it. In this case nothing should be done I think, but it doesn't feel great saying that.
imagine if everyone in the audience just roared up screaming NOO HE WOBBLED STOP PLAYING HE WOBBLED STOP PLAYING RIGHT NOW the utter and massive confusion that would have caused (even if they were right) would have been insane. And the false positive coming from a crowd would be inevitable. The only way (on original melee, not some stupid mod called nintendon't which is very different from melee) that a wobble ban can be enforced is with hyper attentative watching of the set by a referee, which is not typical for this competition. So either legalize wobbling, or hire referrees. Oh what's that, you won't hire a referee? Ok well stop crying because fox still beats ice climbers without wobbling so just get to work.. IDK why so many foxes cry about a rule they cannot enforce without stopping playing melee, they play some nintendon't, and then the foxes claim they "play melee". it's atrocious behavior to consider yourself a melee player while you will only play on a heavily modded and neutered version of the game, released 10+ years after the original came out. You don't play melee you play nintendon't, or you play with rules which cannot be enforced without a referee being hired and watching extremely attentatively, whichyou know for a fact they won't let that happen because that creates another person which would be getting attention not just the players. Anyway. It's a classic conundrum. There's more foxes than ice climbers so they all band together and say KEEP NEUTERING THE CHARACTER I LOST TO SO I CAN GET MORE ATTENTION AND "WIN" even though they diminish their win by neutering the other character via mods or "in post watching back frame by frame of a tournament win from multiple years ago" they keep saying they "play melee" yet they actually play a heavily diminished version of the same thing.. But anyway, have a good one.
@@snared_ Quite the word soup I have been served in the replies. My only response is that you sound borderline conspiratorial in your framing of this and disconnected from the culture of the community at large. Even Nicki, the guy who posted this and plays Ice Climbers supports banning wobbling. Not that such a point makes your argument invalid it's just very strange to frame this like some social elite of Fox Players is pulling the strings of Big Melee by lobbying for wobbling to banned and maliciously stifling the Working Class Wobbler to ensure their continued reign. I will probably not reply to any further comments on this video.
See!! I've been saying all along that wobbling should not have been banned. The way they banned it is they created a rule which they could not enforce. They were so ready to win as Fox that they completely threw competitive integrity out the window. Legalize ice climbers. There's no reason to make a move illegal in the game. Let's play melee the way it was intended. Fox can still win, so stop crying that wobbling should be illegal
or even worse instead of creating a rule they couldn't enforce, they created their own version of the game and sold that off as "Melee" even though it was actually called "Melee where I changed ice climbers and neutered their abilities". It's exactly the same as the Pichu situation, except that what they changed is public, whereas the Pichu guy hid the fact he changed anything. The only way this was possible is because there are significantly more non ice climber players than ice climber players. It's atrocious to see the masses gang up on a small amount of players just so that they can put them into the dark and put themselves into the light.
Alright some historical context here. Infinite dimensional cape. There are tons of legendary sets in brawl in which metaknights cheats by extending their cape by just a bit to grab ledge. THATS impossible to make rules about but is equally necessary to enforce. I dont think your argument of “its difficult to ban in its entirety” stands up at all. We should still try to keep some competitive integrity in our game. And everyone agrees wobbling doesnt do that. Btw, wobbling was only fully legal at 1 tournament. It goes for 8 mins and wins the game from 1 interaction. Sure aint fun
Its not cheating if its in the game, aint that what you melee guys said about wavedashing anr all that other shit? Exploiting the mechanics of the game or whatever?
wavedashing is officially mentioned by the makers of the game. That is just a mechanic. Wobbling is cheating cause people decided it is. Like using ur hands in football, you could do it. It is possible but people decided that's not how one should play the game
A bunch of fighting games have had infinites and they're all banned (Marvel vs Campcom comes immediatly to mind). The only one who make a fuss about it is Climbers players who want their degenerate cheese back and people like you who don't seem like they ever had the pleasure to get wobbled.
"It's not considered assault if they're my homies"
@@zjmullan I may have failed my legal classes in college
i appreciate the accuracy in your choice of words, slug indeed broke A rule but did not cheat
4:19 for the actual start of the video
I brought up this exact problem with my scene back around the time this tournament happened, and was met with “lol just don’t wobble, it’s not that hard”. It was really disappointing, so thank you for putting out a video showcasing how it can be an issue.
The whole “can’t pummel during blizzard even though they are already locked in hitstun for X amount of time because it = wobbling” always was weird to me, since it doesn’t actually contribute any additional hitstun. Would be really cool if that was someday addressed.
I also totally feel the pain of no-wobbling-code setups and bad-wobbling-code setups, and have dealt with both constantly in my scene. Having to constantly be aware of how many pummels I’m doing and having to adjust my grab combo muscle memory every time I accidentally input an extra jab throws me off a ton when there is no code to prevent me from accidentally DQing myself with a miss-input pummel.
Everyone thinks they know what a wobble looks like, which is probably why folks thought I was dumb for bringing this issue up and responded the way they did, but the moment they have to agree with someone else on what a wobble is you realize everyone actually has a different idea of what it is. The fact that this clearly illegal stuff gets missed while perfectly legal stuff is relatively often mistaken for a wobble speaks for itself. Heh.
Cheers dude~
i feel like the wobbling ban without the code to patch it makes icies so much more unnecessarily difficult lol, you gotta think about what is optimal to do in a scenario then make sure it's allowed in the rules.
To be fair it’s pretty obvious when someone is abusing wobbling or not. Jab isn’t necessarily a super damaging move.
@@ClassicBentobox its more like the difference between wobbling and handoffs can be so hard to spot, at least as so.eone who only watches melee and doesnt play it like me
There are usually no jabs in wobbling or in ICs grab combos!
If someone asked for it Hax could just include it in 1.03 im sure
I’ve watched this ics vod so many times I instantly knew who it was and what was going on. Awesome video(s) tho Nicki, keep it up!
As soon as you mentioned Raoul
.
.
.
.
I knew that he ended up going because he knocked my friend out in losers lmao.
Also I was keeping my eye out for wobbling by technicality, figured you weren't going to point it out, and still missed it lmao.
Damn good video. Love the jokes etc. in between! Keep it up mayn
Should be replayed imo
Lmao real
No, fuck trif
wobbling should be legal I enjoy doing it
Loooooooool
honestly the only people who actually think it should be banned are just bad at the game
@@John-nk3ej there's a lot of people that think it should be banned of all skill levels
Top players thinking it should be banned is mostly what led to the banning
@@GhillieGuide then they aren't actually good, they're just weaklings
damn its the og AB icies
In the hungrybox clip they were both trying to fight for TIME.
If you watch the clip, BEFORE this happened. Trif was doing the same thing in the air for a full MINUTE aka 4x longer than Hbox did at the very end.
Watching that set live was pretty bizzare.
Hbox hardcore aggro'd Trif for like 80% of the set while Trif didn't do much more than run away, throw veggies and camp over top plat yet Juan was the lame one apperantly for some people when Trif was responsible for the game going to time and enabling that end situation.
I like Diddy Kong Racing music
Imo should be replayed
been loving the content nicki, keep it up
I miss my wife
Nicki vids are absolute bombs, loving the content!
I noticed
Loving all this new Nicki content
I think the rules should be amended to allow for a maximum of 8 attacks and pummels within a grab. No one noticed this because it's not *wobbling*. Wobbling has been poorly defined, but we now know that what SluG did was okay and isn't a wobble in essence.
Melee Rule Police how dare you break them
soo... doing a borderline ice climbers hand off that ultimately does the same thing as 1 less pummel is where you draw the line but hbox going understage back and forth in completely uninteractable way to stall isnt . melee is wild i feel its definitely because its who and whats on screen that effects rule enforcement because let hbox had did this to mango everyone would have been pissed but because it was trif who was playing"campy" its okay and btw camping and stalling are 2 seperate things and camping doesnt justify just flat out stalling one has counterplay that might be hard or challening to get pass the other has 0 counterplay and is completely uninteractable just amazed at the melee community at this point
I argue that exact thing in the other video.
My conclusion in my video about pound stalling was that what hbox did was not -clearly- banned by the current rules we have, and that we should update the rules to make it more clear and to account for various kinds of pound stalling so that there is a strict line where people can be punished if they cross it.
Also, this is not where I draw the line. This is where the current Melee ruleset draws the line, and I'm bringing these topics up so that we can talk about changing them.
@@SSBMNicki actually rewatching i understand and the comment adds more clarity sorry for that if you manage to bring attention to more of these type of things im sure melee scene will become a bit better even if small also your vids are pretty nice hope you keep it up
Back in the day pound stalling WAS clearly defined but thats been lost to time. Its when you barely dont get star kod and spend 2 mins coming down. This at the end was absolutely not stalling, they were interacting. Running away to burn a resource IS interacting. Deleting minutes off of the timer as a reward for getting hit is not.
Camping until the timer is at 12 seconds removes the right to complain.
Arguably any kind of defensive run away gameplay at low timers could be veiwed as stalling, or your playing for your win condition
W*bbler!!!
17:40 slippi nintendont
11:37 i feel called out
Nice
death
Holy shit I was able to tell the right one without you pointing it out…
Wassup my wobbla
The main mistake i see off the bat is why the f on Gods Green Earth did Trif select Peach on the character screen option against Hbox Puff
Id be interested in hearing your take, hopefully with great detail and rambling, about the potebntial for the character. Maybe other characters who are unexplored? and why you dropped fox for "such a lame character"
lmaooo Nicki ur a fucking god
9:13 the auto generated English subtitles are being accidentally based
It was only the 2nd game with 2 stocks to one… lol come on hbox
Wow this was real boring lol
All foxes do when they lose in melee is cry and band together in order to heavily modify the original game and create a competitive environment where they are more likely to win. They do it so hastily in fact that there are clear holes in their logic, i.e. an ungovernable rule being imposed onto a character which is now neutered, or even worse, they claim to be "competitive in melee" yet don't play melee, they refuse to play melee competitively entirely, and only play on a heavily modified version of the game which makes fox much stronger relative to ice climbers by neutering the ice climbers natural abilities. It's disgusting to see it, but of course it happens all throughout history as well. You know exactly the kind of slimy people I'm talking about, who would force a mod upon others (akin to the pichu mod) yet claim they are "competitive in melee". It's such a lie, such a dark lie and when it comes out to the people who respect them for that specifically it will break down the walls and they will be left wondering what was the point in getting competitive in a modded version of a game, when melee is what they were truly seeking since the beginning but now they can't win due to getting wobbled. It's sad to see but hey they made their own decisions and decided that's what they wanted to do and that's how they wanted to be seen. The extremely sad part about all of this is that ice climbers still lose to fox even without neutering them, yet fox still disembowels the character forcing a modded copy onto the climbers while claiming they are "playing" "melee". It's inexcusable, but hey, they chose to have no competitive integrity, or more appropriately, their lack of competitive integrity was reflected in their collective decision making in modding the game and forcing their character to win relative to others.
ok not forcing their character to win, but definitely making their character significantly stronger vs an already subpar character, would be closer to the truth.
Can you explain exactly how the changes of UCF specifically target fox and not other characters?
@@DEMERN They don't. This guy is just schizo-posting.
bro wrote a novel
don't worry about it
by asking for nerfs they are admitting their fear clearly ICs too good
Yeeeaaah. I noticed in the beginning. I always miss those trick questions, but this time I was like: "wait... that was wobbling, not a hand-off."
EDIT: Wobbling is poison to the community. Get better with ICs. Don't be a Wobbler.
I think the w*bbler should go to prison forever and the Fox should be given inheritance rights to a major corporation.
But actually I think that it's mostly a problem of the rules not being enforced in-game, and being on the players/TOs to call out in the moment or close to it. In this case nothing should be done I think, but it doesn't feel great saying that.
imagine if everyone in the audience just roared up screaming NOO HE WOBBLED STOP PLAYING HE WOBBLED STOP PLAYING RIGHT NOW the utter and massive confusion that would have caused (even if they were right) would have been insane. And the false positive coming from a crowd would be inevitable. The only way (on original melee, not some stupid mod called nintendon't which is very different from melee) that a wobble ban can be enforced is with hyper attentative watching of the set by a referee, which is not typical for this competition. So either legalize wobbling, or hire referrees. Oh what's that, you won't hire a referee? Ok well stop crying because fox still beats ice climbers without wobbling so just get to work.. IDK why so many foxes cry about a rule they cannot enforce without stopping playing melee, they play some nintendon't, and then the foxes claim they "play melee". it's atrocious behavior to consider yourself a melee player while you will only play on a heavily modded and neutered version of the game, released 10+ years after the original came out. You don't play melee you play nintendon't, or you play with rules which cannot be enforced without a referee being hired and watching extremely attentatively, whichyou know for a fact they won't let that happen because that creates another person which would be getting attention not just the players. Anyway. It's a classic conundrum. There's more foxes than ice climbers so they all band together and say KEEP NEUTERING THE CHARACTER I LOST TO SO I CAN GET MORE ATTENTION AND "WIN" even though they diminish their win by neutering the other character via mods or "in post watching back frame by frame of a tournament win from multiple years ago" they keep saying they "play melee" yet they actually play a heavily diminished version of the same thing.. But anyway, have a good one.
inb4 "I don't remember ordering a yappucino, blah blah blah gen X gen Alpha etc"
I mean gen Z ffs but whatever
@@snared_ Quite the word soup I have been served in the replies. My only response is that you sound borderline conspiratorial in your framing of this and disconnected from the culture of the community at large.
Even Nicki, the guy who posted this and plays Ice Climbers supports banning wobbling. Not that such a point makes your argument invalid it's just very strange to frame this like some social elite of Fox Players is pulling the strings of Big Melee by lobbying for wobbling to banned and maliciously stifling the Working Class Wobbler to ensure their continued reign.
I will probably not reply to any further comments on this video.
@@AndrewRKenny imagine trying to enforce a jump limit or shine limit. No worries, have a good one.
See!! I've been saying all along that wobbling should not have been banned. The way they banned it is they created a rule which they could not enforce. They were so ready to win as Fox that they completely threw competitive integrity out the window. Legalize ice climbers. There's no reason to make a move illegal in the game. Let's play melee the way it was intended. Fox can still win, so stop crying that wobbling should be illegal
or even worse instead of creating a rule they couldn't enforce, they created their own version of the game and sold that off as "Melee" even though it was actually called "Melee where I changed ice climbers and neutered their abilities". It's exactly the same as the Pichu situation, except that what they changed is public, whereas the Pichu guy hid the fact he changed anything. The only way this was possible is because there are significantly more non ice climber players than ice climber players. It's atrocious to see the masses gang up on a small amount of players just so that they can put them into the dark and put themselves into the light.
@@snared_ imagine trying to enforce a jump limit or shine limit lmao
melee was intended as a party game
@@Sapreme exactly, thank you!
Alright some historical context here.
Infinite dimensional cape.
There are tons of legendary sets in brawl in which metaknights cheats by extending their cape by just a bit to grab ledge.
THATS impossible to make rules about but is equally necessary to enforce.
I dont think your argument of “its difficult to ban in its entirety” stands up at all. We should still try to keep some competitive integrity in our game. And everyone agrees wobbling doesnt do that.
Btw, wobbling was only fully legal at 1 tournament. It goes for 8 mins and wins the game from 1 interaction. Sure aint fun
Its not cheating if its in the game, aint that what you melee guys said about wavedashing anr all that other shit? Exploiting the mechanics of the game or whatever?
wavedashing is officially mentioned by the makers of the game. That is just a mechanic. Wobbling is cheating cause people decided it is. Like using ur hands in football, you could do it. It is possible but people decided that's not how one should play the game
A bunch of fighting games have had infinites and they're all banned (Marvel vs Campcom comes immediatly to mind).
The only one who make a fuss about it is Climbers players who want their degenerate cheese back and people like you who don't seem like they ever had the pleasure to get wobbled.
@@rannynihilius8481 there are plenty of fighting games with legal infinites, what are you talking about?
17:41 i have no idea what i'm talking about, but sounds like they programmed the escape to happen at