Kind of crazy how a year ago the Ode was a solid 64mm grinder and a year later there's so many options. I feel like the market is so saturated with options. It was needed and credit to Lance for making a mega video
Wow, that was an epic tour! About the DF64V: Yes, I only used the v1 control board, 220V. Some stalling on filter setting 600-800 RPM, but none with SSP MP installed. Sounds like it's completely fixed now, which makes it even more appealing.
Loved your review! I have been struggling to decide between the DF64V or the Timemore 064s. I am leaning towards the DF for a combination of hopper design and a wider rpm range, however, I am going to wait till Christmas before committing. That gives it more time in the field. Plus I reckon they'll be a DF64v V2 by then with an ionizer ;)
Today was a good ass day for TH-cam honestly. New Hoffman, new lance, new coffeezilla, new Sabine Hossenfelder, new PBS spacetime... Holy crap I mean it was just an absolutely golden day. Now for the next few weeks of morning new lol
Thanks for doing this review! Always enjoy your content and attention to detail. I was considering a Lagom P64 but due to a 4 to 6 month wait period I purchased the Moca SD after seeing Tom Poland’s review. I have a Gaggia Classic Pro with a 6.5 spring installed and I’ve had no problems grinding fine enough. I agree about the grind adjustment knob needing better markings. I’d like to go back and forth between Moka pot and espresso sometimes but it’s really difficult to remember settings with the dots. I usually just hold my bottomless portafilter handle while it’s grinding… only takes 5 or 6 seconds to grind 18g. In general, I love the history of the brand, the small footprint and the build quality. (Edit: 6-26-23). I thought I would add that for me, the little grinds catcher works well not being attached. It makes it easier for me to dump and clean it without having to “detach “ it from the grinder base. Since I don’t move my grinder around, this suits me well.
Thank you so much for taking so much time and effort to making a huge comparison video like this. These videos are some of the best resources for people getting into the hobby to help figure out where to direct our often limited budgets. You can be sure that this will be an instant recommendation for any of my friends looking at 64mm flat burr grinders for a long long time, even as more grinders enter the market.
Yeeees, almost an hour long! Thank you for this video! I at first assumed it was going to be a roundup of all the grinders you have already reviewed, but it was so nice to see so many new ones :)
Been using the Kopi Deva for some while and if you immediately when hearing the grinding has finished do som fast on/off then it grinds 20g for about 30-40 seconds if using high rpm. Also recommend using the stand with funnel, then it wont be messy.
Your videos are engaging even for someone who is happy with their set up, I watched the whole video. I do have a couple of suggestions about production: the title does not correspond to the order of presentation (common on TH-cam ), with so many items keeping track of which you are talking about would be aided by the name inserted in the corner of the screen as it is reviewed, consider that when you are standing behind a black grinder (or handling black components) with a black tee shirt it makes items invisible. I occasionally check my grinder retention with a white cup, easier than trying to see what is coming out of the shoot. Keep up the good work.
15:57 A lot of the DF64V design was borrowed from the Lagom P64. The power button and RPM dial placement, mostly how the top burr carrier sits, and the anti-popcorn device is almost identical to the P64 (on the older version now). I'm impressed they managed get the motor that quiet grinding still sounds louder maybe, but that could be due to the burrs. Some burrs are worse sounding than others (like you mentioned the SSP MP Burrs are high pitch). The DF64V Brush looks like the same brush that came with my DF83, the brush head fell off of it before I even tried using it :D Still use-able and nice they include it.
If I’m only doing filter coffee, is the Timemore 064 worth the price jump over the Ode Gen 2? I also regularly brew 1L pots of drip, what is the capacity of the Timemore 064 hopper?
I managed to install the SSP HU in my LX Italia 65 and the difference is huge. LX is using Eureka standards burrs. So a very good choice. Better quality then Eureka grinders and with the SSP HU, I think competing with the best for espresso. Thanks for the videos, thanks for sharing so much knowledge with all of us and please keep doing them. I love it
I have received a Kopi Deva since December 2022, now I am very satisfied, my needs at home are fine. Nice design, smart and handy, the grind quality after calibration is very good, but it seems that the Ssp HU is not suitable for me, so I will switch to the Ssp LS.
64mm grinders have a huge advantage in that the burr options are much cheaper than 83mm. I would love to see you compare df64 gen2 w/ SSP MP, df64v with DLC and df83v2 with standard Itamill steel burrs as they all start to be in comparable price ranges with those burrs. If df64 + SSP MP tastes as good as df83 + standard burrs, that would be a HUGE advantage in favor of df64 gen2.
@@therichieconway in my DF83 I have the original stock Italmill burrs the new ones come with upgraded espresso burrs which are supposed to be better but probably similar profile I'd think. A good all round option for espresso where any roast works but a bit more traditional espresso style balanced body and flavour clarity. Ssp MP in 64mm for light roasts. Works well for filter or espresso but not much body usually and more acidity and flavour clarity. I think after seasoning it tones down the acidity a bit or I just got better with using them. You could also get the same burrs in 83mm but ssp in larger sizes start getting pretty pricey.
Never had the opportunity to grind on a Zerno, but I've been able to extensively mess around with the p64 and Acaia Orbit (both editions). Both 64mm grinders are absolutely wonderful. My daily driver is the Lagom P100, its just so great to use. Hoping you release a review soon, Ive seen it in the background in a few of your videos haha. Hoping to try the Zerno soon.
So far the Zerno Z1 doesn't taste much different from the P64 at the same RPM to me. I'm playing around a bit more with espresso before I swap some burrs around, right now I'm testing with SSP MP in the P64 and SSP BLIND MP in the Zerno.
The Coffee Chronicler just confirmed to me that his unit has the old control board. I'm a bit surprised, to be honest. I thought he had reviewed the latest itineration of this grinder, but I was wrong.
After watching Kyle's video, I would go with the New DF64 Version 2. Only a change to a DC motor for sound would be an improvement, but it is the killer 64 grinder. Cost, no object is the Zerno.
It's good, just the bellows on the SD is useless and worked better without it, luckily the retention is low enough you don't need it in my opinion. The burrs in those are similar to the gorilla gear or DF64v/Gen2 which are also similar to the original P64 stock burrs before Mizen was a thing. And I really enjoyed that style burr for the P64 as well as in the Oro SD when I was testing it (for espresso, didn't try any coarse grinding on that one). It's a well balanced burr, good clarity and body, seems versatile and should work nicely with any coffee types.
Finally Upgrading from my K Ultra hand grinder to an Electric. Torn on deciding between the Zerno Z1 which I have waitlist order with and the Weber Key. I think I might go Zerno with the SSP Unimodal Brew (UMV1)(Silver Knight)
31:00 Option-O Lagom P64, also goes down to either 200 or 300 RPM earlier documentation said 200 now it might say 300 so they might have changed it at some point (or they just didn't measure it correctly? lol) Max RPM is a 'normal' 1400 RPM. Impressive the battery powered Kopi Deva is powerful enough to run at such low RPM though). The Kafatek Monolith Flat goes down to to a ridiculous 20RPM (max is only 800 RPM) Weber Key also does like 30 RPM I think the max on it was like only 150RPM.
The DF64P/E grind adjust reminds me a lot of the Eureka grind adjust, but somehow way jankier. If one knows where to look, at their normal prices they're difficult to justify vs an Oro XL imo.
I've been using one with some SSP burrs for months. Kind of a total POS but once you get it setup after fucking with it for hours and buying random mods off Etsy it does work well I guess. Highly recommend anything else on this list.
The latest P64 revision IMHO is still the 64mm workflow king. Also, I really like that the P64 RPM can go really low for that pour over clarity and consistency
I think the older version may be even better, but new one is good too. I had heard more new issues with the newer P64 revision, but that could just be growing pains from updating the design, it's like whenever they start building a new model of car, there's always some issues that pop up that they gotta work out in the first year.
I bought the itop40 plus v1 with rpm control (64mm burrs) and it looks like itop watched this video because there are now 2 extra premade holes (5 in total) for other burrs.The motor is also dead quiet now
If I'm honest, espresso is a more precise, pure version of brewing. I don't much care for pour over etc. just grind courser! I just want to know which is the best single dose espresso grinder that can beat my Kinu M47 classic?
From personal experience, I can say that the Camperista3D chute for the DF64P (the one that is most commonly cited) does not help with retention or static. It actually worsened both attributes. I was better off with just the stock chute and declumper.
And of course we now have the Mazzer Philos (or will have shortly) - how will it compare? and of course the DF83V - bigger burrs but so similar to the Zerno, the timemore and Mazzer.,... I'm looking for a second grinder since my wife has decided to go decaf after noon.
TWO grinders are always more ideal if doing both daily, but I'd say go for the DF64v with SSP MP burrs for both if you like high quality lighter roast coffees mainly. Otherwise DF83 is a little more traditional / balanced. On mine (DF83 v1) I modded the declumper to open up a bit more and it reduced fines, getting more clarity and less body as a result and I think the coarser grinding performance improved as a result.
I am as excited to watch this as if its a new movie from one of my favorite directors lol. Not even going to buy any of these because i am waiting on my 078 but it is so enjoyable and interesting to watch Lance talk about grinders.
Im stuck on the fence with either the zerno + HU or the DF83 + HU (pretty much the same price in UK) from the description of flavour you made on the 83mm HU in your DF83 video im leaning towards that, but im wondering if the prebreaker on the zerno would bring the 64mm HU closer to that. plus the zerno is sexy as hell, i just don't know what to do >.
I bought the Wilfa (no scales) a few years ago. I still really like it! I know it's not stepless, but for my ignorant ass it's actually nice that I can easily repeat settings.
I've noticed the Kopi Deva, and the biggest problem I can see (as a layman coffee grinder engineer) is that the nozzle is too high above where the portafilter/catch cup would live. They're engineering all these solutions to get the filter/cup closer to the exit chute when they could make the nozzle a bit longer, it wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing, but I thought this was designed by an engineer - since when did engineers care about aesthetics???
The set screw on the Kopi Deva alone would keep me from seriously considering it. That has no place on a grinder at that price point. Plus, I seriously can't believe an F1 guy would have designed that dosing chamber that requires using a scoop.
Been eyeing the itop64 for a while now, and now that sir Lance has basically given his approval, aside from the noise and retention (which can be compensated for by the bellows), I'll be checking it out from my shopping cart.
Itop do not manufacture, they are retailers. Several other grinders you present in your channel manufactured by the same company that manufacturer that makes these two. They make over 50 different OEM models and about 100 ODM.
Hello Lance, I'm a first time watcher and you my man are a treasure.. Great presentation and editing. Extremely entertaining but also very informative. Double thumbs up👍👍🎉
Would you say there's a significant difference in taste from the df64v to say an original df64 (with italmill burrs) with a modified declumper, or is it mainly the various quality of life improvements you showed? And if there is, is it mainly due to the new DLC burrs (so if you put SSP burrs in both they'd be similar) or internal changes to the design of the grinder?
DF64's have small incremental updates and changes from v1-v5 I think, now DF64v is more like whole new grinder, they definitely took a lot of inspiration from the Lagom P64. With any new design you may get rid of the old problems but may also introduce new ones. Seems like it's a better option though form what I see / hear. Stalling at lower RPM was an issue initially but they updated that. There is ALSO another new variant which is more like a complete redo the DF64 Gen2, which is kinda like a Mini DF83 V2.
Apologies if OT, but wondering which grinder(s) if any discussed here might be suitable for Turkish coffee (*extremely* fine grind). I would be most grateful to hear from anyone who has actually tried this, and equally grateful for other affordable (US$500 or less) recommendations.
I might have missed it in a video somewhere, but I'd Really like to know how you feel about these grinders vs a lower budget option like the Ubranic 070s with an RPM dimmer switch mod. Is the Urbanic worth getting, or is it just "the best you can do for $180?" Should someone on a lower budget just try to splurge for a more expensive grinder when possible? Currently using a $100 stepless modded Capresso Infinity and haven't gotten beyond "meh" results. End goal is a Gaggia and nice grider, but am hoping to get a better grinder sooner rather than later since I think my grinder is the biggest issue atm.
Interesting reviews. What I think is missing is simultaneous review of more classic grinders. I have a manual Ceado that is bomber. What about Eureka? Rocket? The famous Rancillio Rocky? Or amasser at the high end? Prices are in the mid hundreds to 2k for Mazzer and several Ceados. But idea is whether the extra money is worth it. For me, the Ceado was in the $1k, but the motor is so powerful and the grind is so consistent, it is hard to see what more is possible.
Great video as always Lance! I am curious, do you still like the original version of the DF64? Do you think it still has it's place in the market? I currently have a DF64 V4 with stock burrs and I love it. I guess I will eventually need to buy SSP burrs, but one thing at a time. Cheers!
I went for Zerno Z1 after having watched your video about Timemore Sculptor and hearing you mentioned the Zerno Z1. It was exactly on the closed sell day and I've written to Vel asking about the access code. He answered immediately!
I don't think the pre-breaker or blind burrs are really making that much of a difference. I usually can't tell the difference at all, but still testing a bit more with espresso. I prefer the workflow, cleanliness, versatility (variable RPM, and Portafilter fork) and quiet brushless motor on the P64 better, but the Zerno isn't BAD though, it's likely going to be further improved on future editions, hopefully with the upgrades available to existing users since the grinder IS very modular it seems easy to upgrade. The retention on the chute and cup could be improved by finishing the surface smoother I believe. The Ionizer doesn't seem to do much on mine, but I think they're updating / fixing that, it's in a position where it gets blocked up by coffee grounds. I got banned for fighting with the super annoying and over-controlling / censoring admins on the espresso aficionado discord group so I'm not up to date with news if there is anything going on there lately.
@@LanceHedrick You had the faster speed auger in the first edition Z1? maybe the medium speed auger in the 2nd edition is the difference with perhaps more pre breaking going on in the faster one?
Thanks for the video Lance, just a tonne of great info. I'm a £$299 064S backer so waiting on that... from my POV, unless dropping north of a grand it still sounds like I made the right choice for my uses! Just hope the longevity is there, but always a risk with KS.
Truly conflicted. I have a Ode Gen 1 with the Gen 2 burrs installed, and while it's great for filter it just cannot do espresso. I am newly "into" espresso, so when I bought the Ode I was not thinking about that limitation. Assuming I can sell my Ode for like $200, any opinion on the best overall grinder for both filter and espresso at around the $400-$500 mark? For now, I am using a 1zpresso x-max for espresso, and while it works very well, I bought it with the intention of using it with my travel setup (which includes a aeropress with the Fellow Prismo attachment).
@@Isaac-wj9xj And even with the burrs as close as I can get them, it still isn't fine enough.. I've tried, but think it's a matter of geometry of the burrs themselves. The SSP ones "might" work, but at that price point, and the motor issue mentioned below, it really isn't worth it.
Thanks Lance. Purchase question? I'm two years in to grinding fresh. Meanwhile I have a Comandante. I manage to get better shots out my PicoPresso than workplace's $4k one touch machine, even when I'm adjusting the water temp and output. Usually, though, I'm using a Clever Dripper, or MokaPot, and recently a V60. Not sure whether it's psychosomatic, but the V60 sometimes seems to taste the sweetest and most interesting. I'm chasing sweetness and to taste more flavor notes, and draw out the uniqueness of, for example a Burundii or Ruwanda light or medium roast. 1. Which burrs do you suggest? Cast Sweet? SSP Multiplurpose? "Brew V2"? I like the concept of Unimodal or HU, but what I've read implies they would limit my options. Once I've chosen the right burrs, would I be able to taste the difference between them living in a Zerno as opposed to in a DF64V or even a Lagom P64? Do you really think the difference between augur/breakers with the Zerno is as impactful as the variable speed motor? (Doesn't the pressure of cracking beans threaten the alignment of the axel of the Zerno?) Help me Lance. Coffee is one of my favorite pleasures in life. What do I buy? Thanks for your videos!
I'm skeptical the Zerno will be much different than P64 with the same burrs, supposedly the feed rate and auger / prebreaker might have an effect on grind consistency. Which is why a lot of people slow feed the coffee into the burrs (on a P64, DF64 or most grinders), you get a more consistent grind quality and higher clarity that way. If the auger feeds it slower that's a better / easier way of kinda doing the same thing consistently. I'll have the Zerno coming with Blind SSP MP Burrs I can compare with the p64 with SSP MP burrs. Also a good time to test whether seasoning makes a big difference or not for flat burrs. I will grab a few KG's of coffee for seasoning from a local roaster for the new Zerno MP burrs.
Good question, curious if anyone's compared. Hard to really compare unless you have two similar grinders, I hear the ODE isn't as good with the same burrs as the P64 because the alignment and motor (RPM) possibly aren't as good and consistent on the ODE (that's a vertical mounted burr) but not quite a fair comparison (very different price points). VS the Zerno there's also some differences, you can try to match the Zernos set (900 I think) RPM on the P64, but there's also the Auger / prebreaker which may have an effect on grind quality. Either way I'm curious if there's any differences in grind quality / taste from the P64 vs the Zerno ill have both with the same burrs (SSP MP) soon!
I have the Zerno now, benefits of the Auger Pre-breaker and Blind burrs I'm not sure I am noticing any of that. If it is there it's pretty subtle. for Vertical burrs one benefit I can think of is for retention because it potentially is not needing a de-clumper because it just drops the coffee down like a conical burr (Zerno doesn't appear to have a declumper!) on a lot of grinders declumper bars or screens are a source of retention and potentially hold back coffee and cause regrinding. The Zerno does seem to still have retention in the chute, it's magnetic though so you just gotta knock it out. The P64 declumper is well designed and haven't noticed a problem with it, but on many DF series grinders it can be an issue.
@@BensCoffeeRants Oh, wow! Thanks, Ben, for remembering to report back in here! I myself was interested in Zerno+UnimodalV1, hoping for a taste improvement vs other 64mm setups. By the sound of it in your case the taste differences were really small? Some TH-camrs did point out large differences in taste so as usual the user experience seems to vary. I love the look of Zerno though - super pretty :-)
@@Pawel-D most of them tried the first batch with the faster feed rate auger which I assume adds more fines maybe people like that to tame the unimodalness of the ssp MP burrs. 2nd batch which I have came with the medium speed one. For future orders I think you can choose fast med or slow augers and for mine I can also purchase an additional / alternative option if i wanted.
Mazzer ZM is probably the 'best' 83mm burr grinder, there's not many options! That's a commercial beast. DF83 is your better budget and home use option :D But Why 83? There's some 78mm burr grinders coming from Timemore The 078s which SHOULD likely have SSP options but the stock burrs MAY BE alright after a lot of seasoning. 78mm may have more surface area than the 83 due to a smaller inner diameter. Lance of course loves his 80mm Weber EG1 which is a pricey and pretentious grinder.
It feels so wrong not to see the Lagom P64 in this 64mm video, as it is considered the King of all 64mm grinders. Instead, the video includes counterfeit versions of the P64 lol
Agreed. I get that a comparison can only include so many grinders, and everyone wants their favorite included, but this is a glaring omission that significantly weakens the value of the review. A passing dismissal of the P64 relative to the Zerno is not enough. None of that takes away from the hard work and dedication that this video required. Kudos.
I'll help out and fill you in. Lagom P64, is still the king ;) Zerno is also great especially if it's a lot cheaper where you are, in Canada it wasn't much cheaper than a P64, and you're more likely to find a P64 on the used market than a Zerno Z1 since there's not as many out in the wild yet. I had the Eureka Oro Single Dose which should be similar to the XL. I really liked the 2nd / updated 1.1 version of it, once I realized the workflow and consistency were much improved if you just forget it comes with a bellows. The bellows is useless and usually detrimental on Eureka grinders, it's funny it comes with one yet doesn't seem to work. Luckily retention is low enough that I don't think it needs a bellows. The burrs seemed very similar to the older Stock P64 burrs which I enjoyed (they also look very similar to the Gorilla Gear burrs or the new DF64v and Gen2 burrs) they're both nice balanced all round burrs. Good body and flavour clarity, and should work with most coffee types and roast levels. On the P64 the was great for filter coffee too, on the Eureka I didn't even attempt going coarser to filter range, because the Eureka dial isn't great for switching back and forth. But I suspect it would be decent, just good luck finding your espresso grind size again later.
It's a good review, he can't possibly have every grinder ever although this comes pretty close lol But yeah the Lack of the P64 and how he seemed dismissive of it, saying people always prefer the Zerno is likely not the case. I have both and was expecting the Zerno to be somehow different, but guess what with both having SSP MP burrs, it tastes like they both have SSP MP burrs. Very hard to tell any differences, besides when one is dialed in better than the other. I should be happy the Zerno is as good as the P64, but with all this hype I'm a bit disappointed. I feel the workflow and cleanliness and versatility is better on the P64 though.
Sticking with my trusty second hand Mazzer Superjolly moded for singledosing. Gettting near on zero retention and tasty coffee. Not suffering from FOMO yet...😅
1zpresso ZP6, Timemore 078, Zerno or P64 with SSP MP or Brew Burrs (listed by price low to high) Lance would probably also say The Pietro with his burrs, I haven't tried em but should be good :) Also haven't tried ZP6, Timemore or Zerno yet, or the SSP brew burrs, but word on the street and from Lance seems those are the top choices for P.O.)
Kind of crazy how a year ago the Ode was a solid 64mm grinder and a year later there's so many options. I feel like the market is so saturated with options. It was needed and credit to Lance for making a mega video
Wow, that was an epic tour! About the DF64V: Yes, I only used the v1 control board, 220V. Some stalling on filter setting 600-800 RPM, but none with SSP MP installed. Sounds like it's completely fixed now, which makes it even more appealing.
Loved your review! I have been struggling to decide between the DF64V or the Timemore 064s. I am leaning towards the DF for a combination of hopper design and a wider rpm range, however, I am going to wait till Christmas before committing. That gives it more time in the field. Plus I reckon they'll be a DF64v V2 by then with an ionizer ;)
@@tomwatchesyoutubestill no ionizer :(
@@nickn.7204ionizer now available on v2
Daddy Hoff and Lance, dropping new videos at almost the same time today. Life is good.
😊
😊
Fact
Daddy Hoff and Poppa Lance?
Today was a good ass day for TH-cam honestly.
New Hoffman, new lance, new coffeezilla, new Sabine Hossenfelder, new PBS spacetime... Holy crap I mean it was just an absolutely golden day.
Now for the next few weeks of morning new lol
Dang... that Kopi Deva 64 is a thing of beauty! no cords but once a month or so is really nice too!
Thanks for doing this review! Always enjoy your content and attention to detail.
I was considering a Lagom P64 but due to a 4 to 6 month wait period I purchased the Moca SD after seeing Tom Poland’s review. I have a Gaggia Classic Pro with a 6.5 spring installed and I’ve had no problems grinding fine enough.
I agree about the grind adjustment knob needing better markings. I’d like to go back and forth between Moka pot and espresso sometimes but it’s really difficult to remember settings with the dots.
I usually just hold my bottomless portafilter handle while it’s grinding… only takes 5 or 6 seconds to grind 18g.
In general, I love the history of the brand, the small footprint and the build quality.
(Edit: 6-26-23). I thought I would add that for me, the little grinds catcher works well not being attached. It makes it easier for me to dump and clean it without having to “detach “ it from the grinder base. Since I don’t move my grinder around, this suits me well.
16:10 Although not Charlie Puth, it is a b-flat (and the wave spring is half a tone higher…bravo for noticing the difference 👏🏼)
Thank you so much for taking so much time and effort to making a huge comparison video like this. These videos are some of the best resources for people getting into the hobby to help figure out where to direct our often limited budgets. You can be sure that this will be an instant recommendation for any of my friends looking at 64mm flat burr grinders for a long long time, even as more grinders enter the market.
Yeeees, almost an hour long! Thank you for this video! I at first assumed it was going to be a roundup of all the grinders you have already reviewed, but it was so nice to see so many new ones :)
Been using the Kopi Deva for some while and if you immediately when hearing the grinding has finished do som fast on/off then it grinds 20g for about 30-40 seconds if using high rpm. Also recommend using the stand with funnel, then it wont be messy.
I got df64v and i am very happy! Didnt experience any stalling with the latest board & medium roast.
Your videos are engaging even for someone who is happy with their set up, I watched the whole video. I do have a couple of suggestions about production: the title does not correspond to the order of presentation (common on TH-cam ), with so many items keeping track of which you are talking about would be aided by the name inserted in the corner of the screen as it is reviewed, consider that when you are standing behind a black grinder (or handling black components) with a black tee shirt it makes items invisible. I occasionally check my grinder retention with a white cup, easier than trying to see what is coming out of the shoot. Keep up the good work.
15:57 A lot of the DF64V design was borrowed from the Lagom P64. The power button and RPM dial placement, mostly how the top burr carrier sits, and the anti-popcorn device is almost identical to the P64 (on the older version now).
I'm impressed they managed get the motor that quiet grinding still sounds louder maybe, but that could be due to the burrs. Some burrs are worse sounding than others (like you mentioned the SSP MP Burrs are high pitch).
The DF64V Brush looks like the same brush that came with my DF83, the brush head fell off of it before I even tried using it :D Still use-able and nice they include it.
If I’m only doing filter coffee, is the Timemore 064 worth the price jump over the Ode Gen 2? I also regularly brew 1L pots of drip, what is the capacity of the Timemore 064 hopper?
Still here with my 54mm Forte BG for pourovers. Great video nonetheless - gotta see what everyone is up to!
I managed to install the SSP HU in my LX Italia 65 and the difference is huge. LX is using Eureka standards burrs. So a very good choice. Better quality then Eureka grinders and with the SSP HU, I think competing with the best for espresso. Thanks for the videos, thanks for sharing so much knowledge with all of us and please keep doing them. I love it
Amazing content! I’m waiting on the 078s as a companion to my Flair 58.
I have received a Kopi Deva since December 2022, now I am very satisfied, my needs at home are fine. Nice design, smart and handy, the grind quality after calibration is very good, but it seems that the Ssp HU is not suitable for me, so I will switch to the Ssp LS.
I did take my Kopi apart. Good news is the battery is just an RC car battery. Can be picked up at any your hobby store.
That's interesting and kinda funny. I guess it's good those things have some POWER!
64mm grinders have a huge advantage in that the burr options are much cheaper than 83mm. I would love to see you compare df64 gen2 w/ SSP MP, df64v with DLC and df83v2 with standard Itamill steel burrs as they all start to be in comparable price ranges with those burrs. If df64 + SSP MP tastes as good as df83 + standard burrs, that would be a HUGE advantage in favor of df64 gen2.
DF83 and 64mm SSP MP are very different profiles, they're both good in their own way and best for different coffees.
@@BensCoffeeRants What do you recommend them for?
@@therichieconway in my DF83 I have the original stock Italmill burrs the new ones come with upgraded espresso burrs which are supposed to be better but probably similar profile I'd think. A good all round option for espresso where any roast works but a bit more traditional espresso style balanced body and flavour clarity.
Ssp MP in 64mm for light roasts. Works well for filter or espresso but not much body usually and more acidity and flavour clarity. I think after seasoning it tones down the acidity a bit or I just got better with using them. You could also get the same burrs in 83mm but ssp in larger sizes start getting pretty pricey.
I like portafilter forks...not for the portafilter, but for universal catch cups / tumblers / blinds.
Never had the opportunity to grind on a Zerno, but I've been able to extensively mess around with the p64 and Acaia Orbit (both editions). Both 64mm grinders are absolutely wonderful. My daily driver is the Lagom P100, its just so great to use. Hoping you release a review soon, Ive seen it in the background in a few of your videos haha. Hoping to try the Zerno soon.
So far the Zerno Z1 doesn't taste much different from the P64 at the same RPM to me. I'm playing around a bit more with espresso before I swap some burrs around, right now I'm testing with SSP MP in the P64 and SSP BLIND MP in the Zerno.
The Coffee Chronicler just confirmed to me that his unit has the old control board. I'm a bit surprised, to be honest. I thought he had reviewed the latest itineration of this grinder, but I was wrong.
After watching Kyle's video, I would go with the New DF64 Version 2. Only a change to a DC motor for sound would be an improvement, but it is the killer 64 grinder. Cost, no object is the Zerno.
How is the Eureka Oro Mignon XL or SD not in this lineup???
I was curious too, I imagine it's that they market as "65mm" but even in Lance's video on the SD he mentions how they are actually 64mm.
It's good, just the bellows on the SD is useless and worked better without it, luckily the retention is low enough you don't need it in my opinion. The burrs in those are similar to the gorilla gear or DF64v/Gen2 which are also similar to the original P64 stock burrs before Mizen was a thing. And I really enjoyed that style burr for the P64 as well as in the Oro SD when I was testing it (for espresso, didn't try any coarse grinding on that one). It's a well balanced burr, good clarity and body, seems versatile and should work nicely with any coffee types.
Finally Upgrading from my K Ultra hand grinder to an Electric. Torn on deciding between the Zerno Z1 which I have waitlist order with and the Weber Key. I think I might go Zerno with the SSP Unimodal Brew (UMV1)(Silver Knight)
Stalling? Lance, kindly please, introduce us the the little 98mm white fraulein over your left shoulder, there waiting in the corner?
Thank for reviewing these as you have covered grinders that no one else is reviewing as well as the youtube reviewer staples, love your honesty too.
31:00 Option-O Lagom P64, also goes down to either 200 or 300 RPM earlier documentation said 200 now it might say 300 so they might have changed it at some point (or they just didn't measure it correctly? lol) Max RPM is a 'normal' 1400 RPM. Impressive the battery powered Kopi Deva is powerful enough to run at such low RPM though).
The Kafatek Monolith Flat goes down to to a ridiculous 20RPM (max is only 800 RPM) Weber Key also does like 30 RPM I think the max on it was like only 150RPM.
21:56 "you can screw from the back or the front it doesn't matter" :D
Excellent comparison video. Thank you so much! However, none of those grinders are blowing up my skirt.
The DF64P/E grind adjust reminds me a lot of the Eureka grind adjust, but somehow way jankier. If one knows where to look, at their normal prices they're difficult to justify vs an Oro XL imo.
I've been using one with some SSP burrs for months. Kind of a total POS but once you get it setup after fucking with it for hours and buying random mods off Etsy it does work well I guess. Highly recommend anything else on this list.
The latest P64 revision IMHO is still the 64mm workflow king. Also, I really like that the P64 RPM can go really low for that pour over clarity and consistency
Which revision would that be?
@@Drift-yf4rn Late December 2022/Early 2023
I think the older version may be even better, but new one is good too. I had heard more new issues with the newer P64 revision, but that could just be growing pains from updating the design, it's like whenever they start building a new model of car, there's always some issues that pop up that they gotta work out in the first year.
the freestyle 'music' was the highlight of the video, not to say the content wasn't good... but the beatbox was ace
Thanks for this Mega 64 grinder review! Good stuff.. How do u manage to remember all the grinder specs by heart... Amazing!
I bought the itop40 plus v1 with rpm control (64mm burrs) and it looks like itop watched this video because there are now 2 extra premade holes (5 in total) for other burrs.The motor is also dead quiet now
If I'm honest, espresso is a more precise, pure version of brewing. I don't much care for pour over etc. just grind courser! I just want to know which is the best single dose espresso grinder that can beat my Kinu M47 classic?
From personal experience, I can say that the Camperista3D chute for the DF64P (the one that is most commonly cited) does not help with retention or static. It actually worsened both attributes. I was better off with just the stock chute and declumper.
Makes me pretty happy with my old Ode. One wouldnt expect that making good usable 64mm grinder is so hard. :D
Hi, for only filter coffee, is DF64V change burr to SSP RS MP is the good choice?(Need lightness and clearity, not big machine)
Dang, so many grinders that i've never seen before. Amazing vid as always!
And of course we now have the Mazzer Philos (or will have shortly) - how will it compare? and of course the DF83V - bigger burrs but so similar to the Zerno, the timemore and Mazzer.,... I'm looking for a second grinder since my wife has decided to go decaf after noon.
Thinking between DF83 and DF64V , for espresso and filter sometimes. What do you suggest ?
Same here. I know he really enjoyed the DF83 with SSP HU, but that's near 1k 😅
TWO grinders are always more ideal if doing both daily, but I'd say go for the DF64v with SSP MP burrs for both if you like high quality lighter roast coffees mainly. Otherwise DF83 is a little more traditional / balanced. On mine (DF83 v1) I modded the declumper to open up a bit more and it reduced fines, getting more clarity and less body as a result and I think the coarser grinding performance improved as a result.
I am as excited to watch this as if its a new movie from one of my favorite directors lol. Not even going to buy any of these because i am waiting on my 078 but it is so enjoyable and interesting to watch Lance talk about grinders.
Im stuck on the fence with either the zerno + HU or the DF83 + HU (pretty much the same price in UK)
from the description of flavour you made on the 83mm HU in your DF83 video im leaning towards that, but im wondering if the prebreaker on the zerno would bring the 64mm HU closer to that. plus the zerno is sexy as hell, i just don't know what to do >.
Came first time to check his review of my grinder. Then came back a couple of times to listen to that beatboxing again ❤❤
I bought the Wilfa (no scales) a few years ago. I still really like it! I know it's not stepless, but for my ignorant ass it's actually nice that I can easily repeat settings.
Thank you Lance for this video! It helped me buy my next grinder and FINALLY get into the flat burr scene for a reasonably low cost
I've noticed the Kopi Deva, and the biggest problem I can see (as a layman coffee grinder engineer) is that the nozzle is too high above where the portafilter/catch cup would live.
They're engineering all these solutions to get the filter/cup closer to the exit chute when they could make the nozzle a bit longer, it wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing, but I thought this was designed by an engineer - since when did engineers care about aesthetics???
Thanks for the mentions Lance, that's pretty classy I reckon. Appreciated.
The set screw on the Kopi Deva alone would keep me from seriously considering it. That has no place on a grinder at that price point. Plus, I seriously can't believe an F1 guy would have designed that dosing chamber that requires using a scoop.
Thank you Lance 😁👍👍 Really appreciate all your great work and advice! How does the DF64V compare to the DF83? Thanks in advance
Been eyeing the itop64 for a while now, and now that sir Lance has basically given his approval, aside from the noise and retention (which can be compensated for by the bellows), I'll be checking it out from my shopping cart.
Any update on the itop?
I decided to wait till Christmas before getting a new grinder, and I think I'll just save up a bit more for either the DF64 Gen 2 or the DF64V
this was just a fun video to watch, even if i have pietro and am waiting for 078s … thank you ☺️
Itop do not manufacture, they are retailers. Several other grinders you present in your channel manufactured by the same company that manufacturer that makes these two. They make over 50 different OEM models and about 100 ODM.
Love my old. If it had the radial knocker and the grind shoot extended all the way into the cup, 4 no mess, it would be perfect.
Hello Lance, I'm a first time watcher and you my man are a treasure..
Great presentation and editing. Extremely entertaining but also very informative.
Double thumbs up👍👍🎉
Hello lance ty for the video. Do you know if you get your hands on the acaia orbit at any time? :-) i am thinking about this one or the zerno.
Would you say there's a significant difference in taste from the df64v to say an original df64 (with italmill burrs) with a modified declumper, or is it mainly the various quality of life improvements you showed?
And if there is, is it mainly due to the new DLC burrs (so if you put SSP burrs in both they'd be similar) or internal changes to the design of the grinder?
DF64's have small incremental updates and changes from v1-v5 I think, now DF64v is more like whole new grinder, they definitely took a lot of inspiration from the Lagom P64. With any new design you may get rid of the old problems but may also introduce new ones. Seems like it's a better option though form what I see / hear. Stalling at lower RPM was an issue initially but they updated that. There is ALSO another new variant which is more like a complete redo the DF64 Gen2, which is kinda like a Mini DF83 V2.
love how you mentioned the lithium part definitely not ideal to mine / source (on the deva)
Apologies if OT, but wondering which grinder(s) if any discussed here might be suitable for Turkish coffee (*extremely* fine grind). I would be most grateful to hear from anyone who has actually tried this, and equally grateful for other affordable (US$500 or less) recommendations.
I might have missed it in a video somewhere, but I'd Really like to know how you feel about these grinders vs a lower budget option like the Ubranic 070s with an RPM dimmer switch mod. Is the Urbanic worth getting, or is it just "the best you can do for $180?" Should someone on a lower budget just try to splurge for a more expensive grinder when possible? Currently using a $100 stepless modded Capresso Infinity and haven't gotten beyond "meh" results. End goal is a Gaggia and nice grider, but am hoping to get a better grinder sooner rather than later since I think my grinder is the biggest issue atm.
Interesting reviews. What I think is missing is simultaneous review of more classic grinders. I have a manual Ceado that is bomber. What about Eureka? Rocket? The famous Rancillio Rocky? Or amasser at the high end? Prices are in the mid hundreds to 2k for Mazzer and several Ceados. But idea is whether the extra money is worth it. For me, the Ceado was in the $1k, but the motor is so powerful and the grind is so consistent, it is hard to see what more is possible.
So between df64 and itop64 which one is a better buy?
51:15 that's some pretty bad popcorning though. I'd want to open it, drop the beans in and close it ASAP (But that will turn the grinder off?)
Great video as always Lance! I am curious, do you still like the original version of the DF64? Do you think it still has it's place in the market? I currently have a DF64 V4 with stock burrs and I love it. I guess I will eventually need to buy SSP burrs, but one thing at a time.
Cheers!
Just got my v4 also, love it :)
I went for Zerno Z1 after having watched your video about Timemore Sculptor and hearing you mentioned the Zerno Z1. It was exactly on the closed sell day and I've written to Vel asking about the access code. He answered immediately!
What wait. I thought the sale was closed for the grinder till august?
@@ahpadt I meant the video in may. There was a presale 9th may
@@sercheese gotcha.. i passed then but may get it in the next batch..
wow i've had too much coffee - that Kopi slam freaked me out lol
Grinding on the G64 sounds like a fast-forwarding cassette tape
But worse…😬
i'm using it with ssp Hu it's not that bad haha
Me watching videos on single-dosing grinders: 🤤
My on-demand grinder looking at me: 👿
0:00-0:30 Hey Lance: No grinder shaming Dude!!! 🤣🤣🤣
Hi Lance, for pour over, I'm using a C40 now, would DF64v make a significant improve in taste? thanks 🙏🙏🙏
That I'm questioning too.
I was interested in playing in the 64mm space and the Zerno jumped out as the obvious choice. I have one on order. Nice to hear a little confirmation.
I don't think the pre-breaker or blind burrs are really making that much of a difference. I usually can't tell the difference at all, but still testing a bit more with espresso. I prefer the workflow, cleanliness, versatility (variable RPM, and Portafilter fork) and quiet brushless motor on the P64 better, but the Zerno isn't BAD though, it's likely going to be further improved on future editions, hopefully with the upgrades available to existing users since the grinder IS very modular it seems easy to upgrade. The retention on the chute and cup could be improved by finishing the surface smoother I believe. The Ionizer doesn't seem to do much on mine, but I think they're updating / fixing that, it's in a position where it gets blocked up by coffee grounds. I got banned for fighting with the super annoying and over-controlling / censoring admins on the espresso aficionado discord group so I'm not up to date with news if there is anything going on there lately.
Shocked you can't tell much of a difference
@@LanceHedrick You had the faster speed auger in the first edition Z1? maybe the medium speed auger in the 2nd edition is the difference with perhaps more pre breaking going on in the faster one?
@@BensCoffeeRants I have both
@@LanceHedrick ah nice. So do you notice any differences? I'm curious how the different augers would affect things.
I heard YYZ (from Rush) on that anti-popcorn device.
I knew that sounded familiar. Woot, Toronto represent!
Thanks for the video Lance, just a tonne of great info. I'm a £$299 064S backer so waiting on that... from my POV, unless dropping north of a grand it still sounds like I made the right choice for my uses! Just hope the longevity is there, but always a risk with KS.
Truly conflicted. I have a Ode Gen 1 with the Gen 2 burrs installed, and while it's great for filter it just cannot do espresso. I am newly "into" espresso, so when I bought the Ode I was not thinking about that limitation. Assuming I can sell my Ode for like $200, any opinion on the best overall grinder for both filter and espresso at around the $400-$500 mark? For now, I am using a 1zpresso x-max for espresso, and while it works very well, I bought it with the intention of using it with my travel setup (which includes a aeropress with the Fellow Prismo attachment).
sculptor 78s
It cant do espresso because of the limit in dialling in? I saw people do mod to make it stepless would that not work?
@@Isaac-wj9xjmotor isnt really rated for spro
@@ahpadt ah so lots of stalling
@@Isaac-wj9xj And even with the burrs as close as I can get them, it still isn't fine enough.. I've tried, but think it's a matter of geometry of the burrs themselves. The SSP ones "might" work, but at that price point, and the motor issue mentioned below, it really isn't worth it.
Hell yeah. Just called in sick today and new hour long Grindr video drops!!
You can also include the zf64 the cheapest grind by weight grinder. Aeems no one had a review yet of this grinder
Oh I miss these long videos. I know change happens but we still need long form Lance!
Firstly you say DF64V is brushless, but then you show the brush which comes with it! 😄
Lance, thanks for just being you
Appreciate your use of unique.
What better grinder is varia or timemore?
Can you check if the burrs from moca sd fit the other 64mm grinders.
Your face on the sounds. Hugo sounds on F1. All I take from this video ahahah ah and... of course, trying to get my hands on the next Zerno batch ;)
Thanks Lance. Purchase question? I'm two years in to grinding fresh. Meanwhile I have a Comandante. I manage to get better shots out my PicoPresso than workplace's $4k one touch machine, even when I'm adjusting the water temp and output. Usually, though, I'm using a Clever Dripper, or MokaPot, and recently a V60.
Not sure whether it's psychosomatic, but the V60 sometimes seems to taste the sweetest and most interesting.
I'm chasing sweetness and to taste more flavor notes, and draw out the uniqueness of, for example a Burundii or Ruwanda light or medium roast.
1. Which burrs do you suggest? Cast Sweet? SSP Multiplurpose? "Brew V2"? I like the concept of Unimodal or HU, but what I've read implies they would limit my options.
Once I've chosen the right burrs, would I be able to taste the difference between them living in a Zerno as opposed to in a DF64V or even a Lagom P64?
Do you really think the difference between augur/breakers with the Zerno is as impactful as the variable speed motor? (Doesn't the pressure of cracking beans threaten the alignment of the axel of the Zerno?)
Help me Lance. Coffee is one of my favorite pleasures in life. What do I buy?
Thanks for your videos!
I also have the same question. Did you ever get any feedback?
@@hawkspur85 Not yet. Hey Lance, please share the expertise!
I'm skeptical the Zerno will be much different than P64 with the same burrs, supposedly the feed rate and auger / prebreaker might have an effect on grind consistency. Which is why a lot of people slow feed the coffee into the burrs (on a P64, DF64 or most grinders), you get a more consistent grind quality and higher clarity that way. If the auger feeds it slower that's a better / easier way of kinda doing the same thing consistently. I'll have the Zerno coming with Blind SSP MP Burrs I can compare with the p64 with SSP MP burrs.
Also a good time to test whether seasoning makes a big difference or not for flat burrs. I will grab a few KG's of coffee for seasoning from a local roaster for the new Zerno MP burrs.
"I am a sucker for vertically mounted burrs" - Lance, what are the benefits of vertically mounted burrs? Do they impact the taste in the cup?
Good question, curious if anyone's compared. Hard to really compare unless you have two similar grinders, I hear the ODE isn't as good with the same burrs as the P64 because the alignment and motor (RPM) possibly aren't as good and consistent on the ODE (that's a vertical mounted burr) but not quite a fair comparison (very different price points). VS the Zerno there's also some differences, you can try to match the Zernos set (900 I think) RPM on the P64, but there's also the Auger / prebreaker which may have an effect on grind quality.
Either way I'm curious if there's any differences in grind quality / taste from the P64 vs the Zerno ill have both with the same burrs (SSP MP) soon!
@@BensCoffeeRants Thanks, Ben.
I have the Zerno now, benefits of the Auger Pre-breaker and Blind burrs I'm not sure I am noticing any of that. If it is there it's pretty subtle.
for Vertical burrs one benefit I can think of is for retention because it potentially is not needing a de-clumper because it just drops the coffee down like a conical burr (Zerno doesn't appear to have a declumper!) on a lot of grinders declumper bars or screens are a source of retention and potentially hold back coffee and cause regrinding. The Zerno does seem to still have retention in the chute, it's magnetic though so you just gotta knock it out.
The P64 declumper is well designed and haven't noticed a problem with it, but on many DF series grinders it can be an issue.
@@BensCoffeeRants Oh, wow! Thanks, Ben, for remembering to report back in here! I myself was interested in Zerno+UnimodalV1, hoping for a taste improvement vs other 64mm setups. By the sound of it in your case the taste differences were really small? Some TH-camrs did point out large differences in taste so as usual the user experience seems to vary. I love the look of Zerno though - super pretty :-)
@@Pawel-D most of them tried the first batch with the faster feed rate auger which I assume adds more fines maybe people like that to tame the unimodalness of the ssp MP burrs. 2nd batch which I have came with the medium speed one. For future orders I think you can choose fast med or slow augers and for mine I can also purchase an additional / alternative option if i wanted.
Where can I buy timemore 064 in Canada?
Best 83mm burr grinder? Is there a big enough jump from 64mm to 83mm to warrant an upgrade? I have a DF64 HU SSP burr.
Mazzer ZM is probably the 'best' 83mm burr grinder, there's not many options! That's a commercial beast. DF83 is your better budget and home use option :D
But Why 83? There's some 78mm burr grinders coming from Timemore The 078s which SHOULD likely have SSP options but the stock burrs MAY BE alright after a lot of seasoning.
78mm may have more surface area than the 83 due to a smaller inner diameter. Lance of course loves his 80mm Weber EG1 which is a pricey and pretentious grinder.
are those the "for multipurpose" or "for pourover" burrs on the aliex listing of the itop64? Neither look super like the MPs in those pictures
please do a full review of the ITOP 64mm grinder.
Shirt brings me back to the old setup
How is the tolerances and alignment on the df64v?
It feels so wrong not to see the Lagom P64 in this 64mm video, as it is considered the King of all 64mm grinders. Instead, the video includes counterfeit versions of the P64 lol
And how is the Eureka Oro Mignon XL not on the list either??
Agreed. I get that a comparison can only include so many grinders, and everyone wants their favorite included, but this is a glaring omission that significantly weakens the value of the review. A passing dismissal of the P64 relative to the Zerno is not enough. None of that takes away from the hard work and dedication that this video required. Kudos.
I'll help out and fill you in. Lagom P64, is still the king ;) Zerno is also great especially if it's a lot cheaper where you are, in Canada it wasn't much cheaper than a P64, and you're more likely to find a P64 on the used market than a Zerno Z1 since there's not as many out in the wild yet.
I had the Eureka Oro Single Dose which should be similar to the XL. I really liked the 2nd / updated 1.1 version of it, once I realized the workflow and consistency were much improved if you just forget it comes with a bellows. The bellows is useless and usually detrimental on Eureka grinders, it's funny it comes with one yet doesn't seem to work. Luckily retention is low enough that I don't think it needs a bellows. The burrs seemed very similar to the older Stock P64 burrs which I enjoyed (they also look very similar to the Gorilla Gear burrs or the new DF64v and Gen2 burrs) they're both nice balanced all round burrs. Good body and flavour clarity, and should work with most coffee types and roast levels. On the P64 the was great for filter coffee too, on the Eureka I didn't even attempt going coarser to filter range, because the Eureka dial isn't great for switching back and forth. But I suspect it would be decent, just good luck finding your espresso grind size again later.
It's a good review, he can't possibly have every grinder ever although this comes pretty close lol But yeah the Lack of the P64 and how he seemed dismissive of it, saying people always prefer the Zerno is likely not the case. I have both and was expecting the Zerno to be somehow different, but guess what with both having SSP MP burrs, it tastes like they both have SSP MP burrs. Very hard to tell any differences, besides when one is dialed in better than the other.
I should be happy the Zerno is as good as the P64, but with all this hype I'm a bit disappointed. I feel the workflow and cleanliness and versatility is better on the P64 though.
Your video entries always get me 😂
Sticking with my trusty second hand Mazzer Superjolly moded for singledosing. Gettting near on zero retention and tasty coffee. Not suffering from FOMO yet...😅
ONLY an hour? Slacker... 😅
Thanks for the great content!
Thanks for Sharing 👍
Without further ado, I'll ado this sponsor intermission 😂
Amazing video as always Mr. Lance, as always!
What’s the best grinder I can get for pour over? I drink mostly unwashed varietals.
Better wash them with some hot water!
1zpresso ZP6, Timemore 078, Zerno or P64 with SSP MP or Brew Burrs (listed by price low to high)
Lance would probably also say The Pietro with his burrs, I haven't tried em but should be good :) Also haven't tried ZP6, Timemore or Zerno yet, or the SSP brew burrs, but word on the street and from Lance seems those are the top choices for P.O.)