so basically thanx to the Vatican and Christianity its taken 2500yrs for us to work out why hygiene and bathing with soap and water(over oil and scraping) helps us live longer so we became enlightened as we extended the length of time we have to r n d ie learn taking an awfully long time to learn god is a fiction 4000yrs of fear tactics to control the plebes some things will never change as we refuse to learn our tech moves forward but most minds r still stuck in mud!!!!!!!
hes a shite historian , the man christ the woman the church!!!!!??????? but sure just ignore that the early Christian cults all had different views on Christ fyi for most Christ was not Jesus!!! and Jesus was against the treasury sry mean temple\church!!!
Christians just love laying claim to human rites ummmm no mate defo not murder blood cults r the opposite of human rites baby boys have rite to their foreskin women the rite to autonomy humans the rite to not be murdered for thoughts or thinking hes a moron
Would Triggemometry be interested in the history of a woman who descended from the Bruce linage by Robert the first Stewart down to James Stewart 7th Earl of Atholl as well as 7th Earl Innermeath, who was banished to England for refusing to enter marriage by incest. That linage was the maternal descent her paternal descent was by the Israelite High Priest linage of Judah down to the Maccabees. That woman has an important message that would end world tyranny.
Listening to Tom Holland last year was a part of our Awakening again to our Christian heritage as the roots of Western Civilization and the waters we swim in. In deepest gratitude to Tom Holland. (And to you both and Triggernometry).
I feel the same. Holland has been part of my Christian awakening. Between Holland and Peterson I am closer now to my true inner religion than ever in my life.
As I grew up in the 1970s I found Carl Jung's ideas liberated me from materialism. I thoroughly enjoy reading the scriptures as a consequence of Dr Jung's ideas. Don Cupitt's attempt to get people to view the effect of modernism on the human creature in his book and TV series The Sea of Faith in the 1980s was a similar attempt to those of Peterson and Johnathan Pageau, but it failed to gain traction with the public's imagination. I spent several years in the Middle East where I learned that Islam is a distinctively different to Christianity. It appears dead and authoritarian to me. Disappointed Tom Holland thinks destroying statues can be approved of in the same interview he discusses ISIS. He seems dismissive of the lessons that statues bear witness to, and agrees with Critical Race Theory that evidence of past values being swept away is just as important as acknowledging and tolerating ugly ideas - which is the foundation of the liberal idea.
@@AndyJarman Thanks for flagging up Don Cupitt's series. I have just found it on youtube and will give it my attention. Not having a tv for the vast majority of my life, child and adult, has protected me from a lot of drivel, but one has also missed some of the gems. Thank Goodness for youtube (!) I too gained vast insight from my reading of Jung, but I wasn't quite up to reading the whole canon. There is a lot to wade through! I thought it odd that Holland approved of pulling down the Coulston statue. Not cool! Still, some good things are happening, in that there are two new political parties afoot - Heritage Party and Laurence Fox's new idea. There is hope yet! Best wishes.
The great Chesterton said it all and more neatly many years ago: The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful. I would have appreciated it more had Holland stressed more the madness of modern virtues.
"The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful." Awesome quote!
Jim Luebke pity helps no one..it keeps them in a victim mode...ie powerless and helpless. People can only be empowered when they find a way not to believe their disempowering thoughts ...one such way is Byron Katie’s ‘ the work’
@@sheilakirwan9462 I think there's a valid point to be made against "being pitiless", that doesn't involve dependency. Taking some care to slow down in school zones just in case a kid runs into the street, isn't the same as teaching a kid it's OK to run into the street.
Brilliant interview. Fascinating. These historians could really help society understand itself and develop in the right way if more people would just listen to them,
Tom is articulating things which I have been mulling over for a long time, however, he has thought it through far more clearly and he contextualises current social attitudes brilliantly because of his understanding of history.
What a wonderful interview with an extraordinary, thoughtful and decent man. My only regret is that such people are so rare, still less influential, in the modern world.
Tom Holland is fantastic. He separates himself as objectively from the brutalities of history as he does today's. It gives me the sense that his eye sees a greater truth.
An interesting and informative interview. Tom Holland shows his historical and intellectual class and refuses to be drawn into anti-woke tropes. In fact he, despite the leading questions, skilfully schools the interviewers in the benefits of progressive thinking without as much as a peep in response. I for one enjoyed this and learned a lot.
This was without doubt the most interesting and educational episode of Triggernometry I have seen! Thank you to Konstantin and Francis for the platform, and thank you to Tom for doing the interview.
Loved listening to Tom Holland. He makes such thoughtful and though invoking points. The hosts seemed to be sadly blinkered however. They seemed incredibly egar to make it entirely about scoring political points, asking subtbly emotive questions rather objective. Not really listening to what he was saying and exploring the depth of what he was offering.
Really interesting perspective from Tom. Love his books and found this historical contextualisation of the current politics somehow reassuring. Happy to be a subscriber supporting these long-form interviews and guests. Keep up the good work.
I think the main reason why wokeness is not progress is because they firmly believe that the antidote to discrimination is more discrimination, which just locks us into an eternal cycle of grievance mongering and using victimhood as an excuse to victimize others. Their ideology is also collectivist, and collectivism is extremely regressive.
"Progress" was pwned by US Democrats. So I think we can say that "progress" is woke, rather than woke is progressive. It's such a compromised word; an entire catalogue of, literally, reactionary ideas were branded progressive by the Dems. Instead, realists should talk of advancement, or improvement.
It lacks compassion. While moral grandstanding and saying they represent the victims. It creats a discourse where people aren't listening to each other. Where people who could be allies, can't get it right and get attacked for everything. It's an unhealthy way to approach love
I totally agree! Even though this time I'm finding myself disagreeing with a lot of what the guest has to say. Still good to hear the different viewpoints!
I don't know what you guys did but this was at last a really quality interview. This level is what brought me to watching you in the first place. I hope you keep up the good work.
I don’t think he’s ‘anti-woke’ as such, at least he doesn’t define himself that way. He’s just aware of the historical context more than most. I recommend his books if you like history. He’s one of the best writers out there.
An extremely important discussion to be having at this time concerning the West’s religious DNA and how it explains the moral crisis our societies are going through. It’s great how you guys really get into the nitty gritty of these topics and do justice to them in your interviews, please keep them coming.
I've read everything by Tom Holland. Me and my best friend have been fans for the better part of a decade. I'm over the moon and not surprised that he's anti woke. Any historian worth their salt couldn't help but rebuke this filth.
I'm heterosexual but I have a MASSIVE brain crush on this man! :-D So structured, articulate and crystal clear. And, as it happens, I totally agree with his views and analysis. In fact, I've been saying what he's saying for quite some time now, only that I lack the theological/historical detailled knowledge and can't express myself as eloquently.
Thanks guys, this was def one of the most enjoyable episodes so far! (And a pink shirt styled so well, you can all be inspired for the rest of the holiday after the red sock incident.)
As someone with multiple university degrees studying recently at university again, our universities are heavily hijacked. It’s NOT arts, it’s everywhere. I’ll say it again! It’s NOT arts. Free speech? Dead. Critical thinking? Dead! The MOST important attribute is identity politics. I don’t think there’s a lecture where identity politics isn’t slipped in. Then there’s overt aggression in lectures and seminars (mostly seminars due to lack of camera recordings). The bullying is intense ... by staff!
@@lariatjb Evergreen College enrollment went into free-fall after the Weinstein incident. You can learn the skills for most gainful employment online, now. Woke universities can be safely abandoned, and nothing of value will be lost. Traditionalists should prepare, over the next decade, to buy out bankrupt Woke universities and return the to their former glory.
Triggernometry, I absolutely love the work you both do! May I make a request for a guest? Avi Yemini. Aussie journalist who's got quite the story to tell. Jewish Aussie, and he's had his legal battles with the police in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Victoria, Australia. Much love guys. Round Two, Sargon Boogaloo when?
Yemini is a pro-Zionist Jew and ex Israeli soldier who assisted in the oppression of Palestinians and believes what Israel does to them is justified then shouts 'victim' when the Australian police arrest him for breaking the law. If you don't have principles that apply to all people, then you don't have principles; you just have an agenda.
Tom Holland is great, I love his books and appearances on BBC In our time, one of the only programs left thats not been spoiled by Wokeness B-locks. Good work!
Damn eye-opening interview, thanks! This bloke knows his stuff and so bang on...'there are no fascists, as there were no witches'. Adding all your guests on Twitter.
Pleasantly surprised at the last question :D Britain's wildlife is dying. Everytime I see the 'rolling hills of the country' I just get chills, there's nothing there...
This is one of my favourite interviews; Tom Holland is a man I would love to go and drink a beer with. I am an atheist, and I doubt Jesus himself could be persuade me otherwise, but that doesn't mean I don't see much in Christianity that I both respect and love; it has brought us some fantastic architecture, art, literature and music and follows tenets (which I would argue aren't Christian but adopted by them) which are fundamentally good. I believe the death of christianity has in may way made society in the UK worse. I think Tom's observation on Wokeism being another flare up of rebellion against the Catholic church an interesting point, but equally I reject the concept of original sin and the idea of a human being 'perfect' as nonsense and an irrelevance. How any intelligent human can consider these sensible and justifiable (and while we're on the subject, eternal Hell and the 'unforgivable curse' too), utter twaddle. I think we can be no more 'perfect' than can a Fox or Magpie, and our arrogance in thinking we are unique in the world (let alone the universe) laughable and delusional in the extreme. We are just another animal on the planet, whose evolutionary route has invested deeply in brain size. It's now starting to look like this could be a dead-end. Grand thoughts and gestures as we destroy the planet and wipe out all other mammals is so typical of humanity. God proved himself to be a dick very quickly when he said we were free to use all other living things. Take note - nature has a way of dealing with population explosion. ETA: Since when did Christians always think slavery was wrong? I absolutely disagree with this. The bible gives clear instruction on what you can do with your slaves (both Jews and non-jews), and even the New Testament says 'slaves obey your masters'. Modern Christians make up ridiculous expositions about 'indentured servitude' but it cuts no ice. It would be very easy for both God and Jesus to say 'dude, slavery is really bad, don't do it. It's actually worse than eating shellfish or saying God sucks, okay?'. But neither(both, all three) of them did. So I absolutely disagree with him here. I think Tom would be far better to admit Christianity was a form of social control that suited the time and place it was created, but wasn't written by some weird, jealous, hateful yet loving eternal divine being who creates you in his form and knows everything about you before you are born, but still weirdly gets angry every time you sin, even though he knew you were going to do it, and actually made it so you would.
Where did God say you're free to use all things? Certainly saying, "God s#@ks' is worse than slavery! Slavery in the OT was indentured servitude and kidnap was punishable by death! However it's good that you appreciate Holland; maybe you should read Dominion?
Early christians like Paul believed that doomsday would happen very soon and probably in their lifetime. Therefore it was not their goal to change society but individuals. Social justice for coming generations was not in their focus. They were not "progressives".
@@piushalg8175 that's true in part. Paul in the Acts period did believe that Christ's return was imminent as did the other apostles but nevertheless it was contingent on Israel's response "therefore repent and return so that...he may send Jesus the Christ appointed for you" Acts 3:19. However it's clear that in his post Acts letters Ephesians and Colossians the situation has changed. Read Ephesians 3:1-10 as a new revelation in response to the events of Acts 28:17-28
Tom’s story about the Yazidis is absolutely heart-rending. God help us. It is hard to stand in the stream of suffering, but doing so is in the substance of love.
I listened to this on the bus and I literally clapped really loudly after the amazing point Tom made between 36-39 minutes into this discussion, such a brilliant point well made, I only wish I could be as articulate (yes everyone looked at me like I was a nutter!)
This was a great discussion , thanks guys and Tom I loved the expressions on your faces when you asked the last question. I was also expecting something different and it turns out you must save the Hedgehogs. I will be buying a Tom book soon cheers
That was absolutely brilliant. How well Tom responded to the first dump truck of a question was the measure of his deep, broad knowledge. Revisionist history is a major extinction event.
What a wonderful conversation. History should never be re-written, just added to in order to increase the knowledge of mankind. Tom Holland came across with a wonderfully modest manner to provide a thoughtful, considered view. I, as a slightly old fashioned Tory, am ashamed and surprised to find myself wanting to conserve things like personal freedoms, the environment and the rights of the working classes. I thought the left were supposed to be the torch bearers of these causes.
I have never heard of him before but I like his style. He discusses like an actual academic and historian i.e not a bloody ideologue, and he uses factual and verifiable points to emphasis his stance and is level headed, in other words, he is not a progressive. I will have to check out his work.
Fascinating interview. Fully agree with Tom Holland's emphasis on the richness of our Christian heritage, and its persisting influence even today, in our secular times. The religious elements involved in today's wokeness cannot be denied. It has appropriated much of foundational Christian theology for itself. But, at the very same time, it has neglected its most important tenets, a sense of humility and forgiveness towards others. It's developed inro a parasitic form of Christianity which needs to be resisted forcefully for all our sakes.
I love hearing from historians these days because they're typically near contemporary issues but standing a few literal steps away in order to keep the longview. Good interview.
They’re all left wing by their own admission. The left is fully capable of having a conversation with the right and do so routinely. The problem is extreme voices on both sides are amplified to the point of being mainstreamed. The far-right and far-left are two sides of the same coin.
The industrial revolution afforded western culture enough comfort and time to stop and contemplate the morality of slavery. Technology and invention has played a far larger role in moral progress than it is given credit for.
You don't have to be a Christian to find it interesting. The part I find interesting is that he's saying that we are all Christians even if we think we aren't.
@James Donnelly I know, I'm sitting here in Co. Monaghan in the Irish countryside but I have to be honest with myself on the question of God. Plus it's fun to argue with my father over a bottle of whisky at Christmas 😂
@@brianfinnegan664 Of course there are christians in Japan.[Jesuit martyrs]. In Tokyo : the Jesuit St.Sophia University,St Mary's Cathedral.Were you just trying to be funny ?
An utterly brilliant interview, I think the best on this site which is saying something. (I've read Holland's book 'Dominion' and can strongly recommend it.) I can vouch for the accuracy of his comments on Augustine and Pelagius. I've annotated Augustine's 'Against Pelagius' which contained many original quotes.
"Progress" is not an analytical category. It is an empty term in itself which has to be filled with contents. And that contents has to be subjected to criticism (is is good, bad, helpful, does it achieve its goals, what kind of consequences follow etc.)
Wide ranging & really interesting. I’m right with him on hedgehogs. Having not seen any for years, we have a good number (some massive) in our neighbourhood at the moment! 👍🏻🙂
What would be cool is to have a 5-6 person roundtable of historians that would critique this new religion of wokeness. Dissect it and break it down into its’ parts of propaganda, cultish dogma, and the demands it makes on a person.
The hosts keep trying to drag him into cheap right-wing culture war nonsense but he doesn't take the bait and continues to provide informed, thoughtful answers. Bravo Tom
Don’t like the conservative views of either host much but *love* Tom Holland and love how he navigates this by not going along with their ‘anti-woke’ ideas but avoiding direct confrontation
A wonderful discussion. I agree with Tom let’s push the Government to legislate for our natural world, hedgehogs, foxes and the like. Clean up our waters and help Beavers. I am also mindful, at how easily a new idea can take root among the masses. The idea of Nazis, witches, no free speech, happens before your very eyes and you have to stand your ground and not be dragged along with the latest thing. I much prefer the Puritan’s and their way of life.
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so basically thanx to the Vatican and Christianity its taken 2500yrs for us to work out why hygiene and bathing with soap and water(over oil and scraping) helps us live longer
so we became enlightened as we extended the length of time we have to r n d ie learn
taking an awfully long time to learn god is a fiction
4000yrs of fear tactics to control the plebes
some things will never change as we refuse to learn
our tech moves forward but most minds r still stuck in mud!!!!!!!
hes a shite historian , the man christ the woman the church!!!!!???????
but sure just ignore that the early Christian cults all had different views on Christ
fyi for most Christ was not Jesus!!! and Jesus was against the treasury sry mean temple\church!!!
Christians just love laying claim to human rites
ummmm no mate defo not
murder blood cults r the opposite of human rites
baby boys have rite to their foreskin
women the rite to autonomy
humans the rite to not be murdered for thoughts or thinking
hes a moron
You have to see the story about Wes from Staffordshire who has been banned from Starbucks for a joke
Would Triggemometry be interested in the history of a woman who descended from the Bruce linage by Robert the first Stewart down to James Stewart 7th Earl of Atholl as well as 7th Earl Innermeath, who was banished to England for refusing to enter marriage by incest. That linage was the maternal descent her paternal descent was by the Israelite High Priest linage of Judah down to the Maccabees. That woman has an important message that would end world tyranny.
Listening to Tom Holland last year was a part of our Awakening again to our Christian heritage as the roots of Western Civilization and the waters we swim in. In deepest gratitude to Tom Holland. (And to you both and Triggernometry).
I feel the same. Holland has been part of my Christian awakening. Between Holland and Peterson I am closer now to my true inner religion than ever in my life.
As I grew up in the 1970s I found Carl Jung's ideas liberated me from materialism.
I thoroughly enjoy reading the scriptures as a consequence of Dr Jung's ideas.
Don Cupitt's attempt to get people to view the effect of modernism on the human creature in his book and TV series The Sea of Faith in the 1980s was a similar attempt to those of Peterson and Johnathan Pageau, but it failed to gain traction with the public's imagination.
I spent several years in the Middle East where I learned that Islam is a distinctively different to Christianity. It appears dead and authoritarian to me.
Disappointed Tom Holland thinks destroying statues can be approved of in the same interview he discusses ISIS.
He seems dismissive of the lessons that statues bear witness to, and agrees with Critical Race Theory that evidence of past values being swept away is just as important as acknowledging and tolerating ugly ideas - which is the foundation of the liberal idea.
Have you seen Tom Holland's interview with the evangelist Glen Scrivener? Well worth a listen, as was his recent interview with Douglas Murray.
@@AndyJarman Thanks for flagging up Don Cupitt's series. I have just found it on youtube and will give it my attention. Not having a tv for the vast majority of my life, child and adult, has protected me from a lot of drivel, but one has also missed some of the gems. Thank Goodness for youtube (!)
I too gained vast insight from my reading of Jung, but I wasn't quite up to reading the whole canon. There is a lot to wade through!
I thought it odd that Holland approved of pulling down the Coulston statue. Not cool!
Still, some good things are happening, in that there are two new political parties afoot - Heritage Party and Laurence Fox's new idea.
There is hope yet!
Best wishes.
The Left keep repeating their oldest errors th-cam.com/video/0RALUFice3c/w-d-xo.html
Gregory of Nyssa declared slavery contrary to Christian teaching in the 4th Century.
The great Chesterton said it all and more neatly many years ago:
The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful.
I would have appreciated it more had Holland stressed more the madness of modern virtues.
"The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful."
Awesome quote!
Yup. Evolutionary biology doesn't give a #$^% whether you agree with it not; no more than gravity. You either understand it, or are at its whim.
Jim Luebke pity helps no one..it keeps them in a victim mode...ie powerless and helpless. People can only be empowered when they find a way not to believe their disempowering thoughts ...one such way is Byron Katie’s ‘ the work’
@@sheilakirwan9462 I think there's a valid point to be made against "being pitiless", that doesn't involve dependency. Taking some care to slow down in school zones just in case a kid runs into the street, isn't the same as teaching a kid it's OK to run into the street.
Jim Luebke agree - really felt like I learnt something from this :)
I was hooked in the first 3 minutes. What an excellent, excellent conversation. Tom Holland and Triggernometry are class acts.
Brilliant interview. Fascinating. These historians could really help society understand itself and develop in the right way if more people would just listen to them,
No! They wanna be angry and break stuff because reasons. Arugggggghhhhh!
His take is a rarity. It's progressive historians rebelling against tradition who have led us to where we are.
Not "they" but the few realists and honest historians.
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
To know the future one must study history.
It started as an interview, it ended up turning into a masterclass on theology.
If you like Tom Holland and theology, I'd recommend the conversation he had with NT Wright a few years ago. Amazing conversation
@@manuelmontiel8085 May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
We have been badly misled about Christianity,
or have we misled ourselves?
Tom is articulating things which I have been mulling over for a long time, however, he has thought it through far more clearly and he contextualises current social attitudes brilliantly because of his understanding of history.
What a wonderful interview with an extraordinary, thoughtful and decent man. My only regret is that such people are so rare, still less influential, in the modern world.
Absolutely love Tom Holland. Best hour yet.
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
Tom Holland is fantastic. He separates himself as objectively from the brutalities of history as he does today's. It gives me the sense that his eye sees a greater truth.
An interesting and informative interview. Tom Holland shows his historical and intellectual class and refuses to be drawn into anti-woke tropes. In fact he, despite the leading questions, skilfully schools the interviewers in the benefits of progressive thinking without as much as a peep in response. I for one enjoyed this and learned a lot.
Zero conspiracy and propaganda. All truths and 100% history and philosophy. Gotta love Tom Holland the historian. Thanks Triggernometry.
This was without doubt the most interesting and educational episode of Triggernometry I have seen! Thank you to Konstantin and Francis for the platform, and thank you to Tom for doing the interview.
Loved listening to Tom Holland. He makes such thoughtful and though invoking points. The hosts seemed to be sadly blinkered however. They seemed incredibly egar to make it entirely about scoring political points, asking subtbly emotive questions rather objective. Not really listening to what he was saying and exploring the depth of what he was offering.
I really love Tom, I could listen to him for hours!
AHHH OMG You guys got Tom Holland! God I hope this is a trend and he ends up on a bunch of other popular podcasts too.
Really interesting perspective from Tom. Love his books and found this historical contextualisation of the current politics somehow reassuring. Happy to be a subscriber supporting these long-form interviews and guests. Keep up the good work.
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
Original Sin: the most democratic of doctrines. Man, do we all need a sense of our fallibility, now more than ever. Especially me.
That's not Spiderman!
I was going to write the same thing, lol. 😂
it is, they're just using a more recent photograph
Victoria Ward lol
@@bigpete4227 :D
No it's hedgehogman
Brilliant! I've enjoyed it very much, especially as someone who loves ancient world and as a Catholic.
This interview is the highlight of my TH-cam experience this year. Tom Holland is next level hero
I think the main reason why wokeness is not progress is because they firmly believe that the antidote to discrimination is more discrimination, which just locks us into an eternal cycle of grievance mongering and using victimhood as an excuse to victimize others. Their ideology is also collectivist, and collectivism is extremely regressive.
"Progress" was pwned by US Democrats. So I think we can say that "progress" is woke, rather than woke is progressive. It's such a compromised word; an entire catalogue of, literally, reactionary ideas were branded progressive by the Dems. Instead, realists should talk of advancement, or improvement.
We SHOULD discriminate in favour of the good and against the bad. We should discriminate against SCUM. Everything else is suicide. 😮
@Aetri. The woke people are unrealistic. Thinking for oneself isn’t part of their narrative.They are happy for others to think for them.
It lacks compassion. While moral grandstanding and saying they represent the victims. It creats a discourse where people aren't listening to each other. Where people who could be allies, can't get it right and get attacked for everything. It's an unhealthy way to approach love
None of you have a clue what woke means
Based on the way you describe it wrong
Absolutely brilliant! I could listen to Tom all day. Great interview 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Great guest. Great interview. Great talk. This is what makes western civilization great. Talking freely. Exchanging ideas. Learning new things.
I totally agree! Even though this time I'm finding myself disagreeing with a lot of what the guest has to say. Still good to hear the different viewpoints!
I don't know what you guys did but this was at last a really quality interview. This level is what brought me to watching you in the first place. I hope you keep up the good work.
Fascinating stuff, providing several examples of why history should never ignored or erased from the public consciousness.
And yet he has no problem with removing statues of people he disagrees with - Coulston's in Bristol.
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
Never knew Tom Holland was anti-woke!! Makes me want to read even more of his works.
Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind is well your time. He has a very straight forward writing syle.
Republic and Persian Fire are also excellent.
I don’t think he’s ‘anti-woke’ as such, at least he doesn’t define himself that way. He’s just aware of the historical context more than most. I recommend his books if you like history. He’s one of the best writers out there.
His book are brilliant
Seemed pretty woke to me
Historians are the best people. Learning the past broadens your mind
What a bloody brilliant episode! This guy is well worth listening to and probably worth reading. So much of what he explained makes sense.
Tom Holland great as always,this man even when he stutters is more eloquent than 90% of us.
Tom Holland is a great historian. Christianity is still a powerful force, for all of us in the west
An extremely important discussion to be having at this time concerning the West’s religious DNA and how it explains the moral crisis our societies are going through. It’s great how you guys really get into the nitty gritty of these topics and do justice to them in your interviews, please keep them coming.
I've read everything by Tom Holland. Me and my best friend have been fans for the better part of a decade. I'm over the moon and not surprised that he's anti woke. Any historian worth their salt couldn't help but rebuke this filth.
My best friend and i ........
I beg your pardon good sir, excellent input. I'm aghast.
Tom Holland. Wow. Thank you. The most beautiful man I've seen for a very long time.
Would love to see Tom Holland in conversation with Jordan Peterson.
Two intellectuals, both on the road to becoming Catholic and neither knows it yet.
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
@@Gpacharlie 🤣🤣🤣 no way would Tom Holland become a Catholic he's not an idiot.
Peterson is so ignorant of actual history that Holland would be bored. You need to actually read and discuss ideas to have any of your own.
@@johnlee5423Tom Holland is not an idiot but idiocity is close to you than you think..
I'm heterosexual but I have a MASSIVE brain crush on this man! :-D So structured, articulate and crystal clear.
And, as it happens, I totally agree with his views and analysis. In fact, I've been saying what he's saying for quite some time now, only that I lack the theological/historical detailled knowledge and can't express myself as eloquently.
Thanks guys, this was def one of the most enjoyable episodes so far! (And a pink shirt styled so well, you can all be inspired for the rest of the holiday after the red sock incident.)
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
Woke already has complete control of the universities. So we are pretty far down that road.
As someone with multiple university degrees studying recently at university again, our universities are heavily hijacked.
It’s NOT arts, it’s everywhere. I’ll say it again!
It’s NOT arts.
Free speech? Dead. Critical thinking? Dead!
The MOST important attribute is identity politics. I don’t think there’s a lecture where identity politics isn’t slipped in. Then there’s overt aggression in lectures and seminars (mostly seminars due to lack of camera recordings).
The bullying is intense ... by staff!
Evergreen College is a great example.
@@wb5036 get a hidden camera and post it all
It's taking over the corporate world now.
@@lariatjb Evergreen College enrollment went into free-fall after the Weinstein incident.
You can learn the skills for most gainful employment online, now.
Woke universities can be safely abandoned, and nothing of value will be lost. Traditionalists should prepare, over the next decade, to buy out bankrupt Woke universities and return the to their former glory.
Triggernometry, I absolutely love the work you both do! May I make a request for a guest? Avi Yemini. Aussie journalist who's got quite the story to tell. Jewish Aussie, and he's had his legal battles with the police in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Victoria, Australia.
Much love guys. Round Two, Sargon Boogaloo when?
Isn’t Avi the guy who filmed his interview with Jim Jerffery’s on his phone and exposed the guy as a total piece of shit? He’s a hero.
@@Papa1Smurf1 YES! THAT GUY!
1991shadowheart then, made lad, I couldn’t agree with you more. Get Avi on.
Avi Yemeni is a fool and a public nuisance.
Yemini is a pro-Zionist Jew and ex Israeli soldier who assisted in the oppression of Palestinians and believes what Israel does to them is justified then shouts 'victim' when the Australian police arrest him for breaking the law. If you don't have principles that apply to all people, then you don't have principles; you just have an agenda.
Great interview. This guy really has a clearer inside into what is going on now, and what *has* been going on for the last couple of thousand years.
A perceptive and wise analysis. We never hear discussions like this on mainstream media,
This is one of the best episodes you guys have done. Thanks very much.
Brilliant guest; great truths in his views of Western history!
Exellent insightful parallels across the ages more historians please
Tom Holland is great, I love his books and appearances on BBC In our time, one of the only programs left thats not been spoiled by Wokeness B-locks. Good work!
Tom Holland is our national treasure! So much to learn from his historical outlook and the present analogy! Had to subscribe; keep up the great work!👍
What a fantastic interview. I was glued.
Absolutely brilliant interview guys. And couldn't agree with Tom more, we don't talk about the specifics of conservation nearly enough!
Damn eye-opening interview, thanks! This bloke knows his stuff and so bang on...'there are no fascists, as there were no witches'. Adding all your guests on Twitter.
Pleasantly surprised at the last question :D Britain's wildlife is dying. Everytime I see the 'rolling hills of the country' I just get chills, there's nothing there...
Look harder.
This was a fantastic discussion!
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
Absolute banger guys. Loved this. I’m getting such a broad education through TRIGGERnometry.
I just finished reading 3 books by Tom Holland. Shocked to see him on the show.
Really enjoyed. Need to watch again. I may need to rebalance my views.
This is one of my favourite interviews; Tom Holland is a man I would love to go and drink a beer with. I am an atheist, and I doubt Jesus himself could be persuade me otherwise, but that doesn't mean I don't see much in Christianity that I both respect and love; it has brought us some fantastic architecture, art, literature and music and follows tenets (which I would argue aren't Christian but adopted by them) which are fundamentally good. I believe the death of christianity has in may way made society in the UK worse. I think Tom's observation on Wokeism being another flare up of rebellion against the Catholic church an interesting point, but equally I reject the concept of original sin and the idea of a human being 'perfect' as nonsense and an irrelevance. How any intelligent human can consider these sensible and justifiable (and while we're on the subject, eternal Hell and the 'unforgivable curse' too), utter twaddle. I think we can be no more 'perfect' than can a Fox or Magpie, and our arrogance in thinking we are unique in the world (let alone the universe) laughable and delusional in the extreme. We are just another animal on the planet, whose evolutionary route has invested deeply in brain size. It's now starting to look like this could be a dead-end. Grand thoughts and gestures as we destroy the planet and wipe out all other mammals is so typical of humanity. God proved himself to be a dick very quickly when he said we were free to use all other living things. Take note - nature has a way of dealing with population explosion.
ETA: Since when did Christians always think slavery was wrong? I absolutely disagree with this. The bible gives clear instruction on what you can do with your slaves (both Jews and non-jews), and even the New Testament says 'slaves obey your masters'. Modern Christians make up ridiculous expositions about 'indentured servitude' but it cuts no ice. It would be very easy for both God and Jesus to say 'dude, slavery is really bad, don't do it. It's actually worse than eating shellfish or saying God sucks, okay?'. But neither(both, all three) of them did. So I absolutely disagree with him here. I think Tom would be far better to admit Christianity was a form of social control that suited the time and place it was created, but wasn't written by some weird, jealous, hateful yet loving eternal divine being who creates you in his form and knows everything about you before you are born, but still weirdly gets angry every time you sin, even though he knew you were going to do it, and actually made it so you would.
Yes, well put.. Agree with you wholeheartedly.
Great comment
Where did God say you're free to use all things? Certainly saying, "God s#@ks' is worse than slavery! Slavery in the OT was indentured servitude and kidnap was punishable by death! However it's good that you appreciate Holland; maybe you should read Dominion?
Early christians like Paul believed that doomsday would happen very soon and probably in their lifetime. Therefore it was not their goal to change society but individuals. Social justice for coming generations was not in their focus. They were not "progressives".
@@piushalg8175 that's true in part. Paul in the Acts period did believe that Christ's return was imminent as did the other apostles but nevertheless it was contingent on Israel's response "therefore repent and return so that...he may send Jesus the Christ appointed for you" Acts 3:19. However it's clear that in his post Acts letters Ephesians and Colossians the situation has changed. Read Ephesians 3:1-10 as a new revelation in response to the events of Acts 28:17-28
Tom’s story about the Yazidis is absolutely heart-rending. God help us. It is hard to stand in the stream of suffering, but doing so is in the substance of love.
What a kind and erudite man. I’m entirely with him on the dearth of hedgehogs.
He seems pretty woke in situations regarding the mistreatment of hedgehogs.
Very interesting and like his manner...not angry or emotional...very calm and easy to listen to ...thumbs up
The most fascinating and helpful podcast I’ve heard in ages. Thanks, guys!
I listened to this on the bus and I literally clapped really loudly after the amazing point Tom made between 36-39 minutes into this discussion, such a brilliant point well made, I only wish I could be as articulate (yes everyone looked at me like I was a nutter!)
This was a great discussion , thanks guys and Tom
I loved the expressions on your faces when you asked the last question. I was also expecting something different and it turns out you must save the Hedgehogs. I will be buying a Tom book soon cheers
That was absolutely brilliant. How well Tom responded to the first dump truck of a question was the measure of his deep, broad knowledge. Revisionist history is a major extinction event.
One of the best history writers around today. In the Shadow of the Sword is superb, a really neglected aspect of history, but very relevant to today.
Yes it is
Well that was just fantastic. So many light bulbs going on in my head. I hardly know where to start - but I will start by ordering the book.
Great, I really enjoy Tom Hollands work. Super guest.
What a wonderful conversation. History should never be re-written, just added to in order to increase the knowledge of mankind. Tom Holland came across with a wonderfully modest manner to provide a thoughtful, considered view.
I, as a slightly old fashioned Tory, am ashamed and surprised to find myself wanting to conserve things like personal freedoms, the environment and the rights of the working classes. I thought the left were supposed to be the torch bearers of these causes.
I have never heard of him before but I like his style. He discusses like an actual academic and historian i.e not a bloody ideologue, and he uses factual and verifiable points to emphasis his stance and is level headed, in other words, he is not a progressive. I will have to check out his work.
If I close my eyes I can see Graham garden and Graham Hancock.
Did they all go to the same school?
Amazing guest guys and his 'last question' answer was spot on.
Fascinating interview. Fully agree with Tom Holland's emphasis on the richness of our Christian heritage, and its persisting influence even today, in our secular times. The religious elements involved in today's wokeness cannot be denied. It has appropriated much of foundational Christian theology for itself. But, at the very same time, it has neglected its most important tenets, a sense of humility and forgiveness towards others. It's developed inro a parasitic form of Christianity which needs to be resisted forcefully for all our sakes.
Yes, as he said, that springs from the concept of 'original' sin. We are all flawed. Cytuno'n llwyr
It's like Star Trek's 'the borg'. Ignorant and dismissive of that which enables it to succeed. Liberalism's tolerance for dissent.
The Left keep repeating their oldest errors th-cam.com/video/0RALUFice3c/w-d-xo.html
Loved his books and respect him even more now. What a fantastic interview.
"Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good..." - Portland
This comment killed me.
The Left keep repeating their oldest errors th-cam.com/video/0RALUFice3c/w-d-xo.html
Great interview, guys. Love you, LOVE Tom Holland. :-)
Fantastic and interesting interview, and love his last point about hedgehogs
May be interested in this video: th-cam.com/video/-AbYIj5TCuw/w-d-xo.html
Absolutely riveting interview. Thank you so much 🙏🏻
One of the best Triggernometry episodes. What an interesting character.
Love the Hedgehog Man, love his podcast The Rest Is History
I love hearing from historians these days because they're typically near contemporary issues but standing a few literal steps away in order to keep the longview. Good interview.
What a guy, I love the final point!
notice that the right has a CONVERSATION, they don't yell, burn and accuse.
Well said - It’s called intelligence and knowledge, which the WOKE don’t have they are basically ignorant.
Conversations are tools of white supremacy. Intelligence is fascist.
@@smoothinvestigator Ones where they don't accuse the president of being a racist/homophobic bigot? Which ones?
I don't know if I'd call Holland right wing
They’re all left wing by their own admission. The left is fully capable of having a conversation with the right and do so routinely. The problem is extreme voices on both sides are amplified to the point of being mainstreamed. The far-right and far-left are two sides of the same coin.
What a fascinating and thought-provoking conversation, gentlemen!
Ta very muchly. ☝️😎
The industrial revolution afforded western culture enough comfort and time to stop and contemplate the morality of slavery. Technology and invention has played a far larger role in moral progress than it is given credit for.
Fascinating perspective! I love the true study of history. Thanks for this interview
Yet another wonderful guest (and a great thinker)👍
I kinda like his apology (of sorts) for progressivism ;)
Thank you Triggers!
Tom Holland is awesome. It turned into a fascinating lecture. Not sure he even need to ask him questions!
Veeeeeery interesting.
I love his books. They are facinating.
Tom Holland never fails to entertain and educate. Thanks guys.
I'm not a Christian but found this very interesting
I don't think you have to be christian to recognise it's part in history.
You don't have to be a Christian to find it interesting. The part I find interesting is that he's saying that we are all Christians even if we think we aren't.
@@Captain_MonsterFart how is that? I was brought up in Japan with no Christians or Christian traditions.
@James Donnelly I know, I'm sitting here in Co. Monaghan in the Irish countryside but I have to be honest with myself on the question of God. Plus it's fun to argue with my father over a bottle of whisky at Christmas 😂
@@brianfinnegan664 Of course there are christians in Japan.[Jesuit martyrs]. In Tokyo : the Jesuit St.Sophia University,St Mary's Cathedral.Were you just trying to be funny ?
An utterly brilliant interview, I think the best on this site which is saying something. (I've read Holland's book 'Dominion' and can strongly recommend it.) I can vouch for the accuracy of his comments on Augustine and Pelagius. I've annotated Augustine's 'Against Pelagius' which contained many original quotes.
0:19:00 Christians being somehow blamed for not ending slavery earlier is like social workers being blamed for not eradicating child abuse by now.
why did they fucking start slavery in the first place?
That's like congratulating a nonce who stops being a nonce.
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
I've never heard of Tom Holland, but shat a brilliant man! Another EXCELLENT piece from the triggernometry chaps!!
"Progress" is not an analytical category. It is an empty term in itself which has to be filled with contents. And that contents has to be subjected to criticism (is is good, bad, helpful, does it achieve its goals, what kind of consequences follow etc.)
Fantastic you got Tom Holland! Kudos
Wide ranging & really interesting.
I’m right with him on hedgehogs. Having not seen any for years, we have a good number (some massive) in our neighbourhood at the moment! 👍🏻🙂
What would be cool is to have a 5-6 person roundtable of historians that would critique this new religion of wokeness. Dissect it and break it down into its’ parts of propaganda, cultish dogma, and the demands it makes on a person.
The hosts keep trying to drag him into cheap right-wing culture war nonsense but he doesn't take the bait and continues to provide informed, thoughtful answers. Bravo Tom
Don’t like the conservative views of either host much but *love* Tom Holland and love how he navigates this by not going along with their ‘anti-woke’ ideas but avoiding direct confrontation
He’s changed a lot since that Spider-Man movie.
A wonderful discussion. I agree with Tom let’s push the Government to legislate for our natural world, hedgehogs, foxes and the like. Clean up our waters and help Beavers. I am also mindful, at how easily a new idea can take root among the masses. The idea of Nazis, witches, no free speech, happens before your very eyes and you have to stand your ground and not be dragged along with the latest thing. I much prefer the Puritan’s and their way of life.
Praise the Lord for common sense.