twisted crank. tossin the flywheel off. got me on this one for sure. agreed tho 10 hours wtf i wonder how far out of round the hole is ??? you had no smoke for bein stuck rings...
I think the compression test told the story. The Briggs without it's CR installed, should have been much higher than 80 pounds. The scrub cadet, with it's CR installed and working, was correct at about 60 pounds.
You’re awesome! I love seeing you stumped because I know you’re not going to stop until you find out what the issues are. I’m going to learn… You care about us grass 🐀’s in Georgia.
had a bad coil spin a fly wheel and keep sheering keys before, you'd think they'd either spark or not spark but sometimes when they go bad they go off-time a bit
Lawn mower shops, its fun to try to run it as a flat rate shop, he is spending all this time on one project, i have been here several times chasing strange no start issues, or machine function issues, sometimes not enough hours in the day
I cant believe that B&S would make a Clone of the qualiity Honda motor, They obviously couldn't get that right ever. So bad piston rings, they paid that quickly, PR is working hard for the mistake of the Bean Counter's!
I was blown away when he said he’s never done a cylinder leak down test before. If I get an engine I can’t diagnose quickly with the usual test, I do a cylinder leak down test. It only takes a few minutes, literally, and you know if one or both valves are leaking, if it’s losing compression past the rings, if it’s a blown head gasket, etc. it would’ve saved him a lot of time. That leak down tester he used from Harbor Freight is garbage. They sell one now made by Maddox that works great. Another thing I noticed. When you do a cylinder leak down test, you have everything connected to the cylinder from the start. You do not pressurize the tester and then connect it to the cylinder hose. Lol. You use the leak down tester to find exact top dead center, once there, you do have to clamp the engine into place. If it’s at exact top dead center it will stay there even after you put pressure into the cylinder.
Not many channels will do what Taryl does. Most channels wouldn't upload themselves struggling but thats part of yhe process and an invaluable step in diagnosis. This channel is a treasure ❤
Taryl's a Super Man! I can't believe how many times he pulled that recoil and never was out of breath or even slowed down! He might be on the thin side, but I'm guessing he's wiry as heck and all muscle! I might have been like that in my 30's and 40's and maybe even into my early 50's before I ruptured a disc, but now at 76 that much pulling would have pretty much have finished me for any kind of strenuous work for the day. ;-)
Yeah I noticed that too pulling like that would throw you back out if you weren't warmed up at my age I'm 62... And I think he did it to show that Briggs & Stratton it's just another one of these companies that's really chins and out and putting plastic f****** camshaft ....
Great video Taryl. Just about everything you need to know in order to troubleshoot and repair a small engine. These companies really need to STOP outsourcing their builds to China. It's real Grade 'A' Crapola!
Thanks guys! I had a great time helping solve crimes. See you next time. PS the Dunkman's donuts were great but I'm still waiting for that steak dinner.
This year I refurbished a 1948 Whizzer-you know what they are-I couldn't get the engine to run right-good spark, fuel, etc. Finally I pulled the cylinder off, and found that the rings were completely worn out-put in new rings, and it runs like a champ-it had me stumped as well-thanks, Taryl and crew!
It's not like China isn't capable of producing high quality steel. They are very capable. Briggs isn't REQUIRING them to do it. They certainly could but they don't care.
I'm at 32:00. I think you have low compression. With the compression release on it, you will get 60 PSI, but without it I would expect higher compression, more than 100. Wouldn't you think? I bet if you took the compression relief off the predator and checked it like you did the Briggs it would be much higher. Just my guess at this point. Finished video. Stuck rings probably a quality control problem, and obviously not something you would expect on a new engine! I bet the machining on the ring grooves was out of spec, too tight. To clarify what I said above, the compression release will function only at low RPM (ie: while starting) and keep the compression only at 60 PSI, but as soon as it fires and the RPM climbs the compression release should stop functioning and the compression should quickly increase to max compression which I would expect more like 100+ PSI, but that may vary with the engine. I'd be really interested if you did a follow up and checked the compression on that predator without the compression release. Interesting video, thanks for posting.
You're getting better all the time. I can't believe how far your production value has come and I love that you have a way for your business to not only survive, but thrive. God bless you brother.
You know Daryl, I was an green aircraft mechanic many, many, years ago. I used a differential air compression tester, not knowing how it worked, but only once did I find a cylinder not hold pressure, because it had a hole in the piston. I keep learning more and more as I watch these video’s. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for sharing that problem, & the paths you took trying to figure out the real problem. That is for sure one of those hard learned most remembered lessons! Briggs quality tanked years ago, & they are barely running on reputation at this point. How do they pay your time on something like this?
Just like , stihl , husksvarna , echo and toro , ford , Chevy , GE , the list goes all the way down the line , the leaders in charge ned to fix these problems or be held accountable
I totally agree , enjoyed it while eating breakfast. Taryl can figure it out . My shoulder cringed when I watch how many times you had to pull that rope “ it’s not starting” said in * high pitched voice . (Hubby always cracks up when Taryl talks to himself in this way) we love your show Taryl LOL Had to pause it so I wouldn’t choke while laughing at the lawn mower detectives skit too !
I'm still stumped why the thing had 80 lbs. compression with stuck rings. Great video Taryl. Thanks! I'd have thought that officer wasn't a rookie with how he handled that arrest. Great job Officer Faryl!
Because the leak was not a constant and sometimes the rings even sealed which is why it would run occasionally. This is a guess until someone has a better answer. Excellent work !!!
The way the compression tester works is that it goes up to the maximum compression achieved but doesn’t go down again until you push the release pressure button. The leak down tester compares pressure in the cylinder on a steady state basis versus the pressure being introduced using an air line. With perfect a no leak down cylinder if Taryl introduced air at 60 lbs(it just bleeds air in) the cylinder would show 60 lbs also. However there is always some leak down past the rings in any engine. The problem is that there was WAY too much.
@@jasoncook5307 Compression rings are supposed to seal the combustion chamber from the crankcase. Oil control rings regulate how much oil is on the cylinder walls. I highly doubt any engine manual would say oil control rings create compression.
Stuck rings is the last thing I would have thought of. I really like using a leak down tester. It doesn't take that much more effort to use over a compression tester and it provides a lot more information. The leak down tester will tell you about leaking intake or exhaust valves, holed pistons and blown head gaskets all in one test.
Agreed. But it sucks that Taryl had to resort to a leak-down test on a practically new engine. So much junk on the market from previously solid name brands. This video's got me thinking I should rebuild an old engine in my scrap pile. All of the parts are such higher quality.
Wow..thnks for takng the time to figure this 1 out. As a homeowner who doesn't have much time to figure these our it nice to see you take the time to trbleshoot rather than charge, replace, or junk the whole show. I knw one guy who wantd a tune up for his toro, it cost him as much as a new rather than just doin most himself
That’s really common. All these minibikes you see at Walmart or tractor supply have plastic cams in them. It doesn’t cause a quality problem. Had a few bikes with Chinese engines with the same plastic cam for over 10 years and still run fine. They’re not designed to overspin past 4,500 rpm’s.
Briggs & Stratton started using plastic cams about 30 years ago, actually probably a little longer than that on the 3.5 Classic L heads. They aren't normally a problem
It's usually a plastic gear that fails before the cam lobes, and that failure is usually from some other original cause. A typical scenerio for B&S engines is fuel from a failing carburetor flows into the crankcase, diluting the oil and raising the level. Somewhat later the engine breaks a timing gear, perhaps after running great for its last few seconds. Did it fail from overspeed, the long term fuel soak weakening the plastic gear, or the high oil level putting too much load on the valve system?
A buddy of mine was telling me the other day that BMW has or is working on this thing were instead of having a throttle cable or even throttle by wire they are going further now,they will be moving the camshaft back and forth (inside the engine!!!) to lower the idle,lol,lets forgo the 10 dollar throttle cable and do something ridiculous and complex,cars are getting so insane and expensive pretty soon all you'll be seeing are old cars on the road. I realize this video is about mowers but everyone is being affected by these crazy times we are living in,Ive heard of the industrial revolution but this is ridiculous,lol
@@dntlss BMW has had throttle-by-wire for a quarter century. The 1998-era M52tu engine was a transition. It had a throttle cable going to the throttle body, where it moved a throttle position sensor. The engine computer read that position, and moved a motorized throttle plate that was immediately adjacent. That allowed using the new throttle-by-wire engine into vehicles designed around a throttle cable. (There was actually a mechanical throttle shaft between the two. But it was a backup in case of a failure, using an incomplete coupling. The computer was normally the only source of throttle plate movement, but the mechanical linkage could partially open the throttle plate if the motor failed.) The next generation M54 engine used a very similar intake manifold and throttle body, but with the throttle position sensor half removed. That engine could only be used with an electronic throttle pedal. The recent engines control the intake charge entirely by controlling the intake valve opening, part of the variable valve timing. Initially that was paired with a traditional throttle body that was largely redundant, but later the throttle body was removed.
Great job sticking with it thank you for all your sharing of knowledge. Really didn’t think you’d get 80lbs with stuck rings I guess the leak down test was worth it. Ed
Fascinating video Taryl Fixes all! This is a total 'back to formula' video! You were very calm! *high pitched voice. 'Lawn mower detectives!'.. Henceforth, I hereby nominate, this day, November 12 National Grass Rats day! Happy 4 you!
That certainly helped me add to my things to look at, had a Briggs, their Vanguard line, on a Cyclone rake come into the shop. Needed a carb and coil initially to just try and get it running. Mouse chewed coil wire jacket and I figured coil was shorting out through the hole in the jacket to the metal covers or head. Carb was gummed up and pitted. Get that replaced and still wouldn’t start. Found this engine to have no compression. Customer opted to not fix or repower it. Appreciate these videos as they help me better myself and skills as some of these things are not covered in trainings offered by the manufacturers.
I would not have thought of stuck rings. My son would have lol but Taryl you are still the go to guy. Thanks for the video and all the great info. There's your dinner wooooooo
I had this same issue on an old 18hp opposed twin for the whole season last year. Every time I would go to start it, I'd have to fight it again. Starter fluid and jump starting, etc.etc.. and nothing would ever work until randomly-- it would just start for no apparent reason; drove me nuts because I'm usually good at fixing this stuff. But it ran strong I could mow with it non-stop.. but after I parked it, I would have to fight it all over again the next time. Well finally one day when I couldn't start it: it was bad enough that it was blowing pressure out of the oil fill cap.. literally spraying oil out of the cap when I took it off. So I knew that it had stuck rings after that and had really bad blowby.. Once I took it all apart, I realized that it had a good amount of grass secretly hiding under the covers when I had already cleaned it at the start of the season-- so it must have been over heating too. It's on the healing bench at the moment; I'll get to it eventually
Howdy Cuz! I just got back home and had a chance to watch the whole video. Excellent job for not giving up, one of your best vids yet. I had a similar thing happen several years ago and once I used a cylinder leak down tester, I found the problem. Those things are great at telling where the air is leaking - if you hear air coming out of the carbitrator it's the intake valve, mufkin it's the exhaust valve, oil fill hole it's the rings and if the head gasket is leaking externally you can spray soapy water around the gasket area and look for bubbles. In any case you now have something to help find the problem. I sure had fun visiting with you guys and being part of Lawn Mower Detectives. You guys are the best!!!
I enjoyed this episode. You covered alot of diagnostic scenarios, good stuff for us amateurs. Thanks Taryl and I also enjoyed seeing my favorite character Jackyl, he is the funniest man in show business
The compression was low, he removed the compression release but compared it against a motor that had the compression release installed. Without a compression release it should have been over 100 psi easy and he should have felt difficulty in pulling the engine over. The whole, "pulling this engine over is easy, I don't know why they would even need a compression release" should have made him suspect compression issues.
I can see frozen rings after 10 hrs of run time. I've had that problem in the past with valves. With these modern cheap engines, their design is sensitive to burning stale gas. So the customer runs for a few hrs one year, puts up for the winter, comes out in the spring and starts up, runs with stale gas and the varnish, while the engine is running and hot coats the valve stems (in my case) which freeze up after the engine cools back down and the engine wont start the next time (or any time after that until you take it apart and clean the valve stems up). In your case, I suspect the varnish, for whatever reason, migrated to the cylinder walls and got picked up by the rings which froze when the engine cooled back down. It would have been interesting to see if you could free up the stuck rings in your video - my guess is that you could have. Always run the engine out of gas - let it just sit there and idle if that's what it takes - a dry fuel tank over the winter time and your rig will start and run reliably the next year.
I’ve been saying the same about Briggs going down hill, I know the Chinese Powermore engines are mainly on MTD stuff but I’ve always liked the ones on the snow blowers. The ones on the mowers seem fine too, I think They’re made by Zongshen and I believe they’re one of the better Chinese manufacturers probably the same ones that make Predator motors. Parts can be pricey though
@@evanknight3629 no experience with the little pit bike engines but I've got a Chinese dual sport(zongshen 230cc Honda ch clone engine) and it's at least survived 20,000 miles so far and still running well from what I can tell, so regardless they seem to be worth the money 1600 for a new motorcycle I've got my moneys worth even if it blows up tomorrow
Thank you for sharing this video. I have a TORO Time cutter with the 2P77F v Twin motor. this is an older zero turn that has just quit o me. In my "Detective" diagnosing, I ended up doing a compression test. One cylinder has 150pi, the other has 60psi, obviously, not right. I thought it was a valve, so I lapped the one with low compression. If I crank the engine for about 3 min, it will eventually start, some times. Just like yours. I have adjusted the valves, still not running. So I was thinking it was the Compression Relief, or the CAM, but that does not make sense since the valves were functioning. The one cylinder also is dry and is not getting gas on start up. IF I get it running, it runs like it is on 1.5 cylinders, Then I thaought it must be the rings, bt since it has compression and the compression does not drop, I rued it out. But now that you did a leak down test, I bet that if I did the test on mine, I would have the same results as your. So, off I go to pull the motor and check the rings on the one cylinder.
Good fix Taryl. I would still change the fuel cap because when it did run it would die after a few minutes. Also I had a briggs riding lawn mower that had a bad compression release, Would start and locked up the starter. Briggs said the cam was back ordered for about six months. I bought an aftermarket cam and held my breath that it would not fail. So far it is still good. Thanks for a great video.
Holy buckets !!!Good video . I can't tell you how many times I've been stumped like that🤯. had quite a few CT70s do that same thing rings sticking then im pounding my head against the wall (not to Alice in chains 😆) before i Figure out whats going on
I love that if something stumps you you don't give up. You always figure out what it is. And that's what I like to do makes you feel good when you figure it out. Good job Taryl👍👍👍👍
The older I get, the more I appreciate value, especially when I consider how expensive power equipment is these days. So what has happened to a famous name like Briggs and Stratton is pretty sad. Also, I'm just a learn by doing homeowner --not a professional mechanic -- but my common sense tells me plastic cam lobes in a high pressure part of an engine isnt a good idea.
Tecumseh used plastic camshafts on their OHV engines. As long as you don't run them low on oil or use high strength valve springs they last just fine. I've sprayed starting fluid in many junkyard tecumsehs and had them start up first pull.
An old car tech showed me a spark plug lower he welded on to a air nipple. I did the same, always works! Just listen and see where the air is leaking out when you pressurize the cylinder. You don't need the vise grips on a car engine, but you will on a mower/small engine. That guy showed me that in 1982.
I have a Poulan Pro PR621 snow blower, it came with an STB 208cc engine. I bought it around 2009, and a couple years ago the engine stopped starting, just about like this one. Now that was after quite a few years. The blower was still in pretty good condition and I had just replaced the paddles and some other stuff. So I bought a Predator 212 for $99 (before the massive inflation). I retrofitted the side cover, carb, muffler, pull, etc. from the STB so I could keep the blowers cover and controls and all that, and for example the top oil dipstick. After looking at the engines, they are both the Honda clones just like these. I could tell they probably were manufactuered in the same plants (maybe not), even the way the laser etching of the serial was very similar but obviously different between 10 years. I didn't check if the cams were identical, BUT the side cover fit without any modification so at least the bearing IDs were the same. Was a fun little project.
Thanks Mr. T for the diagnosis. Is there a fluid that can be added to the carb that might break up the " sticky issue " either while cold or RUNNING and warmed up ? I remember pouring STP engine flush spray years ago to free sticky valves and clean out piston carbon.
I know because you can get them at harbor freight everybody used to love them because they were only $100 but now there like $160 everybody builds them 212cc engines up to 20hp for minibikes
@@seanmckay3392 Yep! Man you show is funny as monkey with a beanie! Haven't laughed so hard since 'Married with Children'! Kept it up! Better than most shows on Network TTTTVVVV!😜😄
I bought a Toro AWD push mower and the motor locked up and Toro would not replace the motor. Toro said if I have been changing the oil and I said yes, but I called Briggs and they said to call Toro. I took it to a authorize dealer and they said the engine was locked up and they would not replace the engine because of the oil not being changed which I did. But the manual and Toro said the oil never needs changing just check to see if it had enough oil in it. So I filed a claim with the BBB and guess what they authorize the repair.
Leak down testing has saved me time and helps to quickly identify or rule out problems. I have a HF leak down tester, but a better one than Taryl used. The better ones give you a direct pressure loss reading and you can calculated % loss.. About $85 at HF. I highly recommend you get a leak down tester that allows you to calculate the % loss. Helpful video in many areas.
I kept thinking a broken valve stem valve - but you said it would run occasionally. I did notice that there was no vent on the gas cap. But didn't know if that would cause an issue. Now I wonder if that caused an increase in cylinder pressure and cooked the rings? Doubt it - no cylinder wall damage mentioned. Good work man.
I felt your frustration throughout the video. I still don't understand how you can get good compression readings and have stuck rings... I don't think I would have found that problem! It's true to life, things don't always go as expected when you're troubleshooting.-- thanks for the great work!!!
I'm 31 minutes in to this thing. This is a little frustrating. I didn't see him put the B&S cam back together with decompression in the machine when he was testing the compression. so 80 psi is very low if there is no decompression on the cam, 80 is way too low to run. Should have closer to 150 psi. I bet the top end is toast from lack of lubrication. Just a prediction. UPDATE: just finished it. So it was the top end, stuck rings. I was close. I love he brought out the leak down tester. That is the 4th or 5th item we use when something like this happens at the shop. We usually start with carb (shot of starter fluid), spark plug (does it spark, is it wet), exhaust (air coming out?), compression test (60-80psi for hand start engine), leak down test if all tests come back good. Glad you got it running! Very informative as always.
Its really the only way to test piston aircraft engines. Never used a compression gauge because the differential tester did it all. Holding the prop at TDC made it easy. You would of heard the air leaking from the oil fill or dipstick.
The scrub cadet had 60 pounds of compression because it still had it's compression release operating. The Briggs, with the CR removed, was actually too low, I thought.
Yes but not by much it should have had about 80-90 with not CR, but without a CR, he wasn't able to pull it at full speed either. But stuck rings might seal enough down in the hole to get somewhat decent compression, but if the stuck rings were leaking at or just past TDC, what was happening was every time the cylinder fired, and the piston began to move on the power stroke, all the pressure would blow-by. I was noticing when he had it running with no valve cover, it looked quite smoky, like it had too much blowby. It was way too much blowby for only 10 hours so I was already thinking bad rings, or scored cylinder wall at that point in the video. Look at @21:45
@@brnmcc01 He actually remarked that the Briggs was easy to pull and did not need a compression release. It was easy to pull because it had low compression, imo.
I wonder if the ringlands on the piston were machined too thin. Enough room for the rings to move initially, but even a slight bit of sludge from normal operation caused them to stick. Adequate clearance might have accommodated the little bit of sludge. That's my theory.
I am thinking the same thing. A machining problem from the factory, and the most tiny amount of 'varnish' or sludge forming in the ring land caused them to stick real quick. It's totally normal to have a little bit of varnish form on any engine, new or old, but when the factory screws up and doesn't provide correct clearance, BOOM !!! It's junk.
I'm thinking something in the fuel, some oil, additives, contaminates, old fuel, etc. sometimes additives can be very bad if the tolerances are tight and they run lean for emissions cruft.
Amazing is all I can say. B&S probably makes double on those foreign parts so that they can pay those warranty claims as quickly as they do. Like you Ive seen plenty of stuck rings especially on two strokes, but very few on 4 strokes that had oil in them. Good Job Taryl.
I don’t recall which engine it was but James Condon TH-cam generator repair channel came across a cam with compression release stuck in the compression relief position. Kind of bumped the compression release after removing the cam, the compression release went back to normal 23:49 and could not replicate the problem. That unit’s cam was all metal.
The push rods would probably interchange as long as you change the tappets too. The Briggs push rod was a little longer and the tappet was a little shorter, and the opposite for the predator by what looks to be the same amount. Unless the tappets won't fit into each other's blocks.
A 212 hemi will interchange including the crank, and cam. Non hemi have smaller cam mounts like the gx 160- 200 Honda so non hemi, and Honda interchange.
I hade a honda engine with the same problem as the Briggs went through everything like you did. Finally found the problem the rings on the piston were hanging up fixed it and it ran
Taryl, it seems like all of these manufacturers are dropping the ball. I had a nice little Hustler Dash with the junk single cylinder Power Built engine. I knew the crank was eventually going to fail. I sold it and got an older mower
I rebuilt my dads Honda GSV190 powered Honda lawnmower which I filled up with semi synthetic oil,it has done only 5 hours of work but it will start getting a workout tomorrow since it's late spring in my area here in Australia, the rain & heat has made the grass grow like crazy. That stuck ring issue is what sort of happened to the Intek engine on my grandfathers John Deere lawn tractor which my uncle gave him,he didn't change the oil & he kept on cranking & cranking the engine until he burned out the starter motor. Even the local lawnmower mechanic in town thought that a broken compression release on the camshaft was a cause of the starter motor problem until he pulled the cover off the engine. It still had compression albeit a scored cylinder & my grandfather hasn't really wanted to talk to me ever since because I unbolted the engine & he thought that I was wrong about things,I always never have a habit of stuffing things up like they did. When my uncle got remarried 2 weekends ago he didn't want to talk to me at the wedding either,I think that it was because I got a different McDonagh whose wasn't a Green one of whose Mahers whose a Gray !
Question : if it's determined that rings are stuck, is there a chance that soaking the cylinder with snake oil, ATF, or something like marvel could remedy the situation? This video was absolutely amazing and I really learned from it. I claim myself as an efficient grass rat, but so many times have been tunnel visioned in the wrong direction. Thank you for sharing the struggle!
The chances are that you’ll free them rings all right. The challenge now is to keep them from getting stuck again. So to prevent this from happening again in the future change the rings or even better piston and rings together. Don’t forget to break in the piston rings as you would do with new engine (5-6 hours run at minimum with first oil change after 1-2 hours)
At least the warning label is still available! At $20.99! I love your channel. As a former mechanic, I feel your pain. The world reset hadn't happened yet when I was still employed so I REALLY feel sorry for those still in it!
Wow.. that was a doosey of a problem Taryl. Great troubleshooting tutorial though! Thanx for taking us along for the ride to learn how to check everything! 👍
The reason one motor had 60psi and other had 80psi is because the 60psi had the compression release working. The motor that had 80psi without a compression release is too low. Should have been 100+ without a compression release. Also, you can tell where the leak is by feeling over the carb, muffler and oil check port to see where the leak is when doing the leak down test.
Oh! That explains the higher compression, which to my mind should have been lower if the rings were stuck into the grooves. I forgot he'd already removed the compression release! Thanks so much for catching that and mentioning it - saved me asking the obvious question.
I love using my leakdown- so useful. Taryl should have remembered about the comp release he took off. It looked like he had low blood sugar or was coming down with something! Or lack of sleep.
Good job, I heard about using the synthetic oil on break in. Do you think that is what caused the rings to seize to the piston.. I was wondering if they were stuck because of old gas with low octane. Just thinking that way cause the top of piston carboned up. Oh well still good video, B&S were were good motors.. oh well thanks for video....
Stuck rings could have been caused by running it too hard for the first 20 hours. We used an old broken piston ring to clean out the grooves, so they had the correct 2 thou or so clearance... It happened more often with two-stroke motors.
Another terrific vid Taryl! I've been trying get a Krohler K-141 to run without success. It used to run fine but then after a long day's work it just gave up. I've been convinced it was from lack of spark so have tried two coils one of which was a brand new genuine Krohler part. Still no joy. I had experts look at the magnets in the flywheel but still no go. But with this experience of yours perhaps my piston rings have seized in the slots ? I can see a small blue spark when I turn it over but I'm a 67-year old pencil pusher so don't have the puff to keep pulling the cord and look for spark at the same time. Maybe it was running rich - anyway I'm going to do a leak down test (it has an ACR so compression test is difficult) and see what I find out. Never woulda occurred to me without your words of wisdom. From across the pond in Jolly Old (wet) England....thanks again!
Love this guy, just a few questions please address them, been working on small engines also, a little while, lol,,, why didn't you check fuel line delivery first ? Also if rings are stuck, wouldn't compression be either very low, or very high ? 80 psi is about normal for that size piston. Seems if fuel delivery was normal, when the muffler was removed and the pull start was engaged , over and over, there would have been either fire thru the exhaust port, or at least backfire? I personally believe this engine suffered from , fuel starvation and a partially sheared flywheel key,, advanced or retarded timing?, please address these questions, I really enjoy this channel, but stuck rings, the psi was too on point to be the reason, exhaust valve was loose as he explained, so good fuel delivery would or should have delivered backfire or severe flooding, please get back, thanks
This all reminds me of recently when my ATV didn’t want to start anymore. It died suddenly while riding just slowly around the property… i took all the plastics off and stripped it down, did troubleshooting for months before giving up. The bike was a few years old by now, but only had about 400 hrs on it. It had spark, held compression, and had good fuel pressure. Bench tested the temp sensor, the crank position sensor, the map sensor, and tps. Bench tested the magneto and pdm. Did continuity tests on all wires, harnesses and clips. Replaced the fuel pump and injector and a whim. Also replaced the idle air control valve solenoid on a whim. Replaced spark plug, plug wire, and coil. I checked the woodruff key and it was beauty. I absolutely had nothing left to go on except for valves and clearances, rings, crank/piston, decompression valve, timing etc. but it seemed waaaay to soon for that and in order to dig that deep the engine would need to come out, plus if any of those were the issue thats total bs and id be contacting Polaris directly - so I brought it to an authorized dealer. Took them almost 3 weeks to find the issue after repeating everything i had done previous. Turns out the timing chain tensioner failed at some point which advanced the timing by a few teeth retarding the engine AND the piston made contact with one of the valves and damaged almost everything internal… piston, crank, shaft, valves, lifters, keepers, rockers, retaining plate, and jug. Plus the oil pump had metal run through it, the timing chain is compromised, and it needs a new tensioner obviously - which I hope to upgrade to a hotcams brand aftermarket. Took pictures of everything and sent an enquiry to Polaris, even tho the bike is 11 months out of warranty at the time. They agreed it was a manufacturer defect and offered to pay for all the parts, but not labour. I resent another inquiry soon after thanking them, but saying just parts wasn’t enough… they agreed again and said they’d cover all parts, plus 50% of labour. Im sooo glad I sent those inquiries and very lucky Polaris stood by their product! Its been about 3 months now since and im still waiting to this day… some parts are on back order unfortunately, but im being patient and playing the game. Total repair cost is estimated at around 5000$ total… ill still be on the hook for around 1500$ but thats a hell of a cry better than writing off my 2017 ATV after less than 500 hours of use and being left with nothing but a frame, plastics and tires!
Great job Taryl. Yep, that one was odd for as new as it was. I'm sure it would have stumped me for a bit also. Thanks for the great detail. T-bone Redneckville, South Carolina
17:20 That, sir, is the most aggressive heart workout I've seen in a while. 20 muscle ripping heart pounding rope jerks. Guess its a low compression engine at the moment. WELL DONE! -- North Central Florida -- 11.12.2023
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twisted crank. tossin the flywheel off. got me on this one for sure. agreed tho 10 hours wtf i wonder how far out of round the hole is ??? you had no smoke for bein stuck rings...
I think the compression test told the story. The Briggs without it's CR installed, should have been much higher than 80 pounds. The scrub cadet, with it's CR installed and working, was correct at about 60 pounds.
Are the valves bent?
So you are telling me a Predator engine is now better than a B&S engine? We are screwed!
You’re awesome! I love seeing you stumped because I know you’re not going to stop until you find out what the issues are. I’m going to learn… You care about us grass 🐀’s in Georgia.
It's refreshing to see a seasoned tech struggle with a engine. It gives us backwoods hacks a glimmer of hope to keep on keeping on. Thank you Taryl
had a bad coil spin a fly wheel and keep sheering keys before, you'd think they'd either spark or not spark but sometimes when they go bad they go off-time a bit
Lawn mower shops, its fun to try to run it as a flat rate shop, he is spending all this time on one project, i have been here several times chasing strange no start issues, or machine function issues, sometimes not enough hours in the day
I cant believe that B&S would make a Clone of the qualiity Honda motor, They obviously couldn't get that right ever. So bad piston rings, they paid that quickly, PR is working hard for the mistake of the Bean Counter's!
I was blown away when he said he’s never done a cylinder leak down test before. If I get an engine I can’t diagnose quickly with the usual test, I do a cylinder leak down test. It only takes a few minutes, literally, and you know if one or both valves are leaking, if it’s losing compression past the rings, if it’s a blown head gasket, etc. it would’ve saved him a lot of time.
That leak down tester he used from Harbor Freight is garbage. They sell one now made by Maddox that works great.
Another thing I noticed. When you do a cylinder leak down test, you have everything connected to the cylinder from the start. You do not pressurize the tester and then connect it to the cylinder hose. Lol.
You use the leak down tester to find exact top dead center, once there, you do have to clamp the engine into place. If it’s at exact top dead center it will stay there even after you put pressure into the cylinder.
Not many channels will do what Taryl does. Most channels wouldn't upload themselves struggling but thats part of yhe process and an invaluable step in diagnosis. This channel is a treasure ❤
Taryl's a Super Man! I can't believe how many times he pulled that recoil and never was out of breath or even slowed down! He might be on the thin side, but I'm guessing he's wiry as heck and all muscle! I might have been like that in my 30's and 40's and maybe even into my early 50's before I ruptured a disc, but now at 76 that much pulling would have pretty much have finished me for any kind of strenuous work for the day. ;-)
That would've destroyed me after the 1st set! LOL Either a heart attack or another round of back surgery! Taryl's stamina blew my mind!
Yeah I noticed that too pulling like that would throw you back out if you weren't warmed up at my age I'm 62... And I think he did it to show that Briggs & Stratton it's just another one of these companies that's really chins and out and putting plastic f****** camshaft ....
Taryl workout video dressed like Richard Simmons 😂
Now THIS is real mower detective work! Excellent video!
That crazy engine was even pissun ME off,... but the Lawn Mower Detectives brought some great humor to the day. Great video guys.
God bless your Sunday Taryl, You ROCK!
Great video Taryl. Just about everything you need to know in order to troubleshoot and repair a small engine. These companies really need to STOP outsourcing their builds to China. It's real Grade 'A' Crapola!
Thanks guys! I had a great time helping solve crimes. See you next time. PS the Dunkman's donuts were great but I'm still waiting for that steak dinner.
This year I refurbished a 1948 Whizzer-you know what they are-I couldn't get the engine to run right-good spark, fuel, etc. Finally I pulled the cylinder off, and found that the rings were completely worn out-put in new rings, and it runs like a champ-it had me stumped as well-thanks, Taryl and crew!
Whizzers are cool. I used to ride with the West Coast whizzer club in California.
That unnatural metallic squeaking when you're trying to start it... What the???
Total length of tappet + push rod probably equal between B&S and HF... B&S rod longer, tappet shorter... HF rod shorter, tappet longer
@briggsandstratton are you guys paying attention? All the chinesium in your products are destroying what’s left of your once sterling reputation
Pieces ain't available because they've broke on everybodies elses engine too, they're sold out😂
To be clear do they care? Everyone else's engines made in China as well.... If there's no good options at least a brand name alone will sell
It's not like China isn't capable of producing high quality steel. They are very capable. Briggs isn't REQUIRING them to do it. They certainly could but they don't care.
Not sure if their rep was always so sterling. For decades Briggs engines have been notoriously tempermental. Will it start today or not? 😢😢
There Sterling reputation began disappearing 60 years ago
I'm at 32:00. I think you have low compression. With the compression release on it, you will get 60 PSI, but without it I would expect higher compression, more than 100. Wouldn't you think? I bet if you took the compression relief off the predator and checked it like you did the Briggs it would be much higher. Just my guess at this point.
Finished video. Stuck rings probably a quality control problem, and obviously not something you would expect on a new engine! I bet the machining on the ring grooves was out of spec, too tight. To clarify what I said above, the compression release will function only at low RPM (ie: while starting) and keep the compression only at 60 PSI, but as soon as it fires and the RPM climbs the compression release should stop functioning and the compression should quickly increase to max compression which I would expect more like 100+ PSI, but that may vary with the engine. I'd be really interested if you did a follow up and checked the compression on that predator without the compression release. Interesting video, thanks for posting.
You're getting better all the time.
I can't believe how far your production value has come and I love that you have a way for your business to not only survive, but thrive.
God bless you brother.
You know Daryl, I was an green aircraft mechanic many, many, years ago. I used a differential air compression tester, not knowing how it worked, but only once did I find a cylinder not hold pressure, because it had a hole in the piston. I keep learning more and more as I watch these video’s. Keep up the good work.
There's your engine on your dinner! Great job Taryl! Never would have thought of that. Especially in a new or almost new engine.
Thank you for sharing that problem, & the paths you took trying to figure out the real problem. That is for sure one of those hard learned most remembered lessons! Briggs quality tanked years ago, & they are barely running on reputation at this point. How do they pay your time on something like this?
Just like , stihl , husksvarna , echo and toro , ford , Chevy , GE , the list goes all the way down the line , the leaders in charge ned to fix these problems or be held accountable
This skit went above and beyond. It was really funny and a nice way to start my morning
I totally agree , enjoyed it while eating breakfast. Taryl can figure it out . My shoulder cringed when I watch how many times you had to pull that rope “ it’s not starting” said in * high pitched voice . (Hubby always cracks up when Taryl talks to himself in this way) we love your show Taryl LOL Had to pause it so I wouldn’t choke while laughing at the lawn mower detectives skit too !
I'm still stumped why the thing had 80 lbs. compression with stuck rings. Great video Taryl. Thanks! I'd have thought that officer wasn't a rookie with how he handled that arrest. Great job Officer Faryl!
Because the leak was not a constant and sometimes the rings even sealed which is why it would run occasionally. This is a guess until someone has a better answer. Excellent work !!!
oil control rings create compression
The way the compression tester works is that it goes up to the maximum compression achieved but doesn’t go down again until you push the release pressure button. The leak down tester compares pressure in the cylinder on a steady state basis versus the pressure being introduced using an air line. With perfect a no leak down cylinder if Taryl introduced air at 60 lbs(it just bleeds air in) the cylinder would show 60 lbs also. However there is always some leak down past the rings in any engine. The problem is that there was WAY too much.
@@jasoncook5307 Compression rings are supposed to seal the combustion chamber from the crankcase. Oil control rings regulate how much oil is on the cylinder walls. I highly doubt any engine manual would say oil control rings create compression.
@@KStewart-th4sk because manuals are not made for engines with stuck compression rings.
Stuck rings is the last thing I would have thought of. I really like using a leak down tester. It doesn't take that much more effort to use over a compression tester and it provides a lot more information. The leak down tester will tell you about leaking intake or exhaust valves, holed pistons and blown head gaskets all in one test.
Agreed. But it sucks that Taryl had to resort to a leak-down test on a practically new engine. So much junk on the market from previously solid name brands. This video's got me thinking I should rebuild an old engine in my scrap pile. All of the parts are such higher quality.
I wonder if he could measure crank case pressure compared to a properly running engine.
@@dumbluck6180 I wood a nd metal hydraulics and may tag fun
Could brim
K
Could broken valve spring cause hard starting ?
Wow..thnks for takng the time to figure this 1 out. As a homeowner who doesn't have much time to figure these our it nice to see you take the time to trbleshoot rather than charge, replace, or junk the whole show. I knw one guy who wantd a tune up for his toro, it cost him as much as a new rather than just doin most himself
Plastic gear is one thing.. but the fact that it has plastic cam LOBES is just nuts
That’s really common. All these minibikes you see at Walmart or tractor supply have plastic cams in them. It doesn’t cause a quality problem. Had a few bikes with Chinese engines with the same plastic cam for over 10 years and still run fine. They’re not designed to overspin past 4,500 rpm’s.
Briggs & Stratton started using plastic cams about 30 years ago, actually probably a little longer than that on the 3.5 Classic L heads. They aren't normally a problem
It's usually a plastic gear that fails before the cam lobes, and that failure is usually from some other original cause.
A typical scenerio for B&S engines is fuel from a failing carburetor flows into the crankcase, diluting the oil and raising the level. Somewhat later the engine breaks a timing gear, perhaps after running great for its last few seconds. Did it fail from overspeed, the long term fuel soak weakening the plastic gear, or the high oil level putting too much load on the valve system?
A buddy of mine was telling me the other day that BMW has or is working on this thing were instead of having a throttle cable or even throttle by wire they are going further now,they will be moving the camshaft back and forth (inside the engine!!!) to lower the idle,lol,lets forgo the 10 dollar throttle cable and do something ridiculous and complex,cars are getting so insane and expensive pretty soon all you'll be seeing are old cars on the road.
I realize this video is about mowers but everyone is being affected by these crazy times we are living in,Ive heard of the industrial revolution but this is ridiculous,lol
@@dntlss BMW has had throttle-by-wire for a quarter century.
The 1998-era M52tu engine was a transition. It had a throttle cable going to the throttle body, where it moved a throttle position sensor. The engine computer read that position, and moved a motorized throttle plate that was immediately adjacent. That allowed using the new throttle-by-wire engine into vehicles designed around a throttle cable.
(There was actually a mechanical throttle shaft between the two. But it was a backup in case of a failure, using an incomplete coupling. The computer was normally the only source of throttle plate movement, but the mechanical linkage could partially open the throttle plate if the motor failed.)
The next generation M54 engine used a very similar intake manifold and throttle body, but with the throttle position sensor half removed. That engine could only be used with an electronic throttle pedal.
The recent engines control the intake charge entirely by controlling the intake valve opening, part of the variable valve timing. Initially that was paired with a traditional throttle body that was largely redundant, but later the throttle body was removed.
Great job sticking with it thank you for all your sharing of knowledge. Really didn’t think you’d get 80lbs with stuck rings I guess the leak down test was worth it. Ed
As tenacious as a pit bull! Indeed TarylFixesAll!
Fascinating video Taryl Fixes all! This is a total 'back to formula' video! You were very calm!
*high pitched voice. 'Lawn mower detectives!'.. Henceforth, I hereby nominate, this day, November 12 National Grass Rats day! Happy 4 you!
Great video Taryl, keep them coming.
That certainly helped me add to my things to look at, had a Briggs, their Vanguard line, on a Cyclone rake come into the shop. Needed a carb and coil initially to just try and get it running. Mouse chewed coil wire jacket and I figured coil was shorting out through the hole in the jacket to the metal covers or head. Carb was gummed up and pitted. Get that replaced and still wouldn’t start. Found this engine to have no compression. Customer opted to not fix or repower it. Appreciate these videos as they help me better myself and skills as some of these things are not covered in trainings offered by the manufacturers.
I would not have thought of stuck rings. My son would have lol but Taryl you are still the go to guy. Thanks for the video and all the great info. There's your dinner wooooooo
This was one of the best videos I have seen. Learn a lot of stuff about motors. Thanks.
I had this same issue on an old 18hp opposed twin for the whole season last year. Every time I would go to start it, I'd have to fight it again. Starter fluid and jump starting, etc.etc.. and nothing would ever work until randomly-- it would just start for no apparent reason; drove me nuts because I'm usually good at fixing this stuff. But it ran strong I could mow with it non-stop.. but after I parked it, I would have to fight it all over again the next time. Well finally one day when I couldn't start it: it was bad enough that it was blowing pressure out of the oil fill cap.. literally spraying oil out of the cap when I took it off. So I knew that it had stuck rings after that and had really bad blowby.. Once I took it all apart, I realized that it had a good amount of grass secretly hiding under the covers when I had already cleaned it at the start of the season-- so it must have been over heating too. It's on the healing bench at the moment; I'll get to it eventually
The Healing Bench! Nice!
Howdy Cuz! I just got back home and had a chance to watch the whole video. Excellent job for not giving up, one of your best vids yet. I had a similar thing happen several years ago and once I used a cylinder leak down tester, I found the problem. Those things are great at telling where the air is leaking - if you hear air coming out of the carbitrator it's the intake valve, mufkin it's the exhaust valve, oil fill hole it's the rings and if the head gasket is leaking externally you can spray soapy water around the gasket area and look for bubbles. In any case you now have something to help find the problem. I sure had fun visiting with you guys and being part of Lawn Mower Detectives. You guys are the best!!!
Appreciate you showing us how to save bucks on gaskets for these rebuilds.
Great show by the way!
I enjoyed this episode. You covered alot of diagnostic scenarios, good stuff for us amateurs. Thanks Taryl and I also enjoyed seeing my favorite character Jackyl, he is the funniest man in show business
Great video. How do you get such high compression with such a big leak down? Stuck rings, seems to me would result in low compression
The compression was low, he removed the compression release but compared it against a motor that had the compression release installed. Without a compression release it should have been over 100 psi easy and he should have felt difficulty in pulling the engine over. The whole, "pulling this engine over is easy, I don't know why they would even need a compression release" should have made him suspect compression issues.
This is your best episode ever. I really enjoyed this one. Thank you.
2 yrs and I’d imagine low hrs. What junk. You know it’s an issue when parts are Nla. Great channel thanks for the laughs and education.
I can see frozen rings after 10 hrs of run time.
I've had that problem in the past with valves. With these modern cheap engines, their design is sensitive to burning stale gas. So the customer runs for a few hrs one year, puts up for the winter, comes out in the spring and starts up, runs with stale gas and the varnish, while the engine is running and hot coats the valve stems (in my case) which freeze up after the engine cools back down and the engine wont start the next time (or any time after that until you take it apart and clean the valve stems up). In your case, I suspect the varnish, for whatever reason, migrated to the cylinder walls and got picked up by the rings which froze when the engine cooled back down. It would have been interesting to see if you could free up the stuck rings in your video - my guess is that you could have.
Always run the engine out of gas - let it just sit there and idle if that's what it takes - a dry fuel tank over the winter time and your rig will start and run reliably the next year.
I’ve been saying the same about Briggs going down hill, I know the Chinese Powermore engines are mainly on MTD stuff but I’ve always liked the ones on the snow blowers. The ones on the mowers seem fine too, I think They’re made by Zongshen and I believe they’re one of the better Chinese manufacturers probably the same ones that make Predator motors. Parts can be pricey though
Communist made motors!
Zongshen engines are sweet they come on 4 speed Chinese pit bikes and can take serious abuse
@@evanknight3629 no experience with the little pit bike engines but I've got a Chinese dual sport(zongshen 230cc Honda ch clone engine) and it's at least survived 20,000 miles so far and still running well from what I can tell, so regardless they seem to be worth the money 1600 for a new motorcycle I've got my moneys worth even if it blows up tomorrow
Thank you for sharing this video. I have a TORO Time cutter with the 2P77F v Twin motor. this is an older zero turn that has just quit o me.
In my "Detective" diagnosing, I ended up doing a compression test. One cylinder has 150pi, the other has 60psi, obviously, not right. I thought it was a valve, so I lapped the one with low compression.
If I crank the engine for about 3 min, it will eventually start, some times. Just like yours.
I have adjusted the valves, still not running.
So I was thinking it was the Compression Relief, or the CAM, but that does not make sense since the valves were functioning.
The one cylinder also is dry and is not getting gas on start up. IF I get it running, it runs like it is on 1.5 cylinders,
Then I thaought it must be the rings, bt since it has compression and the compression does not drop, I rued it out.
But now that you did a leak down test, I bet that if I did the test on mine, I would have the same results as your.
So, off I go to pull the motor and check the rings on the one cylinder.
Good to know that I am not alone when it comes to getting stumped! Thanks Taryl!
Thanks for making my life easier when I face my problems, Would have given up and replaced engine, I loose my KOOL easy and throw wrenches.
Good fix Taryl. I would still change the fuel cap because when it did run it would die after a few minutes. Also I had a briggs riding lawn mower that had a bad compression release, Would start and locked up the starter. Briggs said the cam was back ordered for about six months. I bought an aftermarket cam and held my breath that it would not fail. So far it is still good. Thanks for a great video.
Holy buckets !!!Good video . I can't tell you how many times I've been stumped like that🤯. had quite a few CT70s do that same thing rings sticking then im pounding my head against the wall (not to Alice in chains 😆) before i Figure out whats going on
Thanks for a great episode from an old ag teacher small engines instructor. You are great.
Love the fact he’s a Briggs dealer and still calls them Breaks and Scrap ‘em 😄
I love that if something stumps you you don't give up. You always figure out what it is. And that's what I like to do makes you feel good when you figure it out. Good job Taryl👍👍👍👍
The older I get, the more I appreciate value, especially when I consider how expensive power equipment is these days. So what has happened to a famous name like Briggs and Stratton is pretty sad. Also, I'm just a learn by doing homeowner --not a professional mechanic -- but my common sense tells me plastic cam lobes in a high pressure part of an engine isnt a good idea.
Tecumseh used plastic camshafts on their OHV engines. As long as you don't run them low on oil or use high strength valve springs they last just fine. I've sprayed starting fluid in many junkyard tecumsehs and had them start up first pull.
No matter what it is now , everything is junk!
An old car tech showed me a spark plug lower he welded on to a air nipple. I did the same, always works! Just listen and see where the air is leaking out when you pressurize the cylinder. You don't need the vise grips on a car engine, but you will on a mower/small engine. That guy showed me that in 1982.
You'll get it going bro you are a good mechanic
I have a Poulan Pro PR621 snow blower, it came with an STB 208cc engine. I bought it around 2009, and a couple years ago the engine stopped starting, just about like this one. Now that was after quite a few years. The blower was still in pretty good condition and I had just replaced the paddles and some other stuff. So I bought a Predator 212 for $99 (before the massive inflation). I retrofitted the side cover, carb, muffler, pull, etc. from the STB so I could keep the blowers cover and controls and all that, and for example the top oil dipstick.
After looking at the engines, they are both the Honda clones just like these. I could tell they probably were manufactuered in the same plants (maybe not), even the way the laser etching of the serial was very similar but obviously different between 10 years. I didn't check if the cams were identical, BUT the side cover fit without any modification so at least the bearing IDs were the same.
Was a fun little project.
Mustie 1 would be amazed at an hour vid from grass rats
Thanks Mr. T for the diagnosis. Is there a fluid that can be added to the carb that might break up the " sticky issue " either while cold or RUNNING and warmed up ? I remember pouring STP engine flush spray years ago to free sticky valves and clean out piston carbon.
Hey...It seems everyone loves those Predator Engines! They've even put them in old ranger pickups and they actually pull the darn thing!
I know because you can get them at harbor freight everybody used to love them because they were only $100 but now there like $160 everybody builds them 212cc engines up to 20hp for minibikes
@@seanmckay3392
Yep! Man you show is funny as monkey with a beanie!
Haven't laughed so hard since 'Married with Children'!
Kept it up! Better than most shows on Network TTTTVVVV!😜😄
I bought a Toro AWD push mower and the motor locked up and Toro would not replace the motor. Toro said if I have been changing the oil and I said yes, but I called Briggs and they said to call Toro. I took it to a authorize dealer and they said the engine was locked up and they would not replace the engine because of the oil not being changed which I did. But the manual and Toro said the oil never needs changing just check to see if it had enough oil in it. So I filed a claim with the BBB and guess
what they authorize the repair.
I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot. B&S has really gone down in recent years. Keep up the great work Taryl and crew.
Leak down testing has saved me time and helps to quickly identify or rule out problems. I have a HF leak down tester, but a better one than Taryl used. The better ones give you a direct pressure loss reading and you can calculated % loss.. About $85 at HF. I highly recommend you get a leak down tester that allows you to calculate the % loss. Helpful video in many areas.
Glad to see Jaryl Jack is back in action! Also we need more Donnie!
If you're not testing then you're guessing TARYL!!!! Great work. I appreciate your videos. They're full of great information.
I kept thinking a broken valve stem valve - but you said it would run occasionally. I did notice that there was no vent on the gas cap. But didn't know if that would cause an issue. Now I wonder if that caused an increase in cylinder pressure and cooked the rings? Doubt it - no cylinder wall damage mentioned. Good work man.
Running lean for too long will overheat it I think
I felt your frustration throughout the video. I still don't understand how you can get good compression readings and have stuck rings... I don't think I would have found that problem! It's true to life, things don't always go as expected when you're troubleshooting.-- thanks for the great work!!!
I have seen good compression readings and leak down showed intake valve was leaking. That is when I started using a leak down tester exclusively.
That was a hell of a lot of time to spend on that repair!!!
Time spent finding the problem just replaced the engine with a HF engine
I'm 31 minutes in to this thing. This is a little frustrating. I didn't see him put the B&S cam back together with decompression in the machine when he was testing the compression. so 80 psi is very low if there is no decompression on the cam, 80 is way too low to run. Should have closer to 150 psi. I bet the top end is toast from lack of lubrication. Just a prediction. UPDATE: just finished it. So it was the top end, stuck rings. I was close. I love he brought out the leak down tester. That is the 4th or 5th item we use when something like this happens at the shop. We usually start with carb (shot of starter fluid), spark plug (does it spark, is it wet), exhaust (air coming out?), compression test (60-80psi for hand start engine), leak down test if all tests come back good. Glad you got it running! Very informative as always.
80 pounds with stuck rings. That oil ring was really trying to keep up and take one for the team 😂
I would have call in the Marvel Mystery oil Team for the save
Its really the only way to test piston aircraft engines. Never used a compression gauge because the differential tester did it all. Holding the prop at TDC made it easy. You would of heard the air leaking from the oil fill or dipstick.
The mower shop across the street from us has the SAME kind of issues with parts. It's nice that you've shared your struggles with us.
The scrub cadet had 60 pounds of compression because it still had it's compression release operating. The Briggs, with the CR removed, was actually too low, I thought.
Yes but not by much it should have had about 80-90 with not CR, but without a CR, he wasn't able to pull it at full speed either. But stuck rings might seal enough down in the hole to get somewhat decent compression, but if the stuck rings were leaking at or just past TDC, what was happening was every time the cylinder fired, and the piston began to move on the power stroke, all the pressure would blow-by. I was noticing when he had it running with no valve cover, it looked quite smoky, like it had too much blowby. It was way too much blowby for only 10 hours so I was already thinking bad rings, or scored cylinder wall at that point in the video. Look at @21:45
@@brnmcc01 He actually remarked that the Briggs was easy to pull and did not need a compression release. It was easy to pull because it had low compression, imo.
Thank You The dry plug is a clue to the piston ring problem You nailed it! Thanks for sharing.
I wonder if the ringlands on the piston were machined too thin. Enough room for the rings to move initially, but even a slight bit of sludge from normal operation caused them to stick. Adequate clearance might have accommodated the little bit of sludge. That's my theory.
I am thinking the same thing. A machining problem from the factory, and the most tiny amount of 'varnish' or sludge forming in the ring land caused them to stick real quick. It's totally normal to have a little bit of varnish form on any engine, new or old, but when the factory screws up and doesn't provide correct clearance, BOOM !!! It's junk.
I'm thinking something in the fuel, some oil, additives, contaminates, old fuel, etc. sometimes additives can be very bad if the tolerances are tight and they run lean for emissions cruft.
I bet you're right.@@throttlebottle5906
Very nice to see the whole process and problem solving. Thank you.
Amazing is all I can say. B&S probably makes double on those foreign parts so that they can pay those warranty claims as quickly as they do. Like you Ive seen plenty of stuck rings especially on two strokes, but very few on 4 strokes that had oil in them. Good Job Taryl.
I don’t recall which engine it was but James Condon TH-cam generator repair channel came across a cam with compression release stuck in the compression relief position. Kind of bumped the compression release after removing the cam, the compression release went back to normal 23:49 and could not replicate the problem. That unit’s cam was all metal.
To memory compression release looked significantly different.
The push rods would probably interchange as long as you change the tappets too. The Briggs push rod was a little longer and the tappet was a little shorter, and the opposite for the predator by what looks to be the same amount. Unless the tappets won't fit into each other's blocks.
A 212 hemi will interchange including the crank, and cam.
Non hemi have smaller cam mounts like the gx 160- 200 Honda so non hemi, and Honda interchange.
Honestly I thought the coil had messed up, until you proved that wrong! I would have never thought about stuck rings. Thank you for a great video sir
Mind boggling. I learned something about leak down testers. Thanks!
If you think it's hard getting parts from Briggs then you should try getting them from harbor freight
I hade a honda engine with the same problem as the Briggs went through everything like you did. Finally found the problem the rings on the piston were hanging up fixed it and it ran
Taryl, it seems like all of these manufacturers are dropping the ball.
I had a nice little Hustler Dash with the junk single cylinder Power Built engine. I knew the crank was eventually going to fail. I sold it and got an older mower
I rebuilt my dads Honda GSV190 powered Honda lawnmower which I filled up with semi synthetic oil,it has done only 5 hours of work but it will start getting a workout tomorrow since it's late spring in my area here in Australia, the rain & heat has made the grass grow like crazy.
That stuck ring issue is what sort of happened to the Intek engine on my grandfathers John Deere lawn tractor which my uncle gave him,he didn't change the oil & he kept on cranking & cranking the engine until he burned out the starter motor.
Even the local lawnmower mechanic in town thought that a broken compression release on the camshaft was a cause of the starter motor problem until he pulled the cover off the engine.
It still had compression albeit a scored cylinder & my grandfather hasn't really wanted to talk to me ever since because I unbolted the engine & he thought that I was wrong about things,I always never have a habit of stuffing things up like they did.
When my uncle got remarried 2 weekends ago he didn't want to talk to me at the wedding either,I think that it was because I got a different McDonagh whose wasn't a Green one of whose Mahers whose a Gray !
I’m betting the customer has never changed the air in the tires … good luck getting the engine warranted
Tray did get the engine warrantied from B-S
The engines the problem not the leaf attachment
@@juniorlazaro289 I think it's a joke.... Don't over analyze it.
Was thinking of minute cracks in engine or carb problem. My thoughts before watching full video. Well done Taryl.
Question : if it's determined that rings are stuck, is there a chance that soaking the cylinder with snake oil, ATF, or something like marvel could remedy the situation? This video was absolutely amazing and I really learned from it. I claim myself as an efficient grass rat, but so many times have been tunnel visioned in the wrong direction. Thank you for sharing the struggle!
The chances are that you’ll free them rings all right. The challenge now is to keep them from getting stuck again. So to prevent this from happening again in the future change the rings or even better piston and rings together. Don’t forget to break in the piston rings as you would do with new engine (5-6 hours run at minimum with first oil change after 1-2 hours)
At least the warning label is still available! At $20.99! I love your channel. As a former mechanic, I feel your pain. The world reset hadn't happened yet when I was still employed so I REALLY feel sorry for those still in it!
I have had the intake valve stick because of old fuel. And that is what I was thinking it was. Never thought of the rings being stuck.
Great video! Podunk’s finest lawn mower detective!
I told my wife after you checked the valves and timing that this engine had a ring issue. I knew you would get there eventually...😉👍
I said the same thing to my wife, she said “Speaking of rings Christmas is coming!” It was then I knew I Fudged Up!
Wow.. that was a doosey of a problem Taryl. Great troubleshooting tutorial though!
Thanx for taking us along for the ride to learn how to check everything! 👍
The reason one motor had 60psi and other had 80psi is because the 60psi had the compression release working. The motor that had 80psi without a compression release is too low. Should have been 100+ without a compression release. Also, you can tell where the leak is by feeling over the carb, muffler and oil check port to see where the leak is when doing the leak down test.
Oh! That explains the higher compression, which to my mind should have been lower if the rings were stuck into the grooves. I forgot he'd already removed the compression release! Thanks so much for catching that and mentioning it - saved me asking the obvious question.
I love using my leakdown- so useful. Taryl should have remembered about the comp release he took off. It looked like he had low blood sugar or was coming down with something! Or lack of sleep.
Yep he compared the compression between one with a compression release working and the bad engine it was removed should have been over 100,
Good job, I heard about using the synthetic oil on break in. Do you think that is what caused the rings to seize to the piston.. I was wondering if they were stuck because of old gas with low octane. Just thinking that way cause the top of piston carboned up. Oh well still good video, B&S were were good motors.. oh well thanks for video....
Glad to see Ronnie's involved, of course he's always up to no good, thanks taryal, Jr and slippers , the cousin , and all we all thank you very much
Thanks for the video Taryl.
Stuck rings could have been caused by running it too hard for the first 20 hours. We used an old broken piston ring to clean out the grooves, so they had the correct 2 thou or so clearance... It happened more often with two-stroke motors.
Another terrific vid Taryl! I've been trying get a Krohler K-141 to run without success. It used to run fine but then after a long day's work it just gave up. I've been convinced it was from lack of spark so have tried two coils one of which was a brand new genuine Krohler part. Still no joy. I had experts look at the magnets in the flywheel but still no go. But with this experience of yours perhaps my piston rings have seized in the slots ? I can see a small blue spark when I turn it over but I'm a 67-year old pencil pusher so don't have the puff to keep pulling the cord and look for spark at the same time.
Maybe it was running rich - anyway I'm going to do a leak down test (it has an ACR so compression test is difficult) and see what I find out. Never woulda occurred to me without your words of wisdom. From across the pond in Jolly Old (wet) England....thanks again!
Love this guy, just a few questions please address them, been working on small engines also, a little while, lol,,, why didn't you check fuel line delivery first ? Also if rings are stuck, wouldn't compression be either very low, or very high ? 80 psi is about normal for that size piston. Seems if fuel delivery was normal, when the muffler was removed and the pull start was engaged , over and over, there would have been either fire thru the exhaust port, or at least backfire? I personally believe this engine suffered from , fuel starvation and a partially sheared flywheel key,, advanced or retarded timing?, please address these questions, I really enjoy this channel, but stuck rings, the psi was too on point to be the reason, exhaust valve was loose as he explained, so good fuel delivery would or should have delivered backfire or severe flooding, please get back, thanks
Great episode 👍🏻
I replaced a Tecumseh snowblower engine with a Chinese made Princess Auto Pro-Point engine. Rebuilding the Tecumseh was crazy $$$.
It ain't got no gas in it.
Good one
This all reminds me of recently when my ATV didn’t want to start anymore. It died suddenly while riding just slowly around the property… i took all the plastics off and stripped it down, did troubleshooting for months before giving up. The bike was a few years old by now, but only had about 400 hrs on it. It had spark, held compression, and had good fuel pressure. Bench tested the temp sensor, the crank position sensor, the map sensor, and tps. Bench tested the magneto and pdm. Did continuity tests on all wires, harnesses and clips. Replaced the fuel pump and injector and a whim. Also replaced the idle air control valve solenoid on a whim. Replaced spark plug, plug wire, and coil. I checked the woodruff key and it was beauty. I absolutely had nothing left to go on except for valves and clearances, rings, crank/piston, decompression valve, timing etc. but it seemed waaaay to soon for that and in order to dig that deep the engine would need to come out, plus if any of those were the issue thats total bs and id be contacting Polaris directly - so I brought it to an authorized dealer. Took them almost 3 weeks to find the issue after repeating everything i had done previous. Turns out the timing chain tensioner failed at some point which advanced the timing by a few teeth retarding the engine AND the piston made contact with one of the valves and damaged almost everything internal… piston, crank, shaft, valves, lifters, keepers, rockers, retaining plate, and jug. Plus the oil pump had metal run through it, the timing chain is compromised, and it needs a new tensioner obviously - which I hope to upgrade to a hotcams brand aftermarket. Took pictures of everything and sent an enquiry to Polaris, even tho the bike is 11 months out of warranty at the time. They agreed it was a manufacturer defect and offered to pay for all the parts, but not labour. I resent another inquiry soon after thanking them, but saying just parts wasn’t enough… they agreed again and said they’d cover all parts, plus 50% of labour. Im sooo glad I sent those inquiries and very lucky Polaris stood by their product! Its been about 3 months now since and im still waiting to this day… some parts are on back order unfortunately, but im being patient and playing the game. Total repair cost is estimated at around 5000$ total… ill still be on the hook for around 1500$ but thats a hell of a cry better than writing off my 2017 ATV after less than 500 hours of use and being left with nothing but a frame, plastics and tires!
Great job Taryl. Yep, that one was odd for as new as it was. I'm sure it would have stumped me for a bit also. Thanks for the great detail. T-bone
Redneckville, South Carolina
It's an another example of incurred/engineered obsolescence via the Democrat Party.
I have also never heard of stuck compression rings on a new engine.
@@gilreynolds9282 the automotive business and American politics are two different things....wake up
Amazing- you had it running and you would think heat makes things expand . You’re a great repairman !
Great video Taryl, sometimes they aint easy Thanks for taking us along really enjoyed it..
17:20
That, sir, is the most aggressive
heart workout I've seen in a while.
20 muscle ripping heart pounding rope jerks.
Guess its a low compression engine at the moment.
WELL DONE!
-- North Central Florida
-- 11.12.2023