Howee definitely lives in reality. Hard core old school and there is absolutely no substitute for his decades of experience and knowledge. Guy like him is worth his weight in gold nowadays.
I've been at the shop I work for for over 30 years making prototype parts and small quantities of production parts on manual lathes and mills. About 3 years ago the owner got me a Hurco CNC mill and I freaking love it!!! You can do mill work just like on a manual mill just with the controls and the conversational programming is very quick to program. It will also run g&m code programs. I don't mind not having to change out every tool on every part now either. However, I wouldn't know half of what I do now if it wasn't for having done it the old school way for so many years. Love your channel ❤! Please keep them coming 👊
some conversational are great and very fast to make a program. I think I used all 5 fingers to program a Tree CNC mill. My first job after school, luckily they also had one in school so I already new it
I feel that hobbyists like me understand how a good machinist compensates for a bad machine, because at our budget level that's all we have available a lot of times. There's beautiful accurate work coming off of terrible cheap machines in the hobby world. A lot of hobbyists are even improving their old worn out stuff to better than new spec.
In our machine shop, we have a Ward 07 built in 1911 and it was purchased into the company secondhand in 1940. It produces Vs in larger pulleys, a CNC to do the same swing and has the same plunge cut ability $1, m. Just the largest V we produce 30 -40 a year to customer specific. Nothing the same OD or Bore. Totally understand what you are saying.
I used to work with jigs and fixtures on a manual milling machine in my own shop and this was the way with my shop. I did work in a CNC shop when I was older and did programming but I had to be on top of the machine or it would err at times. I did study precision machining under Germans who came over here in the U.S. under Operation Paperclip. They did superb work but did not have CNC tools. All their work was with jigs and fixtures and so that's the way I machined in my shop.
17:44 the benefit of this for quick prototyping is there can be 20 people prototyping at the same time on the same $150k CNC. All of the parts can be cut out the same day while only one person is needed to watch the machine. If the company is doing such quick work, it would be more beneficial to pay for 20 engineers (or ex-machinists) to be prototyping rather than keeping 20 machines running, pay 20 machinists and 20 engineers to make the plans. Like you said it's all financial - it can make sense for a small shop if they are inventing or have a production contract but probably doesn't make sense for the shop that is only a repair shop
This is the best discussion yet on this topic. There is no one size fits all answer. CNC vs Manual is just an Apples vs Oranges argument. They both have their places, anyone who says one is better than the other is just ignorant. My shop is all manual, not because I don't see a reason to have CNC but rather, I don't like the work CNC is good for. On the other side, almost 50% of my business is from other CNC only shops needing manual machining. There is no comparison, just depends on your market.
Biased video, which is understandable. Pros and cons to both. Real shop needs both, but i know which one i pick everyday, that is CNC. If you have the correct setup, it can be quick in certain circumstances, most of them to be fair. Running one while preparing and programing the next. If you have batch work more then ten, one man is not held up at one machine doing one job, he can run multiple machines. Simple
The problem with old CNC controls is that they are so bad that programming them is just like pulling your hair out. Haas did the world a huge favor in making a control that a lot of people warm right up to. It's not the end-all be-all but it's a damn sight better than 25 year old Fanucs.
Agreed! As someone who has to use a 25 year old Fanuc I can assure you that I would have quit my job ages ago if I hadn't discovered Cimco Edit, which allows me to program on a laptop and upload the program to the controller.
I ran an old Fanuc OM for a few years. 1988 machine. Line process time was slow, forget deccel override. Mirror image of a tool path/macro was weird, and you had to return to the origin every time you changed the coordinate system. And nothing visible on the screen when running from remote. We never hand coded from that little console that would suck.
even compared to modern Fanucs, the introduction of Manual Guide on Fanuc was a great leap forward for programming on the control, right now we are in process of setting up a dual spindle dual turret Takisawa lathe for large production runs and what nobody realized until the machine was delivered, that there is no manual guide... Programming has to be done via raw G-code... But luckily for us, we can simply punch in the program on any other fanuc lathe and let the machine convert it to raw g-code. Another problem with old controls is that you can make the same part often twice as fast on a modern machine without changing feeds and speeds, just by higher rapids, faster tool changes and accels...
Great to watch your content as it bringings back memories of working in a shop that had both Manual and CNC. Lot’s has changed and every shop is different with the type of work it does. In my shop we used both and it was hard to beat a manual mill or lathe for certain operations. Reminds me a saying “Horses for Courses”.
plenty of cnc's don't have enclosures . i got one vertical machine center with 40 x80 inch travel with no enclosure. so that 10 foot shaft would fit fine on that. i also have 5 haas vf4ss machines that are used for secondary operations on fiberglass parts we mold. each machine does 170 cycle/ shift for 3 shifts 5 days. they are all older machines around 2006 because they are cheap , fast , accurate enough have linear ways which are better when you can't use coolant and have fiberglass dust, and haas has great local service which is important when you are in a small town. another reason for cnc is you can cut shapes you can't do manual like make steel molds in 3d.
My dad was a machinist, was for 68 years. You and him are very much alike. We would talk for hours almost every day. I could listen to you share forever.
You are extremely inspiring in your thought process and it's sadly being lost to time and my sad excuse of a generation keep up the great work and videos
So you're a sad excuse? Because you can't know enough people from your generation to say it's sad as a whole. what you see and hear is a grain of sand to all that's happening on this rock. There's plenty of people from all generations that are absolute genius.
The 2 job shops I worked at in the mid 90’s had mostly manual machines. One only had 1 I think it was a Mazak I say I think cause I never used it. The other had 3 a Herco which was used all the time and a mill like you have there and 1 lathe. All of the manual machines were always used and were the backbone. The screw shop I worked at had no cnc. It had over 20 Brown & Sharpe clinkers, the dungeon had 10 really old Brown & Sharpes mostly for tiny screws, 6 six spindle Wickmans, a Wizzer, more than a few manual turret lathes and an old Cincinnati centerless grinder all being used everyday. The heat generated from the machines kept us warm in the winter which was central Jersey.
You hit the nail on the head with your comments here my friend. I am the equipment manager at a rigging company in Massachusetts. I constantly hear it's my fault if a piece of equipment does not do what the operator wants it to. It's the owners fault for not purchasing a newer piece of equipment to do a different task, When any experienced and qualified operator can take that same piece of equipment, and produce excellent results. It's easy to make excuses but actually doing the work and learning the task and doing it correctly. That's where the real value is.
no way! I'm a machinist / millwright that has been considering work in the yukon and alaska but couldn't really find work, or at least work that would accept someone that would need to move from southern ontario. What kind of wrok do you typically get? Mining, Ship and boat repairs? I also will thank you for tidbits from such an experienced machinist, I am only 31
An expert cnc operator can run a bunch of machines. An ordinary tradesman can run one machine. Takes a very skillful tradesman to run manual machines and be quick and accurate. DRO's and quick change tool posts with lots of holders is a very good compromise.
Love the part where u said "if ur a machinist, u really should do whatever it takes with what you're given, to do the best you can." Spot on. Love ur videos man, keep up the good work.
This all depends on how you think. If you find thinking in conversational Cnc language easy then it's easy and fast. If you think in manual machining it won't be faster.
@@MT_T991 to me it feels more like someone who has life-long experience on manual machines and only a very limited knowledge/experience with modern CNCs, as i said in a comment on his previous video, there still are applications where manual machine is faster, but those are few and far between, CNC mills can do much more with limited tooling, you dont need a tool specific for every job. Also there are edgecases where manual machine is simply more economical, lets say you are turning 40inch pulleys twice a year, not really viable to buy a cnc lathe for that specific task, but if you know you are doing it somewhat often, you should consider buying a VTL...
I sorely wish I had known about your shop in 2005. I was working at a machine shop in Anchorage and couldnt hack city life anymore. Moved back to Minnesota. I look forward to watching these videos.
What a great video, stuff I think about all the time in everyday life, but I don’t know if it has ever been articulated as well as you did in this video. I could comment on and on for hours about stuff that you touched on but the classic example 1920s screw machine still spitting out screws.-It never needed a software update, no computer boards,in a 100 years, if you needed a part, you can make it. I am old-school too, and I have been through this my whole life too, with home computers with cell phones, with trucks and equipment, the computer age to put it simply, here today, gone tomorrow, what I mean by that is you have something cutting edge today, five years down the line it’s obsolete and there is no more computer support for that machine anymore. Modern day computer engineers are going to completely ruin this country, all technology has done in my life in the trucking industry has done is to drive up the cost of equipment so high you can’t afford to buy anything anymore, and their technology now is causing the majority of the problems on the equipment. Again great video- my rant is over also. lol
54 years in a manual shop. Started with a VICA program in High School at 14. Hired in to a machine shop at a Potash mine as a journeyman in 1974. I have yet to push a green button on a CNC. I have spent my entire career in the mining industry as a machinist. Some of the work is rocky-stone axe work. For instance, we had a bearing lose lubrication on a big Tyrock screen and wear a deep groove in the shaft. The groove was 1/4" deep all the way around the bearing fit. It was a multi-shift job to change the shaft. My boss had me build a sleeve for the shaft and then split it axially. They then put a new bearing in place and pounded the sleeve under it. Then they welded the sleeve on the accessible ends and the welding pulled the sleeve tight against the bearing bore. I told the boss that i would give it a lifespan of 24 hours. It ended up lasting over 3 years. Never would have believed it possible. I believe that, with the proper fixturing, I can beat a CNC in speed. However, when the phone rings the machine stops. Likewise when the end of the day rolls around or nature calls. There are places for a CNC, but not in any of the places I have ever worked. Anyway, I work in my shop at home now that I have retired. I make parts all winter so I can spend my summers in Seward. If I get up Fairbanks way I'll stop in. Thanks for the thoughts on the practical aspects of manual machining.
my first job had wire EDMs and manual machines, we had one vf2 that didn't get much use. but i did like the proto mills them worked pretty good for between cnc and a Bridgeport. we also had surface ganders, most of our work flow was mill to shape with holes, heat treat, then some grinding to shape then wire for the complex shape.
Somtimes i get burned out at the lathe, so i sit down watch a video or somthing, clear my head and get back to it. But im also on my own time making parts for myself.
Sad to see a working tool thrown out in the artic weather. It's to bad you don't have someone efficient with CNC's, they would really save you lots of time/labor.
"Beware the man with only one rifle because he knows how to use it." This applies to pretty much anything including machine tools. A lot of the reasons you are using such as tools available for the machine tools are BS because the thought process and set up is essentially the same for CNC or manual. I have both, are jobs that simply make more sense on one machine or the other. I interchange tools between machines and my doors open up on the CNC so I can put a 10' piece in it, the deciding factor is whether or not I want a 10' piece flailing around with a mind of it's own or not. In most cases it is a question of can I make the piece faster or more accurate with the added programming time on the CNC vs Manual, there are a lot of really good CNC guys who can and do. For me I like to be able to feel a cut on a manual can be the deciding factor but if there are a lot of compound curves etc it is CNC without question.
For the bulk of what you do, a CNC has no real advantage aside from the fact that a CNC has a great DRO and does patterns like bolt hole circles or things like cams easily. If you are a small one or two machine type of shop, the advantage to a CNC is that you can do one off jobs and small productions. As you are saying, there is no one size fits all machine.
I met *one* person in my career who was as comfortable using a CNC or a Bridgeport. He could enter gcode in real time as easily and quickly as anyone I've ever seen run a manual machine. Even just decking off a plate or cleaning an edge. It's certainly unusual and special but not impossible! The thing that disappoints me most is that CNC guys tend to treat manual equipment like obsolete junk that's beneath their expertise. The milling centers are all running to tenths, but the Bridgeport has .300 of backlash in both axes and the knee only goes up.
I have an old 1948 monarch lathe with a 12’ between centers, war spec nearly brand new. I run it three times a year so I don’t have to outsource oversize parts. It pays for itself each time I turn the switch on. No payments.
I'm a manual machinist in a job shop with both manual and CNC. I work primarily for the press repair dept. where we tear down and rebuild large punch presses and other large industrial machinery. Many one-of's come to me, repairs to shafts or bushings, chasing damaged threads, welding or metalizing damaged bearing journals . In our shop it is far more economical in time and money to do this work manually. I may have to duplicate a part for which we have no drawings, and where we may actually change bearing/bushings fits by turning down damaged journals or bores to clean metal and then make appropriately resized parts in order to buy an old machine some new life. This is very often better than having the CNC dept. stop high paying production work to fit in a single job when I could easily do the entire job (including welding/metalizing) in a single machine without ever having or producing a working drawing. The CNC's are making money in the meantime doing what they do best.
Within the size range is the key, what happens when they get the bright idea to put an extension on a small CNC HAAS T1 lathe to turn a large taper on 5.5" diameter hot roll .25" wall 5 foot long! I am a nervous wreck because they bought it and intend on doing it. It only has a 3' bed, less the chuck and tailstock, they will need to attach about a 3' modified extention minimum and a wonky huge live center.
We make are money in our shop with CNC but still have a manual lathe and manual mill for certain things and small jobs when the others are busy. I can run 3 machines doing high quantity work and still play on my phone and talk to customers. Making good money. I don't think I'm cut out to be cranking handles all day long working on just one machine. Also hard to make a living here doing that.
You have a dream shop .You have everything. You're out there in Norman's land. Sometimes, it sounds like you are I a lowpoint of business at the moment. I notice you debate your self. More power to you out there in the cold. Keep up the good info. What's the next video. By the time you getter all paned out on cnc the work drys up
I feel like people do the same thing here as they do in other areas like automobiles....oh everyone should buy an electric car...no...right now they have a place and a use case....not for everyone not all the time for every task...you wouldn't buy a 40,000 dollar medium duty truck used to haul 5 loads of firewood a year...it's just not the right tool for the job...this applies to most things...you have a really nice lathe that you care for and spent good money on when the job calls for it...if you need to do an emergency job on a crooked rusty spare part that's been in the woods that requires you to cut an inch off the machine for clearance to make it happen you have a cheap machine to use for that, it can absolutely make you 10 times what the machine cost cause new part is unobtainable or needed right now, high priority need it now problems pay accordingly to be solved...as he said a 1000 dollar machine was modified used to make the customer happy and make the business much more money and the machine is still worth as much or more now that you even have the extra flexibility ...and a worn out loose machine just requires an operator that's worth what he's paid and a little extra care and attention to detail to make a quality part...wouldn't wear rare expensive shoes to work in the rain...at the end of the day they are tools and destroying a 1k machine to make 10k is a good idea...if you have work that lends itself to the cnc's abilities great...if not why have the money and space tied up...again wouldn't buy an 18 wheeler to haul 5 loads of firewood a year...right tools for the job and such...use your brain...spend less make more live well...
I wish I could grind chip breakers like the old guy Stan I worked with when I first started. He never showed be, I tried to copy some of his bits I still have in the drawer but I could never get them to work like his. I’m sure the cut depth and feed has a lot to do with it. That “feel” you have with manual machines.
You should do a show on the lost art of hand tool grinding. There are a lot of different ways to grind a drill. There are a lot of ways to grind a cutting tool. Explain the geometry of a tool sharpened for brass as compared to cast iron or SS. Another show on how do you make a hole. Which depends on what the hole will be used for. Another show on what a huge improvement geometric tolerancing was.
I concur! I learned how to use a lathe by watching an old timer in my shop, and he explained the cutter to me by showing me how to grind the correct surfaces into a blank on a pedestal grinder. When I bought my lathe I got a pack of blanks and made pretty much all the tools I use, and everyone who sees my shop is surprised I'm not using carbide inserts and asks why I'd ever want to do such a thing. If the choice is to spend money and wait for a specialized tool or walk over to the grinder and make it, it's an easy decision.
I don't disagree with anything you have said, It really boils down to every shop has to make their own decisions based on how much footprint their shop has, and what kind of work they do. I have worked in the R&D aerospace industry for almost 10 years now, and it would be impossible for us to make the parts we make, in the footprint we occupy with manual machines. We run lots of ceramic cutters, wire EDM's etc, in inconel, renee etc, and most of the parts have complex geometry. We still keep a few manual bridgeports and lathes, but they are almost always relegated to making parts for shop use, its very rare for them to send parts out the door. I miss running manual machines sometimes, but with our workload they just aren't practical
We've come a long way from covered wagons to the cars of today. There will always be some form of manual machining, no doubt. Not sure when the last time you actually used a cnc. The batteries, software doesn't go bad or need updating that often.
Last sentence of the video is the absolute truth. Right back to ancient Greek philosophy, at first you have to realize how much you dont know to really start learning. I can say about myself, that i am pretty competent machinist, 99% of the time CNC, always learning new things, new processes, trying new tooling, i like to say that i dont know the phrase "thats not possible". But i have to admit, Titans of CNC have somewhat opened my eyes on how to push the trade further, make parts faster and make them right. Every machinists demise is when he stops learning...
It's also worth pointing out that if you are watching the machine run then you *do* have the option of pushing the red button and cutting chips off then pushing the green button and let it continue. You shouldn't have to do that, but you *can*.
@@rok1475 And just who is this machinery going to hurt if there is nobody nearby? The insurance company doesn't care if you wreck your tooling. I *have* wrecked tooling when the coolant channel clogged during a run, and that cost something like $250 to replace (which was annoying) but that was after hundreds of hours of running without supervision. How much would hundreds of hours of supervision have cost? The people putting stock in the machine have no experience. They are just people who are working elsewhere in the plant. They drop by every 45 minutes to pull out parts and chips and to put in a new piece of material, so every hour I get 50 more good parts, and if anything is wrong (out of spec size or bad surface finish, for example) then the machine stays off until I am in the next day to adjust the wear offset or sort out the coolant or whatever. I mentioned before that I was quoted $3 each for these parts. That's $30,000 for 10,000 of them, or I can buy the material pre-cut to 4' lengths for $1500 and have a person with relatively light duties spend some of their time changing parts. It's not a difficult decision economically. $30,000 vs. $1,500 is pretty significant. The only reason I takes 45 minutes to make 50 parts is because I am single-pointing the parts. If I was to get custom tooling made I could make the parts in seconds, but then I can't make changes without having the tooling modified (I don't have the equipment to make the tooling). For us, the way we do it is by far the most reasonable, and the insurance company couldn't care less.
The new controls are real easy to program conversational. That old lathe you talk about innacurracy the new cnc controls will compensate for if you colluminate the correction in the control. Its actually harder to find a manual machinist than a cnc machinist. Not alot of what your saying applies today. It used to be not anymore.
The other point is, cnc machines can cost a lot more to operate electricity wise than a manual machine. If your electric costs are expensive, you will notice a cnc machine can really eat up the kilowatts.
About half my carear was with manual and the later with cnc as mostly toolmaker work so very small quantities say 1 to a dozen parts. There are plenty of times a cnc doesn't make sense and manual is faster. There's programming time and set up time to factor and the first piece takes some dialing in. I ran a toolmakers version of that machine shown 5 axis but always had a bridgeport handy for some of my work. Laguns were stronger and more accurate then bridgeports. My older Maho was conversational which blows away Fanuc and it's a shame all machines aren't conversational. I ran fanuc later for many years and was very proficient but give me a conversational any day. Haas fanuc was far superior then the other fanucs (but the machines were lighter duty )but still you would think by now everyone would agree on one type of programming for all machines. We had cnc surface grinders in one shop that were more of a pain to use then conventional ones. CNC isn't always the answer.
I agree with you 100%. Manual machines are underrated and still very valuable. One thing that CNC also does is it doesn't require a skilled machinist to operate. It takes a lot of time to train a machinist plus time on the jobs to become proficient. CNCs require an operator, programmer and engineer. however, the programmer and engineer can do multiple machines. A added advantage is for repeat jobs, you already have the engineering and programing work done.
If you’re manufacturing product I don’t see how you’d get the same results without a CNC. If you’re working on stuff that is already manufactured such as doing repairs or really anything that isn’t the same job over and over you don’t NEED it. As a generalization of course.
In machine shops down here in the states in my area it’s now common for so many people to say “just do it on one of the CNC machines.” Or “just draw it up in MasterCam and run it.” I’ve had to prove to them that sometimes manual is faster. I do agree 100% that you can’t know everything. All the senior guys I’ve worked with have taught me so many different ways of doing things. It’s one of the many reasons I love the trade.
i think this isn't a cnc vs manual machine video, this is a market and location video. If your in a location where all of your work is large shafts and they are relatively simple then why get a cnc. if your doing a lot of repair work why get a cnc. I would put forward the point you buy the right machine for the job. it can be manual or cnc. At the end of the day the business that makes money stays open and if that means you can stay open running manual machines, great. But if your struggling to get work because the competition can do it faster and cheaper then it might be time to rethink your business strategy.
cnc is cool cause you have ballscrews, so if you treat it like a manual you can still do some cool stuff, not even counting the crazy profiles and what not, However most manuals can do things that CNC's just can't do. As for who's on the hook to make good parts, the guy setting it up AND the guy running production, everyone else in the chain is there just to make sure those folks are doing their job correctly.
Nobody ever seems to talk about how difficult it is to make an accurate fit in a cnc machine (especially a mill). Good luck hitting a few microns if you don't have a boring head and need to rewrite your program for every adjustment.
@@reinermiteibidde1009 *Some* very old controls don't have offsets for milling tools. 30+ years ago. My point is reprogramming to cut to final size is not something you do or have to do.
@@reinermiteibidde1009 And by "reprogram" you don't just mean taking 30 seconds to change the location of your finish cut? Even that old control should have a local edit function. Still, for anyone using a machine less than 33 years old, you'd simply change the diameter offset in the control. Just as fast and far more precise than a manual mill.
the problem with your " rant" is that you have many years experience and know what you are doing and are in a limited market. young people go to these machining colleges where all they teach them is cnc and cadcam and that's all they want to do. button pushers as i have heard many times from machine shop owners. they are not interested in learning a craft. maybe in alaska it's different but manual machining is a dying profession.
Another video full of copium. Is CNC always the answer? No, but neither is manual machining. Half of his arguments are bullshit. You don't have to have the newest version of software to run a machine. All you need is a version that works for you. Programed parts at a shop that was using 10+ year old software. Was it as easy to use as modern software? No. It's post for the machines we had we rock solid and very rarely needed any tweaking. That's why they still used it.
“You got the wrong idea if you think you know it all” 👌
Howee definitely lives in reality. Hard core old school and there is absolutely no substitute for his decades of experience and knowledge. Guy like him is worth his weight in gold nowadays.
I've been at the shop I work for for over 30 years making prototype parts and small quantities of production parts on manual lathes and mills. About 3 years ago the owner got me a Hurco CNC mill and I freaking love it!!! You can do mill work just like on a manual mill just with the controls and the conversational programming is very quick to program. It will also run g&m code programs. I don't mind not having to change out every tool on every part now either. However, I wouldn't know half of what I do now if it wasn't for having done it the old school way for so many years. Love your channel ❤! Please keep them coming 👊
some conversational are great and very fast to make a program. I think I used all 5 fingers to program a Tree CNC mill. My first job after school, luckily they also had one in school so I already new it
I feel that hobbyists like me understand how a good machinist compensates for a bad machine, because at our budget level that's all we have available a lot of times. There's beautiful accurate work coming off of terrible cheap machines in the hobby world. A lot of hobbyists are even improving their old worn out stuff to better than new spec.
Any good resources or channels on hobby lathes.?
I'm right there with ya on that!
In our machine shop, we have a Ward 07 built in 1911 and it was purchased into the company secondhand in 1940.
It produces Vs in larger pulleys, a CNC to do the same swing and has the same plunge cut ability $1, m.
Just the largest V we produce 30 -40 a year to customer specific. Nothing the same OD or Bore.
Totally understand what you are saying.
I used to work with jigs and fixtures on a manual milling machine in my own shop and this was the way with my shop. I did work in a CNC shop when I was older and did programming but I had to be on top of the machine or it would err at times.
I did study precision machining under Germans who came over here in the U.S. under Operation Paperclip. They did superb work but did not have CNC tools. All their work was with jigs and fixtures and so that's the way I machined in my shop.
I really like these CNC vs Manual discussions. This was a really good comparison and consideration of the methods.
17:44 the benefit of this for quick prototyping is there can be 20 people prototyping at the same time on the same $150k CNC. All of the parts can be cut out the same day while only one person is needed to watch the machine.
If the company is doing such quick work, it would be more beneficial to pay for 20 engineers (or ex-machinists) to be prototyping rather than keeping 20 machines running, pay 20 machinists and 20 engineers to make the plans.
Like you said it's all financial - it can make sense for a small shop if they are inventing or have a production contract but probably doesn't make sense for the shop that is only a repair shop
This is the best discussion yet on this topic. There is no one size fits all answer. CNC vs Manual is just an Apples vs Oranges argument. They both have their places, anyone who says one is better than the other is just ignorant. My shop is all manual, not because I don't see a reason to have CNC but rather, I don't like the work CNC is good for. On the other side, almost 50% of my business is from other CNC only shops needing manual machining. There is no comparison, just depends on your market.
Biased video, which is understandable. Pros and cons to both. Real shop needs both, but i know which one i pick everyday, that is CNC.
If you have the correct setup, it can be quick in certain circumstances, most of them to be fair. Running one while preparing and programing the next. If you have batch work more then ten, one man is not held up at one machine doing one job, he can run multiple machines. Simple
A machine can be running while I'm eating French toast 😊
Is your machine running while you eat French toast?
Thanks for making all this great content I'm a hobby shop machinist and I find great value in your content
I work in a swiss CNC machine shop. I made a fixture for checking a feature many thought couldn't be checked. All on the manual mill of course.
The problem with old CNC controls is that they are so bad that programming them is just like pulling your hair out. Haas did the world a huge favor in making a control that a lot of people warm right up to. It's not the end-all be-all but it's a damn sight better than 25 year old Fanucs.
Agreed! As someone who has to use a 25 year old Fanuc I can assure you that I would have quit my job ages ago if I hadn't discovered Cimco Edit, which allows me to program on a laptop and upload the program to the controller.
I ran an old Fanuc OM for a few years. 1988 machine. Line process time was slow, forget deccel override. Mirror image of a tool path/macro was weird, and you had to return to the origin every time you changed the coordinate system. And nothing visible on the screen when running from remote. We never hand coded from that little console that would suck.
even compared to modern Fanucs, the introduction of Manual Guide on Fanuc was a great leap forward for programming on the control, right now we are in process of setting up a dual spindle dual turret Takisawa lathe for large production runs and what nobody realized until the machine was delivered, that there is no manual guide... Programming has to be done via raw G-code... But luckily for us, we can simply punch in the program on any other fanuc lathe and let the machine convert it to raw g-code.
Another problem with old controls is that you can make the same part often twice as fast on a modern machine without changing feeds and speeds, just by higher rapids, faster tool changes and accels...
Great to watch your content as it bringings back memories of working in a shop that had both Manual and CNC. Lot’s has changed and every shop is different with the type of work it does. In my shop we used both and it was hard to beat a manual mill or lathe for certain operations. Reminds me a saying “Horses for Courses”.
Excellent points. There are so many ways to do something. Having a flexible thought process is a very valuable thing.
So you had 300 parts at 8min/part knowing you could cut half the time if you spent what, maybe a half day of setup? That’s on you, not the machine.
You are absoluely right - ot's not the mchines; it's the people and what they can do!
Love everything about tis whole dialogue!
Wow, the knowledge this gentleman goes beyond machine work.
plenty of cnc's don't have enclosures . i got one vertical machine center with 40 x80 inch travel with no enclosure. so that 10 foot shaft would fit fine on that. i also have 5 haas vf4ss machines that are used for secondary operations on fiberglass parts we mold. each machine does 170 cycle/ shift for 3 shifts 5 days. they are all older machines around 2006 because they are cheap , fast , accurate enough have linear ways which are better when you can't use coolant and have fiberglass dust, and haas has great local service which is important when you are in a small town.
another reason for cnc is you can cut shapes you can't do manual like make steel molds in 3d.
My dad was a machinist, was for 68 years. You and him are very much alike. We would talk for hours almost every day. I could listen to you share forever.
You are extremely inspiring in your thought process and it's sadly being lost to time and my sad excuse of a generation keep up the great work and videos
So you're a sad excuse? Because you can't know enough people from your generation to say it's sad as a whole. what you see and hear is a grain of sand to all that's happening on this rock. There's plenty of people from all generations that are absolute genius.
The 2 job shops I worked at in the mid 90’s had mostly manual machines. One only had 1 I think it was a Mazak I say I think cause I never used it. The other had 3 a Herco which was used all the time and a mill like you have there and 1 lathe. All of the manual machines were always used and were the backbone.
The screw shop I worked at had no cnc. It had over 20 Brown & Sharpe clinkers, the dungeon had 10 really old Brown & Sharpes mostly for tiny screws, 6 six spindle Wickmans, a Wizzer, more than a few manual turret lathes and an old Cincinnati centerless grinder all being used everyday. The heat generated from the machines kept us warm in the winter which was central Jersey.
You hit the nail on the head with your comments here my friend. I am the equipment manager at a rigging company in Massachusetts. I constantly hear it's my fault if a piece of equipment does not do what the operator wants it to. It's the owners fault for not purchasing a newer piece of equipment to do a different task, When any experienced and qualified operator can take that same piece of equipment, and produce excellent results. It's easy to make excuses but actually doing the work and learning the task and doing it correctly. That's where the real value is.
no way! I'm a machinist / millwright that has been considering work in the yukon and alaska but couldn't really find work, or at least work that would accept someone that would need to move from southern ontario.
What kind of wrok do you typically get? Mining, Ship and boat repairs? I also will thank you for tidbits from such an experienced machinist, I am only 31
An expert cnc operator can run a bunch of machines. An ordinary tradesman can run one machine. Takes a very skillful tradesman to run manual machines and be quick and accurate. DRO's and quick change tool posts with lots of holders is a very good compromise.
Love the part where u said "if ur a machinist, u really should do whatever it takes with what you're given, to do the best you can." Spot on. Love ur videos man, keep up the good work.
This all depends on how you think. If you find thinking in conversational Cnc language easy then it's easy and fast.
If you think in manual machining it won't be faster.
also if you think in 3k rpm spindle, it wont be fast... modern spindles and modern tooling truly is amazing, if you know how to maximize your MRR...
@@dubi127 just feels like someone trying to justify manual machining to themselves/ a bit desperate
@@MT_T991 to me it feels more like someone who has life-long experience on manual machines and only a very limited knowledge/experience with modern CNCs, as i said in a comment on his previous video, there still are applications where manual machine is faster, but those are few and far between, CNC mills can do much more with limited tooling, you dont need a tool specific for every job. Also there are edgecases where manual machine is simply more economical, lets say you are turning 40inch pulleys twice a year, not really viable to buy a cnc lathe for that specific task, but if you know you are doing it somewhat often, you should consider buying a VTL...
I sorely wish I had known about your shop in 2005. I was working at a machine shop in Anchorage and couldnt hack city life anymore. Moved back to Minnesota. I look forward to watching these videos.
What a great video, stuff I think about all the time in everyday life, but I don’t know if it has ever been articulated as well as you did in this video. I could comment on and on for hours about stuff that you touched on but the classic example 1920s screw machine still spitting out screws.-It never needed a software update, no computer boards,in a 100 years, if you needed a part, you can make it. I am old-school too, and I have been through this my whole life too, with home computers with cell phones, with trucks and equipment, the computer age to put it simply, here today, gone tomorrow, what I mean by that is you have something cutting edge today, five years down the line it’s obsolete and there is no more computer support for that machine anymore. Modern day computer engineers are going to completely ruin this country, all technology has done in my life in the trucking industry has done is to drive up the cost of equipment so high you can’t afford to buy anything anymore, and their technology now is causing the majority of the problems on the equipment. Again great video- my rant is over also. lol
54 years in a manual shop. Started with a VICA program in High School at 14. Hired in to a machine shop at a Potash mine as a journeyman in 1974. I have yet to push a green button on a CNC. I have spent my entire career in the mining industry as a machinist. Some of the work is rocky-stone axe work. For instance, we had a bearing lose lubrication on a big Tyrock screen and wear a deep groove in the shaft. The groove was 1/4" deep all the way around the bearing fit. It was a multi-shift job to change the shaft. My boss had me build a sleeve for the shaft and then split it axially. They then put a new bearing in place and pounded the sleeve under it. Then they welded the sleeve on the accessible ends and the welding pulled the sleeve tight against the bearing bore. I told the boss that i would give it a lifespan of 24 hours. It ended up lasting over 3 years. Never would have believed it possible.
I believe that, with the proper fixturing, I can beat a CNC in speed. However, when the phone rings the machine stops. Likewise when the end of the day rolls around or nature calls. There are places for a CNC, but not in any of the places I have ever worked.
Anyway, I work in my shop at home now that I have retired. I make parts all winter so I can spend my summers in Seward. If I get up Fairbanks way I'll stop in. Thanks for the thoughts on the practical aspects of manual machining.
in short, the 7 most expensive words in any industry, "this is how we've always done it"
my first job had wire EDMs and manual machines, we had one vf2 that didn't get much use.
but i did like the proto mills them worked pretty good for between cnc and a Bridgeport.
we also had surface ganders, most of our work flow was mill to shape with holes,
heat treat, then some grinding to shape then wire for the complex shape.
Somtimes i get burned out at the lathe, so i sit down watch a video or somthing, clear my head and get back to it. But im also on my own time making parts for myself.
You are a great Guy!
The CNC Bridgeport I knew of had a total mind of its own
Sad to see a working tool thrown out in the artic weather.
It's to bad you don't have someone efficient with CNC's, they would really save you lots of time/labor.
"Beware the man with only one rifle because he knows how to use it." This applies to pretty much anything including machine tools.
A lot of the reasons you are using such as tools available for the machine tools are BS because the thought process and set up is essentially the same for CNC or manual.
I have both, are jobs that simply make more sense on one machine or the other. I interchange tools between machines and my doors open up on the CNC so I can put a 10' piece in it, the deciding factor is whether or not I want a 10' piece flailing around with a mind of it's own or not.
In most cases it is a question of can I make the piece faster or more accurate with the added programming time on the CNC vs Manual, there are a lot of really good CNC guys who can and do.
For me I like to be able to feel a cut on a manual can be the deciding factor but if there are a lot of compound curves etc it is CNC without question.
Amazing stories
For the bulk of what you do, a CNC has no real advantage aside from the fact that a CNC has a great DRO and does patterns like bolt hole circles or things like cams easily. If you are a small one or two machine type of shop, the advantage to a CNC is that you can do one off jobs and small productions. As you are saying, there is no one size fits all machine.
Can you do a video on the limitations of a mill drill vs an actual mill?
I met *one* person in my career who was as comfortable using a CNC or a Bridgeport. He could enter gcode in real time as easily and quickly as anyone I've ever seen run a manual machine. Even just decking off a plate or cleaning an edge. It's certainly unusual and special but not impossible!
The thing that disappoints me most is that CNC guys tend to treat manual equipment like obsolete junk that's beneath their expertise. The milling centers are all running to tenths, but the Bridgeport has .300 of backlash in both axes and the knee only goes up.
What program/controls are used on those dinosaurs?
Love it!
I have an old 1948 monarch lathe with a 12’ between centers, war spec nearly brand new. I run it three times a year so I don’t have to outsource oversize parts. It pays for itself each time I turn the switch on. No payments.
I'm a manual machinist in a job shop with both manual and CNC. I work primarily for the press repair dept. where we tear down and rebuild large punch presses and other large industrial machinery. Many one-of's come to me, repairs to shafts or bushings, chasing damaged threads, welding or metalizing damaged bearing journals . In our shop it is far more economical in time and money to do this work manually. I may have to duplicate a part for which we have no drawings, and where we may actually change bearing/bushings fits by turning down damaged journals or bores to clean metal and then make appropriately resized parts in order to buy an old machine some new life. This is very often better than having the CNC dept. stop high paying production work to fit in a single job when I could easily do the entire job (including welding/metalizing) in a single machine without ever having or producing a working drawing. The CNC's are making money in the meantime doing what they do best.
Within the size range is the key, what happens when they get the bright idea to put an extension on a small CNC HAAS T1 lathe to turn a large taper on 5.5" diameter hot roll .25" wall 5 foot long!
I am a nervous wreck because they bought it and intend on doing it. It only has a 3' bed, less the chuck and tailstock, they will need to attach about a 3' modified extention minimum and a wonky huge live center.
Re phones, almost all of my reference books like machinwry's handbook (for the routine stuff anyway ) has been replaced by two phone apps. Very handy.
Amazing isn't it. I use my ph for computing while working and going trig. All manual stuff.
It's nice to have communicate with home for pc of mind
I really like listening to this Man, seams to intelligent and careful with money
We make are money in our shop with CNC but still have a manual lathe and manual mill for certain things and small jobs when the others are busy. I can run 3 machines doing high quantity work and still play on my phone and talk to customers. Making good money. I don't think I'm cut out to be cranking handles all day long working on just one machine. Also hard to make a living here doing that.
You have a dream shop .You have everything. You're out there in Norman's land. Sometimes, it sounds like you are I a lowpoint of business at the moment. I notice you debate your self. More power to you out there in the cold. Keep up the good info. What's the next video. By the time you getter all paned out on cnc the work drys up
I feel like people do the same thing here as they do in other areas like automobiles....oh everyone should buy an electric car...no...right now they have a place and a use case....not for everyone not all the time for every task...you wouldn't buy a 40,000 dollar medium duty truck used to haul 5 loads of firewood a year...it's just not the right tool for the job...this applies to most things...you have a really nice lathe that you care for and spent good money on when the job calls for it...if you need to do an emergency job on a crooked rusty spare part that's been in the woods that requires you to cut an inch off the machine for clearance to make it happen you have a cheap machine to use for that, it can absolutely make you 10 times what the machine cost cause new part is unobtainable or needed right now, high priority need it now problems pay accordingly to be solved...as he said a 1000 dollar machine was modified used to make the customer happy and make the business much more money and the machine is still worth as much or more now that you even have the extra flexibility ...and a worn out loose machine just requires an operator that's worth what he's paid and a little extra care and attention to detail to make a quality part...wouldn't wear rare expensive shoes to work in the rain...at the end of the day they are tools and destroying a 1k machine to make 10k is a good idea...if you have work that lends itself to the cnc's abilities great...if not why have the money and space tied up...again wouldn't buy an 18 wheeler to haul 5 loads of firewood a year...right tools for the job and such...use your brain...spend less make more live well...
I wish I could grind chip breakers like the old guy Stan I worked with when I first started. He never showed be, I tried to copy some of his bits I still have in the drawer but I could never get them to work like his. I’m sure the cut depth and feed has a lot to do with it. That “feel” you have with manual machines.
You should do a show on the lost art of hand tool grinding. There are a lot of different ways to grind a drill. There are a lot of ways to grind a cutting tool. Explain the geometry of a tool sharpened for brass as compared to cast iron or SS.
Another show on how do you make a hole. Which depends on what the hole will be used for.
Another show on what a huge improvement geometric tolerancing was.
I concur! I learned how to use a lathe by watching an old timer in my shop, and he explained the cutter to me by showing me how to grind the correct surfaces into a blank on a pedestal grinder. When I bought my lathe I got a pack of blanks and made pretty much all the tools I use, and everyone who sees my shop is surprised I'm not using carbide inserts and asks why I'd ever want to do such a thing.
If the choice is to spend money and wait for a specialized tool or walk over to the grinder and make it, it's an easy decision.
I don't disagree with anything you have said, It really boils down to every shop has to make their own decisions based on how much footprint their shop has, and what kind of work they do. I have worked in the R&D aerospace industry for almost 10 years now, and it would be impossible for us to make the parts we make, in the footprint we occupy with manual machines. We run lots of ceramic cutters, wire EDM's etc, in inconel, renee etc, and most of the parts have complex geometry. We still keep a few manual bridgeports and lathes, but they are almost always relegated to making parts for shop use, its very rare for them to send parts out the door.
I miss running manual machines sometimes, but with our workload they just aren't practical
We've come a long way from covered wagons to the cars of today. There will always be some form of manual machining, no doubt. Not sure when the last time you actually used a cnc. The batteries, software doesn't go bad or need updating that often.
Ya I learned mostly that I don’t know it all
Last sentence of the video is the absolute truth. Right back to ancient Greek philosophy, at first you have to realize how much you dont know to really start learning. I can say about myself, that i am pretty competent machinist, 99% of the time CNC, always learning new things, new processes, trying new tooling, i like to say that i dont know the phrase "thats not possible". But i have to admit, Titans of CNC have somewhat opened my eyes on how to push the trade further, make parts faster and make them right. Every machinists demise is when he stops learning...
Let's just say you double or triple your value as a CNC machinist if you know and understand manual machining and the parameters involved.
This chap is real, I just hope Rick makes his breakfast the way he wants it.
Controlling your swarf on a cnc is what separates the men from the boys. You need to know how to push a chip off so it can run lights out
It's also worth pointing out that if you are watching the machine run then you *do* have the option of pushing the red button and cutting chips off then pushing the green button and let it continue. You shouldn't have to do that, but you *can*.
Does your insurance company know you are running industrial machinery without human supervision?
@@rok1475 And just who is this machinery going to hurt if there is nobody nearby?
The insurance company doesn't care if you wreck your tooling. I *have* wrecked tooling when the coolant channel clogged during a run, and that cost something like $250 to replace (which was annoying) but that was after hundreds of hours of running without supervision. How much would hundreds of hours of supervision have cost? The people putting stock in the machine have no experience. They are just people who are working elsewhere in the plant. They drop by every 45 minutes to pull out parts and chips and to put in a new piece of material, so every hour I get 50 more good parts, and if anything is wrong (out of spec size or bad surface finish, for example) then the machine stays off until I am in the next day to adjust the wear offset or sort out the coolant or whatever.
I mentioned before that I was quoted $3 each for these parts. That's $30,000 for 10,000 of them, or I can buy the material pre-cut to 4' lengths for $1500 and have a person with relatively light duties spend some of their time changing parts. It's not a difficult decision economically. $30,000 vs. $1,500 is pretty significant.
The only reason I takes 45 minutes to make 50 parts is because I am single-pointing the parts. If I was to get custom tooling made I could make the parts in seconds, but then I can't make changes without having the tooling modified (I don't have the equipment to make the tooling). For us, the way we do it is by far the most reasonable, and the insurance company couldn't care less.
@@rok1475 it's cnc. It's made to be run automatically
The new controls are real easy to program conversational. That old lathe you talk about innacurracy the new cnc controls will compensate for if you colluminate the correction in the control. Its actually harder to find a manual machinist than a cnc machinist. Not alot of what your saying applies today. It used to be not anymore.
I enjoy using a Bridgeport ez trac.
The other point is, cnc machines can cost a lot more to operate electricity wise than a manual machine. If your electric costs are expensive, you will notice a cnc machine can really eat up the kilowatts.
👏👏👏
About half my carear was with manual and the later with cnc as mostly toolmaker work so very small quantities say 1 to a dozen parts.
There are plenty of times a cnc doesn't make sense and manual is faster.
There's programming time and set up time to factor and the first piece takes some dialing in.
I ran a toolmakers version of that machine shown 5 axis but always had a bridgeport handy for some of my work.
Laguns were stronger and more accurate then bridgeports.
My older Maho was conversational which blows away Fanuc and it's a shame all machines aren't conversational.
I ran fanuc later for many years and was very proficient but give me a conversational any day.
Haas fanuc was far superior then the other fanucs (but the machines were lighter duty )but still you would think by now everyone would agree on one type of programming for all machines.
We had cnc surface grinders in one shop that were more of a pain to use then conventional ones.
CNC isn't always the answer.
I agree with you 100%. Manual machines are underrated and still very valuable. One thing that CNC also does is it doesn't require a skilled machinist to operate. It takes a lot of time to train a machinist plus time on the jobs to become proficient. CNCs require an operator, programmer and engineer. however, the programmer and engineer can do multiple machines. A added advantage is for repeat jobs, you already have the engineering and programing work done.
11:37 what is a chasing head?
Slang term for any production thread cutting die holding device.
If you’re manufacturing product I don’t see how you’d get the same results without a CNC. If you’re working on stuff that is already manufactured such as doing repairs or really anything that isn’t the same job over and over you don’t NEED it. As a generalization of course.
Dream a little dream with me 🤣
In machine shops down here in the states in my area it’s now common for so many people to say “just do it on one of the CNC machines.” Or “just draw it up in MasterCam and run it.” I’ve had to prove to them that sometimes manual is faster. I do agree 100% that you can’t know everything. All the senior guys I’ve worked with have taught me so many different ways of doing things. It’s one of the many reasons I love the trade.
i think this isn't a cnc vs manual machine video, this is a market and location video. If your in a location where all of your work is large shafts and they are relatively simple then why get a cnc. if your doing a lot of repair work why get a cnc. I would put forward the point you buy the right machine for the job. it can be manual or cnc. At the end of the day the business that makes money stays open and if that means you can stay open running manual machines, great. But if your struggling to get work because the competition can do it faster and cheaper then it might be time to rethink your business strategy.
You have to much dust on machine
Try repairing anything with a CNC and you're out of business...simple conversational cnc lathe is another story
cnc is cool cause you have ballscrews, so if you treat it like a manual you can still do some cool stuff, not even counting the crazy profiles and what not, However most manuals can do things that CNC's just can't do. As for who's on the hook to make good parts, the guy setting it up AND the guy running production, everyone else in the chain is there just to make sure those folks are doing their job correctly.
Nobody ever seems to talk about how difficult it is to make an accurate fit in a cnc machine (especially a mill). Good luck hitting a few microns if you don't have a boring head and need to rewrite your program for every adjustment.
Have you ever heard of wear offsets?
@@tbdcreations5370 Many older controls don't have this feature or they hide it in another menu.
@@reinermiteibidde1009 *Some* very old controls don't have offsets for milling tools. 30+ years ago. My point is reprogramming to cut to final size is not something you do or have to do.
@@tbdcreations5370 It's exactly what i have to do. Open the door, measure, reprogram, cut and remeasure. I work on 1990s Mahos.
@@reinermiteibidde1009 And by "reprogram" you don't just mean taking 30 seconds to change the location of your finish cut? Even that old control should have a local edit function.
Still, for anyone using a machine less than 33 years old, you'd simply change the diameter offset in the control. Just as fast and far more precise than a manual mill.
Sounds more like you're lacking true talent to leverage good software. Also sounds like you're so stubborn that they wouldn't come knocking, anyway.
the problem with your " rant" is that you have many years experience and know what you are doing and are in a limited market. young people go to these machining colleges where all they teach them is cnc and cadcam and that's all they want to do. button pushers as i have heard many times from machine shop owners. they are not interested in learning a craft. maybe in alaska it's different but manual machining is a dying profession.
Another video full of copium. Is CNC always the answer? No, but neither is manual machining. Half of his arguments are bullshit. You don't have to have the newest version of software to run a machine. All you need is a version that works for you. Programed parts at a shop that was using 10+ year old software. Was it as easy to use as modern software? No. It's post for the machines we had we rock solid and very rarely needed any tweaking. That's why they still used it.
It's real easy to change tools but I understand I use a manual and I use a cnc. It depends what the job is and what I need to happen.