Totally understand 150's and 153's being replaced in Wales, as they are very old now and only really appropriate for Valley line work. However, removing the 158's and 175's is premature and unnecessary, as they are still a good age (especially 175) and definitely still have a role to play.
@@bigdunc228 it's kind of mind boggling to think they may be scrapped instead of cascaded elsewhere to replace older 150,153,158's etc on other parts of the network.
You haven't mentioned the awful announcements. I travelled from Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog - a 75 minute journey - on one of these units and had to endure 66 automated announcements - half in Welsh and half in English. Do we really need to be thanked for travelling by TfW or reminded to take our luggage away. It's just very annoying
@@englishjona6458 The OP is objecting to being repeatedly "thanked" for using TfW (just insincere verbiage) and reminded not to forget their luggage (well, duh). Not about actually useful announcements like the next station.
@@englishjona6458 visit Switzerland where the trains often have messages given in 3 or even 4 languages including details of onward connections and there's still less announcements compared to the UK and no "see it say it sort it" or constant reminders to not forget your luggage!
@@Meengineer100 Indeed! I recently posted a film on here about Ardrossan, in which I point out that the platform announcement at both Ardrossan Town and Ardrossan Harbour stations tell you to buy a ticket before boarding the train, whereas the signs on the stations tell you to buy a ticket from the conductor on the train! Have a look at my film. th-cam.com/video/GUI2qJfiiLk/w-d-xo.html
I managed to grab one of these on their first day on Liverpool runs, By complete accident (After TPE Cancelled a service, because of course) and honestly, I think they're at least decent. The seats originally were going to actually be the exact same design as the IET, but TFW paid CAF over £1,000,000 to swap the seats to these ones, which are definitely at least somewhat a upgrade honestly. The giant galley will apparently allow hot food to be served when catering restarts, as it contains a microwave, although I'm not sure how useful it would actually be on those extra busy regional services where said catering is meant to be in operation, but I suppose time will tell. You are right though, they definitely suit replacing 150s over 175s
Strange how they thought the space taken up was justified in order to (hopefully at some point) offer hot food rather than a second toilet.... Very strange priorities there. You get the feeling that all these decisions are made be people who know nothing about the railways and who never travel by train.
I'm a bit torn on the galley - I like the idea of onboard catering but I seriously question how often it will be viable given how crowded parts of these trains route plus staffing issues. Generally, I think the Class 197s would be massively improved if they had an extra carriage each (so the two carriage sets become threes and the threes become fours).
It was never going to match the 175 in terms of passenger experience. However if I get off a 507/8 from Liverpool onto a 197 at Chester towards Llandudno, and it's worse, then that'll be a problem.
The 197's look nice on the outside and inside but I feel they aren't long enough for some of the services they will be operating on ie Manchester to South Wales. Also that cabinet thing I've heard is suppose to be where food hot or cold is stored for the trolley services.
The new Transport for Wales Class 197 is a nice addition to the fleet, with modern amenities and comfortable seating. However, when it comes to intercity travel and the specific route of Manchester to Llandudno Junction, I believe the Class 175 is the better option. The Class 175 offers more spacious seating and a smoother ride, making it a more enjoyable experience for passengers. Additionally, the Class 175 would be a great transfer option for Northern or another operator, as it is equipped with the necessary amenities and features to make the transition seamless. One aspect of the Manchester to Llandudno Junction route that I particularly appreciate is the announcements. They are clear and informative, keeping passengers informed throughout the journey. Overall, great video as always, thanks for sharing the details of the Class 197 and Class 175 trains.
"More spacious seating" - no, because on the 175s chances are that you have to stand! Especially on South Wales to Manchester! I stopped going that way and went via Birmingham instead, XC was from Newport to Birmingham considerably quieter than TFW from Newport to Crewe. (The destination in my case was Preston.)
@@seprishere '175s chances are that you have to stand! Especially on South Wales to Manchester!' - whilst I can come to agree with you on that; in some ways, the 175 do still have a advantage to comfort of seats and i was specifically noting Manchester Airport to Llandudno Junction which is a considerably quieter route than the SW route.. I respect your opinion.
It is unlikely that Northern would take over a fleet like the 175s as they don't have any suitable routes. And the end doors make them slow loading/unloading like the 158s
@@peterheppenstall654 They used to be TPE and Northern did take some TPE routes. I would have thought they'd work on Blackpool to York? Heck, Northern at one point took 180s on Blackpool to Manchester despite their lack of appropriateness because of ONE feature - they had five coaches.
Any replacement of the 158s and 175s needs to be a step above. The 195s however seem to be a class below, not configured as long-distance express DMUs. Like a replacing an E-Class Benz with a brand new C-Class of the following generation.
I'm not surprised that the 197s have rubbish seats. Up in Auckland they've got CAF-built electric units running commuter services and they've got similarly rock-hard seats. Another thing I don't understand is why the units only have one toilet regardless of whether it's a 2 or 3-car set (it appears that TfW and CAF didn't do much market research when developing these things).
The 197s have 1 toilet per 2 car set and 2 toilets per 3 car set. The rationale being they'll usually be used in multiple so there'll usually be more than 1 toilet on the train. So in this video's case, for example, there were 2 units coupled together so there's 2 toilets on the train altogether. Toilets also take up space, especially PRM compliant ones, so there has to be a reasonable balance somewhere between making sure there's enough seating capacity on board and making sure the facilities are PRM compliant.
I’ll be honest I don’t think TFW needed new trains they just need better management Like it’s pretty obvious a pair of 153s is not suitable for a Holyhead to Cardiff service
They needed more trains, since the Pacers were withdrawn, the 150s need eventual replacement, the 170s are needed by EMR, and TFW wants to run more services than before
@@kuzatheaviator Scotrail linked 153s to 156s. Those might eventually be available but I think it would be better to just get a couple more 197s or something
Great video! I rode one of these from Runcorn Central to Liverpool South Parkway and then the same unit to Chester. I felt that while they where sufficient for that journey they definitely weren't a 'premier' train. Shame about the screens on your journey, they worked fine for me
Your review does make sense and reveal plenty of details that I didn't notice before. Meanwhile, I'd add that Civity diesel trains do keep off the engine revving noise from the inside very well compared to TfW's past fleet i.e. 175.
It seems to me the people complaining the most about these trains are "train fans" who seem to hate anything modern. I much rather these trains to the ones they're replacing, and the Stadler FLIRT trains that are also joining the fleet are even better.
I think they’re an improvement to a lot of the trains they’re replacing (i.e. the 153s and 150s), but they’re nowhere near as good as a 158 or 175. If they ran them on local routes within Wales, I wouldn’t have an issue - but it’s the fact TfW are choosing to run them on the Manchester/Holyhead to Cardiff and NWC routes that annoys me, when they clearly aren’t suited for that type of work.
I agree! and I think the Class 197 is just as comfortable as the Class 175! and I think it's fine for routes like Manchester Airport to Llandudno! and to add to that, they can make a 5 car set for Cardiff services!
CAF have also donated £150k to the Conservative party since November 2018 and it's not the first time this government has bought subpar junk from companies who donate to them
i call transport for wales trains f****d wales has they are a s**t service i know some drivers can not wait to get out of them i perfer travelling on GWR in south wales that is what you get when labour run the railways
I dunno why they have pinned these as an upgrade for express services. Surely the 231 fleet would be the replacement type for 175s while these replace 150 and 153 fleets. The 158 is the hard act to follow as they are bullet proof and happy doing all stops or long 90mph sections.
Nice review. Fully appreciate the points made. Looks as if TFW have got it 50-60% right. Another toilet and a bit more attention to detail would help. Regards Andrew Walley.
It’s a shame that we are stuck with these CAF trains as the Northern ones you mentioned are not great. It’s a shame they did not use the FLIRT family of trains as they do seem much better.
In early December, I went from Llandudno to Blaenau and back on the new 197. Unfortunately, they are not as good for disabled people in wheelchairs as the old ones, and as I will be travelling on the North Wales line soon I will be on them again instead of the 175s. No table in the wheelchair space, so nowhere to put hot drinks, and therefore not safe as there is a risk of scalding, and nowhere to put a laptop although there are power points. All able-bodied passengers get a table, mainly a fold-down airline-style type. Why are disabled passengers treated in this inferior way? Are wheelchair users not supposed to have hot drinks? I have written to TfW Customer Services a month ago about my safety concerns and still awaiting an answer. I am never ceased to be amazed at how little progress has been made with the design of wheelchair ramps on new trains. Unbelievably the 197 requires a two part ramp, a normal looking ramp with an extra part fitted at the top. The top part has to be fitted for safety reasons apparently, but on one of my journeys it was forgotten and I exited safely. Progress!!!??? I get the impression that ramps are an after-thought in the design stage. Locating any ramp seems hit and miss. Sometimes the lugs are located first time. Other times it’s a struggle. I feel sorry for the conductors who deal with this monstrosity, especially in wet conditions.
Sadly many of our railway companies seem all too willing to spend our hard-earned money with overseas train manufacturers. We, the fare payers, seem to have no choice in the matter. Of course it's good that CAF final assembly is done in Newport, but we need more than 'screwdriver factories' in the UK if we're going to flourish economically.
There is only one UK train manufacturer. If they don't have the capacity to build trains for every operator then what else can be done. Wave a magic wand?
@@rikkilamb True enough. No magic wands,, but we do need to ensure we place orders with the likes of Bombardier, Siemens, CAF, Hitachi and Alsthom on the basis of agreed levels of UK content if we're ever going to sort out our trade deficit and build sufficient quality jobs across the UK's regions.
i kind of get the idea to replace everything, end of the day it makes repairs and servicing cheaper, rather having to worry about 4 different designs. yes 150s and 153s are different. ive tried the northern 195 units, i thought were ok and a good replacement for the 142 pacers, but im not sure i would want to be several hours on one. as like all modern trains, the seats are like ironing boards from poundstretchers !! i think northern are interested in the 150 units and again northern and east midlands for the 158s as both already have these units. the 153s will go as apparently suffering with corrosion and the narrow doors. the 175s are all with tfw, so for now i think they will stay and hopefully a good use found for them, as many passengers and railfolk like them.
nah tfw said theyre getting rid of the 175s, so unless they change their mind last minute the 175s will be gone by next year. likely to be scrapped as theyre not terribly reliable, shame really cos theyre bloody good trains when they work
The Great Northern Railway, The LNWR & Thameslink are running trains built by Siemans while Greater Anglia (Great Eastern Railway) is running trains from Stadtler & Bombardier. Certainly it's a far cry when we built trains such as the 317s & the 307s before them.
Is this a review of the 197 or a Travelog from MIA to Chester?. Yes the 197s are rough over Chat Moss like almost every other type of train. There was comments about the Monitors not showing the correct information but that is the same with most new stock - it takes time to tweak and work correctly.
Having new trains will not alter the fact that TFW are a substandard and useless service , I travel between Machynlleth and Birmingham International regularly to catch flights to Spain , the last 6 times I have never arrived at the airport station directly , instead I have had to change 2 and sometimes 4 times to arrive at my destination, appalling service and have had refunds on every occasion , god knows how this Welsh Government run sham of a transport system makes any money
They seem like they're still a work in progress, hopefully some of the issues are ironed out soon I haven't yet been on one of these, my usual Manchester - Swansea route hasn't seen these units yet (though I guess may soon?) and have almost exclusively been class 175s, which I quite like
Well Im fed up with Transport for Wales using Class 150 ( Local trains) on the Manchester to Swansea and Beyond services, every time I travel from Scotland on a decent Pendolino Service from Avanti West Coast I dread coming into Crewe, Waiting on Platforn 5 for what I call a Cattle-Wagon class 150 unit to come from the right hand line from Manchester Direction., Crewe Station Packed with Passengers around 5pm and a 2 Car unit strolls in, its so depressive even seeing a Class 150 let alone spending the next 4 hours travelling on it, from April I now travel back to Wales via Birmingham New Street / Bristol Parkway at least I get a comfortable ride back home. Yes they have these new units but when on earth are they going to use them on this main line Manchester to West Wales Service, most of these Class 197 units are stored in a siding in Crewe to this day, TFW are just as bad as Arriva Trains Wales when they ran this Rail service.
Ive yet to go on these units but it does seem to have been not great reviews by many so far..just why modern trains seem to be so disappointing im not sure maybe like as they run the railways in general its done the wrong way round with passenger being the last beneficial. for the record The 175's also came into service dogged by many reliability issues so too early to judge the new units on that front but that ride quality looked naff! my fav unit is still the 175 by a long way ..smooth running and comfortable..although when they wasnt overcrowded! anther epic TFW issue that was
Got to be better than the two car 153 set I travelled on from Manchester Piccadilly to Newport this week. Good that it had a refreshment trolley, but there were no seatback tables or power points! Unacceptable. I have complained to Tfw.
The vestibule doors were isolated open! Seems like the traincrew are still getting used to the new trains, but I dread to think what will happen when they start using the ETCS fitted ones!
We have Desiro's in Belgium. Same nonsense. Economy is shrinking and this is how you see it. They save money on everything. These new trains with rubbish seats and only one toilet that automatically closes itself when the water runs out is basically a tin can on rails.
Desiros are considered better than CAF in the UK. Though we don't have auto closing loo doors. But we do have common people who leave toilet doors open 🙄
If I remember correctly WHSmith said they have to charge so much because NR charge them so much rent, but NR said they don't charge too much, and it's WHSmith's fault.
To be honest not a big fan of these units after several trips on the these the class 231 units are far better than these 197s the 197 are a poor replacement for the 175 sets
@@andrewreynolds4949 Connex had reliability issues with the earlier 375s more than 20 years ago but they were trying to replace trains that's been in service since the 1950s & designed in the 1930s.
158s are starting to look tired and look out of place with these new trains the 175s still have a place and could transfer to northern rail they would replace 158s but you got to admit wonderfully British built multiple unit top speed 90MPH which will be beasts in preservation.
no idea where the 175's will go,...i love these units found them smooth and comfortable albeit sadly usually way overcrowded as they used 2 car formats petty much which was daft..
Certainly think that the 158s have some life in them yet, or certainly hope they do. Certainly the TFW ones they have done a great job of Refurbing them. 175s have some rust issues apparently. Just wonder what is going to go over the HOW line as the stock options there are limited
I noticed you didn’t comment on the black and yellow tape on either side of the door. Personally I wonder is this really necessary? Are people that stupid? They don’t realise that two doors go apart?
oh god no those monstrosities cannot replace the amazing 158 (my fav train) and the 175 (pretty nice train) thanks for the vid ill have to try catch a 158 or 175 there asap (i prob cant though :( sad)
I feel like they've missed the point with these. I frequently see these come in two carriages from Manchester. On the Marches line it should be a minimum of 4 carriages
The Wales and Boarders rail franchise has been starved of investment for years. Let’s celebrate these new units entering service - The first new trains since 175s more than 25 years ago! These units are proven at Northern and West Midlands provide versatility to the fleet and will bring synergy in terms of optimised supply chain for fleet maintenance. They are an absolute step change in passenger usability and comfort over the 158, 150 and 153 units and we should celebrate their arrival. 158s and 175s are notoriously unreliable causing short formation trains the entire fleet of 175s had to be withdrawn due to an engine bay fire issue. North Wales transport infrastructure has been starved of investment for decades please lets get behind what TFW and celebrate the introduction of these new trains , help them get into service quickly and allow them to get over the teething problems and allow staff to get familiar with the systems and their everyday operation.
It seems like a waste replacing the 175s with brand new DMUs when they are little over 20 years old, when they will have to be replaced anyway in the 2030s for electrification mandates. No wonder fares are going up so much when the lifespan is getting shorter, same with the 365s, 332s and 323s which were all electric and could have been used beyond the electric requirement whenever that comes in to force. There is also the replacement of the 390s which are not even 20 years old but will be replaced by Hitachi units. CAF also seem to have a lower reputation for reliability compared with Bombardier, Alstom, Stadler and Siemens. Not sure about Hitachi though, I seem to have heard mixed opinions from different people about them.
I don't think seats with little room are a CAF feature. Most of these descisions are down to the train operating company. With regards to noise. Its impossible to not have some running sound in most trains/busses/ cars. These are actually really tame in comparison to older DMUs Their suspension seems a bit shuddery but not that serious. Most modern trains are shuddery unfortunately
As someone who lives in wales and commutes by trains across the country daily TFW is shocking. The valley lines are the only reliable service in the country and it spends most of the year closed for repairs
There’s 2 toilets on a 3 car, and that big catering box, what I’ve been told was it was put in by the Spanish, they insisted and then quoted TfW 1 million to take it out of each unit.
@@matthewandrewpalmer possibly , I’m not totally sure of the reason but it’s what I was told when training on them. Got insisted to have them then turns out the trolley doesn’t fit so now have to get new trolleys 🙄. They’re really great trains but there’s a handful of things on it you look at it and go “was they thinking with their arse as they put it together”
@@LiamHollowayvery interesting. I did hear about the trolley size issue, I found that rather comical. The seats in particular are disappointing but they should be good. They make a huge difference when they run in 5 car formations along the Marches, might but be the most comfortable but at least every will get a seat.
@@andrewreynolds4949 ah fair point Andrew I was like surely it could be bi mode given some routes run under the powerlines but given your explanation makes perfect sense :)
TfW run their routes too long. Manchesters should end at Cardiff. gWr runs to Carmarthen now. And if you have a loco hauled service, put some carriages on it! It's not rocket science. If they're running 67's with a big luggage space DVT at the other end then they should maximise it with a full rake. Perhaps run that one from West Wales / Swansea instead of the diddy little units.
Ok the class 67 and dvt sets are actually remaining so yeah not going be displaced but work alongside them as we wouldn't have enough units there was option to increase the order as desired but they have to keep 13 class 153 as they won't now get to use the 170s for the heart Wales lines
158 and 156 are equipped with the BSI coupler, and the 196 is equipped with the scharfenberg coupler. So the 196 is IMPOSSIBLE to coupling with 156/158.
They look dated as soon as they are manufactured. Its as if most design teams and manufacturers don't really care for trains. Most trains have looked atrocious (uninspiring boxes on wheels) for a long time now. Nobody cares about going by train. It is seen as a tiresome, boring chore. It makes the passengers feel like shit. Gone are the days when they used to look elegant and awe inspiring. The same goes for aircrafts and buses. Everyone is so bloody obsessed with cars nowadays.
@@thetechnocrat4979 Gangwayed front ends are always hard to design but attempts to style them makes them worse. The Scottish 380 and 385 are probably the very worst. The first BR EMUs (Class 411) were a decent solution, then they tried to tidy them up and made them worse with the 421 type with recesses for the cables. The Clacton units with goggle eyes started the over-styled trend, then it came back again with the class 442 units. The Railway Technical Centre probably came up with the best solution in the class 158, which still looks like a proper train, and the same theme was carried forwards to the 375, 444 and 450 types. It has been downhill ever since with attempts to make the front ends of trains look like cars, with forecourt appeal. Even the Pacers were at least an example of honest design.
@Chiltern Transport Productions from what I've seen the look good and TFW should never have ordered 2 car trains waste if time in this day and age and second that catering thing is a waste of time should put seats in there
Do they have Welsh announcements in England??? I think TfW should have bought Hitachi hybrids like the ones on the East Coast Main Line for use on the electrified lines at either end of their routes.
Ironically northern got caf units to replace 14x units, they ride exactly the same and are just as cold, Cheap and nasty. Talk about this government desire to push people off the railway! We built better trains in Britain in 1989, it's absolutely crazy what's happened to Britain.
The bogies are very weak compared to those on the 175s. If there's a fault on the track, you can certainly notice it with these 197 units, and especially on jointed track! The announcements are enough to discourage anyone from travelling, also!
ONE toilet per 3-car train...on Intercity services....? What were they thinking?! No way is that going to cut it when the trains are busy, say morning / evening commuter peaks. And when that automatic door mechanism jams or fails (as they all do from time to time) that will mean NO toilet at all. 😖 Very poor choice by TfW. Clearly whoever specc'd these trains never travels by train! I can concur about the ride quality, the Northern 195s were shockingly rough when they first hit the road but have improved noticeably since then. Sadly the same can't be said for the hard, flat and bolt-upright ironing board seats, which now seem to be a universal (and horrible) feature of all new-build units. For the prices we pay I do think we should be getting better than this, but it feels like rail travel in the UK is going BACKWARDS not forwards. What a shame.
Totally understand 150's and 153's being replaced in Wales, as they are very old now and only really appropriate for Valley line work. However, removing the 158's and 175's is premature and unnecessary, as they are still a good age (especially 175) and definitely still have a role to play.
Totally agree the 175 is a superb unit , I will be sad to see them go .
@@bigdunc228 it's kind of mind boggling to think they may be scrapped instead of cascaded elsewhere to replace older 150,153,158's etc on other parts of the network.
@@JC-il6pshopefully another operator would be interested in using them like with the class 707s
Chiltern would suit the 175’s quite well in my opinion, although it probably won’t happen.
GWR should get the 158 and 175s to replace the existing stock for the Bristol services so they could be transferred to Exeter
These do seem to have one massive advantage - they aren't standing room only two car units!
Shhh! Don't give them ideas!
Or worse, a 1 car 153 unit
You haven't mentioned the awful announcements. I travelled from Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog - a 75 minute journey - on one of these units and had to endure 66 automated announcements - half in Welsh and half in English. Do we really need to be thanked for travelling by TfW or reminded to take our luggage away. It's just very annoying
So people who don’t know where they are going have to have maps to pls you 😂
@@englishjona6458 The OP is objecting to being repeatedly "thanked" for using TfW (just insincere verbiage) and reminded not to forget their luggage (well, duh). Not about actually useful announcements like the next station.
@@englishjona6458 visit Switzerland where the trains often have messages given in 3 or even 4 languages including details of onward connections and there's still less announcements compared to the UK and no "see it say it sort it" or constant reminders to not forget your luggage!
People are idiots nowadays. They actually need these sorts of announcements. They'd forget their heads if they weren't screwed on.
They wouldn’t do it if the lost and found wasn’t heavily utilised on British railways, people leave their luggage way too often.
"Most stations have ticket gates" - not so where I live. Most stations in Northern England and Scotland DON'T have ticket gates!
And Wales! Many stations without ticket machines as well.
@@Meengineer100 Indeed! I recently posted a film on here about Ardrossan, in which I point out that the platform announcement at both Ardrossan Town and Ardrossan Harbour stations tell you to buy a ticket before boarding the train, whereas the signs on the stations tell you to buy a ticket from the conductor on the train! Have a look at my film.
th-cam.com/video/GUI2qJfiiLk/w-d-xo.html
when you pay for a ticket for there to be no gates at either end and not to be checked by staff 💔💔
Most larger stations have ticket barriers but in most areas, smaller, less important stations don't
I managed to grab one of these on their first day on Liverpool runs, By complete accident (After TPE Cancelled a service, because of course) and honestly, I think they're at least decent. The seats originally were going to actually be the exact same design as the IET, but TFW paid CAF over £1,000,000 to swap the seats to these ones, which are definitely at least somewhat a upgrade honestly.
The giant galley will apparently allow hot food to be served when catering restarts, as it contains a microwave, although I'm not sure how useful it would actually be on those extra busy regional services where said catering is meant to be in operation, but I suppose time will tell. You are right though, they definitely suit replacing 150s over 175s
Strange how they thought the space taken up was justified in order to (hopefully at some point) offer hot food rather than a second toilet.... Very strange priorities there. You get the feeling that all these decisions are made be people who know nothing about the railways and who never travel by train.
I'm glad they sent that much money outside of our economy so that we could have a seat that's just as rubbish.
I'm a bit torn on the galley - I like the idea of onboard catering but I seriously question how often it will be viable given how crowded parts of these trains route plus staffing issues. Generally, I think the Class 197s would be massively improved if they had an extra carriage each (so the two carriage sets become threes and the threes become fours).
It was never going to match the 175 in terms of passenger experience. However if I get off a 507/8 from Liverpool onto a 197 at Chester towards Llandudno, and it's worse, then that'll be a problem.
The 197's look nice on the outside and inside but I feel they aren't long enough for some of the services they will be operating on ie Manchester to South Wales. Also that cabinet thing I've heard is suppose to be where food hot or cold is stored for the trolley services.
you know they will be 5 carriages on manchester to swansea? then detach to west wales so they wont be 2s or 3s up to manchester
@@SionsTrainVideos Quite. That is/was the main issue with the 175s - often a 2-car would turn up and would be as rammed as a peak time Tube train.
@@seprishere you mean 2s or 3s but yes exactly it is better when you get a 3 but it still isn't like good enough
The new Transport for Wales Class 197 is a nice addition to the fleet, with modern amenities and comfortable seating. However, when it comes to intercity travel and the specific route of Manchester to Llandudno Junction, I believe the Class 175 is the better option. The Class 175 offers more spacious seating and a smoother ride, making it a more enjoyable experience for passengers. Additionally, the Class 175 would be a great transfer option for Northern or another operator, as it is equipped with the necessary amenities and features to make the transition seamless.
One aspect of the Manchester to Llandudno Junction route that I particularly appreciate is the announcements. They are clear and informative, keeping passengers informed throughout the journey. Overall, great video as always, thanks for sharing the details of the Class 197 and Class 175 trains.
"More spacious seating" - no, because on the 175s chances are that you have to stand! Especially on South Wales to Manchester! I stopped going that way and went via Birmingham instead, XC was from Newport to Birmingham considerably quieter than TFW from Newport to Crewe. (The destination in my case was Preston.)
@@seprishere '175s chances are that you have to stand! Especially on South Wales to Manchester!' - whilst I can come to agree with you on that; in some ways, the 175 do still have a advantage to comfort of seats and i was specifically noting Manchester Airport to Llandudno Junction which is a considerably quieter route than the SW route.. I respect your opinion.
It is unlikely that Northern would take over a fleet like the 175s as they don't have any suitable routes. And the end doors make them slow loading/unloading like the 158s
@@peterheppenstall654 They used to be TPE and Northern did take some TPE routes. I would have thought they'd work on Blackpool to York?
Heck, Northern at one point took 180s on Blackpool to Manchester despite their lack of appropriateness because of ONE feature - they had five coaches.
@@Class777 I'd put the 11 car Pendos on the South Wales to Manchester route, except that it's not electrified.
Nowadays, breaking your fist on a train seat is considered as luxury for train operators
I was on one from Chester to Manchester Tuesday. I prefer the older class 175's that normally do that service. They aren't as cozy and warm.
I have traveled on this line with the class 197, which only consists of 2 cars. It is really overcrowded, and I can barely get a seat
The class 175 & 158s don't need to be replaced. Could understand the class 150 & 153. Hope they keep the class 67s.
The class 67/mk4 sets are part of TFW’s long term plan
I totally agree with the Class 67 Loco Service, that's a 1,000 x better than the clapped out DMu units .
Any replacement of the 158s and 175s needs to be a step above. The 195s however seem to be a class below, not configured as long-distance express DMUs. Like a replacing an E-Class Benz with a brand new C-Class of the following generation.
I'm not surprised that the 197s have rubbish seats. Up in Auckland they've got CAF-built electric units running commuter services and they've got similarly rock-hard seats. Another thing I don't understand is why the units only have one toilet regardless of whether it's a 2 or 3-car set (it appears that TfW and CAF didn't do much market research when developing these things).
Only one toilet. You're lucky, our Crossrail (sorry Elizabeth Line) Class 345 units have 9 coaches and no toilets.
@@nigelgilesD401 They are meant for short journeys like the tube. They don't need toilets.
@@rikkilamb noted, but Reading to Abbey Wood is 75 mins - so plenty of time to generate a need...lol
@@rikkilamb sorry - 95 mins - even longer
The 197s have 1 toilet per 2 car set and 2 toilets per 3 car set.
The rationale being they'll usually be used in multiple so there'll usually be more than 1 toilet on the train. So in this video's case, for example, there were 2 units coupled together so there's 2 toilets on the train altogether.
Toilets also take up space, especially PRM compliant ones, so there has to be a reasonable balance somewhere between making sure there's enough seating capacity on board and making sure the facilities are PRM compliant.
Usually don't watch this sort of content but your vid was pretty good
I’ll be honest I don’t think TFW needed new trains they just need better management
Like it’s pretty obvious a pair of 153s is not suitable for a Holyhead to Cardiff service
They needed more trains, since the Pacers were withdrawn, the 150s need eventual replacement, the 170s are needed by EMR, and TFW wants to run more services than before
They couldn’t even run services from Cardiff to Holyhead before Christmas… all change at sodding Shrewsbury… and wait!
Unless it’s local services around Cardiff, TfW don’t give a toss about any other services.
The 153s work for the heart of Wales lines however anywhere else it doesn't work
They should do what scotrail did and link a 153 to a 150
@@kuzatheaviator Scotrail linked 153s to 156s. Those might eventually be available but I think it would be better to just get a couple more 197s or something
Great video! I rode one of these from Runcorn Central to Liverpool South Parkway and then the same unit to Chester. I felt that while they where sufficient for that journey they definitely weren't a 'premier' train. Shame about the screens on your journey, they worked fine for me
Your review does make sense and reveal plenty of details that I didn't notice before. Meanwhile, I'd add that Civity diesel trains do keep off the engine revving noise from the inside very well compared to TfW's past fleet i.e. 175.
It seems to me the people complaining the most about these trains are "train fans" who seem to hate anything modern. I much rather these trains to the ones they're replacing, and the Stadler FLIRT trains that are also joining the fleet are even better.
I think they’re an improvement to a lot of the trains they’re replacing (i.e. the 153s and 150s), but they’re nowhere near as good as a 158 or 175. If they ran them on local routes within Wales, I wouldn’t have an issue - but it’s the fact TfW are choosing to run them on the Manchester/Holyhead to Cardiff and NWC routes that annoys me, when they clearly aren’t suited for that type of work.
I agree! and I think the Class 197 is just as comfortable as the Class 175! and I think it's fine for routes like Manchester Airport to Llandudno! and to add to that, they can make a 5 car set for Cardiff services!
Stadler 🇨🇭always beats CAF 🇪🇸
@@phweakwilled not that true with the Class 197
@@OMtheRails yes they are, they're fine for that work, they're perfectly comfortable
I have it on good authority that the staff think that CAF stands for 'Cheap As F@!K' ;)
CAF have also donated £150k to the Conservative party since November 2018 and it's not the first time this government has bought subpar junk from companies who donate to them
i call transport for wales trains f****d wales has they are a s**t service i know some drivers can not wait to get out of them i perfer travelling on GWR in south wales that is what you get when labour run the railways
I dunno why they have pinned these as an upgrade for express services. Surely the 231 fleet would be the replacement type for 175s while these replace 150 and 153 fleets. The 158 is the hard act to follow as they are bullet proof and happy doing all stops or long 90mph sections.
At least I in Bath can hope we can have their unused 158s to stop using 166s on Cardiff to Portsmouth
Nice review. Fully appreciate the points made. Looks as if TFW have got it 50-60% right. Another toilet and a bit more attention to detail would help. Regards Andrew Walley.
It’s a shame that we are stuck with these CAF trains as the Northern ones you mentioned are not great. It’s a shame they did not use the FLIRT family of trains as they do seem much better.
I’ll be honest the Flirts are pretty much exactly the same With seats and ride quality
Eh? The 195s are miles better than the Pacers that they replaced.
They also cost alot more, and the DFT aren't in the habit of spending money, especially now, so it's cheap or nothing.
@@bfapple and a hell of a lot less reliable
@@Trainman10715 The Pacers were not reliable when they were new. They needed a lot of modifications.
In early December, I went from Llandudno to Blaenau and back on the new 197. Unfortunately, they are not as good for disabled people in wheelchairs as the old ones, and as I will be travelling on the North Wales line soon I will be on them again instead of the 175s. No table in the wheelchair space, so nowhere to put hot drinks, and therefore not safe as there is a risk of scalding, and nowhere to put a laptop although there are power points. All able-bodied passengers get a table, mainly a fold-down airline-style type. Why are disabled passengers treated in this inferior way? Are wheelchair users not supposed to have hot drinks? I have written to TfW Customer Services a month ago about my safety concerns and still awaiting an answer.
I am never ceased to be amazed at how little progress has been made with the design of wheelchair ramps on new trains. Unbelievably the 197 requires a two part ramp, a normal looking ramp with an extra part fitted at the top. The top part has to be fitted for safety reasons apparently, but on one of my journeys it was forgotten and I exited safely. Progress!!!??? I get the impression that ramps are an after-thought in the design stage.
Locating any ramp seems hit and miss. Sometimes the lugs are located first time. Other times it’s a struggle. I feel sorry for the conductors who deal with this monstrosity, especially in wet conditions.
Sadly many of our railway companies seem all too willing to spend our hard-earned money with overseas train manufacturers. We, the fare payers, seem to have no choice in the matter. Of course it's good that CAF final assembly is done in Newport, but we need more than 'screwdriver factories' in the UK if we're going to flourish economically.
Dream on!
@@doctordeath2332 !!!
There is only one UK train manufacturer. If they don't have the capacity to build trains for every operator then what else can be done. Wave a magic wand?
@@rikkilamb True enough. No magic wands,, but we do need to ensure we place orders with the likes of Bombardier, Siemens, CAF, Hitachi and Alsthom on the basis of agreed levels of UK content if we're ever going to sort out our trade deficit and build sufficient quality jobs across the UK's regions.
Totally agree. Privatisation was a major killer of our rail industry and manufacturing. It has never really recovered from it.
When will you check out Chiltern Rilway's silver sets?
i kind of get the idea to replace everything, end of the day it makes repairs and servicing cheaper, rather having to worry about 4 different designs. yes 150s and 153s are different. ive tried the northern 195 units, i thought were ok and a good replacement for the 142 pacers, but im not sure i would want to be several hours on one. as like all modern trains, the seats are like ironing boards from poundstretchers !! i think northern are interested in the 150 units and again northern and east midlands for the 158s as both already have these units. the 153s will go as apparently suffering with corrosion and the narrow doors. the 175s are all with tfw, so for now i think they will stay and hopefully a good use found for them, as many passengers and railfolk like them.
nah tfw said theyre getting rid of the 175s, so unless they change their mind last minute the 175s will be gone by next year. likely to be scrapped as theyre not terribly reliable, shame really cos theyre bloody good trains when they work
As usual, a loco hauled set of Mark Ones would be a huge upgrade.
How sad that new stock has to be imported from overseas. Is rolling stock not built in the UK anymore?
The Great Northern Railway, The LNWR & Thameslink are running trains built by Siemans while Greater Anglia (Great Eastern Railway) is running trains from Stadtler & Bombardier. Certainly it's a far cry when we built trains such as the 317s & the 307s before them.
Is this a review of the 197 or a Travelog from MIA to Chester?. Yes the 197s are rough over Chat Moss like almost every other type of train. There was comments about the Monitors not showing the correct information but that is the same with most new stock - it takes time to tweak and work correctly.
I won't pass judgement on the 197s until I have tried one and I look forward to doing that at some point.
They look so much like the Northern 195/331 trains! Only a lot more stylish
Having new trains will not alter the fact that TFW are a substandard and useless service , I travel between Machynlleth and Birmingham International regularly to catch flights to Spain , the last 6 times I have never arrived at the airport station directly , instead I have had to change 2 and sometimes 4 times to arrive at my destination, appalling service and have had refunds on every occasion , god knows how this Welsh Government run sham of a transport system makes any money
They seem like they're still a work in progress, hopefully some of the issues are ironed out soon
I haven't yet been on one of these, my usual Manchester - Swansea route hasn't seen these units yet (though I guess may soon?) and have almost exclusively been class 175s, which I quite like
I really do love the kickdown on the diesel civities in the UK, acceleration is quite smooth.
I think TFW should have gone for IETs for their express routes but with better seating.
A bit overkill, in my view. Probably the Flirts are the best of the bunch.
Well Im fed up with Transport for Wales using Class 150 ( Local trains) on the Manchester to Swansea and Beyond services, every time I travel from Scotland on a decent Pendolino Service from Avanti West Coast I dread coming into Crewe, Waiting on Platforn 5 for what I call a Cattle-Wagon class 150 unit to come from the right hand line from Manchester Direction., Crewe Station Packed with Passengers around 5pm and a 2 Car unit strolls in, its so depressive even seeing a Class 150 let alone spending the next 4 hours travelling on it, from April I now travel back to Wales via Birmingham New Street / Bristol Parkway at least I get a comfortable ride back home. Yes they have these new units but when on earth are they going to use them on this main line Manchester to West Wales Service, most of these Class 197 units are stored in a siding in Crewe to this day, TFW are just as bad as Arriva Trains Wales when they ran this Rail service.
They’ll never get rid of the 153s untill a new 1 car train can be made (due to the Cardiff queen street-Cardiff bay shuttle)
Ive yet to go on these units but it does seem to have been not great reviews by many so far..just why modern trains seem to be so disappointing im not sure maybe like as they run the railways in general its done the wrong way round with passenger being the last beneficial.
for the record The 175's also came into service dogged by many reliability issues so too early to judge the new units on that front but that ride quality looked naff! my fav unit is still the 175 by a long way ..smooth running and comfortable..although when they wasnt overcrowded! anther epic TFW issue that was
Have been on 195 & 331 and the ride quality is terrible. Not in a hurry to try these.
Can't wait to sample one. They do look good though. Great video.
Can you do Lner next. I love them so much since I ride them a lot
I believe these units are to be upgraded to 4 and 5 car units in May
The north to South Wales route is a lovely route ruined by the rolling stock and with these it looks like that will continue.
Got to be better than the two car 153 set I travelled on from Manchester Piccadilly to Newport this week. Good that it had a refreshment trolley, but there were no seatback tables or power points! Unacceptable. I have complained to Tfw.
The vestibule doors were isolated open!
Seems like the traincrew are still getting used to the new trains, but I dread to think what will happen when they start using the ETCS fitted ones!
the thing that hurt me most iss your pronunciation of Llandudno. We love you tho
We have Desiro's in Belgium. Same nonsense. Economy is shrinking and this is how you see it. They save money on everything. These new trains with rubbish seats and only one toilet that automatically closes itself when the water runs out is basically a tin can on rails.
Desiros are considered better than CAF in the UK. Though we don't have auto closing loo doors. But we do have common people who leave toilet doors open 🙄
Pity the Welsh Assembly Government can't provide 25kVac overhead.
All railway lines in Wales apart from the Valleys lines (which are currently being electrified) are run by the UK Government
So what I also saw was the seat maquette had the greater anglia maquette
Does anyone know whats going to happen to the 175
I want to know too!
If I remember correctly WHSmith said they have to charge so much because NR charge them so much rent, but NR said they don't charge too much, and it's WHSmith's fault.
To be honest not a big fan of these units after several trips on the these the class 231 units are far better than these 197s the 197 are a poor replacement for the 175 sets
They look very cramped, more of a short distance train I think. One toilet for a 2 car unit is more the adequate, they just get abused anyway.
In Athens (and Thessaloniki) the desiro 5EMUs have two toilets per train
West Midlands railways have similar trains being introduced and they are similar in looks and there been no issues with those as far as I know
I have heard there are lots of reliability issues, but that’s not really unusual for new trains
@@andrewreynolds4949 Connex had reliability issues with the earlier 375s more than 20 years ago but they were trying to replace trains that's been in service since the 1950s & designed in the 1930s.
@@stuartlief9614 Yes, reliability issues aren't unusual for new trains
Sort of unrelated but where do you think the 158s and 175s will go after TFW? Personally I think at least some will go to northern.
158s are starting to look tired and look out of place with these new trains the 175s still have a place and could transfer to northern rail they would replace 158s but you got to admit wonderfully British built multiple unit top speed 90MPH which will be beasts in preservation.
@@declangaming24 I think the sprinters will last at least another 10 years, would be interesting to see where the 175s go though
@@ConfusedOxygen the sprinters need some refurbishment to expand there lifespan the 175s I will be intrigued to where they get transfered to
no idea where the 175's will go,...i love these units found them smooth and comfortable albeit sadly usually way overcrowded as they used 2 car formats petty much which was daft..
Certainly think that the 158s have some life in them yet, or certainly hope they do. Certainly the TFW ones they have done a great job of Refurbing them. 175s have some rust issues apparently. Just wonder what is going to go over the HOW line as the stock options there are limited
A great video. Thank you so much for uploading this.
I noticed you didn’t comment on the black and yellow tape on either side of the door. Personally I wonder is this really necessary? Are people that stupid? They don’t realise that two doors go apart?
oh god no those monstrosities cannot replace the amazing 158 (my fav train) and the 175 (pretty nice train) thanks for the vid ill have to try catch a 158 or 175 there asap (i prob cant though :( sad)
they have arm rest instead of the west midlands railway one
Shame they didn't go for a diesel version of the 397
That would mean either another micro fleet or unsuitable for most other services
I feel like they've missed the point with these. I frequently see these come in two carriages from Manchester. On the Marches line it should be a minimum of 4 carriages
I prefer them not gonna lie to you. Headphones in, better fittings and less noise
Glad to see that’s not the only service they’re ruining. Their incompetence is off the scale, for sure.
The new trains would look better if they were red, white & green.
Lol even the 507 in the background is laughing at the 197
Starting to wonder if they started using the 150s and 153s for these services to make these things seem an upgrade 😂
The Wales and Boarders rail franchise has been starved of investment for years. Let’s celebrate these new units entering service - The first new trains since 175s more than 25 years ago! These units are proven at Northern and West Midlands provide versatility to the fleet and will bring synergy in terms of optimised supply chain for fleet maintenance. They are an absolute step change in passenger usability and comfort over the 158, 150 and 153 units and we should celebrate their arrival. 158s and 175s are notoriously unreliable causing short formation trains the entire fleet of 175s had to be withdrawn due to an engine bay fire issue.
North Wales transport infrastructure has been starved of investment for decades please lets get behind what TFW and celebrate the introduction of these new trains , help them get into service quickly and allow them to get over the teething problems and allow staff to get familiar with the systems and their everyday operation.
It seems like a waste replacing the 175s with brand new DMUs when they are little over 20 years old, when they will have to be replaced anyway in the 2030s for electrification mandates. No wonder fares are going up so much when the lifespan is getting shorter, same with the 365s, 332s and 323s which were all electric and could have been used beyond the electric requirement whenever that comes in to force. There is also the replacement of the 390s which are not even 20 years old but will be replaced by Hitachi units. CAF also seem to have a lower reputation for reliability compared with Bombardier, Alstom, Stadler and Siemens. Not sure about Hitachi though, I seem to have heard mixed opinions from different people about them.
Avanti will keep the 390s, the 221s will be the ones getting replaced by the IETs and the 221s are going to XC and Grand Central
@@TheMidlandsTransportGuy Where are the 180s going?
I don't think seats with little room are a CAF feature.
Most of these descisions are down to the train operating company.
With regards to noise. Its impossible to not have some running sound in most trains/busses/ cars. These are actually really tame in comparison to older DMUs
Their suspension seems a bit shuddery but not that serious. Most modern trains are shuddery unfortunately
Useless seat/window alignment. I genuinely don't know why this is so hard for train manufacturers to get right?
It's not hard for manufacturers to get right. They just cram in the number of seats they are told to.
As someone who lives in wales and commutes by trains across the country daily TFW is shocking. The valley lines are the only reliable service in the country and it spends most of the year closed for repairs
Its exactly the same below sole bar as a northern 195. Just a different cab
Great video. Thanks
There’s 2 toilets on a 3 car, and that big catering box, what I’ve been told was it was put in by the Spanish, they insisted and then quoted TfW 1 million to take it out of each unit.
Interesting, it's a strange thing to force onto someone, maybe they had an cancelled order and were trying to offload them.
@@matthewandrewpalmer possibly , I’m not totally sure of the reason but it’s what I was told when training on them. Got insisted to have them then turns out the trolley doesn’t fit so now have to get new trolleys 🙄. They’re really great trains but there’s a handful of things on it you look at it and go “was they thinking with their arse as they put it together”
@@LiamHollowayvery interesting. I did hear about the trolley size issue, I found that rather comical.
The seats in particular are disappointing but they should be good. They make a huge difference when they run in 5 car formations along the Marches, might but be the most comfortable but at least every will get a seat.
Wonder why they didn't make them bi mode given the amount of times or runs under the wires?
Cost. And most of the intended routes are not electrified
@@andrewreynolds4949 ah fair point Andrew I was like surely it could be bi mode given some routes run under the powerlines but given your explanation makes perfect sense :)
@@andrewreynolds4949 They could run on electric between Manchester & Crewe / Newport & Cardiff / Swansea.
The Class 158 are way better.
TfW run their routes too long. Manchesters should end at Cardiff. gWr runs to Carmarthen now. And if you have a loco hauled service, put some carriages on it! It's not rocket science. If they're running 67's with a big luggage space DVT at the other end then they should maximise it with a full rake. Perhaps run that one from West Wales / Swansea instead of the diddy little units.
Ok the class 67 and dvt sets are actually remaining so yeah not going be displaced but work alongside them as we wouldn't have enough units there was option to increase the order as desired but they have to keep 13 class 153 as they won't now get to use the 170s for the heart Wales lines
Are these compatible with the older multiple units so can they couple up to 158s, 156s ect
158 and 156 are equipped with the BSI coupler, and the 196 is equipped with the scharfenberg coupler.
So the 196 is IMPOSSIBLE to coupling with 156/158.
I think they are great.
Wow they made something at Newport instead of deconstructing
The horrid overstyled front ends will look badly dated in 15 years.
Usual misalignment of seats and windows.
They look dated as soon as they are manufactured. Its as if most design teams and manufacturers don't really care for trains. Most trains have looked atrocious (uninspiring boxes on wheels) for a long time now. Nobody cares about going by train. It is seen as a tiresome, boring chore. It makes the passengers feel like shit. Gone are the days when they used to look elegant and awe inspiring. The same goes for aircrafts and buses. Everyone is so bloody obsessed with cars nowadays.
@@thetechnocrat4979
Gangwayed front ends are always hard to design but attempts to style them makes them worse. The Scottish 380 and 385 are probably the very worst.
The first BR EMUs (Class 411) were a decent solution, then they tried to tidy them up and made them worse with the 421 type with recesses for the cables. The Clacton units with goggle eyes started the over-styled trend, then it came back again with the class 442 units.
The Railway Technical Centre probably came up with the best solution in the class 158, which still looks like a proper train, and the same theme was carried forwards to the 375, 444 and 450 types. It has been downhill ever since with attempts to make the front ends of trains look like cars, with forecourt appeal.
Even the Pacers were at least an example of honest design.
The 197 has the same gearbox as 195
caf trains all around the world are always used for the cheapest, least comfortable option
The stadler Trains look like actual intercity trains. those don't, and the first reason is that rhese are too short.
I noticed the rough ride straight away first time I went on these. It's horrendous. lol.
no it isn't, you are horrendous mate!
WTF is that statue 1:18? That supposed to represent an actual man.
'Modern art' apparently
I hope TFW have class 195s in the future these 197s look nice but look poorly designed
@Chiltern Transport Productions from what I've seen the look good and TFW should never have ordered 2 car trains waste if time in this day and age and second that catering thing is a waste of time should put seats in there
I like the IET on GWR but the seats are so hard especially for long journeys. Any ideas of GWR will be getting the 197's?
No they will not
175 are better imo
Do they have Welsh announcements in England???
I think TfW should have bought Hitachi hybrids like the ones on the East Coast Main Line for use on the electrified lines at either end of their routes.
Yes! I travelled on the Chester to Lime St service and despite the journey being entirely in England, there were Welsh announcements!
When in doubt, strike. (Not you, dear videomaker!)
It is normal for 3 car trains to have 1 toilet, it is enough.
Ironically northern got caf units to replace 14x units, they ride exactly the same and are just as cold, Cheap and nasty. Talk about this government desire to push people off the railway! We built better trains in Britain in 1989, it's absolutely crazy what's happened to Britain.
They look like the scotrail class 380
Isn't the galley used for the catering service
The bogies are very weak compared to those on the 175s. If there's a fault on the track, you can certainly notice it with these 197 units, and especially on jointed track! The announcements are enough to discourage anyone from travelling, also!
ONE toilet per 3-car train...on Intercity services....? What were they thinking?! No way is that going to cut it when the trains are busy, say morning / evening commuter peaks. And when that automatic door mechanism jams or fails (as they all do from time to time) that will mean NO toilet at all. 😖 Very poor choice by TfW. Clearly whoever specc'd these trains never travels by train!
I can concur about the ride quality, the Northern 195s were shockingly rough when they first hit the road but have improved noticeably since then.
Sadly the same can't be said for the hard, flat and bolt-upright ironing board seats, which now seem to be a universal (and horrible) feature of all new-build units. For the prices we pay I do think we should be getting better than this, but it feels like rail travel in the UK is going BACKWARDS not forwards. What a shame.
That's a shame!
I havent seen any in south wales