Horizontal or vertical bi-amping?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ย. 2018
- What are the differences between horizontal and vertical bi-amping and why would someone choose one over the other? Are there best practices when it comes to bi-amping in different directions? Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
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So to all of the cynical folks who complain that Paul is just using this channel to sell gear - he just said he's not a fan of you buying twice as many of his amps for the purpose of bi-amping. Did you catch that? How is that making him money? Answer: it's not. Paul's "dirty secret" is that he's trying to get customers by being honest. What a cad! How dare he respect us like that!
Well explained. And I think that he has the right to promote his products on his channel!
got me freaking out with those noises i started looking what's wrong with my audio system
Great story about the bi-amping beginnings. I love audio equipment history.
Thanks for the information Paul!
Wouldn't bi-amping increase the head room for dynamic transients? If I have 2 discrete 120w channels going into each speaker, then don't I now have 240 watts available for each channel?
Great Paul, learned something today. Thanks
Paul, are you going to move the IRS to the new office? If so would you p-l-e-a-s-e show how you get those behemoths from Point A to Point B without breaking anything or killing anyone? 😁
I horizontally biamp my speakers simply because my receiver has extra channels and the extra power made a big difference in performance. Glad to hear vertically isn’t the better optoon
Très intéressante logique, et remet parfaitement les choses à leur place, bravo et merci !
If the two amps are different, horizontal. If the two amps are the same, vertical.
When I did Live Sound we used Bi and Tri Amping for More Control. With EQ's an Adjustable Crossover . But for Hi-Fi at home, a powered Sub + a pair of three ways is all I need.
Super explication ! merci :)
In a horizontally bi-amped system, does it make sense to use a more powerful amp for the bass than for the mid/high, assuming they have identical gain? I'm looking at a 55wpc amp for the highs and a 110wpc amp for bass, both with a 46X (33.3dB) gain. However they have different input sensitivities (410mV vs. 650mV), and also different output impedances (0.1 vs. 0.05 Ohms @ 1kHz). I'm concerned that one or the other will be louder, or is gain purely the only spec that determines that? Otherwise, can a possible imbalance be addressed with an in-line attenuator on the louder amp's input? Then again, wouldn't that cancel any advantage from feeding the woofer more power? Thank you for any ideas.
Paul, i had to say based in my personal experienced that biamping really make the difference.. specially when you cranking up the volumen ove 60%, and not to mention how sweet the mid nd treble distinguish by your ears when the reproduce media is from top quality. I ran test with vertical and horizontal mode biamping and triamping, and i had to say something... if you are going to mix two type of amplifiers like transitors in the bottom and tubes in the top end, you have to pay attention to the gains of each one, if that the case horizontal is the way to go. Otherwise if the gains doesn't match is worst that single amping. Vertical make sense if you go with a multichannel single amp and take the advantage of the same gain specially if have a good damping factor and toroidal transformer that can provide true power. I do have few emotivas xpr series triamping my klipsch p39f and sound sweet as baby!
With only two sets of speaker inputs, HF/mid and LF, how do you TRI-amp the P-39's?
thanks paul, the horizontal buggie . answered well
Paul, I have a pair of Muse Model One Hundred Fifty Mono Amplifiers circa 1991. They retailed back then for $2999/ pair. What is your opinion on these. I bought them used for $200 and they both work. Originally I was to use them on a pair of subwoofers in a theatre room. Would this be a waste? I have a video of their guts on my youtube channel.
Hey Paul, is it your watch that is causing the interferance?
Hello, Paul! I was wondering the same thing and this video came off .... unfortunately it adds more mist to what I read by now. I want a second Emotiva A-300 (150W @8Ohm) amplifier to properly power some Dynavoice Definition DF-6's (rated @max 175W).
It seems more logical that when using two identical amplifiers to go vertical bi-amping (each amplifier on it's channel) to prevent crosstalk between channels. Either way, I'm going to buy a second amp and test it in both configurations ... I was amazed what bi-amping did on my old AV receiver and a pair of Monitor Audio bookshelf speakers.
Think I'd rather have tubes pre and power . They dont have near the quirks some go on about . Love em .
Why did you include bi-wiring on the bhk monoblocks?
I bi-amp horizontally for two main reasons: 1) Active Crossovers are better than the passive crossover network that came with my speakers (totally anecdotal, as this was my impression after doing so) and 2) being able to reduce the output to the woofers on my speakers even -0.5dB made a world of difference in my room (it got rid of this annoying bass node that I couldn't manage with treatments at my listening position). I'm using identical Emotiva amps. I would never go back to using a stereo amp with passive crossovers on my speakers!
Could you please share the topic ? Is there any measurement involve ?
why bi-amp(or dual mono)?
intermodulate distortion/crosstalk reduction.
then there is the little critter called the active crossover.
standard fare for p/a-live reproduction systems.
I passive bi amp'ed my Infinity RS IIIa's a few years ago. After killing every amp and receiver they came in contact with over the years I finally broke everything off the crossover for the woofers and put it to new binding posts for them alone. Hooked it all up to a QSC CX254, 4 channel, 250 watts per channel @ 4 ohms and can dip down to the floor if needed. With Infinity's it all about amp head room and staying away from clipping. They have never sounded better. The only way I can describe it is the woofers are now free to be woofers and the top end never shined brighter and clearer. Using a 4 channel amp I dont know whether if it is horizontal of vertical but it works if just for the brute over powering alone.
What are those speakers next to you? I bet they are insane loud.?
Unless your name is John Atkinson, matching gain doesn't matter at all.. You always end up adjusting the output level by ear anyway.. That's one of the benefits of biamping horizontally..
horizontal surely all the way. because you can use a warm amp for the low end and a bright amp for the tweeters. surely there is no benefit at all from vertical (one amp for bass one for tweeters instead off one amp for the tweet and bass of each speaker not sure if i got my terminology the right way around)
I tested first vertical Bi-Amping (Yamaha AX-870 & Infinity Kappa 90) ; the first impressions of Amp A for both speakers and with Bridge at the Speakers versus Horizontal Amp A to Speaker Low and Amp B to Speaker Mid&High ; the Huge difference it is ! 😳😬👍🏻🍾🥳🤓
first the speakers are louder by the same Amp knop position ergo effectively better than before
second huge difference i must position all knobs (Bass & Treble & Loudness) to Zero and flat by that configuration they playing much bigger, more present, the high freq have more details ..! Never turn back with Bridges plus one Amp channel for both (if with cable or flat profil; cause it cost performance everytimes);
third the Kappa‘s are more better sounding if its at low power position or louder Volume.
At moving the tones position and more input give if its treble / base / loudness its like another speakers. By the changes +/- that’s more changing than before .
The scratch noise by moving the treble/bass/loudness are lower nearly gone (but i think to remove scratch noises by turning knobs .. cleaning times for the Amp)
I am very thankful for your extra Work and the Videos to give us more knowledge and better understanding the Background of High Fidelity ;
Greetings from Germany to you in US and stay healthy ...! Hope at a future after covid restrictions a day comes to could meet you by music fair or i got become rich to travel again to US 😉👏👍🏻
how is biamping in context of power supply output impedance, ie the ability to improve conditions for the power amplification section? further, power transistors are somewhat limited by their slew rate (audibly so?) so provided biamping splits a (lets assume) power hungry mid/treble section off of the bass section, their dynamics should be enhanced to some small degree because of lower transistor current amplitude but same available dynamics now powering fewer drivers, or in other words, overall better transistor dynamics available for all drivers.
And, to my first point, i suppose feeding one bass amp section with one power supply which also provides some energy to mid/treble path would reduce the load on it, would make it appear “stronger”, relatively speaking, as voltage stability should improve (which is what Paul often refers to as a surprisingly effective way to enhance SQ).
Finally: the path before the transformers too has half the single amp impedance: 2 fuses, 2 power switches, 2 socket/plug contacts, 2 plug/cable contacts, 2 power cables , 2 cable plug contacts, 2 plug/socket contacts, all pin parallel, enhancing that path as well. All comes at a at a cost of course, that should probably be compared with a twice as expensive amp and power cable (the prior could have that twice as big transformer with half the impedance, the latter too could have twice the cross section and better plugs etc). So vertical bi amp should not sound the same as single amp operation due to halfing PSU output impedance and available dynamics; the amps output impedance however stays the same.
Using powered speakers combines horizontal and vertical amping. ( no interconnect fuzz)
I would go vertical for the exact reason you mentioned and the ability to have shorter speaker cables. Is there any advantage of horizontal?
In commercial applications, the reason to go horizontal is related to energy levels of music. You can see this in most powered speakers. There is no reason to put a bass thumper size amp on a tweeter or midrange. For gymnasium size venues, a horizontal rack with active crossover is typically 1200 Watts / ch for the woofers and 100 Watts / ch for the tweeters for the headroom. The very common Mackie SRM 450 powered speakers for example uses close to the same power ratio with the woofer at 400 Watts and the tweeter at 50 Watts RMS. A properly designed power amp without being overloaded, should contain the proper size power supply. A pair of SRM450 speakers is OK for a gym PA, but you will want several pairs in a cluster for a concert, so 3 pairs would be 1200 Watts per ch for the bass and 150 Watts per cluster for the tweeters.
As prior mention, long speaker cables are bad. Locate the amps near the speakers. Much of the industry are moving to powered speakers for this reason.
This amp power split protects the speakers. You eliminate huge harmonic content from a 2400 Watt amp in clipping from running huge amounts of harmonic power into the tweeters. The tweeters are protected by the power limitation of the tweeter amp. You may get 50 volt peaks to the tweeters instead of 100 volt peaks due to the lower voltage power supply for the lower power amp for the tweeters. Remember in Audio, doubling the voltage into a fixed resistance is 4X the power. This is what blows tweeters in clipping.
isettech Yes if you choose different amps you obviously must go horizontal always. But that means you might have level and phase issues. If you do active cross-over and truly optimize everything, amps should not be identical vertically, but this video assumes using the passive cross overs in the speakers designed to match one common signal level.
ThinkingBetter, I hear people talk about phase issues between mismatched amps, but most that speak of this have never measured the rise time of modern DC coupled solid state amplifiers. Essentially there is no phase shift differences in relation to the phase shifts in an active crossover. If you have a local high end repair shop who is willing to lend time, ask if they would profile several off the shelf amps rise times and compare it to the differences in phase shifts in various active crossovers. A solid state flat amp with no tone controls has very little time delay from input to output. Any phase differences between amps is minuscule compared to the phase shifts of an active crossover.
The phase shifts between amps is a straw man argument of jumping over a $100 dollar bill to pick up a penny. The only concern is some off brand amps are inverting which is a 180 shift, which is easily corrected.
isettech Yes, indeed agree the only phase issue of significance for amps not having any digital path is absolute phase that also shouldn’t be an issue when an amp is correctly designed. Anyway, I’ve actually designed active speakers and I can see you know what you are talking about.
@rockn roll Most people have no idea how much power they actually use. A few amps had actual watt meters on them. Very rarely are home amps run above 10 watts. Most of the time most home amps are driving under 1 watt. If you know anyone with an oscilloscope, ask them to bring it over and check the voltage waveform to the speakers. It is very rare to see voltage peaks over 30 volts in a home.
How do you gain match them?
Sound Yuk! Content Yay!
Bi-amping makes sense in the sound reinforcement universe.
Jerome Mc Kenna That's the only place I've heard it. 1 exception being a friend's car stereo , 1980's .
I have a Pioneer VSX-53 used as a processor and Yamaha A-S700 amp to power a pair of B&W 685 speakers. There is a noticeable difference when bi-amping.
Yeah, Pioneer receceivers suck in terms of power
valicu2000 I was pretty disappointed with it considering it’s a Class D 110 RMS. It made the B&W speakers sound gutless. The Yamaha amp fixed that problem though. The pioneer is only powering a center speaker now when I watch tv.
I can't understand why some people think it's a good idea to put large inductors, capacitors and resistors in the power signal path. There are advantages to fiddling with the signal when it's small, before it's amplified. Paul alluded to that when discussing tube input stages to solid state amplifiers. I suppose the biggest argument against bi-amping or tri-amping is that active crossovers can add noise or otherwise alter the "purity" of the signal. I have been persuaded that having nothing between the output transistors and the voice coils except sufficient copper, sounds better to me.
I like to bi-amp monoblocks. Two amps each speaker. Lol kidding
Arent the IRS biamplified? I thought the bass columns had their own amplifiers driving them. So, maybe you do like biamped systems.
Well, not at all. We can biamp is our speakers are not capable of providing flat response from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. If your speakers can't produce flat response the way they were meant to, then bi amping would be the way to go. The theory is that fundamental Bass frequencies below 60 Hz are non directional. I don't believe it. But, it doesn't matter as much as the higher frequencies speakers can reproduce. My current set up is two two way Focal driven speakers that handle 45 Hz up. They are set up vertically. I run a single subwoofer, which I would ideally have set in the center of the room, inbetween the two mains. It uses an NHT 1259 12" woofer which is amplified to cover from 50 Hz and below. I'd love to have the two speakers line up at 45 Hz, but they just don't. And the sub is set up with a system Q of .81, so that it dips above 40 Hz and rises dramatiaclally by 2 to 3 db at about 40 Hz with great extension down to 23 Hz, and is audible down to 16 Hz or lower. This is because they are in a sealed box which allows them to cover a whole lot of ground a ported cabinet wouldn't cover. The mains are vented boxes which roll off quickly below 45 Hz. So the trick is to dial in just enough bass volume to create flat response down as low as you'd can really hear. And it works. So it is a bi amplified system, even though I would rather have a single stereo amp handle everything. All this is without an EQ in the system as the newer Amos don't have an EQ or cassette loop available to properly EQ the system response for the room your listening in. Man, if I did? I can't believe what I would be able to bring out of the system!
Is bi-wiring total BS? Other then providing more conductive surface area for the audio signal to travel along. Is there actually benefits?
Bi wiring? Or bi amping? I cant Believe bi wiring could make such a difference.
bi wiring is a load of BS
there is a bit of an advantage, actually 2: for one in the speaker cables for treble there is the bass voltage signal, but not the bass current, and it is the current that creates some magnetic field which reduces fidelity of treble signal to a small extent; the other positive effect is, back EMF of the bass coil (a relaxing bass voice coil induces voltage, which the amp needs to shorten for great bass control) may find partially its way into the mid/treble section with single wiring (only frequency components in overlapping frequency range), while in biwiring all back emf voltage sees the amp terminal before it could do anything on the treble section.
So, here it is as always in Audio: zero difference doesn’t exist, but the differences might be too small for someones taste in someones system, and given the extra cost for a pair of speaker cable needed.
I'm sure you're aware but you microphone shielding is failing you picking up interference.
Plus, zoom in all the way, set the focus and then turn off the auto-focus and set the desired zoom/wide angle.
James Plotkin are you trying to be funny it doesn't suit you!!!!!
And vertical amping saves space
A darn good amp bi wired is all you need ! If it's a stereo amp it must have dual power supplies !
Paul must next do a feature on audio interference in his No1 music room hahaha ..!!
Why would you bi-amp? If your power amp ain't good enough to run speakers as normal then get a better amp. 2 amps running 1 speaker pointless... No!
@British Naturalist Yeah but these are the same people who claim they can hear a difference between 2 different CD players.. Or speaker wire.. They must have cybernetic hearing!
@British Naturalist And May i ask what speakers your enlightened and experienced ears listen to??
@British Naturalist Ah.. Mission are decent..
The benefit to vertical bi-amping would be extra channels on the receiver & the lack of wattage coming from just using 1 per speaker!!! If u have a receiver 70 watts × 5? If you only have 2 speakers to connect? using 2 of the channels for 1 speaker gives you 70 watts to the highs & mids & 70 watts to the subs in 1 speaker enclosure! Instead of 70 watts for all speakers the 1 enclosure!!!