Yall remember Danny Phantom? There was a not so short stretch of the show when people hated and feared him for being a hero, yet he persisted anyway because some one had to deal with the ghosts. And unlike Spider-Man Danny never had an uncle Ben moment.
I LOVE Danny Phantom. And you’re right, he was a kid trying to fight ghosts to save people even when everyone feared him. He never had to lose loved ones or any of that and, the one time it happened, he turned evil. The Ultimate Enemy showcased the importance of Danny’s family and friends, even Mr. Lancer, in how they keep Danny in the line of good. You kill any one of them and Danny will stray from the line of good. The only other character I’ve seen in comic books that showcase the importance of family and friends in the heroes’ lives to that extent is Damian Wayne.
Any old cartoon version is "so good" because: 1) you watched it as a kid (or just a fake nostalgia poser) 2) due to censorship they had to cut any too controversial moments, that's why Batman punching Joker from a train or Joker left in a plane that next moment blows up goes unnoticed by next episode, that's why public fears Superman not purely because of his powers (like they did in original and in reboot comics in the 90s prequel issues where Clark wasn't "Superman" yet) but because he once was controlled by Darkseid and ASSumingly killed a lots of good army men which is why his friend Dr Hamilton became his ex friend and created Doomsday in this version, that's why Batman became absolitist with absolutely 0 hypocrital moment about him like it was in comics before 1941 censorship and some time past early 60sm
@@FirstnameLastname-my7bz I don't think that the old Justice League was good because of nostalgia. I used to watch Thomas the freaking Tank Engine as a kid, yet THAT isn't what I would consider a "cinematic masterpiece..." I say Justice League is good because it IS good. Its incredibly well written, is actually entertaining, and teaches good lessons. I'm not some idiot who only cares about dumb nostalgia. In fact, it annoys me to no end when people obsess over nostalgia. Censorship isn't always a bad thing. A show isn't better for having excessive violence. It doesn't make it more "adult" in fact usually swearing, violence, and sex makes a show feel _less_ mature. The superhero TV shows like Justice League and Batman are _better_ because of censorship. Because instead of just showing us acts of violence, they use storytelling and clever dialogue to get the idea across in a much more impactful way. Because what we picture in our imaginations is wayyy more dark than whatever they could possibly show on-screen. Censorship done properly can still tell impactful stories that adults can enjoy, while still being suitable and safe for children.
I’ll always think of Steve Rodgers jumping on the grenade, no fear, no hesitation, ready to sacrifice himself for people that never truly saw his value The serum made him Captain America but the real superhero was always Steve
Are there any Cap comic runs that feel like MCU Cap? US comic art usually puts me off but hey, if the story is good... I love that kind and selfless Steve Chris Evans gave us.
Deku not letting go of Eri for anything. Performing in the school festival just to get a smile out of her. Batman sitting with Ace. No big fight just holding a frightened girls hand. Spiderman saving that train full of people even if it meant tearing his arms off. Batman willing to pay the ultimate price with 0 hesitation to save the island of people and superman. These are the most heroic moments that stay with me.
THIS BOZO THINKING BOKU NO PICO ADACEMIA as a good example 🤡 Isn't the same Manga where if you cannot be a Hero if you does not have Powers, Worse, apparently in that universe being a Hero is about Being Famous & Not saving people 🤮
The whole festival arc was basically that. I'm pretty sure Gentle Criminal and La Brava made it clear they were only going to do a b*mb scare(thus stopping the festival) before heading out, but Deku still took it as seriously as he did against Overhaul. Because despite the lower stakes, he still had the same goal of saving Eri from her trauma.
@@Lucien_M That was one of my personal favorites. I wish Gentle would return and get a second chance at being a hero... Dude was an idiot, but had such a good heart.
Flash talking with the trickster in Justice League the animated series I feel captures this amazingly. Orion and Batman were ready to break this guy in half because "Oh it's a villain" but Flash knew he wasn't just a criminal, he was a man with a sickness and needed to be treated, not hurt. There's a reason flash is the heart of the league
Actually, no orion was the only one who wanted to beat the info out of him, and batman was the one to tell him to let the flash deal with the trickster his own way.
I loved how Bats was the master of understanding all of his teammates. Constantly Telling Orion off for being judgmental throughout the episodes knowing Flash had his home turf completely under control, or the entirety of him recruiting Green Arrow, or recruiting The Question to get answers about Cadmus.
No,no. That's not how it went down. The Trickster said "Ill never rat out my partners." Batman "Orion" in a very ommomuse way. Orion grabs Trickster "Talk, while you still have a jaw," and that's when Flash steps in. Only then does Batman back off. Fyi I don't think Batman would'velet Orion hurt him to bad but the plan was obviously to beat it out of him@noctisastrum7495
Yeah if you pay attention to Batman in that episode, it's obvious he has alot of respect for how flash does things. For One, he reluctantly agrees to attend the Museum opening. Some both Flash and Orion are surprised about. And second, there's a scene we're Orion is complaining about everyone praising Flash as a hero even though he wastes time caring about villains like Trickster and doing tasks for regular people and he doesn't understand why that makes Flash a hero Batman response "No, you don't understand"
“Why didn't superman just grab her taking her to where she needs to be” Yeah and that definitely wouldn't result in the girl committing it in some other way.
That tweet really pissed me the hell off The problem is not that 'This lady is going to jump off a building' it's that 'this lady _Wants_ to jump off a building'
"Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker." -C. S. Lewis
@@nadie887 too much subversive content of the same type creates a new trend, which itself can be subverted, which is the meaning of the original comment. It quite literally stops being subversive over time if more and more stories copy the formula, and subversiveness is definitely part of a story's value
@@kirtil5177 No it doesn't. "Subversive" means it changes the formula, and creates something unique out of a trend. By definition it cannot become a trend in itself. It's like saying "If everybody is special, no one is". That is wrong because the concept of being special is being different, so it cannot follow a "trend" like you say. Also, stories of super powered characters that aren't exactly heroic come in all shapes, forms and themes. It's not just a "trend". Making a super powered story that isn't like the rest in theme is in itself subversive. "Non-heroic supers" isn't a trend, or a copy. It's literally the opposite. It's making something different. Plus the concept of super-heroes is a massively bigger trend that has being going on for a century now with much more popularity. That isn't subversive now, is it?
I love my Adventure with Superman cuz it does a great job of proving why people can't see Clark as Superman. Clark is a genuine, nerdy and clumsy boy scout who is awkward and introverted. This is who he is, he puts on a cape and gets the confidence to stand upright and be a symbol but he will still not stick around to have conversations with police and criminals. He'll rather say something profound and with good intention to tell people to be better and then fly away unless it's a 1-on-1 with someone who needs it. Superman is the act and disguies not Clark Kent. Barry Allen on the other hand loves people but as Barry he is often ignored. As the Flash he will have an hour convo about the football with the police after he stopped the crime
One moment that stuck with me was the Justice League episode “Tabula Rasa.” Martian Manhunter tries to track down Lex Luthor via telepathy but ends up hearing everyone else’s thoughts. Disgusted by what he’s heard he goes into the forest and reassumes his Martian form, wondering just what his place on Earth is and who he’s fighting for. Then a group of people are nearby searching for a scared little girl who’s lost in the forest. One guy even thinks, “I don’t even know the kid, but I know how I’d feel if she was MY daughter.” Then everyone else is thinking about finding her. He finds her, transforms back into his more heroic look, brings her to the search party then vanishes. The icing on top of this is Wonder Woman telling him, “You’re not getting away that easily.” Then they hug before helping the rest of the League against AMAZO.
During my ongoing rewatch of Justice League, that moment made me cry. Always does. The private thoughts of some random guy inspired one of the world's greatest superheroes. That boundless capacity for good in people is exactly what we're fighting for. The common humanity brought out by times of crisis just got to me, man.
Manhunter's reaction to everyone's thoughts shows that the writers think badly of people in general (except for themselves, of course). The average person is just normal. A decent, good person who is thinking about what he wants to eat or what game to play or book to read.
One moment that will always resonate with me is a scene from gerry duggan's run of Deadpool. Wade stops a girl from committing suicide, he takes her around town to cheer her up and afterward drops her off at a hospital so that she can get help. The reason that this resonates with me so much is that it really shows how beneath all the murder and crazy, he is still human. If a hero like Deadpool can have those moments, all heroes should.
I love the moment in Rick Remenders run on X-force where they find out Apokalypse who they were sent to assassinate is actually a baby, and deadpool who's healing factor is currently not working is the first one to put himself between the team and the baby saying they would have to go through him first. I love it when deadpool has an actaul moral compass, I think it is far more compelling. Even if he is still a mercenary.
Honestly I feel like its due to the whole love for villains and anti heroes hype lol. People wanna be philosophical and say "i always liked the villains more" or "a villain would sacrifice everything for you" as of they haven't heard of super villains sacrificing their own kids for world domination lol. Its kinda funny. For them the anti hero or morally Grey is basically a villain who is hot and dateable. Nothing wrong with liking things or having fun but it's just silly😂 ppl also wanna be diff and say "happy endings SUCK" as if happiness isn't just as real and possible as tragedy. I love happy endings and I love heroes. I wanna see heros win fairly and prove their victory. I want people to be happy cuz i am already a miserable person.
@@He-who-wakes Hey! Acting like a child won't get you anywhere. Plus, dark and gritty characters usually tend to be more interesting, realistic and grounded than your typical, super-perfect, never-wrong, heroic knight-in-shining-armor with zero flaws- morally, spiritually and physically.
A few of the most heroic scenes that stood out to me: - The aftermath of when Peter stops the train in Spider-Man 2, the civilians return the favour of him saving them by stopping him from falling and promising to keep his identity a secret, even willing to protect him from Doc Ock when he comes back despite being obviously outmatched. - Mumen Rider challenging the Deep Sea King in One Punch Man - we all know he had no chance of winning, but he still puts his life on the line in an attempt to protect the public, even if the scene tried to make it comedic with how easily he got knocked out it was also badass and admirable at the same time, Mumen Rider more than demonstrated that he had the heart of a hero despite his lack of physical strength. - Omni-Man saving the Thraxans from the black hole just as he was attempting to end his own life the same way. His time on Earth had changed him enough to the point that he felt genuine compassion for what he would have considered lesser beings, and put their safety before his own self deletion. Not only that, but his immediate instinct after returning them home was to fly away without needing any credit for the good deed, before they stopped him to invite him to stay.
With the Mumen Rider one, I liked the way Saitama handled it. He, of course, beats the Sea King and makes it look effortless, so for a moment the crowd of civilians that M.R. was fighting for start thinking of Rider as not being anything special or heroic - that he was someone pretending, essentially. And Saitama sees this and knows he could gain the public's adoration at Rider's expense, but instead of accepting it, he makes it so Rider and the other heroes get the (well-deserved) credit. He sees what a hero is and should be and knows it's not really himself, at least not at that point, and the crowd celebrates that.
I used to live in a rather elitist neighborhood. My parents moved there briefly, because my father had a job that allowed us to afford to at the time, but the residents of that neighborhood weren't all that welcoming of us. I remember a specific encounter I had with one particular man, who had seen me rent a Spiderman video from a store once. "You really need to learn to grow up," he said. "Heroes aren't real; in the real world, it's survival of the fittest, where everyone else is out for themselves. It's eat or be eaten, so if you aren't prepared to bring others down for your own sake, you had best get out of the way for the ones who are." He was saying to me, who was a kid at the time. A kid! And the worst part was that the store was not empty. No one called him out on it. No one challenged him, and they wouldn't meet me in the eye after that. Thirty years later, those words still echo in my mind, and I can't help but feel like this is the reason why heroes aren't heroes these days. Because the people who make these shows and movies struggle to believe in them as they go about trying to outmaneuver and/or devour their co-workers and rivals and advance their own careers. Always seeing the evil around them, but not in themselves.
😢 Thats awful, sadly he needed to take his own advice telling this to a child btw. Yes, there are assholes out there but also kind ppl as well. Sadly this prick took whatever issue he had in life and made it your problem.
He must have had a very pathetic life if he truly believes that there’s not a single person in the world that help another person because they want to, or he believes that every act of good have some secret selfish plan behind it because that is what’s he is like.
"Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker." -C. S. Lewis
I just love this back and forth. I'm just 25 and i've seen the public going from "we want more dark and gritty" to "we want more happy and inspiring material" in all sorts of media at least 3 times. It's so dumb
@@thebcwonder4850 For the average person Dark and gritty means everyone bad and awful and cynicism everywhere and happy and inspiring is feels good happy ending and pleasant and good people. And because of the story of comics and super hero stuff that goes up 300%, you can't make batman too soft or not tragic otherwise everyone loses it because he's supposed to be this on the brink of insanity and keeping together by sheer stoicism and dicipline. You can't make superman have any flaw otherwise people lose it because he's supposed to be alien jesus boyscout and idealism incarnated
We need variety in storytelling. Not going one way over the other. People can have their preferences but there’s great stories that are dark and gritty. And great stories that are inspiring and hopeful. And both of them should exist.
@@deadmeme7030 If only more stopped to think about that, 99% don't think about content saturation and just try to justify why one is better than the other or whatever.
The reason why it works for venom being an antihero is that by he’s very nature his species I kind of Psychopathic killers. He happens just to be redeemed by Eddie to want to do a good instead of just eating everyone.
Unless we’re talking comics in which the Klyntar are actually a very peaceful symbiotic species and only become evil psychotic killers when they bond with unstable people like Eddie Brock and the suit’s shared hatred of Spiderman, and Cletus Kasaday and his… well… psychotic murdering
Controversial take, but Venom turning good worked better when Flash Thompson was Agent Venom because he was teaching Venom good morals from Peter Parker and being inspired by Spider-Man. Flash was already a hero and was teaching that to venom. It may work in media, but imagine how better it would’ve been had Flash was injected with venom like in the comics and teaching it to venom?
@@randomolisher the Klyntar were not peaceful. They were subject to their host and were created by Knull to dominate the universe tho this was a retcon
@@youngbounty1394Eddie Brock is a irresponsible and jealous character at heart, he even becomes Toxin when flash gets the symbiote, so it does kinda makes sense for Flash to teach it good values. And it wasn’t Eddie that corrupted the Symbiote, it was Peter. This is one of the reasons I hate the Knull retcon and modern renditions of Venom and Carnage. It works way better if we address Peter’s issues and Venom is a reflection of his anger and his worse side. It actually makes Venom caused by Peter and makes him have to take responsibility and fix the issue he caused. Instead of “ooo evil spooky goop monster want to kill spider” like that god awful insomniac version did
I'm 35 and I shaped, molded my character after those who did good because the smallest good is worth it. Superman, Wolverine, Power Rangers, Captain Planet.. Doesn't mean I'm naive/ or blind to people trying to screw me over. I think it helps me see peoples true intentions sooner
12:10, it feels like a cheat for me to give this as my example but in the 2002 Spider-Man movie, when the several people begin pelting Green Goblin with assorted objects to intercede on Spider-Man’s behalf against Goblin because “if you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us.”
The people who criticize things like superman helping a suicidal woman don't get it because they can't understand the hero's mindset. They're thinking of it from a consequentialist viewpoint. The ends are what matters, so to speak. A true hero, like Superman (the way he was intended to be written), doesn't consider anything to be "beneath them". Every life matters. And yeah, at any given moment there's probably a natural disaster going on halfway across the world that superman could be helping with, but he's not the only person who can do that, especially if we acknowledge that he's in the DC universe where heros like the flash exist. If he sees someone, about to jump off a building, and thinks "I'm probably the only one who could save this person right now," it doesn't matter if there's something that's, in our minds, a bigger deal that he could be helping with, because if that person dies when he could have done something about it, he would feel responsible for that death. That's how heroes are. That's how they're meant to be.
The reason why Strange is against Peter idea in NWH is because curing the villains would affect the other universes history (the villains aren't from the present day, but from different time periods of those universes), creating variants and new Earths, affecting the multiverse that, bc of Strange's spell is already unstable. Peter goal may be good, but his actions can have bigger consequences for the world. Strange doesn't re-learn anything bc in the end it isn't sending the villains back that just fix the multiverse. It's Peter finally realizing his mistake and letting Strangecompleting the memory spell.
Peter finished curing villians allowing them the potential chance to not be killed in theyre original universes, strange finishing the spell didnt undo peter's goal in the climax
An Amazing Hero moment that has stuck with, was Lemillion vs Overhaul from MHA. It wasn't that he was fighting a dude who could potentially kill him in one touch, it's why he was fighting him. To protect a single kid, just one small girl. He insured that this girl wasn't hit at all during this entire fight. He even let himself be shot by a quirk erasing bullet then let it hit her. Even after being hit by said bullet, he still fought Overhaul. His ability (Permeation) was arguably not that powerful compared to Overhaul, which made him even more badass in the fight. He used his OWN STRENGTH to humble Overhaul. He didn't even win, yet he still manage to occupy Overhaul so that Deku would defeat him. I loved this heroic scene, even if lasted for less than an entire 9 minutes in the anime.
Oddly enough this reminds me of the magical girl problem in Japan. Magical Modaka did it's thing. Everyone copied the surface detail and forgot that the fans enjoyed the magical girls trying to do what is right rather than having everything bleak. So it made magical girls an archetype rather than a major series. Yes there are still magical girl shows... But they are not as many as there once was and they seem to be recovering. Sort of like how Super Hero shows and movies are struggling, but we get shows like Invincible and My adventures with Superman where being heroic, nice, or caring about others is more of an exception than the norm.
A really fun magical girl series I'm enjoying right now is Magical Girl Tsubame: I Will (not!) Save the World! It's pretty dark but the characters are still fun and silly
Ironically, Madoka Magica is where the superhero moment that I think of first comes from, where Mami saves a woman jumping to her death by basically pulling a Spiderman. I'll grant it's a small and kinda pedestrian thing, but I always found it an interesting contrast within the context of the show that she's the only one whose abilities (the ribbons) are more immediately suited to protecting potential victims than ending potential threats. Really got me thinking a while back about that contrast in other hero stories. I mean, I get that she doesn't last long, so that means the show was just dunking on idealism, right? Not to me. To me, the overall message of the show is about the things that make dreams of a better world a reality. About how while dreams without understanding are doomed to fail, shown with Sayaka's whole arc; and that understanding without dreams is rudderless and pointless, shown primarily with Kyoko's whole character; when you have a full picture of and understand how the world works, and still have your dreams, that's how you can truly improve the world, shown with Madoka's final wish. It's not, to me, bleak for the sake of being bleak, but rather bleak for the sake of showing how much care, attention, and hard work building a better world really is, and how missing any necessary component in that struggle leads to disaster. (you could argue it's also about the importance of connections/loving relationshps in that process, the lack of which offs Mami; and about the importance of letting your dream to improve the world go beyond yourself, which Homura can't do, keeping her locked in her loop, but I only list these for completeness)
One moment that I enjoyed is from armored adventures. It gets discovered that the super villain living laser is going to die as a result of his own powers. S.H.E.I.L.D. is content with just locking him up and doing nothing about it, but Iron man refuses to let it happen. despite the fact that laser tried to kill him repeatedly, Tony tries to find a way to cure him. This act of kindness is what gets Laser to start his redemption arc and become a hero
One of the things that made War Machine my favorite Super Hero EVER is a quote Rhodey says during his 1° Run on 1994: *¿Why you decided to make good with that suit?* _"Because I want to be there for anyone who needs me, because back in the day Noneone helped me when I needed it & I don't want ANYONE to suffer that too"_
I feel like My Adventures with Superman handles several aspects of this so well- the Clark of that universe is so genuine and it hurts him so much when he sees what he's capable of- when he gets exposed to the "evil superman" trope, it breaks his heart, because he genuinely wants to do and be good just because it's the right thing to do. And seeing other characters realize that is so wonderful as well- the General's realization of that is such a great moment too. Because from his point of view, he's living in a setting like the Synderverse, or any of the other "edgy" superman settings, and suddenly he realizes that it's his cynicism and fear making him think that way, and the kid in front of him really is a truly goodhearted person.
Honestly I think it's good to have variety, to have anti heroes, heroes, pircks with power etc. You simply get tired of what you see the most, if every movie was hero movie it would also get tired. I love both Spider-man and Deadpool but if constantly I saw one or another it would get boring
@@realdragon I guess you just summarized the point of the video then: Anti-heroes / “Edgy” heroes that mostly exist just for hype/money are getting overused these days. Personally, the Boys and Invincible really did this Anti-hero / corrupt hero trope very well. Omni-man was sort of an anti-hero at first, not caring deep down about saving people and seeing it like a waste of time. Then he went straight up villain mode from episode 7 to 8, when he finally stopped hiding his true nature and killing whoever opposes him even a bit… hmm, I guess it’s inaccurate to even call him an “anti-hero” if killing and dominating people have always been his true nature. I don’t know, Omni-man is a special case. I guess one can actually switch between antihero and villain.
@@e-davidi.7354 I think in Invincible they have both tropes, anti-hero/villain and straight up heroes because we see people with super powers who want to help as much as the other side I didn't watch the Boys so I can't say much about it but in Invincible we see fair share of true hero and Omni man
@@realdragon Yeah, I noticed all the tropes. Mark is a hero done right, although too naive at times, trusting strangers too easily just to help AND thinking he even stood a chance against his father. I guess it’s just to show he isn’t perfect.
All Might literally tanking a head-on Blast from AFO, being on his last legs as his power is flickering out of existence. And all that for what you may ask? Just to protect a wounded woman trapped underneath a collapsed building.
From what I understand of him, the entire character of Daredevil is a flawed, violent yet ultimately good man trying to resist his darker impulses and do genuine good because that's what his father taught him. There's a reason he's such good friends with Spider-Man.
I've always hated the idea that "realism" meant "everything sucks, everybody's a piece of shit, and happiness doesn't exist for more than a few seconds." It can feel that way at times, sure, but that's not what is. People can be nice, people can be looking out for one another, and life can be enjoyable.
It's not "okay" if heroes are really heroic, it's NECESSARY. Stories are not just entertainment, they also serve to inspire us. Characters that inspire us to be our best selves are extremely necessary for a moral and healthy society.
When Yuji was talking to Nobara about having to kill the human curses. The whole theme of Jujitsu Kaisen is power and learning to maintain your humanity when obtaining it. People like Sukuna, Gojo, even Maki had to give up a bit of their compassion to obtain the status they are at, but Yuji, despite all of that, still tries to be the good guy and look out for those who can’t
Rorshack is not some ideal people should look to, but neither is really any of the major characters in The Watchmen. But he does definitely have plenty of aspects people can, like being willing to die for his beliefs, and not wanting to go along with the "for the greater good" stuff.
@My_pfp_beats_all_dog_breeds. It actually isn't, it's stated right there in the material. On an in universe newspaper. He also wrote a racist white Supremacist manifesto which we can read some of on that very same page.
Also responding to the Op, he was willing to let the whole world end just because of his own warped and stubborn sense of justice. You can say the same about a lot of villains who are willing to die for their beliefs, doesn't make them all too admirable. My first time reading watchmen I admittedly thought Rorschach was cool and was the best of them, but I like many others, completely misunderstood the point of his character. Helps that I was a teenage boy when I first read it.
@My_pfp_beats_all_dog_breeds. I can believe it, but mostly because I know the general idea of the authors positions, and he definitely didn't want Rorschach to be seen positively due to what he represented. Apparently Dr Manhattan was supposed to be the hero, and he was rather upset people thought the opposite.
@@zachcoats4849 That's one way to say he wasn't willing to let an entire city be murdered to delay nuclear Armageddon. And that's on a number of assumptions: that it would for sure work, that squid thing wouldn't go out of control, and that nuclear annihilation was guaranteed otherwise.
The one of the few anti hero that was properly man was done was jon bernthal’s punisher. His revenge was over in the beginning of the show. The show focuses mainly on him cleaning out the other who were involved but along the way he see how he is affected by his loss and guilt. Having visions of his wife, watching his family and friends get murdered brutally in a nightmare and then nearly getting tortured to death save an innocent man. By the end, we see that his wounds may never truly heal but there may be something ahead for frank.
People sleep on Amazing Spider-Man 2. I’m not going to give a full review, but watch the scenes with the little boy at the beginning and the end of the film. Nothing else needs to be said. THAT is what a hero is.
Yes but it's a slow build to that point, Mark doesn't start there And even in the Comics, i am pretty sure Mark always wants to do good(though i admit i haven't read them)
I honestly like Daredevil a lot, since he’s a lot more human, but he’s still a person that wants to do good but is disadvantaged. He’s still a hero, both on and off his mask with him being a lawyer.
@@CKER-cl8in I think it's because people who try to write anti-heroes focus too much on the anti aspect, while forgetting or outright ignoring the Hero aspect. The result is a character who's just a prick with superpowers, and that's not enjoyable for most people.
As a person wanting to write great stories on fanfiction, I am glad I found this video. This gives some great advice on how I should write my heroes. Make them heroes, not punch bad guy till dead. Thank you and I will try and improve my writing to make good heroes.
That makes me really happy to hear! Thank you so much! Fanfic is a great way many amazing writers learned their craft and I wish you all the success in the world!
This is also the problem with people saying "superheroes should kill" Like yes, Anti-heroes do kill and no one complains but when someone says that "oh superheroes should kill because if they dont then the villains will escape" then they missed a point, they are super HEROES, not murderers
@@dirammyHeroes save ALL lives, including those of villains. Sonic the Hedgehog in the IDW comics is my personal example for a hero whose philosophy has him avoid taking anyone’s lives. He sends his villains away so that they can’t do anything for a period of time, and his value of life is part of his larger belief in freedom of choice for everyone.
Honestly, anti heroes typically work best in contrast to a more traditional hero, as foils to each other. Their differences should challenge the others beliefs and actions. Batman and Red Hood come to mind. While Red Hood’s killing of criminals is morally wrong, he challenges Batman’s no killing rule by pointing out how by leaving those like the Joker alive he has caused the death of many innocents.
Rorschach is not a racist my guy. He's a very outspoken libertarian who also acknowledges the flaw in John Locke's assertion that multiculturalism is in and of itself a culture. Now, we are free to agree or disagree with that assertion but in a world where most superheroes are written with either left-wing or classically liberal views, it's refreshing to see a hero who believes people need something transcendent to kneel down to in order to be one people. I also don't think I would describe him as an antihero. He's just very black and white. Evil is evil and doing good doesn't take away the evil. It's very Old Testament "the penalty for sin is death" kind of thing. He has no interest in understanding how the child rapist became a child rapist. Nuance is a burden to the innocent so why bother with it? I think there's something very cathartic and even praiseworthy in a fictional character who simply puts an end to savagery rather than allowing a "joker" like figure to kill thousands more people every time he escapes. Not advocating for real life vigilantes whether they are lethal or nonlethal. I'm just saying that there's a reason why cops carry guns and the use of them can be deemed righteous if you would permit me to use such a term.
"The use of them can be deemed righteous" depending on the situation. You say nuance is the enemy of the true victim, but this completely non-nuanced take on police enforcement is why they get away with killing so many innocents.
I agree with those videos that we now live in a society where we now worship violence, villains, degenerate behavior, power scaling, evil supermen, and in general putting actually good moral below everything. We need true hero in the media now more than ever as our real world is now full of just horrors. Heroes in the West mainly need to start saving people again. Hell, many Japanese media anti heroes have character progression and having caring sides to them. Plus your right power scaling has also ruined heroes and put actually said a good story telling up for the slaghter in order to compete against the power levels of other media in duck size measuring tournament. The boys represent everything that is wrong with our media and how the superhero ruined my hero academia and invincible represent the kind of storytelling that is needed in order to bring back the heroes we need hell japan in winning in making great heroes and story telling right. The West is only encouraging to be a villain
That's part of why manga and anime are so popular right now I think, especially stuff like One Piece and Demon Slayer that have genuinely pure and good protagonists you can really root for
@-Teague- so true. This is why I think more people need to look up to people like deku and tanjiro while the West wants us to look up to people like lex Luther and the Joker who are not people to look up to hell in the boys Billy butcher is a bad guy in his own right because he also planned on killing the good heroes
I am begging people to watch My Hero Academia actually, the whole thing about that series is heroes just being okay with the systemic rot of hero society because that's just how it is, they are not true heroes.
@@-Teague- I love Demon Slayer but Tanjiro is the opposite of pure, by his own admission he only helps others because he believes there's something in it for him. Does the show present this as pure? Yes. That doesn't mean it is.
Honestly, this whole video sums up what Optimus Prime should’ve been in all the live action movies. Instead of killing every Decepticon in his way very brutally (unless if it’s justified), he should have remorse for the the kills he made. Finding a way to still stop the villain, but not trying to massacre them.
Also in Invincible, the very first scene. Opens with the security guards(who would be disposable casualties in any other show) just talking. They are humanizing themselves by talking about just normal stuff. Then when they are attacked, the definitely not justice league's top priority is evacuating all the civilians. In fact they go easy in the fight until evacuations are complete to avoid risking them. The show is just brilliant at structuring fights in civilian areas. They always acknowledge when they are at risk and show the heros actively trying to save them.
Rengoku from Demon Slayer deserves a mention, because when a demon took over and derailed a train full of passengers he made damn sure there were no casualties. There's also Rock Lee/Might Guy/Might Dai. Talentless tryhards who never really got their due credit from the people around them because everyone in the series loves bootlicking the ninjas born with inherent advantages. Makes sense though: you can't really give these guys props for their hard work and dedication without admitting that you need to tighten up. However, the anime hero that gets the *least* amount of credit due is The Great Saiyaman. He often gets ridiculed by both the cast and fans but he's also out there directly fighting for the people. Not for fun. Not to be the strongest. Gohan made it a point to become a superhero the first time he saw a crime being committed and you'd think everyone would be more appreciative *given what was walking around seven years ago* .
Something that I've grown to love is when superheroes actually try to talk and reason with the villain before resorting to violence. Superman and even Batman did it often in the DCAU, and other heroes like Static and Flash did it as well. The only times when they don't are either when the villain is about to hurt someone or it's someone that they know can't be resoned with. I also love it when heroes actually try to get help for the villains instead of just tossing them in jail and being done with them. Spider-Man is a good example of this.
I think a lot of the problem with how superheroes are written today is the accumulation of rewrites, retcons, and resets of many of these characters stories and defining character traits that's left them muddied up. Nowadays someone like Batman isn't a man traumatized as a boy and left in the dark only to use it to protect and guide those out of it, but a 300 IQ giga brain contingency plan man that is somehow a bigger threat to himself and the people he cares for than even Joker.
I’m kind of surprised you didn’t bring up the DeadPool movies because not only is DeadPool an anti-hero, it’s one of the few MCU properties I can think of that specifically features almost every lacking yet positive superhero movie aspect mentioned in this video.
Thank you! THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS! Like I'm sorry but this "thread" of anti-hero (as much I love them myself, such as Punisher ((most Netflix Punisher)) to Red Hood ) is nothing more of either poorly written or cash grab market tool to the "realism" Superhero take (in which, yes, I enjoy the Boys but I don't think it really "fresh" the Superhero gerne but more of making all only about Fighting and cool-design than more of character depth, but Homelander is the best villain but WISHED many people WOULD stop thinking he could win EVERY fight or something). I understand that, yes, the World or IRL is not always or is, Black or White. It's all gray to barely things being Right or Wrong. But...to be honest...half of Marvel to DC HAVE, and again, HAVE done gray stories of icon characters but STILL showed that, even in the end, heroes ALWAYS been Heroic. Even IF they lose or win. There's NOTHING wrong of making heroes/heroines being heroic to inspire or teach us a lesson or NEVER giving up if the odds are against you or when the going is tough. I'm just...getting so sick and tired of this, "Realism" take on the Superhero gerne or even needless violence because it's "cool or epic" no no no. Not ALL fights scenes or the battles is not WHY the fight, but WHAT are they fighting for or saying. THAT what made fight scenes of the earlier comics to early movies made in the past to even back in 2010s. But now...EVERYONE trying to be a copy of "Watchmen" or heroes are not always One-Dimensional or not "always" good. Which again, I'm NOT saying makes heroes "be good" but DO GOOD. You can have an hero being a prick or jerk but his/her's actions CAN show they have heart, morals, goals to even showing their either good-side, heroic side or simply...their HUMAN side. What we TRULY lacking is this...We're missing on the HUMANITY of Superheroes. They may be fictional but even fictional they STILL can have flaws that WE the viewers CAN relate than thinking things like blood, gore, sex and unnecessary to wacky violence in every media that shows the "reality" to which I say is bull and more of excuse of making now "Watchmen" copycats to now bad edgy-amateur writings for a cash grab.
One of the things that really solidified Spider-Man as the greatest superhero for me as a wee lad was playing Spider-Man 2 for the gamecube. The game makes you spend a lot of time just...helping people, construction workers who slipped, injured people ambulances can't get to, kids lost balloons, random muggings, and these would still happen next to you during the big important story missions at random. It really made me feel what "Friendly neighborhood Spider-Man" meant to be in the moment doing those things, and to still feel the need to stop and do them despite the personal important mission at hand. Nowadays the Raimi movies are looked back on as the glory days of the character, one of the reasons touted being that he actually does hero stuff besides the big movie villain. (the same thing kinda happened for me with Krillin in the story mode of Budokai Tenkaichi 2 bro was ALWAYS there for just about every single fight all story and had the level ups to prove it. Went from a character I liked to an all time favorite.) But nowadays there's also so many people obsessed with "When Spider-Man stops telling jokes you know you're fucked." or "Spider-Man doesn't kill. That's why I'm going to fight you as Peter Parker today." and just in general latching on to his darkest moments and things like when Doc Oc stole his body and punched Scorpions jaw off. Those used to be small fun facts, a joke about how he had a cold and couldn't talk so when he showed up and didn't joke the villains just surrendered. So many people now treat him less like the local guy who just wants to help because he knows he can and more like a messed up power fantasy. The curse of his explosion in popularity online the last like 5 or 6 years. I want to go back to Spider-Man threads as a derailing the subject joke. He's supposed to be funny, human, and helpful. Really gotta thank the Spider-verse movies for really nailing Peter so well, even in the state of being aged and jaded and TRYING to walk away to deal with his own problems he just can't help but try to save people and guide Miles, and for being one of possibly the most well crafted passing of the torch stories ever, it's what Miles deserves. Can't wait for the third movie.
I think superheroes saving people is very important to superheroes. Spider-Man especially. Spider-Man went out of his way to stop a kid from becoming a criminal and killing a cop. He decided to talk to him and bring him back to his dad. JMS is very good at this.
Zack Snyder has done irreparable damage to the superhero genre. He tried adapting characters and stories he didn’t understand and that resulted in misrepresentation of characters like Superman and Batman not thinking twice before killing. His Watchmen film glorified vigilantes when Alan Moore’s graphic novel was the exact opposite of that. The guy is a hack.
@@JDog2656 No, it did not. I'm really quite amazed how most of the internet has gaslit themselves into thinking the vastly inferior cut of the Justice League movie was somehow a massive improvement. Spyderhuntz is right, Zach Snyder is a hack.
Keaton’s Batman was killing people, Batman in the comics didn’t even start out with the no killing rule, and other multiverse versions of him kill people. There’s nothing wrong with adapting a Batman that kills.
In my opinions, Anti-Heroes are satured now. I wanna see more stories about Anti-Villains. The likes of Sandman from Spiderman 3, someone like Thanos, or even something like Garou from OPM. Because I actually wanna see what kind of stories would come out if we gave focus to Anti-Villains, or even made a movie/show with an Anti-Villain as the main character.
All Might from My Hero Acdemia is basically the Ideal Superhero. What Superman is at his finest (All Star, Up in the sky, Death of Superman) Every hero student is well a good person. Deku is Kamala Khan done right. He wants to be hero like his inspiration (who is actually likeable unlike Captain Karen) not because he wants to impress a girl or to get popular, but because he geniunly wants to save people. Which was refershing to see in 2020 ( when I first saw mha)
My favorite heroic moment is all might vs all for one when he beats him he stands triumphant as a symbol of peace and points towards everyone and inspires everyone to become a hero and to be good. That scene was soo goood
Train scene Spider-Man 2, not only does our hero get the strength to fight again, but he’s not even the hero there, people stand up for him, they make sure he’s okay before he can keep on going, and while they fail, they try, and so does he
This is why I loved the New 52 film The Death of Superman so much. It actually humanized Superman AND had the Justice League, especially Superman, acting like heroes. The one scene that still makes me choke is when he saves a kid, during a dangerous battle, who was trying to save his gameboy and guess what, Supes even saved his gameboy. I always resonate with superheroes more when they do even small things like these than say, stopping an alien invasion or fighting a galactic tyrant or something. It's fun and all, but being grounded and seeing these heroes actually helping people is what sticks with you.
I agree. The problem is that Invincible/Mark is absolutely NOT the poster child for more superheroic characters. He's not even the poster child for being at least above average in terms of being competent and thinking ahead.
Gosh what a refreshing video. It’s the same way I believe it’s fully okay if Villains are actually irredeemable evils, not sympathetic antagonists. The 2010s gave a rise to a lot of Nietzsche influenced, very cynical if not somewhat nihilistic media that confounded fans unto what’s “ good” or “ effective”. Nobody’s truly good or bad, but the heroes aren’t really heroes and the villains aren’t really villains. Everyone’s sympathetic. But it gets stale. As humans we know what it is to be virtuous, and what most would subscribe as evil, and we instinctively gravitate towards or against these things in real life. Therefore, why should they be exempt from story even if they are exaggerations? Stories aren’t only used for realism, so having a Boy Scout beat the Mastermind is very effective in fiction IMO.
I hate to correct you but Rorscach was not a Klansman or affiliated with the Klan at all, but the newspaper he wrote to was. Even when asked about this question, Alan Moore said “It doesn’t matter because he’s dead. What does matter is that you can say he was, and I can say he wasn’t, and we can both have a compelling argument.” I’m not saying Rorschach wasn’t a reactionary or a misogynist (which are very apparent in the comics) I just wanted to make that clear
Well it may not have been much in the grand scheme, but in Aquaman 2018, Arthur saved a submarine crew attacked by pirates, escorted people into shelter, lifted rubble from a girl’s father and tackled a bell from crushing her. Plus one of the reasons he went after Orm at the end battle was to keep casualties at bay at Mera’s counsel. His arc started with him as a loner who occasionally does good to those he seems worthy, unconnected to anyone aside from his dad. It ends with him taking on the mantle of king to connect the two worlds to protect all those living in either land or sea.
Rorschach is was never a remember the KKK that was a bunch of dumb racists reading a fake version of his journal and the fact that you referenced that terribly written show as a source of this it's sad because that show needs to be forgotten and ignored like that Wonder Woman pilot that never got made into a full show but beyond that I actually agree with what you said yeah I Want More Heroes being Heroes not trying to be anti heroes if I want Frank Castle I'll go read or watch Frank Castle
"Nova Express makes many sneering references to costumed heroes as direct descendants of the Ku Klux Klan, but might I point out that despite what some might view as their later excesses, the Klan originally came into being because decent people had perfectly reasonable fears for the safety of their persons and belongings when forced into proximity with people from a culture far less morally advanced." -Rorschach
@@zachcoats4849 1 page and panel of Rorschach being racist or saying that 2 i know why he was made a petty dig at the objectivist hero the question and his creator just too bad you wouldn't know that unless you were told or looked it up which says a lot
Alan is a communist and a moral relativist, he's a good writer but legitimately does not have any moral highground. Also it's kinda funny seeing people try to claim that you're not allowed to have a different interpretation of a character named after a rorschach test.
I've recently started watching Jujutsu Kaisen, and a heroic moment that came to mind for me was when the main trio were sent into a detention center to locate (not rescue or even retrieve) a handful of inmates who were trapped inside with an extremely dangerous curse. Before they went in, a distraught mother begs them to help her son. They find the inmates dead and mangled, including the mother's son, right before the curse shows itself, and they're woefully outmatched against it. Even though he had to run for his life, Fushiguro tore the name tag off the son's uniform so that he could give it to the mother later. He couldn't save anyone, but he still did what he could to bring some comfort to a grieving mother.
The one moment that sticks with me? I reckon it's the most quintessential superhero moment ever produced. Superman: the Movie, where rather than some massive action setpiece, rather than stopping some heinous villains or catching a falling plane, Superman takes the time out of his night to get the cat out of the tree and stop to say hello to a little girl. Superheroes care, and when you care that much, no job is too small.
Rorshach was not a klansman in the comic? The reason people relate to rorshach and like him is because he is the only character who refuses to break his principles.
The most you could say was that he read a somewhat kkk-aligned newspaper or something and was kinda bigoted. But compared to basically every other main character he's the only one who's an actual hero, who valued the lives of the innocent and stood up for what was right instead of just apathetically letting people die for "the greater good". The show from a few years ago is dogshit and doesn't reflect the actual characters (not to mention straight up making up events, lmao there was no klan airforce in the 20s), and the Snyder movie was basically a shot-for-shot copy of the comic, just with a slightly different mass murder sequence (perpetuated by the character who mind you is Moore's literal golden boy).
@94 "instead of just apathetically letting people die for "the greater good"" Did we read the same comic? Nobody "let" Ozymandias pull off his plan. He outsmarted the others by carrying it out before anyone could get close to him. What did you want the heroes to do, expose the plot after it already happened? That could start a nuclear war that would make Ozymandias' body count look like a border skirmish. Telling the world about it wouldn't bring back the dead, only add to it. I don't know why so many fans forget that part. Rorschach killed himself by proxy because he couldn't accept that it was better to let the world be tricked for a while than kill them all for a truth that wouldn't matter if it ended up revealed. He's not a hero and he'd reject the label anyway. He stopped caring about protecting the innocent when he saw how that girl died; it was only about punishing the guilty to him after that, which isn't the same thing. Rorschach was a deconstruction of that kind of hero who never compromises his principles, like Batman being unwilling to kill the Joker despite all the death he keeps causing. Sometimes, you have to choose between your principles and being a hero. Rorschach chose the former and abdicated the latter.
Rorschach was inspired by heroes like The Question and Mr A. Moore thinks that the world is grayer than it really is so hates those types of objectivist heroes and painted Rorschach as a strawman.
If by "no one" you mean biased MCU fanboys then yeah. Everyone else not only remembered it, but they made sure that Real third part of his (Superman's) trilogy Will be released and also financed bunch of real life charities and personally helped to some of each other, including director of that trilogy. Frankly DCEU Superman doesn't need admiration from dishonest people who can't even keep act straight while discussing superhero media without deliberately lying.
First thing that came to mind was back when I watched the CW's Flash show, there was one episode early on that opens with the Flash saving a woman with a baby from a car crash, then the episode moves on to the usual stuff. But I remember that moment because it's kinda the one time in the show when he, not only is acting heroic in the traditional sense but also that he's helping just some random person, that show they almost never interact with or help just random normal people
Great video, but I kinda feel like you misunderstand anti-heroes a bit. They aren't just edgy killers; they represent a philosophical discussion between what is objectively right and what is objectively wrong. A hero's compassion is always great, especially towards their enemies, but most of the time, their enemies don't share their compassion, and almost everytime they extend them an olive branch for redemption, they use that branch to strangle an innocent person. By accident they create a status quo, where they dispatch the enemy and put them behind bars, so they can break out again and kill more people. Anti-heroes are the opposite of this status quo, they understand that there are people beyond redemption, and a good anti-hero never kills the innocent. They want the same thing as the hero but get it in different ways.
It was one aspect of Moore's Watchmen that goes largely unnoticed: Most of the criminals that the costumed vigilantes handed over to the police went to prison *and stayed in prison*, not a cycle of break out, break laws, break their own face on the hero's fist. The original Nite Owl comments about one of the people he arrested actually reforming and starting a new life after serving out their sentence. Moloch had spent the better part of his life in prison, and just wanted to be left in peace. The costumed crime-fighters were just people, as were the criminals they fought. Some better, some worse, but altogether flawed; all flawed together. The sort of setting where choosing to do good was not a high bar to clear, but never giving up on doing good was a long race without certainty of success.
@@Oddmanoutre Definitely because my issue with Moore was that he wanted us to hate Rorschach but didn't present a better alternative to him at least from the main cast. I like that the story addresses the villains trying to make an effort to be decent people.
@@badconnection4383 I felt that Moore was trying to express the same message that Frank Miller used in 'Kick-Ass': namely, vigilantism places a highly corrupting power in the hands of ordinary people, power that is unchecked by the public the vigilantes claim to be protecting. But Frank being Frank, he made his story into a diatribe against comic book nerds.
@@Oddmanoutre I guess a message like that should always be about the intent, but you aren't careful than you'll have people rooting for your supposed villain of the story.
Favorite heroic moment? Superman getting the cat from the tree for the little girl. So simple but it tells us so much about him, that no act of kindness, no matter how small, is worth doing.
For me, my favorite moment is episode 8 of One Punch man after all the other heros are defeated, Mumen Rider, a C class hero with nothing but a bicycle steps in to save the bystanders. Something that could have easily been played off as a gag is instead treated with the upmost sincerity. He knows he is no match and still stands his ground and inspires the bystanders to have hope again, because that is what it means to be a hero.
The only thing i disagree with was the Roarcach thing, how was he a klansmen/racist in the movie at all? (the show doesn't count). Even in the og novel i don't think it really showed he was like that, yeah it said he was like that but actions speak louder then words. He murders rap*ts and p3dos and child killers, sure hes the not greatest guy ever and not someone you should look up to but hes not a "bad guy" most people would want those people to be gone and there's nothing wrong with that. He hated the idea of Ozymandius' "world peace" and there is a great debate on wether its truly right or wrong.
I fundamentally agree with your video, but I think X-Men would take a pass. If you're a fan of the older Comics, especially the Chris Claremont days they never thought of themselves as superheroes. They were not usually trying to save the world they would use the Jet and Suits to try and rescue mutants that were being attacked. They only went up against either anti-mutant groups or mutant extremist groups intended to avoid jumping into every superhero conflict.
Ive said it once, I'll say it again; let your villains be Villains and let your heroes be Heroes. Morally grey characters are fine here and there but filling an entire story with them can be kinda dull. like the color grey.
Reminds me of that one episode of Justice League where the heroes got to visit an alternative universe where Superman snapped and the League followed to turn to tyranny and enforce peace. There was that one scene where two Batmen stop at a red light. The tyrant Batman is confused while the good Batman shows the flaws of their power. Simple moment in a car but really sticks.
Real shit im a fan of comic book fan in all media both dc & marvel but honestly I do at times film that superhero fatigue but thats only for mid tier/lazy cgi spectales but shows like invincible and the boys have somewhat peaked my intrest back up for more alternative outakes of the superhero genre
Most "hero" movies aren't even titled nor promoted as hero movies. That's why they aren't all heroic. It's not about being edgy, it's about making something different. It's interesting people here are noticing the trend of a lot of "heroes" seemingly being less heroic, without acknowledging the fact that for the most part heroes have been a thing in media, they all have been participating in the trend of "heroicness" and moral clarity. And these years anti-heroes and other genres of "super" stories have been popularized more because we already got a lot of the other stuff. It's just my opinion, but I think the argument of super powered characters and stories having to be more heroic is a bit too rigid. Just let people make the super stories they want, both with heroes and other kind of characters. Not everything has to be heroic.
Anyone remember that scene of Batman in the Justice League Unlimited series where he sat with a dying villain called Ace? That scene was amazing because he sat with her a poor girl who died because of the experiment she was placed under and the mental toll it took on her mind, Batman comforted her till she died making her go out knowing she was safe and ok.
Funny enough, Yu Yu Hakusho, Bleach, Full Metal Alchemist, which are superhero esque comic books and animated series have the characters occasionally kill or brutalize the villain, also always jump in to save people or avenge the innocent and pushovers. Of course Japan has a fascination with keeping the status quo and do good for others sake as part of the community. Kid Cosmic, an animated series of recent years, has the titulat character learn that the glitz and glamour of superheros is fake. As he said it being a hero is not forming a fist, it's extending a hand.
Spider-Man homecoming when he goes to stop the vulture choosing to be responsible and stop the vulture from hurting other even it means he has no backup
This is a really good take on heroes! It has really made me relook at my favorites. I don’t think there is anything wrong with anti heroes but they do need to be written better given more redemption. They need still be human. Awesome take though I hope we get a movie soon about a more human hero.
Frankly, I feel this argument is interesting when it comes to the modern day. Especially when it involves products made in a country where things like “stand your ground” and the death penalty vary from place to place. Stuff like “should Batman kill the joker” gets muddied when people go “why hasn’t the state done so?” Honestly, as an X men fan, where Death has been a revolving door for decades, I can see why the impact of killing diminished. Especially when it comes to a deluge of characters like Domino, Cable, Feral etc who had a lot of the 90’s edge. However, I do like the balance and variety of characters that do so. And it’s to be expected. When you have a franchise where anyone who is a mutant will be hit, drafted in etc, you will have that variety. From characters like Threnody whose powers are based on the end of life that have twisted their aspect on life, to the valiant and true heroes like Cannonball and the new mutants, there’s a bunch. Although, they do factor in that sometimes it isn’t cut and dry. Especially with characters like Dust where survival was necessary but show that, in solidarity, they don’t need to do that. One of my favourites would probably be Emma Frost, especially during and after the Morrison run. She tries to be better (unless the writers assassinate her character in Inhumans vs X men) as an example to her students although the severity of how she handles things is dubious. Things like taking X23’s abuser, Kimura, and wiping away the memories of the only person who loved her; Her grandmother, are dark but do show that the threat is enough to deter people. When in Marauders, she puts a trigger into some anti-mutant mercenaries to make them feel very ill when they think about causing violence to those who they see as lesser (race, disability, gender identity etc). Is it a little immoral? Yes. Is it stopping people from getting hurt by these people without killing them? Yes. I’d also like to say that a lot of the hero stories we do get with stuff like the Avengers, apocalyptic level events and the like do also skew things one way or another. And this push towards heroes being crueller in their methods does also cause pushback in the opposite direction when it comes to shows and movies where it seems like villains can commit the most dastardly atrocities, up to and including mass extinction and attempted genocide, and, if the product doesn’t believe in incarceration, result in such atrocities being met with a a handshake and a place on the team.
Yall remember Danny Phantom? There was a not so short stretch of the show when people hated and feared him for being a hero, yet he persisted anyway because some one had to deal with the ghosts. And unlike Spider-Man Danny never had an uncle Ben moment.
I LOVE Danny Phantom. And you’re right, he was a kid trying to fight ghosts to save people even when everyone feared him. He never had to lose loved ones or any of that and, the one time it happened, he turned evil. The Ultimate Enemy showcased the importance of Danny’s family and friends, even Mr. Lancer, in how they keep Danny in the line of good. You kill any one of them and Danny will stray from the line of good. The only other character I’ve seen in comic books that showcase the importance of family and friends in the heroes’ lives to that extent is Damian Wayne.
That was a good show
@@matityaloran9157yup
He literally had the opposite of an uncle Ben 🤣
But then again, his parents were kinda hero-ish? In principle at least 💯
💯💯
This is why the old Justice League show was SO GOOD. The heroes actually acted like heroes.
The scene with the flash and his mentally ill supervillain was just amazing
Any old cartoon version is "so good"
because: 1) you watched it as a kid (or just a fake nostalgia poser) 2) due to censorship they had to cut any too controversial moments, that's why Batman punching Joker from a train or Joker left in a plane that next moment blows up goes unnoticed by next episode, that's why public fears Superman not purely because of his powers (like they did in original and in reboot comics in the 90s prequel issues where Clark wasn't "Superman" yet) but because he once was controlled by Darkseid and ASSumingly killed a lots of good army men which is why his friend Dr Hamilton became his ex friend and created Doomsday in this version, that's why Batman became absolitist with absolutely 0 hypocrital moment about him like it was in comics before 1941 censorship and some time past early 60sm
@@FirstnameLastname-my7bz redditor
@@FirstnameLastname-my7bz I don't think that the old Justice League was good because of nostalgia. I used to watch Thomas the freaking Tank Engine as a kid, yet THAT isn't what I would consider a "cinematic masterpiece..." I say Justice League is good because it IS good. Its incredibly well written, is actually entertaining, and teaches good lessons.
I'm not some idiot who only cares about dumb nostalgia. In fact, it annoys me to no end when people obsess over nostalgia.
Censorship isn't always a bad thing. A show isn't better for having excessive violence. It doesn't make it more "adult" in fact usually swearing, violence, and sex makes a show feel _less_ mature. The superhero TV shows like Justice League and Batman are _better_ because of censorship. Because instead of just showing us acts of violence, they use storytelling and clever dialogue to get the idea across in a much more impactful way. Because what we picture in our imaginations is wayyy more dark than whatever they could possibly show on-screen.
Censorship done properly can still tell impactful stories that adults can enjoy, while still being suitable and safe for children.
@@lasercraft32 no it's still censorship and still cutting corners
Especially hilarious to see this mindset from invincible fans.
I’ll always think of Steve Rodgers jumping on the grenade, no fear, no hesitation, ready to sacrifice himself for people that never truly saw his value
The serum made him Captain America but the real superhero was always Steve
And that moment basically sums up why he was the one picked to be the first recipient of the treatment.
"He's still skinny" -that one general dude
Are there any Cap comic runs that feel like MCU Cap? US comic art usually puts me off but hey, if the story is good...
I love that kind and selfless Steve Chris Evans gave us.
The serum gave Captain America the tools he needed.
Deku not letting go of Eri for anything. Performing in the school festival just to get a smile out of her.
Batman sitting with Ace. No big fight just holding a frightened girls hand.
Spiderman saving that train full of people even if it meant tearing his arms off.
Batman willing to pay the ultimate price with 0 hesitation to save the island of people and superman.
These are the most heroic moments that stay with me.
THIS BOZO THINKING BOKU NO PICO ADACEMIA as a good example 🤡
Isn't the same Manga where if you cannot be a Hero if you does not have Powers, Worse, apparently in that universe being a Hero is about Being Famous & Not saving people
🤮
@ArcTrooperRod-269 It's a theme. Have you watched the show? That is literally what the stain arc is about
The whole festival arc was basically that. I'm pretty sure Gentle Criminal and La Brava made it clear they were only going to do a b*mb scare(thus stopping the festival) before heading out, but Deku still took it as seriously as he did against Overhaul. Because despite the lower stakes, he still had the same goal of saving Eri from her trauma.
Batman punching the shit out of robin for almost killing green latern was very memorable to me
@@Lucien_M That was one of my personal favorites. I wish Gentle would return and get a second chance at being a hero... Dude was an idiot, but had such a good heart.
Flash talking with the trickster in Justice League the animated series I feel captures this amazingly. Orion and Batman were ready to break this guy in half because "Oh it's a villain" but Flash knew he wasn't just a criminal, he was a man with a sickness and needed to be treated, not hurt. There's a reason flash is the heart of the league
Actually, no orion was the only one who wanted to beat the info out of him, and batman was the one to tell him to let the flash deal with the trickster his own way.
@@noctisastrum7495 exactly, don't forget when batman sat with a dieing girl, who knew she was dieing. Just because she was scared.
I loved how Bats was the master of understanding all of his teammates. Constantly Telling Orion off for being judgmental throughout the episodes knowing Flash had his home turf completely under control, or the entirety of him recruiting Green Arrow, or recruiting The Question to get answers about Cadmus.
No,no. That's not how it went down. The Trickster said "Ill never rat out my partners." Batman "Orion" in a very ommomuse way. Orion grabs Trickster "Talk, while you still have a jaw," and that's when Flash steps in. Only then does Batman back off. Fyi I don't think Batman would'velet Orion hurt him to bad but the plan was obviously to beat it out of him@noctisastrum7495
Yeah if you pay attention to Batman in that episode, it's obvious he has alot of respect for how flash does things. For One, he reluctantly agrees to attend the Museum opening. Some both Flash and Orion are surprised about. And second, there's a scene we're Orion is complaining about everyone praising Flash as a hero even though he wastes time caring about villains like Trickster and doing tasks for regular people and he doesn't understand why that makes Flash a hero
Batman response "No, you don't understand"
“Why didn't superman just grab her taking her to where she needs to be”
Yeah and that definitely wouldn't result in the girl committing it in some other way.
@eleanorrigby41
to be fair Lois Lane does that like every few weeks.
That tweet really pissed me the hell off
The problem is not that 'This lady is going to jump off a building' it's that 'this lady _Wants_ to jump off a building'
@@Emily12471 i had a son of superman oc that asked him what he would do if she did jump
@@Maskedmenace8267what was superman's answer?
Me no care mental me hero me save you now why you no feel save? What mean it no solve problem??
"Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker."
-C. S. Lewis
When everyone is subversive nobody will be subversive.
Do you know what subversive means? Being subversive is like being unique or special, the trend doesn't diminish its value.
@@nadie887 too much subversive content of the same type creates a new trend, which itself can be subverted, which is the meaning of the original comment.
It quite literally stops being subversive over time if more and more stories copy the formula, and subversiveness is definitely part of a story's value
Well put
@@kirtil5177 No it doesn't. "Subversive" means it changes the formula, and creates something unique out of a trend. By definition it cannot become a trend in itself.
It's like saying "If everybody is special, no one is". That is wrong because the concept of being special is being different, so it cannot follow a "trend" like you say.
Also, stories of super powered characters that aren't exactly heroic come in all shapes, forms and themes. It's not just a "trend". Making a super powered story that isn't like the rest in theme is in itself subversive. "Non-heroic supers" isn't a trend, or a copy. It's literally the opposite. It's making something different.
Plus the concept of super-heroes is a massively bigger trend that has being going on for a century now with much more popularity. That isn't subversive now, is it?
@@nadie887 if it's a trend it's no longer subversive
I love my Adventure with Superman cuz it does a great job of proving why people can't see Clark as Superman. Clark is a genuine, nerdy and clumsy boy scout who is awkward and introverted. This is who he is, he puts on a cape and gets the confidence to stand upright and be a symbol but he will still not stick around to have conversations with police and criminals. He'll rather say something profound and with good intention to tell people to be better and then fly away unless it's a 1-on-1 with someone who needs it. Superman is the act and disguies not Clark Kent. Barry Allen on the other hand loves people but as Barry he is often ignored. As the Flash he will have an hour convo about the football with the police after he stopped the crime
One moment that stuck with me was the Justice League episode “Tabula Rasa.” Martian Manhunter tries to track down Lex Luthor via telepathy but ends up hearing everyone else’s thoughts. Disgusted by what he’s heard he goes into the forest and reassumes his Martian form, wondering just what his place on Earth is and who he’s fighting for.
Then a group of people are nearby searching for a scared little girl who’s lost in the forest. One guy even thinks, “I don’t even know the kid, but I know how I’d feel if she was MY daughter.” Then everyone else is thinking about finding her.
He finds her, transforms back into his more heroic look, brings her to the search party then vanishes.
The icing on top of this is Wonder Woman telling him, “You’re not getting away that easily.” Then they hug before helping the rest of the League against AMAZO.
During my ongoing rewatch of Justice League, that moment made me cry. Always does. The private thoughts of some random guy inspired one of the world's greatest superheroes. That boundless capacity for good in people is exactly what we're fighting for.
The common humanity brought out by times of crisis just got to me, man.
Manhunter's reaction to everyone's thoughts shows that the writers think badly of people in general (except for themselves, of course). The average person is just normal. A decent, good person who is thinking about what he wants to eat or what game to play or book to read.
God I fucking _love_ Martian Manhunter. It makes me so upset that he's barely used well anymore for some reason.
One moment that will always resonate with me is a scene from gerry duggan's run of Deadpool. Wade stops a girl from committing suicide, he takes her around town to cheer her up and afterward drops her off at a hospital so that she can get help. The reason that this resonates with me so much is that it really shows how beneath all the murder and crazy, he is still human. If a hero like Deadpool can have those moments, all heroes should.
I love the moment in Rick Remenders run on X-force where they find out Apokalypse who they were sent to assassinate is actually a baby, and deadpool who's healing factor is currently not working is the first one to put himself between the team and the baby saying they would have to go through him first.
I love it when deadpool has an actaul moral compass, I think it is far more compelling. Even if he is still a mercenary.
Heroes acting like a hero? How strange…
NO IT HAS TO BE DARK AND GRITTY. I NEED MY HEROS MORALLY GREY RAAAAAAA
@@He-who-wakesAND WE MUST NOT FORGET TO ADD JOKES AND REFERENCE ALL THE OTHER SUPERHEROES IN OUR CINEMATIC UNIVERSE EVERYWHERE TOO.
Honestly I feel like its due to the whole love for villains and anti heroes hype lol. People wanna be philosophical and say "i always liked the villains more" or "a villain would sacrifice everything for you" as of they haven't heard of super villains sacrificing their own kids for world domination lol. Its kinda funny. For them the anti hero or morally Grey is basically a villain who is hot and dateable. Nothing wrong with liking things or having fun but it's just silly😂 ppl also wanna be diff and say "happy endings SUCK" as if happiness isn't just as real and possible as tragedy. I love happy endings and I love heroes. I wanna see heros win fairly and prove their victory. I want people to be happy cuz i am already a miserable person.
@@He-who-wakes Hey! Acting like a child won't get you anywhere. Plus, dark and gritty characters usually tend to be more interesting, realistic and grounded than your typical, super-perfect, never-wrong, heroic knight-in-shining-armor with zero flaws- morally, spiritually and physically.
@@killme5630 Sorry that people like different things than you do, mister austrian painter.
A few of the most heroic scenes that stood out to me:
- The aftermath of when Peter stops the train in Spider-Man 2, the civilians return the favour of him saving them by stopping him from falling and promising to keep his identity a secret, even willing to protect him from Doc Ock when he comes back despite being obviously outmatched.
- Mumen Rider challenging the Deep Sea King in One Punch Man - we all know he had no chance of winning, but he still puts his life on the line in an attempt to protect the public, even if the scene tried to make it comedic with how easily he got knocked out it was also badass and admirable at the same time, Mumen Rider more than demonstrated that he had the heart of a hero despite his lack of physical strength.
- Omni-Man saving the Thraxans from the black hole just as he was attempting to end his own life the same way. His time on Earth had changed him enough to the point that he felt genuine compassion for what he would have considered lesser beings, and put their safety before his own self deletion. Not only that, but his immediate instinct after returning them home was to fly away without needing any credit for the good deed, before they stopped him to invite him to stay.
With the Mumen Rider one, I liked the way Saitama handled it. He, of course, beats the Sea King and makes it look effortless, so for a moment the crowd of civilians that M.R. was fighting for start thinking of Rider as not being anything special or heroic - that he was someone pretending, essentially. And Saitama sees this and knows he could gain the public's adoration at Rider's expense, but instead of accepting it, he makes it so Rider and the other heroes get the (well-deserved) credit. He sees what a hero is and should be and knows it's not really himself, at least not at that point, and the crowd celebrates that.
@@GenerusCrow Mumen Rider is just That Guy.
He's the absolute man, probably the best guy in OPM
I used to live in a rather elitist neighborhood. My parents moved there briefly, because my father had a job that allowed us to afford to at the time, but the residents of that neighborhood weren't all that welcoming of us. I remember a specific encounter I had with one particular man, who had seen me rent a Spiderman video from a store once.
"You really need to learn to grow up," he said. "Heroes aren't real; in the real world, it's survival of the fittest, where everyone else is out for themselves. It's eat or be eaten, so if you aren't prepared to bring others down for your own sake, you had best get out of the way for the ones who are."
He was saying to me, who was a kid at the time. A kid! And the worst part was that the store was not empty. No one called him out on it. No one challenged him, and they wouldn't meet me in the eye after that.
Thirty years later, those words still echo in my mind, and I can't help but feel like this is the reason why heroes aren't heroes these days. Because the people who make these shows and movies struggle to believe in them as they go about trying to outmaneuver and/or devour their co-workers and rivals and advance their own careers. Always seeing the evil around them, but not in themselves.
😢 Thats awful, sadly he needed to take his own advice telling this to a child btw. Yes, there are assholes out there but also kind ppl as well. Sadly this prick took whatever issue he had in life and made it your problem.
We have a word for people like that guy, and people like what that guy described. It’s “psychopath.”
For a man who lives in the "real-world", he sure loves to talk like a fictional character lmao
He must have had a very pathetic life if he truly believes that there’s not a single person in the world that help another person because they want to, or he believes that every act of good have some secret selfish plan behind it because that is what’s he is like.
"Since it is so likely that [children] will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage. Otherwise you are making their destiny not brighter but darker."
-C. S. Lewis
I just love this back and forth. I'm just 25 and i've seen the public going from "we want more dark and gritty" to "we want more happy and inspiring material" in all sorts of media at least 3 times. It's so dumb
Honestly this is what I also think, while the video is good Im just so tired of people going back to back on such topics
I don’t think being dark and gritty and being inspiring are mutually exclusive
@@thebcwonder4850 For the average person Dark and gritty means everyone bad and awful and cynicism everywhere and happy and inspiring is feels good happy ending and pleasant and good people. And because of the story of comics and super hero stuff that goes up 300%, you can't make batman too soft or not tragic otherwise everyone loses it because he's supposed to be this on the brink of insanity and keeping together by sheer stoicism and dicipline. You can't make superman have any flaw otherwise people lose it because he's supposed to be alien jesus boyscout and idealism incarnated
We need variety in storytelling. Not going one way over the other. People can have their preferences but there’s great stories that are dark and gritty. And great stories that are inspiring and hopeful. And both of them should exist.
@@deadmeme7030 If only more stopped to think about that, 99% don't think about content saturation and just try to justify why one is better than the other or whatever.
The reason why it works for venom being an antihero is that by he’s very nature his species I kind of Psychopathic killers. He happens just to be redeemed by Eddie to want to do a good instead of just eating everyone.
Unless we’re talking comics in which the Klyntar are actually a very peaceful symbiotic species and only become evil psychotic killers when they bond with unstable people like Eddie Brock and the suit’s shared hatred of Spiderman, and Cletus Kasaday and his… well… psychotic murdering
Controversial take, but Venom turning good worked better when Flash Thompson was Agent Venom because he was teaching Venom good morals from Peter Parker and being inspired by Spider-Man. Flash was already a hero and was teaching that to venom. It may work in media, but imagine how better it would’ve been had Flash was injected with venom like in the comics and teaching it to venom?
@@randomolisher the Klyntar were not peaceful. They were subject to their host and were created by Knull to dominate the universe tho this was a retcon
@@zzodysseuszzThis was how it was in the original, better version. And plus the Klyntar now are better under Eddie.
@@youngbounty1394Eddie Brock is a irresponsible and jealous character at heart, he even becomes Toxin when flash gets the symbiote, so it does kinda makes sense for Flash to teach it good values. And it wasn’t Eddie that corrupted the Symbiote, it was Peter. This is one of the reasons I hate the Knull retcon and modern renditions of Venom and Carnage. It works way better if we address Peter’s issues and Venom is a reflection of his anger and his worse side. It actually makes Venom caused by Peter and makes him have to take responsibility and fix the issue he caused. Instead of “ooo evil spooky goop monster want to kill spider” like that god awful insomniac version did
I'm 35 and I shaped, molded my character after those who did good because the smallest good is worth it. Superman, Wolverine, Power Rangers, Captain Planet.. Doesn't mean I'm naive/ or blind to people trying to screw me over. I think it helps me see peoples true intentions sooner
12:10, it feels like a cheat for me to give this as my example but in the 2002 Spider-Man movie, when the several people begin pelting Green Goblin with assorted objects to intercede on Spider-Man’s behalf against Goblin because “if you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us.”
The people who criticize things like superman helping a suicidal woman don't get it because they can't understand the hero's mindset.
They're thinking of it from a consequentialist viewpoint. The ends are what matters, so to speak.
A true hero, like Superman (the way he was intended to be written), doesn't consider anything to be "beneath them". Every life matters. And yeah, at any given moment there's probably a natural disaster going on halfway across the world that superman could be helping with, but he's not the only person who can do that, especially if we acknowledge that he's in the DC universe where heros like the flash exist.
If he sees someone, about to jump off a building, and thinks "I'm probably the only one who could save this person right now," it doesn't matter if there's something that's, in our minds, a bigger deal that he could be helping with, because if that person dies when he could have done something about it, he would feel responsible for that death. That's how heroes are. That's how they're meant to be.
The reason why Strange is against Peter idea in NWH is because curing the villains would affect the other universes history (the villains aren't from the present day, but from different time periods of those universes), creating variants and new Earths, affecting the multiverse that, bc of Strange's spell is already unstable. Peter goal may be good, but his actions can have bigger consequences for the world.
Strange doesn't re-learn anything bc in the end it isn't sending the villains back that just fix the multiverse. It's Peter finally realizing his mistake and letting Strangecompleting the memory spell.
Peter finished curing villians allowing them the potential chance to not be killed in theyre original universes, strange finishing the spell didnt undo peter's goal in the climax
@@CaptKami18 The problem was always an easy fix , doing the right thing was the struggle and in that struggle peter was right in what he did.
An Amazing Hero moment that has stuck with, was Lemillion vs Overhaul from MHA. It wasn't that he was fighting a dude who could potentially kill him in one touch, it's why he was fighting him. To protect a single kid, just one small girl. He insured that this girl wasn't hit at all during this entire fight. He even let himself be shot by a quirk erasing bullet then let it hit her. Even after being hit by said bullet, he still fought Overhaul. His ability (Permeation) was arguably not that powerful compared to Overhaul, which made him even more badass in the fight. He used his OWN STRENGTH to humble Overhaul. He didn't even win, yet he still manage to occupy Overhaul so that Deku would defeat him. I loved this heroic scene, even if lasted for less than an entire 9 minutes in the anime.
Bro if Lemillion let Eri be shot by the quirk destroying bullet, Overhaul's plans would be completely boned 😆.
Oddly enough this reminds me of the magical girl problem in Japan.
Magical Modaka did it's thing. Everyone copied the surface detail and forgot that the fans enjoyed the magical girls trying to do what is right rather than having everything bleak.
So it made magical girls an archetype rather than a major series.
Yes there are still magical girl shows... But they are not as many as there once was and they seem to be recovering.
Sort of like how Super Hero shows and movies are struggling, but we get shows like Invincible and My adventures with Superman where being heroic, nice, or caring about others is more of an exception than the norm.
A really fun magical girl series I'm enjoying right now is Magical Girl Tsubame: I Will (not!) Save the World! It's pretty dark but the characters are still fun and silly
Ironically, Madoka Magica is where the superhero moment that I think of first comes from, where Mami saves a woman jumping to her death by basically pulling a Spiderman. I'll grant it's a small and kinda pedestrian thing, but I always found it an interesting contrast within the context of the show that she's the only one whose abilities (the ribbons) are more immediately suited to protecting potential victims than ending potential threats. Really got me thinking a while back about that contrast in other hero stories.
I mean, I get that she doesn't last long, so that means the show was just dunking on idealism, right? Not to me. To me, the overall message of the show is about the things that make dreams of a better world a reality. About how while dreams without understanding are doomed to fail, shown with Sayaka's whole arc; and that understanding without dreams is rudderless and pointless, shown primarily with Kyoko's whole character; when you have a full picture of and understand how the world works, and still have your dreams, that's how you can truly improve the world, shown with Madoka's final wish. It's not, to me, bleak for the sake of being bleak, but rather bleak for the sake of showing how much care, attention, and hard work building a better world really is, and how missing any necessary component in that struggle leads to disaster.
(you could argue it's also about the importance of connections/loving relationshps in that process, the lack of which offs Mami; and about the importance of letting your dream to improve the world go beyond yourself, which Homura can't do, keeping her locked in her loop, but I only list these for completeness)
meguca
I thinks it’s weird to throw Hellboy in the “anti-hero” bin since he’s actually just as heroic as any Superhero, he’s just grumpy.
One moment that I enjoyed is from armored adventures. It gets discovered that the super villain living laser is going to die as a result of his own powers. S.H.E.I.L.D. is content with just locking him up and doing nothing about it, but Iron man refuses to let it happen. despite the fact that laser tried to kill him repeatedly, Tony tries to find a way to cure him. This act of kindness is what gets Laser to start his redemption arc and become a hero
One of the things that made War Machine my favorite Super Hero EVER is a quote Rhodey says during his 1° Run on 1994:
*¿Why you decided to make good with that suit?*
_"Because I want to be there for anyone who needs me, because back in the day Noneone helped me when I needed it & I don't want ANYONE to suffer that too"_
I feel like My Adventures with Superman handles several aspects of this so well- the Clark of that universe is so genuine and it hurts him so much when he sees what he's capable of- when he gets exposed to the "evil superman" trope, it breaks his heart, because he genuinely wants to do and be good just because it's the right thing to do. And seeing other characters realize that is so wonderful as well- the General's realization of that is such a great moment too. Because from his point of view, he's living in a setting like the Synderverse, or any of the other "edgy" superman settings, and suddenly he realizes that it's his cynicism and fear making him think that way, and the kid in front of him really is a truly goodhearted person.
I miss SUPER!! HEROES!!! Not pricks with power.
Honestly I think it's good to have variety, to have anti heroes, heroes, pircks with power etc. You simply get tired of what you see the most, if every movie was hero movie it would also get tired. I love both Spider-man and Deadpool but if constantly I saw one or another it would get boring
@@realdragon I guess you just summarized the point of the video then: Anti-heroes / “Edgy” heroes that mostly exist just for hype/money are getting overused these days.
Personally, the Boys and Invincible really did this Anti-hero / corrupt hero trope very well. Omni-man was sort of an anti-hero at first, not caring deep down about saving people and seeing it like a waste of time. Then he went straight up villain mode from episode 7 to 8, when he finally stopped hiding his true nature and killing whoever opposes him even a bit… hmm, I guess it’s inaccurate to even call him an “anti-hero” if killing and dominating people have always been his true nature. I don’t know, Omni-man is a special case. I guess one can actually switch between antihero and villain.
@@e-davidi.7354 I think in Invincible they have both tropes, anti-hero/villain and straight up heroes because we see people with super powers who want to help as much as the other side
I didn't watch the Boys so I can't say much about it but in Invincible we see fair share of true hero and Omni man
@@realdragon Yeah, I noticed all the tropes. Mark is a hero done right, although too naive at times, trusting strangers too easily just to help AND thinking he even stood a chance against his father. I guess it’s just to show he isn’t perfect.
There are plenty of them and there’s nothing wrong with anti heroes
All Might literally tanking a head-on Blast from AFO, being on his last legs as his power is flickering out of existence. And all that for what you may ask? Just to protect a wounded woman trapped underneath a collapsed building.
6:20, agreed. And I can’t stand it when Anti-Hero fans broaden the definition of Anti-Hero to any protagonist with flaws to deflect criticism
I would say Uncle Iroh helping that mugger get his life together in Avatar the last air bender.
OK I get the anti hero part but Daredevil is not an anti hero
He's dark but he is full on a hero
Agreed
In the movie he straight up murders people and jokes about it.
From what I understand of him, the entire character of Daredevil is a flawed, violent yet ultimately good man trying to resist his darker impulses and do genuine good because that's what his father taught him. There's a reason he's such good friends with Spider-Man.
I've always hated the idea that "realism" meant "everything sucks, everybody's a piece of shit, and happiness doesn't exist for more than a few seconds." It can feel that way at times, sure, but that's not what is. People can be nice, people can be looking out for one another, and life can be enjoyable.
You just described realism twice.
It's not "okay" if heroes are really heroic, it's NECESSARY.
Stories are not just entertainment, they also serve to inspire us. Characters that inspire us to be our best selves are extremely necessary for a moral and healthy society.
Yeah, but then nobody is going to be interested if it doesn't entertain.
@@Spino-hx2mr Good stories do both.
By the way, the Punisher isn't supposed to be a hero, writers have actually said that. Punisher is a cautionary tale.
When Yuji was talking to Nobara about having to kill the human curses. The whole theme of Jujitsu Kaisen is power and learning to maintain your humanity when obtaining it. People like Sukuna, Gojo, even Maki had to give up a bit of their compassion to obtain the status they are at, but Yuji, despite all of that, still tries to be the good guy and look out for those who can’t
Rorshack is not some ideal people should look to, but neither is really any of the major characters in The Watchmen. But he does definitely have plenty of aspects people can, like being willing to die for his beliefs, and not wanting to go along with the "for the greater good" stuff.
and the fact he actually gets rid of truly evil people
@My_pfp_beats_all_dog_breeds. It actually isn't, it's stated right there in the material. On an in universe newspaper. He also wrote a racist white Supremacist manifesto which we can read some of on that very same page.
Also responding to the Op, he was willing to let the whole world end just because of his own warped and stubborn sense of justice. You can say the same about a lot of villains who are willing to die for their beliefs, doesn't make them all too admirable. My first time reading watchmen I admittedly thought Rorschach was cool and was the best of them, but I like many others, completely misunderstood the point of his character. Helps that I was a teenage boy when I first read it.
@My_pfp_beats_all_dog_breeds. I can believe it, but mostly because I know the general idea of the authors positions, and he definitely didn't want Rorschach to be seen positively due to what he represented. Apparently Dr Manhattan was supposed to be the hero, and he was rather upset people thought the opposite.
@@zachcoats4849 That's one way to say he wasn't willing to let an entire city be murdered to delay nuclear Armageddon. And that's on a number of assumptions: that it would for sure work, that squid thing wouldn't go out of control, and that nuclear annihilation was guaranteed otherwise.
The one of the few anti hero that was properly man was done was jon bernthal’s punisher. His revenge was over in the beginning of the show. The show focuses mainly on him cleaning out the other who were involved but along the way he see how he is affected by his loss and guilt. Having visions of his wife, watching his family and friends get murdered brutally in a nightmare and then nearly getting tortured to death save an innocent man. By the end, we see that his wounds may never truly heal but there may be something ahead for frank.
People sleep on Amazing Spider-Man 2. I’m not going to give a full review, but watch the scenes with the little boy at the beginning and the end of the film. Nothing else needs to be said. THAT is what a hero is.
No but seriously! It is a flawed movie in some ways but in that way and how they portray Spider-Man it is so dang great
THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!!! It's not a bad film by a long shot just needed some writing changes
(Don't tell them what Mark thinks of being a hero in the parts of the story the show hasn't covered yet)
Right? It's just so good though.
I also really can't wait for the show to continue so I can finally rant about Dinosaurus and that whole arc.
Yes but it's a slow build to that point, Mark doesn't start there
And even in the Comics, i am pretty sure Mark always wants to do good(though i admit i haven't read them)
I honestly like Daredevil a lot, since he’s a lot more human, but he’s still a person that wants to do good but is disadvantaged. He’s still a hero, both on and off his mask with him being a lawyer.
Anti heroes being boring and bad is equally as bad as a take as saying a pure hero is bad.
Anti heroes are interesting as pure heroes. I dont know why people dislike them.
@@CKER-cl8in I think it's because people who try to write anti-heroes focus too much on the anti aspect, while forgetting or outright ignoring the Hero aspect.
The result is a character who's just a prick with superpowers, and that's not enjoyable for most people.
@@Psychosomatic63 Like Tsundere?
As a person wanting to write great stories on fanfiction, I am glad I found this video.
This gives some great advice on how I should write my heroes.
Make them heroes, not punch bad guy till dead.
Thank you and I will try and improve my writing to make good heroes.
That makes me really happy to hear! Thank you so much!
Fanfic is a great way many amazing writers learned their craft and I wish you all the success in the world!
This is also the problem with people saying "superheroes should kill"
Like yes, Anti-heroes do kill and no one complains but when someone says that "oh superheroes should kill because if they dont then the villains will escape" then they missed a point, they are super HEROES, not murderers
@@whatdadogdoin634bullshit a hero is someone who saves lives and supervillains put other people’s lives in danger so why should theirs be guaranteed
@@dirammyHeroes save ALL lives, including those of villains. Sonic the Hedgehog in the IDW comics is my personal example for a hero whose philosophy has him avoid taking anyone’s lives. He sends his villains away so that they can’t do anything for a period of time, and his value of life is part of his larger belief in freedom of choice for everyone.
Honestly, anti heroes typically work best in contrast to a more traditional hero, as foils to each other. Their differences should challenge the others beliefs and actions. Batman and Red Hood come to mind. While Red Hood’s killing of criminals is morally wrong, he challenges Batman’s no killing rule by pointing out how by leaving those like the Joker alive he has caused the death of many innocents.
Rorschach is not a racist my guy. He's a very outspoken libertarian who also acknowledges the flaw in John Locke's assertion that multiculturalism is in and of itself a culture. Now, we are free to agree or disagree with that assertion but in a world where most superheroes are written with either left-wing or classically liberal views, it's refreshing to see a hero who believes people need something transcendent to kneel down to in order to be one people. I also don't think I would describe him as an antihero. He's just very black and white. Evil is evil and doing good doesn't take away the evil. It's very Old Testament "the penalty for sin is death" kind of thing. He has no interest in understanding how the child rapist became a child rapist. Nuance is a burden to the innocent so why bother with it? I think there's something very cathartic and even praiseworthy in a fictional character who simply puts an end to savagery rather than allowing a "joker" like figure to kill thousands more people every time he escapes. Not advocating for real life vigilantes whether they are lethal or nonlethal. I'm just saying that there's a reason why cops carry guns and the use of them can be deemed righteous if you would permit me to use such a term.
"The use of them can be deemed righteous" depending on the situation. You say nuance is the enemy of the true victim, but this completely non-nuanced take on police enforcement is why they get away with killing so many innocents.
I agree with those videos that we now live in a society where we now worship violence, villains, degenerate behavior, power scaling, evil supermen, and in general putting actually good moral below everything. We need true hero in the media now more than ever as our real world is now full of just horrors. Heroes in the West mainly need to start saving people again. Hell, many Japanese media anti heroes have character progression and having caring sides to them. Plus your right power scaling has also ruined heroes and put actually said a good story telling up for the slaghter in order to compete against the power levels of other media in duck size measuring tournament. The boys represent everything that is wrong with our media and how the superhero ruined my hero academia and invincible represent the kind of storytelling that is needed in order to bring back the heroes we need hell japan in winning in making great heroes and story telling right. The West is only encouraging to be a villain
That's part of why manga and anime are so popular right now I think, especially stuff like One Piece and Demon Slayer that have genuinely pure and good protagonists you can really root for
@-Teague- so true. This is why I think more people need to look up to people like deku and tanjiro while the West wants us to look up to people like lex Luther and the Joker who are not people to look up to hell in the boys Billy butcher is a bad guy in his own right because he also planned on killing the good heroes
I am begging people to watch My Hero Academia actually, the whole thing about that series is heroes just being okay with the systemic rot of hero society because that's just how it is, they are not true heroes.
@@-Teague- I love Demon Slayer but Tanjiro is the opposite of pure, by his own admission he only helps others because he believes there's something in it for him.
Does the show present this as pure? Yes. That doesn't mean it is.
Honestly, this whole video sums up what Optimus Prime should’ve been in all the live action movies. Instead of killing every Decepticon in his way very brutally (unless if it’s justified), he should have remorse for the the kills he made. Finding a way to still stop the villain, but not trying to massacre them.
The funny thing is you can do both, transformers prime pulls it off really well.
One more thing Luke Skywalker refusing to kill his father and said to the emperor “You failed your highness I am Jedi like my father before me.”
Also in Invincible, the very first scene. Opens with the security guards(who would be disposable casualties in any other show) just talking. They are humanizing themselves by talking about just normal stuff. Then when they are attacked, the definitely not justice league's top priority is evacuating all the civilians. In fact they go easy in the fight until evacuations are complete to avoid risking them.
The show is just brilliant at structuring fights in civilian areas. They always acknowledge when they are at risk and show the heros actively trying to save them.
Rengoku from Demon Slayer deserves a mention, because when a demon took over and derailed a train full of passengers he made damn sure there were no casualties.
There's also Rock Lee/Might Guy/Might Dai. Talentless tryhards who never really got their due credit from the people around them because everyone in the series loves bootlicking the ninjas born with inherent advantages. Makes sense though: you can't really give these guys props for their hard work and dedication without admitting that you need to tighten up.
However, the anime hero that gets the *least* amount of credit due is The Great Saiyaman. He often gets ridiculed by both the cast and fans but he's also out there directly fighting for the people. Not for fun. Not to be the strongest. Gohan made it a point to become a superhero the first time he saw a crime being committed and you'd think everyone would be more appreciative *given what was walking around seven years ago* .
Something that I've grown to love is when superheroes actually try to talk and reason with the villain before resorting to violence. Superman and even Batman did it often in the DCAU, and other heroes like Static and Flash did it as well. The only times when they don't are either when the villain is about to hurt someone or it's someone that they know can't be resoned with.
I also love it when heroes actually try to get help for the villains instead of just tossing them in jail and being done with them. Spider-Man is a good example of this.
I think a lot of the problem with how superheroes are written today is the accumulation of rewrites, retcons, and resets of many of these characters stories and defining character traits that's left them muddied up. Nowadays someone like Batman isn't a man traumatized as a boy and left in the dark only to use it to protect and guide those out of it, but a 300 IQ giga brain contingency plan man that is somehow a bigger threat to himself and the people he cares for than even Joker.
I’m kind of surprised you didn’t bring up the DeadPool movies because not only is DeadPool an anti-hero, it’s one of the few MCU properties I can think of that specifically features almost every lacking yet positive superhero movie aspect mentioned in this video.
Thank you! THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS! Like I'm sorry but this "thread" of anti-hero (as much I love them myself, such as Punisher ((most Netflix Punisher)) to Red Hood ) is nothing more of either poorly written or cash grab market tool to the "realism" Superhero take (in which, yes, I enjoy the Boys but I don't think it really "fresh" the Superhero gerne but more of making all only about Fighting and cool-design than more of character depth, but Homelander is the best villain but WISHED many people WOULD stop thinking he could win EVERY fight or something). I understand that, yes, the World or IRL is not always or is, Black or White. It's all gray to barely things being Right or Wrong.
But...to be honest...half of Marvel to DC HAVE, and again, HAVE done gray stories of icon characters but STILL showed that, even in the end, heroes ALWAYS been Heroic. Even IF they lose or win. There's NOTHING wrong of making heroes/heroines being heroic to inspire or teach us a lesson or NEVER giving up if the odds are against you or when the going is tough.
I'm just...getting so sick and tired of this, "Realism" take on the Superhero gerne or even needless violence because it's "cool or epic" no no no. Not ALL fights scenes or the battles is not WHY the fight, but WHAT are they fighting for or saying. THAT what made fight scenes of the earlier comics to early movies made in the past to even back in 2010s. But now...EVERYONE trying to be a copy of "Watchmen" or heroes are not always One-Dimensional or not "always" good. Which again, I'm NOT saying makes heroes "be good" but DO GOOD. You can have an hero being a prick or jerk but his/her's actions CAN show they have heart, morals, goals to even showing their either good-side, heroic side or simply...their HUMAN side.
What we TRULY lacking is this...We're missing on the HUMANITY of Superheroes. They may be fictional but even fictional they STILL can have flaws that WE the viewers CAN relate than thinking things like blood, gore, sex and unnecessary to wacky violence in every media that shows the "reality" to which I say is bull and more of excuse of making now "Watchmen" copycats to now bad edgy-amateur writings for a cash grab.
exactly
One of the things that really solidified Spider-Man as the greatest superhero for me as a wee lad was playing Spider-Man 2 for the gamecube. The game makes you spend a lot of time just...helping people, construction workers who slipped, injured people ambulances can't get to, kids lost balloons, random muggings, and these would still happen next to you during the big important story missions at random. It really made me feel what "Friendly neighborhood Spider-Man" meant to be in the moment doing those things, and to still feel the need to stop and do them despite the personal important mission at hand. Nowadays the Raimi movies are looked back on as the glory days of the character, one of the reasons touted being that he actually does hero stuff besides the big movie villain. (the same thing kinda happened for me with Krillin in the story mode of Budokai Tenkaichi 2 bro was ALWAYS there for just about every single fight all story and had the level ups to prove it. Went from a character I liked to an all time favorite.)
But nowadays there's also so many people obsessed with "When Spider-Man stops telling jokes you know you're fucked." or "Spider-Man doesn't kill. That's why I'm going to fight you as Peter Parker today." and just in general latching on to his darkest moments and things like when Doc Oc stole his body and punched Scorpions jaw off. Those used to be small fun facts, a joke about how he had a cold and couldn't talk so when he showed up and didn't joke the villains just surrendered. So many people now treat him less like the local guy who just wants to help because he knows he can and more like a messed up power fantasy. The curse of his explosion in popularity online the last like 5 or 6 years. I want to go back to Spider-Man threads as a derailing the subject joke. He's supposed to be funny, human, and helpful.
Really gotta thank the Spider-verse movies for really nailing Peter so well, even in the state of being aged and jaded and TRYING to walk away to deal with his own problems he just can't help but try to save people and guide Miles, and for being one of possibly the most well crafted passing of the torch stories ever, it's what Miles deserves. Can't wait for the third movie.
I think superheroes saving people is very important to superheroes. Spider-Man especially. Spider-Man went out of his way to stop a kid from becoming a criminal and killing a cop. He decided to talk to him and bring him back to his dad. JMS is very good at this.
Zack Snyder has done irreparable damage to the superhero genre. He tried adapting characters and stories he didn’t understand and that resulted in misrepresentation of characters like Superman and Batman not thinking twice before killing. His Watchmen film glorified vigilantes when Alan Moore’s graphic novel was the exact opposite of that. The guy is a hack.
I wouldn’t go that far. I’d say Man of Steel had some very inspirational moments. Plus the Snyder Cut had some good moments too
@@JDog2656 A few drops of gold in a sea of sh*t don't make that sea of shit better.
@@JDog2656 No, it did not. I'm really quite amazed how most of the internet has gaslit themselves into thinking the vastly inferior cut of the Justice League movie was somehow a massive improvement. Spyderhuntz is right, Zach Snyder is a hack.
Keaton’s Batman was killing people, Batman in the comics didn’t even start out with the no killing rule, and other multiverse versions of him kill people. There’s nothing wrong with adapting a Batman that kills.
@@nathannix3217 True. But, there is nothing inherently right in doing so, either.
In my opinions, Anti-Heroes are satured now. I wanna see more stories about Anti-Villains. The likes of Sandman from Spiderman 3, someone like Thanos, or even something like Garou from OPM.
Because I actually wanna see what kind of stories would come out if we gave focus to Anti-Villains, or even made a movie/show with an Anti-Villain as the main character.
All Might from My Hero Acdemia is basically the Ideal Superhero.
What Superman is at his finest (All Star, Up in the sky, Death of Superman)
Every hero student is well a good person. Deku is Kamala Khan done right.
He wants to be hero like his inspiration (who is actually likeable unlike Captain Karen) not because he wants to impress a girl or to get popular, but because he geniunly wants to save people.
Which was refershing to see in 2020 ( when I first saw mha)
Hey hellboy was pretty great. And the 2nd one had the whole kittens in a box scene
My favorite heroic moment is all might vs all for one when he beats him he stands triumphant as a symbol of peace and points towards everyone and inspires everyone to become a hero and to be good. That scene was soo goood
Or even when Deku first saw a video of him rescuing a bunch of children out of some burning rubble.
Train scene Spider-Man 2, not only does our hero get the strength to fight again, but he’s not even the hero there, people stand up for him, they make sure he’s okay before he can keep on going, and while they fail, they try, and so does he
This is why I loved the New 52 film The Death of Superman so much. It actually humanized Superman AND had the Justice League, especially Superman, acting like heroes. The one scene that still makes me choke is when he saves a kid, during a dangerous battle, who was trying to save his gameboy and guess what, Supes even saved his gameboy. I always resonate with superheroes more when they do even small things like these than say, stopping an alien invasion or fighting a galactic tyrant or something. It's fun and all, but being grounded and seeing these heroes actually helping people is what sticks with you.
You just like style over substance.
I agree. The problem is that Invincible/Mark is absolutely NOT the poster child for more superheroic characters. He's not even the poster child for being at least above average in terms of being competent and thinking ahead.
Mans just trying to survive 💀
And that's why he's a great example to me.
You just love having garbage takes huh
@@mazingg2367 Was that for me or OP?
@@Twines9383 vunderguy
The Spiderman 2 train scene will probably be forever THE most iconic superhero moment doing actual heroic deeds to save the common people.
4:58, I think it’s fair to say that every Dr. Strange in the MCU Multiverse has a ruthless streak
Gosh what a refreshing video. It’s the same way I believe it’s fully okay if Villains are actually irredeemable evils, not sympathetic antagonists. The 2010s gave a rise to a lot of Nietzsche influenced, very cynical if not somewhat nihilistic media that confounded fans unto what’s “ good” or “ effective”. Nobody’s truly good or bad, but the heroes aren’t really heroes and the villains aren’t really villains. Everyone’s sympathetic. But it gets stale. As humans we know what it is to be virtuous, and what most would subscribe as evil, and we instinctively gravitate towards or against these things in real life. Therefore, why should they be exempt from story even if they are exaggerations? Stories aren’t only used for realism, so having a Boy Scout beat the Mastermind is very effective in fiction IMO.
I hate to correct you but Rorscach was not a Klansman or affiliated with the Klan at all, but the newspaper he wrote to was. Even when asked about this question, Alan Moore said “It doesn’t matter because he’s dead. What does matter is that you can say he was, and I can say he wasn’t, and we can both have a compelling argument.” I’m not saying Rorschach wasn’t a reactionary or a misogynist (which are very apparent in the comics) I just wanted to make that clear
Well it may not have been much in the grand scheme, but in Aquaman 2018, Arthur saved a submarine crew attacked by pirates, escorted people into shelter, lifted rubble from a girl’s father and tackled a bell from crushing her. Plus one of the reasons he went after Orm at the end battle was to keep casualties at bay at Mera’s counsel. His arc started with him as a loner who occasionally does good to those he seems worthy, unconnected to anyone aside from his dad. It ends with him taking on the mantle of king to connect the two worlds to protect all those living in either land or sea.
Rorschach is was never a remember the KKK that was a bunch of dumb racists reading a fake version of his journal and the fact that you referenced that terribly written show as a source of this it's sad because that show needs to be forgotten and ignored like that Wonder Woman pilot that never got made into a full show but beyond that I actually agree with what you said yeah I Want More Heroes being Heroes not trying to be anti heroes if I want Frank Castle I'll go read or watch Frank Castle
Someone boost the above comment up, they need more likes to be seen.
"Nova Express makes many sneering references to costumed heroes as direct descendants of the Ku Klux Klan, but might I point out that despite what some might view as their later excesses, the Klan originally came into being because decent people had perfectly reasonable fears for the safety of their persons and belongings when forced into proximity with people from a culture far less morally advanced." -Rorschach
Also read into what inspired the character of Rorschach from the words of Alan Moore himself.
@@zachcoats4849
1 page and panel of Rorschach being racist or saying that
2 i know why he was made a petty dig at the objectivist hero the question and his creator just too bad you wouldn't know that unless you were told or looked it up which says a lot
Alan is a communist and a moral relativist, he's a good writer but legitimately does not have any moral highground. Also it's kinda funny seeing people try to claim that you're not allowed to have a different interpretation of a character named after a rorschach test.
Most cartoon shows like Ben 10 and Randy Cunningham
I've recently started watching Jujutsu Kaisen, and a heroic moment that came to mind for me was when the main trio were sent into a detention center to locate (not rescue or even retrieve) a handful of inmates who were trapped inside with an extremely dangerous curse. Before they went in, a distraught mother begs them to help her son. They find the inmates dead and mangled, including the mother's son, right before the curse shows itself, and they're woefully outmatched against it. Even though he had to run for his life, Fushiguro tore the name tag off the son's uniform so that he could give it to the mother later.
He couldn't save anyone, but he still did what he could to bring some comfort to a grieving mother.
The one moment that sticks with me? I reckon it's the most quintessential superhero moment ever produced. Superman: the Movie, where rather than some massive action setpiece, rather than stopping some heinous villains or catching a falling plane, Superman takes the time out of his night to get the cat out of the tree and stop to say hello to a little girl. Superheroes care, and when you care that much, no job is too small.
Rorshach was not a klansman in the comic? The reason people relate to rorshach and like him is because he is the only character who refuses to break his principles.
The most you could say was that he read a somewhat kkk-aligned newspaper or something and was kinda bigoted. But compared to basically every other main character he's the only one who's an actual hero, who valued the lives of the innocent and stood up for what was right instead of just apathetically letting people die for "the greater good". The show from a few years ago is dogshit and doesn't reflect the actual characters (not to mention straight up making up events, lmao there was no klan airforce in the 20s), and the Snyder movie was basically a shot-for-shot copy of the comic, just with a slightly different mass murder sequence (perpetuated by the character who mind you is Moore's literal golden boy).
@94 "instead of just apathetically letting people die for "the greater good""
Did we read the same comic? Nobody "let" Ozymandias pull off his plan. He outsmarted the others by carrying it out before anyone could get close to him. What did you want the heroes to do, expose the plot after it already happened? That could start a nuclear war that would make Ozymandias' body count look like a border skirmish. Telling the world about it wouldn't bring back the dead, only add to it. I don't know why so many fans forget that part.
Rorschach killed himself by proxy because he couldn't accept that it was better to let the world be tricked for a while than kill them all for a truth that wouldn't matter if it ended up revealed. He's not a hero and he'd reject the label anyway. He stopped caring about protecting the innocent when he saw how that girl died; it was only about punishing the guilty to him after that, which isn't the same thing.
Rorschach was a deconstruction of that kind of hero who never compromises his principles, like Batman being unwilling to kill the Joker despite all the death he keeps causing. Sometimes, you have to choose between your principles and being a hero. Rorschach chose the former and abdicated the latter.
RORSCHACH IS LITERALLY THE ONLY HEROIC CHARACTER IN THE WORLD OF THE WATCHMEN.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Look up the inspiration for Rorschachs character. He is at best meant to be a nutcase.
Rorschach was inspired by heroes like The Question and Mr A. Moore thinks that the world is grayer than it really is so hates those types of objectivist heroes and painted Rorschach as a strawman.
No he's definitely not heroic. He's just the only one any moral convictions, twisted as they are, in a book filled with assholes.
There's something telling about how DCEU Superman genuinely saved dozens of civilians on screen and no one even remembers it
If by "no one" you mean biased MCU fanboys then yeah.
Everyone else not only remembered it, but they made sure that Real third part of his (Superman's) trilogy Will be released and also financed bunch of real life charities and personally helped to some of each other, including director of that trilogy.
Frankly DCEU Superman doesn't need admiration from dishonest people who can't even keep act straight while discussing superhero media without deliberately lying.
Hellboy was a great hero. He tries to save people’s but they ridicule them
First thing that came to mind was back when I watched the CW's Flash show, there was one episode early on that opens with the Flash saving a woman with a baby from a car crash, then the episode moves on to the usual stuff. But I remember that moment because it's kinda the one time in the show when he, not only is acting heroic in the traditional sense but also that he's helping just some random person, that show they almost never interact with or help just random normal people
Great video, but I kinda feel like you misunderstand anti-heroes a bit. They aren't just edgy killers; they represent a philosophical discussion between what is objectively right and what is objectively wrong. A hero's compassion is always great, especially towards their enemies, but most of the time, their enemies don't share their compassion, and almost everytime they extend them an olive branch for redemption, they use that branch to strangle an innocent person. By accident they create a status quo, where they dispatch the enemy and put them behind bars, so they can break out again and kill more people. Anti-heroes are the opposite of this status quo, they understand that there are people beyond redemption, and a good anti-hero never kills the innocent. They want the same thing as the hero but get it in different ways.
It was one aspect of Moore's Watchmen that goes largely unnoticed: Most of the criminals that the costumed vigilantes handed over to the police went to prison *and stayed in prison*, not a cycle of break out, break laws, break their own face on the hero's fist. The original Nite Owl comments about one of the people he arrested actually reforming and starting a new life after serving out their sentence. Moloch had spent the better part of his life in prison, and just wanted to be left in peace. The costumed crime-fighters were just people, as were the criminals they fought. Some better, some worse, but altogether flawed; all flawed together. The sort of setting where choosing to do good was not a high bar to clear, but never giving up on doing good was a long race without certainty of success.
@@Oddmanoutre Definitely because my issue with Moore was that he wanted us to hate Rorschach but didn't present a better alternative to him at least from the main cast. I like that the story addresses the villains trying to make an effort to be decent people.
@@badconnection4383 I felt that Moore was trying to express the same message that Frank Miller used in 'Kick-Ass': namely, vigilantism places a highly corrupting power in the hands of ordinary people, power that is unchecked by the public the vigilantes claim to be protecting. But Frank being Frank, he made his story into a diatribe against comic book nerds.
@@Oddmanoutre I guess a message like that should always be about the intent, but you aren't careful than you'll have people rooting for your supposed villain of the story.
Favorite heroic moment? Superman getting the cat from the tree for the little girl. So simple but it tells us so much about him, that no act of kindness, no matter how small, is worth doing.
For me, my favorite moment is episode 8 of One Punch man after all the other heros are defeated, Mumen Rider, a C class hero with nothing but a bicycle steps in to save the bystanders. Something that could have easily been played off as a gag is instead treated with the upmost sincerity. He knows he is no match and still stands his ground and inspires the bystanders to have hope again, because that is what it means to be a hero.
The only thing i disagree with was the Roarcach thing, how was he a klansmen/racist in the movie at all? (the show doesn't count). Even in the og novel i don't think it really showed he was like that, yeah it said he was like that but actions speak louder then words. He murders rap*ts and p3dos and child killers, sure hes the not greatest guy ever and not someone you should look up to but hes not a "bad guy" most people would want those people to be gone and there's nothing wrong with that. He hated the idea of Ozymandius' "world peace" and there is a great debate on wether its truly right or wrong.
love how the video covers a really interesting angle to things, great job
There is a beauty in a character overcoming their darkness for the sake of others and I want more
I fundamentally agree with your video, but I think X-Men would take a pass. If you're a fan of the older Comics, especially the Chris Claremont days they never thought of themselves as superheroes. They were not usually trying to save the world they would use the Jet and Suits to try and rescue mutants that were being attacked. They only went up against either anti-mutant groups or mutant extremist groups intended to avoid jumping into every superhero conflict.
Ive said it once, I'll say it again; let your villains be Villains and let your heroes be Heroes.
Morally grey characters are fine here and there but filling an entire story with them can be kinda dull.
like the color grey.
Reminds me of that one episode of Justice League where the heroes got to visit an alternative universe where Superman snapped and the League followed to turn to tyranny and enforce peace. There was that one scene where two Batmen stop at a red light. The tyrant Batman is confused while the good Batman shows the flaws of their power. Simple moment in a car but really sticks.
Real shit im a fan of comic book fan in all media both dc & marvel but honestly I do at times film that superhero fatigue but thats only for mid tier/lazy cgi spectales but shows like invincible and the boys have somewhat peaked my intrest back up for more alternative outakes of the superhero genre
Most "hero" movies aren't even titled nor promoted as hero movies. That's why they aren't all heroic. It's not about being edgy, it's about making something different.
It's interesting people here are noticing the trend of a lot of "heroes" seemingly being less heroic, without acknowledging the fact that for the most part heroes have been a thing in media, they all have been participating in the trend of "heroicness" and moral clarity. And these years anti-heroes and other genres of "super" stories have been popularized more because we already got a lot of the other stuff.
It's just my opinion, but I think the argument of super powered characters and stories having to be more heroic is a bit too rigid.
Just let people make the super stories they want, both with heroes and other kind of characters. Not everything has to be heroic.
Understandable
this is why Spider-Man 2 is still the best superhero movie ever made
Batman sitting with Ace.
This sounds like it was made by superboy prime...
tell me about it, "evil superman" got old real fast, atleast for me
Anyone remember that scene of Batman in the Justice League Unlimited series where he sat with a dying villain called Ace? That scene was amazing because he sat with her a poor girl who died because of the experiment she was placed under and the mental toll it took on her mind, Batman comforted her till she died making her go out knowing she was safe and ok.
I for one welcome Mark as our benevolent galactic dictator.
Funny enough, Yu Yu Hakusho, Bleach, Full Metal Alchemist, which are superhero esque comic books and animated series have the characters occasionally kill or brutalize the villain, also always jump in to save people or avenge the innocent and pushovers. Of course Japan has a fascination with keeping the status quo and do good for others sake as part of the community.
Kid Cosmic, an animated series of recent years, has the titulat character learn that the glitz and glamour of superheros is fake. As he said it being a hero is not forming a fist, it's extending a hand.
It pleases me on a deeper level to know that everyone here, comment section included, is likeminded in that we need real good heroes for a reason.
Spider-Man homecoming when he goes to stop the vulture choosing to be responsible and stop the vulture from hurting other even it means he has no backup
This is a really good take on heroes! It has really made me relook at my favorites. I don’t think there is anything wrong with anti heroes but they do need to be written better given more redemption. They need still be human. Awesome take though I hope we get a movie soon about a more human hero.
When spider man loses his mask on a train and everybody helps him and keeps his identity secret
Frankly, I feel this argument is interesting when it comes to the modern day. Especially when it involves products made in a country where things like “stand your ground” and the death penalty vary from place to place. Stuff like “should Batman kill the joker” gets muddied when people go “why hasn’t the state done so?”
Honestly, as an X men fan, where Death has been a revolving door for decades, I can see why the impact of killing diminished. Especially when it comes to a deluge of characters like Domino, Cable, Feral etc who had a lot of the 90’s edge.
However, I do like the balance and variety of characters that do so.
And it’s to be expected. When you have a franchise where anyone who is a mutant will be hit, drafted in etc, you will have that variety. From characters like Threnody whose powers are based on the end of life that have twisted their aspect on life, to the valiant and true heroes like Cannonball and the new mutants, there’s a bunch. Although, they do factor in that sometimes it isn’t cut and dry. Especially with characters like Dust where survival was necessary but show that, in solidarity, they don’t need to do that.
One of my favourites would probably be Emma Frost, especially during and after the Morrison run. She tries to be better (unless the writers assassinate her character in Inhumans vs X men) as an example to her students although the severity of how she handles things is dubious.
Things like taking X23’s abuser, Kimura, and wiping away the memories of the only person who loved her; Her grandmother, are dark but do show that the threat is enough to deter people. When in Marauders, she puts a trigger into some anti-mutant mercenaries to make them feel very ill when they think about causing violence to those who they see as lesser (race, disability, gender identity etc). Is it a little immoral? Yes. Is it stopping people from getting hurt by these people without killing them? Yes.
I’d also like to say that a lot of the hero stories we do get with stuff like the Avengers, apocalyptic level events and the like do also skew things one way or another. And this push towards heroes being crueller in their methods does also cause pushback in the opposite direction when it comes to shows and movies where it seems like villains can commit the most dastardly atrocities, up to and including mass extinction and attempted genocide, and, if the product doesn’t believe in incarceration, result in such atrocities being met with a a handshake and a place on the team.