I remember listening to a friend's Apogee Scintillas decades ago and being hugely impressed with the soundstage, but those things couldn't rock'n'roll at all.
That why you add subs to the mix, ESL and planars don't have the dynamic range of cone. However they do everything else way better than cone systems can. No coloration from baffles or cabinets Dipole, true line source drivers vs point source (cones , domes what not) But true, they lack dynamics range especially on the low end . Thank goodness, there are affordable subwoofers by now that easily can be intergrated with said systems.
Just bought the KLH Model 5’s. They are as you say, forgiving yet revealing. And I also own Maggie 1.7’s. With the Maggies, I must stay seated and not move one millimeter to enjoy. With the KLH, I can dance and still enjoy.
I think I'd get a second pair of speakers to play when the Magnapans just didn't cut it. Hook them up to the B main terminals on your amp and bounce between the two pairs (A/B) depending. How much are 4 more JL's? CRAZY. See, ya didn't think an amp needed 2 pairs of main terminals did ya?
One way to fix the dynamics of the Magnepans is, to get a active crossover for each speaker and run the Magnepans only down to around 250hz, and the subwoofers will take over anything under 250hz, but to do this you should have mono subs, one for each channel, instead of a single stereo sub, that would give you that full dynamic range sound.
Yes, this is a proven way to do it. The subs have to be able to go high without coloring the Maggie’s. However, don’t expect the dynamics typed get out of a directly driven cone system or the 20 series Maggie’s.
250hz from any type of subwoofer is pretty hard outside of pa or pro audio drivers. 250hz cross to a midbass mooder under the panel like Martin Logan does it could work. THEN cross to a sub section at ~80 like your supposed to. Subwoofers playing up high usually leaves intermodulation distortion at a high level, and will usually excite cone resonances in anything that plays down super low.
I have Magnepan 3.7's with 4 REL S510 subs in line arrays. The Maggies run high-pass down to 70Hz with the top subs following the identical signal path through the High input but, over lapping at 120Hz. The Bottom units run low pass full range below 60Hz. The Maggies run up to 10Khz where JBL compression drivers take over giving the system pure air-- no sparkle, no sizzle just effortless air. The whole system is tri-amped has plenty of hit and sub sonics, and while glorious in their own right, still don't have the dynamics of my large format JBL 4315 studio monitors.
I auditioned a pair each of SVS SB3000's and REL HT1205's. The SVS were fine on the floor but the RELs only sounded great when they were physically stacked on top of the SVS. (With the SVS off, couldn't really get them working together due to phase issues maybe.) I'm returning all the subs and saving for Tekton Moab speakers instead. But after what I learned, the next subs I will try one day, are the Tekton 4-10's that have four 10" drivers stacked vertically. Might be worth a look for you, too.
I'm not going to call you out for self-promotion. This was a good video. You agree that Maggies are a great speaker. And their lack of bass dynamics could easily be fixed with a good stack of subs. And you point out that you built the FR30's because you wanted to build something that addressed what you see as a hole in the market. Maggies rolled off at 100 Hz and paired with a stack or REL subs would sound great. But it would take up the entire room and cost as much as the FR30s. So you have a point. Just try the FR30's.
I love your stacking subs theory.. I just dont agree with spreading the subs . I know that depending on dia of driver and the freq the subs are cut off at and slope determines the distance the subs can be sepperated and still couple . If theyre too far appart from that distance there will be alleys..
Agree on the Maggies. Back in the day a friend sold me his MG 1s. Maybe 1a or b. Didn’t really ever set them up, then had to sell off a bunch of crap to finance my American walkabout. Guy answered my ad for them, and I ran a mix tape on hi-res VHS through my Carver PM-1.5. Hadn’t messed with placement or anything, just hit play so the guy could make sure nothing was wrong with them. I was kneeling on the floor, off axis by 90° or more and hit play. The music poured out. Did a double take because the sound was just so amazing. I think it was Earl Klugh’s cover of “Dance with Me” which I loved through my ads L710s. He just nodded and with a small smile handed over full asking price in cash. Now I’m rocking a pair of 1.7is with a Carver TFM-55x. Can’t wait to get my attic built out so they have more room to stretch out and breathe. But even in their current somewhat cramped quarters they sound great.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt hah. good point. Never was so great with the geometry. Maybe 60-75 degrees off axis, many feet from a typical listening position...
Those of us who have Allison systems tended to stop searching. Roy came closer to solving the speaker / room interface than anyone in the past 60 years. DBX had a couple of complimentary models that were more expensive and rare. Sadly Roy is no longer with us.
I once heard Allison Ones... one of the best speakers I've ever heard to this day. Saw a pair used for $800. ($600. USD) but, I just have too many speakers.
Fromy experience Magnepans need a substantial power bank to sound best. I don't really care for them because of the listening position you need to be in to really hear them. You get off axis and you lose some dynamics.
One of the reasons I like your videos SOOOO much is because you pay credit when it's due. I fully agree REL is flat out amazing! I went with a 6 pack of the S series. It's unreal what they do too the speakers they're paired with.
this is the first time I've ever posted anywhere before... skss sksss haaaHHAaaaa Anyway, why have 2 subs and satellites speakers take more space than 3 way 12 inch speakers that were the property of the past. I bet that had something to do with the popularity of the Kenwood speaker recently.
@@ryanschipp8513 Doesnt explain them attending the recent show in Canada though. I kinda feel like the ball got dropped not demo'ing the FR-30 @ Axpona. Just my opinion though.
You need 4 speakers stacked to get proper coupling. 3 really isn't "enough". Yes, you will get an added effect, but to couple them properly you need 4 or more. Stacked vertically you will greatly improve the sound coverage in the horizontal plane, and stacking them horizontally will add more to the vertical plane, so placing many subs horizontally will really only be useful in a large theatre style room.
I wonder why this gentleman ever bought a great speaker system only to have to add to it. I think it’s insanity. I believe he should have purchased a different brand of speakers. Money can’t buy you love.
ATCs are very revealing (used in professional studios) and the ported versions are not super fussy to place. They also feature arguably the world's greatest mid-range driver, invented in 1976 and still unchallenged. The active versions are even better, with the advantage of six built-in amps matched to each driver. Sound sample: th-cam.com/video/SdAetX6_YRs/w-d-xo.html
You should do yourself a favor and hear for yourself, sometime, what a planar midrange sounds like. Puts that ATC midrange to shame (well, that's kind of harsh since it IS a great midrange. It just doesn't come close to the transparency and speed of a great planar).
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 From what I understand and have youtube demo'd, the Magnepan soundstage width is unrivalled but regarding the separation of instruments most box designs and certainly the ATCs will be notably better. Having said that I would like to demo the Magnepans in real life some time.
is this a long term relationship with the speaker or are you dynamic enough not to be to di pooled over it negativity is the opposite of response I'm sure but then why do we need negative and positives anyway when they are both reversible :P :P
You need to get learned from legacy audio....there is not substitute for large speakers to move air with low distortion...10" drivers are not woofers they are mid range. You need to get a course on speaker by Bill dudleston at legacy...he is a real degreed engineer...not a wannabe...
@@36karpatoruski We did an in house side by side comparison with focal Grand Utopia and Legacy Whispers, on same amps first McIntosh 500w mono one per speaker, then 2 Van alstine mono amps 500wea. the guy wound up selling the McIntosh amps, the AVA blew away the McIntosh, and sold the focal, the Legacy Whispers blew away the focals etc, Whisper blew away Focals Wound up with money in the bank since the McIntosh sold for what he paid for them, and bought used Whispers from Legacy factory direct full warranty, money in the bank, and much better sound..Focals and McIntosh are grossly over priced, Legacy and VanAlstine better sound, less money
@@cengeb when I heard the Focal Frand Utopias, they were powered biamped by 1000 watt VAC monoblocks. Don’t honestly remember what powered the Legacys. All I can tell you is that everyone there wasblown away mesmerized by the Grand Utopia’s, and the Legacy’s sounded very ordinary, even dated by comparison. Bass extension and texture, elegantly liquid mids and highs, 1st order resolution and soundstage, stupendous non fatiguing but sparkling highs came together to pressurize the room in the best total presentation I ever heard. The Legacy rep out their speakers through the test paces and songs were comparatively flat and lifeless. Would have loved it come out otherwise as the Legacys were gorgeous examples of the cabinet designers prowess; but it was just not happening!
Just a bunch of crap right here. Paul, you can only recommend two speakers in the world? Fr30 and Magnepan? Good Lord please help us. all the other speaker manufacturers in the world just missed the boat and made insufficient speakers? this might be the worst video I've seen yet from you. I just attended axpona in Chicago today for about 6 hours. the show that you skipped because you were afraid of covid yet are claiming you have the best speakers in the world. certainly there were some speakers I liked at Axpona more than others but to say they're only two speaker manufacturers in the world that I would recommend? that's a bunch of hogwash if I ever heard it. Paul I guarantee there are a bunch of different speaker manufacturers you've never even heard in your life. so how can you disregard something you've never heard before? I mean a video like this really shouldn't even be done it's so ridiculous. and by the way I have three rigs in my place. two of them contain Anthony Gallo speakers with subwoofers and the other rig has Canton Tower speakers with subwoofers and all three of them sound very good at a fraction of the price of your speakers. all the attributes you list that is Speaker should have to be good they contain. so I alone I have proof that there are very very sonically gifted speakers besides the two manufacturers you favor.
@@craigaust3306 and by the way the guy has already admitted that he's gone out for wine and dinner after setting up speakers in Montreal. I guarantee you he's going to the grocery store or department store also. He's also going to work with coworkers that are doing whatever they want. Is totally illogical to pick on one event when he's being exposed to hundreds and thousands of people days after days that could have covid. Think it through
@@craigaust3306 I made 2 guarantees...... Answer me then....Do you think he has heard every speaker on the planet? Lastly, has he ever left his house to go to a grocery store or department? If you answer yes to #1 and no to #2 you are just being absurd and insulting your own intelligence.
@@TheDanEdwards another reason PS is way out of touch, actually PHILIPS had servo controlled, self powered hi fi loudspeakers in the late 70's they invented it, others copied. Legacy Audio offers several models with DSP and built in high powered amps, PS audio is beyond over priced and out of touch
Adding subs WILL fix most of the dynamic limitations of the 20 series Maggie’s. The Maggie’s that got the weak dynamics reputation because they are single ended, the 20 series are double ended. The move more than far enough with the right amp to give you a HUGE improvement. Paul is totally wrong in this.
I remember listening to a friend's Apogee Scintillas decades ago and being hugely impressed with the soundstage, but those things couldn't rock'n'roll at all.
That why you add subs to the mix, ESL and planars don't have the dynamic range of cone. However they do everything else way better than cone systems can.
No coloration from baffles or cabinets
Dipole, true line source drivers vs point source (cones , domes what not)
But true, they lack dynamics range especially on the low end . Thank goodness, there are affordable subwoofers by now that easily can be intergrated with said systems.
Just bought the KLH Model 5’s. They are as you say, forgiving yet revealing. And I also own Maggie 1.7’s. With the Maggies, I must stay seated and not move one millimeter to enjoy. With the KLH, I can dance and still enjoy.
I think I'd get a second pair of speakers to play when the Magnapans just didn't cut it. Hook them up to the B main terminals on your amp and bounce between the two pairs (A/B) depending. How much are 4 more JL's? CRAZY. See, ya didn't think an amp needed 2 pairs of main terminals did ya?
One way to fix the dynamics of the Magnepans is, to get a active crossover for each speaker and run the Magnepans only down to around 250hz, and the subwoofers will take over anything under 250hz, but to do this you should have mono subs, one for each channel, instead of a single stereo sub, that would give you that full dynamic range sound.
Yes, this is a proven way to do it. The subs have to be able to go high without coloring the Maggie’s. However, don’t expect the dynamics typed get out of a directly driven cone system or the 20 series Maggie’s.
250hz from any type of subwoofer is pretty hard outside of pa or pro audio drivers. 250hz cross to a midbass mooder under the panel like Martin Logan does it could work. THEN cross to a sub section at ~80 like your supposed to. Subwoofers playing up high usually leaves intermodulation distortion at a high level, and will usually excite cone resonances in anything that plays down super low.
You think Paul don't know that.
I have Magnepan 3.7's with 4 REL S510 subs in line arrays. The Maggies run high-pass down to 70Hz with the top subs following the identical signal path through the High input but, over lapping at 120Hz. The Bottom units run low pass full range below 60Hz. The Maggies run up to 10Khz where JBL compression drivers take over giving the system pure air-- no sparkle, no sizzle just effortless air. The whole system is tri-amped has plenty of hit and sub sonics, and while glorious in their own right, still don't have the dynamics of my large format JBL 4315 studio monitors.
I auditioned a pair each of SVS SB3000's and REL HT1205's. The SVS were fine on the floor but the RELs only sounded great when they were physically stacked on top of the SVS. (With the SVS off, couldn't really get them working together due to phase issues maybe.)
I'm returning all the subs and saving for Tekton Moab speakers instead. But after what I learned, the next subs I will try one day, are the Tekton 4-10's that have four 10" drivers stacked vertically. Might be worth a look for you, too.
Zach, Check out these GT Audio Works speakers and subwoofers, th-cam.com/video/2ZgRiAdbDNw/w-d-xo.html
I'm not going to call you out for self-promotion. This was a good video. You agree that Maggies are a great speaker. And their lack of bass dynamics could easily be fixed with a good stack of subs. And you point out that you built the FR30's because you wanted to build something that addressed what you see as a hole in the market. Maggies rolled off at 100 Hz and paired with a stack or REL subs would sound great. But it would take up the entire room and cost as much as the FR30s. So you have a point. Just try the FR30's.
Subwoofers are the way to go speakers can’t beat what they provide
💗 the FR Series
How would you consider 6 woofers an overkill when your IRS5 had like 12 of them?
Don't stack your subs... Don't know where it started. It only adds distortion. Either build a box for all 3 or put them all on the floor.
I love your stacking subs theory.. I just dont agree with spreading the subs . I know that depending on dia of driver and the freq the subs are cut off at and slope determines the distance the subs can be sepperated and still couple . If theyre too far appart from that distance there will be alleys..
Stacking subs next to Mags kind of sounds like the IRS V's....
Agree on the Maggies.
Back in the day a friend sold me his MG 1s. Maybe 1a or b. Didn’t really ever set them up, then had to sell off a bunch of crap to finance my American walkabout. Guy answered my ad for them, and I ran a mix tape on hi-res VHS through my Carver PM-1.5. Hadn’t messed with placement or anything, just hit play so the guy could make sure nothing was wrong with them. I was kneeling on the floor, off axis by 90° or more and hit play. The music poured out. Did a double take because the sound was just so amazing. I think it was Earl Klugh’s cover of “Dance with Me” which I loved through my ads L710s. He just nodded and with a small smile handed over full asking price in cash.
Now I’m rocking a pair of 1.7is with a Carver TFM-55x. Can’t wait to get my attic built out so they have more room to stretch out and breathe. But even in their current somewhat cramped quarters they sound great.
More than 90° off axis would make you behind the speakers
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt hah. good point. Never was so great with the geometry. Maybe 60-75 degrees off axis, many feet from a typical listening position...
I don't know what dynamics means. Range in volume?
JL Audio recommends you stack 12 subs
Those of us who have Allison systems tended to stop searching. Roy came closer to solving the speaker / room interface than anyone in the past 60 years. DBX had a couple of complimentary models that were more expensive and rare. Sadly Roy is no longer with us.
I once heard Allison Ones... one of the best speakers I've ever heard to this day. Saw a pair used for $800. ($600. USD) but, I just have too many speakers.
The IRS V are stacked subs.
Fromy experience Magnepans need a substantial power bank to sound best. I don't really care for them because of the listening position you need to be in to really hear them. You get off axis and you lose some dynamics.
I have found the ascend acoustics towers with the RAAL ribbon Twitter to be both forgiving and revealing for around $3200.
Why are Focals difficult to set up? I have heard several models. They were all harsh and bright. Is this a set-up problem?
Oh, do you take NMN?
What do you think about Ridthaler dipoles for the base range (e.g. Visaton Grand Orgue)?
One of the reasons I like your videos SOOOO much is because you pay credit when it's due. I fully agree REL is flat out amazing! I went with a 6 pack of the S series. It's unreal what they do too the speakers they're paired with.
Paul, have you heard the Tekton Moabs? 👌
I will bet my life he has not
I love you Paul make my day fun ;)
GR-Research has the solution to the dynamics problem in Maggies
Cable lifters?
@@Roof_Pizza 🤣
@@Roof_Pizza re-engineered x-over and quality x-over components.
I get the joke but where’s the funny?
George Morales lol lol
Danny boy is an Ego maniac that has no clue
So will you be making a speaker to match with the M 1200’s 👍😬??
this is the first time I've ever posted anywhere before... skss sksss haaaHHAaaaa
Anyway, why have 2 subs and satellites speakers take more space than 3 way 12 inch speakers that were the property of the past. I bet that had something to do with the popularity of the Kenwood speaker recently.
No Axpona for PS Audio this year? What gives?
No 💸💰 for that this year
@@yournightmare9999 Makes sense. Probly costs the MSRP of 2 sets of FR-30's to have an exhibit there i could safely assume.
I messaged them and they said they are afraid of the virus
@@yournightmare9999 Wrong. I messaged them directly, they said they are fearful of the virus
@@ryanschipp8513 Doesnt explain them attending the recent show in Canada though. I kinda feel like the ball got dropped not demo'ing the FR-30 @ Axpona. Just my opinion though.
You da man! Thanks Paul.
Everything you've asked for or are looking for in a speaker sounds like what Vandersteen already offers
I hear these the other day without subwoofers. very clean sound and of course with Dan D'Agostino Momentum S250 MxV Stereo Amplifier
$44,950.00
Hey Paul, thanks for the videos
Forget Paul, You are FIRST congratulations on this amazing performance you get 🥇🏆🍾🥂👏🇺🇸 You were so fast to click!
You need 4 speakers stacked to get proper coupling. 3 really isn't "enough". Yes, you will get an added effect, but to couple them properly you need 4 or more. Stacked vertically you will greatly improve the sound coverage in the horizontal plane, and stacking them horizontally will add more to the vertical plane, so placing many subs horizontally will really only be useful in a large theatre style room.
I wonder why this gentleman ever bought a great speaker system only to have to add to it. I think it’s insanity. I believe he should have purchased a different brand of speakers. Money can’t buy you love.
There are no perfect speakers. Any sound system is an exercise in compromises.
You are right, money can't buy you love but it sure as hell can buy you a car to cruise around and look for love.
Sounds like Martin -Logan Rennissance series electrostatic speakers would be a good alternative if you have 15K to spend. Anyone heard or own them?
ATCs are very revealing (used in professional studios) and the ported versions are not super fussy to place. They also feature arguably the world's greatest mid-range driver, invented in 1976 and still unchallenged. The active versions are even better, with the advantage of six built-in amps matched to each driver. Sound sample: th-cam.com/video/SdAetX6_YRs/w-d-xo.html
You should do yourself a favor and hear for yourself, sometime, what a planar midrange sounds like. Puts that ATC midrange to shame (well, that's kind of harsh since it IS a great midrange. It just doesn't come close to the transparency and speed of a great planar).
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 From what I understand and have youtube demo'd, the Magnepan soundstage width is unrivalled but regarding the separation of instruments most box designs and certainly the ATCs will be notably better. Having said that I would like to demo the Magnepans in real life some time.
A self-serving pitch on TH-cam? I'm shocked -- shocked to find that promotion is going on here!
What about ELAC loudspeakers? Do you not recommend those as you recommend Magnepans?
is this a long term relationship with the speaker or are you dynamic enough not to be to di pooled over it negativity is the opposite of response I'm sure but then why do we need negative and positives anyway when they are both reversible :P :P
bugger off long day ! my arse ! you look like i feel lad :P
yeah i subbed 2 years later lmao
You need to get learned from legacy audio....there is not substitute for large speakers to move air with low distortion...10" drivers are not woofers they are mid range. You need to get a course on speaker by Bill dudleston at legacy...he is a real degreed engineer...not a wannabe...
I heard Legacy’s top of the line several years ago at the NY Audio show. Right after hearing the Focal Grand Utopia’s. Legacy has a lot to learn.
@@36karpatoruski We did an in house side by side comparison with focal Grand Utopia and Legacy Whispers, on same amps first McIntosh 500w mono one per speaker, then 2 Van alstine mono amps 500wea. the guy wound up selling the McIntosh amps, the AVA blew away the McIntosh, and sold the focal, the Legacy Whispers blew away the focals etc, Whisper blew away Focals Wound up with money in the bank since the McIntosh sold for what he paid for them, and bought used Whispers from Legacy factory direct full warranty, money in the bank, and much better sound..Focals and McIntosh are grossly over priced, Legacy and VanAlstine better sound, less money
@@cengeb when I heard the Focal Frand Utopias, they were powered biamped by 1000 watt VAC monoblocks. Don’t honestly remember what powered the Legacys. All I can tell you is that everyone there wasblown away mesmerized by the Grand Utopia’s, and the Legacy’s sounded very ordinary, even dated by comparison. Bass extension and texture, elegantly liquid mids and highs, 1st order resolution and soundstage, stupendous non fatiguing but sparkling highs came together to pressurize the room in the best total presentation I ever heard. The Legacy rep out their speakers through the test paces and songs were comparatively flat and lifeless. Would have loved it come out otherwise as the Legacys were gorgeous examples of the cabinet designers prowess; but it was just not happening!
Thank you for saying “wife” rather than spouse. Kudos.
Just a bunch of crap right here. Paul, you can only recommend two speakers in the world? Fr30 and Magnepan? Good Lord please help us. all the other speaker manufacturers in the world just missed the boat and made insufficient speakers? this might be the worst video I've seen yet from you. I just attended axpona in Chicago today for about 6 hours. the show that you skipped because you were afraid of covid yet are claiming you have the best speakers in the world. certainly there were some speakers I liked at Axpona more than others but to say they're only two speaker manufacturers in the world that I would recommend? that's a bunch of hogwash if I ever heard it. Paul I guarantee there are a bunch of different speaker manufacturers you've never even heard in your life. so how can you disregard something you've never heard before? I mean a video like this really shouldn't even be done it's so ridiculous. and by the way I have three rigs in my place. two of them contain Anthony Gallo speakers with subwoofers and the other rig has Canton Tower speakers with subwoofers and all three of them sound very good at a fraction of the price of your speakers. all the attributes you list that is Speaker should have to be good they contain. so I alone I have proof that there are very very sonically gifted speakers besides the two manufacturers you favor.
That’s a cheap shot regarding Covid.
@@craigaust3306 I would call it a calling out. How long does someone stay trapped in a bubble?
@@craigaust3306 and by the way the guy has already admitted that he's gone out for wine and dinner after setting up speakers in Montreal. I guarantee you he's going to the grocery store or department store also. He's also going to work with coworkers that are doing whatever they want. Is totally illogical to pick on one event when he's being exposed to hundreds and thousands of people days after days that could have covid. Think it through
@@ryanschipp8513 Since you don’t know Paul personally, you can’t make guarantees. You are stating assumptions, which may or may not be true.
@@craigaust3306 I made 2 guarantees...... Answer me then....Do you think he has heard every speaker on the planet? Lastly, has he ever left his house to go to a grocery store or department? If you answer yes to #1 and no to #2 you are just being absurd and insulting your own intelligence.
Fr30 has no built in amps or supplied dsp...you are 20 years behind the industry..join 2022
"join 2022" - powered speakers with tone controls were done decades ago. Don't be so arrogant.
@@TheDanEdwards another reason PS is way out of touch, actually PHILIPS had servo controlled, self powered hi fi loudspeakers in the late 70's they invented it, others copied. Legacy Audio offers several models with DSP and built in high powered amps, PS audio is beyond over priced and out of touch
Powered speakers are still far off to what i want them too be, the choises are still limited in 2022
@@TheDanEdwards "tone controls" are 1970's correct. DSP is 21st century, join it
Adding subs WILL fix most of the dynamic limitations of the 20 series Maggie’s. The Maggie’s that got the weak dynamics reputation because they are single ended, the 20 series are double ended. The move more than far enough with the right amp to give you a HUGE improvement. Paul is totally wrong in this.
It's a good thing you're cute little lady.