There are definitely audible cues in the 60-40hz range, where many subs cross in. but even in the lower frequencies, 30 on down, there are left and right channel differences. Problems with cancellations and or peaks are more likely with a single sub because the bass coming from the speaker that is further away will not have the same phase relationship as the one closer to the sub. Much of the fullness of a soundstage is created by the lower frequency instruments and ambient reflections, depending on the recording environment. Anyone can measure this. Just play the left or right side by itself and you'll hear that each speaker is getting very different levels of bass.
If you have seen Top Gun Maverick in theaters you know that it matters. As they take off to go to the target one of the jets throttles up on the left side of the room. As it takes off propelling down the runway it literally rips right through you and goes out the right side. So worth it to experience that.
I have an old powerful sound system with stereo subwoofers. I use different speaker boxes for mid and high frenquencies and the original woofers. They sound perfectly integrated. I can listen to each and every bass notes and stereo imaging is great!
One sub (REL) dialed in correctly will blend seamlessly given you have speakers that go down to 45HZ or lower. When using bookshelf speakers, it makes sense to run stereo subs as the subs must be crossed over at a higher frequency. A single sub will become more directional when paired with small speakers.
Yes I agree stereo subs using proper R+L inputs to the subs... Because some music are mixed and recorded in away where the phase differences between the left and right are purposely manipulated to give the listener a certain effect and u need stereo subs also because u get to hear the effect of different mic set ups for different locations for certain recordings.
One more benefit in stereo subs. I do run stereo subs only coz I use my pair of JBL4320 which have 15" woofers each. I cross them at 120 or 180 or 220 Hz with active system. So it actually relieves much of the workload from the woofers in the "satellite" (main) speakers on each side. So when I run some speakers, e.g. AR5, The Advent Speaker (Large) etc., not only do I get deep bass, but I also get less distortion and higher SPL from the main speakers. When we use one sub only, we tend to cross over at much lower freq points to avoid the faults in stereo imaging due to the more apparent left right stereo span between the two main speakers. That way, we might be forced to run full freq range from the amp to the main speakers. So in relative terms, the benefit of running stereo subs lies also in better sound overall coz now, crossed over at higher points than 100hz, the main speakers will sound better under less load in the mid bass which is now taken by the subs.
The "main speakers" have been designed to produce whatever frequency range that their spec sheet states. So you are not "doing them any favors" by rolling off bass frequencies that they are capable of producing... Paul said that in another video
@@nissimtrifonov5314 : I'm sure you have a good reason not to run subs the way I described, and on the other side of the coin, I already traded the balance. Actually, it wasn't so much abt using the natural roll-off the main speakers had to offer, as abt the quality and thus the effect of the active filtering device would put on the system as a whole. I mean if you use lousy active (electronic) xover devices, those opamps inside those devices surely are not gonna give you clean filtred output to the main speakers And therefore it will be of paramount importance to use a good active xover device in order not to eff up the sound trading for deep bass. Right?
@@nissimtrifonov5314 The roll-off is exactly why a sub is useful. The spec of the speaker may say it starts at 35 Hz for example but it probably starts to really be good at producing sound from 50 Hz. By matching the speakers with a sub you can set the point of crossover.
Always use 2 subs.. One for left and one for the right because if you are like me you have the subs set to 'Direct' which is 200hz and above this becomes directional.. This gives dramatic impact to low vocals and drums which your main speakers aren't able to reproduce. Subs are vital!
@@cp070476 In my previous setup I had twin 6" vifa per side as woofers. And I ran the D130's as subs crossed about 150. I still ran them mono. I only swiched out of using the vifa drivers because the D130's are actually better at lower vocals, and the Hiel is able come low enough to meet them. So I probably have one of the most articulate and revealing setups that can be had anywhere.
They teach mixing and mastering engineers to make sure the low end is always mono. Kick drums and bass instruments should always be in the center, pretty much any engineer will agree with that. There are even tools designed to remove or enhance the "side" signal, which is information in the music which is not the identical in both the channels, and a popular setting is to make everything below ~100Hz mono. In other words you can have stereo subs but most of the time they will be getting the exact same signal. Special effects in movies might be an exception. There is, of course, the other reason to have more than one sub, which is that you can get a more even distribution of low frequencies across the listening room that way.
again, it depends on what you are doing .... original source all the way to the room and level played back... recording an orchestra or band live is different than on a board, or hip-hop vs. classical vs. jazz, etc. Small room vs. Large room also makes a difference, as well as listening area
wow this is like 50 years outdated from the days of LP and when we'd have to put two spaces after a period. the reason why they would teach that is to prevent the needle from being kicked out of the turn table. nowadays especially NOW and with upcoming ambisonic audio there's plenty of music with LF that doesn't down mix to mono till like 35hz. and then not everyone listens solely to EDM and hip hop.
I have a PrimaLuna Dialog integrated amp into a pair of Klipsch Heresy III speakers. I connected 2 Velodyne subs I had on hand connected to the amp left and right amp outputs. Used the Velodyne DSP to set up each sub for my listening position. Very happy with results. Paul, as usual, gives great advice.
The product manual for the dialogue hp integrated says “• 1 dedicated mono subwoofer output”. While REL says use speaker terminal outputs on amp, JL Audio Support team says subwoofer output. There is a technical paper on their website on the subject.
Good answer Paul... you made a very good point about the LF sound pressure changes... this really does happen too, but there's still this inevitable draw back and that is .... when the two subs are radiating the SAME frequency at the SAME amplitude then there can be and often is wave cancellation with the room. I must stress here that the bigger the room ( ultimately ending up as outdoors as an environment) the less likely this cancellation becomes
I tried two DIY subs. Despite most of a mangy dubstep I like has mono bass lines, I'll never go back to using a single sub. Bose was wrong about low frequencies. Even the best subs produce higher audible harmonics. Its easy to spot where the bass is from. The subs are tuned to 25Hz and bottom out at 12hz and are physically adjusted to be in phase with the mains. IMAX and Dolby Atmos theaters can't compare.
I have a DAC that I connect my bookshelf speakers and subwoofer to. I'd like to get another subwoofer of the same make and model, to enjoy stereo subwoofers. Should I just pass the L/R RCA output from my DAC to a single L/R input on either subwoofer (e.g. L RCA input on subwoofer to my left, and R RCA input on subwoofer to my right)?
Stereo subs do offer some advantages under some circumstances. However the chances of your subs placement near to your speakers being the best locations for low freq room response are near zero. There for, for 95% of us placing dual mono subs in the best locations for bass response/room issues is by the best choice, giving the largest gains in sound quality. Most people dont want to hear this because it's not a sexy as "stereo subs".
I wonder why some of the most prestigious rooms I ever attended run two subs right behind there speakers if there is no directionality,my duel subs are at there best there and I have moved them all over the room for best dispersion and right behind the main speakers have proofed to be the best spot and all the rooms I have been too seem to agree,they add so much to the main speakers it’s not funny,they improve all aspects of the main speakers sound I can’t even think of listening without them
Stereophonic phonograph records have monophonic bass. The cartridge couldn't track the groove were it otherwise. Chalk up another one for Digital. However one advantage of dual mono subs is that you always have both subs sharing the load equally. So which do I think is better? I dunno.
Please give me a hint, when I do connect the subs out from the high outputs, do I connect my speakers parallel on the same connectors? Or do I use the high output of the Subs?
I use dual subs. I accept the point about non-directionality, however I'm somewhat OCD about having everything symmetrical in a two channel setup. I also happen to think it sounds better.
How about standing waves? I have a single subwoofer and this is the main problem, it really sounds uneven depending on the position. I guess you can have more control with two.
When a Chinook helicopter flies over, I can tell the direction from the sound. This is the LF rotor sound, not the engines. Stereo subwoofers add directionality, pluss they're kick-ass.
The PrimaLuna's subwoofer output is just a mono full range signal with no built in filter. Not sure why he called it a "LFE". You use the sub's crossover to integrate the output with your speakers. Should work fine.
Just called it LFE since I didn't have a better name for it. Signal goes from there to a DSpeaker 2.0 DSP room correction unit and crossover filters and from there to the subfoower power amp.
@@JayBeBerg No problem, but I think it confused Paul a bit. The LFE, or Low Frequency Effects channel specifically refers to the .1 channel of a surround audio setup like 5.1.
So, I listen to music on my Denon AVR-X4400H in Stereo mode in my primary Home Theater/Music Listening Room. I believe the 2nd RCA Subwoofer output is independent of the 1st, so I think it will run true stereo subs. I guess my question is, since I'm running a Home Theater receiver should I just use the two RCA Subwoofer outputs? I eventually want to run a Stellar PS Audio Stereo Amplifer from the Denon Right and Left channel pre-outs to power my mains. Until then how would I connect my subwoofers without using the LFE inputs? Should I want to connect them differently in my dual purpose room? I have a HSU Research VTF-2 MK5 subwoofer and plan to buy a second. The receiver currently sets the crossover frequency on the subwoofer and I set it to 90 hertz.
I have just a hint for you. when you install the subs in the Denon configuration wizard and define the crossover frequence @120Hz, your High output to the speakers are nearly cut off, while the stereo line outputs are still funn range. So if you do use the sprout for your main, be aware, that they are full range.
@@Sentie77 I did try powering my mains with the Sprout100 a while back, but it didn't work. For some reason the Sprout100 needed to be turned up really loud and Audessy could barely run speaker setup. PS Audio support said the Sprout is not meant to be used in this manner, but their Stellar Amp and DAC are. I have my Sprout100 set up in my main level living room (secondary listening/TV room). I'm just wondering if I should try connecting my subwoofer a different way (not the subwoofer RCA outputs?) since I do listen to music through my Denon AVR-X4400H.
The person asking the question probably misspoke. If you look up that amp on their site, it doesn't refer to the mono/subwoofer out as "LFE" even once. It likely is just a plain mono signal, no low pass filter.
Two smaller subs are always better than one big sub. And you can even go more than two and spreading them along your front wall, because the more you have the more even the bass response in your room will get (generally speaking anyways). And playing all those subs in stereo or in mono ain't that important, the important rhing is that you are spreading it out. Since because of the wavelength etc if your having many small subs spread out they will kinda act like one big woofer cone.
Thanks Paul. This may sound like a silly question, but do both subs have to be the same? The reason I ask is I currently use a Rel SHO3 sub with my system in mono, but I have a Rel T9i which I could also connect to create a stereo sub set-up. But would that work?
Not needed. But it wil decrease overal sound quality to that of the worst sub. If Sub A is sealed and sounds punchy, and sub B is ported but muddy. Your overal sound will sound muddy. you could set two crossovers. down to 40 Hertz on the sealed, and then let the ported take over below that (if it goes that low). Good reason to use two subs is to make the bass more uniform. So if your main goal with the subwoofers is home cinema any kind of properly placed multi subs are great. Because more seats will have that hous shaking bass. If sound quality is your goal, get one good sub with your budget and cross it over at 80 Hertz. (this is when the sound becomes so omnidirectional you will have a reeeally hard time telling where it comes from).
@@lm6036 Good point and that sounds about right, the worst of the worst statement. For music at a REASONABLE volume doesn't usually make any half decent sub "muddy". Admittedly. I use two identical subs. I'm happy, don't use a 5.1 or 7.1 and movies though
@@paulgolub6823 When I had an M+K three piece system I had two subs. But since I went to floor standing speakers I don't need a sub. Plenty of bass. I find that better electronics make a big difference.
I disagree with the idea that you cannot localize low frequencies.... Yes they may RADIATE ommnidirectionally, but I've always been able to localize my sub... in a general sense. In my living room system, I currently have one sub off to the left, and it pressurizes the room unevenly. I have run dual subs, and they pressurize the room more evenly. In my other family room, I run stereo subs, and it's the best. I can make them mono, and certain music feels less wide and spacious. It greatly depends on the recording, as to how much stereo information exists below 80 Hz, but any orchestral music will certainly benefit from stereo subs.
I'd usually say centered, yes. But only because I feel low-end is still a little directional. It's not that obvious, but I do notice it's more "from the side" when it's in a corner or to the side in any way. I usually don't have space between the speakers myself, but I would prefer it. If it's the best... Usually people say to put a woofer in a corner or at least against a wall, which could also be front or rear and center, but it depends on your room and listening position. - Doesn't hurt to try things out. :)
master booth coming along Nice. I can't wait to see the dB meters dance to the music :) I prefer stereo subs even in small rooms! (if properly treated to deal with the big waves bouncing around)
I disagree for another reason : almost all recordings are mono for frequencies under 100 Hz . So any pressure differences between left and right will be almost always non existent . The reason for this is that low frequencies are very taxing for the woofers (high mechanical excursions wich can lead to damage) : spreading the load across the available surface of both woofers halves the necessary excursion. Even if the recording engineer decided to record the sub 100 Hz spectrum in stereo , it is still a good idea to sum the signal to mono , even if you have 2 subs . The small benefit of having a nearly non existent stereo image below 100 Hz (too big wave lengths vs room dimensions) is not worth the risk of destroying your subs .
I have a different experience. I am running dual mono subs for my L-R bookshelves. Crossed over at 100. Yet I hear the bass coming from the appropriate bookshelf speaker as per the recording. The subs disappear giving no clue of their existence.
@My Name Not so. I listen to a lot of acoustic jazz and the upright bass stands out and so do the bass drum and electric bass (in Rock). Same with the cellos and double basses in classical. All the low frequencies of these are mostly in the 40 to 100 range.
The answer is in the video actually. You connect subs with speaker line inputs & outputs. Sub frequencies are taken to the sub-woofer, the higher are crossed over to the other speaker.
@@stonefree1911 No. You run your speaker out cables to the speaker in jacks or binding posts of the subwoofer. You then connect your speakers to the speaker out jacks / binding posts of the sub. The sub will filter the frequencies, low through the sub, and pass through the higher frequencies to your speakers. Important. Your subs must have high level speaker ins and outs for you to do this. Many subs only have just the one rca input which won't work.
Aside from the method of using the speaker level outputs mentioned in other comments (which is the recommended method in the video) the Sprout100 has stereo RCA outs that are volume controlled. You can run one each of these to a sub and use the low pass filter in the subs. This is mentioned in the video as more of a back up plan, but options are good to have. The single sub out on the sprout is easy to use and definately keeps cable clutter to a minimum but they do provide options of other outputs should you want to get more in depth with your setup, which is nice.
I would always recommend using 2 or more Subs, but not as Stereo. I would configure them as dual mono, place them diagonally and see what you get a flat FR in the corresponding region!
There are a couple of other ways to utilise two subs. You can put them side by side, or one on top of the other which couples the low frequencies and increases the SPL from them higher than if the subs are separated left and right. Or if you use sub models designed to operate in cardioid mode, you have one facing forward and one facing back which creates cardioid pattern low frequency sound out the front, and nothing at the rear. Very good for better controlling those low frequencies in a small and or difficult rooms. Personally I use two Yamana DSX18 subs crossed over at 100 HZ, in extended frequency mode (down to 30 Hz) and set up in cardiod mode for my small 16' x 25' lounge. I'm fortunate to be able to have the rear of all speakers 7' away' from wall. The cardioid subs have really cleaned up the low frequencies compared to using just a single 18" sub previously! Oh the left and right areYamaha's latest model DZR10 active speakers. They are truly amazing!
2 different powered subwoofers with the left channel signal playing through the sub on the left side next to your left main speaker and the right channel signal playing through the sub on the right side next to the right main speaker.
The Primaluna doesn’t have LFE on the sub output. It does however only provide one mono sub output, a serious mistake in my view. It probably cost more to sum the outputs than just provide L/R outputs, so I’m not sure why they did that.
If you would like to investigate the matter a little further, a good place to start is this talk: th-cam.com/video/xuoDo_QKeLI/w-d-xo.html Google the author and other names and concepts mentioned in the video. Great stuff.
Un diffusore completo non ha bisogno di sub woofer.. tanto meno di un sub attivo . Supponiamo di avere un sistema con satelliti è un solo sub attivo .. regoliamo attentamente la fase , il livello del guadagno del sub .. tutto sembra essere perfetto ... ma poi modifichiamo il VOLUME dal nostro amplificatore stereo .. come è possibile pensare che il volume dei satelliti e del sub sia sempre proporzionato all equilibrio impostato in precedenza ? È praticamente impossibile poiché 1) l amplificatore stereo che pilota i satelliti e differente da quello del sub woofer 2) la sensibilità dei satelliti e della parte passiva del sub è diversa .. il risultato è che si è sempre a regolare all infinito il guadagno del sub woofer che a ogni variazione ( brano volume ecc) e sempre troppo o troppo poco .. un sub passivo stereo potrebbe sembrare la giusta soluzione ma di fatto non abbiamo fatto altro che ricreare due diffusori stereo completi ..
I reckon 'time' is the problem: the low's have to arrive at your ears at the same TIME as the high frequencies, that's why -without (digital) sound processing- the low frequency speaker has to be located at the same distance to your ears as the mid and high frequency units. The same 'problem' counts for the reflections of the speaker units. That is why i always laugh about Bose, the company that claims you can put your sub 'in the neighbors garage' without sonic problems.
Klipshorns have delayed bass because of the longer signal path in the folded horn. I'd love to hear some that have a digital delay for the upper frequencies.
How can we take your studio seriously if you're not running ATC speakers they are the most revealing speakers for studios like Nashville use them studios in New York and other places they have the best mid-range drivers out of any speaker on the market if you want revealing sound in your studio has to be ATC or at least tannoy but ATC is better come on Paul get it together
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio ok Paul that's not the speakers in the background why do u disagree? They have the best mid-range for picking up detail and placement. What would you go with?? Yes and don't say that. Are you going with the scm 300a on the back wall what about desk small speakers scm25a. The scm100 is a very good speaker what about the ATC active scm40 ever heard them designed for hi-fi use
Bass violin is always left of center and behind vocals in all of my multi-channel and stereo Diana Krall music: CD, SACD, and LP. This condition is satisfied with one JBL 2235H sub, which is served frequencies below 60hz and a pair of JBL L100t3's producing higher frequencies. In other words, there's no point what so ever in stereo subs, since the stereo woofers produce the low frequencies which have directionality.
Hay jan, from Finland I've got a great idea, instead of adding some 2 bit subwoofers to tinpot speakers why don't you buy a decent pair of speakers then you wouldn't need subs. THE END.
Well, I wouldn't call them tinpot, they're almost full range. The space is just so big I need a stronger foundation for the sound. Also prefer sclassic tandmount speakers for the imaging and the disappearing act provided.
@@JayBeBerg hi , yes no offense intended, I'm just sick of hearing shit advice being dished out like cold porrage in a Oliver twist movie,, just use equipment to suit your space, two channel STEREO,,, doesn't come with a sub,, how many two channel Amplifiers have you seen with twin sub outputs ? All I'm saying is, don't compensate for something that's not working.
I have reasonably full range speakers (Martin Logan SL-3s), but I enjoy the extra punch of a sub connected speaker level (Velodyne F-1200). Too poor to upgrade my old sub, and DEFINITELY too poor to manage two of them! 😁
i use a cambrigde P25 mk 100watts with 2 wharfedale diamond 9.0 and 2 Akai - sw tss run in parallel at 3.7ohms for mid and high range and for my sub i use a car amp and sub its a starsound digital ssa-r-3350.1 with a pioneer 12' ts-w-311s4 1400watts and soon im goin to fix up my homethreater amp to run a center and 2 rear speakers its a LG amp
I dissagree. I was particularly looking for Paul's response on this issue. While he stated many times he prefers dual subs, I don't think he ever explained why before. So this was useful for me. Have more subwoofer questions btw, beware ! :P
Yes but I am still waiting for the right answer. LOL! How do you do this for 50 years and not know how to set up 2 subwoofers and take advantage of the true benefits of having two subs. There is no left and right when 100hz is 11' long especially if your room is only 16 feet wide like so many. Serious people who know about sound wrote about this decades ago and there is no mystery on what to do, only measuring and delaying. So yes repetitive and wrong. Maybe on the 4th try we will actually look at this simple issue with some free software and a $60 microphone. No excuse for passing on misinformation like this. Oh and I forgot 2 channel people still play records which are mixed to mono in the bass anyway. :(....c'mon 30 years of the internet and we seem to know less and less!!!!
@@JurMalafi Maybe you can provide the "right" answer then. You seem to know it, but prefer to rant and bash instead. Your comment is hence not all that useful (I know, it's yt comments so story of our lives but..) . The main point should be to help other people out, i think. Peace !? :)
@@entity279 Just Google, why do I need to explain it? I gave you 2 VERY good reasons stereo subwoofers is a ridiculous concept, particularly if you play records. If you are curious, there are many peer reviewed articles with pictures available for you to read and digest. Save yourself the time of reading in a forum, seldom is the right answer presented. Harman has multiple sub studies, Earl Geddes, Klein & Hummel.... that's how I learned about multiple subwoofers, I read the research. and then I spent $150 on software and a microphone to calibrate my system (every room is different). Best money I ever spent. This is not a place to teach room acoustics 101 and how low frequencies behave in small rooms. :) but the information is out there and should be easy to find.
@@JurMalafi Hmm but if the premise is that one already has two subs (due to the way the question was asked). Why not run them in stereo configuration then? Even if there's little benefit. There is some, sometimes at least.
he emphasized the word "augment" like he was trying to piss me off because i always say don't use subwoofer as an augmentation. eh... not very interesting subject anyway.
@@Invictus96vid he emphasized the word... twice. and as far as i know i'm the only one around here that is against the use of subwoofer as an extension/augmentation and i said that out loud a lot of times... and everywhere too. i don't know if he was trying to piss me off or not but he clearly emphasized the word for some reason.
I am sorry but subs have no place in a stereo system, if you need them you are either a bass head or you have poorly designed speakers. They colour the sound and I have yet to see an implementation where they sound natural.
@@mornecoetzee735 because all the subs on the market are designed to be an extension, not an integral part of the system as they're supposed to be (passive subs are exceptions, kind of). subwoofer is not about the amount of bass, it's about work assignment, assigning each driver to the work they're best at. and for a subwoofer, is handling all the heavy excursion, letting the rest have the headroom they're supposed to have and minimizing intermodulation on the woofers. it's about working smart instead of working hard. if you want the sub to work well, the entire system has to be designed with the sub in mind in the first place. the entire system needs to be actively crossed over (and properly) or you end up with the passive crossover or band overlap messing up the sound all over again. all the speakers also need to be the same type too. you see, there's a stack of requirements to be met. with the virtually infinite choice of equipment out there, if you don't know exactly what you're doing and just keep mixing things together, you'll never get it right.
I might disagree on stereo subwoofers. Subwoofers are omidirectional. Placing 2 in a room might cancel each other out.1 is enough mate. Just buy a big one.
There are definitely audible cues in the 60-40hz range, where many subs cross in. but even in the lower frequencies, 30 on down, there are left and right channel differences. Problems with cancellations and or peaks are more likely with a single sub because the bass coming from the speaker that is further away will not have the same phase relationship as the one closer to the sub. Much of the fullness of a soundstage is created by the lower frequency instruments and ambient reflections, depending on the recording environment. Anyone can measure this. Just play the left or right side by itself and you'll hear that each speaker is getting very different levels of bass.
If you have seen Top Gun Maverick in theaters you know that it matters. As they take off to go to the target one of the jets throttles up on the left side of the room. As it takes off propelling down the runway it literally rips right through you and goes out the right side. So worth it to experience that.
I have an old powerful sound system with stereo subwoofers. I use different speaker boxes for mid and high frenquencies and the original woofers. They sound perfectly integrated. I can listen to each and every bass notes and stereo imaging is great!
Subs from REL has Speaker Line levels. The Sub is connected in the same output of the main speakers.
One sub (REL) dialed in correctly will blend seamlessly given you have speakers that go down to 45HZ or lower. When using bookshelf speakers, it makes sense to run stereo subs as the subs must be crossed over at a higher frequency. A single sub will become more directional when paired with small speakers.
Yes I agree stereo subs using proper R+L inputs to the subs... Because some music are mixed and recorded in away where the phase differences between the left and right are purposely manipulated to give the listener a certain effect and u need stereo subs also because u get to hear the effect of different mic set ups for different locations for certain recordings.
One more benefit in stereo subs. I do run stereo subs only coz I use my pair of JBL4320 which have 15" woofers each.
I cross them at 120 or 180 or 220 Hz with active system. So it actually relieves much of the workload from the woofers in the "satellite" (main) speakers on each side. So when I run some speakers, e.g. AR5, The Advent Speaker (Large) etc., not only do I get deep bass, but I also get less distortion and higher SPL from the main speakers.
When we use one sub only, we tend to cross over at much lower freq points to avoid the faults in stereo imaging due to the more apparent left right stereo span between the two main speakers. That way, we might be forced to run full freq range from the amp to the main speakers.
So in relative terms, the benefit of running stereo subs lies also in better sound overall coz now, crossed over at higher points than 100hz, the main speakers will sound better under less load in the mid bass which is now taken by the subs.
The "main speakers" have been designed to produce whatever frequency range that their spec sheet states. So you are not "doing them any favors" by rolling off bass frequencies that they are capable of producing... Paul said that in another video
@@nissimtrifonov5314 : I'm sure you have a good reason not to run subs the way I described, and on the other side of the coin, I already traded the balance.
Actually, it wasn't so much abt using the natural roll-off the main speakers had to offer, as abt the quality and thus the effect of the active filtering device would put on the system as a whole. I mean if you use lousy active (electronic) xover devices, those opamps inside those devices surely are not gonna give you clean filtred output to the main speakers And therefore it will be of paramount importance to use a good active xover device in order not to eff up the sound trading for deep bass.
Right?
@@nissimtrifonov5314 The roll-off is exactly why a sub is useful. The spec of the speaker may say it starts at 35 Hz for example but it probably starts to really be good at producing sound from 50 Hz. By matching the speakers with a sub you can set the point of crossover.
Always use 2 subs.. One for left and one for the right because if you are like me you have the subs set to 'Direct' which is 200hz and above this becomes directional.. This gives dramatic impact to low vocals and drums which your main speakers aren't able to reproduce. Subs are vital!
I cross my subs far below 200... Mine are sitting about 60hz and lower.
@@wishusknight3009 What speakers are you running if i may ask?
@@cp070476 I do have very robust mains. I run a 2 way biamp of JBL d130 woofers and AMT1 Heil tweeters. My sub is a single 15 in a tri-tune enclosure.
@@wishusknight3009 15in drivers they should handle drums and upper bass well.
@@cp070476 In my previous setup I had twin 6" vifa per side as woofers. And I ran the D130's as subs crossed about 150. I still ran them mono. I only swiched out of using the vifa drivers because the D130's are actually better at lower vocals, and the Hiel is able come low enough to meet them. So I probably have one of the most articulate and revealing setups that can be had anywhere.
Thanks Paul. You answered a couple of questions I had about mono vs. stereo subs and the ideal output/input connections. Much appreciated. ;)
They teach mixing and mastering engineers to make sure the low end is always mono. Kick drums and bass instruments should always be in the center, pretty much any engineer will agree with that.
There are even tools designed to remove or enhance the "side" signal, which is information in the music which is not the identical in both the channels, and a popular setting is to make everything below ~100Hz mono.
In other words you can have stereo subs but most of the time they will be getting the exact same signal. Special effects in movies might be an exception.
There is, of course, the other reason to have more than one sub, which is that you can get a more even distribution of low frequencies across the listening room that way.
Do mix and mastering engineers still do that? I heard they make below 100Hz mono in the days of LP.
again, it depends on what you are doing .... original source all the way to the room and level played back... recording an orchestra or band live is different than on a board, or hip-hop vs. classical vs. jazz, etc.
Small room vs. Large room also makes a difference, as well as listening area
wow this is like 50 years outdated from the days of LP and when we'd have to put two spaces after a period.
the reason why they would teach that is to prevent the needle from being kicked out of the turn table. nowadays especially NOW and with upcoming ambisonic audio there's plenty of music with LF that doesn't down mix to mono till like 35hz. and then not everyone listens solely to EDM and hip hop.
I have a PrimaLuna Dialog integrated amp into a pair of Klipsch Heresy III speakers. I connected 2 Velodyne subs I had on hand connected to the amp left and right amp outputs. Used the Velodyne DSP to set up each sub for my listening position. Very happy with results. Paul, as usual, gives great advice.
The product manual for the dialogue hp integrated says “• 1 dedicated mono subwoofer output”. While REL says use speaker terminal outputs on amp, JL Audio Support team says subwoofer output. There is a technical paper on their website on the subject.
Dual Stereo Subs make a huge difference in all Octaves. High level inputs REL/Sumiko etc.
I run front and rear subwoofers.
Earthquake 15" in front, and SVS PB 16 Ultra rear.
It sounds amazing.
wow great advice here. isn't it also true that there are certain music pieces with bass notes that are stereo and so channel specific.
I agree, Rel and Vandersteen subs both do the hi level in which is the best way to have a integrated sound which Paul’s new speakers use also. 👍
Good answer Paul... you made a very good point about the LF sound pressure changes... this really does happen too, but there's still this inevitable draw back and that is .... when the two subs are radiating the SAME frequency at the SAME amplitude then there can be and often is wave cancellation with the room.
I must stress here that the bigger the room ( ultimately ending up as outdoors as an environment) the less likely this cancellation becomes
I tried two DIY subs. Despite most of a mangy dubstep I like has mono bass lines, I'll never go back to using a single sub. Bose was wrong about low frequencies. Even the best subs produce higher audible harmonics. Its easy to spot where the bass is from.
The subs are tuned to 25Hz and bottom out at 12hz and are physically adjusted to be in phase with the mains. IMAX and Dolby Atmos theaters can't compare.
I have a DAC that I connect my bookshelf speakers and subwoofer to. I'd like to get another subwoofer of the same make and model, to enjoy stereo subwoofers. Should I just pass the L/R RCA output from my DAC to a single L/R input on either subwoofer (e.g. L RCA input on subwoofer to my left, and R RCA input on subwoofer to my right)?
Stereo subs do offer some advantages under some circumstances. However the chances of your subs placement near to your speakers being the best locations for low freq room response are near zero. There for, for 95% of us placing dual mono subs in the best locations for bass response/room issues is by the best choice, giving the largest gains in sound quality. Most people dont want to hear this because it's not a sexy as "stereo subs".
I wonder why some of the most prestigious rooms I ever attended run two subs right behind there speakers if there is no directionality,my duel subs are at there best there and I have moved them all over the room for best dispersion and right behind the main speakers have proofed to be the best spot and all the rooms I have been too seem to agree,they add so much to the main speakers it’s not funny,they improve all aspects of the main speakers sound I can’t even think of listening without them
Stereophonic phonograph records have monophonic bass. The cartridge couldn't track the groove were it otherwise. Chalk up another one for Digital. However one advantage of dual mono subs is that you always have both subs sharing the load equally. So which do I think is better? I dunno.
Hi Paul, how to connect 2 sub woofer to my stereo power amplifier?
When you refer to stereo subs are you referring to dual subs????
You want to run it through a mini DSP is the best, place each sub right into the corner against the sidewall ideally want 4 in each corner
Please give me a hint, when I do connect the subs out from the high outputs, do I connect my speakers parallel on the same connectors? Or do I use the high output of the Subs?
Paul, the bob ross of sound. thanks for the info.
I would say more like Willy Wonka of sound
@Larry Niles no it's called humour try and get some hahahah
I use dual subs. I accept the point about non-directionality, however I'm somewhat OCD about having everything symmetrical in a two channel setup. I also happen to think it sounds better.
I'd love to have 2. Think I'll only have room for 1. But either way I'll use the high level inputs!!
How about standing waves? I have a single subwoofer and this is the main problem, it really sounds uneven depending on the position. I guess you can have more control with two.
Or more than two.
So is it better to have 2 smaller subs or 1 large sub? like two 8 inch subs or one 14 inch sub. having two 14s is not an option.
When a Chinook helicopter flies over, I can tell the direction from the sound. This is the LF rotor sound, not the engines. Stereo subwoofers add directionality, pluss they're kick-ass.
I wonder what mixing board that is in front of Paul.
A Studer. Once was owned by Neil Young.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio I never saw a Studer mixing console….I know they made tape machines.
The PrimaLuna's subwoofer output is just a mono full range signal with no built in filter. Not sure why he called it a "LFE". You use the sub's crossover to integrate the output with your speakers. Should work fine.
Just called it LFE since I didn't have a better name for it. Signal goes from there to a DSpeaker 2.0 DSP room correction unit and crossover filters and from there to the subfoower power amp.
@@JayBeBerg No problem, but I think it confused Paul a bit. The LFE, or Low Frequency Effects channel specifically refers to the .1 channel of a surround audio setup like 5.1.
So, I listen to music on my Denon AVR-X4400H in Stereo mode in my primary Home Theater/Music Listening Room. I believe the 2nd RCA Subwoofer output is independent of the 1st, so I think it will run true stereo subs. I guess my question is, since I'm running a Home Theater receiver should I just use the two RCA Subwoofer outputs? I eventually want to run a Stellar PS Audio Stereo Amplifer from the Denon Right and Left channel pre-outs to power my mains. Until then how would I connect my subwoofers without using the LFE inputs? Should I want to connect them differently in my dual purpose room? I have a HSU Research VTF-2 MK5 subwoofer and plan to buy a second. The receiver currently sets the crossover frequency on the subwoofer and I set it to 90 hertz.
I have just a hint for you. when you install the subs in the Denon configuration wizard and define the crossover frequence @120Hz, your High output to the speakers are nearly cut off, while the stereo line outputs are still funn range.
So if you do use the sprout for your main, be aware, that they are full range.
@@Sentie77 I did try powering my mains with the Sprout100 a while back, but it didn't work. For some reason the Sprout100 needed to be turned up really loud and Audessy could barely run speaker setup. PS Audio support said the Sprout is not meant to be used in this manner, but their Stellar Amp and DAC are. I have my Sprout100 set up in my main level living room (secondary listening/TV room). I'm just wondering if I should try connecting my subwoofer a different way (not the subwoofer RCA outputs?) since I do listen to music through my Denon AVR-X4400H.
The person asking the question probably misspoke. If you look up that amp on their site, it doesn't refer to the mono/subwoofer out as "LFE" even once. It likely is just a plain mono signal, no low pass filter.
Two smaller subs are always better than one big sub. And you can even go more than two and spreading them along your front wall, because the more you have the more even the bass response in your room will get (generally speaking anyways). And playing all those subs in stereo or in mono ain't that important, the important rhing is that you are spreading it out. Since because of the wavelength etc if your having many small subs spread out they will kinda act like one big woofer cone.
And this is why the ideal sub which cannot be located is a dipole sub : net zero pressure in the room
Thanks Paul. This may sound like a silly question, but do both subs have to be the same? The reason I ask is I currently use a Rel SHO3 sub with my system in mono, but I have a Rel T9i which I could also connect to create a stereo sub set-up. But would that work?
You own them already, so try it for no money.
Not needed. But it wil decrease overal sound quality to that of the worst sub.
If Sub A is sealed and sounds punchy, and sub B is ported but muddy. Your overal sound will sound muddy.
you could set two crossovers. down to 40 Hertz on the sealed, and then let the ported take over below that (if it goes that low).
Good reason to use two subs is to make the bass more uniform. So if your main goal with the subwoofers is home cinema any kind of properly placed multi subs are great.
Because more seats will have that hous shaking bass.
If sound quality is your goal, get one good sub with your budget and cross it over at 80 Hertz. (this is when the sound becomes so omnidirectional you will have a reeeally hard time telling where it comes from).
The more similar the better.
@@lm6036 Good point and that sounds about right, the worst of the worst statement. For music at a REASONABLE volume doesn't usually make any half decent sub "muddy".
Admittedly. I use two identical subs. I'm happy, don't use a 5.1 or 7.1 and movies though
First time I ever heard of a stereo sub. Very interesting subject tho.
Look at videos from SVS on the benefits of dual subs.
@@paulgolub6823
When I had an M+K three piece system I had two subs. But since I went to floor standing speakers I don't need a sub. Plenty of bass. I find that better electronics make a big difference.
this is the question I always want to ask
I disagree with the idea that you cannot localize low frequencies.... Yes they may RADIATE ommnidirectionally, but I've always been able to localize my sub... in a general sense. In my living room system, I currently have one sub off to the left, and it pressurizes the room unevenly. I have run dual subs, and they pressurize the room more evenly. In my other family room, I run stereo subs, and it's the best. I can make them mono, and certain music feels less wide and spacious. It greatly depends on the recording, as to how much stereo information exists below 80 Hz, but any orchestral music will certainly benefit from stereo subs.
It's room dependent. In my bedroom setup I can localize, but not in my living room setup.
Excellent explanation!
Hey Paul, how do I use this method on my SproutOne?
Use a mini DSP you can still take it from the speaker terminals
Where's the correct position for a subwoofer? Maybe in the middle of the speakers?
I'd usually say centered, yes. But only because I feel low-end is still a little directional. It's not that obvious, but I do notice it's more "from the side" when it's in a corner or to the side in any way. I usually don't have space between the speakers myself, but I would prefer it.
If it's the best... Usually people say to put a woofer in a corner or at least against a wall, which could also be front or rear and center, but it depends on your room and listening position. - Doesn't hurt to try things out. :)
master booth coming along Nice. I can't wait to see the dB meters dance to the music :)
I prefer stereo subs even in small rooms! (if properly treated to deal with the big waves bouncing around)
I disagree for another reason : almost all recordings are mono for frequencies under 100 Hz . So any pressure differences between left and right will be almost always non existent . The reason for this is that low frequencies are very taxing for the woofers (high mechanical excursions wich can lead to damage) : spreading the load across the available surface of both woofers halves the necessary excursion. Even if the recording engineer decided to record the sub 100 Hz spectrum in stereo , it is still a good idea to sum the signal to mono , even if you have 2 subs . The small benefit of having a nearly non existent stereo image below 100 Hz (too big wave lengths vs room dimensions) is not worth the risk of destroying your subs .
Dual mono is still better than mono, as you wouldn't get any stereo placement anyway with a single sub.
Paul are you going to make a sub ?
You're better off using specialised companies for subs they know what they're doing
I have a different experience. I am running dual mono subs for my L-R bookshelves. Crossed over at 100. Yet I hear the bass coming from the appropriate bookshelf speaker as per the recording. The subs disappear giving no clue of their existence.
@My Name Not so. I listen to a lot of acoustic jazz and the upright bass stands out and so do the bass drum and electric bass (in Rock). Same with the cellos and double basses in classical. All the low frequencies of these are mostly in the 40 to 100 range.
@@rcpdox11 Not forgetting the piano, contra bassoon, tuba and harp.
@@jonathansturm4163 yes indeed.
How do you hook up 2 subs to a Sprout100?
The answer is in the video actually. You connect subs with speaker line inputs & outputs. Sub frequencies are taken to the sub-woofer, the higher are crossed over to the other speaker.
@@mcaddcOk. So would I use y-adapters out of the L&R banana plug speaker outs and run one line to the mains and the other to the subs?
@@stonefree1911 No. You run your speaker out cables to the speaker in jacks or binding posts of the subwoofer. You then connect your speakers to the speaker out jacks / binding posts of the sub. The sub will filter the frequencies, low through the sub, and pass through the higher frequencies to your speakers. Important. Your subs must have high level speaker ins and outs for you to do this. Many subs only have just the one rca input which won't work.
Aside from the method of using the speaker level outputs mentioned in other comments (which is the recommended method in the video) the Sprout100 has stereo RCA outs that are volume controlled. You can run one each of these to a sub and use the low pass filter in the subs. This is mentioned in the video as more of a back up plan, but options are good to have. The single sub out on the sprout is easy to use and definately keeps cable clutter to a minimum but they do provide options of other outputs should you want to get more in depth with your setup, which is nice.
I would always recommend using 2 or more Subs, but not as Stereo. I would configure them as dual mono, place them diagonally and see what you get a flat FR in the corresponding region!
As always Paul is the glass half-full or is the glass half empty my father with Alzheimer's thanks Paul and have a great day😮
I've always referred to 2 subs in a room being fed the same signal as Dual Mono Subs, not Stereo Subs.
Exactly right and the viewer was incorrect in taking the mono signal to make stereo subs so he told him to use high level inputs
I was told bass is omni directional and that when you stack (put in close vicinity) subs it multiplies the bass output
Ah, the Studer.
Rel is the answer .
Yes
There are a couple of other ways to utilise two subs. You can put them side by side, or one on top of the other which couples the low frequencies and increases the SPL from them higher than if the subs are separated left and right.
Or if you use sub models designed to operate in cardioid mode, you have one facing forward and one facing back which creates cardioid pattern low frequency sound out the front, and nothing at the rear. Very good for better controlling those low frequencies in a small and or difficult rooms.
Personally I use two Yamana DSX18 subs crossed over at 100 HZ, in extended frequency mode (down to 30 Hz) and set up in cardiod mode for my small 16' x 25' lounge. I'm fortunate to be able to have the rear of all speakers 7' away' from wall. The cardioid subs have really cleaned up the low frequencies compared to using just a single 18" sub previously!
Oh the left and right areYamaha's latest model DZR10 active speakers. They are truly amazing!
What is a stereo sub woofer ????????
They mean dual subs.
@@paulgolub6823 Thanks
2 different powered subwoofers with the left channel signal playing through the sub on the left side next to your left main speaker and the right channel signal playing through the sub on the right side next to the right main speaker.
The Primaluna doesn’t have LFE on the sub output. It does however only provide one mono sub output, a serious mistake in my view. It probably cost more to sum the outputs than just provide L/R outputs, so I’m not sure why they did that.
If you would like to investigate the matter a little further, a good place to start is this talk:
th-cam.com/video/xuoDo_QKeLI/w-d-xo.html
Google the author and other names and concepts mentioned in the video. Great stuff.
Un diffusore completo non ha bisogno di sub woofer.. tanto meno di un sub attivo . Supponiamo di avere un sistema con satelliti è un solo sub attivo .. regoliamo attentamente la fase , il livello del guadagno del sub .. tutto sembra essere perfetto ... ma poi modifichiamo il VOLUME dal nostro amplificatore stereo .. come è possibile pensare che il volume dei satelliti e del sub sia sempre proporzionato all equilibrio impostato in precedenza ? È praticamente impossibile poiché 1) l amplificatore stereo che pilota i satelliti e differente da quello del sub woofer 2) la sensibilità dei satelliti e della parte passiva del sub è diversa .. il risultato è che si è sempre a regolare all infinito il guadagno del sub woofer che a ogni variazione ( brano volume ecc) e sempre troppo o troppo poco .. un sub passivo stereo potrebbe sembrare la giusta soluzione ma di fatto non abbiamo fatto altro che ricreare due diffusori stereo completi ..
I reckon 'time' is the problem: the low's have to arrive at your ears at the same TIME as the high frequencies, that's why -without (digital) sound processing- the low frequency speaker has to be located at the same distance to your ears as the mid and high frequency units.
The same 'problem' counts for the reflections of the speaker units.
That is why i always laugh about Bose, the company that claims you can put your sub 'in the neighbors garage' without sonic problems.
Klipshorns have delayed bass because of the longer signal path in the folded horn. I'd love to hear some that have a digital delay for the upper frequencies.
How can we take your studio seriously if you're not running ATC speakers they are the most revealing speakers for studios like Nashville use them studios in New York and other places they have the best mid-range drivers out of any speaker on the market if you want revealing sound in your studio has to be ATC or at least tannoy but ATC is better come on Paul get it together
@Larry Niles don't know mate never heard of them doesn't sound good though
Actually, we are running ATC though I wouldn't necessarily agree they are the best. It's what Gus wanted.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio ok Paul that's not the speakers in the background why do u disagree? They have the best mid-range for picking up detail and placement. What would you go with?? Yes and don't say that. Are you going with the scm 300a on the back wall what about desk small speakers scm25a. The scm100 is a very good speaker what about the ATC active scm40 ever heard them designed for hi-fi use
Bass violin is always left of center and behind vocals in all of my multi-channel and stereo Diana Krall music: CD, SACD, and LP. This condition is satisfied with one JBL 2235H sub, which is served frequencies below 60hz and a pair of JBL L100t3's producing higher frequencies. In other words, there's no point what so ever in stereo subs, since the stereo woofers produce the low frequencies which have directionality.
Hay jan, from Finland I've got a great idea, instead of adding some 2 bit subwoofers to tinpot speakers why don't you buy a decent pair of speakers then you wouldn't need subs. THE END.
Well, I wouldn't call them tinpot, they're almost full range. The space is just so big I need a stronger foundation for the sound. Also prefer sclassic tandmount speakers for the imaging and the disappearing act provided.
@@JayBeBerg hi , yes no offense intended, I'm just sick of hearing shit advice being dished out like cold porrage in a Oliver twist movie,, just use equipment to suit your space, two channel STEREO,,, doesn't come with a sub,, how many two channel Amplifiers have you seen with twin sub outputs ?
All I'm saying is, don't compensate for something that's not working.
I have reasonably full range speakers (Martin Logan SL-3s), but I enjoy the extra punch of a sub connected speaker level (Velodyne F-1200). Too poor to upgrade my old sub, and DEFINITELY too poor to manage two of them! 😁
@Larry Niles do what !
Best floorstanding speaker under 1000?
Maggie LRS
i use a cambrigde P25 mk 100watts with 2 wharfedale diamond 9.0 and 2 Akai - sw tss run in parallel at 3.7ohms for mid and high range and for my sub i use a car amp and sub its a starsound digital ssa-r-3350.1 with a pioneer 12' ts-w-311s4 1400watts and soon im goin to fix up my homethreater amp to run a center and 2 rear speakers its a LG amp
Same questions over and over. Edit...This particular question has been addressed at least three times already.
I dissagree. I was particularly looking for Paul's response on this issue. While he stated many times he prefers dual subs, I don't think he ever explained why before. So this was useful for me.
Have more subwoofer questions btw, beware ! :P
Yes but I am still waiting for the right answer. LOL! How do you do this for 50 years and not know how to set up 2 subwoofers and take advantage of the true benefits of having two subs. There is no left and right when 100hz is 11' long especially if your room is only 16 feet wide like so many. Serious people who know about sound wrote about this decades ago and there is no mystery on what to do, only measuring and delaying. So yes repetitive and wrong. Maybe on the 4th try we will actually look at this simple issue with some free software and a $60 microphone. No excuse for passing on misinformation like this.
Oh and I forgot 2 channel people still play records which are mixed to mono in the bass anyway. :(....c'mon 30 years of the internet and we seem to know less and less!!!!
@@JurMalafi Maybe you can provide the "right" answer then. You seem to know it, but prefer to rant and bash instead. Your comment is hence not all that useful (I know, it's yt comments so story of our lives but..) . The main point should be to help other people out, i think. Peace !? :)
@@entity279 Just Google, why do I need to explain it? I gave you 2 VERY good reasons stereo subwoofers is a ridiculous concept, particularly if you play records. If you are curious, there are many peer reviewed articles with pictures available for you to read and digest. Save yourself the time of reading in a forum, seldom is the right answer presented. Harman has multiple sub studies, Earl Geddes, Klein & Hummel.... that's how I learned about multiple subwoofers, I read the research. and then I spent $150 on software and a microphone to calibrate my system (every room is different). Best money I ever spent. This is not a place to teach room acoustics 101 and how low frequencies behave in small rooms. :) but the information is out there and should be easy to find.
@@JurMalafi Hmm but if the premise is that one already has two subs (due to the way the question was asked). Why not run them in stereo configuration then? Even if there's little benefit. There is some, sometimes at least.
Bass is omni-directional.
Take the sub money and buy new speakers. How old are those audionotes? You can buy speakers with a very small foot print
he emphasized the word "augment" like he was trying to piss me off because i always say don't use subwoofer as an augmentation. eh... not very interesting subject anyway.
Since subwoofer users are usually attempting to increase the level of bass notes, augmentation is exactly the word to describe their use.
@@Invictus96vid he emphasized the word... twice. and as far as i know i'm the only one around here that is against the use of subwoofer as an extension/augmentation and i said that out loud a lot of times... and everywhere too. i don't know if he was trying to piss me off or not but he clearly emphasized the word for some reason.
I am sorry but subs have no place in a stereo system, if you need them you are either a bass head or you have poorly designed speakers. They colour the sound and I have yet to see an implementation where they sound natural.
@@mornecoetzee735 because all the subs on the market are designed to be an extension, not an integral part of the system as they're supposed to be (passive subs are exceptions, kind of). subwoofer is not about the amount of bass, it's about work assignment, assigning each driver to the work they're best at. and for a subwoofer, is handling all the heavy excursion, letting the rest have the headroom they're supposed to have and minimizing intermodulation on the woofers. it's about working smart instead of working hard. if you want the sub to work well, the entire system has to be designed with the sub in mind in the first place. the entire system needs to be actively crossed over (and properly) or you end up with the passive crossover or band overlap messing up the sound all over again. all the speakers also need to be the same type too. you see, there's a stack of requirements to be met. with the virtually infinite choice of equipment out there, if you don't know exactly what you're doing and just keep mixing things together, you'll never get it right.
@@ped-away-g1396 I get it.
I might disagree on stereo subwoofers. Subwoofers are omidirectional. Placing 2 in a room might cancel each other out.1 is enough mate. Just buy a big one.