Gore Vidal - That's why I'm an atheist not an agnostic
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2012
- Interesting debate re belief hosted by Melvyn Bragg with Gore Vidal, The Reverend Keith Ward and Susan Greenfield (LWT one late Sunday evening c1999). Susan Greenfield uses a nice put down phrase "I can't buy into that new physics". Gore Vidal is also in outrageously pompous form and batting for atheism with a twinkle in his eye.
Upon seeing this again I realised three things from it had stuck in my mind.
1 The phrase "That's why I'm an atheist not an agnostic... I'm against this". I try not to ram my opinions down other peoples throats, you know live and let live and all that, but occasionally when provoked I've found myself using this expression.
2 Gore Vidal refers to a point, which I think he had argued earlier (before I started taping) that the reason that atheism historically had so few artistic heavyweights , was due to religious oppression. He then makes an interesting point that with the atheist view of the universe being so much more "poetic", its sad that it's supporters have never really engaged the consciousness of the masses. (Joni Mitchell's - Woodstock "We are stardust" is out there but I wish there were a lot more such works)
3 The "Why burst other peoples bubble argument". This is the point I have the biggest difficulty with as an atheist. The vast majority of "religious" people are happy and pretty much harmless so what's the point of causing them grief. In this case an audience member who is a grief counselor talks, you respect her, I would not want to argue with her however the atheist panelists give a nice example of how to show her the dignity she deserves.
Formerly on thingsihaveseen & thingsihaveseen2
If Christians truly believed in the afterlife, they would dance at funerals.
exactly...even when i was a kid i asked that...another perfect example of how people only use their faith when its useful...just shows how useful such beliefs really are
their response of that is that there is a time for everything... a time to mourn, a time to laugh, a time to be angry, etc
FutileExistence
Yes, and of course, they are just sad they have lost someone. Isn't this selffish? Not, that I would feel the same if I lost someone I really cared about. But the difference is, I don't believe in God and an afterlive. If you do, you should be happy for the person how know has infinite happiness... and you'll meet them again anyways, right? So the little amout of time without them won't matter, right?
neuroscience2012
Of course but... how often to you encounter a believer that admits their beliefs do sound a little silly?
Roedy Green Some do dance and some grieve because they will miss him/her. Why are u such a fool?
If you need the threat of heaven or hell to be good, you are not good.
+Frank Soos, agreed! It's like saying, "I didn't cheat on my wife because I was afraid I would get caught." That doesn't make you good, loving or noble. All it means is that you're trying to avoid pain. It's only in the absence of the threat of punishment that you can choose love. I don't know if you're married, but let's imagine you are for a second and your wife comes to you and says, "Honey, if you want to have an affair, I won't stop you. I won't threaten you, I won't get mad at you, I won't tell anyone. I will, however, be devastated." That's a scenario where love can be demonstrated, because with no threat stopping you, it's only your response to your wife dictating your actions. In choosing to value your wife, to consider her heart, and to protect your connection with her, that's love. That's why the Bible says in 1 John 4:18, "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." Fear in relationships impedes your ability to love. So love is always seeks to remove whatever would cause fear. That means no manipulation, no threats, no attempts to control. It's a totally different way of relating to people than what you see in the world 99% of the time.
If you need to believe that this is what motivates those of faith, then you're not only not very intelligent, you're very shallow.
As usual, these ignorant religious hypocrites twist the truth and cast all their own faults onto everybody else. Religious people are the ones who are shallow and not very intelligent.
Why do people need to believe in absurd nonsense like talking animals to have morality ? Why can't people be good simply for goodness sake ?
You are not very intelligent and very shallow if you can't understand empathy and placing yourself in other people's shoes. I don't steal or kill because I would not like it if somebody did it to me. We atheists also believe what Jesus taught : " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. " It's just that we don't need to believe all the extra supernatural nonsense baggage that goes along with religion.
Frank Soos good point
+Dan Mitchell and you'll go to hell as a non Christian
"She's not being a good Christian, She's being a good Human Being..."
RIP Gore you lovely smart man!
+Nat M
His great books are still with us. The man lives.
The crone may live but she is not with us.
I mean that in the gentlest way.
Namaste and care,
mhikl
Your definition of crone surprised me as I was only familiar with " A woman who is venerated for experience, judgment, and wisdom" I think this is how Mhi kl meant it. www.thefreedictionary.com/crone
ur RIP word proves ur atheism and shows ur idol Gore is in hell
Evolution Isfairytale - what happens to the people that never learn about Christianity or any sort of god before they die? Do they go to hell too for being atheists?
@@bobtheatheist63 No. And it is not something Christianity ever contended. But exhibiting infantile self-worship, which is the definition of evil, by referring to God as god doesn't enhance one's chances of ever becoming a decent human being.
Just because something is comforting does not make it true!
Such as the comforting ideal that one will not be held accountable for their actions.
rob poynter "If only I wasn't an atheist, I could get away with anything. You'd just ask for forgiveness and then you'd be forgiven. It sounds much better than having to live with guilt."
So yeah, you continue believing in supernatural accountability while the adults take *personal* responsibility -- you know for actions of secularly-arrived at positions; like not stoning sabbath breakers to death? We will keep doing good for the sake of good -- not for a selfish yearning for heavenly reward or avoidance of punishment - but because it is the right thing.
We will keep employing rationality in discussing moral philosophy, ethics, neuroscience and law..... while you go... beseech virtual pardons for trivial transgressions... from a deity unconcerned with the ~26,000 children dying from agonising, miserable, malnutrition-attributed deaths per day... a deity like that would certainly care about *your* problems.
P.S. Where can you find *any* sense of accountability in Abrahamic religions like Christianity? The mystical realm of heaven would be breaming with child molesters, rapists, thieves, pedophiles, etc. who merely had to repent before their executions on death row.
Read the Sermon the Mount and you'll find secular positions are still backward.
rob poynter There are many precepts in Christianity that I find beautiful and commendable -- sermon on the mount expounding many of these. There are also many precepts in Christianity that I find disgusting and evil. Nothing special about Christianity though -- we can take lessons from all sorts of religions and myths and works of fiction.. even from works of modern literature.
Secular positions can and do freely take inspiration from these without the need to include the nastiness or delusions.
The 20th Century contains many striking examples of just how horrific secular philosophy can be.
I love the way the thinking men patiently waited out the bleating of the beleiver and then calmly resumed their conversation.
mental patients lack patience and discipline, that's why they're always cutting you off.
+Valkyrie Sardo well said!
it's spelled "believer"...
+Drew Fuller that wasn't much of an argument, if I might say so...
Yes.You really see a difference between the believers and the thinking men.The believers are like a broken record stuck on a continuous loop.
Life after death is as likely as sex after marriage.
Nonexistant?
+LawoftheLandPA you mean... it only exist, if the one providing this is real? o.O
Madeline Khan: The movie "Clue".
+LawoftheLandPA - Life after death is the same as life before birth.
Bacteria, maggots, ect ect
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
His quote isn't about how life began, but about the fact that the atoms in your body came from stars that had to die in order for these atoms to become part of your body. We know this because we know how elements are created in the Universe and we know the Universe began only with hydrogen and helium. Life requires heavier elements and those are created in the furnaces of stars. Elements heavier than iron are generated through supernova explosions.
None of the above is speculation, it is all a result of observations by astronomers of the natural world and by the work of other scientists. We have even been able to synthesize heavier elements beyond those that occur naturally.
Abiogenesis (the original evolution of life or living organisms from inorganic or inanimate substances) is not the same thing as how elements are formed. The fact is that these elements are formed in stars because we observe that happening. Another fact is that we are composed of elements. Therefore the elements that compose your body were created in stars that eventually died since those elements are not in there now.
If you want to believe some invisible magician then took these elements and created life, fine. That does not change the truth of Lawrence Krauss' statement.
What I don't get about your belief system is that if we were able to create blood (many researchers are working on it and there is one blood replacement that is approved for use in South Africa) then suddenly that would prove no deity was involved? Or if we were to be able to create life from "elements mixed with chemicals" then you would no longer believe in Creationism? The answer is no, you would just move the goal posts to something else. This is the god-of-the-gaps belief system.We have a very long history of being able to synthesize replacements for things found in nature.
Neil deGrasse Tyson addresses this perfectly:
Does it mean, if you don’t understand something, and the community of physicists don’t understand it, that means God did it? Is that how you want to play this game? Because if it is, here’s a list of things in the past that the physicists at the time didn’t understand [and now we do understand] [...]. If that’s how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on - so just be ready for that to happen, if that’s how you want to come at the problem.
You totally did not understand the quote from Neil deGrasse Tyson or you are deliberately twisting it. Where does he say or even imply that we are getting close to knowing everything, or if that is even possible?
People used to believe lightning was caused by Zeus throwing lightning bolts because they did not understand the natural causes behind lightning. People used to believe epilepsy was caused by demonic possession because they did not understand the natural causes behind epilepsy. People used to be believe disease was caused by demons and would drill holes in people's heads to have the demons escape because there was no germ theory yet.
All of these are examples of things in the domain of the supernatural that are no longer (at least in Western societies by vast majorities of people) believed as such.
If you want to define your God as stuff we don't just understand or can't do (such as create life from non-life) then like Mr. Tyson says, your God is an ever receding pocked of scientific ignorance.
Ha ha ha - wow you are delusional. You really think we understand less about the natural world than in the past? Yes, this conversation is over. I do admit your responses have been far more interesting than the typical Creationist.
"It excludes all of philosophy. It excludes Plato. It excludes the mystery cults of Greece. It excludes the Roman idea of what is a good man. There goes Marcus Aurelius. There goes Epictetus. There goes the Stoics. These are all better thinkers than anything that the Christian Church has come up with in two thousand years. That's why I'm an atheist and not an agnostic."
A great riff by a great guy. :)
The most astonishing things ever writen over the subject comes from Melissoss of Samos ( in Simplicius lectures ) . It's 2 500 years old & incredibly deep ...
VITA kyo ya sure.
Let's not mention the philosophical and theological thinkers such as Apostle Paul, Origen, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Schleiermacher, Barth, Spurgeon, etc. Then there are the scientists, Kepler, Galileo, Bacon, Newton, Lister, Kelvin, Faraday, Babbage, Pasteur, and many, many more Christians who founded almost every branch of science.
That’s not a reason to be atheist... all of those people were religious.
Unfortunately the MYSTERY cults worshipped gods, as did those philosophers, and just if I stand correct these people are the same people you atheist put down when ever someone references their beleifs, such as flat earth, atoms and molecules,and almlst anything that doesnt have to do with christianity directly
I really don't care if you believe or not, why would anybody ever assume that "I didn't believe in god, but then god revealed himself to me and I came to the knowledge that god exists" is going to add absolutely anything at all to the conversation other then maybe a few people thinking that there's a delusional man in the audience?
+Kronic Shade Uhm, the insane votes. Do you care now?
Critic (al) Why would the insane voting change my bewilderment with the fact that people, being believers or not, think that their own personal experience should be sufficient evidence for other people?
Kronic Shade Because it affects your life.
The believers are insane and out of contact with reality. They are sick people that need help, not a ballot.
This is people who are delusional, and you want them to govern you? Wow.
Critic (al) You seamed to be confused. The statement "I don't care whether you believe or not" was not a general statement meant to be read taken independently. Notice the comma after it? When it comes to reading, context is very important.
Kronic Shade Right. No, just no.
my god Gore Vidal's final statement was beautiful to the core, "she's not being a good christian, she's being a good human being."
''she is not being a good christian Mr Ward, she is being a good human being'' amazing
What is a good human being according to you
@@weirdflex8158 You miss the point.
The point is to give credit to a person for doing a good thing, rather than to give credit to an ideology for a believer doing a good thing.
Someone comforting an injured child is being a good human, rather than being a good christian.
Good actions are not exclusively 'christian'
@@nicelittlerunner that makes no sense because you can't answer my question of what good is tell me what it is?
@@weirdflex8158 Do you not understand the basic principle I just told you that 'good' is a subjective term? hence my use of the example where helping a child could be said to be a good thing.
According to Hitler, exterminating the jews was 'good'.
This is NOT the point i'm making, and you seem to be intentionally slow on the uptake to win a 'gotcha' on an irrelevant side issue.
The point is that a person doing something seeming to be 'good, isn't a good follower of a religious rule, but often a good person.
A 'good' Muslim will kill an apostate.
A 'good' christian may kill a homosexual.
Stop doing weird flexing, nobody is impressed with your flex, it's weird.
God is a blackmailer - :D
@HOWARD BOYD god is a evil blackmailer.
Gore is a monument of eloquence! His command of both his audience and his language is something to behold...
You are so gullible! You should move to North Korea.
Agreed he uses a lot of big words words that have to be hard to spell much less pronounce
Boy does he use a lot of big words
2:09 I wonder why god revealed himself to this guy but not the other billions that are on the planet.
Well, this question is as old as the first shamans and has never been answered.
@HOWARD BOYD Lord Voldemort said: There is no good and evil, there is only power and those too weak to seek it.
Now both of us quoted fictional characters, I just don´t understand what would be accomplished by that.
@HOWARD BOYD thanks for the tip, but there is no such thing as a father in heaven and there also is no such thing as sin. Both were made up to keep the idiots under control
Why should anyone take this guy's word for it and especially when he claims everybody else having a revelation not in unison with his dogma is delusional or lying, as they would state about his?
Or could it be only in his head?
That´s why atheists actually do have the moral highground. We do not act based on fear of punishment of hope for reward. We do good deeds because it´s good, we behave right because it´s right.
If you need to believe that fear is what motivates those of faith, then you're not only not very intelligent, you're very shallow. And what kind of "moral high ground" is exercised in the metaphysical materialist utilitarian ethic that leads atheists to dismiss the innate worth of the human individual.
Ed Baker
If you think atheists are materialistic utilitarians you are not only a stupid moron but as well shallow as a spoon. There are so many great support organizations founded and run by atheists, why should we do that if we were utilitarian? Why should we do that if we would dismiss the innate worth of the human individual? There is no use in helping the poor, we do not gain anything by acting so. But most importantly, no atheist doing good deeds hopes to get rewarded for that deeds by some spirit in the clouds like you do.
So yes, all your actions are based on fear of punishment or hope for reward for so-called good behaviour, which of course differs from delusion to delusion.
No atheist ever said he would go on a raping and killing spree if there were no god. We know perfectly well that there is no god and still you can hardly find atheists in prisons, which are btw overcrowded by believers of all sorts. We behvae right because it is right, we do good because it is good.
We are not only smarter we are simply better than you.
You act based on some fuzzy concept of good and evil and some self righteous worship of your own intellect being able to decide what is good and evil.
Yeah, really a high ground let me tell you.
Drigger95
what tells you what is good and evil if not your intellect and the morals you got from the society you were raised in?
Do you really want to tell me you get your morals from an invisible, silent and inactive deity?
So why don´t your stone children to death when they are disrespectful?
That would be the moral correct thing to do for someone thinking that god is right.
I can go on, but one example is enough to prove my point. You don´t do it, because it would be evil to do it. But who told you so? the bible didn´t, the bible is the book asking you to do so.
So if you trust your insticts more than the bible, why do you think you need the bible at all?
You get your morals from exactly the same source I get them from. From the society you live in, and you use this morals to pick and choose which rules to follow and which to disregard, when you are reading the bible. But if YOU choose which rules to follow, you could just as well put the bible away and just live by the societal rules without it.
But that´s not the point, the point is, you godmonging deluded morons are so proud to be good because you willbe rewarded and not to do evil because you want to avoid punishment. So tell me, who is the better man, the one doing good because it is good, or the one who does good because he hopes for reward.
We atheist DO have the moral highground.
@Ed Baker: Your comment is silly. It's not that atheists believe fear is what motivates good behavior among religious people...it's that religious people tell us that very thing when they ask "Where do you get your moral compass, if you don't have a fear in god?" and I would say I get asked that question at least 3 out of 5 times that I tell someone I'm an atheist.
It's a lot like when religious people complain that atheists call them stupid...but then the religious people say things like "Evolution isn't science" or "Evolution is just a theory" or "Why don't we ever see a crocaduck?" or "A tornado in a junkyard..." well, you get the picture: when people representing your religion say really stupid things, it's hard not to associate them with stupid. Note that I'm not saying (nor do I believe) that all religious people are stupid...some of them accept science and thus, obviously aren't.
There is absolutely no God, I have had a terrible skin disease for 12 years and no amount of prayer would take it away. I'm technically handicapped, but at least I'm smart enough to know that God is a fairy tale. What a burden taken from my shoulders.
imaginativelads So there can't be a God if you have a skin problem?
There can't be an omnibenevolent God who intervenes in reality, we know for a fact that such a being does not exist. There could still be something that qualifies as a deity, but if there is, it either doesn't give a shit about us, or cannot manifest in reality. In either case, it's a waste of everyone's time to even think about it until some actual evidence shows up.
Ssme
i put a small piece of paper under a glass on my coffee table. I have asked people to pray to their God and ask their God to move that piece of paper just a little bit. So far, no God has been able to move this little piece of paper.
Nosfrat Tirek You were told that inside your head is a brain..but how do you know you have a brain if you've never seen it?
God revealed himself??? If he tried that in the local park he'd be arrested for flashing!
+Warriorking1963 Yeah, and fuckin' Mickey Mouse revealed himself to me, now I love Disney! Lolololol
It's easy to joke about god now.
But come the afterlife you WILL BURN.
Matthew 12:36
"I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak."
Fuck you and your religious blackmail. I say the spaghetti monster will entwine you for eternity in his noodle coils MUHAHAHAH
Texan Tim Prove the Spaghetti Monster isn't real.... Then use the same logic on any god.
Texan Tim You proved nothing. You used derogatory terms and claimed the name was first used recently. That does not prove that FSM does not exist.
But since that is the way you "prove" things, Yahweh was first mentioned by ignorant Bronze Age people who thought slaughtering entire cities was a good way to please Him (or at least to write as if their predecessors were such genocidal maniacs.), who thought it was fine to own people and rape them. Please challenge me for the verses. :-) So I have "proved" as well as you.
My doubt persists: Why does "god" always choose idiots to reveal himself?
Because the clever ones have the sinful propensity to reason.
Because the clever ones do not believe it exists.
If god is all knowing why would he choose faith over reason to reveal himself. Does not sound like a wise choice.
What do you do in an afterlife? Do you sit on a cloud and listen to harp music for eternity. That sounds like hell to me. Do you worship the almighty for eternity. That sounds like North Korea.
Go read 1Corinthians 6:2 & Revelation 5:10, because if you make it to heaven you will become a judge with Jesus, and you will rule as King's over the earth, just read the bible.🤔
@@gargould7186 if you believe in Noah’s ark, and all the animals on it they were there before the dinosaurs then that doesn’t make sense because they evolved from them and if they were there with the dinosaurs they would have been eaten and go extinct
@@i.w.t.d5600 The dinosaurs didn't evolve, because God created them long before he created mankind, God created Adam in 4026 B.C. Jesus Christ was Michael the archangel ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 and was God's first creation (Colossians 1:15. And together they created all other things. Jesus was also God's wisdom as it says in 1Corinthians 1:24 & 30. So if you go to the book of Proverbs in chapter 8:1 it reads to you about wisdom, which is actually talking about God's first creation Jesus, because when you get to verse #22 it States that God himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. And if you keep in the book of Proverbs and go to chapter 20 and verse 12 it says that God created the seeing eye 👁️ , and the hearing ear. So if you look around at all of the animals, the thousands of them they all have ears and eyes 👀. Now isn't that a coincidence, let alone the very complex brain 🧠 that each and every creation has. Plus the ability to reproduce the same way as the others do. 🧐 🤔. As far as Noah's existing I believe what Jesus said in the book of Matthew 24:37 - He stated- For just as the days of NOAH were so the presence of the Son of man (Jesus) will be. So if Jesus Christ God's first creation and master worker believes that NOAH existed that is good enough for me !!! 🧐🤣
If you go to Heaven you become a judge and a king and rule over the Earth 🌎 with Jesus, (Revelation 5:10 & 1Corinthians 6:2. Because the bible States that there is going to be a New Earth 🌎 and also a New heaven, Revelation 21:1 & Isaiah 65:17, & 66:22, also 2Peter 3:13. The righteous ones will possess the earth and they will dwell upon it forever Psalms 37:29
@@gargould7186 god didn’t write the Bible, someone else did, and they could very easily made it up
One of the best things ever said about religion is from physicist Steven Weinberg:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it good people would do good things and evil people would do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that take religion.
wrong! if no god at beginning of earth only Satan and all evil would exist.
"Evolution Isfairytale" speaks for itself. You do make a lot of claims here that you have NO evidence for! :-) Did you have an accident and woke up having these wired thoughts? Try to get help to wake up from your nightmare!
You make no sense whatsoever and you know it plenty of criminals murders addicts etc have been saved by Jesus Christ and now life good life's even though I know you can't even proivde a definition for what good is cause you have none
How do we know the difference between good and evil.
Personally I think evil is good and good is evil
But then again I flip flop core beliefs every other third Wednesday
gore vidal pompous? I do not hear him threatening anyone with a ever lasting torture for just not believing. Pompous is making a statement and not being brave or honest enough to respond. And saying you had an experience with a god is not evidence. if that is evidence then there are thousands of gods.
QUESTION: "Why is it that those who are religious, feel that they are the ones with a stranglehold on morals"?
I argue that Deists, Atheists and those who believe science can, in no uncertain terms, explain morals. I'll even go as far as saying that EVOLUTION itself, can very much explain morals.
When we think of things that are "MORAL", it is ALWAYS concerned with the welfare and survival of "Community", whatever that “Community” may be. (eg. *Country you live in, Town you live in, Family you were born in, Pets you have, Friends you have, etc*.....)
If an individual does something to harm those bonds, (of *Community*), whether physically or emotionally, whether it be to themselves, their pets or those who they are companions with, *THAT* is what is considered to be “IMMORAL”.
*Anything which is damaging to the healthy continuation, betterment or advancement of community, is what we, as human beings, determine as Immoral*.
You can call the energy/feelings that guide that purpose whatever makes you happy, whether it be God, Allah, Zeus, etc,.. For Atheists, Deists, or anyone who realizes and considers ALL religions equally as damaging, WE have demonstrated that people indeed can live, "Moral" lives,.. for no other reason than it's because it *IS* the right way to live.
PEACE FROM CANADA EVERYONE ツ
What rubbish. The closest thing you've got to a secular system of morals outside religion is Kant, and his premises aren't going to survive the modern secular worldview. Also, Kant's system ultimately contradicts itself.
Gore is deliciously funny, smart and eloquent- LOVE him❤️
+Davit Oass No, you know more than he does. You are a jejune, poorly educated low IQ loser who don't like smart fellers, that's my guess.
Faith has nothing to do with truth. People may find comfort in a belief but,again, that's got nothing to do with truth.
"She's not being a good Christian but a good human being". That was epic!
What is a good human being according to you
Gore Vidal is a Bad Ass!!!
Wow!
I had no idea he was this good.
msginca agreed!
msginca What a load of crap! God is one thing and Religion is something else. Placing the two as related from the start is the biggest mistake ever!
+AgentQQ8 Well put :)
+msginca On Netflix watch Gore Vidal United States of Amnesia. :)
+Smart Halayla God and religion are two different things for sure. Religion is humans tricking humans and God is Humans fooling themselves. Religions can be disproven and God does not exist (until proof otherwise =P).
Gore is absolutely the best.
It's possible to have a deep and abiding respect for people's _right_ to believe as they wish, but at the same time, be completely upfront about it being rubbish. I'm quite glad that scientology makes Tom Cruise happy even though it is utter horseshit. Same with christianity and christians.
I don't understand how Scientology can get going in the modern age. The guy was a science fiction writer, a poor one (L Ron Hubbard). He even said, the only way to make big money is make a new religion.
What would you say to the fact that all 12 disciples went to the ends of the earth and died for Jesus after he rose again when they where normal people why would they do this if he had not fullfiled the promise of rising from the dead. Also 500 people reported seeing him after he rose again lots of people recorded witnessing his miracles there is more but this is the main reasons why I believe tell me why this is not solid evidence
@@weirdflex8158
You’re not funny.
You can keep your false consolation. I don't need that crutch, thank you.
It is time we got rid of this Bullshit!
Have theists ever used good arguments?
+uriituw They actually have crafted very god arguments, given their circumstances. Men like Thomas Aquinus were extremelly intelligent, they crafted arguments, which are still relevant today. The problem is, that their position was just weaker. If an ordinary person like me can see, that their arguments were wrong, suggests that what they believed in must most likelly be wrong.
+uriituw No.
+uriituw never, but they use plenty of bullshit ones!
+uriituw Yes they have used good arguments and if you don't believe that, you're going to burn in hell for all of eternity... because God loves you.
+uriituw Nope. Still waiting...
Why is it one never hears the true believer eulogize, "My dear Papa, we all loved him so very much. What a shame that he is writhing forever in fiery torment."
After listneing to Gore Vidal I think we need to harvest his DNA and start the human race over again.
And Bertrand Russell, Howard Zinn, and Carl Sagan... my personal four favorite dead guys. Witty, intelligent, logical... empathetic. Curious. Truly special men.
Business of consolation, rightly said. I'd like to quote Sagan here "Embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable"
Isn't it wonderful that we live in a free Society to have these debates. Just great!
Plato It's almost as wonderful as it is frightening that so many millions who live in our free society want to relinquish this freedom for the sake of their religion.
Where was this guy when Hitchens was razing whole cities of theistic arguments? When I found Richard Dawkins, I found Hitchens, whom lead me to Harris, but where was this guy? He's fantastically intelligent and doesn't have Hitchen's needlessly cruel tone of voice. What an awesome genius.
Gore Vidal dates back to the Kennedy administration and earlier as an author. You should try his books--he even wrote some mysteries as Edward (or Edwin, maybe) Box.
Back in the '60s, he was the voice of liberalism and often paired with William F. Buckley, who was the representative of conservatism. I don't know if it's on youtube--or available anywhere--but there was a memorable moment on live tv back then when Vidal more or less called Buckley a Nazi and Buckley threatened to punch Vidal's teeth down his throat.
qhsperson
Definitely going to look up more Vidal.
Indeed, read some of Gore's novels (Messiah, Julian, The Judgment of Paris and the series on America that begins with Burr.) It must also be said that Vidal was the essayist without peer of his generation, as Hitch was of his own.
Oh, don't forget Creation, probably his masterwork.
Gore Vial was an institution and yes also an awesome genius. I was surprised too that there have been many distinguished atheists telling society what they think long before Dawkins. Carl Sagan and Bertrand Russell were other genii who were not afraid to stand up to the all powerful religions.
***** Is the movie available through streaming only?Last time I looked it was in the save section as far as dvd is concerned.
Atheism is the only logical reason to explain what religion cannot. The negative appellation of atheism was and is perpetuated by religion. Religion will never prove that any gods exist. Atheism has no need to.
Atheism would have to prove that no god exists at all. See, atheists many times confuse their actual position. Atheism's position is "there is no god"--which is an affirmative statement that requires evidence. You would have to prove an impossibility for any god to exist--or have existed--ever. The position you're actually describing is "skeptic".
I wonder why particularly christians seem to think it is so important that people feel comforted, be comforted. What is the point of it? When a loved one dies, we feel sadness, we grieve, and we know how important it is to grieve, so believing that our loved ones are with jesus, or god knows who else, doesn't make us miss them less. I think a person like that grievance counsellor in the audience, is totally superfluous, and thinking that she makes money of people who are grieving, makes me think that she's a fraud, and a no good for nothing individual.
How funny, The Slave to JEBUS guy about a third way in, he really expected a huge applause when he preached his "JEBUS saved me, praise the Lord shit" to the silence of a tumbleweed rolling on by. That's why I love England, cuz u no in America they'd be clapping screaming shit like, 'rite on brutha' praise the lorrrrrrd yeeee ha
In 2018 the USA is ever plunging into Theocracy and Trump is not the Lunar in Chief because I believe President Trump is an Agnostic too. Now the VP------- he steps in ?. The Middle Ages will commence with Pence !
There's so many reasons to be good, to do good things to others:
1) treat others as you would want to be treated; if you want to be treated well, than treat others well too, and it will be duplicated.
2) empathy, you literally do feel others' strife and want to help as that makes you also feel good that their strife is lightened if not relieved completely.
3) Lead and follow by example. If you do well others will do well to others too and life will be more pleasant; peaceful and get more from it, happiness, connection, and since we're social creature, taking delight in being with others, it increases our social caring for one another.
4) It simply makes life that is full of strife more bearable to help each other, whether in need or not in necessarily in super need, but just going beyond need, to help someone.
5) Helping each other gives us a sense of purpose, and benefits us in infinite many ways, constructive as you're able to accomplish their goals which helps accomplish your goals in life (minor or major goals).
Being good to each other has better consequences than being nasty to each other. Even when being good may not have direct benefits to yourself, even if it may even be a cost to you in that given moment, just the opportunity to do well to someone even if it costs you, makes you feel better.
And pent up goodwill is established with others you helped and others who may know you helped to then help you when your down and out.
To not just survive, but to enjoy life, we must be good to one another even if it is at a cost to ourselves. Otherwise life will be darker than it already can be.
Just be good to each other. You don't need fear of magical beings that will torment you to be good. That is rather a boogie man or childish nursery story bribe; be a good girl or boy or Santa will bring you a lump of coal.
Sounds very much like the evolution of civilized society to me.
I think death is an enormous motivator to a belief in God. Having nearly died myself, my view is that there is nothing there at all - except peace. The fact that a deep belief in the supernatural may provide consolation, does not make it true. Religion, it seems, is much like a drug in that a little usage, however well intended, can lead to addiction the consequences of which can be religious extremism and the elevation of ones belief above ones humanity.
Your comment is interesting, but I'm afraid it shows how shallow you are. People should not talk about things they know little or nothing about. That is what I find so irritating about blabbermouths, especially atheists. It got to the point that I felt I should address this issue in my novel. (For video info, see "Atheism revisited" I am the guy in the Egyptian temple).
Gore Vidal is the First Christipher Hitchens or maybe Hitchens became the next Gore Vidal either way,Vidal was an amazing advocate for non believers and a joy to listen to.
If there is a wise, all powerful and kind god, he or she wouldn't care if you believe or not. A deity who is loving and good wouldn't want to be worshiped by anyone. Only an insecure and narcissistic entity would want constant praise and supplication.
If there is an all-powerful, wise and benevolent creator, and if this entity wants to convey a message to all of humanity, such a being will not make use of written texts or words dictated to several individuals because such a method is an extremely stupid idea that no intelligent being would ever contemplate using such a method.
We pass down messages through written texts and dictations. That means we are not intelligent beings, then?
HEAVEN and HELL are states of mind here now, and NOT places ones goes to after death. We have one life to live, and this is it.
The grief counselor reminds me of a quote from George Bernard Shaw: "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."
Allah , Vishnu, Krishna, Skoll, Osiris, Zalmoxis, Yahweh, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Thor, Poseidon and all the other gods throughout history are fictional
So consolation trumps truth? That seems to be the underlying message of religion.
Faith = Wishful thinking it would seem. Who knew?
Blabbermouth! People who think they know better are the ultimate deluded fools (for more info, check my latest video "Atheism revisited".)
twombonu
Troll who thinks all the people disagreeing with him are trolls. Just another common case of delusion projecting delusion.
They didn't call it opium of the masses for nothing, I guess. And no, totalitarian communism is not better because it's godless.
@@azmodanpc LOL. It's not 'godless'.
I wish this were not so cut up. I'm glad for what is here, but I'd really like to see the whole discussion if it's available.
To me there is peace in knowing that someone is dead and they will no longer feel pain or suffering and have gone back to the Earth that gave them life; that whatever horrible things they went through in their life no longer matter because they now cease to exist. The idea that they still exist but I just can't see them or touch them, or have any communication with them just doesn't comfort me. When you know someone's dead you know you have to move on with your life and keep their memory alive inside; when you think you're going to see someone again when you die, does that really allow you to move on from the loss?
In addition, it's always troubled me that, when someone dies horribly, either through murder or some other random scenario, why on Earth would they want to go on living in spirit form with the knowledge of how they died? How could the spirit ever be at peace with that knowledge? When someone is just dead, you know that they really are at peace because they cease to exist, so any trauma of life or death no longer exists. It also allows the people left behind to move on from that trauma with that knowledge.
lol they just ignored the ranting zealot, then went on after he was done like nothing happened. i guess that's sort of all you can do with raving lunatics.
I personally don't have a problem with anyone having a belief in a god if they choose to. It's only when they decide that they want to pass laws that reflect their belief and impose it upon others who do not share that belief, where I find it needs to be stopped. This happens to be a HUGE problem at least in America. I really do feel that if a person WANTS to believe then that is their business, but I also have my beliefs and do not try to impose them on others. Religion should NEVER be brought into the public square EVER. Faith is something that should stay personal and no laws made to impose it on anyone. Also churches should pay taxes like the rest of society.
One problem with that is that as tax-payers, they get a political voice. Let them keep their tax money and keep them silent on politics.
Lol so if a coutry is 90 percent Christian your telling me the laws should not reflect that you realize atheism is a believe system to so your doing the exact same thing
So, you actually do have a problem with people believing in a god. Otherwise, it would not bother you if they behaved as if they actually believed in that god.
Wish you had been there in 1700’s to correct all those guys that added God to everything
@@weirdflex8158 Nope, atheism is withholding a belief claim that gods exist. It is the opposite of having a belief. So if america became 90% muslim would you mind conforming to sharia law?
people want to think we are not animals but that is exactly what we are
when i was a christian, my life was hell, as an atheist now i live a life as being in heaven. when i die it´s all over; that¨s why i want to make the best out of it, when i´m still able! enjoy life and love as good as you can... i´m not afraid of death;even the most religious people can commit suicide when their life is to hard for them, even with their knowledge that with taking your life you go to hell. no when you die, you die
, lights out, its all over. so make the best of your life as an example for everyone, so when you die they will miss you for who you were and try to live like you did, because your afterlife is only in the memories of the people that knew you,but if you do good your memory lives on. ( if you were bad also. but who want´s that?) live life with love:.
It's like telling a child if you're good all year round, Santa will bring you presents.. It's just a man made form of control
Only that analogy is but a very obscurant euphemism for a deeper, far more debilitating threat that is to expect eternal damnation if you digress from god’s ‘guidance’ (in a ‘holy’ book of rules; shouldn’t god have created a deterministic universe and instil the false assumption that humans have free will?). Apparently virtually nothing is worse than atheism in the eyes of god, save a contrary belief system. It appears god’s gutless insecurity over who believes what (if he really wanted to he would’ve compelled us to believe with absolutely incontrovertible evidence, but apparently not, so he can’t be infuriated unless he is incapable of revealing himself, and if so, he’s impotent) is best illustrated in his bias over belief compared to almost all other actions that might even violate religious morals (from a Christian’s perspective [or any monotheist] if one were born in Tibet in the 14th century, he is on a path of wanton self-destruction by sheer misfortune that he was born in a culture of ‘false faith’ but in contrast, serial rapist, who happens to be a devout, Roman Catholic need not concern himself with the ultimate fate should he donate some pre-arranged sum to the local church.
@@aidanhall6679 Have you reconsidered this screed in the last 2 years?
"A God I want no traffic with"...so true...
So false
Could you please upload the entire segment? Thank you!!,
Is there a full video for this show?
I've loved Gore Vidal for his brilliance for my entire life. I'll always miss him as he was one of the most clever minds of his or any generation.
facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151337230194110&set=a.10151459607629110.501849.809964109&type=1&permPage=1
facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151146600759110&set=a.463105389109.251851.809964109&type=3&theater
No taxes.
"She was not being a good Christian, she was being a good human being." With that sentence he pretty much nails it for me.
What is a good person according to you
That end send a shiver down my spine. Like it came straight out a movie
It's pointless to criticise their believes. Blind faith and Self-Delusion are the defining traits of our species. It's not just religious people I'm talking about, everyone does this. This is what it means to be human.
It's nice to think that god made a house call to that man. Do you think that god also makes bedside visits to explain why he's not answering prayers for help with not dying?...guess we'll never know.
@HOWARD BOYD And your point is?
Should we just do away with Doctors & Hospitals, just use prayer & trust that if god doesn't save you, well...tough, your time to go.
@HOWARD BOYD if prayer worked - you'd not need the medical profession, would you?
Everyone, would pray.
Because it would be proof that a higher power, that hears & reacts to requests, exists.
But it doesn't.
Praying is doing nothing and feeling that one has accomplished something.
I love the way how eloquent & articulate they both are..
My own journey began as a good little WASP, attending many of the functions at what must have been a somewhat severe church (Baptist?) around the corner from our house. One Sunday the guest preacher's sermon was about the sin of "dancing". That was the end of my church going days. For years I was agnostic till I realized that I was merely straddling the fence, hedging my bet. For decades I've been an atheist before it became all the rage. It really does not bring any comfort realizing you've figured out the truth. Mortality scares the shit out of me.
When Voltaire stated "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him", his intent was not to claim that God is fictional as we now believe to be correct. Actually, the statement was used as part of a larger argument refuting an atheistic essay. All that goes to show is that even the great Voltaire was incapable of recognizing the inescapable conclusion that Monotheism has served its purpose and must now be cast aside by the intelligentsia and wait for the rest to catch on.
RIP, You caustic old queen. X
+jaye see You got it all wrong - he was not an effeminate type.
@@siegfriedsassoon5071 'Pansexual' is the word he used. Yet no women have ever said they had sex with him.
Unless you know somebody?
The older I get (am in my 30s now) the less patients I have with people and their talk of the consolation value of or its pretensions for moral foundation. Empirically the evidence that faith underpins morality is actually more heavily weighted in favour of the opposite, whilst the notion of the afterlife just seems weak and childish.
where can I find this in its entirety?
did Mr Vidal say that Marcus Aurelius was around several thousand years before Christianity was around, did i misunderstand him?
.
I think that peoples' belief in God hinges on their hope for an afterlife, and that God is the means for them to achieve that afterlife. For without an afterlife, God is both unnecessary and meaningless.
+Walt F. that is only one reason there are other reasons why people think there is a god
Walt F. Believing in magic would be fun.
Walt F. Mone hinges on evidence.
Walt F. So nice analysis .I am Tired of Rift between Theists & Atheists. We as human being have achieved many things through SCIENCE & technology
But Irrationality & scepticism Rules the minds of THEISTS #
the type of afterlife is irrelevant, if it is an eternity, it is hell.
From what we have observed and from what we know we exist in a natural universe, not a magical one. RIP Mr Vidal
Was this part of the series melvyn did '2000
years, a history of christianity' ? Would like to see that again.👍
we all die, then we are dead.... ;the end; 'makes me feel happy'...
Ecclesiastes 9:5&6 you got it. 🤪 But then there is going to be a resserrection John 5:28 & Isiah 26:19. Just look it up 😱
I always thought Gore Vidal was a hairdresser. Apparently he's not.
Hehe Vidal Sassoon.
When I was about nine years old, my devout catholic mother told me 'in heaven the streets are paved with gold'. I was discriminating enough at that age to ask her 'how can the cars get any traction?'
And in the same vein, the truth only hurts those that have been told a desirable lie.
If God came before me and told me he was real, I would not have become a christian . I would have assumed that I was hallusinating and called the doctor.
It is a fact that people believe various things about the nature of God but it does not follow that what they believe is true in anyway. I wonder why it is that most people don't or can't understand the difference between a fact and a belief? A simple test: Which of the following statements is a fact and which a belief: "I don't know," or "I believe"?
6:26 when it comes to this woman’s argument, I would say that this actually only prevents people from accepting that their relatives are gone and devalues their relationships to a degree in this life. For example if you don’t believe that there is an afterlife and believe this is all you get, you do indeed have an incentive at the very least to make sure that your relationships with relatives and friends are good so you don’t regret anything when they pass. If you do believe however, a person could just say “well I didn’t resolve x with them but when I see them again in heaven then we’ll have the opportunity to make amends”. You will still treasure the memories you had with them but you won’t as much as someone who doesn’t believe in an afterlife who believes all they truly have left are memories.
It actually more serves to prevent yourself from truly accepting that they are gone and moving on with your life.
Certainly I wouldn’t be able to accept it if I did believe because I know for sure that I’ll see them again. What would be the point if I believe that I will indeed “see” them again? No lessons would be learned because I wouldn’t have any actual reason to do so.
I love the set design and especially the colors that stream through the stained glass windows.
" God spoke to me " !
he didn't mention me did he ? 😵
Did he mention those five bucks he still owes me?
"Seek" quoted Isaac Newton:
"I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were
inspired. I study the Bible daily. Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors."
Seek - Anyone who tried to be a professor of Atheism in those days soon found himself on the wrong end of a burning stake.
Newton lived before we learned about evolution, the Big Bang, and the Miller-Urey experiment that proved that the building blocks of life can assemble from inorganic molecules without any evidence of assistance from invisible, magic ghosts.
Newton can be excused for his ignorance;
you on the other hand ....
+neo theskepticarena You are so dope
+monty tout Damn who pissed in your cheerios bro, he made a thought provoking comment and thought he should be commended for it. If you not to busy posting irrelevant shit how about you calm yourself down and tell me what about atheism pisses you off
+neo theskepticarena Agreed.
Newton also ate Mercury and thought he could turn base metal into gold. A person can be inconceivably bright in one matter and ignorant in another. Nothing out of the ordinary. He was just wrong.
Blue Butterly, the theory of evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
You wouldn't just do good because evolutionary process has made doing good helps the species. If the majority of humans do good, human beings as an animal last longer. On the other hand if the majority behave badly, the species suffers, genocide, etc. that shortens human existence.
Gore Vidal is the guy who wrote Kalki right? i liked that book.
Was that Ken Ham's dad on the left?
they're forgetting that most protestants believe that simply accepting jesus as your lord & savior gets you to heaven. there is no incentive there to be a good person, and by that logic hitler is probably in heaven. that was one of the first quirks of religion that turned me off, along with the fact that all babies who died before they could learn of jesus would go to hell or purgatory (depending on your denomination) etc...
Why is Hitler being in Heaven more offensive than him just being dead?
Just because there's an afterbirth doesn't prove there's an afterlife!
+Jeff Rey at least we have afterbullshit
The only way to give our loved ones an afterlife is to think about them.
We don’t dance when our loved ones go away, we dance when they return.
what a smart man. we don't need religion to tell us how to act what is right or wrong. we don't need least of all religion to guide our morals the evil deeds of the church proves it is not moral d's!!!!!
You actually do atheism has no morality not that that proves atheism wrong necessarily though. how does that prove anything they where not doing what the bible says and you know it.
Your morality is based on a feeling what If a person like a sociopath does not have that feeling?
What is right and wrong and based on what objective measure?
wtf? If you deem this such an interesting debate as you declare in the info, why did you edit out the statement at 3:44 which causes Gore to utter the phrase you chose for the title? Now I must go find the whole debate just to hear the parts you omitted. Even if you made this a brief summary, in all good taste, you should include what inspires the words in the title. We are all left wondering what is the cited reason why he is an atheist not an agnostic.
I clearly heard the words in the title, Samon. Perhaps you were viewing full screen or at a higher def than your video card cares to manage? I'm on a virtual dinosaur, and I heard it. :-) Play it again, Sam ... LOL
Robert Hare no Robert, I heard them also. That is not what I said. The words that are missing are what caused Gore Vidal to say those words in the title. Those words were a direct response to a comment made by the other guy which were edited out. Gore said the words in the title as a response to a statement that is missing. We only have the response here, not the statement.
Before posting I listened again twice thinking maybe I missed the context, but the initial statement is not there. It is edited out. If you are still confused, to say "that's why I am an..." reflects back to an absent reason. He is referring to what the other guy said as being the reason why he is an atheist. The reason why is absent.
Thanks for offering possible fixes or causes to experiencing playback errors, but they do not apply to this scenario. You remind me of how much I don't miss the very hardware issues I too used to battle. The specific cause in this case is the edit, not anyone's hardware or bandwidth.
GV lived in Ravello Italy for decades in a magnificent villa perched on the Amalfi coast. He had his paradise on Earth.
"God as blackmailer" - perfect!
They wanted to discuss the afterlife with the Christian counsellor? What a waste of time! Gore Vidal had the best, most perceptive comment. There are atheists and the rest are agnostics and, of course, he's right.
'....religious people are happy and pretty much harmless...' ?!!? Really....? Oh, my. I don't think so......
The sight of the smug smarmy 'Reverend' is the only argument needed against Christianity.
*"If a person doesn't think there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we died that was it, there is nothing." --Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994*
"If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent Him..." a French philosopher once quipped. I was a teenager when I read it - a liberating thought and one which my fervent pentecostal parents loathed... in a holy, spiritual kind of way. It is obvious that man created God and what's worse created Him in his own image - a jealous, vengeful, homicidal deity addicted to blood sacrifice.
Notwithstanding, there is clearly something driving the universe but to call that something 'god' and attribute a shitload of moronic dogma to that something is primitive, superstitious and frankly psychotic. Not only that, but this God - Jahweh, Jehovah or whatever you call him - is Jewish: the bible is a Jewish book written for Jews by Jews.
So the question naturally arises 'what are we Aryan Europeans doing with a Yiddish god when we have a splendid pantheon of our own after whom even the days of our week are named?' If you must worship something at least worship a strong homegrown product not some cheap and nasty import.
Tell me than why all 12 disciples went to the ends of the earth for Jesus when he rose again and why 500 people said they saw him risen again what about all the accounts of people witnessing his miracles is that all "made up"
i'm hoping someone could set me straight whether i'm an atheist or agnostic: i don't claim there is any proof against any god(s), but i regard their existence as so unlikely that it's not even worth thinking about in daily life. for example, i regard the existence of the christian god as unlikey as the existence of the olympian gods zeus, hera, and poseiden. in fact i would even put the existence of santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy on the same level.
you do relize you can be an agnostic atheist right?
Hi, you know what-those are just words-nothing else...what matters is that you have your mind in the right place-and you obviously do, since you didnt let yourself be brainwashed...But check the Wikipedia for those definitions...And dont believe when some crazy Christian tells you that the the possibility of the existence of God is 50:50, its no!!! YOU HAVE TO check the RICHARD DAWKINS book: THE GOD DELUSION, its WONDERFUL and it will help you answer the exact questions that you are asking here. I just finished it and this book is for the people who would like to get it straight about the religion, atheism, agnosticism- definitions, lies, truths, technicalities, some history, philosophy etc. etc. etc. EVERYTHING you need to know and after reading it there is nothing you wont know about those things, from A-Z. And its not long at all. Its perfect book for people that just dropped religion or are confused about it...
An agnostic suspends judgement, you are doing the opposite of that lol :D
CoCoMoroney i'm also suspending judgement. i don't believe but then a again i don't claim there IS NO higher power, as some atheists assert. i just think there is so much evidence against a deity vs evidence for one that i don't give it much thought in daily life. i think a very similar feeling is how most educated people regard the existence of leprechauns, unicorns, and ogres.
I would not label you. You are simply an intelligent person, who rejects non-supported contradictory claims. I really enjoyed the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but I do not consider myself agnostic nor atheistic when it comes to believing in Gandalf. I suppose if my parents had taught me such things from the time I was a child, I would eventually have to recognize that it is just a fairy tale.
Xtians and other believers constantly demand that we "respect" their beliefs. There is no reason why anyone should respect a belief of any kind.
Agreed one hundred percent
Sweet copy/paste you got there. Any original thoughts on the matter?