Frankel is a great, but Dancing Brave for me was the best based on versatility on opposition faced. From last to first beating a great Arc field with a last furlong worthy of a 5f sprinter was so awesome that we still mention it today.
I have to agree. DB was not just the unluckiest Derby loser ever, but probably the most versatile racehorse since Nijinsky. The yardstick to go by is his comprehensive beating of Triptych in the Eclipse ,King George and Arc of 86. You only have to look at the horses this brilliant filly subsequently raced and won against to appreciate my argument.
@Jock Odd Sock Not as consistent? ''Sea The Stars'' only lost once in his career which was his first race as a two year old when he was boxed in at the final furlong, but still managed to finish a close fourth after that he never lost again winning prestigious races such as the 2000, Guineas, Epsom Derby, Eclipse Stakes, International stakes, Irish Champion Stakes, and of course the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in France
Some horses are relentless gallopers and can win by spectacular margins, others will idle when there is nothing to chase and need to be held until the time is right. Frankel was the former but I think the scope of Sea the Stars achievement surpasses anything Frankel did.
The "Of alll time" thing just makes this a stupid, unanswerable question. He is the greatest I have seen, but of course he can't really be compared to others from different countries, in different eras over varying distances. We should just consider ourselves fortunate to have witnessed this magnificent creature in all his glory.
I agree a lot with Steve Mellish that frankel is the most consistently brilliant horse I've ever seen imo he would have won an arc had the ground been right it's very hard to knock him really
@@underscore2824 There have been many greats I agree but to say Frankel isn't one is absurd. To say he hasn't beaten anything is also absurd and not just beat them slaughter them making G1 winners look very average I can't agree with anything you have written on here. I don't know why you are anti Frankel but he's the best I've seen and I doubt I'll see a better.
@@underscore2824 Well Frankel did leave Newmarket as his last race proved as it was at Ascot. I'm not a track record person but I remember Frankel when winning the Queen Anne doing a faster furlong than anything in the king stand. A race for G1 sprinters. Frankel last win may not have been as spellbinding as some of his other wins but the ground was desperate and he lost a few lenghts at the start. That day he beat a top G1 performer who loved soft ground in cirrus des aigles. If I where you I'd go and watch his juddmonte win where he was barely extended to beat St Nicholas Abbey multiple G1 winner and Farrh who won an eclipse. If you say you don't like protected horses then you can't like Winx who never left and AUS and barring the odd race beat very poor opposition in comparison to what are good horses do over here. If you can't admire a great like Frankel then dont say things that aren't true.
I think the key is Sec didn't CARE whether he had any competition. He simply ran incredibly fast. He was self-motivated - ran FAST regardless of competition or lack there-of. His owner (P Chenery) stated Secretariat set his own strategies; very intelligent horse! In his 73 Preakness, Sec SPRINTED past the entire pack (Sec went wide) at the first tight curve, passing all the other horses as if they were stationary traffic cones, and held the lead effortlessly: hand-ride, no whips. He's the KING!
I`m not sure Frankel won anything further than 8 furlongs until he was a 4 year old. Frankel was a truly great horse - one of the best, but the likes of Dancing Brave and Sea the Stars, for me, just pip Frankel for greatness, as they both went on and won top Group 1 races from 8 furlongs to 12 furlongs - that is special.
Obviously, this will always be the stick to beat Frankel with and it’s a fair argument to a certain extent. I think it’s a fairly reasonable discussion to point to Frankel’s exuberance in the early to mid part of the race as a 2-y-o and the first half of his 3-y-o season, this could possibly lead to him gassing in the later stages of a fast race...I point to his poor run in the St James. However, that race probably served as a blessing in disguise and I believe over enthusiasm from Queally was a big factor. From that point on I think the whole team of stable, rider, trainer and the horse himself had complete control. By the time Frankel came into his 4-y-o season, he was on a pedestal that transcended both racing and general public that hadn’t been seen or heard of since Shergar’s Derby win over thirty years previously. We had an amazing unbeaten Group One behemoth that literally destroyed all-comers and drew criticism if the winning distance didn’t exceed five lengths! This created a problem because financially, the horses worth at stud would already (far) outstrip anything he could earn on the turf. In fact, the only thing that could devalue this horse would be defeat. It’s to their credit that Sir Henry and The Prince kept him around for one more season, but they had such a sensational horse, I think they couldn’t resist. This (4-y-o) Frankel was the best racehorse ever seen...his Queen Anne was just sensational but his performances in the Juddmonte and the Champion Stakes put all the arguments to bed. Frankel beat proven World Class middle distance fighters in St. Nicholas Abbey (Breeders Cup Turf) and Cirrus Des Aigles (multi group 1 winner and stayer) by simply cruising at a high pace and kicking away when asked. He could easily have done the same in the King George and The Arc but why risk it when it wasn’t needed...He (more) than proved his status in those last two races.
@@jamescarpenter6585 This is a well thought out comment. It's nice to comeback to these old videos and remind ourselves what we saw. I'm an American, and I believe Frankel is the best I've seen. The middle half mile of his Guineas is one of the most absurd things I've seen in racing. He shouldn't have been able to win that race, much less by open lengths. His Sussex was electric, his Queen Anne undeniably brilliant. But the race for me was the Juddmonte. The way he cruised up to St Nicholas Abbey, a horse that had won at the international level for fun, and then just widened with every stride was incredible. I think they should have tried the Arc in his 4 year old year. By that time he was properly shutting off in his races, and may have shown us how good he really was given the opportunity, but it wasn't to be. And that's okay.
Frankel wouldn't have beaten brigadier gerard over a mile, wouldn't have beaten sea the stars over 10 furlongs ' wouldn't have beaten any one at 12 furlongs.
I think its important to seperate achievements and ability. Frankel may not have achieved as much in his career as some of the other greats in terms of versatility/wins abroad etc, but on raw ability, theres not a horse in history who has produced a better performance than his Queen anne at a mile or his Juddmonte win at 10f. I think it's very hard to argue against him being the best horse of all time over a mile to 10f. I'll be very happy if I ever get to see anything like him again.
Same here been watching since 1995 when pennykamp won 2000 guineas. My favourite winner would of been shamardal if they had let him take part instead of french derby.
@@rodneymckee8431 over mile or 7 furlongs frankel would murder him . But in return the same could be said that sea rage stars would murder Frankel over 12 furlongs to mile and a half. But you cannot say sea the stars had any kind of performance over a mile like frankel in the 2000 Guinness.
@@harpalchauhan428 over 7 I agree but the proofs there he could over 1m he wasn't as flashy as Frankel winning by a distance most times but Frankel never posted a quicker time over 1m than sea the stars guineas win. 2 great horses but have to side with sea the stars
A brilliant racehorse, but probably the most hyped racehorse of all time. They didn't have dedicated racing channels back in the day, so fortunately we didn't have to put up with 35 year olds telling us that this was the greatest horse of all time. I've got socks older than some of these people. Frankel beat some good horses, but he never beat a horse anywhere near the calibre of Mill Reef, the greatest miler of all time, Brigadier Gerard, left Mill Reef for dead.
Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars ... Frankel had only one gear (which was very fast) but Cecil never took him out of his comfort zone. Never raced over a mile and a half, never raced outside England.
@@rodneymckee8431 Thanks Rodney. When he won the Arc listening to Jim McGrath superb commentary was probably my favourite Irish horse racing moment, exceeding even Dawn Run's Gold Cup.
@@germaher3541 the arc and the Irish champion stakes was his 2 greatest performances and commentary from dessie sscahill we come to see a champion brilliant
Dancing Brave is surely the best thoroughbred to run on these shores. 2000 guineas winner, arguably the most unlucky Derby winner of all time (no blame attached to G Starkey there are trial races) and then won a star studded and arguably best ever Arc. Frankel over a mile and 10 furlongs was as all the great horses are a thrill to watch. See the Stars never captured the imagination in the way Frankel did but then Frankel was trained by the extraordinary H Cecil. Lammtarra shouldn't be involved in any discussion re the greatest horses of all time. Yes he won five top top races one in record time but who did he beat. Dancing Brave had the speed to win over a mile. The temperament to handle Epsom while clearly demonstrating the ability to win a Derby, and then versatility as stamina combined with speed as witnessed at Longchamp over what is generally regarded as middle distance sprint down the home straight, coming with a wet sail entering the final furlong to beat the best of three generations.
for me! NIJINSKY AND SEA THE STARS are ahead of him (Frankel) different countries,and distances,and the two top races in Europe,only an opinion from a racing fan, but there you have it,great horse one and all.
At the end of the day all the trainers know hes the greatest horse they've ever seen ..they're the experts ..I've been watching racing for 50 years.ive never seen a horse like Frankl ..just a total freak ..never off the bridle ..pure poetry in motion .If all these great horses met frankl would be odds on
Do you consider Frankel better than Secretariat? I don't know Frankel, he's obviously a phenomenal racehorse. I'm happy for him & am glad he'll retire safe & SOUND, healthy! To me, Frankel seems (granted, I know little about him) more like Seattle Slew, with the glamour of Man O War. To me, Secretariat remains untouchable, The Greatest (and I acknowledge this is my opinion). Secretariat was Stunning; Fans in the Belmont stands & watching him on TV cried - wept! - at his '73 Belmont.
This conversation only proves to me that 12f champs Dancing Brave and Mill Reef were greater horses than Frankel. The real question should be, who was the greatest British horse of all time: Dancing Brave or Secretariat's small cousin Mill Reef?
Frankel was an incredible stunning racehorse, his action reminded me of his ancestor,the greatest sire of the 20th century, Northern Dancer. But I have to confess, the incomparable Sea Bird 11 would have left him for dead, he was a freak, and was never extended.
Blood Horse (US Thoroughbred affiliation, publisher & arbiter) rated Secretariat # 2, after Man O War (#1). MANO won 20 of his 21 races; the US Trip Crown hadn't yet 'evolved' & MANO didn't run in the 1st race of the US Trip Crown. (MANO is almost a legend.) Perhaps you think of Frankel, like many other fans think of MANO or Sec. I'm sure Frankel is wonderful; he receives great tributes from everyone. I don't understand why you would insult Secretariat who is an Icon?
I'm an American. I am not as knowledgeable as seabird. But I know enough. 'Protar' points out Sec lost races - true. Yet no other horse has performed as Sec did. Sec was 3 (three). America's Blood Horse rates Man O War (#1) higher than Sec (#2). I'll accept that; they're the experts. However, I saw Secretariat's performances; they were astonishing, startling, unprecedented. Secretariat was extremely intelligent & a physical freak of nature. Belmont '73 - unparalleled. Sec was Beast & a Genius.
Frankel was a brilliant Guineas winner. He might've beaten anything that day, but all the greats have their day, and many of them several impressive big race wins against a lot better opposition than Frankel EVER faced.
Where's the evidence? He beat 21 grade 1 winners.... including hammering nathaniel numerous times who won 2 grade 1s.. demolished cirus des aigles with consulate ease... his opponents were top class horses of the time as were the times he set
The debate is not whether this is the greatest horse over 1m4f but whether he is the most dominant horse over his best trip and on his best day. That he appears to have been by a lb or two. If you want to vote for the most versatile horse or toughest horse so be it.
Excellent review. Dancing brave, nijinski, sea bird had more versatility and were more exciting to watch. They also beat better horses than Frankel and bullet train did. And therefore greater than frankel.
All this horses you mentioned are super horses but .... Between 7 and 10 furlongs they have no chance with Frankel..... At his pick Frankel would had smoke them.
More exciting? What's more exciting than watching a horse who's beaten 21 individual grade 1... and winning at ascot by about 10 lengths.. frankel is the best of all time
These so called group one races were never group one races in the past, they have been promoted to group 1 races in order to try and increase the appeal of the sport. Frankel leaving Brigadier Gerard for dead, I'd like to see that, because Brigadier Gerard would have to BE dead for that to happen. Show me the horse that Frankel beat who was even close to the ability of Mill Reef.
@@BertSmithLondon show me a horse that mill reef beat that was close to Frankel? But based on ratings Frankel is deservedly the greatest of all time... he beat everything he had in front of him with ease
interesting,prince khaled was (owner of both frankel and dancing brave)asked which of both these horses was better,he was silent for a while then said,frankel.
@@terrymacdonald914 Zoffany, rated 115 at his best, would have beaten Franke in a few more strides. Brigadier Gerard got beaten by a Derby winner, conceding him 11lbs over a distance 2 furlongs past his best, in a time that took 2 seconds of the course record.
I greatly admire Frankel, and he is the best horse we have seen in UK for many years. However, he was not in the same league as Secretariat. On his best performance over 1 1/4 miles, on ideal going, his time would have put him some 30 lengths behind Secretariat, in the Belmont (on the slower dirt surface) at this distance and Secretariat carried on a further 2 furlongs to break the world record over 1 1/2 miles. Secretariat's time over the Belmont 1 1/2 miles was over 2 seconds faster than any horse in the world has achieved over this distance, before or since (this was 1973). Secretariat was not on any medication.
Interesting to compare a dirt and grass surface. Is a grass surface faster? I Recall Dr Fager running a very fast time for a mile on a dirt surface 1.32 1/5. Presumably that made him the best in the world.
Comparing turf to dirt is an amateurish comparison. No doubt Secretariat on Belmont day was a machine but so was Frankel at Royal Ascot 2012. A 30 length beating of Frankel is about as stupid a comment as I have yet heard.
Frankel never ran in fields of 20 horses or more, never won in the US, never won in Japan, never won in Australia. He also raced where pace makers were used and due to the small fields he was fortunate enough to meet horses on equal terms. Wonderful galloper and definitely one of the best horses in recent memory. But to compare him to the likes of Man o War, Phar Lap, Carbine and others that carried ridiculously big weights in large fields is a massive stretch.
Champion stakes 1m2f HEAVY GROUND. Frankel comes out 5 lengths behind the field. 2f out frankel cruses up to the great Cirrus des Aigles on the bridle, then goes on to win easily by 2 lengths.
An argument for Frankel not getting the mile & half yes BUT I thought getting Frankel up to 10 furlongs was a feat in its self given he was a complete tearaway at 2 & 3yrs old. But I still have Dancing Brave as my GOAT! His Arc was exceptional & made a field of 18 G1's & 4 Derby winners look 2nd raters.
Was Dancing Braves Arc better than Peintre Celebre's?? I was equally impressed with both.. Dancing Braves for way he came with one swoop, and Peintre Celebre's for his double turn of foot.. Dancing beat better horses, but Pilsudski was a brilliant horse and he (Peintre Celebre) did smash the track record
NASHWAN WON - The 2000 Gns- THE DERBY- The ECLIPS and THE KING GEORGE. All as a 3 year OLD. Frankel, was the GREATEST MILER of All Time. He NEVER got OUT of His Comfort Zone- in terms of Distance and out of the English racecourse!
You are right about Sec, seabird. You seem objective & very knowledgeable. I & most of America (I was in my teens) watched Sec's Trip Crown on TV. He was astonishing, he become a National Treasure.
The thing that always nagged me was the the fact that they went for the SJP (where Frankel had nothing to prove) rather than the Derby. Frankel could have run 10 pounds below his best at Epsom and still won comfortably.
If you're going to talk about Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard and dancing brave. You have to talk about Sea the stars and even High Chaparral. High Chaparral is one of THE most underrated horses of all time. Look at the horses he beat in the Irish Champion stakes. (after coming back from a leg injury). He beat Falbrav, Alamsharl, Moon Ballad, Islington, Vintage Tipple. He was a Dual Derby winner AND a Dual Breeder's cup winner.
Frankel is the best ever over a mile - Brigadier Gerard the second best miler. Sea-Bird II is the best mile and a half horse. He beat the very best without ever coming out of a hack canter. He was a freak. Dancing Brave's greatest performance was the 86 Arc. Nijinsky's King George win was sensational.Ribot, Mill Reef and Vaguely Noble would have beaten most horse over 10-12f on soft ground.
Now doubt about it Frankel is the greatest horse in the past 5 & half centuries. Im a retired professional exercise rider jockey from Massachusetts. Suffolk Downs racetrack in East Boston. Over in the uk the racetracks are mostly all on the grass. People in the racing business have not seen a horse like Frankel centuries. The documentary of Frankel they mentioned the horse Sham who won so many big stakes but couldn't beat the Greatest horse Secretariat who ronny turcotte jockey in the Belmont stakes 1973 had to look back on the dirt surface who won by 31 lengths. The hall of fame jockey Laffit Pincay . Trainer Bob baffert in California has had some great horses who he retired for breeding. Arrogate won the Dubai cub . Exaggerater is retired . Still today Secretariat no horse has beaten his record in the Belmont stakes mile & half longest race of the 3 races of the triple crown. Secretariats last race was at woodbine Canada racetrack in Canada which ronny turcotte the jockey of secretariat got suspension who called his friend hall of fame eddy maple. On the last race of secretariat on a cold raw day on the grass eddy maple won by 15 lengths over a mile. We will never know if secretariat who till this day has not beaten his record time in his all his races.
A point I strongly agree with Steve Mellish on is never seeing a horse that's produced as many dynamic races back to back to back, etc..as Frankel has. For years to come now the "so-called" experts and lifelong racing fans alike will continue to debate if Frankel was the greatest of all time? Whether you think he is or isn't is irrelevant. What were the odd's of seeing 2 horses the caliber of Frankel and Sea The Stars in a span of just 4 seasons? Lucky to see 1 like either every 20 or 30 years.
Whether you think Frankel is the greatest ever, and personally I do, or not let’s just agree he was outstanding. My personal favourite is Oh So Sharp loved that horse
Dancing brave was the greatest ever, won at different distances took on the best horses going, frankel was a brilliant horse but didn’t take on the same class of horse that dancing brave took on, dancing brave was the greatest, absolute machine
@@deanblake4843 who was the the highest racehorse ever, dancing brave, yea didn’t win the derby but everybody knows it was jockey error, won the guineas, won the coral eclipse, won king George, won arc,, dancing brave was different class
Brigadier Gerard was over raced, if he had been wrapped in cotton wool like they do nowadays he would never have been beaten. There are lots of reasons for his defeat. Too many races, not his best distance, track record smashed, giving weight to a Derby winner, and on top of all that Joe Mercer said mucus poured from his nose after the race. Anyone who thinks Frankel would have beaten Brigadier Gerard over a mile, has only ever seen one of the horses run.
Lmao look at the juddmonte international first ever try at 1m 2f didn't even come off the bridle and there were many group 1 horses in that race .winx beat hartnell in nearly every race hartnell was not even a group 3 horse in England lmao u bunch of winx bumboys she beat 2 very good horses in her career the rest handicapper at best
@@russe19642 well he beat Nathaniel on debut who went on to win many group 1 races and then ended up beating Nathaniel again in his last race which also included other group 1 winners he also beat st nicholas abbey, farhh, excelebration , canford cliffs , helmet , imperial verse and many other group 1 winners so stfu you no nothing
(You hurled the 1st insult). Maybe Frankel is the CURRENT greatest? IDK? It's wonderful Frankel is as beloved as Secretariat is. Secretariat was versatile; he showed his intellect, speed & versatility most notably in the 1973 US Trip Crown, at age 3. In the approx. 5 week campaign, Sec won/set STANDING track records @1.25, 1 3/16, and 1.5 miles; Sec was 3 (three). Sec could SPRINT (see '73 PREAKNESS) and go the distance (see '73 Belmont). Sec WAS Brilliant.To suggest otherwise is ignorant.
yes frankel was great ,so was shergar dancing brave and nashwan ,golden fleece and another 10 at least but my favourite and most exciting horse i ever seen was brondesbury trained by the bill o,gorman in 1982/83 can you help with any footage of this fantastic horse thank you
the fact is on his breeding as henry cecil confirmed their was to much speed on the dams side. henry cecil always maintains that the dam accounts for 70 per cent of breeding so he says the dam of frankel who was called kind had a big speed influence on frankel
Guys and gals it's not so hard. Taking a global perspective on this question you can't really go past the legendary Secretariat. > Brilliance? 25 length Belmont in WR time to win the Triple Crown. > Competition? 10.5 length victory over #8 USA horse of the twentieth century, Forego in TR time racing from last to first. > Versatility? Won all the way from 6f dirt to 13f turf, including both muddy dirt and heavy turf, in USA and Canada. At each surface and track winning equally easily, making it impossible to pigeon him a stayer or sprinter, a turf or dirt horse, or a good or heavy track specialist. > Looks, size, conformity, musculature: again beats any of the UK horse mentioned.
He was also beaten five times by ordinary horses without having to give them massive amounts of weight. Secretariat was the best 3 year old of all time - no arguments about that. But best horse ever ? No.
There were actually very legtimate reasons for each of the 5 losses: 1x mugged at the gate, 1x harsh DQ for a light bump, 3x raced sick/unfit. So Secretariat had more than his fair share of bad racing luck and trainer errors. But his 1973 season remains the gold standard of equine performance: 6 track records, 1 margin record, 2 world records, triple crown, marlboro cup (forerunner to the Breeders Cup), winning on dirt and turf from 8f to 13f. For the vast majority of his wins no whip was used, they were all multiple length victories and he was still pulling away from his competition at the finish post.
I love American horses, American racing, been following it for years, but you can't trust the performances of those who raced in the 70's and prior, there's a strong suspicion they wasn't racing clean.. so, while visually, some performances are up with the best in Europe, they where never superior, Secretariat's Belmont being the exception - it's hard to compare it with Sea Bird or Ribot's Arc over the same distance - but may have been something unseen before or since on a race course.
Is it just me or does anybody else find that all this frankel bashing about not setting track records and not travelling abroad a bit boring!!!!! Track records count for absolutely nothing in European racing that's why we don't bother with it because we actually have a brain and we use it to realise that there is so many factors that come into racing on that specific day and at that specific time and as for not not travelling that's just ludicrous!!!! Why should he!!! Every owner and trainer in the world knew where he wud be racing next so if they thought they had a horse capable of beating him they could of brought it to challenge him but they didn't and that says it all!! Was he the best of all time... I don't know I'm not old enuf to remember the likes of secretariat and such so I can't say but plenty of people who are old enough and who have far greater horse racing knowledge than the likes of us...for e.g sir Henry Cecil to name 1 says he is so I think il stick with what they say thank you!!!!!!
Agree with you about race times and records, it means nothing. Travelling, not necessary. Where should he have gone? Where in the world were there better milers than Excelebration and Canford Cliffs? He was already beating the 2nd/3rd/4th best horses in the world, why should he travel just to beat the 9th/10th/12th best horses in the world? That makes no sense. What point was there travelling to beat inferior opposition than he was already facing? They level the same criticism at Winx and in her case I think it's justified. She beats the 12th/15th/18th best horses and has never faced the 2nd/3rd/4th best so if she wants the title of world's best she should travel to take on better opposition. If the 2nd/3rd/4th best were Australian horses that would be different, but they're not. The only criticism for me is that they weren't adventurous enough stepping Frankel up to 10f a bit earlier. He could have run at 10f as a late 3yo and then he could have tried the KG VI at 4. As great as his Queen Anne win was and the 2nd Sussex Stks, they were unnecessary and hollow victories, we already knew he was a great miler so what did we learn from those races, nothing new really. I would have much rather seen him in the Eclipse and KG.
@12:37 the truth comes out - Frankel was "wisely" scratched from the King George and The Arc because basically his connections were certain he would lose.
> Frankel (official Timeform 147) market value based on stud fees: 125,000 GBP --> 156, 818 USD x 400 = *$63 million*. > Secretariat (unofficial Timeform 153) market value: 125,000 USD (1973) --> 679, 484 (2017) x 400 = *$271 million*. Who's better? Both the Timeform and the stud fees make it quite clear.
Secretariat stud record - 1st 60 mares - no foals - was it the steroids that caused his infertility when he was retired to stud Ecky? I think so. Now imagine what Frankel, Dancing Brave or Sea The Stars would have been like had they come from a generation where steroids were not banned!
Fake news Grout is back making wild Theresa May type statements with zero evidence: The facts are Secretariat sired 653 foals, 488(75%) of them made it to the racetrack and 328(67% of starters, 50% of foals) were winners. Hardly infertile.
Here you go Ecky - now go wipe that egg off of your face news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19740212&id=Xj0gAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1WYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5278,5048407&hl=en
Steroids can completely stop sperm production in the testes. And Secretariat already had two mares in foal when the article was written, so there is no evidence that root cause applied. What's discussed here is not a sperm production issue but a sperm motility issue, the origin of which is in the epididymis. And that can be caused by multiple factors including genes, heat, varicocele, pesticides, poor nutrition and the non-steroid related hormonal issue of congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
I managed to get to watch Frankel run 8 times in the flesh and all but 1 of those races he took my breath away especially the 2000 Guineas I don't think I will see the like of him again in my lifetime however to compare generation against generation is futile and pointless .
It's great that Frankel is such a fabulous racehorse; I love to know a phenomenal Thoroughbred is being celeb'd. Frankel seems wonderful; they're saying he's 'consistently brilliant' (won almost all his races - brilliantly) Is he 4? 5? The two guys talking suggest he's predominantly a 'miler'. Honestly, I think it's rude & ignorant of you to suggest Secretariat is 'overrated'. At 3, Secretariat set the world record for 1.5 miles (2:24). This record still stands. 3 years old; 1.5 miles; 2:24.
People have a lot of nostalgia with Dancing Brave and Nijinsky but Frankel would have left them standing. Cecil said hes the best horse in the history of racing.
The best 2000 guineas of all time was won by Brigadier Gerard, Don't even try to compare the runners up. I loved El Gran Senor though, he was a brilliant miler.
I agree with you mate. If the Senor had been kept to 8/10f as a 3yo he would have been unbeaten and have as good a record as Frankel. Chief Singer was as good as any horse that Frankel beat.
Secretariat defeating Forego by 10.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby after giving him up both the lead and the inside rail, is the benchmark for a legend defeating a legend.
Drofheilm: He probably would have won it? But it's no better than the English version, it's only as good as the horses that are in it.
5 ปีที่แล้ว +1
Frankel is the Greatest ever END OF. No horse ever born could have lived with him. He was never really pushed. Only Sea Bird and Secratariat could have pushed him but Frankel over one mile and mile and quarter would have prevailed. Over a mile and a half I believe Frankel would also have been KING.
Lol a mile or a mile and a quarter frankel dont come off the bridle 1m4f I'll give you that but that's only because we never see frankel at 1m4f of we did I still think he would of remained unbeaten
A very good horse Frankel was but he never beat what i call outstanding horses, Dancing Brave beat better horses there is no doubt about that, o.k Frankel was very consistent and worthy of a good rating from Timeform but 147? no way not if horses like Dancing Brave are only rated 140
Dancing Brave never beat any outstanding horses, he beat some really good horses, Inc Bering, but Frankel beat equally good horses in Cirrus Des Aigles, Excelebration, Canford Cliffs and Nathaniel.. all 130+ timeform horses..
@@potstrond According to Timeform, Outstanding horses are those rated 140+.. In which case, only Brigadier Gerard to my knowledge beat such a horse when he beat Mill Reef in the 2000 Guineas.. and comparing Dancing Braves competion with Frankel, they rate pretty much the same..
the only horse that was rated against Frankel was Cirrus des Aigles at 135, he beat him by 1.75 lengths say 4 lb, and he was a lesser horse at 6yo, how come Frankel is at 147 ( 12 lb) 6 lengths
@Badlypackedkebab yes he missed the but cirrus was a 6yr old his best days where gone he was doing all his winning over 1m4 on soft not 1m2 he is overrated
I havent found Frankel's time results for hist last 4 furlong and last 2 furlong etc. I really appreciate if someone explains how the ground(grass) was during all his races? Im asking because our best horse (SABIRLI - His Sire is Strike The Gold) could manage to cover last 800 meters (4 furlongs = 804m) in 45.04 seconds in his best and mostly in between 45.38 s - 46.70s mostly he beaten many GR1 horses in Turkey in international races (Godolphins horses etc). He manages to finish 1600m in 1.33.70 (8 meter less than a mile our equivalent races) and many times 1m:35s - 1m:36s. Im not saying he could %100 beat Frankel if they lived same times and met (2005-2007 best years) but I bet he would be a very tough opponent to race neck to neck against Frankel. (WHY UK RACE RECORDS DON'T SHOW LAST 2 AND 4 FURLONG TIMES? ) How it is, what's the degree of the softness of racing ground in UK horce races generally? in TR they say (normal its 3.3, a bit soft 3.4- 3.5 and very soft (sinking) 4.0-4.9) for example..I cant compare the results because its obviously ground and tempo must be different
Secretariat routinely attacked 4f out - part of the reason he was never beaten when fit and major incident free - so he would have cantered that one in. For a mere miler like Frankel however, the tactics were so unusual they were most likely Cecil's deliberate instructions to the jockey to test Frankel's staying power within an 8f race. The horse barely held on and a visibly shaken and disappointed Cecil had seen enough. He immediately scratched Frankel from the 12f King George and stamped Frankel "never to be raced over 12" in order to artificially preserve his unbeaten record and maximize his stud fees.
@postrond All the other horses had to make the same incline, but none of them were described by the caller as "he's going up and down on the same spot!" as Frankel was, in not even a staying distance but a middle distance. Even when he was run sick/unfit (which happened three times) the true GOAT Secretariat was never described so demeaningly. Fact is if Frankel was not could enough to face (much less defeat) the best stayers of his generation, Secretariat, the greatest stayer (and probably middle distance) runner in history would have had to be extremely sick to give Frankel a chance, a horse who when fully fit, conked out after 7f of turf.
@@connorduke4619 it is really incomprehensible to think that one can analyse as you do! You have taken Frankel's one poor run (which he won) and extrapolated it to his entire career. He won over the same ground 12 months later by 11 lengths. Did the other horses drop dead at that point? He won 3 times over firther than a mile. If you want to make a point make it validly otherwise you cannot be taken seriously. If I use Secretariats losses as reasons for his lack of something then I make the same arguments that you do, implausible as that may be. If you want to be taken seriously then make a point which is not based on pure conjecture and which cannot be justified with hindsight.
fact: Frankel only raced on 6 different tracks in 14 race wins, mostly on the same race courses against the same horses and never raced abroad, Ascot (5 times) Newmarket (4 times) Newbury (2 times) Goodwood (1 time) Doncaster (1 time) York (1 time) most of his wins were at a mile, however his last 2 races were at 10 furlongs but never any further his connections never entered him in the bigger events such as the Epsom Derby or the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe or even a crack at going to America for the Breeders Cup, does this still make Frankel the best horse ever? let the debate begin here
If one only learns how great a horse is when they get beaten ....then we'll never know how good he was. Secretariat was beaten 5 times. Seabird only once. So his timeform rating is possibly higher than 147.
the turn of foot peintre celebre showed in the 97 arc was awesome on that performance im sure even frankel wouldn't have lived with it but don't take my word for it WATCH IT YOURSELF
Frankel was a great horse for sure, every sport needs a superstar. Frankel wasn’t stretched or gambled like sea the stars or dancing brave. Why didn’t Frankel try the derby or arc……. For me it’s a toss up between sea the stars and dancing brave. Dancing brave
Glad to see the Dancing Brave fans speaking up. DBs Arc win still sends shivers down the spine.
The horse that was 2nd Bering was the unluckiest horse that day
@@danielleoneill8488 why was he unlucky
Frankel is a great, but Dancing Brave for me was the best based on versatility on opposition faced. From last to first beating a great Arc field with a last furlong worthy of a 5f sprinter was so awesome that we still mention it today.
I think DB probably second best after seabird
I have to agree. DB was not just the unluckiest Derby loser ever, but probably the most versatile racehorse since Nijinsky.
The yardstick to go by is his comprehensive beating of Triptych in the Eclipse ,King George and Arc of 86.
You only have to look at the horses this brilliant filly subsequently raced and won against to appreciate my argument.
Ribot, Seabird, Mill Reef, of the Europeans.
Best 3 year old was Sea The Stars he won the 2000 guineas , The Derby and The Arc in the same year ....say no more.
@Jock Odd Sock Not as consistent? ''Sea The Stars'' only lost once in his career which was his first race as a two year old when he was boxed in at the final furlong, but still managed to finish a close fourth after that he never lost again winning prestigious races such as the 2000, Guineas, Epsom Derby, Eclipse Stakes, International stakes, Irish Champion Stakes, and of course the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in France
Some horses are relentless gallopers and can win by spectacular margins, others will idle when there is nothing to chase and need to be held until the time is right. Frankel was the former but I think the scope of Sea the Stars achievement surpasses anything Frankel did.
@Jock Odd Sock are you for real so Frankel won The Derby the Arch 2000 Guineas FFS.
what did sea the stars win as a 4 year old?
@@colintipton1740 He was unbeaten as a 4 YO.
The "Of alll time" thing just makes this a stupid, unanswerable question. He is the greatest I have seen, but of course he can't really be compared to others from different countries, in different eras over varying distances. We should just consider ourselves fortunate to have witnessed this magnificent creature in all his glory.
I agree a lot with Steve Mellish that frankel is the most consistently brilliant horse I've ever seen imo he would have won an arc had the ground been right it's very hard to knock him really
If they thought he could win an Arc they would have ran him in it but they knew he would not win it.
@@underscore2824 please don't talk rubbish my friend
@@underscore2824 There have been many greats I agree but to say Frankel isn't one is absurd. To say he hasn't beaten anything is also absurd and not just beat them slaughter them making G1 winners look very average I can't agree with anything you have written on here. I don't know why you are anti Frankel but he's the best I've seen and I doubt I'll see a better.
@@underscore2824 Well Frankel did leave Newmarket as his last race proved as it was at Ascot. I'm not a track record person but I remember Frankel when winning the Queen Anne doing a faster furlong than anything in the king stand. A race for G1 sprinters. Frankel last win may not have been as spellbinding as some of his other wins but the ground was desperate and he lost a few lenghts at the start. That day he beat a top G1 performer who loved soft ground in cirrus des aigles. If I where you I'd go and watch his juddmonte win where he was barely extended to beat St Nicholas Abbey multiple G1 winner and Farrh who won an eclipse. If you say you don't like protected horses then you can't like Winx who never left and AUS and barring the odd race beat very poor opposition in comparison to what are good horses do over here. If you can't admire a great like Frankel then dont say things that aren't true.
They never even tried him over 1m4
Secretariat. No one else measures up to this beast, no one.
I think the key is Sec didn't CARE whether he had any competition. He simply ran incredibly fast. He was self-motivated - ran FAST regardless of competition or lack there-of. His owner (P Chenery) stated Secretariat set his own strategies; very intelligent horse! In his 73 Preakness, Sec SPRINTED past the entire pack (Sec went wide) at the first tight curve, passing all the other horses as if they were stationary traffic cones, and held the lead effortlessly: hand-ride, no whips. He's the KING!
I`m not sure Frankel won anything further than 8 furlongs until he was a 4 year old. Frankel was a truly great horse - one of the best, but the likes of Dancing Brave and Sea the Stars, for me, just pip Frankel for greatness, as they both went on and won top Group 1 races from 8 furlongs to 12 furlongs - that is special.
Obviously, this will always be the stick to beat Frankel with and it’s a fair argument to a certain extent. I think it’s a fairly reasonable discussion to point to Frankel’s exuberance in the early to mid part of the race as a 2-y-o and the first half of his 3-y-o season, this could possibly lead to him gassing in the later stages of a fast race...I point to his poor run in the St James. However, that race probably served as a blessing in disguise and I believe over enthusiasm from Queally was a big factor. From that point on I think the whole team of stable, rider, trainer and the horse himself had complete control. By the time Frankel came into his 4-y-o season, he was on a pedestal that transcended both racing and general public that hadn’t been seen or heard of since Shergar’s Derby win over thirty years previously. We had an amazing unbeaten Group One behemoth that literally destroyed all-comers and drew criticism if the winning distance didn’t exceed five lengths! This created a problem because financially, the horses worth at stud would already (far) outstrip anything he could earn on the turf. In fact, the only thing that could devalue this horse would be defeat. It’s to their credit that Sir Henry and The Prince kept him around for one more season, but they had such a sensational horse, I think they couldn’t resist. This (4-y-o) Frankel was the best racehorse ever seen...his Queen Anne was just sensational but his performances in the Juddmonte and the Champion Stakes put all the arguments to bed. Frankel beat proven World Class middle distance fighters in St. Nicholas Abbey (Breeders Cup Turf) and Cirrus Des Aigles (multi group 1 winner and stayer) by simply cruising at a high pace and kicking away when asked. He could easily have done the same in the King George and The Arc but why risk it when it wasn’t needed...He (more) than proved his status in those last two races.
@@jamescarpenter6585 This is a well thought out comment. It's nice to comeback to these old videos and remind ourselves what we saw. I'm an American, and I believe Frankel is the best I've seen. The middle half mile of his Guineas is one of the most absurd things I've seen in racing. He shouldn't have been able to win that race, much less by open lengths. His Sussex was electric, his Queen Anne undeniably brilliant.
But the race for me was the Juddmonte. The way he cruised up to St Nicholas Abbey, a horse that had won at the international level for fun, and then just widened with every stride was incredible. I think they should have tried the Arc in his 4 year old year. By that time he was properly shutting off in his races, and may have shown us how good he really was given the opportunity, but it wasn't to be. And that's okay.
Frankel wouldn't have beaten brigadier gerard over a mile, wouldn't have beaten sea the stars over 10 furlongs ' wouldn't have beaten any one at 12 furlongs.
@@johnoconnell1752 I.agree john,I found this as well
th-cam.com/video/aMvmAsRmwqo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/pfRzDsG3a70/w-d-xo.html
I think its important to seperate achievements and ability. Frankel may not have achieved as much in his career as some of the other greats in terms of versatility/wins abroad etc, but on raw ability, theres not a horse in history who has produced a better performance than his Queen anne at a mile or his Juddmonte win at 10f. I think it's very hard to argue against him being the best horse of all time over a mile to 10f. I'll be very happy if I ever get to see anything like him again.
If he won a King George, a Derby & an Arc, there'd be no debate!
Never will be another frankel. I'm watching racing with over 40yrs. Never seen anything like him. 👍
Since they kicked the old team off Channel 4 Racing, I miss the eloquent in depth race analysis given by these pundits.
As the years pass, the most underrated and almost forgotten horse has become Ribot.
I have been racing now for nearly fifty years most of them as a pro punter and I can tell you he was the best horse I ever saw.
Same here been watching since 1995 when pennykamp won 2000 guineas. My favourite winner would of been shamardal if they had let him take part instead of french derby.
@@harpalchauhan428 Also Lydia has lovely breasts.....
@@harpalchauhan428 he would have no chance against sea the stars no horse would get past him
@@rodneymckee8431 over mile or 7 furlongs frankel would murder him . But in return the same could be said that sea rage stars would murder Frankel over 12 furlongs to mile and a half. But you cannot say sea the stars had any kind of performance over a mile like frankel in the 2000 Guinness.
@@harpalchauhan428 over 7 I agree but the proofs there he could over 1m he wasn't as flashy as Frankel winning by a distance most times but Frankel never posted a quicker time over 1m than sea the stars guineas win. 2 great horses but have to side with sea the stars
A brilliant racehorse, but probably the most hyped racehorse of all time. They didn't have dedicated racing channels back in the day, so fortunately we didn't have to put up with 35 year olds telling us that this was the greatest horse of all time. I've got socks older than some of these people. Frankel beat some good horses, but he never beat a horse anywhere near the calibre of Mill Reef, the greatest miler of all time, Brigadier Gerard, left Mill Reef for dead.
Mill reef was a great mile and a half horse but was not a miler el gran senor would have put brigadier Gérard in his place
@Jock Odd Sock I agree totally best horse I've seen in my 46 years watching racing
Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Sea The Stars ... Frankel had only one gear (which was very fast) but Cecil never took him out of his comfort zone. Never raced over a mile and a half, never raced outside England.
Ger Maher what was outside of England for him u dope
@@danielleoneill8488 what top miler in his prime did Frankel bt from here excelabration a real world beater
Agree with sea the stars to yough to remember nijinsky and dancing brave so can't comment on them
@@rodneymckee8431 Thanks Rodney. When he won the Arc listening to Jim McGrath superb commentary was probably my favourite Irish horse racing moment, exceeding even Dawn Run's Gold Cup.
@@germaher3541 the arc and the Irish champion stakes was his 2 greatest performances and commentary from dessie sscahill we come to see a champion brilliant
His move on the first turn of the Preakness was mindboggling.
Dancing Brave is surely the best thoroughbred to run on these shores. 2000 guineas winner, arguably the most unlucky Derby winner of all time (no blame attached to G Starkey there are trial races) and then won a star studded and arguably best ever Arc.
Frankel over a mile and 10 furlongs was as all the great horses are a thrill to watch.
See the Stars never captured the imagination in the way Frankel did but then Frankel was trained by the extraordinary H Cecil.
Lammtarra shouldn't be involved in any discussion re the greatest horses of all time. Yes he won five top top races one in record time but who did he beat.
Dancing Brave had the speed to win over a mile. The temperament to handle Epsom while clearly demonstrating the ability to win a Derby, and then versatility as stamina combined with speed as witnessed at Longchamp over what is generally regarded as middle distance sprint down the home straight, coming with a wet sail entering the final furlong to beat the best of three generations.
@Paul Gallagher I agree but DB was a close second
Sir Henry Cecil is the only reason he is rated the greatest he was overrated sea the stars would have cruised passed him
To hear these three equine experts discuss Frankel is a delight.
for me! NIJINSKY AND SEA THE STARS are ahead of him (Frankel) different countries,and distances,and the two top races in Europe,only an opinion from a racing fan, but there you have it,great horse one and all.
Im with you sea the stars wasnt chicken shit by going to france
Frankel was beating horses rated around 120 and they were racing for 2nd place and basically letting Frankel do what he wanted.
At the end of the day all the trainers know hes the greatest horse they've ever seen ..they're the experts ..I've been watching racing for 50 years.ive never seen a horse like Frankl ..just a total freak ..never off the bridle ..pure poetry in motion .If all these great horses met frankl would be odds on
So I assume you didn’t see Secretariat race when he set records that still stand after 49 years. Racing times don’t lie
Don't talk nonsense son, Zafonic, Dancing Brave and several others would have put this lot of substandard horses to bed exactly the same..
Do you consider Frankel better than Secretariat? I don't know Frankel, he's obviously a phenomenal racehorse. I'm happy for him & am glad he'll retire safe & SOUND, healthy! To me, Frankel seems (granted, I know little about him) more like Seattle Slew, with the glamour of Man O War. To me, Secretariat remains untouchable, The Greatest (and I acknowledge this is my opinion). Secretariat was Stunning; Fans in the Belmont stands & watching him on TV cried - wept! - at his '73 Belmont.
This conversation only proves to me that 12f champs Dancing Brave and Mill Reef were greater horses than Frankel. The real question should be, who was the greatest British horse of all time: Dancing Brave or Secretariat's small cousin Mill Reef?
Dancing Brave
Frankel was an incredible stunning racehorse, his action reminded me of his ancestor,the greatest sire of the 20th century, Northern Dancer. But I have to confess, the incomparable Sea Bird 11 would have left him for dead, he was a freak, and was never extended.
Lovely champion horse Frankel !! Lovely champion trainer Sir Henry Cecil !!
frankel is the best i ever seen i been watching racing since mid 80s seen some great horses but frankel was something else on a different planet
Blood Horse (US Thoroughbred affiliation, publisher & arbiter) rated Secretariat # 2, after Man O War (#1). MANO won 20 of his 21 races; the US Trip Crown hadn't yet 'evolved' & MANO didn't run in the 1st race of the US Trip Crown. (MANO is almost a legend.) Perhaps you think of Frankel, like many other fans think of MANO or Sec. I'm sure Frankel is wonderful; he receives great tributes from everyone. I don't understand why you would insult Secretariat who is an Icon?
Because frankels followers are rabid
I'm an American. I am not as knowledgeable as seabird. But I know enough. 'Protar' points out Sec lost races - true. Yet no other horse has performed as Sec did. Sec was 3 (three). America's Blood Horse rates Man O War (#1) higher than Sec (#2). I'll accept that; they're the experts. However, I saw Secretariat's performances; they were astonishing, startling, unprecedented. Secretariat was extremely intelligent & a physical freak of nature. Belmont '73 - unparalleled. Sec was Beast & a Genius.
My personal favourite was a turn of foot iv never seen before and that was Peintre Celebre...Never witnessed acceleration like it..
Just watched his arc win. He had to quicken 3 times in the home straight. His final burst is simply electric. Like an F1 car with DRS engaged!
Frankel was a brilliant Guineas winner. He might've beaten anything that day, but all the greats have their day, and many of them several impressive big race wins against a lot better opposition than Frankel EVER faced.
Where's the evidence? He beat 21 grade 1 winners.... including hammering nathaniel numerous times who won 2 grade 1s.. demolished cirus des aigles with consulate ease... his opponents were top class horses of the time as were the times he set
The debate is not whether this is the greatest horse over 1m4f but whether he is the most dominant horse over his best trip and on his best day. That he appears to have been by a lb or two. If you want to vote for the most versatile horse or toughest horse so be it.
Excellent review. Dancing brave, nijinski, sea bird had more versatility and were more exciting to watch. They also beat better horses than Frankel and bullet train did. And therefore greater than frankel.
All this horses you mentioned are super horses but .... Between 7 and 10 furlongs they have no chance with Frankel..... At his pick Frankel would had smoke them.
Better horses? Frankel has beaten 20 group1 winners more than all the others 🤔
More exciting? What's more exciting than watching a horse who's beaten 21 individual grade 1... and winning at ascot by about 10 lengths.. frankel is the best of all time
These so called group one races were never group one races in the past, they have been promoted to group 1 races in order to try and increase the appeal of the sport. Frankel leaving Brigadier Gerard for dead, I'd like to see that, because Brigadier Gerard would have to BE dead for that to happen. Show me the horse that Frankel beat who was even close to the ability of Mill Reef.
@@BertSmithLondon show me a horse that mill reef beat that was close to Frankel? But based on ratings Frankel is deservedly the greatest of all time... he beat everything he had in front of him with ease
interesting,prince khaled was (owner of both frankel and dancing brave)asked which of both these horses was better,he was silent for a while then said,frankel.
Dancing brave and briggadier gerrard.were both brilliant horses.but both got beat.frankel did.nt.
Should have added at what distance?
Dancing brave was the greatest
@@terrymacdonald914 Zoffany, rated 115 at his best, would have beaten Franke in a few more strides. Brigadier Gerard got beaten by a Derby winner, conceding him 11lbs over a distance 2 furlongs past his best, in a time that took 2 seconds of the course record.
I greatly admire Frankel, and he is the best horse we have seen in UK for many years. However, he was not in the same league as Secretariat. On his best performance over 1 1/4 miles, on ideal going, his time would have put him some 30 lengths behind Secretariat, in the Belmont (on the slower dirt surface) at this distance and Secretariat carried on a further 2 furlongs to break the world record over 1 1/2 miles. Secretariat's time over the Belmont 1 1/2 miles was over 2 seconds faster than any horse in the world has achieved over this distance, before or since (this was 1973). Secretariat was not on any medication.
Interesting to compare a dirt and grass surface. Is a grass surface faster? I Recall Dr Fager
running a very fast time for a mile on a dirt surface 1.32 1/5. Presumably that made him the best in the world.
Comparing turf to dirt is an amateurish comparison. No doubt Secretariat on Belmont day was a machine but so was Frankel at Royal Ascot 2012. A 30 length beating of Frankel is about as stupid a comment as I have yet heard.
You really are deluded, Frankel would beat him on grass,a natural surface for a horse, on the bit.
(From Australia) You're raving.
Frankel never ran in fields of 20 horses or more, never won in the US, never won in Japan, never won in Australia. He also raced where pace makers were used and due to the small fields he was fortunate enough to meet horses on equal terms.
Wonderful galloper and definitely one of the best horses in recent memory.
But to compare him to the likes of Man o War, Phar Lap, Carbine and others that carried ridiculously big weights in large fields is a massive stretch.
3yo champion of that season in the uk ?yeah probably buts thats all
Champion stakes 1m2f HEAVY GROUND. Frankel comes out 5 lengths behind the field. 2f out frankel cruses up to the great Cirrus des Aigles on the bridle, then goes on to win easily by 2 lengths.
A great in his prime he was 6 and a shadow of what he once was when they met and best at 1m4 not 1m2
@@rodneymckee8431 you are a true clown
An argument for Frankel not getting the mile & half yes BUT I thought getting Frankel up to 10 furlongs was a feat in its self given he was a complete tearaway at 2 & 3yrs old. But I still have Dancing Brave as my GOAT! His Arc was exceptional & made a field of 18 G1's & 4 Derby winners look 2nd raters.
Was Dancing Braves Arc better than Peintre Celebre's?? I was equally impressed with both.. Dancing Braves for way he came with one swoop, and Peintre Celebre's for his double turn of foot.. Dancing beat better horses, but Pilsudski was a brilliant horse and he (Peintre Celebre) did smash the track record
NASHWAN WON - The 2000 Gns- THE DERBY- The ECLIPS and THE KING GEORGE. All as a 3 year OLD.
Frankel, was the GREATEST MILER of All Time. He NEVER got OUT of His Comfort Zone- in terms of Distance and out of the English racecourse!
You are right about Sec, seabird. You seem objective & very knowledgeable. I & most of America (I was in my teens) watched Sec's Trip Crown on TV. He was astonishing, he become a National Treasure.
The thing that always nagged me was the the fact that they went for the SJP (where Frankel had nothing to prove) rather than the Derby. Frankel could have run 10 pounds below his best at Epsom and still won comfortably.
If you're going to talk about Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard and dancing brave. You have to talk about Sea the stars and even High Chaparral. High Chaparral is one of THE most underrated horses of all time. Look at the horses he beat in the Irish Champion stakes. (after coming back from a leg injury). He beat Falbrav, Alamsharl, Moon Ballad, Islington, Vintage Tipple. He was a Dual Derby winner AND a Dual Breeder's cup winner.
I can't understand it when the they talk about Measuring Frankel against Dancing Braves versatility when Sea the Stars also show similar versatility.
Would have loved to have seen Frankel run in the July cup
The thing with sea the stars is that he was very smart in that he only did enough to win
he wasnt smart enough to win before kinane cut his arse in two though
@@colintipton1740 🤣
Frankel run for sir Henry Cecil !!No horse can ever match Frankel ..
Frankel is the best ever over a mile - Brigadier Gerard the second best miler. Sea-Bird II is the best mile and a half horse. He beat the very best without ever coming out of a hack canter. He was a freak. Dancing Brave's greatest performance was the 86 Arc. Nijinsky's King George win was sensational.Ribot, Mill Reef and Vaguely Noble would have beaten most horse over 10-12f on soft ground.
Frankels Queen Ann/Juddmonte - Sea Birds Derby and Arc - Ribot's 2nd Arc - the epitome of Turf Greatness!
in 2019 Brough ugh Scott now accepts Frankel is the best he's ever seen
Dancing Brave best horse ever no argument.
Now doubt about it Frankel is the greatest horse in the past 5 & half centuries. Im a retired professional exercise rider jockey from Massachusetts. Suffolk Downs racetrack in East Boston. Over in the uk the racetracks are mostly all on the grass. People in the racing business have not seen a horse like Frankel centuries. The documentary of Frankel they mentioned the horse Sham who won so many big stakes but couldn't beat the Greatest horse Secretariat who ronny turcotte jockey in the Belmont stakes 1973 had to look back on the dirt surface who won by 31 lengths. The hall of fame jockey Laffit Pincay . Trainer Bob baffert in California has had some great horses who he retired for breeding. Arrogate won the Dubai cub . Exaggerater is retired . Still today Secretariat no horse has beaten his record in the Belmont stakes mile & half longest race of the 3 races of the triple crown. Secretariats last race was at woodbine Canada racetrack in Canada which ronny turcotte the jockey of secretariat got suspension who called his friend hall of fame eddy maple. On the last race of secretariat on a cold raw day on the grass eddy maple won by 15 lengths over a mile. We will never know if secretariat who till this day has not beaten his record time in his all his races.
A point I strongly agree with Steve Mellish on is never seeing a horse that's produced as many dynamic races back to back to back, etc..as Frankel has. For years to come now the "so-called" experts and lifelong racing fans alike will continue to debate if Frankel was the greatest of all time? Whether you think he is or isn't is irrelevant. What were the odd's of seeing 2 horses the caliber of Frankel and Sea The Stars in a span of just 4 seasons? Lucky to see 1 like either every 20 or 30 years.
The Mighty FRANKEL !!!,
Simply the best.
Henry RIP.
Greatest Race ever involved Mill Reef My Swallow Brigadier Gerard.
That is top top quality shoot out.
BG is the greatest.
Whether you think Frankel is the greatest ever, and personally I do, or not let’s just agree he was outstanding. My personal favourite is Oh So Sharp loved that horse
Dancing brave was the greatest ever, won at different distances took on the best horses going, frankel was a brilliant horse but didn’t take on the same class of horse that dancing brave took on, dancing brave was the greatest, absolute machine
What about sea the stars he done what no other horse ever done still to this very day Frankel shouldn't be top
If not for Sea Bird I would agree with you.
Never even won the Derby. STS was better.
@@deanblake4843 who was the the highest racehorse ever, dancing brave, yea didn’t win the derby but everybody knows it was jockey error, won the guineas, won the coral eclipse, won king George, won arc,, dancing brave was different class
Nobody could touch dancing brave….period…
I love DB but I doubt he could have beaten Sea Bird
Brigadier Gerard won 17/18 so the argument that Frankel (14/14) did it more often does not stand up
more spectacular performances they said. not more numerically. brig on heavy twice only scraped home. they meant more visually stunning runs
Brigadier Gerard was over raced, if he had been wrapped in cotton wool like they do nowadays he would never have been beaten. There are lots of reasons for his defeat. Too many races, not his best distance, track record smashed, giving weight to a Derby winner, and on top of all that Joe Mercer said mucus poured from his nose after the race. Anyone who thinks Frankel would have beaten Brigadier Gerard over a mile, has only ever seen one of the horses run.
@@BertSmithLondon That's one of the true enigmas in racing, how did Roberto ever beat Brigadier Gerard? Both horses smashed the course record.
The best ever 14 from 14 no horse would of ever beaten him including all the old greats
The only reason unbeaten spoon fed nothing to beat
ROTFLMAO! Secretariat would have wasted him. Frankel beat nobody.
Name one horse he beat that went onto win group ones,81 horses winx beat went onto to win group ones
Lmao look at the juddmonte international first ever try at 1m 2f didn't even come off the bridle and there were many group 1 horses in that race .winx beat hartnell in nearly every race hartnell was not even a group 3 horse in England lmao u bunch of winx bumboys she beat 2 very good horses in her career the rest handicapper at best
@@russe19642 well he beat Nathaniel on debut who went on to win many group 1 races and then ended up beating Nathaniel again in his last race which also included other group 1 winners he also beat st nicholas abbey, farhh, excelebration , canford cliffs , helmet , imperial verse and many other group 1 winners so stfu you no nothing
The greatest racehorse Ive ever seen and you won't see anything better then Frankel
(You hurled the 1st insult). Maybe Frankel is the CURRENT greatest? IDK? It's wonderful Frankel is as beloved as Secretariat is. Secretariat was versatile; he showed his intellect, speed & versatility most notably in the 1973 US Trip Crown, at age 3. In the approx. 5 week campaign, Sec won/set STANDING track records @1.25, 1 3/16, and 1.5 miles; Sec was 3 (three). Sec could SPRINT (see '73 PREAKNESS) and go the distance (see '73 Belmont). Sec WAS Brilliant.To suggest otherwise is ignorant.
is up there with them ...only thing annoyed me they never raced out of england
yes frankel was great ,so was shergar
dancing brave and nashwan ,golden fleece and another 10 at least
but my favourite and most exciting horse i ever seen was brondesbury
trained by the bill o,gorman in 1982/83 can you help with any footage of this fantastic horse
thank you
Would have loved to have seen him over a mile and a half which is the real test of a thouroghbred. Still the best horse I've ever seen!
El Gran Senor guineas in 1984 was the best mile performance ever.
How about the 14 wins guys? Frankel is a legend!
the fact is on his breeding as henry cecil confirmed their was to much speed on the dams side. henry cecil always maintains that the dam accounts for 70 per cent of breeding so he says the dam of frankel who was called kind had a big speed influence on frankel
Guys and gals it's not so hard. Taking a global perspective on this question you can't really go past the legendary Secretariat.
> Brilliance? 25 length Belmont in WR time to win the Triple Crown.
> Competition? 10.5 length victory over #8 USA horse of the twentieth century, Forego in TR time racing from last to first.
> Versatility? Won all the way from 6f dirt to 13f turf, including both muddy dirt and heavy turf, in USA and Canada. At each surface and track winning equally easily, making it impossible to pigeon him a stayer or sprinter, a turf or dirt horse, or a good or heavy track specialist.
> Looks, size, conformity, musculature: again beats any of the UK horse mentioned.
He was also beaten five times by ordinary horses without having to give them massive amounts of weight.
Secretariat was the best 3 year old of all time - no arguments about that. But best horse ever ? No.
There were actually very legtimate reasons for each of the 5 losses: 1x mugged at the gate, 1x harsh DQ for a light bump, 3x raced sick/unfit. So Secretariat had more than his fair share of bad racing luck and trainer errors.
But his 1973 season remains the gold standard of equine performance: 6 track records, 1 margin record, 2 world records, triple crown, marlboro cup (forerunner to the Breeders Cup), winning on dirt and turf from 8f to 13f.
For the vast majority of his wins no whip was used, they were all multiple length victories and he was still pulling away from his competition at the finish post.
Drugs bud! Your champion horses are all on it...but I'm sure you gonna say secretariat wasn't!!!
I love American horses, American racing, been following it for years, but you can't trust the performances of those who raced in the 70's and prior, there's a strong suspicion they wasn't racing clean.. so, while visually, some performances are up with the best in Europe, they where never superior, Secretariat's Belmont being the exception - it's hard to compare it with Sea Bird or Ribot's Arc over the same distance - but may have been something unseen before or since on a race course.
My sentiments EXACTLY!
Is it just me or does anybody else find that all this frankel bashing about not setting track records and not travelling abroad a bit boring!!!!! Track records count for absolutely nothing in European racing that's why we don't bother with it because we actually have a brain and we use it to realise that there is so many factors that come into racing on that specific day and at that specific time and as for not not travelling that's just ludicrous!!!! Why should he!!! Every owner and trainer in the world knew where he wud be racing next so if they thought they had a horse capable of beating him they could of brought it to challenge him but they didn't and that says it all!! Was he the best of all time... I don't know I'm not old enuf to remember the likes of secretariat and such so I can't say but plenty of people who are old enough and who have far greater horse racing knowledge than the likes of us...for e.g sir Henry Cecil to name 1 says he is so I think il stick with what they say thank you!!!!!!
davey0610 !!!!!!!
davey0610 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👍
Agree with you about race times and records, it means nothing.
Travelling, not necessary. Where should he have gone? Where in the world were there better milers than Excelebration and Canford Cliffs?
He was already beating the 2nd/3rd/4th best horses in the world, why should he travel just to beat the 9th/10th/12th best horses in the world? That makes no sense. What point was there travelling to beat inferior opposition than he was already facing?
They level the same criticism at Winx and in her case I think it's justified. She beats the 12th/15th/18th best horses and has never faced the 2nd/3rd/4th best so if she wants the title of world's best she should travel to take on better opposition.
If the 2nd/3rd/4th best were Australian horses that would be different, but they're not.
The only criticism for me is that they weren't adventurous enough stepping Frankel up to 10f a bit earlier. He could have run at 10f as a late 3yo and then he could have tried the KG VI at 4.
As great as his Queen Anne win was and the 2nd Sussex Stks, they were unnecessary and hollow victories, we already knew he was a great miler so what did we learn from those races, nothing new really. I would have much rather seen him in the Eclipse and KG.
@12:37 the truth comes out - Frankel was "wisely" scratched from the King George and The Arc because basically his connections were certain he would lose.
> Frankel (official Timeform 147) market value based on stud fees: 125,000 GBP --> 156, 818 USD x 400 = *$63 million*.
> Secretariat (unofficial Timeform 153) market value: 125,000 USD (1973) --> 679, 484 (2017) x 400 = *$271 million*.
Who's better? Both the Timeform and the stud fees make it quite clear.
Secretariat stud record - 1st 60 mares - no foals - was it the steroids that caused his infertility when he was retired to stud Ecky? I think so.
Now imagine what Frankel, Dancing Brave or Sea The Stars would have been like had they come from a generation where steroids were not banned!
Fake news Grout is back making wild Theresa May type statements with zero evidence: The facts are Secretariat sired 653 foals, 488(75%) of them made it to the racetrack and 328(67% of starters, 50% of foals) were winners. Hardly infertile.
Was infertile when still pumped full of steroids - failed to impregnate ANY of his first 60 mares at stud. How many colts did he sire?
Here you go Ecky - now go wipe that egg off of your face news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19740212&id=Xj0gAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1WYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5278,5048407&hl=en
Steroids can completely stop sperm production in the testes. And Secretariat already had two mares in foal when the article was written, so there is no evidence that root cause applied.
What's discussed here is not a sperm production issue but a sperm motility issue, the origin of which is in the epididymis. And that can be caused by multiple factors including genes, heat, varicocele, pesticides, poor nutrition and the non-steroid related hormonal issue of congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
I managed to get to watch Frankel run 8 times in the flesh and all but 1 of those races he took my breath away especially the 2000 Guineas I don't think I will see the like of him again in my lifetime however to compare generation against generation is futile and pointless .
It's great that Frankel is such a fabulous racehorse; I love to know a phenomenal Thoroughbred is being celeb'd. Frankel seems wonderful; they're saying he's 'consistently brilliant' (won almost all his races - brilliantly) Is he 4? 5? The two guys talking suggest he's predominantly a 'miler'. Honestly, I think it's rude & ignorant of you to suggest Secretariat is 'overrated'. At 3, Secretariat set the world record for 1.5 miles (2:24). This record still stands. 3 years old; 1.5 miles; 2:24.
Greatness has to be judged on performances , Steve's point that Frankel's relentless brilliance puts him at number one is a fair point
Frankel is the best !! Frankel is a poetry written by Sir Henry Cecil ..
People have a lot of nostalgia with Dancing Brave and Nijinsky but Frankel would have left them standing. Cecil said hes the best horse in the history of racing.
El gran Senor was a far superior miler,The best Guineas performance of the last fifty years.
1984's Guineas field was arguably one of the finest.
It's almost unbelievable how good the 1984 crop of milers were. The way El Gran Senor brushed them all aside in the guineas was breathtaking.
The best 2000 guineas of all time was won by Brigadier Gerard, Don't even try to compare the runners up. I loved El Gran Senor though, he was a brilliant miler.
I agree with you mate.
If the Senor had been kept to 8/10f as a 3yo he would have been unbeaten and have as good a record as Frankel.
Chief Singer was as good as any horse that Frankel beat.
Nijinsky, Dancing Brave, Frankel, Sea The Stars & Shergar.
Secretariat was and will always be the greatest...
Secretariat defeating Forego by 10.5 lengths in the Kentucky Derby after giving him up both the lead and the inside rail, is the benchmark for a legend defeating a legend.
On a terrible dirt track it’s like taking Frankel to Wolverhampton on a Thursday night ridiculous
Frankel is the best!
Dancing Brave is the best i've seen.
Frankel should have at least went to Ireland as for me their Champion stakes is better than ours.
2011 he'd have won it.
Drofheilm: He probably would have won it? But it's no better than the English version, it's only as good as the horses that are in it.
Frankel is the Greatest ever END OF. No horse ever born could have lived with him. He was never really pushed. Only Sea Bird and Secratariat could have pushed him but Frankel over one mile and mile and quarter would have prevailed. Over a mile and a half I believe Frankel would also have been KING.
I believe if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle
He was never pushed because nothing to bt
sts all the way every ground every trip
@James Richards Frankel couldn't live with sea the stars 1m upwards Sts had enough pace to stay with him and the stamina to go past
Lol a mile or a mile and a quarter frankel dont come off the bridle 1m4f I'll give you that but that's only because we never see frankel at 1m4f of we did I still think he would of remained unbeaten
In all my 60 years of watching racing I have no doubt whatsoever that Frankel was the greatest flat racehorse I've ever seen
A very good horse Frankel was but he never beat what i call outstanding horses, Dancing Brave beat better horses there is no doubt about that, o.k Frankel was very consistent and worthy of a good rating from Timeform but 147? no way not if horses like Dancing Brave are only rated 140
Dancing Brave never beat any outstanding horses, he beat some really good horses, Inc Bering, but Frankel beat equally good horses in Cirrus Des Aigles, Excelebration, Canford Cliffs and Nathaniel.. all 130+ timeform horses..
What is an outstanding horse? You make the statement and back it up with nothing.
@@potstrond According to Timeform, Outstanding horses are those rated 140+.. In which case, only Brigadier Gerard to my knowledge beat such a horse when he beat Mill Reef in the 2000 Guineas.. and comparing Dancing Braves competion with Frankel, they rate pretty much the same..
Frankel is not a 147 on the class of horse he bet the only reason for that rating trainer
@@leesog3203 that ratings form is a joke and isn't internationally recognized
the only horse that was rated against Frankel was Cirrus des Aigles at 135, he beat him by 1.75 lengths say 4 lb, and he was a lesser horse at 6yo, how come Frankel is at 147 ( 12 lb) 6 lengths
@Badlypackedkebab yes he missed the but cirrus was a 6yr old his best days where gone he was doing all his winning over 1m4 on soft not 1m2 he is overrated
I havent found Frankel's time results for hist last 4 furlong and last 2 furlong etc. I really appreciate if someone explains how the ground(grass) was during all his races? Im asking because our best horse (SABIRLI - His Sire is Strike The Gold) could manage to cover last 800 meters (4 furlongs = 804m) in 45.04 seconds in his best and mostly in between 45.38 s - 46.70s mostly he beaten many GR1 horses in Turkey in international races (Godolphins horses etc). He manages to finish 1600m in 1.33.70 (8 meter less than a mile our equivalent races) and many times 1m:35s - 1m:36s. Im not saying he could %100 beat Frankel if they lived same times and met (2005-2007 best years) but I bet he would be a very tough opponent to race neck to neck against Frankel. (WHY UK RACE RECORDS DON'T SHOW LAST 2 AND 4 FURLONG TIMES? ) How it is, what's the degree of the softness of racing ground in UK horce races generally? in TR they say (normal its 3.3, a bit soft 3.4- 3.5 and very soft (sinking) 4.0-4.9) for example..I cant compare the results because its obviously ground and tempo must be different
Because he's sectionals are crap
1m2f
Frankel vs Sea The Stars
Who wins?
What was the reason for Frankel's questionable St James peformace other than lack of stamina?
An appalling ride where he was asked to sprint uphill for four furlongs. Any other horse would have been beaten
Secretariat routinely attacked 4f out - part of the reason he was never beaten when fit and major incident free - so he would have cantered that one in.
For a mere miler like Frankel however, the tactics were so unusual they were most likely Cecil's deliberate instructions to the jockey to test Frankel's staying power within an 8f race. The horse barely held on and a visibly shaken and disappointed Cecil had seen enough. He immediately scratched Frankel from the 12f King George and stamped Frankel "never to be raced over 12" in order to artificially preserve his unbeaten record and maximize his stud fees.
@@connorduke4619 400m out on a 10m incline no! Do you really know what it is you are comparing?
@postrond All the other horses had to make the same incline, but none of them were described by the caller as "he's going up and down on the same spot!" as Frankel was, in not even a staying distance but a middle distance. Even when he was run sick/unfit (which happened three times) the true GOAT Secretariat was never described so demeaningly. Fact is if Frankel was not could enough to face (much less defeat) the best stayers of his generation, Secretariat, the greatest stayer (and probably middle distance) runner in history would have had to be extremely sick to give Frankel a chance, a horse who when fully fit, conked out after 7f of turf.
@@connorduke4619 it is really incomprehensible to think that one can analyse as you do! You have taken Frankel's one poor run (which he won) and extrapolated it to his entire career. He won over the same ground 12 months later by 11 lengths. Did the other horses drop dead at that point? He won 3 times over firther than a mile. If you want to make a point make it validly otherwise you cannot be taken seriously. If I use Secretariats losses as reasons for his lack of something then I make the same arguments that you do, implausible as that may be. If you want to be taken seriously then make a point which is not based on pure conjecture and which cannot be justified with hindsight.
All these horses bloodlines lead back to the greatest sire of the 20th century the great Canadian horse Northern Dancer
Secreteriat! Without a doubt
He didnt beat much
fact: Frankel only raced on 6 different tracks in 14 race wins, mostly
on the same race courses against the same horses and never raced abroad,
Ascot (5 times) Newmarket (4 times) Newbury (2 times) Goodwood (1 time)
Doncaster (1 time) York (1 time) most of his wins were at a mile,
however his last 2 races were at 10 furlongs but never any further his
connections never entered him in the bigger events such as the Epsom
Derby or the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe or even a crack at going to
America for the Breeders Cup, does this still make Frankel the best
horse ever? let the debate begin here
If one only learns how great a horse is when they get beaten ....then we'll never know how good he was.
Secretariat was beaten 5 times. Seabird only once. So his timeform rating is possibly higher than 147.
the turn of foot peintre celebre showed in the 97 arc was awesome on that performance im sure even frankel wouldn't have lived with it but don't take my word for it WATCH IT YOURSELF
I just did. Not as impressive as Seabird in the Derby
Frankel was a great horse for sure, every sport needs a superstar. Frankel wasn’t stretched or gambled like sea the stars or dancing brave. Why didn’t Frankel try the derby or arc……. For me it’s a toss up between sea the stars and dancing brave. Dancing brave
Why only British horses? Man o war, phar lap, secretariat world have murdered frankel
Matteo Rodriguez nonsense
Sea the Stars was a better horse and he won the better races.