Height Speaker Placement And Type Of Speakers!?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
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Anthony Grimani's take on the original question from our talk with him: • Height Speaker Placeme...
There are many opinions about where and what to place as height speakers. Do you bounce it up from your main speakers? Or do you go with speakers up high? Can you mix or match techniques? What are your opinions and why did you come to those conclusions? Thanks for watching and thanks for any comments you may have. Also a big thanks to all the subscribers and those that are channel members, you make this all happen!
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Something people need to understand is that "Sub-optimal" doesn't necessarily equate to a bad experience. It just means the position of the speaker is not optimized as the format wants. I was using 5.2.2 for 6 years which is very sub-optimal, and I had an amazing Atmos experience. After adding Atmos, even with just two Top-Middle speakers at 90 degrees, my movie watching experience was so positively effected by this that it pushed me to research everything I could about immersive audio to try and understand what was happening.
So you do the best you can with what you have to work with. Every room is going to have a speaker setup that is perfect for THAT specific room. Its just up to you to find what that is for YOUR room.
This is another reason to have the couch away from the back wall. As well as the improved perception of bass and of course, the upgraded surround sound experience. Having the couch off the back wall by at least a couple of feet may actually help the surrounds, and the rear height speakers disappear. Ok, maybe not the Dynamics, but those ambient sounds can sometimes sound as if there's a whole wall of sound coming from behind me. Btw my room's only 13 x 11.5 ft.
Where there's a will, there's a way
Locating a speaker when its playing a surround mix is different to a pink noise though. During a surround mix multiple speakers are playing to virtualize a point of sound, , it is alot harder to find the location of the speaker, if well calibrated and your sitting position is optimized you shouldn't be able to tell which speaker is playing what unless it is pure left or pure right etc.
People are led to believe that if you put speakers where others say to place them things will be perfect, Not true and just because you hear pink noise doesn't mean things are perfect so I agree with you
Should the front heights be directly above the front bed layers and the rear heights directly above the bed layer rears in a 7.1.4? I was wondering if it would be better to put them in the 4 corners of the room or not. Note - the heights can be towed in and tilted down with the brackets they're on.
This is what I'm proposing. I go into detail here - th-cam.com/video/4CNneY6JtTU/w-d-xo.html
Yes, whenever possible, put the height channels directly over their corresponding ground level channels. Unless your room is exceptionally long (Longer than 15 feet), in which case you want to add Top-Middles for 6 upper layer speakers. If your room is longer but you can only do 4 upper channels, then look at placing them between 45 and 55 degrees. Still name them as Front and Rear height though, as this allows you to use Auro3D and has major benefits for DTS:X and Neural-X.
In an Auro3d setup with 7 bed layer speakers and 4 heights where should the back heights be placed? Above the side surrounds, above the back surrounds or somewhere between?
I have mine in between in ceiling. Ideally, I’d like both so I could switch, and I’ve drawn the line... 17 speakers in my living room is enough. 😂
According to Auro, above your side surrounds. Remember, Auro 9.1 is 5 ear level and 4 heights. Auro 10.1 is the same as 9.1 but adding the VOG channel. Auro 11.1 is adding the front height speaker above the TV or screen. Then, we get into 13.1 which is finally when they add the surround back channels. Wilfriend did not want to add surround back as it's much harder for us to hear directly behind us.
@@TechnoDad Thanks! Love all the work you do for the Home Theater enthusiasts.
@@carywatson1146 at 17 you're the last person to fathom the idea of "drawn the line." hahahahahah
It says in the denon manual it's preferrable to use the middle but the option for rear as been added. I think I hear ol Willie say the base sound is extended up to the heights above it, as that is what he found sounded most like the hall he designed it in. With humans hearing things not from pinpoint locations but from lots of natural reflections.
I put my Top-Middles on the same line as my Front and Rear Heights. Of course, I'm using bookshelf speakers, not in-ceiling. But I have them mounted on the ceiling, directly above their corresponding speakers.
Nice! How are the overhead effects??
@@TechnoDad pretty good so far. Played Man of Steel and the spaceship PA system was right overhead.
300 was INSANE during the "Fight in the shade" scene. It straight up sounded like I was beneath Spartan shields as arrows thunked into them and whistled through the air all around us. It sounded good on my 5.2.2 system but this was next level.
Hmmm, so are you stating that your base layer side surround speakers are 100% in line with your front and rear surround speakers? -OR- are your side surround speakers slightly wider apart then either you fronts or rear surrounds given that your side surrounds are likely closer to the side walls then your fronts are.
@@johndaddabbo9383 They are in line with the front and rear surround speakers. The side surrounds are about 12 to 18 inches wider than the rest of the speakers (mounted on the side walls)
I've seen multiple people with living room home theatre set ups asking about an Atmos set-up with the main seating near a rear wall , no one's ever mentioned the surround height setting on Denon receivers,has anyone tried it and set up correctly it should give phantom rear base level and height level, same as your fronts do
Here's the thing...that surround height option in the Denon/Marantz AVRs is not supported with Atmos as that is part of an Auro-3D layout. Meaning...if you have Surround Height selected as your rears and you play Atmos content, you will get no sound from those speakers.
The sound that you hear from rain is from the ground, most likely hear the sound from the bed layer , and reflection from height speakers.
When it rains at my house I hear it hit the roof. If I’m outside it hits the trees and umbrella, I guess if I stand in the driveway without an umbrella getting soaked I’d hear it hit the ground?
I meant when it's raining and the actors are under something like an umbrella or in a home...
@TechnoDad when you said that,it just made me think about john wick rain scene, most people use this as reference for atmos and it would sound the same in a 5.1 sound bed, which I tested.
I think front heights should be between the center and L&R.
Tow them toward listening position to be on axis.
Rain doesn’t make sound from up high. Rain makes sound as it hits the ground.
For on walls, Front, front height, rear height, and rear surrounds should be positioned as if it was a line array arcing over your head, so that the dispersion and reflection characteristics are similar. Not facing inward from the sides. IMO. If you’re ceiling height doesn’t have the distance matching your front speakers then I would move them inward until you have the same degree of separation for stereo imaging.
My rented apartment listening space is 9x9x9 lol
@@baracudasmile that’s rough…😁
Doesn't Atmos ignore side surround "heights" designation from AVR? So you have to designate them as top middle if you want them to fire...
Correct...not supported. So another speaker designation is better.
There are some processors and receivers that can use Surround Heights with Atmos. The Monoprice, Storm and Trinnov. D&M starting with the 4700/6700/7015/8015. Of course the newest D&M receivers can do it as well. When they do that, as far as I know, it sends the same information to the Surround Heights that it would send to the Rear heights.
If you set up a 6 channel AVR, and set it up as Front height, Surround Height and Rear Height, then Atmos will ignore the Surround Heights, and Auro will ignore the Rear Heights. Thus, it is best to set up a 6 height channel config as Front Height, Top-Middle and Rear Height because then Atmos will read all 6 and Auro3D will treat the Top-Middle as a Voice of God array.
I am using STR AZ7000 with calibration IX. I agree and have front height high on the wall, yet due to Dolby angles they are just a bit wider than the 65 A95L. Rears are wireless RS5S on stands just above head level. Logic is less wires, and using the bouncy house speakers the weakest of the Dolby techniques behind the head since the listening position is close to the back wall like techno dad. However I rent an apartment so I can not cut 8 inch holes in the ceiling. My middle height SS-CSE are on the wall near the ceiling just in front of the listening position. I have a nice desperation between all the speakers for this small listening space. The entire system is Sony to keep the tone right. Bedlayer is actually 6 as I use the acoustic center lift on the TV. RS6S use multiple speakers aimed in different directions. Fronts are as wide as possible so inline with top middle and rear surrounds Ideally right before watching a movie I should move the couch forward one foot. I agree with Joe n tells logic, that sound moving front to rear along the wall make sense to me, since that is what I have. I like that you guys are using scientific discovery to learn what is best kinda like myth busters.
In a lot of cases with movie soundtracks, I’ve heard that 4 heights can work better than 6 heights. With 6 heights on many soundtracks the height effects get pushed to the middle height speakers. I have not tested this myself, but if this is accurate it doesn’t make sense to me.
I’ve heard that hearsay as well, along with many others we have just went with that without testing. I believe he is alluding to a new concept that will be revealed in the Dolby interview that we may be wrong. Anyway I really need to experiment with this 4 vs 6 issue.
its not hearsay, its 100% true. On any soundmix that is a full "Bed channel mix" meaning only the 9.1 "beds" are being used (as if they were channels) and those beds are in the 7.1.2 configuration at the Top-Middle location for the heights. In that case, only the Top-Middles will be active. However, THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE SOUNDTRACK WAS MIXED THIS WAY. The sonic presentation will be about 98% the same as 4 heights, simply being more discrete from the Top-Middle compared to the slightly diffuse imaged objects from Top-Front, Top-Rear. The end result is the same. A similar effect happens with "locked" 7.1.4 soundtracks (Disney is notorious for those) where the objects are static in the Front Height/Top and Rear Height/Top regions. Nothing passes through the middle zone, so the Top-Middles are silent. Again, it was mixed this way and there is no problem with the presentation.
However, when you encounter a fully active soundtrack, absolutely ALL of your height channels will be engaged. Alita Battle Angel is one such sound mix. Check that movie out if you havent already. The other types of Atmos mixes are compromised by their very nature, I wouldn't base my setup on those, but instead on the effects of a fully active sound mix. The compromised mixes will sound just fine. And the active mixes will sound even better because of the increased spatial resolution of having 6 height channels.
@@FURognar I like all of your details thanks for sharing gives me plenty to take in and learn. I don't know if you have a manual that you are basing this on or just hearsay but I would like to read the white paper on this you just described if you could kindly share it with the community.
I didn't enjoy my 4 svs elevations mounted high on the wall, until I turned them up about 5 db, higher than the surrounds and fronts.
I think speaker placements has a lot to with the room, What is the standard size room ? It may be my hearing but speakers placed on the front wall or rear wall just gives both front and backstage a bigger sound and doesn't cover overhead, What I do is place my heights in a box around my MLP but inside of my baselayer
Interesting, do you have the toolkit? I don’t but it looks like an object in a specific space will have issues if the speaker is not located at the front and rear because there will be lost real estate it might struggle to accommodate
@@trauma50disaster1My point is based on experience, I thought I was doing something great by buying 2 pairs of Klipsch RP8060FA speakers with the built-in Atmos speaker, I was wrong, I also placed my Atmos speakers on the front wall up high but it just expanded both front and backstage, Auro3D with the voice of God speaker overhead with Atmos on the wall sounds the best and most accurate to me with 4 ceiling or 6 in ceiling coming in 2nd based on my room and experience
6 heights would be nice
Any thoughts on Tannoy VX8 concentric speaks for all channels in a home theater?
Joe, question please: are you stating that your base layer side
surround speakers are 100% in line with your front and rear surround speakers? -OR- are
your side surround speakers slightly wider apart then either your fronts or rear surrounds given that your side surrounds are likely closer to the side
walls then your fronts are... or do you really have your side surround speakers pulled out from the side walls just as far as your front speakers are from the side walls?
Spot on chana! Totally agreeed
I have a 5 bed layer with 4 over head. I sit close to back wall, it is what it is. My front heights are in line with front L/R and my top middle height are inside the front heights slightly. I set it that way for your left to right pans from front to back or back to front…..kind of like drawing an arch from front right to left back. Seems to work well but I’m just a dude who over thought placement maybe. Sounds good to me and speakers look like they are in a good place so all is good
The sony 7000avr asks for lots of mesurements of height, distance from screen, distance from mlp, etc, and from two different mic angles so if you have speakers out of position it can try to accomodate. There is also a setting for movie and music that tries to "place" speakers more ideally. Also there is the 360 Sound Spatial Mapping that works to help if speakers are out of place. They all work good for me.
I wish other manufacturers would add elevation into their measurements like Sony, Trinnov and Yamaha do.
Yo fellas😊
Hi Mike!
Technodad, I Disagree slightly.
Here's a great reference to go off of by home theater gurus:
th-cam.com/video/s4A_frIGG7k/w-d-xo.htmlsi=94SqllLn9WoZEoIO
th-cam.com/video/kGZsrU4oNAM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=lMy9meK4gMizJrZn
All speakers should be focused on the main viewing position and be pulled away from the front bed layer. I have my heights Forward and in a lil and towed in towards the main listening position. I believe that's why they make in ceiling speakers with adjustable tweeters that can be pointed towards the main listening position.
I half disagree with this. I know about Home Theater Gurus and suggest that page for people who need to know how to set up their system. But their specific setup technique is only really good for 4 upper layer speakers, not 6. If you are inclined to set up 6 height speakers, I would go with Technodad's methodology, not HTG's. HTG's setup suggestions are specifically designed to do two things: 1, separate the height layer from the ear-layer. and 2: bring the Front and Rear Top speakers closer together for better stereo imaging overhead. It does not AT ALL consider the ability to create taller soundstages in the front and rear of the room, which is something that is incredibly common in Atmos sound mixes. One merely has to look at an Object Viewer to see where the sound designer places a majority of the sound objects.....hint: 80% of them tend to be above the front stage. NOT above the audience, but above the front speakers, meant to be at the top of the viewing screen or display. Home Theater Guru's methodology can't accomplish this, and its an extremely common scenario in these sound mixes.
This is why 6 height channels are being suggested more and more. 4 heights is not sufficient for many larger rooms. In a smaller room it works because your Front and Rear Tops can be close enough to support the front and rear soundstages while still being close enough together to create solid stereo images from above. In rooms longer than 15 feet, this becomes more difficult and thus, you have to make a decision between stereo imaging/layer separation and vertical imaging/coherence. When you implement 6 upper layer channels, this choice disappears. You have the entire ceiling covered. You can go 30 degree front and rear height angles which gives you optimal vertical coherence (objects can image more precisely between layers, which is difficult to do when height speakers are mounted above 45 degrees. See Kimio Hamasaki's research for NHK for the 22.2 immersive format for this info) and the Top-Middle exists between the Front and Rear Heights which takes over for objects passing directly overhead, no longer relying on stereo imaging to render said objects. In addition, you gain coherence between the Top-Middles and the Side Surrounds making objects passing through the middle of the room seem more tangible. This is where the real "magic" of immersive audio comes in. As objects swirl around the listeners, they sound like they are really in the space with you. This is MUCH harder to achieve with only 4 heights (Not impossible, just requires a lot more expensive processing power and calibration savvy)