I think what happened with the questlines is they significantly underestimated how quickly they could be completed in both standard and wild. Funnily enough I think they ended up making the same mistake in testing these that they did with Rastakhan's Rumble where they were testing what would be a fun way to play the set rather than optimal ways of playing the meta. It seemed like they weren't testing what would happen if someone went all in on completing the quests quickly.
They should hire some streamers and pros for testing. As it is obvious they don‘t have any idea how the main playerbase is gonna play and how they use or abuse cards.
I remember Trump pulling out an illegal list to show how absurd the mage quest was and demolishing everything with it in the test streams lol Edit: illegal being it ran less than 10 cards from the new set
Mark Rosewater had already proved two times, that too much consistency is bad for card games. He designed a cycle of cards that were supposed to start in your opening hand, their power level was lower and you started with one less card to compensate. Playtesters hated it and the design never saw the light of day... in its original form. They created some "companion" creatures like 20 years later, in Ikoria, they were just that, except their power level wasn't lower and you started with the usual 7 cards in hand, the tradeoff was that you had to build your deck a specific way. It's one of the most hated mechanics, they all got erratad to cost 3 more.
Yes pretty much that. The fact you can get something like a Time Bomb make players feel really punished for something they can't do nothing. But we already know Hearthstone Team does not learn with mistakes from others.
yeah passively starting with more resources even if that resource isn't that great is good. I'l admit i underestimated companions, and im glad they nerfed it.
2 times? Maro himself is consistently the source of so many banned cards. The guy writes nice design articles but goes against his writings very often.
The biggest issue with questlines is that they can be completed way too early in the game and once completed you can't do anything to stop your opponent from outright murdering you on turn 6-7.
I feel like all quest lines should just have strong one time use minions or spells as rewards. Quests should be something you just have going on in the background that you complete at some point in the game and get a cool thing to play afterwards. Nt something you are forced to then build an entire deck around. It's just not as fun as it makes the entire game too linear and repetitive. Things like The last Kaleidosaur or the current Druid quest are great examples of that. Things you can just complete eventually during play and then you get a big fun minion to play at the end that csn swing a game back in your favour but had no real lasting impact on the game beyond its summon.
@@Noobie2k7 Not just questlines. I think Hearthstone''s biggest problem is its card design philosophy, sure, let's make completely broken cards, see how it ruins the game for everyone, not do anything about it and then make a completely pointless "balance change" that either does absolutely nothing or nerfs them to the ground just to make the player base shut up about it. Cards shouldn't be so broken that they instantly win you the game without you been able to do something about it, that's frustrating to play and not fun at all. Just like on Journey to the Sunken City they introduced a minion that can counter your opponent's next play I'd like to see more minions like this,, but also counter spells, but not just simple counters, like you negate a spells effect, but you have to sacrifice 10 life or armor.
The quests have always been a problem. The fact that there's absolutely no way to counter a quest other than beating their face in before they complete the quest completely soured me on them.
Dunno if anyone remembers Wild Ranked when United in Stormwind released, but it was a clucking dystopia. The meta warped around Demon Seed to the point where you were either playing a version of Questline Warlock or one of its direct counters. Nothing in between. Titans of Wild Ranked that had been viable for years like Odd Paladin, Secret Mage and Reno Priest were gutted out of ladder all it once. The Questline being able to be completed so fast that you could actually drop Tamsin on curve put a hard cap on the amount of turns any game involving the deck could have. It came to the point where they had to *ban* it in Wild, along with the changes to it in Standard. And Wild is *supposed* to be a higher power format. Safe to say, it was the deep end of how bad it could go when making these kinds of cards. Even to this day, the Hunter and Warrior Questlines and The Caverns Below still see play on ladder. And even though the Wild Meta is much healthier today, it's still a testament to just how much power the consistency of these Questlines can bring, should they grow out of control.
Interesting. Where'd you get those numbers? They're good decks, yeah. The Hunter one is even Tier 1. But there's also stuff like Mecha'thun Warlock and Aggro Priest running around, now. Maybe your own anecdotal experience shows a lot of match-ups against those Quests, in which case that is unfortunate. But looking at the bigger picture? The Quests aren't the only powerful forces around now.
@@s.dalner7245 well, I made them up; it's just my experience. Maybe youre right and Im unlucky, but it feels like they still dominate the meta, with the exception of an occasional warlock or aggro priest
They're definitely still out there, running around and cashing in wins, no doubt. And I do understand if people still find them as frustrating to play against, and that they think the meta would be healthier with them gone. I tend to feel the same way, at least with the Questlines. The Un'goro and Dalaran ones were of better caliber, I believe.
A flaw about questlines is that they were not extreme enough. You didn't have to fully commit to them and they provide only a moderate advantage. They were not as risky as likely intended. What they should have done is force the player to build the entire deck around one card with the payoff of basically a guaranteed win somehow. It's not necessarily overpowered because they can easily be countered by offense based decks and provide much more tension during a game.
Honestly coming from MTG a good card to print would be something like "Spirit of the Labyrinth" which is a creature that doesn't allow more than one card drawn per turn
Searching for new ideas, the dev team settled on adding duels mechanics to hearthstone from United in Stormwind onward. The scamstone result has driven players away
Stealthed 9/7 is dumb. The new 1/3 is even dumber. Sure they play for board etc. etc. blah blah. It's still stupid uninteractive bullshit like the rest of the questlines.
To add to what you said, I feel like a good quest(line) consists of three things: a) Slow progress. A quest that is completable consistently by turn 4-6 will propably become a problem, depending on the reward, because it speeds up games. b) A good reward. Sth that really shifts the game, because you were able to finish the quest and get a good reward, that swings in your favour, as long as there still is counterplay (I mean the cavern below minions couldnt even be silenced to be back at 1/1s). c) It shouldnt force you play in a very suboptimal way. Again caverns below. The quest wouldnt have been so horrible if you didnt need to sacrifice your whole deck to complete it. You played things like Stonetusk Boar and Youthful Brewmasters which are just bad minions in a vacuum, because they dont bring anything like tempo or value to the table on its own, and in order to get the quest reward you needed to fill your whole deck with fire flys and bounce effects and boars. In my opinion a good deck would just require you to build your deck like 80-90% optimaly and the rest is quest sacrifice so you are at a disadvantage while going on the quest but get the tempo/value back as soon as you finish it.
I think part of why Paladin Silver Hand Recruit quest line isn't awful is because 1) It synergizes with one specific thing: Silver Hand Recruits. Blizzard can keep its power in check much better compared to Mage quest which synergizes with any damaging spell, Rogue which benefits from any bounce/token generating effect, etc. And 2) the quest forces you away from synergizing with the quest. There are very few 1 cost cards that generate or benefit Recruits, so once you get the payoff, you can't have many cards in your deck which will make your Recruit synergy much stronger. Compare to Mage quest where the spells which activate the quest also benefit from its spell damage boost, meaning that all the cards which push you to quest completion can also benefit from quest completion.
Time warp was bullshit (OTK card). Many quests have introduced loads of eternal value without being particularly polarizing, since they still allowed equally slow decks to at least try. Chrystal core was a problem. The demon seed even worse. Sorcerers gambit would have been an amazing design if ignite didn't allow mage to just puke out their cards without thinking. Juggernaut has too much high roll potential. Otherwise no generation of quests were really a mistake. When I think of it. UiS mostly just had WAAAY too much OTK support and infinite damage from hand.
Yeah druid and rouge are the ones without inf shit and there for i like them *kill the priest quest plz bli control is so unplayebel with its mere exsistens *
Thanks for this video, really like how you went back and compared the older quests as well. I mainly play Hunter, so I hope it will be good next set, but I don’t want another rock, paper, scissors situation, like you said at the end. If it ends up being that then I may be saying goodbye to Hearthstone, at least until Questlines rotate.
The saviors of uldum paladin quest was always strange to me. Like they made a quest that would never get more support. So as expansions came out, the quest just got weaker than it already was. Weird, paladin has never had a good quest.
5:22 Dude. Hidden Oasis, introduced _in the same set,_ gives you a 12-health heal and a 6/6 Taunt blocker. Imagine losing before you get to Turn 6 at minimum. Druid is the ultimate "call an ambulance, BUT NOT FOR ME" class.
The only 2 questlines that are Just good and not disgusting from UIS are druid and rogue, and it's simple why, because, they are bombs, that still interacts with your oponent. So yes, you've got the point. I would personally even compare those 8 and caverns with gen and baku, effect is too strong to be active in early and mid stage of game, but kinda OK at the end.
Yea, they were. Not in terms of design but in terms of powerlevel. I hate what Stormwind did to both metas and the aftermath still hasn't been resolved... I think there are so many things that were done wrong about questlines: 1) First, it's weird how so many of them reward continuous effects. Your examples of Caverns Below and Untapped Potential were perfect, they reward passive strong effects. And as we see such rewards completely change the gameplay, like if you have a passive treasure from Duels. It's fine to reward something like this but you have to be VERY careful with how easy you can get to them. Questline Hunter is just Raza Anduin Priest that you get earlier and easier. (why does it require only 6 damaging spells total?) 2) Another thing that I don't understand is why some of them supported already existing strong decks. Spell Mage was already good before Stormwind but then it got the questline (plus Ignite, which is another problem). Warrior's questline is insane addition to the Wild Pirate Warrior (still a big problem). 3) Also personally me and my friends dislike that the rewards have premium stats. Why these minions have to be 7/7 minimum? Not only they get an advantage in terms of gameplay but also you first have to deal with a big minion on board (yes, sometimes it's not easy even if they don't drop it straight up on turn 5). Anyway, I think this was a good video about the issue. And as a Wild player it's insane how one expansion ruined so many things for me... Forged in the Barrens was strong but the Wild meta was interesting. Then Stormwind came out... 8 months later Questline Warrior and Hunter are still too strong imo. It's only a matter of time when they are going to become S tier decks again. P.S. Btw seen a few comments and I gotta agree that I don't think it's that necessary for you to add random item pictures to go accompany your words. I like when you show cards, artworks, gameplay, etc. That's already enough to keep attention.
Quests allow the opponent to play the game by themselves. All I wanna do is summon minions and attack the enemy hero. They get destroyed every time, and the opponent completes their quest without playing any minions. I got to the point where every time I ran into Warlock I just autoconceded. I'm bout to spend the whole game just trying to summon something and attack, but it's too late because I'm losing my opponent's health. I refuse to make a deck I don't even want just so I don't lose. This isn't fun.
Hi there. I will preface that I don't play hearthstone (at least haven't in 6 yrs) but still found your (and especially this) videos an interesting watch. I like analyzing game design/balance in competitive pvp games and I think your use of "polarization" and subsequent explanation of the concept (using concrete examples) was really well done. Prior to this video, I have yet to see anyone else use the term when analyzing pvp games (besides when I talk to myself like friends don't exist), and I think the concept can be very beneficial when analyzing not just match ups (like in your video), but also aspects like cheese/jank and future direction of a game. sorry for the word of text and have a nice day. :)
Ahh, Jungle Giants. I play this card in Wild since its release and it is possible, with luck, to drop Barnabus with the 7th mana crystal due to Oaken Summons into Mukla/Cursed Disciple, Bloom and Cairne. Paladin is the only class with 3 Quests who never managed a good or "succsessfull" status. Warrior with Fire Plume/ Pirate Shaman with Battlecry Hunter with Questline Rogue with Crystal Core Druid with untapped Potential Mage with Questline(even though I currently see alot of Uldum Quest in wild) Priest with Deathrattle Warlock with Demon Seed Uldumquest Heropower from Paladin is dope though. IMO
I don't think they were a mistake, I just think they were powercrept too hard like the rest of the game. Early quests didn't usually finish fast and didn't guarantee you the win when you finished them, they were limiting how you play and build to have an advantage when you finish. Now (or before I quit) it is about throwing everything away to finish the quest so you can win before your opponent finishes their quest and wins
@@shieldphaser Ayy you're right.. Sadge :( I don't think they can save it either because even if they make balanced expansions most players won't give it another chance and wild will still be dead
@@mitchelrowe6915 making balanced expansions would mean weaker expansions, which means less cardpack purchases, so that's not going to happen. They dug their own grave though. Hearthstone's core means of interaction with the opponent is board control. Interaction is the antithesis of consistency because interaction allows your opponent to disrupt you, and those who make decks to win want consistency. Therefore, blizzard providing so many means to win that didn't rely on board control effectively killed interaction, putting us in the current situation.
Of all the quests, there have only ever been a few that I really took exception to. Two are questlines. Defend the Dwarven District and Raid the docks. The other one I really hate playing against is Obelisk's eye, with it's incredible consistency and the ability to take a card and make it huge, while having extreme survivability in the early game just bothers me. I also dislike the priest questline, but that's more a product of my decks are intended to fight the long haul,which that deck kills me for doing
Before I watch this videos, YES THEY WERE A MISTAKE, in fact the biggest mistake yet. You shouldn't have your infinite value wincon every time at the start of every game and take bonuses every turn because of that, free tutors and cannon fires and free bodies. So there are 2 issues: 1) Delete the substeps for example make the pirate quest play 8 pirates: reward Rokara (and that still is broken btw) and 2)Lower the power level of the rewards, they can't be infinite in my opinion for example make the Jaguernaut last 5 turns, same as the rest of the rewards so that the other player has a chance to outlast them
I was never very high on ladder. I think my best was like rank 16 around the time of naxramus. But I actually enjoyed playing against the crystal cave quest. Imo it had more counterplay than the mage quest. You could out trade the minions, rush face, or play defensive until the rogue is out of minions. Whereas if the mage just sits there and stall all game and clear (which they could do basically endlessly, thanks double iceblock into frost armor, into endless fireballs) and then they just play their card and win. That's just my experience tho
Weird how hearthstone's questlines made the game uninteractive and took focus away from the board and trading when Runeterra is the most combat/board oriented TCG going save for maybe pokemon yet it also has questlines baked right into the heart of the game in the form of champion level ups.
Quests have been a problem two out of three times in my opinion. The ones in uldum honestly felt fair and they weren’t at the forefront of the meta but we’re still playable. The ungro ones were either too slow or broke the game, and the storm wind quests mostly break the game. They can be fun, but most of the time they over dominate the meta and I will stand my ground that the storm wind quests should be rotated earlier to really remove so many OTK strategies and Agrro strategies from the next meta. You want the game to be more tempo and board based? Remove the quests from standard.
Coming back to hearthstone after not playing since frozen throne and seeing these quest lines makes games feel like we’re just staring at our own hands shuffling through our dumb op decks and not even looking at the board or considering what the opponent is playing. Doesn’t feel like a back and forth anymore, feels like a mad rush to see who can draw their win condition first
If I think about what the decks were that I hated the most to play against in the last 3 months it literally only were decks that involved quests. Pirate Warrior, Quest Huter, Quest Mage, Quest Warlock... they were all so unfun to play against. No other decks even came close imo
I recently started playing Hearthstone again after 5 years and I remember my very last matchup being against a rogue playing The Caverns Below quest. I left considering the game being broken and too easy.
My favorite class is Priest, but because it’s so slow I run a quest hunter with a bunch of low cost spell generating minions. I also have the legendary that makes my spells poison so I don’t have to deal with big cards. I have turns where I rip 20 health out of classes who would definitely win if I didn’t have my quest.
Great video, though I took issue with one part. "You just have to print the quest and it creates an archetype." I understand what was meant by this phrase, but its a little bit incorrect. No archetype exists without support. Think back to the reborn questline in Uldum, because not enough reborn cards were created for Paladin, the quest failed to be meaningful. Like with any archetype, there need to be cards to support a quest. What I think Quests are really good at, is recycling archetypes. A quest is a great way to add a last touch to a struggling archetype or create one that had all the support needed, but no payoff. This can be seen with the Caverns Below, Rogue already had all the things needed to support that kind of playstyle, Caverns Below just acted as the payoff to make players use all those elements. The other thing quests are great at, is being flashy and obvious. If there is an archetype or playstyle they want to push that is not seeing a lot of love right now. A quest is a really easy way to push that archetype into the limelight. This can be seen pretty well with Burgle Rogue in Uldum. Quests are attention grabbers and any player can look at a quest and now how to build the deck. A quest effectively acts as a blueprint to building a deck, not entirely, but it tells a player the types of cards they should have.
@@Rarran you were able to be critical without being toxic. I hate the quests and I know you’ve had your own anger about them, but in this video you put forward a well thought out and articulated summation of why they are bad for the game. We all want a healthy hs experience obviously and videos like this are a real positive influence for the community and hs is general. Thank you very much and wishing you continued success. Has great to see your channel grow sine the ‘something has to change’ video at the start of the year. So happy for you!!
some quest are actually balanced and well designed (at least in my opinion)like the thief rogue and the attack warrior quest(the one that give you summon 4/3 hero power that refresh every time your hero attack its not about the concept,its about the idea and execution
Hunter Questline is too broken imo. 6 spells that deal dmg for a bunch of cool stuff. +Bombs, curses and bleed ALL count as dmg spells, so it can get even faster.
@@deusexmangaka6994 Bombs from the enemy that are shuffled into your deck. When they explode on you while having the questline, you get a charge, so its easier for you to complete it. This is the same with curses and bleed effects that trigger at the start of your turn.
I feel like quest lines are so broken is because devs underestimate how fast they can be completed. When mage has a bunch of 1 and 0 cost cards to complete their quest then yeah its gonna be a pain to play against. Also I think savior of uldum had the most balanced quest because they all gave cool rewards but weren't so overwhelmingly powerful.
If the questlines can‘t get finished before turn 8 at earliest they may would be ok. To be honest when they said questlines coming I thaught of something slow like C‘Thun. But T5 or 6 is a huge problem. The rewards are too good for such a early state of the game. There should be a max. damage for hunter per turn and may they could give warrior two of the three rewards per random similar to Dr. Boom Hero. Would be easier to stand a chance against.
Watching more than you play? I think you meant yugioh. OK, that was a joke, but yeah, questlines basically give you the reward on curve + give you game changing rewards, things that if you're not playing yourself, you just are not winning.
I guess Blizzard kinda learned from their mistakes with Druid quests because the United in Stormwind Druid quest was...not good. I ran it for a while and you could seriously just play 1/1 taunt minions all day and completely shut it down. I honestly don't care for quests overall and I hope it's something they move away from.
"Hearthstone: The only game where you watch more of it than you play it." I'm dead, Rarran. 💀😂
I feel so called out
It's not particularly funny though..
Played any yu-gi-oh over the past 10 or so years? That's got to be the king of card games for watching more than you play.
So true
Actualy true i dont play it since kobolts and catacombs and the One after that i dont know how to write
Who could've though that an infinite reward was far more powerful than a one time reward. Surely not the developers
Tell me you don't get the point of the video without telling me.
I think what happened with the questlines is they significantly underestimated how quickly they could be completed in both standard and wild. Funnily enough I think they ended up making the same mistake in testing these that they did with Rastakhan's Rumble where they were testing what would be a fun way to play the set rather than optimal ways of playing the meta. It seemed like they weren't testing what would happen if someone went all in on completing the quests quickly.
They should hire some streamers and pros for testing. As it is obvious they don‘t have any idea how the main playerbase is gonna play and how they use or abuse cards.
@@diedeko2232 they do that already. Chakki and Gallon are former pro players and they're just two more public facing examples
I remember Trump pulling out an illegal list to show how absurd the mage quest was and demolishing everything with it in the test streams lol
Edit: illegal being it ran less than 10 cards from the new set
No. Some effects should have never been a thing like Tamsin. Transferring fatigue is ridiculous for warlock who is known to draw out their deck.
@@adamn7777
Mm
Mark Rosewater had already proved two times, that too much consistency is bad for card games.
He designed a cycle of cards that were supposed to start in your opening hand, their power level was lower and you started with one less card to compensate. Playtesters hated it and the design never saw the light of day... in its original form. They created some "companion" creatures like 20 years later, in Ikoria, they were just that, except their power level wasn't lower and you started with the usual 7 cards in hand, the tradeoff was that you had to build your deck a specific way. It's one of the most hated mechanics, they all got erratad to cost 3 more.
Yes pretty much that. The fact you can get something like a Time Bomb make players feel really punished for something they can't do nothing. But we already know Hearthstone Team does not learn with mistakes from others.
yeah passively starting with more resources even if that resource isn't that great is good. I'l admit i underestimated companions, and im glad they nerfed it.
2 times? Maro himself is consistently the source of so many banned cards. The guy writes nice design articles but goes against his writings very often.
The biggest issue with questlines is that they can be completed way too early in the game and once completed you can't do anything to stop your opponent from outright murdering you on turn 6-7.
I feel like all quest lines should just have strong one time use minions or spells as rewards. Quests should be something you just have going on in the background that you complete at some point in the game and get a cool thing to play afterwards. Nt something you are forced to then build an entire deck around. It's just not as fun as it makes the entire game too linear and repetitive.
Things like The last Kaleidosaur or the current Druid quest are great examples of that. Things you can just complete eventually during play and then you get a big fun minion to play at the end that csn swing a game back in your favour but had no real lasting impact on the game beyond its summon.
@@Noobie2k7 Not just questlines. I think Hearthstone''s biggest problem is its card design philosophy, sure, let's make completely broken cards, see how it ruins the game for everyone, not do anything about it and then make a completely pointless "balance change" that either does absolutely nothing or nerfs them to the ground just to make the player base shut up about it.
Cards shouldn't be so broken that they instantly win you the game without you been able to do something about it, that's frustrating to play and not fun at all. Just like on Journey to the
Sunken City they introduced a minion that can counter your opponent's next play I'd like to see more minions like this,, but also counter spells, but not just simple counters, like you negate a spells effect, but you have to sacrifice 10 life or armor.
The quests have always been a problem. The fact that there's absolutely no way to counter a quest other than beating their face in before they complete the quest completely soured me on them.
Oh but there is one counter to ALL Quests... Go first and have Paladin "Yogg" Secret in opener lol
Right now none of the quest lines see competitive play. So maybe, just maybe they aren’t broken.
@@unknownchipmagnet3510 if you see a paladin go first with a secret and you don't coin + quest you deserve to lose
@@unknownchipmagnet3510 its 10% luck every body Know yog Secret and they playing coin
@@jordanlutz8307 Questlock, Quest Rogue, Quest Hunter, Quest Warrior, and Quest Shaman all beg to differ.
Dunno if anyone remembers Wild Ranked when United in Stormwind released, but it was a clucking dystopia. The meta warped around Demon Seed to the point where you were either playing a version of Questline Warlock or one of its direct counters. Nothing in between. Titans of Wild Ranked that had been viable for years like Odd Paladin, Secret Mage and Reno Priest were gutted out of ladder all it once. The Questline being able to be completed so fast that you could actually drop Tamsin on curve put a hard cap on the amount of turns any game involving the deck could have. It came to the point where they had to *ban* it in Wild, along with the changes to it in Standard. And Wild is *supposed* to be a higher power format. Safe to say, it was the deep end of how bad it could go when making these kinds of cards.
Even to this day, the Hunter and Warrior Questlines and The Caverns Below still see play on ladder. And even though the Wild Meta is much healthier today, it's still a testament to just how much power the consistency of these Questlines can bring, should they grow out of control.
"Still see play"? These 3 quests take up, like, 75% of the diamond+ Wild meta
Interesting. Where'd you get those numbers? They're good decks, yeah. The Hunter one is even Tier 1. But there's also stuff like Mecha'thun Warlock and Aggro Priest running around, now. Maybe your own anecdotal experience shows a lot of match-ups against those Quests, in which case that is unfortunate. But looking at the bigger picture? The Quests aren't the only powerful forces around now.
@@s.dalner7245 well, I made them up; it's just my experience. Maybe youre right and Im unlucky, but it feels like they still dominate the meta, with the exception of an occasional warlock or aggro priest
They're definitely still out there, running around and cashing in wins, no doubt. And I do understand if people still find them as frustrating to play against, and that they think the meta would be healthier with them gone.
I tend to feel the same way, at least with the Questlines. The Un'goro and Dalaran ones were of better caliber, I believe.
Is wild better now? Do wild games go past turn 10?
Great perspective on quests through the years! I have such fond memories of the Kibler galvadon song
UiS as an expansion was a mistake
A flaw about questlines is that they were not extreme enough. You didn't have to fully commit to them and they provide only a moderate advantage. They were not as risky as likely intended. What they should have done is force the player to build the entire deck around one card with the payoff of basically a guaranteed win somehow. It's not necessarily overpowered because they can easily be countered by offense based decks and provide much more tension during a game.
🤡🔥⛪️🇸🇪
Honestly coming from MTG a good card to print would be something like "Spirit of the Labyrinth" which is a creature that doesn't allow more than one card drawn per turn
Bro i havent played HS in years but watching that quest rogue with Patches fucking hurts me - PTSD my guy
Searching for new ideas, the dev team settled on adding duels mechanics to hearthstone from United in Stormwind onward. The scamstone result has driven players away
I think rogues questline was the most balanced and fair
I agree. I also think Demon Hunter had a somewhat balanced one (ive never played against it too much).
Stealthed 9/7 is dumb. The new 1/3 is even dumber. Sure they play for board etc. etc. blah blah. It's still stupid uninteractive bullshit like the rest of the questlines.
@@BigFatCock0 yes hunter go brrrrrrrrrr
@@BigFatCock0 Quite frankly, you're a bad player if you can't deal with those questline rouge decks. They're really bad against good players.
@@djsanders4813 You don't think it depends on what type of decks you play? Just a little?
To add to what you said, I feel like a good quest(line) consists of three things:
a) Slow progress. A quest that is completable consistently by turn 4-6 will propably become a problem, depending on the reward, because it speeds up games.
b) A good reward. Sth that really shifts the game, because you were able to finish the quest and get a good reward, that swings in your favour, as long as there still is counterplay (I mean the cavern below minions couldnt even be silenced to be back at 1/1s).
c) It shouldnt force you play in a very suboptimal way. Again caverns below. The quest wouldnt have been so horrible if you didnt need to sacrifice your whole deck to complete it. You played things like Stonetusk Boar and Youthful Brewmasters which are just bad minions in a vacuum, because they dont bring anything like tempo or value to the table on its own, and in order to get the quest reward you needed to fill your whole deck with fire flys and bounce effects and boars. In my opinion a good deck would just require you to build your deck like 80-90% optimaly and the rest is quest sacrifice so you are at a disadvantage while going on the quest but get the tempo/value back as soon as you finish it.
I think part of why Paladin Silver Hand Recruit quest line isn't awful is because
1) It synergizes with one specific thing: Silver Hand Recruits. Blizzard can keep its power in check much better compared to Mage quest which synergizes with any damaging spell, Rogue which benefits from any bounce/token generating effect, etc.
And 2) the quest forces you away from synergizing with the quest. There are very few 1 cost cards that generate or benefit Recruits, so once you get the payoff, you can't have many cards in your deck which will make your Recruit synergy much stronger. Compare to Mage quest where the spells which activate the quest also benefit from its spell damage boost, meaning that all the cards which push you to quest completion can also benefit from quest completion.
Any questline that gets progressed by "doing things you would already want to be doing" is terrible design.
Time warp was bullshit (OTK card). Many quests have introduced loads of eternal value without being particularly polarizing, since they still allowed equally slow decks to at least try. Chrystal core was a problem. The demon seed even worse. Sorcerers gambit would have been an amazing design if ignite didn't allow mage to just puke out their cards without thinking. Juggernaut has too much high roll potential. Otherwise no generation of quests were really a mistake. When I think of it. UiS mostly just had WAAAY too much OTK support and infinite damage from hand.
Yeah druid and rouge are the ones without inf shit and there for i like them *kill the priest quest plz bli control is so unplayebel with its mere exsistens *
Thanks for this video, really like how you went back and compared the older quests as well. I mainly play Hunter, so I hope it will be good next set, but I don’t want another rock, paper, scissors situation, like you said at the end. If it ends up being that then I may be saying goodbye to Hearthstone, at least until Questlines rotate.
“Watch more than you play.” 😂 Actually brought a tear to my eye.
Ngl this is the first one of your talking videos I think I've seen, but damn you do phenomenal
The saviors of uldum paladin quest was always strange to me. Like they made a quest that would never get more support. So as expansions came out, the quest just got weaker than it already was.
Weird, paladin has never had a good quest.
It's not just the quests, but also the Hero Cards. Permanent rewards that often greatly tilt the game in your favor over time.
guff
The Marsh Queen's flavour text is so great omg
5:22 Dude. Hidden Oasis, introduced _in the same set,_ gives you a 12-health heal and a 6/6 Taunt blocker. Imagine losing before you get to Turn 6 at minimum. Druid is the ultimate "call an ambulance, BUT NOT FOR ME" class.
The only 2 questlines that are Just good and not disgusting from UIS are druid and rogue, and it's simple why, because, they are bombs, that still interacts with your oponent. So yes, you've got the point. I would personally even compare those 8 and caverns with gen and baku, effect is too strong to be active in early and mid stage of game, but kinda OK at the end.
So your saying Paladin Questline is op? Lmao
@@jeremyryan9890 it's not fun top play against rogue and be killed by windfury stealth minions
Rogue's is very lame too. Stupid uninteractive wincon stealth + windfury and it will get stronger next expansion with the new sap like cards
Priests quest too
Rogue questline is disgusting. A sap that doesn't let you replay the minion. Disgusting.
lmao the "over all" thing was pretty funny.
What also pisses me off is that against some quests playing minions literally helps them progress the quest, making it a very frustraring experience.
Expert analysis friend! Really great video
Yea, they were. Not in terms of design but in terms of powerlevel. I hate what Stormwind did to both metas and the aftermath still hasn't been resolved...
I think there are so many things that were done wrong about questlines:
1) First, it's weird how so many of them reward continuous effects. Your examples of Caverns Below and Untapped Potential were perfect, they reward passive strong effects. And as we see such rewards completely change the gameplay, like if you have a passive treasure from Duels. It's fine to reward something like this but you have to be VERY careful with how easy you can get to them. Questline Hunter is just Raza Anduin Priest that you get earlier and easier. (why does it require only 6 damaging spells total?)
2) Another thing that I don't understand is why some of them supported already existing strong decks. Spell Mage was already good before Stormwind but then it got the questline (plus Ignite, which is another problem). Warrior's questline is insane addition to the Wild Pirate Warrior (still a big problem).
3) Also personally me and my friends dislike that the rewards have premium stats. Why these minions have to be 7/7 minimum? Not only they get an advantage in terms of gameplay but also you first have to deal with a big minion on board (yes, sometimes it's not easy even if they don't drop it straight up on turn 5).
Anyway, I think this was a good video about the issue. And as a Wild player it's insane how one expansion ruined so many things for me... Forged in the Barrens was strong but the Wild meta was interesting. Then Stormwind came out... 8 months later Questline Warrior and Hunter are still too strong imo. It's only a matter of time when they are going to become S tier decks again.
P.S. Btw seen a few comments and I gotta agree that I don't think it's that necessary for you to add random item pictures to go accompany your words. I like when you show cards, artworks, gameplay, etc. That's already enough to keep attention.
Quests allow the opponent to play the game by themselves. All I wanna do is summon minions and attack the enemy hero. They get destroyed every time, and the opponent completes their quest without playing any minions.
I got to the point where every time I ran into Warlock I just autoconceded. I'm bout to spend the whole game just trying to summon something and attack, but it's too late because I'm losing my opponent's health.
I refuse to make a deck I don't even want just so I don't lose.
This isn't fun.
Can you talk about how ridiculous it would be to play revolve around 8:06? You have a 3 mana 1/10 and a 5 mana 7/7!!
Hi there. I will preface that I don't play hearthstone (at least haven't in 6 yrs) but still found your (and especially this) videos an interesting watch. I like analyzing game design/balance in competitive pvp games and I think your use of "polarization" and subsequent explanation of the concept (using concrete examples) was really well done. Prior to this video, I have yet to see anyone else use the term when analyzing pvp games (besides when I talk to myself like friends don't exist), and I think the concept can be very beneficial when analyzing not just match ups (like in your video), but also aspects like cheese/jank and future direction of a game.
sorry for the word of text and have a nice day. :)
2030: United in Stormwind was so good, see what we get now
that first line of the video hit so home...
I’ve watched like 100 of your vids at this point and I literally just noticed the Kripp resemblance now
GALVADON! THE LAST KALEIDOSAUR! HE'S GOT WINDFURY AND A WHOLE LOT MORE!
The past few weeks we were playing Druidstone and sometimes Hunterstone.
Ahh, Jungle Giants. I play this card in Wild since its release and it is possible, with luck, to drop Barnabus with the 7th mana crystal due to Oaken Summons into Mukla/Cursed Disciple, Bloom and Cairne.
Paladin is the only class with 3 Quests who never managed a good or "succsessfull" status.
Warrior with Fire Plume/ Pirate
Shaman with Battlecry
Hunter with Questline
Rogue with Crystal Core
Druid with untapped Potential
Mage with Questline(even though I currently see alot of Uldum Quest in wild)
Priest with Deathrattle
Warlock with Demon Seed
Uldumquest Heropower from Paladin is dope though. IMO
This is where a sideboard in hearthstone could really do wonders.
I don't think they were a mistake, I just think they were powercrept too hard like the rest of the game. Early quests didn't usually finish fast and didn't guarantee you the win when you finished them, they were limiting how you play and build to have an advantage when you finish. Now (or before I quit) it is about throwing everything away to finish the quest so you can win before your opponent finishes their quest and wins
Yeah. Hearthstone has been a game of "who can do their broken thing first?" for quite some time at this point...
@@shieldphaser Ayy you're right.. Sadge :( I don't think they can save it either because even if they make balanced expansions most players won't give it another chance and wild will still be dead
@@mitchelrowe6915 making balanced expansions would mean weaker expansions, which means less cardpack purchases, so that's not going to happen.
They dug their own grave though. Hearthstone's core means of interaction with the opponent is board control. Interaction is the antithesis of consistency because interaction allows your opponent to disrupt you, and those who make decks to win want consistency. Therefore, blizzard providing so many means to win that didn't rely on board control effectively killed interaction, putting us in the current situation.
@@shieldphaser Spot on mate o couldn't agree more 👍
Of all the quests, there have only ever been a few that I really took exception to. Two are questlines. Defend the Dwarven District and Raid the docks. The other one I really hate playing against is Obelisk's eye, with it's incredible consistency and the ability to take a card and make it huge, while having extreme survivability in the early game just bothers me. I also dislike the priest questline, but that's more a product of my decks are intended to fight the long haul,which that deck kills me for doing
00:02 i litterally stopped hearthstone weeks ago but still watch video
Agreed, I am DREADING quest hunter with these new cards
Before I watch this videos, YES THEY WERE A MISTAKE, in fact the biggest mistake yet. You shouldn't have your infinite value wincon every time at the start of every game and take bonuses every turn because of that, free tutors and cannon fires and free bodies. So there are 2 issues: 1) Delete the substeps for example make the pirate quest play 8 pirates: reward Rokara (and that still is broken btw) and 2)Lower the power level of the rewards, they can't be infinite in my opinion for example make the Jaguernaut last 5 turns, same as the rest of the rewards so that the other player has a chance to outlast them
I was never very high on ladder. I think my best was like rank 16 around the time of naxramus. But I actually enjoyed playing against the crystal cave quest. Imo it had more counterplay than the mage quest. You could out trade the minions, rush face, or play defensive until the rogue is out of minions. Whereas if the mage just sits there and stall all game and clear (which they could do basically endlessly, thanks double iceblock into frost armor, into endless fireballs) and then they just play their card and win. That's just my experience tho
God I remember dying to one mana 5-5 charge boars way too many times lol
Your videos look fantastic!
Great editing
Hey rarran keep up the content love the vids
Weird how hearthstone's questlines made the game uninteractive and took focus away from the board and trading when Runeterra is the most combat/board oriented TCG going save for maybe pokemon yet it also has questlines baked right into the heart of the game in the form of champion level ups.
Quests have been a problem two out of three times in my opinion. The ones in uldum honestly felt fair and they weren’t at the forefront of the meta but we’re still playable. The ungro ones were either too slow or broke the game, and the storm wind quests mostly break the game. They can be fun, but most of the time they over dominate the meta and I will stand my ground that the storm wind quests should be rotated earlier to really remove so many OTK strategies and Agrro strategies from the next meta. You want the game to be more tempo and board based? Remove the quests from standard.
I agree, never found the quests all that fun anyway
I felt so targeted by that intro line LMAO
I made the mage quest line even more broken by using potion of illusion. I could get, with luck, permanent +12 spell damage.
Coming back to hearthstone after not playing since frozen throne and seeing these quest lines makes games feel like we’re just staring at our own hands shuffling through our dumb op decks and not even looking at the board or considering what the opponent is playing. Doesn’t feel like a back and forth anymore, feels like a mad rush to see who can draw their win condition first
If I think about what the decks were that I hated the most to play against in the last 3 months it literally only were decks that involved quests. Pirate Warrior, Quest Huter, Quest Mage, Quest Warlock... they were all so unfun to play against. No other decks even came close imo
That’s not how time warp was used with SA. You dropped SA MR the turn after you played it.
I recently started playing Hearthstone again after 5 years and I remember my very last matchup being against a rogue playing The Caverns Below quest. I left considering the game being broken and too easy.
I fought a wild rogue that finished the quest turn 2…
@@own492 Guess this wasn't a quest, but more like a "walk in the neighborhood".
Awesome editing as always rarran keep it up
I have both in jade decks .my favorite play is hero power , coin Shudderwock
Intro is too true 😂
nice vid ty rarran
I think one problem with quests is they always start in your hand, so it can lead to a very linear gameplay strategy.
My favorite class is Priest, but because it’s so slow I run a quest hunter with a bunch of low cost spell generating minions. I also have the legendary that makes my spells poison so I don’t have to deal with big cards. I have turns where I rip 20 health out of classes who would definitely win if I didn’t have my quest.
I do the same shit with Hunter Quest lol
Pain
Hearthstone, the game I watch more than I actually play
I have never played HS or warcraft. I'm not familiar with the lore or the mechanics but here I am.
I find it super interesting tho
Demon Seed got nerf but did not get buff needed to keep it balanced.
if going take 8 damage to finish it then it needs 4 to 5 life steals to offset.
Great video, though I took issue with one part. "You just have to print the quest and it creates an archetype." I understand what was meant by this phrase, but its a little bit incorrect. No archetype exists without support. Think back to the reborn questline in Uldum, because not enough reborn cards were created for Paladin, the quest failed to be meaningful.
Like with any archetype, there need to be cards to support a quest. What I think Quests are really good at, is recycling archetypes. A quest is a great way to add a last touch to a struggling archetype or create one that had all the support needed, but no payoff. This can be seen with the Caverns Below, Rogue already had all the things needed to support that kind of playstyle, Caverns Below just acted as the payoff to make players use all those elements.
The other thing quests are great at, is being flashy and obvious. If there is an archetype or playstyle they want to push that is not seeing a lot of love right now. A quest is a really easy way to push that archetype into the limelight. This can be seen pretty well with Burgle Rogue in Uldum. Quests are attention grabbers and any player can look at a quest and now how to build the deck. A quest effectively acts as a blueprint to building a deck, not entirely, but it tells a player the types of cards they should have.
Is there anyway to destroy an active quest? I think a 4/5 cost neutral card that does that night balance most of them
Best video you’ve ever done.
can i ask why you think that? i appreciate tho!
@@Rarran you were able to be critical without being toxic. I hate the quests and I know you’ve had your own anger about them, but in this video you put forward a well thought out and articulated summation of why they are bad for the game. We all want a healthy hs experience obviously and videos like this are a real positive influence for the community and hs is general. Thank you very much and wishing you continued success. Has great to see your channel grow sine the ‘something has to change’ video at the start of the year. So happy for you!!
And thanks to the quest lines, wild is now: can you beat quest hunter and pirates or do you want to stop playing it?
Absolutely yes United in stormwind will be stepping stone for solitaire in history
I love the editing of the video !
Thanks 😁
some quest are actually balanced and well designed (at least in my opinion)like the thief rogue and the attack warrior quest(the one that give you summon 4/3 hero power that refresh every time your hero attack
its not about the concept,its about the idea and execution
Storm wind has 2/10 in good quest rouge and druid
Hunter Questline is too broken imo. 6 spells that deal dmg for a bunch of cool stuff.
+Bombs, curses and bleed ALL count as dmg spells, so it can get even faster.
What? Goblin Bomb isn’t a spell, and hunter doesn’t have Curses or Garrotes
@@deusexmangaka6994 Bombs from the enemy that are shuffled into your deck. When they explode on you while having the questline, you get a charge, so its easier for you to complete it. This is the same with curses and bleed effects that trigger at the start of your turn.
The Hunter one was definitely a mistake. Spell only Hunter decks shouldn't exist.
What's the ongoing effect of Rogue Questline? What's the ongoing effect of Druid Questline?
there is a reason why I didn't mention them...
YES I CAN NOT WIN VS THAT WHEN I DONT
I feel like quest lines are so broken is because devs underestimate how fast they can be completed. When mage has a bunch of 1 and 0 cost cards to complete their quest then yeah its gonna be a pain to play against. Also I think savior of uldum had the most balanced quest because they all gave cool rewards but weren't so overwhelmingly powerful.
0:00 I feel very called out, but it's not the only game! I watch TrackMania and I don't play it at all!
Well said,well said 👏👏
Why is shaggy in the thumbnail-
The only quest I enjoy playing is Priest as its more of a control archetype and the payoff takes a significant number of turns to complete.
I only clicked on this video because shaggy was on the thumb nail.
i also find it stupid how a questline is completed faster than a quest, they should just add more to the steps for completing them.
i think we will see the hunter quest line rotate early in the next 3 months cause it would be better than nerfing all cards around it
could you talk about some of the best side quests?
My problem with questlines are that they tell you how to build and play your deck.
It's straight up anti-creativity.
If the questlines can‘t get finished before turn 8 at earliest they may would be ok.
To be honest when they said questlines coming I thaught of something slow like C‘Thun.
But T5 or 6 is a huge problem. The rewards are too good for such a early state of the game.
There should be a max. damage for hunter per turn and may they could give warrior two of the three rewards per random similar to Dr. Boom Hero.
Would be easier to stand a chance against.
The time these shittheads went into wild was the best day in hearthstone history
Watching more than you play? I think you meant yugioh.
OK, that was a joke, but yeah, questlines basically give you the reward on curve + give you game changing rewards, things that if you're not playing yourself, you just are not winning.
Quest hunter is going to be a problem next expansion I can feel it.
Hey Rarran, I want to play some Wild for the first time seriously. What are good/fun decks for Paladin and Druid?
Sorry but I have no idea, I don’t play wild 😛
Aggro or Mechathun Druid, Even Paladin.
@@christos1zervas I play with Even Paladin now and really like it!
funny enough now can play rock paper scissors in hearthstone :P
Not really . But also depends on the quest
Guess who is here because our of 17 games ive faced 12 hunters
Poor rise to the occsasion :'(
i fucking love those random pictures in your video!
To answer the question before watching the video...yes...
I guess Blizzard kinda learned from their mistakes with Druid quests because the United in Stormwind Druid quest was...not good. I ran it for a while and you could seriously just play 1/1 taunt minions all day and completely shut it down.
I honestly don't care for quests overall and I hope it's something they move away from.
Questline hunter still takes only 6 spells to complete with busted effects in a deck that runs all spells
Sad!