I learned multi-pitch at the end of a trad course with an SPI guide in Ontario. We used the gri-gri off the anchor. I think the reason for this was that lowering was easier, our rope was thicker, and it fed naturally into hauling and rescue systems. Interestingly, we were taught to use ATCs for trad lead belaying, with the understanding that it reduced forces on the crappy limestone. I switched to a gri-gri for belaying in general after the course --- it felt safer to reduce the chance of dropping someone and I wasn't climbing such sketchy routes that I thought the marginal force differences would change whether a piece held or not. I live in BC now, and use a gri-gri for top and bottom belays. I still use thicker (9.4) ropes so it just feeds better. Folks are more familiar with a gri-gri too.
I came up before the Grigio. Just getting back to climbing the last year and took a lot of time to get comfortable with Grigri. Feel like the act first is a good thing having that dependence on the brake hand really built in.
The Grigri is awesome when guiding. You can put a prussic on the climbers line, the Grigri will mind it, and you can have a very quick hauling system to get them past a crux. It's also easy to reverse/lower and escape. ATC guide when climbing with friends. What to teach? Both but start with what they have the most experience with.
As a working SPI I focus on teaching clients how to top belay with whatever compatible device they own, which is almost always a Grigri. It's nice that you can lower someone with the Grigri without jumping through the hoops required to lower with an ATCg, and you can teach them the 3:1 or 3:1+1 haul as a neat self rescue tool. I also make a point to inform my students that when getting into bigger multipitch climbs an ATCg becomes a much more useful, if not requisite, tool for the day. I work in Kentucky and Ontario, Canada so Ryan is absolutely right that I have different preferences than I would if I were working on the west side of the USA. Only thing I really disagree with is the idea that learning how to belay with an ATC first is somehow safer or "builds better habits". It's like saying learning how to climb without a rope first is better, because it makes you fall less. Removing a margin of safety doesn't automatically force people to perform better. Devices don't make good belayers, good instructors do.
I teach for a major guide certification organization, and have found over the past few years my students are coming out of the gym environment, having a better understanding of the working of a GriGri. Personally, started using the EDELRID GigaJul Belay Device. I really like having a second brake assisted device, that you can rappel a double rope with. I normally do not teach ATC guide mode because of the extreme danger in lowering a person, a lot more complicated than a GriGri.
ATCg first to establish base line knowledge then gri-gri. It's like learning to shoot wit iron sights before optics or using a map and compass before jumping to GPS and apps.
I'm no SPI but as someone who go into climbing in the last year. I liked learning and getting comfortable with the ATC before moving to a caming or auto locking device. As you said I like the idea of getting comfortable with the "basics" and understanding how and when to use these tools.
I learned how to belay from above during a 5 day trad course this past summer from an SPI guide. They only taught us how to use the Grigri, reasoning being that there’s more nuance with the atc in guide mode than the grigri and we were focusing mostly on leading/gear placement so there was not enough time to cover both. I thought it was interesting when you said that the grigri has more nuance than the atc, this difference in opinion could stem from the guide becoming SPI certified within the last 3 or 4 years. Also along the lines of location, this was at Devil’s Lake in Wisconsin which is almost entirely single pitch with top access to almost all routes by hiking. Very interesting talking point!
In my completely non-professional experience the nuance just comes from making sure everything is oriented in a way that it’s not going to get impeded by the rest of the anchor/get in the way of the anchor; more “foolproof” like he said. Less likely to have your follower up and climbing the route and realize something needs readjusting
I think of it similar to teaching compass nav, then GPS, then phone apps (CalTopo etc). The complexity and reliance on technology comes with experience after learning basic techniques. Teach the münter and tube belay methods first. Using a gri gri or gi gi comes later with experience and becomes more intuitive once basic methods have been mastered.
So basically, as the saying goes, "Use the right tool for the right job at the right place and the right time." And leave yourself plenty of options and know how to use them. This is why it's so important to get the proper training and practice those skills. As a side note, I must be a freak of nature, I've never had issues with my elbows and belaying with a plate device. I'm starting to think it's just an overused climbing inside joke!
Frankly, unless you’re also teaching people knot block/tag line rappels, you should teach the ATC guide first, because getting down safely is more important than going up, and you don’t always have a walk off. I prefer to use a grigri most of the time, but I have a separate ATC guide and locker that lives with each harness I own full time because they are cheap and able to do everything well with minimum equipment. I almost exclusively use sterling 9.8mm ropes and use a bd ATC guide. Having used a reverso, I’m pretty sure I would want a skinnier rope or a different device if I had a 9.8 and a reverso, so I definitely agree with the comments about matching the rope to the device.
On the crag in recent years, I tend to use the GriGri only because I bought one; otherwise, I would always use the ATC. When climbing in the Dolomites/Alps, 90% of the time I still use the Clove Hitch! And without a doubt, never the GriGri, because we always climb with two half ropes. When we climb as a group of three, I use the ATC, but when it's just two, the Clove Hitch, in my opinion, forces you to be more present and focused. Why the Clove Hitch? 1. Less complexity, less danger 2. Faster transitions when alternating as the lead climber 3. Greater sensitivity to the rope in your hands 4. More presence and focus overall. "If I were a guide or climbing with someone less skilled than me, I would never use it. In that case, I would opt for the GriGri and a single rope. :-)"
I find that my grigri doesn't lock up as easily, like when I take slack it slips back and i get annoyed lol. ATC in guide mode is super solid imo, but do wear my elbows (fat rope lol). Base off your recommendation I actually tried my grigri+ in top rope mode and it's the best. Also I don't like grigri from top if it isn't hanging in the air. ATC can belay 2 followers so that's something too. Basically my opinion, causal climbin in socal and red rocks, is the same as yours lol. I always carry both, but I like atc in guide mode, and grigri for lead belaying
Very broadly speaking, from an engineering standpoint, the elegance, simplicity, and versatility of the atc is hard to overstate. The grigri, while a wonderful and welcome invention, is essentially a niche device. And once you get into the realms of multipitch, multiple ropes and ice the grigri is simply not needed.
I learned multi-pitch at the end of a trad course with an SPI guide in Ontario. We used the gri-gri off the anchor. I think the reason for this was that lowering was easier, our rope was thicker, and it fed naturally into hauling and rescue systems. Interestingly, we were taught to use ATCs for trad lead belaying, with the understanding that it reduced forces on the crappy limestone. I switched to a gri-gri for belaying in general after the course --- it felt safer to reduce the chance of dropping someone and I wasn't climbing such sketchy routes that I thought the marginal force differences would change whether a piece held or not.
I live in BC now, and use a gri-gri for top and bottom belays. I still use thicker (9.4) ropes so it just feeds better. Folks are more familiar with a gri-gri too.
I came up before the Grigio. Just getting back to climbing the last year and took a lot of time to get comfortable with Grigri. Feel like the act first is a good thing having that dependence on the brake hand really built in.
The Grigri is awesome when guiding. You can put a prussic on the climbers line, the Grigri will mind it, and you can have a very quick hauling system to get them past a crux. It's also easy to reverse/lower and escape. ATC guide when climbing with friends.
What to teach? Both but start with what they have the most experience with.
fear a guy who practice 1000 times the same kick rather of the guy who knows 1000 differents kicks
As a working SPI I focus on teaching clients how to top belay with whatever compatible device they own, which is almost always a Grigri. It's nice that you can lower someone with the Grigri without jumping through the hoops required to lower with an ATCg, and you can teach them the 3:1 or 3:1+1 haul as a neat self rescue tool. I also make a point to inform my students that when getting into bigger multipitch climbs an ATCg becomes a much more useful, if not requisite, tool for the day. I work in Kentucky and Ontario, Canada so Ryan is absolutely right that I have different preferences than I would if I were working on the west side of the USA.
Only thing I really disagree with is the idea that learning how to belay with an ATC first is somehow safer or "builds better habits". It's like saying learning how to climb without a rope first is better, because it makes you fall less. Removing a margin of safety doesn't automatically force people to perform better. Devices don't make good belayers, good instructors do.
I teach for a major guide certification organization, and have found over the past few years my students are coming out of the gym environment, having a better understanding of the working of a GriGri. Personally, started using the EDELRID GigaJul Belay Device. I really like having a second brake assisted device, that you can rappel a double rope with. I normally do not teach ATC guide mode because of the extreme danger in lowering a person, a lot more complicated than a GriGri.
ATCg first to establish base line knowledge then gri-gri. It's like learning to shoot wit iron sights before optics or using a map and compass before jumping to GPS and apps.
I'm no SPI but as someone who go into climbing in the last year. I liked learning and getting comfortable with the ATC before moving to a caming or auto locking device. As you said I like the idea of getting comfortable with the "basics" and understanding how and when to use these tools.
It's like learning how to drive without your seatbelt before using your seatbelt! Makes you a better driver!
I learned how to belay from above during a 5 day trad course this past summer from an SPI guide. They only taught us how to use the Grigri, reasoning being that there’s more nuance with the atc in guide mode than the grigri and we were focusing mostly on leading/gear placement so there was not enough time to cover both. I thought it was interesting when you said that the grigri has more nuance than the atc, this difference in opinion could stem from the guide becoming SPI certified within the last 3 or 4 years. Also along the lines of location, this was at Devil’s Lake in Wisconsin which is almost entirely single pitch with top access to almost all routes by hiking. Very interesting talking point!
Perhaps it is the lowering with the ATC that is more nuanced?
In my completely non-professional experience the nuance just comes from making sure everything is oriented in a way that it’s not going to get impeded by the rest of the anchor/get in the way of the anchor; more “foolproof” like he said. Less likely to have your follower up and climbing the route and realize something needs readjusting
I learned on an ATC, but my friends and I all use grigris for 2 man teams.
I think of it similar to teaching compass nav, then GPS, then phone apps (CalTopo etc). The complexity and reliance on technology comes with experience after learning basic techniques. Teach the münter and tube belay methods first. Using a gri gri or gi gi comes later with experience and becomes more intuitive once basic methods have been mastered.
At 8:30 the two videos both with you talking are really hard to understand.
But other than that fantastic talking point.
ATC only? Alpine rock adventures
ATC + Gri Gri? Most my multi pitch on rock
Gri Gri Only? Familiar partner and bolted anchors on rock multi
So basically, as the saying goes, "Use the right tool for the right job at the right place and the right time." And leave yourself plenty of options and know how to use them. This is why it's so important to get the proper training and practice those skills.
As a side note, I must be a freak of nature, I've never had issues with my elbows and belaying with a plate device. I'm starting to think it's just an overused climbing inside joke!
With regard to your second paragraph, my feelings exactly.
Frankly, unless you’re also teaching people knot block/tag line rappels, you should teach the ATC guide first, because getting down safely is more important than going up, and you don’t always have a walk off.
I prefer to use a grigri most of the time, but I have a separate ATC guide and locker that lives with each harness I own full time because they are cheap and able to do everything well with minimum equipment.
I almost exclusively use sterling 9.8mm ropes and use a bd ATC guide. Having used a reverso, I’m pretty sure I would want a skinnier rope or a different device if I had a 9.8 and a reverso, so I definitely agree with the comments about matching the rope to the device.
On the crag in recent years, I tend to use the GriGri only because I bought one; otherwise, I would always use the ATC. When climbing in the Dolomites/Alps, 90% of the time I still use the Clove Hitch! And without a doubt, never the GriGri, because we always climb with two half ropes. When we climb as a group of three, I use the ATC, but when it's just two, the Clove Hitch, in my opinion, forces you to be more present and focused. Why the Clove Hitch?
1. Less complexity, less danger
2. Faster transitions when alternating as the lead climber
3. Greater sensitivity to the rope in your hands
4. More presence and focus overall.
"If I were a guide or climbing with someone less skilled than me, I would never use it. In that case, I would opt for the GriGri and a single rope. :-)"
I find that my grigri doesn't lock up as easily, like when I take slack it slips back and i get annoyed lol. ATC in guide mode is super solid imo, but do wear my elbows (fat rope lol). Base off your recommendation I actually tried my grigri+ in top rope mode and it's the best. Also I don't like grigri from top if it isn't hanging in the air. ATC can belay 2 followers so that's something too.
Basically my opinion, causal climbin in socal and red rocks, is the same as yours lol. I always carry both, but I like atc in guide mode, and grigri for lead belaying
Very broadly speaking, from an engineering standpoint, the elegance, simplicity, and versatility of the atc is hard to overstate. The grigri, while a wonderful and welcome invention, is essentially a niche device. And once you get into the realms of multipitch, multiple ropes and ice the grigri is simply not needed.
You will definitely drop your Gri-Gri at some point. You'll need to know how to use the ATC Guide. Which you should have for the rappel.
From experience you will also drop your reverso or atc and should know how to use a munter
Overlapping audio at 8:40 threw me for a loop lol but great vid and thoughts!
I climb with a gri gri but my wife and I always have an atc and a prusik on our harnesses
Big fan of the ATC.