I talk about who has died from buckshot failing to kill a bear, as well as, why some hardcast lead buckshot (00 or larger) can be used for bear defense.
'The biggest surprise came when we skinned him, for there, just under the hide, were the big No. 00 buckshot. Each was wrapped in a wad of fur as large as a quarter and several hadn't penetrated the hide at all. Only a few had even drawn blood; they were merely stuck in a layer of fat. Nearly every one of the 36 pellets fired were found on or in the bear, showing how steady Doc's aim had been. These buckshot loads consistently plowed through 100-pound wolves; yet the grizzly hadn't been hurt at all. Both Doc's and my opinion of buckshot as a grizzly load tumbled, though I'm still sure it would do the job at a very close range.' The first shot was 50 feet is (16.7 yards) the other shots were from farther away as the bear was walking away. Source: “The Outdoor Life Bear Book” 'In a more serious tone, Dick said, “Bob, I wonder how much pressure it would take to actually kill this bear - how much muscle pressure it would take.” “I don't have any idea. Probably quite a bit.” “I want to try it.” “What?” “I want to see how much pressure it would take,” replied Dick. “Sort of make my own penetration test.”” He continued, “I don’t want to ruin the hide, so I’ll take a jab at her where we’ve already skinned, just to see what it would take.” Dick knelt down and pulled back the hide to expose the skinned front shoulder. Knife poised, Dick stuck the bear in the shoulder and watched it sink easily into the flesh. This surprised both the guide and the game official. They hadn’t realized this animal was so easily penetrable. A look of satisfaction crossed Dick’s face after the look of surprise left. He felt better. He’d evened up the score a bit.' Source: “Grizzly Attack in Colorado: The Ed Wiseman Story”
you might want to study a bit more because you're showing stuff from black powder days, a 3 inch shell with a 1 oz slug with modern powder will down a grizzly in one shot in the dead center of the skull. see black powder is 3x weaker than smokeless and it wasn't as dense so the delivery of energy was far less than today.
@@xaagripha7326 At the top of the comment you replied to is an account of modern 00 buckshot loads not being effective at a distance 50 feet 16.7 yards. Likewise, here is another modern account using standard buckshot. After reading these accounts I personally tested and confirmed that standard 00 buck is not particularly effective on thick bone from a distance of 15 yards. (It's a different video on my channel). “A shotgun's effectiveness in stopping a charging bear is a highly controversial subject. 1 asked Sergeant Bob Brown of the Alaska Department of Public Safety to share some findings of a study he did. After the mauling of Cynthia Dusel-Bacon, his department provided a training program for the U.S. Geological Survey in California. Bob said, "I took skinned (not fleshed) brown bear skulls down there, and I placed these skulls on the firing line. We shot a 12-gauge shotgun at these skulls at varying distances to show penetration of 00 buckshot and slugs. "Shooting from 50 yards with 10 rounds (nine pellets per round), few, if any pellets, hit the skull. At 25 yards a few more pellets hit the skull, but none penetrated it. At 15 yards there was more penetration of the fleshy tissue, but not the skull material itself (it chipped one tooth and entered the tissue by the cheek). "If using buckshot or birdshot within 15 yards, it will penetrate a bear's skull. Shot has killed and will kill a bear; but I wouldn't recommend it because of the non-penetrating capabilities. "We put a slug in at 15 yards; and the slug definitely caved in the upper part of the skull. All the 12-gauge slugs we fired at 25 yards penetrated the skulls.” "The eight-foot bear that was hit by two trucks near Eagle River in 1976 did not die immediately. A passerby had a 20-gauge shotgun, and he shot the bear with two Brenneke* slugs from a distance of 20 feet (shooting from behind and above the animal). One slug passed through the neck and the other one hit the top of the skull, but it didn't penetrate (it chipped off a piece of the skull and put a crack in it). "You start shooting a shotgun at anything exceeding 25 yards with buckshot, and your pattern is so scattered it doesn't have any real effectiveness. We recommend using a slug. Accuracy is good up to a hundred yards with a slug.” ' Source: “Alaska Bear Tales” *Corrected spelling of Brenneke.
@xaagripha7326 I am in complete disagreement with your assertion. Bear skulls are inches thick at the center, like a ram’s. They are also sloping. Like nature’s armored vehicle. Which makes sense, they evolved to be kicked in the face by hooves; wolves have especial density at their forehead for the same reason. A bear’s forehead has a good chance of deflecting a bullet.
@@KH-rt3ef The skull is thick, but the bone is not thick enough to make much of a difference. If a bullet doesn't reach the brain that is usually because it hit at an angle that was poor or because it wasn't on the right path to begin with. I demonstrated in another video that it takes relatively little thick bone to stop buckshot pellets. The argument that bear skulls have evolved to be sloped in order to better resist kicks is not a good one. The biggest threat to bears from an evolutionary perspective is other bears. The same is true for wolves, so arguing that both have greater thickness at the forehead because of this is not really useful. I'm not saying that bullets can't be deflected, but rather it's not nearly as much of a deal as people think it is. If you are not totally convinced, I can give you a quote from a bear guide to further prove my point.
@@KH-rt3ef “This notion of the thickness of a bear's skull is well established but has no basis in fact. Actually the skull of the largest of these animals is not particularly massive. The bone at the forehead may be an eighth of an inch thick and will not deflect any highspeed big-game bullet, regardless of the angle at which it strikes." "The ordinary .22 Rimfire bullet easily penetrates a bear’s skull and goes into the brain. Grizzly bears have been killed with rifles of this caliber.” Source: “My lost wilderness : adventures of an Alaskan hunter and guide”, by Ralph Young
My skeptical ass with all the blow-hards.. Yeah, I am leaning toward agreement on your sentiments... Definitely not looking for friends.. Just landed here, somehow.. LOL. Fkn Rabbits..
My wife's uncle was hunting and lost his footing on a steep hill. As he slid he was almost perfectly presented in front of a black bear. He shot the bear in the skull, but the angle was wrong, and the 300 win mag just peeled the skin of the skull. He quickly jacked another round in, and the next shot went through the skull front and back. The skull was 3/4" thick. Like you said before, Cherry-picked data, still something to think about. I guarantee he never cycled a bolt action faster in his life. At the end of the day, I think he would have survived anyway. I have seen the hide, the bear was somewhat small, and the man is a quite large logger. Who knows.
Very interesting! In my other video with the polar bear thumbnail, I talk about how high velocity rounds (.300 Win Short mag), can fail to penetrate deeply even when the round hits flesh (not thick skull). What you said about him probably surviving anyway made me think about In "I Survived" episode where a black bear attacked a man and his wife in their home. The man was a big fella too, but he got pretty badly torn up. If I remember correctly, the doctors said that a smaller person probably would have died from such wounds.
You could interpret it like that. Or you could see it as a sign that larger magazines and a semi-auto action is a gift from god in a bad situation. As I explained in the one African dangerous game video, an animal that is still moving and attacking after receiving fatal damage, that is caused by biology. I would reserve judgements about supernatural cause and effect until everything else is ruled out.😉
I've been wondering about something, and I want to get other people's opinions on it. The question is why has society changed so that Americans are less friendly and have less of a sense of community? “People are jaded in this day and age." " People are not as friendly and neighborly as they were years ago. Society has drastically changed!” Woman, 46
@infogunvault6920 it's never been friendly unless you were a certain type of person and surrounded yourself with like persons. It's been exacerbated by the wealth disparity, and the influx of illegal immigration.
@infogunvault6920 Communications technology has enabled people to easily rely on themselves for information as opposed to wholly peers. There is little intellectual or economic incentives for loyalty, now. The general orthodoxy and doom of climate predictions made people fearful. Televised violence, and decades of crime and warfare. Humanity has been through a lot, for an entire adult generation’s life now. Farming community used to mean survival, but the skills and lifestyle have been forfeited. Competition creates the most value, now.
Greeting from Alaska. My personal choices are either an 18" barrel. iron sighted 12 gauge Mossberg 500 with hard cast Brenneke slugs, or a Marlin 18" barreled .45/70 with Buffalo-Bore 430grain hard cast. I'm usually by myself and feel comfortable with either
After long, painful experience, professional hunters of dangerous game (mostly in Africa) have unanimously settled on the idea that penetration is the most critical feature of effective ammo.
Entirely true! I've been reading about African game wardens and the weapons they use on elephants, and one of them was issued a .458 win mag. He was not extremely impressed with it. This was because the penetration wasn't excellent even with the solid (non-expanding) rounds they were using. He went out and bought a .375 H&H because it had better penetration in comparison.
Yeah, greatly disappointing. There's probably more incidents like that one that we just haven't heard about. I also remember a story about a guy walking into the woods never to be seen again. They found handgun and rifle rounds in a particularly troublesome bear, which that matched the missing guy's calibers. So they rightfully concluded the bear probably killed the guy years ago. If I remember correctly, the bear had some soft lead .38's in it's skull. I could probably find that story if you want to know more.
@@infogunvault6920 it’s not that surprising. Jim Cirillo wrote about shooting men in the head with 38s and having them deflect and the guy remaining in the fight
I always thought buckshot would be great for bear defense. But I’ve never hunted bears or had to even think about them growing up In Florida where their numbers were very low. But that has changed because now we have a lot of them and they get big here
I should put it like this, buckshot has the potential to be effective provided some kind of improvement is made to the projectiles used. Soft lead 00 is not ideal. I did a bone penetration test video where I demonstrated that at 15 yards, standard 00 buck has basically superficial penetration on thick bone. This matches up with a test another guy did way back with bear heads, he found that 00 buck at 15 yards would not penetrate a bear's skull.
I've heard that they make a kind of Taser round that fires from a regular shotgun or maybe a modified shotgun. I don't know the exact details. While I wouldn't expect a bear to be affected by a Taser in the way a person would, I think that kind of round might be equally effective as a hard rubber round at discouraging a bear from approaching people. If the goal is to drive away a nuisance bear and not self-defense against a bear attack, maybe those rounds would be worth trying. Ideally, I'd like for a Fish and Game officer to try that while fellow officers provide backup. That also absolves me of having to define a nuisance bear and take the legal risk of shooting a bear when I don't have a tag. I've heard that at close range, many birdshot or buckshot rounds act as if they are soft slugs. If they haven't really separated from the shot cup when they hit a bear, a deer, a person, or whatever, then the effect is more like that of a soft slug than like that of whatever kind of shot was used. In cases where someone has successfully used .410 bore, birdshot shot shells at close range, I wonder whether that's what happened. That a slug might be too soft to stop a bear never occurred to me. If I ever find myself needing to buy slugs for anticipated bear defense, I'll look for harder slugs. The same would be true for 00 or 000 buckshot. If I lived where bears were common and could be a problem on my property, I'd probably get one of the heavier caliber AR-platform rifles. I'd have to research which calibers were considered effective for that application.
Ian Mccollum said the taser shotgun rounds never really caught on because of the price per round (roughly $125). I personally would be very hesitant to use such a thing because I have very little confidence that the barbs would actually make good contact on the bear. (Due to their thick fur). Regular tasers have the same problem if a human is wearing a thick jacket, they can be totally ineffective. By the way, if I remember correctly I believe the LAPD found regular tasers to be effective roughly 50% of the time. I should also mention that electric fences are generally effective in deterring bears. As far as birdshot acting like a slug, I'm almost certain that's whats happening. I vaguely remember a study saying that birdshot stays together for roughly 3 yards.
@@infogunvault6920 Thanks for the information. The Taser rounds for the shotgun are more expensive than I'd want to see the government paying. The effectiveness issue is why I'd rather have a Fish and Wildlife officer taking the shot while backed up by other officers with other weapons. That electric fences are effective suggests that a modified electrical shock device might be a way to persuade nuisance bears to go away. I've heard that bears don't like loud noises. If I were dealing with a nuisance bear and couldn't get Fish and Wildlife to arrive while the bear was there, I'd consider getting a really big air horn. I could use that on bears, stray cats, and would trigger it if I were afraid that trespassers had come on my property. The air horn wouldn't be any good if I needed self-defense against an attack. For that, I'd want to go with the heavy caliber AR-15 or a shotgun slug with harder lead. However, I'd rather use the air horn than risk shooting a bear with a rubber pellet and having the bear become irritated with me.
@@VTPSTTU Whether you use rubber slug/buck or air horn, there will always be a small chance of the bear deciding to charge you. I mentioned in one of my videos about a guy who fired a warning shot that triggered a charge (he was not injured by the way). If I remember correctly it is standard procedure for law enforcement dealing with bears to always have an officer with a lethal weapon ready, in case the bear charges as they are using non-lethal deterrent like bear spray. In my opinion, an electric fence around your immediate property would keep away the vast majority of bears (there will always be an exception to every rule of course).
I understand why people like those rounds, they give both good penetration and some damage. Regular hardcast lead rounds on the other hand trades that damage for more penetration. Both are good really.
Glad you liked it! Maybe you might also like to hear a quote about pet grizzly cubs being nice and comfy to sleep next to. 'One September we went camping out in Wild Basin, Johnny and Jenny racing along as happy as two boys. Sometimes they were ahead of me, sometimes behind; occasionally they stopped to wrestle and box. At night they lay close to me beside the camp-fire. Often I used one of them for a pillow, and more than once I awoke to find that they were using me for one.' Source: “The Grizzly, Our Greatest Wild Animal”
If you like this one I think you like the more recent one I made about buckshot for both bears and leopards. th-cam.com/video/l21KdqxnNDE/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
That’s the idea: high penetration in a low recoil firearm enables them to create several wound channels, increasing the likelihood of striking vitals. Contrasted with heavy recoil that requires precision… Is one large wound channel better than a group of small wound channels? Not really. Big bores are good if you don’t miss and small bores are good if you don’t malfunction.
I’ve seen that the Winchester pdx1 has 3 pellets of 00 buck in front of a 1 ounce slug. In regards to the issue of slugs not going through bone, do you think that the 3 pellets would help in “breaking up” or “softening” a thick bone so the slug has a higher chance of going through and penetrating deeper? Or would it be better to stick with hard cast slugs? (If all you are running is a 12 gauge)
That's an interesting question. Even at a short distance of just 10 feet, the pellets are not hitting where the slug is. Marrow-filled bones, even from large animals like bears and cow, is generally easily destroyed by bullets. There is a video on youtube of a guy shooting thick cow bones with a .22 hollowpoint and it really shatters them. So it's not actually a problem of the bone being difficult to break, its more of a problem of a soft lead bullet using basically all of it's energy on flattening out instead of penetrating. It is my opinion that hard cast lead buckshot is the best for shotgun bear defense given the spread it gives and the hardness of the projectiles. If you want to use slugs, the harder kind ( like the brenneke classic magnum) are much better than the slugs that greatly expand (like the PDX1 slug does). Slugs can have quite the advantage in terms of penetration over buckshot of course.
@@infogunvault6920I thank you for your insight and I will be looking into hard cast buckshot/slugs, I haven’t heard anything much on them until I found your channel (you got yourself a new sub btw)
@@maladroitknight Thanks for subbing! While people have been using hard lead slugs for a long time... As far as I can tell, no one else has pointed out that harder buckshot is much better than soft lead for things like bears.
@@irregularrex4004 Yes, sabots can have very good penetration. I don't have my charts of shotgun ammo penetration pulled up right now, but I know that some slugs can have around 31 inches of penetration in ballistics gel. Some slugs may only have around 10 inches of penetration though, so specifics are very important.
That's why they say hunting bears with a single shot is the height of optimism. Oddly enough, I know of one bear attack survivor who carries a double barrel for bear defense. Definitely not my first pick.
Copper-plating is somewhat of an improvement, however, copper plated buckshot and fmj handgun rounds still do get deformed when they hit bone. Not as much as soft lead does obviously.
@@infogunvault6920 Your absolutely right, but at least it should help. The Flitecontrol helps keep the shot tighter so hopefully more buckshot on the target. I also have some nickel plated buckshot, which I would imagine is harder than the copper plated buckshot.
"A 10 gauge has larger buck shot". It does? Buck shot comes in set sizes. I think you meant carries a larger number of pellets. All your examples of animals (and people) hit with various rounds means little. It's shot placement! A tiger hit with a slug that only made a shallow wound in its back? Of course that didn't kill the animal!
I never said that 10 gauge shotguns have larger buckshot. I was implying that since there was only 9 pellets in the 10 gauge load, it's likely that the pellets were 000 buck. I didn't say that explicitly because I didn't know with 100% certainty if this was true. As for the lion that was shot in the back: It is entirely possible to shoot a fleeing lion in the back and make a lethal wound. All that is needed is for the projectile to have enough penetration to reach the heart or lungs.
I include the direct quotations in the video to try to prevent misunderstandings. If, for example, I didn't speak clearly enough and someone thought I said that 10 gauge holds more pellets than 12 gauge, all they would have to do is check the quote and see that only 9 pellets were used.
10mm hard cast rounds will definitely work. This video was meant to clarify and to respond to criticisms about buckshot. I talk about handguns for bear defense in my other videos.th-cam.com/video/iNZs90YZtGo/w-d-xo.html At roughly 24 minutes in this video I show a chart about the penetration of different handgun rounds. I also have a video specifically about handguns and their effectiveness for bear defense if you're interested. th-cam.com/video/inSuoQWEzdY/w-d-xo.html
HAHAHA. I dare say whoever tried that learned the ""Hard Way". The best weapon against a bear is a 12 gag shotgun with rifled slugs having burning magnesium tips I live in Alaska and have had to shoot several bears over the years. The special benekie shells work excellent too For rifes or handguns you want the hard case copper jacket round tip. Bears are many time shot and dead but the critter just doesnt know it. Ive seen bears shot and live for hours after it was shot. No birdshot in shotgun. ONLY load and fire the rifled slug. Also dont worry about the law, we in Ak dont
I'm not trying to be overly critical of you, but I like to clarify and refine things as much as possible because all lot of people may not get what you are trying to say. "hard case copper jacket round tip"? Most people just describe that as full metal jacket rounds. I've tried to look for slugs with "burning magnesium tips" and the closest I can find is slugs loaded with explosives and they do have an exposed tip is is for detonating the explosives. Bears take lethal damage and keep going (lions, cape buffalo, and humans do this as well) not because they don't know they are dead, but because of things like biology and determination. I forget what episode this was but I remember watching "I survived" and this woman was robbed and badly injured at a gas station, she had lost something like 2/3rds of her blood and she should of been dead. The EMTs could not find a pulse because of all the blood lost. Most people may not have survived such a situation, and she did because she had grim determination to survive.
Yes to be technical thats the name. Well there are a few small private ammo companys. I saw these magnesium tips back about ten years ago and bought a box. Dont ask me the name I tossed them into a metal ammo box and have shot maybe a total of 25 of them with another 25 remaining. If you go looking on net sure you can find them, but Beneckie also makes some very powerful bear slugs. The point being make sure you spend extra for top quality stuff. Im not a hunter Im an Air Taxi Pilot so I fly hunters in/out all summer long. I ve seen many a hunt. One time I saw a big brown get hit in the stomach. it took off running with its guts slowly hanging out. After some distance its own colon kept slowly it so this bear bit and chewed off its own stomach and continued running. Was like 2 hours before if finally died. This is a common situation with bears. They may have been fatallly shot, they just dont know it yet and in the the time it takes for them to die, which might behours they are very able to kill the hunters. bears hold around 7 gallonds of blood so even if they look like bleeding a lot they might not be. I refuse to take in any bear hunting group with at least 3 people. 2 I feel is too small. browns are known to come out of the woods at hunters who just made a kill , charge them and steal their kill. Myself I wirk from home and have a dirt landing strip, house barn and 2 planes. Theres a stream runs adjacent to the landing strip so not only browns, but blacks, wolves and every other Alaskan critter can be near. Whena bear does charge it can run 35 mph. Nxt time at the gun range set up a moving target at that speed and see how accurate you are. U find your lucky you even hit the cardboard. The best bear alert thing? DOGS. I have 6 Caucasian shepards (known the breed?) They are the worlds largest dog breed 200 pounds. Thats even bigger than a timber wolf (175ish). The dogs are always outwith me and they will pick up on any bearlong before we will. They will also engage it. No match obviously but they slow the bear giving me enough time to get shotgun ready. Want to experience a true ""Panic Attack" ? Have a brown charge you. As far as laws, well us here in Alaska cant claim we dollow them. bear atttacks supposed to be reported but the Hell with that. I just get a cable, run it thru the critter and drag it back way off with the tractor and dump it. Last thing I need is Fish & Game people on land for next month. Most Alaskans feel same so the stats about bear attacks, dont put to much stock into them being accurate. Well therees my Bear 101 Alaska class. Any more questions. Im a Pilot, not a writer so hope it all made sense. Be safe in the woods!@@infogunvault6920
@@cherylsims5636 Very interesting. When you mentioned dogs, it made me think of the sirius sled patrol. I remember one of those guys saying the best alert against polar bears was a dozen barking huskies. He kept a 10mm in a chest holster as he slept and a loaded rifle nearby as well.
Just because you disregard our hunting and fishing here in AK does not mean we do and I don't appreciate you including ethical hunters in your claim that we all are like you. We're not, thankfully.
Well I remain alive and well in Alaska and if you want to, Id suggest you watch your back rather than worry about Fish & Game officers. I'm very ethical to my OWN SAFETY. If someone doesn t like that well..ask me if I care what they think@@walterdanielswalter.r.dani7628
I don't want to kill bears. Bears are cool. Scummy people are not cool and are way more dangerous. Some plated 00 or #1 should do the trick on Pookie Bear, or Ray Ray Bear.
Yes, it's far more likely that some lowlife thug will try to kill you than a bear. I don't quite get what you mean about "Pookie Bear" and "Ray Ray Bear" though.
You comment is a bit hard to read, but I think I get what you mean. Poachers use 7.62x39 AK's to kill elephants, they are definitely capable for bear defense.
@@infogunvault6920 exactly! 7.62x39 AK's has killed far more elephants than all ethical safari big bore calibers. Cheap military steel core ammos with controled fast semi auto fire can kill any beast on earth at close distance much faster than any ''special and appropriate solution''.
Buckshot in one barrel and a deep penetrating slug in the other. It happens fast. The buckshot covers 4 feet of area much better chance to blind him or stop him momentarily. Then the slug can be aimed and placed properly. You who have never been false charged have no idea how fast it happens. Keep your 15 round clips. Lol. Give me a sawed off double barrel 10 gauge. You will agree when you see a 1200 pound grizzly walking towards you.
I agree with you more than you may realize. The reason I made this video was because people were saying buckshot is not good for bear defense. One guy in particular was saying something about how many people die every year in Alaska because they use buckshot on bears. Needless to say, I have what I believe to be the only one incident where buckshot failure resulted in a bear killing someone. And I pointed out how it could have been prevented with harder buckshot. I have a soft spot for semi-auto 12 gauges, but to each their own!
@@infogunvault6920 lol. Thanks. I wasn’t meaning you. I was responding to others who think they will have time to fire 10 rounds at a charging bear going through Alaskan buck brush at 35mph.
Odds off a bear attack 1in 2.1 million odds of being struck by lighting 1 in15300 so about 137 times more likely to be struck by lighting or the odds of being murdered is about 1 in 140 over your life time. So i think the best bear protection is a .45acp with hollow pionts to slow the other guy running away from the bear. Or at that rate its safer to run around the woods naked with a bacon necklace and honey smeared in you hair.😮
Many more people die "human attacks" than bear attacks. However, people like the videos I make about wild animal attacks more than the ones I make about home defense for example, so I'll probably keep making them.
everyone is exposed to lighting during their lives, but very few people ever get close to a bear. They either dont live in an area that has them and even if they do they dont go into the wilderness enough to have much of a chance. But the relatively small bit of the population that lives in bear country and partakes in outdoor activities like camping, hiking, etc. are in a much greater chance of happening upon a bear. These are the people that need to worry about bear defense, because for them its not 1 and 2.1 million odds, its significantly more.
@@paytong4148 Precisely! There are some people who have been mauled by a bear on more than one occasion. With these bear attack victims, such statistics are neither comforting nor useful.
"Dart gun Article Talk Language Download PDF Watch Edit For other uses, see Dart gun (disambiguation). A dart gun is an air rifle that fires a dart.[1] The dart is tipped with a hypodermic needle and filled with a sedative,[2] vaccine,[3] or antibiotic.[4] A dart gun containing a sedative is called a tranquillizer gun (also spelled tranquilizer gun, tranquilliser gun or tranquiliser gun), derived from the word "tranquil", which means "calm". A Dan Inject Model JM air rifle with a tranquillizer dart History Characteristics Agents Use on non-human animalsEdit A dart gun may be used to sedate a dangerous target from a safe distance, such as in the cases of dog catchers, wildlife officers, and poachers; to medicate a target, such as in the case of farmers and ranchers; or be used for both purposes, such as in the case of zookeepers and wildlife veterinarians. "
Dart guns can be used for wildlife management, but that's not quite the same thing as bear defense. Maybe that's what you intended to say anyway. You usually have to put the dart in the neck region, where there is less fat&muscle to prevent the needle from reaching veins.
@@infogunvault6920 "Dart gun A dart gun may be used to sedate a dangerous target from a safe distance, such as in the cases of dog catchers, wildlife officers, and poachers; to medicate a target, such as in the case of farmers and ranchers; or be used for both purposes, such as in the case of zookeepers and wildlife veterinarians. Dart gun - Wikipedia  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_gun"
@@dawnkosiek6287 The term "safe distance" would not include most bear attacks, because they happen at close range. If the bear is charging at you from less than 10-50yds, that doesn't give you enough time for the solution to take effect, before the bear reaches you. You also have to estimate the weight of the bear beforehand to judge how much sedative is needed. There are a whole host of potential problems with using a dart gun for actual defense. If your goal is to not harm the bear, the most effective tool by far is rubber shotgun slugs. (Or something like a 40mm non-lethal round). If your goal is to protect the lives of people and not bears, that may require a different tool.
@@dawnkosiek6287 The fundamental question we get to is: In a dangerous encounter between bears and humans. Is it more important that the human survives, or that the bear survives? Once we answer that question, we can find the right tool for accomplishing that goal. There is a time and place for non-lethal force, and that time ends when serious bodily injury or death is very likely. I'm perfectly capable of holding a nuanced view of the matter. I just think that, practically speaking, a dart gun is more useful in bear relocation, or for putting collars on them, than anything else.
I made a video about slugs for bear defense, and the challenger slugs actually seemed to do better than brenneke-style slugs. Also, Simo Hayha is "The White Death"🙂, but I know what you mean obviously.
If you want to take down a bear, you need MOMENTUM and not ENERGY. Energy doesn’t care what direction it goes in,it’ll bounce ricochet and even fragment bullets. This is unlike momentum, which will refuse to change direction until all momentum is lost. How do you get more momentum? Use a heavier round. The softness of lead slugs isn’t a disadvantage here, as momentum will carry that lead forwards until momentum is lost regardless of skin fat or muscle. If momentum is completely lost when a slug hits the shoulder, then 100% of the energy contained within will be deposited into the bone and its surrounding tissues. You don’t need a small but hard round for bears, get a large caliber high mass shot. You seriously need to learn physics
I learned the same physics you did. I've just come to the conclusion that poorly constructed large caliber bullets can fail just as badly as poorly constructed small caliber bullets. “Still, many of the really fine hunters from time to time get caught through flukes and plain bad luck. John Kingsley-Heath, a very well-known pro, was badly mauled by a lion he wounded with a light rifle while in a leopard blind several years ago. He followed it up with his .470, but despite two head shots that gave erratic bullet performance, was badly chewed up by the lion. His gunbearer, Kiebe, saved him by shooting the cat off him.” Source: “Death in the Long Grass” by Peter Hathaway Capstick.
I'll be honest. I don't believe too many of the old accounts from old hunting publications and adventure magazines that were presented in this video. Most of them bordered on the fantastic. They were published in a day and age without Internet fast fact checks and lightening speed peer reviews. They were more worried about telling good stories than presenting data that stands up to scrutiny. I wouldn't use buckshot against a grizzly bear and expect anything good. I also don't believe a one ounce foster slug only penetrated two inches into a lions back, and then said lion walked it off for ten days. Thats pure bullshit. Edit: I also don't believe any human ever took FIVE 30 caliber rifle rounds to their bare chest and did a damn thing but die right then and there. I don't care how vicious and fanatical the fellow is. I don't care if he's on a heroic dose of PCP. The hydrostatic shock and pure energy dump would be scientifically impossible to overcome.
First of all, I appreciate that you are willing to put such statements under scrutiny. A healthy amount of skepticism will serve you well. The account said it penetrated "only a little way" into the lions back. 2:42 I remember reading that book and it was not just "telling good stories." It's hardly fantastic to make a poor shot on an animal and later find that animal still alive and well. Especially if the ammunition you're using was not particularly well made or suited to the task at hand because of it's relatively limited penetration. Since you doubt the story involving the .30-40 Krag rounds, how about a more modern account of 30 caliber rounds not immediately resulting in death? From Page 51 of "Black Hawk Down: A Story of Modern War" “Nelson blasted about a dozen rounds into him [with an M60]. They were “slap” rounds, plastic-coated titanium bullets that could penetrate armor, and he saw the rounds go right through the man, but the guy still got up, retrieved his weapon, and even got off a shot or two in Nelson's direction. He [Nelson] shot another 12 rounds into the man, who nevertheless managed to crawl behind the tree. This time he didn't shoot back.” “The man was kneeling and evidently still alive. Nelson squeezed off another long burst...” This seemed to finally kill him.
I hate to break it to you but if your shooting a bear in the shoulder then your not defending yourself ! Charging bears are always shot in front not on the side and i guarantee you if a bear gets buckshot in the face his day is OVER but you run with your ignorance is bliss thing !
First of all, you can still hit a bear's shoulder while facing it head on. The shoulder socket is still in the same place no matter which direction the bear is facing. Second of all, buckshot's effectiveness is pretty dependent on distance. With tests on actual bear heads, the ability to penetrate into the skull itself with 00 buck proved to be questionable at and past 15 yards. Anything I say is directly based off sound logic and verifiable facts. If you have new information that contradicts with what I know, I'd be happy to hear it. I'd like to remind you that you won't change anyone's mind by calling them ignorant. Some people are a lot less objective and forgiving of such things than I am. So implying that they're ignorant would only cause them to double down on their beliefs. A better tactic would be to mention that they made a valid point in some regard and then go on to respectfully correct any misconceptions they have. “A shotgun's effectiveness in stopping a charging bear is a highly controversial subject. I asked Sergeant Bob Brown of the Alaska Department of Public Safety to share some findings of a study he did. After the mauling of Cynthia Dusel-Bacon, his department provided a training program for the U.S. Geological Survey in California. Bob said, "I took skinned (not fleshed) brown bear skulls down there, and I placed these skulls on the firing line. We shot a 12-gauge shotgun at these skulls at varying distances to show penetration of 00 buckshot and slugs. "Shooting from 50 yards with 10 rounds (nine pellets per round), few, if any pellets, hit the skull. At 25 yards a few more pellets hit the skull, but none penetrated it. At 15 yards there was more penetration of the fleshy tissue, but not the skull material itself (it chipped one tooth and entered the tissue by the cheek). "If using buckshot or birdshot within 15 yards, it will penetrate a bear's skull. Shot has killed and will kill a bear; but I wouldn't recommend it because of the non-penetrating capabilities. "We put a slug in at 15 yards; and the slug definitely caved in the upper part of the skull. All the 12-gauge slugs we fired at 25 yards penetrated the skulls.” "The eight-foot bear that was hit by two trucks near Eagle River in 1976 did not die immediately. A passerby had a 20-gauge shotgun, and he shot the bear with two Brenneke* slugs from a distance of 20 feet (shooting from behind and above the animal). One slug passed through the neck and the other one hit the top of the skull, but it didn't penetrate (it chipped off a piece of the skull and put a crack in it). "You start shooting a shotgun at anything exceeding 25 yards with buckshot, and your pattern is so scattered it doesn't have any real effectiveness. We recommend using a slug. Accuracy is good up to a hundred yards with a slug.” ' Source: “Alaska Bear Tales” *Corrected spelling of Brenneke.
![Stuff You Should Know About Buckshot [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3haq5BFh7qs/mqdefault.jpg)
![Stuff You Should Know About Buckshot [Part 1]](/img/tr.png)
'The biggest surprise came when we skinned him, for there, just under the hide, were the big No. 00 buckshot. Each was wrapped in a wad of fur as large as a quarter and several hadn't penetrated the hide at all. Only a few had even drawn blood; they were merely stuck in a layer of fat. Nearly every one of the 36 pellets fired were found on or in the bear, showing how steady Doc's aim had been.
These buckshot loads consistently plowed through 100-pound wolves; yet the grizzly hadn't been hurt at all. Both Doc's and my opinion of buckshot as a grizzly load tumbled, though I'm still sure it would do the job at a very close range.'
The first shot was 50 feet is (16.7 yards) the other shots were from farther away as the bear was walking away.
Source: “The Outdoor Life Bear Book”
'In a more serious tone, Dick said, “Bob, I wonder how much pressure it would take to actually kill this bear - how much muscle pressure it would take.”
“I don't have any idea. Probably quite a bit.”
“I want to try it.”
“What?”
“I want to see how much pressure it would take,” replied Dick. “Sort of make my own penetration test.”” He continued, “I don’t want to ruin the hide, so I’ll take a jab at her where we’ve already skinned, just to see what it would take.”
Dick knelt down and pulled back the hide to expose the skinned front shoulder. Knife poised, Dick stuck the bear in the shoulder and watched it sink easily into the flesh.
This surprised both the guide and the game official. They hadn’t realized this animal was so easily penetrable. A look of satisfaction crossed Dick’s face after the look of surprise left. He felt better. He’d evened up the score a bit.'
Source: “Grizzly Attack in Colorado: The Ed Wiseman Story”
you might want to study a bit more because you're showing stuff from black powder days, a 3 inch shell with a 1 oz slug with modern powder will down a grizzly in one shot in the dead center of the skull. see black powder is 3x weaker than smokeless and it wasn't as dense so the delivery of energy was far less than today.
@@xaagripha7326 At the top of the comment you replied to is an account of modern 00 buckshot loads not being effective at a distance 50 feet 16.7 yards. Likewise, here is another modern account using standard buckshot.
After reading these accounts I personally tested and confirmed that standard 00 buck is not particularly effective on thick bone from a distance of 15 yards. (It's a different video on my channel).
“A shotgun's effectiveness in stopping a charging bear is a highly controversial subject. 1 asked Sergeant Bob Brown of the Alaska Department of Public Safety to share some findings of a study he did. After the mauling of Cynthia Dusel-Bacon, his department provided a training program for the U.S. Geological Survey in California. Bob said, "I took skinned (not fleshed) brown bear skulls down there, and I placed these skulls on the firing line. We shot a 12-gauge shotgun at these skulls at varying distances to show penetration of 00 buckshot and slugs.
"Shooting from 50 yards with 10 rounds (nine pellets per round), few, if any pellets, hit the skull. At 25 yards a few more pellets hit the skull, but none penetrated it. At 15 yards there was more penetration of the fleshy tissue, but not the skull material itself (it chipped one tooth and entered the tissue by the cheek).
"If using buckshot or birdshot within 15 yards, it will penetrate a bear's skull. Shot has killed and will kill a bear; but I wouldn't recommend it because of the non-penetrating capabilities.
"We put a slug in at 15 yards; and the slug definitely caved in the upper part of the skull. All the 12-gauge slugs we fired at 25 yards penetrated the skulls.”
"The eight-foot bear that was hit by two trucks near Eagle River in 1976 did not die immediately. A passerby had a 20-gauge shotgun, and he shot the bear with two Brenneke* slugs from a distance of 20 feet (shooting from behind and above the animal). One slug passed through the neck and the other one hit the top of the skull, but it didn't penetrate (it chipped off a piece of the skull and put a crack in it).
"You start shooting a shotgun at anything exceeding 25 yards with buckshot, and your pattern is so scattered it doesn't have any real effectiveness. We recommend using a slug. Accuracy is good up to a hundred yards with a slug.” '
Source: “Alaska Bear Tales”
*Corrected spelling of Brenneke.
@xaagripha7326 I am in complete disagreement with your assertion. Bear skulls are inches thick at the center, like a ram’s. They are also sloping. Like nature’s armored vehicle. Which makes sense, they evolved to be kicked in the face by hooves; wolves have especial density at their forehead for the same reason. A bear’s forehead has a good chance of deflecting a bullet.
@@KH-rt3ef The skull is thick, but the bone is not thick enough to make much of a difference. If a bullet doesn't reach the brain that is usually because it hit at an angle that was poor or because it wasn't on the right path to begin with.
I demonstrated in another video that it takes relatively little thick bone to stop buckshot pellets.
The argument that bear skulls have evolved to be sloped in order to better resist kicks is not a good one. The biggest threat to bears from an evolutionary perspective is other bears.
The same is true for wolves, so arguing that both have greater thickness at the forehead because of this is not really useful.
I'm not saying that bullets can't be deflected, but rather it's not nearly as much of a deal as people think it is.
If you are not totally convinced, I can give you a quote from a bear guide to further prove my point.
@@KH-rt3ef “This notion of the thickness of a bear's skull is well established but has no basis in fact. Actually the skull of the largest of these animals is not particularly massive. The bone at the forehead may be an eighth of an inch thick and will not deflect any highspeed big-game bullet, regardless of the angle at which it strikes." "The ordinary .22 Rimfire bullet easily penetrates a bear’s skull and goes into the brain. Grizzly bears have been killed with rifles of this caliber.”
Source: “My lost wilderness : adventures of an Alaskan hunter and guide”, by Ralph Young
In Canada you just a scream at the bear and yell Justin Trudeau. The bear then knows you have no way to protect yourself and it may take pity on you.
Ignorant people like Trudeau seem to never be affected by the policies they are eager to impose on other people.
Man I just gotta say I love your videos especially your bear/ wildlife ones, and appreciate your approach and citing ect
Thanks! I try my best to be professional and to always provide proof that what I'm saying is accurate.
My skeptical ass with all the blow-hards.. Yeah, I am leaning toward agreement on your sentiments... Definitely not looking for friends.. Just landed here, somehow.. LOL. Fkn Rabbits..
My wife's uncle was hunting and lost his footing on a steep hill. As he slid he was almost perfectly presented in front of a black bear. He shot the bear in the skull, but the angle was wrong, and the 300 win mag just peeled the skin of the skull. He quickly jacked another round in, and the next shot went through the skull front and back. The skull was 3/4" thick. Like you said before, Cherry-picked data, still something to think about. I guarantee he never cycled a bolt action faster in his life.
At the end of the day, I think he would have survived anyway. I have seen the hide, the bear was somewhat small, and the man is a quite large logger. Who knows.
Very interesting! In my other video with the polar bear thumbnail, I talk about how high velocity rounds (.300 Win Short mag), can fail to penetrate deeply even when the round hits flesh (not thick skull).
What you said about him probably surviving anyway made me think about In "I Survived" episode where a black bear attacked a man and his wife in their home.
The man was a big fella too, but he got pretty badly torn up. If I remember correctly, the doctors said that a smaller person probably would have died from such wounds.
If i shot something 13 times and it gets up, it just might be God calling me home
You could interpret it like that. Or you could see it as a sign that larger magazines and a semi-auto action is a gift from god in a bad situation.
As I explained in the one African dangerous game video, an animal that is still moving and attacking after receiving fatal damage, that is caused by biology.
I would reserve judgements about supernatural cause and effect until everything else is ruled out.😉
I've been wondering about something, and I want to get other people's opinions on it. The question is why has society changed so that Americans are less friendly and have less of a sense of community?
“People are jaded in this day and age." " People are not as friendly and neighborly as they were years ago. Society has drastically changed!” Woman, 46
@infogunvault6920 it's never been friendly unless you were a certain type of person and surrounded yourself with like persons. It's been exacerbated by the wealth disparity, and the influx of illegal immigration.
@infogunvault6920 God has been removed and it's all about and cultural with many people is all about self gratification.
@infogunvault6920 Communications technology has enabled people to easily rely on themselves for information as opposed to wholly peers. There is little intellectual or economic incentives for loyalty, now. The general orthodoxy and doom of climate predictions made people fearful. Televised violence, and decades of crime and warfare. Humanity has been through a lot, for an entire adult generation’s life now. Farming community used to mean survival, but the skills and lifestyle have been forfeited. Competition creates the most value, now.
Pffft rubber slugs… like hell! If I’m shooting a bear, it’s to terminate it.
Greeting from Alaska. My personal choices are either an 18" barrel. iron sighted 12 gauge Mossberg 500 with hard cast Brenneke slugs, or a Marlin 18" barreled .45/70 with Buffalo-Bore 430grain hard cast. I'm usually by myself and feel comfortable with either
Thanks for weighing in!
@@infogunvault6920
👍
After long, painful experience, professional hunters of dangerous game (mostly in Africa) have unanimously settled on the idea that penetration is the most critical feature of effective ammo.
Entirely true! I've been reading about African game wardens and the weapons they use on elephants, and one of them was issued a .458 win mag. He was not extremely impressed with it. This was because the penetration wasn't excellent even with the solid (non-expanding) rounds they were using. He went out and bought a .375 H&H because it had better penetration in comparison.
I like copper plated sluges, that is what I load in my KSG. Thank you for your research.
I remember that incident with Brobee223. The slugs came apart rapidly, and turned into very fine fragments. It was really bizarre
Yeah, greatly disappointing.
There's probably more incidents like that one that we just haven't heard about.
I also remember a story about a guy walking into the woods never to be seen again. They found handgun and rifle rounds in a particularly troublesome bear, which that matched the missing guy's calibers. So they rightfully concluded the bear probably killed the guy years ago.
If I remember correctly, the bear had some soft lead .38's in it's skull.
I could probably find that story if you want to know more.
@@infogunvault6920 it’s not that surprising. Jim Cirillo wrote about shooting men in the head with 38s and having them deflect and the guy remaining in the fight
I always thought buckshot would be great for bear defense. But I’ve never hunted bears or had to even think about them growing up In Florida where their numbers were very low. But that has changed because now we have a lot of them and they get big here
I should put it like this, buckshot has the potential to be effective provided some kind of improvement is made to the projectiles used.
Soft lead 00 is not ideal.
I did a bone penetration test video where I demonstrated that at 15 yards, standard 00 buck has basically superficial penetration on thick bone.
This matches up with a test another guy did way back with bear heads, he found that 00 buck at 15 yards would not penetrate a bear's skull.
I've heard that they make a kind of Taser round that fires from a regular shotgun or maybe a modified shotgun. I don't know the exact details. While I wouldn't expect a bear to be affected by a Taser in the way a person would, I think that kind of round might be equally effective as a hard rubber round at discouraging a bear from approaching people. If the goal is to drive away a nuisance bear and not self-defense against a bear attack, maybe those rounds would be worth trying. Ideally, I'd like for a Fish and Game officer to try that while fellow officers provide backup. That also absolves me of having to define a nuisance bear and take the legal risk of shooting a bear when I don't have a tag.
I've heard that at close range, many birdshot or buckshot rounds act as if they are soft slugs. If they haven't really separated from the shot cup when they hit a bear, a deer, a person, or whatever, then the effect is more like that of a soft slug than like that of whatever kind of shot was used. In cases where someone has successfully used .410 bore, birdshot shot shells at close range, I wonder whether that's what happened.
That a slug might be too soft to stop a bear never occurred to me. If I ever find myself needing to buy slugs for anticipated bear defense, I'll look for harder slugs. The same would be true for 00 or 000 buckshot.
If I lived where bears were common and could be a problem on my property, I'd probably get one of the heavier caliber AR-platform rifles. I'd have to research which calibers were considered effective for that application.
Ian Mccollum said the taser shotgun rounds never really caught on because of the price per round (roughly $125).
I personally would be very hesitant to use such a thing because I have very little confidence that the barbs would actually make good contact on the bear. (Due to their thick fur). Regular tasers have the same problem if a human is wearing a thick jacket, they can be totally ineffective.
By the way, if I remember correctly I believe the LAPD found regular tasers to be effective roughly 50% of the time.
I should also mention that electric fences are generally effective in deterring bears.
As far as birdshot acting like a slug, I'm almost certain that's whats happening. I vaguely remember a study saying that birdshot stays together for roughly 3 yards.
@@infogunvault6920 Thanks for the information. The Taser rounds for the shotgun are more expensive than I'd want to see the government paying. The effectiveness issue is why I'd rather have a Fish and Wildlife officer taking the shot while backed up by other officers with other weapons. That electric fences are effective suggests that a modified electrical shock device might be a way to persuade nuisance bears to go away.
I've heard that bears don't like loud noises. If I were dealing with a nuisance bear and couldn't get Fish and Wildlife to arrive while the bear was there, I'd consider getting a really big air horn. I could use that on bears, stray cats, and would trigger it if I were afraid that trespassers had come on my property. The air horn wouldn't be any good if I needed self-defense against an attack. For that, I'd want to go with the heavy caliber AR-15 or a shotgun slug with harder lead. However, I'd rather use the air horn than risk shooting a bear with a rubber pellet and having the bear become irritated with me.
@@VTPSTTU Whether you use rubber slug/buck or air horn, there will always be a small chance of the bear deciding to charge you. I mentioned in one of my videos about a guy who fired a warning shot that triggered a charge (he was not injured by the way).
If I remember correctly it is standard procedure for law enforcement dealing with bears to always have an officer with a lethal weapon ready, in case the bear charges as they are using non-lethal deterrent like bear spray.
In my opinion, an electric fence around your immediate property would keep away the vast majority of bears (there will always be an exception to every rule of course).
For handguns, I prefer a cartridge by Underwood with the Lehigh extreme penetrator bullet.
shoot what you have
I understand why people like those rounds, they give both good penetration and some damage. Regular hardcast lead rounds on the other hand trades that damage for more penetration. Both are good really.
Thank you.
Glad you liked it!
Maybe you might also like to hear a quote about pet grizzly cubs being nice and comfy to sleep next to.
'One September we went camping out in Wild Basin, Johnny and Jenny racing along as happy as two boys. Sometimes they were ahead of me, sometimes behind; occasionally they stopped to wrestle and box. At night they lay close to me beside the camp-fire. Often I used one of them for a pillow, and more than once I awoke to find that they were using me for one.'
Source: “The Grizzly, Our Greatest Wild Animal”
If you like this one I think you like the more recent one I made about buckshot for both bears and leopards. th-cam.com/video/l21KdqxnNDE/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
I can't understand why people think that 10mm Glocks and 5.56 rounds are death rays on large game bizarre! Better carry a lot of ammo
That’s the idea: high penetration in a low recoil firearm enables them to create several wound channels, increasing the likelihood of striking vitals. Contrasted with heavy recoil that requires precision… Is one large wound channel better than a group of small wound channels? Not really. Big bores are good if you don’t miss and small bores are good if you don’t malfunction.
If buckshot is all you have, better give it to him!
00 buck is even better than some slugs in my opinion. The lightfield style of slugs (now discontinued) were notorious for coming apart.
I’ve seen that the Winchester pdx1 has 3 pellets of 00 buck in front of a 1 ounce slug. In regards to the issue of slugs not going through bone, do you think that the 3 pellets would help in “breaking up” or “softening” a thick bone so the slug has a higher chance of going through and penetrating deeper? Or would it be better to stick with hard cast slugs? (If all you are running is a 12 gauge)
That's an interesting question. Even at a short distance of just 10 feet, the pellets are not hitting where the slug is.
Marrow-filled bones, even from large animals like bears and cow, is generally easily destroyed by bullets. There is a video on youtube of a guy shooting thick cow bones with a .22 hollowpoint and it really shatters them.
So it's not actually a problem of the bone being difficult to break, its more of a problem of a soft lead bullet using basically all of it's energy on flattening out instead of penetrating.
It is my opinion that hard cast lead buckshot is the best for shotgun bear defense given the spread it gives and the hardness of the projectiles.
If you want to use slugs, the harder kind ( like the brenneke classic magnum) are much better than the slugs that greatly expand (like the PDX1 slug does).
Slugs can have quite the advantage in terms of penetration over buckshot of course.
@@infogunvault6920I thank you for your insight and I will be looking into hard cast buckshot/slugs, I haven’t heard anything much on them until I found your channel (you got yourself a new sub btw)
@@maladroitknight Thanks for subbing!
While people have been using hard lead slugs for a long time...
As far as I can tell, no one else has pointed out that harder buckshot is much better than soft lead for things like bears.
Sabot slugs seem to have the best penetration from the ballistic tests I've seen, though they need a rifled barrel.
@@irregularrex4004 Yes, sabots can have very good penetration.
I don't have my charts of shotgun ammo penetration pulled up right now, but I know that some slugs can have around 31 inches of penetration in ballistics gel. Some slugs may only have around 10 inches of penetration though, so specifics are very important.
A great bear is a powerful cunning adversary, A wounded any bear is Satan! If you ever track a wounded one you will know the truth of what I say.
If it’s up after you shoot it, that means you haven’t shot it enough times.
That's why they say hunting bears with a single shot is the height of optimism.
Oddly enough, I know of one bear attack survivor who carries a double barrel for bear defense. Definitely not my first pick.
Federal copper plated buckshot with flitecontrol would be my choice!
Copper-plating is somewhat of an improvement, however, copper plated buckshot and fmj handgun rounds still do get deformed when they hit bone. Not as much as soft lead does obviously.
@@infogunvault6920 Your absolutely right, but at least it should help. The Flitecontrol helps keep the shot tighter so hopefully more buckshot on the target. I also have some nickel plated buckshot, which I would imagine is harder than the copper plated buckshot.
"A 10 gauge has larger buck shot". It does? Buck shot comes in set sizes. I think you meant carries a larger number of pellets. All your examples of animals (and people) hit with various rounds means little. It's shot placement! A tiger hit with a slug that only made a shallow wound in its back? Of course that didn't kill the animal!
I never said that 10 gauge shotguns have larger buckshot. I was implying that since there was only 9 pellets in the 10 gauge load, it's likely that the pellets were 000 buck. I didn't say that explicitly because I didn't know with 100% certainty if this was true.
As for the lion that was shot in the back: It is entirely possible to shoot a fleeing lion in the back and make a lethal wound. All that is needed is for the projectile to have enough penetration to reach the heart or lungs.
I include the direct quotations in the video to try to prevent misunderstandings.
If, for example, I didn't speak clearly enough and someone thought I said that 10 gauge holds more pellets than 12 gauge, all they would have to do is check the quote and see that only 9 pellets were used.
Industrial 8 gauge 25,000psi loaded with 20 with 0000buck does far better than 12ga at 14,700psi and 10 gauge at 11,700psi
Oof! Recoil makes that a hard pass for me!😬 But don't let me stop you from using it!😆
What about the Glock 10 mm ?
10mm hard cast rounds will definitely work. This video was meant to clarify and to respond to criticisms about buckshot. I talk about handguns for bear defense in my other videos.th-cam.com/video/iNZs90YZtGo/w-d-xo.html At roughly 24 minutes in this video I show a chart about the penetration of different handgun rounds.
I also have a video specifically about handguns and their effectiveness for bear defense if you're interested.
th-cam.com/video/inSuoQWEzdY/w-d-xo.html
HAHAHA. I dare say whoever tried that learned the ""Hard Way". The best weapon against a bear is a 12 gag shotgun with rifled slugs having burning magnesium tips I live in Alaska and have had to shoot several bears over the years. The special benekie shells work excellent too
For rifes or handguns you want the hard case copper jacket round tip. Bears are many time shot and dead but the critter just doesnt know it. Ive seen bears shot and live for hours after it was shot.
No birdshot in shotgun. ONLY load and fire the rifled slug. Also dont worry about the law, we in Ak dont
I'm not trying to be overly critical of you, but I like to clarify and refine
things as much as possible because all lot of people may not get what
you are trying to say.
"hard case copper jacket round tip"? Most people just describe that as full metal jacket rounds.
I've tried to look for slugs with "burning magnesium tips" and the closest I can find is slugs loaded with explosives and they do have an exposed tip is is for detonating the explosives.
Bears take lethal damage and keep going (lions, cape buffalo, and humans do this as well) not because they don't know they are dead, but because of things like biology and determination.
I forget what episode this was but I remember watching "I survived" and this woman was robbed and badly injured at a gas station, she had lost something like 2/3rds of her blood and she should of been dead. The EMTs could not find a pulse because of all the blood lost. Most people may not have survived such a situation, and she did because she had grim determination to survive.
Yes to be technical thats the name. Well there are a few small private ammo companys. I saw these magnesium tips back about ten years ago and bought a box. Dont ask me the name I tossed them into a metal ammo box and have shot maybe a total of 25 of them with another 25 remaining. If you go looking on net sure you can find them, but Beneckie also makes some very powerful bear slugs.
The point being make sure you spend extra for top quality stuff. Im not a hunter Im an Air Taxi Pilot so I fly hunters in/out all summer long. I ve seen many a hunt. One time I saw a big brown get hit in the stomach. it took off running with its guts slowly hanging out.
After some distance its own colon kept slowly it so this bear bit and chewed off its own stomach and continued running. Was like 2 hours before if finally died.
This is a common situation with bears. They may have been fatallly shot, they just dont know it yet and in the the time it takes for them to die, which might behours they are very able to kill the hunters. bears hold around 7 gallonds of blood so even if they look like bleeding a lot they might not be.
I refuse to take in any bear hunting group with at least 3 people. 2 I feel is too small. browns are known to come out of the woods at hunters who just made a kill , charge them and steal their kill.
Myself I wirk from home and have a dirt landing strip, house barn and 2 planes. Theres a stream runs adjacent to the landing strip so not only browns, but blacks, wolves and every other Alaskan critter can be near. Whena bear does charge it can run 35 mph. Nxt time at the gun range set up a moving target at that speed and see how accurate you are. U find your lucky you even hit the cardboard.
The best bear alert thing? DOGS. I have 6 Caucasian shepards (known the breed?) They are the worlds largest dog breed 200 pounds. Thats even bigger than a timber wolf (175ish). The dogs are always outwith me and they will pick up on any bearlong before we will. They will also engage it. No match obviously but they slow the bear giving me enough time to get shotgun ready. Want to experience a true ""Panic Attack" ? Have a brown charge you.
As far as laws, well us here in Alaska cant claim we dollow them. bear atttacks supposed to be reported but the Hell with that. I just get a cable, run it thru the critter and drag it back way off with the tractor and dump it. Last thing I need is Fish & Game people on land for next month. Most Alaskans feel same so the stats about bear attacks, dont put to much stock into them being accurate.
Well therees my Bear 101 Alaska class. Any more questions. Im a Pilot, not a writer so hope it all made sense. Be safe in the woods!@@infogunvault6920
@@cherylsims5636
Very interesting.
When you mentioned dogs, it made me think of the sirius sled patrol. I remember one of those guys saying the best alert against polar bears was a dozen barking huskies. He kept a 10mm in a chest holster as he slept and a loaded rifle nearby as well.
Just because you disregard our hunting and fishing here in AK does not mean we do and I don't appreciate you including ethical hunters in your claim that we all are like you. We're not, thankfully.
Well I remain alive and well in Alaska and if you want to, Id suggest you watch your back rather than worry about Fish & Game officers. I'm very ethical to my OWN SAFETY. If someone doesn t like that well..ask me if I care what they think@@walterdanielswalter.r.dani7628
I don't want to kill bears. Bears are cool. Scummy people are not cool and are way more dangerous. Some plated 00 or #1 should do the trick on Pookie Bear, or Ray Ray Bear.
Yes, it's far more likely that some lowlife thug will try to kill you than a bear.
I don't quite get what you mean about "Pookie Bear" and "Ray Ray Bear" though.
Only a very high speed slug can kill a bear. The Breenneke Black Magic is one.
What makes you say that?
First I wouldn't go out there whith a 10 gage and you need reliable back up like 44 magnum people will not like this in like AK 47 when its me or him😢
You comment is a bit hard to read, but I think I get what you mean.
Poachers use 7.62x39 AK's to kill elephants, they are definitely capable for bear defense.
@@infogunvault6920 exactly!
7.62x39 AK's has killed far more elephants than all ethical safari big bore calibers.
Cheap military steel core ammos with controled fast semi auto fire can kill any beast on earth at close distance much faster than any ''special and appropriate solution''.
10 gauge is much better than .44 mag, what are you on about?
I am not going to try and scare a bear they can come back around on you and kill you the first chance they get
Buckshot in one barrel and a deep penetrating slug in the other. It happens fast. The buckshot covers 4 feet of area much better chance to blind him or stop him momentarily. Then the slug can be aimed and placed properly. You who have never been false charged have no idea how fast it happens. Keep your 15 round clips. Lol. Give me a sawed off double barrel 10 gauge. You will agree when you see a 1200 pound grizzly walking towards you.
I agree with you more than you may realize. The reason I made this video was because people were saying buckshot is not good for bear defense. One guy in particular was saying something about how many people die every year in Alaska because they use buckshot on bears.
Needless to say, I have what I believe to be the only one incident where buckshot failure resulted in a bear killing someone. And I pointed out how it could have been prevented with harder buckshot.
I have a soft spot for semi-auto 12 gauges, but to each their own!
@@infogunvault6920 lol. Thanks. I wasn’t meaning you. I was responding to others who think they will have time to fire 10 rounds at a charging bear going through Alaskan buck brush at 35mph.
Odds off a bear attack 1in 2.1 million odds of being struck by lighting 1 in15300 so about 137 times more likely to be struck by lighting or the odds of being murdered is about 1 in 140 over your life time. So i think the best bear protection is a .45acp with hollow pionts to slow the other guy running away from the bear. Or at that rate its safer to run around the woods naked with a bacon necklace and honey smeared in you hair.😮
Many more people die "human attacks" than bear attacks. However, people like the videos I make about wild animal attacks more than the ones I make about home defense for example, so I'll probably keep making them.
everyone is exposed to lighting during their lives, but very few people ever get close to a bear. They either dont live in an area that has them and even if they do they dont go into the wilderness enough to have much of a chance. But the relatively small bit of the population that lives in bear country and partakes in outdoor activities like camping, hiking, etc. are in a much greater chance of happening upon a bear. These are the people that need to worry about bear defense, because for them its not 1 and 2.1 million odds, its significantly more.
@@paytong4148 Precisely! There are some people who have been mauled by a bear on more than one occasion. With these bear attack victims, such statistics are neither comforting nor useful.
"Dart gun
Article Talk
Language
Download PDF
Watch
Edit
For other uses, see Dart gun (disambiguation).
A dart gun is an air rifle that fires a dart.[1] The dart is tipped with a hypodermic needle and filled with a sedative,[2] vaccine,[3] or antibiotic.[4] A dart gun containing a sedative is called a tranquillizer gun (also spelled tranquilizer gun, tranquilliser gun or tranquiliser gun), derived from the word "tranquil", which means "calm".
A Dan Inject Model JM air rifle with a tranquillizer dart
History
Characteristics
Agents
Use on non-human animalsEdit
A dart gun may be used to sedate a dangerous target from a safe distance, such as in the cases of dog catchers, wildlife officers, and poachers; to medicate a target, such as in the case of farmers and ranchers; or be used for both purposes, such as in the case of zookeepers and wildlife veterinarians.
"
Dart guns can be used for wildlife management, but that's not quite the same thing as bear defense. Maybe that's what you intended to say anyway. You usually have to put the dart in the neck region, where there is less fat&muscle to prevent the needle from reaching veins.
@@infogunvault6920 "Dart gun
A dart gun may be used to sedate a dangerous target from a safe distance, such as in the cases of dog catchers, wildlife officers, and poachers; to medicate a target, such as in the case of farmers and ranchers; or be used for both purposes, such as in the case of zookeepers and wildlife veterinarians.
Dart gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dart_gun"
@@dawnkosiek6287 The term "safe distance" would not include most bear attacks, because they happen at close range. If the bear is charging at you from less than 10-50yds, that doesn't give you enough time for the solution to take effect, before the bear reaches you.
You also have to estimate the weight of the bear beforehand to judge how much sedative is needed. There are a whole host of potential problems with using a dart gun for actual defense.
If your goal is to not harm the bear, the most effective tool by far is rubber shotgun slugs. (Or something like a 40mm non-lethal round).
If your goal is to protect the lives of people and not bears, that may require a different tool.
@@dawnkosiek6287 The fundamental question we get to is:
In a dangerous encounter between bears and humans. Is it more important that the human survives, or that the bear survives?
Once we answer that question, we can find the right tool for accomplishing that goal.
There is a time and place for non-lethal force, and that time ends when serious bodily injury or death is very likely.
I'm perfectly capable of holding a nuanced view of the matter. I just think that, practically speaking, a dart gun is more useful in bear relocation, or for putting collars on them, than anything else.
Brenekke black magic slugs accept nothing less for grizzly and the white death.
I made a video about slugs for bear defense, and the challenger slugs actually seemed to do better than brenneke-style slugs.
Also, Simo Hayha is "The White Death"🙂, but I know what you mean obviously.
@@infogunvault6920 I meant it for both. Close quarters is your only hope against that man.
If you want to take down a bear, you need MOMENTUM and not ENERGY. Energy doesn’t care what direction it goes in,it’ll bounce ricochet and even fragment bullets. This is unlike momentum, which will refuse to change direction until all momentum is lost.
How do you get more momentum? Use a heavier round. The softness of lead slugs isn’t a disadvantage here, as momentum will carry that lead forwards until momentum is lost regardless of skin fat or muscle. If momentum is completely lost when a slug hits the shoulder, then 100% of the energy contained within will be deposited into the bone and its surrounding tissues.
You don’t need a small but hard round for bears, get a large caliber high mass shot.
You seriously need to learn physics
I learned the same physics you did. I've just come to the conclusion that poorly constructed large caliber bullets can fail just as badly as poorly constructed small caliber bullets.
“Still, many of the really fine hunters from time to time get caught through flukes and plain bad luck. John Kingsley-Heath, a very well-known pro, was badly mauled by a lion he wounded with a light rifle while in a leopard blind several years ago. He followed it up with his .470, but despite two head shots that gave erratic bullet performance, was badly chewed up by the lion. His gunbearer, Kiebe, saved him by shooting the cat off him.”
Source: “Death in the Long Grass” by Peter Hathaway Capstick.
I'll be honest. I don't believe too many of the old accounts from old hunting publications and adventure magazines that were presented in this video. Most of them bordered on the fantastic. They were published in a day and age without Internet fast fact checks and lightening speed peer reviews. They were more worried about telling good stories than presenting data that stands up to scrutiny.
I wouldn't use buckshot against a grizzly bear and expect anything good. I also don't believe a one ounce foster slug only penetrated two inches into a lions back, and then said lion walked it off for ten days. Thats pure bullshit.
Edit: I also don't believe any human ever took FIVE 30 caliber rifle rounds to their bare chest and did a damn thing but die right then and there. I don't care how vicious and fanatical the fellow is. I don't care if he's on a heroic dose of PCP. The hydrostatic shock and pure energy dump would be scientifically impossible to overcome.
First of all, I appreciate that you are willing to put such statements under scrutiny.
A healthy amount of skepticism will serve you well.
The account said it penetrated "only a little way" into the lions back. 2:42
I remember reading that book and it was not just "telling good stories."
It's hardly fantastic to make a poor shot on an animal and later find that animal still alive and well. Especially if the ammunition you're using was not particularly well made or suited to the task at hand because of it's relatively limited penetration.
Since you doubt the story involving the .30-40 Krag rounds, how about a more modern account of 30 caliber rounds not immediately resulting in death?
From Page 51 of "Black Hawk Down: A Story of Modern War"
“Nelson blasted about a dozen rounds into him [with an M60]. They were “slap” rounds, plastic-coated titanium bullets that could penetrate armor, and he saw the rounds go right through the man, but the guy still got up, retrieved his weapon, and even got off a shot or two in Nelson's direction. He [Nelson] shot another 12 rounds into the man, who nevertheless managed to crawl behind the tree. This time he didn't shoot back.” “The man was kneeling and evidently still alive. Nelson squeezed off another long burst...” This seemed to finally kill him.
I hate to break it to you but if your shooting a bear in the shoulder then your not defending yourself ! Charging bears are always shot in front not on the side and i guarantee you if a bear gets buckshot in the face his day is OVER but you run with your ignorance is bliss thing !
First of all, you can still hit a bear's shoulder while facing it head on. The shoulder socket is still in the same place no matter which direction the bear is facing.
Second of all, buckshot's effectiveness is pretty dependent on distance. With tests on actual bear heads, the ability to penetrate into the skull itself with 00 buck proved to be questionable at and past 15 yards.
Anything I say is directly based off sound logic and verifiable facts.
If you have new information that contradicts with what I know, I'd be happy to hear it.
I'd like to remind you that you won't change anyone's mind by calling them ignorant. Some people are a lot less objective and forgiving of such things than I am. So implying that they're ignorant would only cause them to double down on their beliefs.
A better tactic would be to mention that they made a valid point in some regard and then go on to respectfully correct any misconceptions they have.
“A shotgun's effectiveness in stopping a charging bear is a highly controversial subject. I asked Sergeant Bob Brown of the Alaska Department of Public Safety to share some findings of a study he did. After the mauling of Cynthia Dusel-Bacon, his department provided a training program for the U.S. Geological Survey in California. Bob said, "I took skinned (not fleshed) brown bear skulls down there, and I placed these skulls on the firing line. We shot a 12-gauge shotgun at these skulls at varying distances to show penetration of 00 buckshot and slugs.
"Shooting from 50 yards with 10 rounds (nine pellets per round), few, if any pellets, hit the skull. At 25 yards a few more pellets hit the skull, but none penetrated it. At 15 yards there was more penetration of the fleshy tissue, but not the skull material itself (it chipped one tooth and entered the tissue by the cheek).
"If using buckshot or birdshot within 15 yards, it will penetrate a bear's skull. Shot has killed and will kill a bear; but I wouldn't recommend it because of the non-penetrating capabilities.
"We put a slug in at 15 yards; and the slug definitely caved in the upper part of the skull. All the 12-gauge slugs we fired at 25 yards penetrated the skulls.”
"The eight-foot bear that was hit by two trucks near Eagle River in 1976 did not die immediately. A passerby had a 20-gauge shotgun, and he shot the bear with two Brenneke* slugs from a distance of 20 feet (shooting from behind and above the animal). One slug passed through the neck and the other one hit the top of the skull, but it didn't penetrate (it chipped off a piece of the skull and put a crack in it).
"You start shooting a shotgun at anything exceeding 25 yards with buckshot, and your pattern is so scattered it doesn't have any real effectiveness. We recommend using a slug. Accuracy is good up to a hundred yards with a slug.” '
Source: “Alaska Bear Tales”
*Corrected spelling of Brenneke.