Read our webcomic Fractal Fables for free: www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/fractal-fables/list?title_no=999212 The first five episodes was uploaded daily from the 13th up to the 17th of November. The rest will have a varied upload schedule of a weekly to monthly basis until the first season is complete. I hope you guys enjoy it.
Care to explain the discrimination and transphobia at 29:16? Accepting and respecting gender identity isn't some socialist/communist/bureaucratic dystopian belief.
Capitalist Dystopia is more "human" than Theocratic Dystopia btw. Theocratic dystopia pays more lip-service to the human experience than the Capitalist dystopia, but in actual practice it oppresses things such as aesthetic, desire & vitality into nothingness. It grinds everything to a rigid halt in much the same way as the Bureaucratic dystopia, except through non-secular means (in fact, the Theocratic & Bureaucratic are mostly the same dystopia; the only difference being their secularism or lack-thereof.) Ascetism/Restriction is the ultimate ideal of both worlds. Capitalist dystopia focuses less overtly on the human experience, but manages to keep it intact and even push it to extreme boundaries. Cyberpunk worlds are full of adventure, beauty, anarchy, intensity, ambition, the highs & lows of life etc. Mega-Corps are even 'pseudo-feudal' if you will, a sort of pale mimicry of the houses that would arise in a Warrior Dystopia (IE. the "most human" of all dystopia).
Capitalist Dystopia is more "human" than Theocratic Dystopia btw. Theocratic dystopia pays more lip-service to the human experience than the Capitalist dystopia, but in actual practice it oppresses things such as aesthetic, desire & vitality into nothingness. It grinds everything to a rigid halt in much the same way as the Bureaucratic dystopia, except through non-secular means (in fact, the Theocratic & Bureaucratic are mostly the same dystopia; the only difference being their secularism or lack-thereof.) Ascetism/Restriction is the ultimate ideal of both worlds. Capitalist dystopia focuses less overtly on the human experience, but manages to keep it intact and even push it to extreme boundaries. Cyberpunk worlds are full of adventure, beauty, anarchy, intensity, ambition, the highs & lows of life etc. Mega-Corps are even 'pseudo-feudal' if you will, a sort of pale mimicry of the houses that would arise in a Warrior Dystopia (IE. the "most human" of all dystopia), which lends credence to them being closer in proximity.
@dansmith1661 The Hunger Games regime is supposed to be fascistic capitalism; there is no ideology of class abolition, there is quite literally a class of wealthy people which is not only ideologically justified by the government but celebrated yearly with child sacrifices
@@dansmith1661 There's not that much work to do when it's all automated with machinery. Part of advanced capitalism is keeping the people from over-producing so that once the rich take all they want, there is nothing left over for the poor.
@@dansmith1661 people do work in the Hunger Games. The main character is kind of pissed that her mom won't get a job after the dad died, so Katniss has to take care of Prim and her mom...They are told to worship the state. The guy from the District 2 talks about bringing glory to his district.
@@FMJIRISH Socialism, also known as Economic Collectivism/Statism or Command Economy, is when the State -in the name of the "public"- officially owns most or all of the means of production and industries, and centrally conducts the planning of production and the allocation of resources/commodities/goods/services across the citizenry, instead of an unregulated price system and civil market participants spontaneously carrying out these functions in a mostly privatized economic climate. So the totalitarian Panem government technically fits the academically accepted definition of Socialism as exemplified by the real-world USSR.
40k is so much more than a theocracy. The state church has great power, yes, but so does the military and the aptly named Administratum. Mechanicus is a parallel theotechnocratic society. If anything, humanity in 40k is characterised by having a relatively weak merchant class, although the rogue traders might be inclined to disagree.
Approximately 90% of all the voidcraft with interstellar capabilities in Human-controlled spacea are merchant ships. The merchant class is thriving and numerous.
The 40 lK imperium of man is a constructed worst of all possible worlds at once having an orgy. It is mostly fascist, but not afraid to borrow from other bad systems.
"Ethics removed from war with the Prussian's invention of total war" You mean the French with the introduction of levée en masse and modern industrial war. Prussian military reforms took their cues from ol' Boney. (and so on) I recommend JFC Fuller's The Conduct of War 1789-1961 on this subject.
How do you know if your deed is good? The immediate outcome? The long term downstream outcome? What about a deed of evil intent that saves lives? Utilitarian (outcome of the action) ethics really gets fuzzy when we look at actions that are good on the short term, but long term, down stream, indirectly cause immense harm. If for example I save someone's life, but that person becomes someone that deleted a large number of people, then in totality, my action made great horrors possible. But in the short term I saved a life. The long term, indirect, and big picture makes things more complicated. "A good deed" is questionable, was it an action that itself was good, or the outcome? Bender attempting to fill in as God kept trying to help the small people living on his metal frame, but the more he did the worse things became. When he asked the huge giant computer if what he did was right the cryptic response was "right and wrong are only words, it is what you do that is important" which is true but does not really answer the question. Furthermore, it is implied but not stated that Bender was sent back with the experience to free the Monks from the laundry closet. The point is "good deeds" can have horrible consequences. Horrible deeds can cause more good than harm, even if by sheer accident.
I find it interesting how so many dystopias are masked as Utopias. I also find it interesting how the Utopia mask is completely reliant on the dystopia underneath in order to exist.
Utopia is greek derivative word meaninf "no land" so when you try to preach for reaching something that is not there - you waste somebodies else reources until everythibg rots..
@@NIGBEATSUtopia is an impossibility and always will be. Therfore every attempt a Utopia will always end in a Dystopia. Humans are flawed and imperfect beings and the imperfect cannot create perfection.
Brave New World In most dystopias, dissidence gets you killed. In Brave New World, you are shipped off to an island with other interesting troublemakers, where you cannot affect the larger society.
I just had a realization. We never see anyone or anything go to or come back from the island. For all we know, the island could be propaganda. Similar to how a dog goes to "live" on an "up-state farm"
@@alongfortheride1016 Lol, you are so right. However, since the state has such a monopoly on violence, I assumed they didn’t feel threatened by a small and secure island of dissidents. Like how they treated people on the reservations. Rather, I saw the island as more of a startup incubator for new ideas or technologies. Which the state could later assimilate into the larger dystopic system if deemed useful.
FR Socialist Dystopia for Hunger Games? Where there's a literal ruling class oppressing worker classes in various districts producing the capital goods? Words are literally meaningless and ragebait is all that matters. Gross.
@@dmfaccount1272 I can't afford to do cocaine while skydiving off a floating bus like the uber rich of today but that doesn't mean I can't afford some cool stuff. I'll certainly take being lower class in cyberpunk over living in District 12 from the hunger games or living in the Imperium of man.
@@dmfaccount1272 In practical terms it makes no difference if the wealth split is larger given how large it is now, its like the difference between swimming across one ocean or two. Right now you can afford the base level consumer stuff, maybe something a bit nicer if you have patience and save up. Cyberpunk is about the same in how it depicts the average person.
This is the first time I've seen anybody mention that a dystopia is not one system but any system taken to the extreme. Thank you sir 🙏 I'm betting on warrior ruler class next IRL
No. Hunger games is colonialism. Just because all dirstricts once belonged to the same country doesn’t mean that they aren’t colonised by the capitol. That’s like saying the US was part of england and thus not a colony. That’s like saying senegal wasn’t colonised by the friench because they were under the same government.
I am an artists here and one day expect to writte a comic or book or both and i dont know if its going to be shite or great, but if it is great, i will never stop thanking you for giving ne about the best world building ideas ever. If it is shite however don't worry I understand is probably because I'm a bad writer lol
Common denominator of every dystopia: no social mobility i. e. if you get assigned a role and you don't like it, you can't change it. If people can change their status, improve some aspects of life, then it is not a dystopia.
It really interesting how before the industrial revolution and the modern area, there is no social mobility but that's like calling kettle black when the power structure is defined by SOCIAL ROLES
You are assuming social roles are divorced from biology. The US military is filled with families that served for 5 to 6 generations. (Alienating those families caused a recruitment crisis).
That's sort the way America and the Roman Republic used to be where the lower classes have a say in government, the average man is capable of fighting, and income and land distribution were more even than most societies.
The best utopia option would be similar to that, namely ‘Distributism’, which was the preferred economic theory of Tolkien and GK Chesterton among others. Basically it takes the best of both capitalism and socialism while eliminating the concentration of power that occurs under both of them.
Problem is feudal Warrior Aristocracies always seem to eventually give way to mass infantry armies. In intensive war. Bureaucracy helps to organise large scale armies that wear down Warrior Aristocracy.
Training a squad of super-knights is worthless when a single thing explodes and takes them all out at the same time. Meanwhile the division of infantry grunts are the ones capable of sending tens of thousands of those 'things that explode' down range and are actually capable of holding territory.
Well, dune is actually a capitalist society with inherited capital. The great houses differ from other people in that they own a share in the extraction of melange, and nuclear weapons, where without it.
That depends on the way the technology works. It's possible to write a setting where an elite class of warriors would beat mass mobilization. Allot of stories say they're that but then fail when you consider the implications of their technology or try to account for the shear resources a modern nation state can throw at problems compared to a feudal state. So allot of fictional "warrior aristocracies" would fail if confronted with a modern nation state with similar tech but it's possible to write one and even possible for one to occur and compete with societies structure like modern nation states. It's just not possible in the real world with the weapons we have now, but the past was different and the future will also be different.
Holy shit, I had to check whether that "Silently Praying Woman cited for 'thoughtcrime'" headline was an Onion article or something. Only to find a near identical, yet seperate case. I'm pro-choice and an atheist but that's all kinds of fucked up.
@@miguelatkinson It's not even that it's religious crime. It's that to the outside observer she's just there, doing nothing, and that constitutes an offense because of her thoughts.
Restrictions on religious rights usually signal that all the others are on the chopping block. It's the political version of the canary in the coal mine.
I would love the sci fi medieval ism of Star Wars or Dune. Only problem is I couldn't climb the social ladder as easily if at all. I also love that quote from the SWTOR trailer. "You’re privilege is the dirt. You're birth right is loss." It's so edgy and gritty in a cool way😂
It posits the question in which form of dehumnization do I choose to an accendent social role in a social structure Spiritual, material, mortal, or mental.
@soldier22881 that may be, but the word originates from the combination of tbe particle "u-" (meaning no or negation) and the greek word "topos" meaning place, quite literally (adhearing only to its etimology) "nowhere" I also recognize that there is a typo on my original coment, my bad
@@ChandelordChandel-wi6hx Thomas Moore, the guy mentioned in the video actually invented the word Utopia. It's a play on a greek word which means good place. But it's entirely made up. The main comment was correct. Utopia does mean "No Place". Utopia as a stand in for "Imagined" Or "Ideal" was something we later attribute to the word but not exactly it's original intention.
Since you asked, if I had to choose a dystopia, it'd definitely be one with a warrior aristocracy. My second choice would be cyberpunk. I would just join a monastery or play into the system until I make enough money to found an Amish-Hoppean covenant community of self-sufficient Luddite Protestants. Notice how we only see what cyberpunk looks like in the cities. I imagine rural areas will be more intact.
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120 One guy's wasteland is another's paradise. Like in present times, how living in bumfuck nowhere is an insult instead of what it should be : a blessing to be envied.
@@weeaboobaguette3943 Think less wild west dry land and more mad max with the law of the fittest being the only law out there while the cities are beacons of safety and order at the cost of your freedom, you may live free in the outlands but its going to be a short one
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120in current days - people like to mock US "flyover" states instead of realizing that its a paradise for those who would like to be self sufficient - low price for land, low taxes, low govt. And you can keep your guns. As eastern european I would take that vs any metropolis life.
WhatIfAltHist talked about the whole balance of power in many of his videos. What made Europe rise to such heights was that the various ruling classes were balanced in power, while in the other Eurasian Civilizations one or two ruling classes had coopted their cultures and led them to stagnate.
i agree with You that Brave New World is by far the MOST Distopian, because is actually a Nice place to live: is clean, orderly and people are happy, Even if there is no freedom. And that the scary part, You would WANT the Dystopia
I actually talked with someone who was intrigued by the 1984 form of dystopia, and I tried to share how the brave new world dystopia was worse since it made you want the dystopia with all the pleasures involved, but he wasn’t very receptive.
@@killianmiller6107 They weren't receptive because that's a stupid fucking argument "Would you rather live in forever-war torture land or have the government bankroll your gooning habits?" peak pseud tbqhfamlam
@@killianmiller6107 no the worst dystopia is one that you hate but have been conditioned to think you love it. And the conditioning is so strong that you essentially can’t function unless you believe this lie, and if you stop believing it then they rid of you and nobody would notice.
This is the best breakdown of what dystopia is that I've ever seen. I'm definitely using all this to rethink the book of protopian short sci-fi stories that I'm writing right now. The power imbalance of social roles as the starting point where things go wrong, and the extent of dehumanization as being the key metric of dystopianism, those are some pretty useful concepts. PS: Protopianism is positing that the actually realistic and desirable way of making the future better is focusing on making small immediate helpful steps forward in constructive directions, rather than focusing on any sort of ideal perfect end state of society. It's especially not compatible with pitting any class against any other class or trying to do dramatic revolutions.
I think that’s a good idea it’s probably why Petersons “clean your room” became such a hard hitting meme we have people out here trying to upend major inequalities who individually aren’t even practicing being nice to their mother
@@velstadtvonausterlitz2338 Just let people enjoy the works of art they are passionate about. Calling the wholesome appreciation of an art 'cringe' is not cool, it's rude and disrespectful. 😡
Maybe the best way to prevent dystopia is to remember the Stanford prison experiment. You are not your role or class, you're an individual, roles and class are responsibilities not identities. Not a perfect solution, but its the best I can think of...
It helps, but that leads to the realisation that we are shaped by our environment much more strongly than we would like to admit, which leads to doubting the existence of free will, which leads to consequentialism. Then again, everything leads to consequentialism. You think intent is the only important factor? Then you must want more good intentions in the world. So the best action would be to create a situation that maximizes good intentions. But if you do act like thatthat, you're acting based on consequences, which means you're an accidental consequentialist.
The Stanford prison experiment was faked it has never been replicated and the data was manipulated in a way to prove what the guy wanted to prove and not what would have happened.
Yep, lets remember the most cringe and antiscientific experiment, in which so called scientist on a daily basis provoked participants, and won't let them go, unless they will actor their way out of it. Experiment, which got debunked by every participants. Experiment in which participant faked meltdown, only to be able to go on some exam. No, let the Stanford prison experiment, aside with summer camp experiment, be thrown away in a historical waste bin
@@levongevorgyan6789 I agree but would say it's a matter of degrees. It depends on which faction and when. The crusader clans during the clan invasion are pretty much the quintessential example though.
A warrior caste system where you can legitimately murder your way to the top as long as you call it a batchall Funnily enough, when the people in charge only know how to fight they don't see the inherent issues in an 800 light year supply chain After all, you don't need knowledge of grand-scale logistics to AC20 a cockpit window...
This is a great analysis. It's nice that you also put out your biases, and still made a very level-headed discussion of it all, even on topics that run counter to your beliefs. Rare to find. Also Cyberpunk is the best. We're basically already living it. At least I can get cool tech too.
I am transgender. I am also intersex. I am not transgender because of bureaucracy. I am transgender *in spite of it* I am sorry if they are weaponizing my genuine needs in ways that affect you. I don’t control what they do. I still have those needs. Most of my worst problems around it are a result of the fact that when I was born some doctor or nurse glanced at my genitals and then decided how I should live my life for me, because 99% of the time that works for people. I am one of the exceptions. I was assigned male at birth. I do not see myself as male. About halfway through puberty my body stopped doing puberty. My voice never dropped. I never developed an Adam’s apple. I developed b cup breasts. My genitals did not fully develop. I have since taken actions to consensually change my body to match what you might call my “inner self.” You say you are or were a trad Catholic? Then I hope you understand the idea of a person having something deep inside of them they cannot fully explain which is so powerful they have no real choice but to follow it. I get it if you feel like you are being brainwashed or forced to accept a state ideology. Let’s agree: these people are shit. What they do to both of us is shitty. I am not asking them to hurt you. I am asking you to respect my humanity. I am not an abstract academic concept. I am not a birth certificate or a couple of chromosomes. I am not a simple label like “male” or “female” because my body and sense of self do not care about them. Please don’t give them more power over me by making my documentation mean more than my lived experience, or by reducing me to what other people say about me when I’m not there.
Yeah, I was gonna say that this video being anti-trans made it pretty easy to dismiss. The idea that bureaucrats want to use trans people to control what everyone else thinks is some Jordan Peterson level nonsense. It's just the latest in conservative backlashes to human rights. We did this with gay people and we did this with the civil rights era. Not to mention the idea that treating people the same is somehow a means of controlling people. That definitely collapsed into nonsense pretty quickly. And there was no real response to the paradox of tolerance. Just "it's mush"? Ok, what do you disagree with exactly? If you tolerate an intolerant view, like gay people shouldn't be allowed to exist in society, you are necessarily being intolerant of gay people. Thus you're being intolerant even though you were trying to be tolerant. It's like how democracy can not survive an anti-democratic party being elected. It's the paradox of democracy.
I would say Battletech as a whole. The Inner Sphere is a feudalistic society given how hard is to destroy a mech making warrior class thrive and possible. Currently the decline of warrior class is because how easy to kill a nobleman or possible soldier that could be a future noble with modern guns.
I'd argue all of Battletech is a warrior dystopia. The Houses of the Inner Sphere get their power from their warrior mechs. Maybe Comstar has more of a religious bent, especially with the word of blake fanatics, but the rest of the factions are all Noble Houses, like in Dune. The Clans represent a more primitive warrior culture attacking a more established one, like the Mongols or Vikings attacking the established Kingdoms of Europe and hte Middle East.
@@levongevorgyan6789 Well the video did argue that feudal dystopia is the least dystopic society. It's still battletech does has some element of dystopia given that the Capellan Confederation exist and it's is a mix of bureaucratic dystopia in the sea of feudal dystopia. Average civilian dies in Battletech due to the ambition of elites of the Inner Sphere. Comstar is the bureaucratic and scholar elements of SLDF that still exist after the civil war but it slowly turn into another theocratic-bureaucratic dystopic faction in the setting.
@@levongevorgyan6789it's a fundamental misunderstanding that the houses derive their power from the battlemechs. The houses are ancient families that hold overwhelming economic , political and military power. Battlemechs are de facto an inefficient weapon on a strategic scale but very efficient in small scale tactical warfare. They minimize collateral damage and thus minimize the negative impact of warfare on trade and infrastructure. If anything mech combat is more civilized than the warfare of today where cluster munitions are used to carpet bomb civilian population centers because some extremists fired a sugar rocket from a random backyard.
I'd really love to hear your take on Transformers One. Not only is it a good brothers-to-enemies movie, I think there are some interesting insights on divine right and tyranny that could be taken from it. Thanks!
For it does have social issue it hatred between both class ,caste or two group where Cybertron live in good lives in cities and whereas decepticons living in bad lives but still live together there still discrimination exist between them where decepticons have face they rebel want dignity but megatrons hatred let Cybertron deception war where thousands died even planet destroy megatrons become tranny it show how from First it was peaceful they just right one leader spread hatred use that for gain to live tranny just like how real world leader use they protect group so he get political rule
This was the best breakdown I’ve ever seen and honestly if there’s a book correlated with this type of breakdown I’d love a recommendation. Blew it out of the water man, recommended this video to some friends. Thank you for the video
I think the biggest cause of failure is seeking to solve all of the problems. We don't live for the solutions, we live for the problem-solving process. If you want to craft a utopia, it needs to give people things to do, and those things need to feel like freedom and productivity.
Scifi neo-feudalism would be the most livable imo Even though I love the cyberpunk aesthetic especially when in the 80s like blade runner or ghost in the shell
18:30 "Imagine _Percy Jackson_ and _The Hunger Games_ had a kid who became an edgy Political Science student at _Dune_ University and played _waaaay_ too much _Warhammer 40,000_ with his buddies." ... Okay. You have my attention.
He's talking about the Red Rising series and it's very good! It does start out a bit 'young adult' but it finds its footing. I'm currently on the fifth book and am really enjoying it!
V for Vendetta already completely misrepresents the facts. The most-coddled group of all time IRL gets portrayed as victims in that movie. The bullies posing as victims, as always.
@@NostalgicGamerRickOShaybro what are you on about? It’s a story about anarchy vs totalitarianism which is the coddled group? And tho sure the anarchist V is portrayed as the protagonist it dosnt even fully agree anarchy would be better. Unless you mean the film in which case it’s a lot less complicated and is more of a modern liberal take on overthrowing a fascist and racist government in which case again don’t get the criticism as yes putting people in concentration camps is in deed bad
I've struggled to figure out the dystopia setting of my own story for awhile now, having different conflicting ideas that I'd like to incorporate. This video was great and gave me a much better idea of where to go with it!
Wanted to thank the author for giving me a new perspective on social structure, dynamics with his videos. Especially, on the ways of humanity's progress. You are partially responsible for my appreciation of Warhammer setting, your videos on that topic helped me to look at it from another angle, and to actually like that ridiculous universe.
As someone who lives in a country where the warrior class is in charge, it is true that people generally think that soldiers are cool. Luckily, the beaurocrats are also pretty high up. So everything is nice and efficient so far.
@crusader2112 You're welcome. By the way, when I said it is nice, I mean't in a peaceful, secure, tranquil type of way. People from places like the USA, where there is less government oversight (more crime but more excitement), might not enjoy it as much.
He was quite clear about why it wasn't a dystopia in the video. There's no active direct pressures of mass dehumanization occuring in the Mad Max setting. Go back to the first film and they go on a family picnic and Max has a relatively normal day job. The world is messed up, but it's not a dystopia.
In Egypt the Priest were also the Scientist. They created Gemstones and Metal alloys no one else had. Its where we get Chemistry from as its the Land of Khem. Maybe that is the Key to a powerful society. The ruling class needs to be a conglomeration of all classes. It not only allows lowers to rise through the ranks by mastery of the skills of other classes but makes the ruling class viewed as powerful by all those in every class as they are masters of all and worthy of respect.
We'll get 1984 long before we get Cyberpunk. The managerial class has all the cards, and is currently able to pick and choose the winners in the merchant class. Meanwhile, the merchants that you believe will become the supercorps of tomorrow are busy buying off bureaucrats to maintain their status quo.
Nah. We're leaning towards a theocracy. The evangelicals in the US will have all the power as of January 2025 and they'll quickly ban anything science-y that goes against their wretched dogma.
Eh, the threat of coup from Warriors becomes ever-present. Cyberpunk dystopia is enabled by the political gridlock of the age of liberalism, I don't know how long that'll last. Some day people will realize the primal truth of blood, steel & fire as the supreme dictators; not suits in boardrooms.
If you liked Priest, have you read "A Bloody Habit" by Eleanor Bourg Nicholson? It's also about vampire hunting priests, but with sound theology. Seriously.
Listened to this while i did the washing up and then made tuna pasta, listened to the whole video. Very insightful and gave me a lot to think about, it also changed my perspective on a few things. I love how well thought out this was great video, liked and subbed
Pilgrim, I need the title of your book. It sounds like a completely unhinged variant of a mad quest to kill a god (the satanic cult in this one), which would be better than most dystopian novels.
This is such a good video! After so much blah blah about this or that, I was provoked to rethink ideas I thought I had found answers for. Thank you for making me question again.
I am surprised that His Dark Materials isn't mentioned in this video, since it fits well with the Theocratic Dystopia since the antagonistic Magisterium/the Church was Theocratic in its enforcement of its values, and also, they deem anyone heretics to go against them. It's interesting how they implement the fantastical elements like Dust and Daemons. Since they saw Dust as the source of free thought which what caused the First Sin by Adam and Eve. We know that it is bullish but that just shows how tight the Magisterium wanted to control everything in twisted Theocratic means. Note I am Christian myself, and I find the Magisterium as a warning to any religion from going extreme especially in how that can lead to twisted interpretations if they're not checked. Oh and also, I wish you could also analyse this very interesting case with Imperial Japan since that nation had elements found in both Warrior and Theocratic Dystopias with the former Samurai class taking over major positions in Japan's military which influenced in Japan's militarism and expansion. And deifying and worshiping the Emperor of Japan as a living God, and obviously any one who opppose would be viewed a heretic. Japan is a very weird and interesting take in this. Great video btw.
Honey, wake up. Pilgrims Pass uploaded. Epic video. The Warrior Aristocracy or Cyberpunk might be the best to live in, but a cyberpunk merchant-led world commodifies everything and modern warfare doesn’t mix well with the warrior aristocracy. (Rip Kaiser Karl) I agree, the classes must and need to work together for a society to truly prosper. Great video 👍 Peace ✌🏻
I know it was only mentioned a few times but I crackled with excitement every time he mentioned Red Rising. God I love that series, it is by far my favorite sci fi series ever. Hail Reaper!
Thank you for this awesome video thesis! What an inspiring video! To add one more thing, the first ever considered utopia should be the Republic by Plato, which suggests a society ruled by philosophers (you may say the joint of bureaucracy and Theocracy).
Yeah, like it's a pretty naked critique of capitalism 1984 is also a critique of Stalinism, not socialism, considering George Orwell was a Democratic Socialist and never renounced Socialism
A new Pilgrims Pass video-essay? Boy, Christmas DID come early this year! Jokes aside, I love your content. Thank you for all the work you do! ❤ Edit: I wrote the comment about as soon as I clicked on the video. But after watching it- (And noting down pages of it) Oh Dear. This one is Great. I wish more people followed you.
Yea, just steal everything from socialism, but dilute it and make it soulless and as profitable as possible and call it "crapitalism." "Free market" 101
The one of Orwell isn't about socialism, is about f*scism, he also fought on the Spanish Civil war at the side of the Socialists and he wrote what he imagined it could be a society who never learned from the horrible things of f*scism. Please don't spread disinformation, the only thing Orwell was against was Stalin, as most of communists were against him too (Ex. Yugoslavia). His vision was mostly against authoritarism, at any kind, but he wasn't against socialism.
This was so bloody interesting I had to watch it twice! At work! Thanks for the added booklist; want to partake and consider. And I agree that "Priest" is a magnificent film; needs more love and (why not?) perhaps a series of films. Subscribed.
Battletech actually has all types of these Dystopias in it. Let me show you. Bureaucratic dystopia: Capellan Confederation and Draconis Combine Capitalist Dystopia: Free Worlds League and Magistracy of Canopus Theocratic Dystopia: Comstar and Word of Blake, the Society Warrior dystopia: The Clans It is honestly what makes the setting so interesting, you have different kinds of dystopias intersecting.
As with most of you videos I agree with most of what you say, but you solution is again too straight forward. "Ethics" being necessary for a functioning society is what you would call the "priest class" exercising their vision of society. Ethics are not fundamental, what is ethical one day might be unethical the next. But yes, balance is the key to a healthy society and human health in general
You fucked up hard with the socialism thing at 11:20. Utopian Socialism (a.k.a premarxist socialism) is a completely different movement than marxist, materialist socialism. Marx was an open critic of utopian ideals, even if you think his work could be adopted as utopic by the eastern regimes.
Interesting how different "main" gamelines of World of Darkness tabletop RPGs have these different types of dystopia as "the crushing system": Vampire: the Masquarade - the warrior class dystopia of hyper powerful acient vampire mafia bosses, where power is often corresponding heavily with actual combat prowess, where the weak are simply pawns and the only pernament way to advancing is to take this personal power directly for yourself by defeating (either directly or any being clever) someone more powerful and literally devouring their soul. Mage the Ascension - the beurocratic type. Technocracy is the shadow cabal that promises progress in technology, but seeks the complete control, crushing individuality and wants to turn everyone into cog in the machine by eventually spiritually lobotomizing entire humanity (they are also commonly treated on Reddit as "actual good guys", because their opponents are "qanon antivaxxers" and "science is good", ignoring the fact that there are science-oriented mage traditions opposing the Technocracy) Werewolf the Apocalypse - combo of merchant and theocratic, there is Pentex the megacorp secretly filled with supernatural weirdoes, they making a lot of money and are spiritually alligned with the forces that are opposing the Earth itself and as such, the Pentex seeks to destroy the environment both for profit (which gives influence) and for the sake of it. Its honestly kinda cartoonish, but again, the game itself has a reputation of "that game where you play as a furry Ted Kaczynski". (this game also tends to bring critcism on Reddit, despite anti-capitalism and environmentalism because "science technology good" and werewolves themselves are rather... VERY much anti-modernity) I am generally noticing the trend when the "gameline evil establishment" comes of as more "modern" than player characters, Redditors often see the fundamental problem (notice how Vampire the Masquarade, the gameline that has the least controvercy over its basic premise have "the evil establishment" being essentially pre-modern might-makes-right people who were often literally born in pre-modern times, while the player-friendly opposition to them is way more "modern"), despite in the setting itself none of player character groups are really "the good guys", just mostly desiring its own interests.
In _Werewolf,_ I'd argue the whole thing is theocratic. Pentex is, indeed, a corporation, but it's under the control of a theocratic elite, and the werewolf tribes as a whole are also theocratic, though not all to the same extent. Mind, it makes a difference when your patron deity actually does stuff. I'd argue about _Mage,_ since the default PC mage groups are closer to religious orders, but mages are still humans, and that means however they believe reality 'actually' works, they're forced to spend most of their lives in the consensus reality created and maintained by the Technocracy.
(15:26) This wasn't actually true for large portions of Chinese history, and throughout Chinese history social ranks have shifted greatly. Initially, during the Western Zhou, under the social system known as the 國野制, soldiers were equal to the scholar-bureaucrats, and merchants and artisans were placed above peasants, but with the abolition of the 國野制, the peasants began to rise in social status. When the Legalist Qin Dynasty came to power, they placed merchants and artisans below peasants, as they wanted the population to consist of an impoverished peasantry stuck to their land to reduce their power relative to the government, and the existence of merchants threatened this. The rise of the Eastern Han relied on the merchant class' rebellion again Wang Mang, and their social status started to rise again, but when the Eastern Han began to collapse, the social status of both merchants and soldiers began to do so as well, however the equal-field system of the Northern Wei created a hereditary military caste and restored the high social status of the soldiers. This social system remained in place until the late Tang Dynasty, when the powerful imperial aristocracy disappeared and the military seized power and elevated themselves above the scholar-bureaucrats. Shortly afterward, after the Song Dynasty reunited China, the military lost power again, and in reaction to their abuse of power over the past century, the soldiers were dropped to the bottom of the social ladder, while the rise of commerce meant that merchants and artisans started to rise up the social ladder once more, until by the late Ming Dynasty they were more or less equal to peasants.
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Care to explain the discrimination and transphobia at 29:16? Accepting and respecting gender identity isn't some socialist/communist/bureaucratic dystopian belief.
Capitalist Dystopia is more "human" than Theocratic Dystopia btw. Theocratic dystopia pays more lip-service to the human experience than the Capitalist dystopia, but in actual practice it oppresses things such as aesthetic, desire & vitality into nothingness. It grinds everything to a rigid halt in much the same way as the Bureaucratic dystopia, except through non-secular means (in fact, the Theocratic & Bureaucratic are mostly the same dystopia; the only difference being their secularism or lack-thereof.) Ascetism/Restriction is the ultimate ideal of both worlds.
Capitalist dystopia focuses less overtly on the human experience, but manages to keep it intact and even push it to extreme boundaries. Cyberpunk worlds are full of adventure, beauty, anarchy, intensity, ambition, the highs & lows of life etc. Mega-Corps are even 'pseudo-feudal' if you will, a sort of pale mimicry of the houses that would arise in a Warrior Dystopia (IE. the "most human" of all dystopia).
Define rfeemarket.Has such thing over exist? And if so, is sustainable on the long term?
Zz svsv
Capitalist Dystopia is more "human" than Theocratic Dystopia btw. Theocratic dystopia pays more lip-service to the human experience than the Capitalist dystopia, but in actual practice it oppresses things such as aesthetic, desire & vitality into nothingness. It grinds everything to a rigid halt in much the same way as the Bureaucratic dystopia, except through non-secular means (in fact, the Theocratic & Bureaucratic are mostly the same dystopia; the only difference being their secularism or lack-thereof.) Ascetism/Restriction is the ultimate ideal of both worlds.
Capitalist dystopia focuses less overtly on the human experience, but manages to keep it intact and even push it to extreme boundaries. Cyberpunk worlds are full of adventure, beauty, anarchy, intensity, ambition, the highs & lows of life etc. Mega-Corps are even 'pseudo-feudal' if you will, a sort of pale mimicry of the houses that would arise in a Warrior Dystopia (IE. the "most human" of all dystopia), which lends credence to them being closer in proximity.
Bold statement, to call the Hunger Games a socialist dystopia lol
The people are not working, they are dying. Hardly instrumental to providing more capital in the factories.
@dansmith1661 The Hunger Games regime is supposed to be fascistic capitalism; there is no ideology of class abolition, there is quite literally a class of wealthy people which is not only ideologically justified by the government but celebrated yearly with child sacrifices
@@dansmith1661 There's not that much work to do when it's all automated with machinery. Part of advanced capitalism is keeping the people from over-producing so that once the rich take all they want, there is nothing left over for the poor.
@@dansmith1661 people do work in the Hunger Games. The main character is kind of pissed that her mom won't get a job after the dad died, so Katniss has to take care of Prim and her mom...They are told to worship the state. The guy from the District 2 talks about bringing glory to his district.
@@FMJIRISH Socialism, also known as Economic Collectivism/Statism or Command Economy, is when the State -in the name of the "public"- officially owns most or all of the means of production and industries, and centrally conducts the planning of production and the allocation of resources/commodities/goods/services across the citizenry, instead of an unregulated price system and civil market participants spontaneously carrying out these functions in a mostly privatized economic climate. So the totalitarian Panem government technically fits the academically accepted definition of Socialism as exemplified by the real-world USSR.
40k is so much more than a theocracy. The state church has great power, yes, but so does the military and the aptly named Administratum. Mechanicus is a parallel theotechnocratic society. If anything, humanity in 40k is characterised by having a relatively weak merchant class, although the rogue traders might be inclined to disagree.
Approximately 90% of all the voidcraft with interstellar capabilities in Human-controlled spacea are merchant ships.
The merchant class is thriving and numerous.
@@winzyl9546 so basically the imperium of man is a schizophrenic intermingling of all four types of dystopia described in the video?
@@Celtic_Spartan that's what you got when the setting is the whole fucking galaxy.
The 40 lK imperium of man is a constructed worst of all possible worlds at once having an orgy. It is mostly fascist, but not afraid to borrow from other bad systems.
So a weirdly centralized and decentralized system? Like premodern feudal society?
I was so tripped out rn I saw the title thinking this this a whatifalthist video, and spent 30 seconds wondering why his voice sound strange.
Wth I watch Whatifalthist as well
Same bro it's literally Rudyard's style
😂😂😂
Hello fellow gentlemen
ahahahahahah, this guys the OG, love pilgrim.
Makes sense; the subject matters are pretty similar.
"Ethics removed from war with the Prussian's invention of total war"
You mean the French with the introduction of levée en masse and modern industrial war. Prussian military reforms took their cues from ol' Boney. (and so on)
I recommend JFC Fuller's The Conduct of War 1789-1961 on this subject.
Once again it's the French who are to blame
So the French are to blame? Well its business as usual then.
@@lukasvillar9328 The French revolutionised warfare, it is not a blame but a crown.
@@erwanmarie8756based
"Good intentions matter not, only good deeds." JRR Tolkien.
The road to hell is pathed with good intentions. The road to heaven with good actions.
@@speedy01247 Do you think Hitler and his Nazis or Stalin and his Bolsheviks considered their countries dystopias? No.
How do you know if your deed is good?
The immediate outcome? The long term downstream outcome?
What about a deed of evil intent that saves lives?
Utilitarian (outcome of the action) ethics really gets fuzzy when we look at actions that are good on the short term, but long term, down stream, indirectly cause immense harm. If for example I save someone's life, but that person becomes someone that deleted a large number of people, then in totality, my action made great horrors possible. But in the short term I saved a life. The long term, indirect, and big picture makes things more complicated.
"A good deed" is questionable, was it an action that itself was good, or the outcome? Bender attempting to fill in as God kept trying to help the small people living on his metal frame, but the more he did the worse things became. When he asked the huge giant computer if what he did was right the cryptic response was "right and wrong are only words, it is what you do that is important" which is true but does not really answer the question.
Furthermore, it is implied but not stated that Bender was sent back with the experience to free the Monks from the laundry closet. The point is "good deeds" can have horrible consequences. Horrible deeds can cause more good than harm, even if by sheer accident.
@@user-nu8in3ey8c Sounds like utilitarian ethics closely match reality, reality is a fuzzy and confusing mess too.
Why didn’t the eagles just fly the ringbearer to mount doom? “Uh, err, well, um… SHUT UP.” - JRR Tolkien
"The ends never justify the means, because nothing ever ends." - DJ Peach Cobbler
Based
Based as fuck
Which one of cobblers videos is that from?
@@dylanaltland215 I Think One Of His Aztec Videos
Cross over episode
I find it interesting how so many dystopias are masked as Utopias. I also find it interesting how the Utopia mask is completely reliant on the dystopia underneath in order to exist.
I think that the forced implementation of utopian ideas is what causes the dystopia.
@@NIGBEATSvery well put
@@NIGBEATSit’s also the fact that everyone’s version of the perfect place is different
Utopia is greek derivative word meaninf "no land" so when you try to preach for reaching something that is not there - you waste somebodies else reources until everythibg rots..
@@NIGBEATSUtopia is an impossibility and always will be. Therfore every attempt a Utopia will always end in a Dystopia.
Humans are flawed and imperfect beings and the imperfect cannot create perfection.
Brave New World
In most dystopias, dissidence gets you killed. In Brave New World, you are shipped off to an island with other interesting troublemakers, where you cannot affect the larger society.
Brave New World is both utopia and dystopia. You can even argue it is not dystopia at all.
I just had a realization. We never see anyone or anything go to or come back from the island. For all we know, the island could be propaganda. Similar to how a dog goes to "live" on an "up-state farm"
@@alongfortheride1016 Lol, you are so right.
However, since the state has such a monopoly on violence, I assumed they didn’t feel threatened by a small and secure island of dissidents. Like how they treated people on the reservations.
Rather, I saw the island as more of a startup incubator for new ideas or technologies. Which the state could later assimilate into the larger dystopic system if deemed useful.
@Tullochr105 I like that. It not only makes sense for the state to do, but it's entirely consistent, seeing as the reservations exist. Bravo!
sooooo The British Empire, As they send trouble makers to Australia?
This is what no media literacy does to a mf
MUH MEDIA LITERACY
@@Yoosech9712 You are a child
FR Socialist Dystopia for Hunger Games? Where there's a literal ruling class oppressing worker classes in various districts producing the capital goods? Words are literally meaningless and ragebait is all that matters. Gross.
what does this even mean
@@Yoosech9712cringe.
Hunger Games is not socialism or communism. It's a form of capitalism.
Because why
@@abbacab77have you ever seen the START OF THE FIRST MOVIE?? WHY THEY FIGHT?? THE HIGHLY EXPENSIVE INTERIORS AND SECTORS??
I'd go for cyberpunk dystopia - mostly because we're already there but we're missing the cool stuff that comes along with it.
You wouldn't be able to afford the cool stuff, you would be poor and the rich people would be cyber gods.
@@dmfaccount1272 I can't afford to do cocaine while skydiving off a floating bus like the uber rich of today but that doesn't mean I can't afford some cool stuff. I'll certainly take being lower class in cyberpunk over living in District 12 from the hunger games or living in the Imperium of man.
@@dmfaccount1272probably could, half the stuff in cyberpunk is ease enough to get.
@@plmokm33 the wealth split wouldn't be the same as it is now,
@@dmfaccount1272 In practical terms it makes no difference if the wealth split is larger given how large it is now, its like the difference between swimming across one ocean or two. Right now you can afford the base level consumer stuff, maybe something a bit nicer if you have patience and save up. Cyberpunk is about the same in how it depicts the average person.
There are no solutions, only trade offs - Thomas Sowell
True even for dystopia
Wrong, if humanity is so messed up with every system then we may as well say that we do not deserve to live. There are solutions, I have two.
If you think evolution is true, there can be no single correct system of governance.
@@Multi1So if utopia isn't possible, we should all just minecraft? That's a pretty bleak outlook friend.
@@Multi1 then we should follow the system of the wild animals
@@Multi1 Ah, very inspiring. You should be the example for us.
This is the first time I've seen anybody mention that a dystopia is not one system but any system taken to the extreme. Thank you sir 🙏 I'm betting on warrior ruler class next IRL
No. Hunger games is colonialism. Just because all dirstricts once belonged to the same country doesn’t mean that they aren’t colonised by the capitol. That’s like saying the US was part of england and thus not a colony. That’s like saying senegal wasn’t colonised by the friench because they were under the same government.
You defeated your initial statement with your examples of comparison.
LMAO HUNGER GAMES SOCIALISM
_"The ends can never justify the means, because nothing ever ends."_
-- *DJ Peach Cobbler*
I like that a lot
DJ PC is more of a philosopher than even he himself believes
That sound awfully like Dr.Manhattan
Honestly he’s pretty good at making idiots like me understand some stuff that happened
Great quote!
Nicely done. I had not thought of it explicitly in terms of those four classes before.
Great to see you here!
Old head, you're here. The west is truly saved
@@PilgrimsPass hey what's the name of the movie you took the clip of a guy being murdered by chinese radicals in the theocracy section?
@@PilgrimsPass where is the Communist Dystopia?
@@Celtic_Spartan its the Netflix adaptation of the Three body problem.
I do like you point out the irony of the Cyberpunk genre, both in and out of the story.
Meanwhile, I only got on to say that if Fallout Tactics is cannon, the Fallout world was saved from an AI apocalypse by a nuclear apocalypse.
That's different. They're high elves - they're naturally divine.
Truer words never spoken
I am an artists here and one day expect to writte a comic or book or both and i dont know if its going to be shite or great, but if it is great, i will never stop thanking you for giving ne about the best world building ideas ever.
If it is shite however don't worry I understand is probably because I'm a bad writer lol
Godspeed on your endeavors! I'm sure you'll do great.
Don’t forget the secret fifth one…
An Idiocracy!
And the sixth one:
WE ARE THE BORG. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
"The idiots will take over the world. Not because they're competent, but because of their numbers"
oh i love the idiocracies, my favourite one is _(insert group that you don't like here)_
insert modern politics joke here
Common denominator of every dystopia: no social mobility i. e. if you get assigned a role and you don't like it, you can't change it. If people can change their status, improve some aspects of life, then it is not a dystopia.
Well social Mobility is one thing but it means squat if your only options are the bottom or top of the shit pile.
@@namastereciprocity4549 what you describe is beyond dystopia. If social mobility brings you nowhere and everwhere is bad for everyone: this is hell
You have quite a lot of mobility in cyberpunk. Just not very far upwards.
It really interesting how before the industrial revolution and the modern area, there is no social mobility but that's like calling kettle black when the power structure is defined by SOCIAL ROLES
You are assuming social roles are divorced from biology. The US military is filled with families that served for 5 to 6 generations. (Alienating those families caused a recruitment crisis).
By process of elimination, the only "Utopia" is one where the peasants have gained too much power...that just sounds like the Shire.
That's sort the way America and the Roman Republic used to be where the lower classes have a say in government, the average man is capable of fighting, and income and land distribution were more even than most societies.
The best utopia option would be similar to that, namely ‘Distributism’, which was the preferred economic theory of Tolkien and GK Chesterton among others. Basically it takes the best of both capitalism and socialism while eliminating the concentration of power that occurs under both of them.
That’s just called living safely in a small town.
@@connormcphillips9008 "But that's socialism/communism, not my America"
@@winzyl9546 I’m not saying everything was equal just that the common man had a lot more power than normal compared to the elite
Problem is feudal Warrior Aristocracies always seem to eventually give way to mass infantry armies. In intensive war. Bureaucracy helps to organise large scale armies that wear down Warrior Aristocracy.
Training a squad of super-knights is worthless when a single thing explodes and takes them all out at the same time. Meanwhile the division of infantry grunts are the ones capable of sending tens of thousands of those 'things that explode' down range and are actually capable of holding territory.
Well, dune is actually a capitalist society with inherited capital. The great houses differ from other people in that they own a share in the extraction of melange, and nuclear weapons, where without it.
@@everwinter0 you can be capitalist and feudal at the same time...
That depends on the way the technology works. It's possible to write a setting where an elite class of warriors would beat mass mobilization. Allot of stories say they're that but then fail when you consider the implications of their technology or try to account for the shear resources a modern nation state can throw at problems compared to a feudal state. So allot of fictional "warrior aristocracies" would fail if confronted with a modern nation state with similar tech but it's possible to write one and even possible for one to occur and compete with societies structure like modern nation states. It's just not possible in the real world with the weapons we have now, but the past was different and the future will also be different.
The bureaucratic managerial class by definition totalitarian in mature
Holy shit, I had to check whether that "Silently Praying Woman cited for 'thoughtcrime'" headline was an Onion article or something. Only to find a near identical, yet seperate case.
I'm pro-choice and an atheist but that's all kinds of fucked up.
Yes restricting peoples religious rights are bad
@@miguelatkinson It's not even that it's religious crime. It's that to the outside observer she's just there, doing nothing, and that constitutes an offense because of her thoughts.
Restrictions on religious rights usually signal that all the others are on the chopping block. It's the political version of the canary in the coal mine.
the worst dystopia was ours all along
Christianity is dystopian too. If you think things their god doesn't like you get damned to hell.
Bro called the hunger games socialist lol😂
Media literacy is dead
I would love the sci fi medieval ism of Star Wars or Dune. Only problem is I couldn't climb the social ladder as easily if at all.
I also love that quote from the SWTOR trailer. "You’re privilege is the dirt. You're birth right is loss." It's so edgy and gritty in a cool way😂
There's also the Neo Feudilism of Battletech.
Lol 90% of people into monarchy and fuedalism...it would be great, just not for me and my lower class background
It posits the question in which form of dehumnization do I choose to an accendent social role in a social structure
Spiritual, material, mortal, or mental.
Not long after I uninstalled that game from my computer.
That was a cool line, pity I couldn't get into KOTFE and KOTET, those expansions felt lame to me, none of the characters were likeable to me at all.
Fun fact: etymologically, "utopia" means "nowhere ("u-": no // "-topia": place)
false the actual definition is:
an *imagined* place or an ideal place
both it and dystopia are imagined with dystopia being a less ideal place.
@soldier22881 that may be, but the word originates from the combination of tbe particle "u-" (meaning no or negation) and the greek word "topos" meaning place, quite literally (adhearing only to its etimology) "nowhere"
I also recognize that there is a typo on my original coment, my bad
And yet the typical negation in Greek is “a” I thought utopia was eutopia like eudaimonia (good place, like good life).
@@ChandelordChandel-wi6hx Utopia is abbreviated from Eutopia, from eu- "good."
@@ChandelordChandel-wi6hx Thomas Moore, the guy mentioned in the video actually invented the word Utopia. It's a play on a greek word which means good place. But it's entirely made up. The main comment was correct. Utopia does mean "No Place". Utopia as a stand in for "Imagined" Or "Ideal" was something we later attribute to the word but not exactly it's original intention.
Since you asked, if I had to choose a dystopia, it'd definitely be one with a warrior aristocracy.
My second choice would be cyberpunk. I would just join a monastery or play into the system until I make enough money to found an Amish-Hoppean covenant community of self-sufficient Luddite Protestants. Notice how we only see what cyberpunk looks like in the cities. I imagine rural areas will be more intact.
It’s said it’s only in cities where body modification is practiced, or at least where you go cyberpsycho
Not really since in most cyberpunk dystopias the countryside is usually a mix of wasteland or corporate controlled farmland
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120 One guy's wasteland is another's paradise.
Like in present times, how living in bumfuck nowhere is an insult instead of what it should be : a blessing to be envied.
@@weeaboobaguette3943 Think less wild west dry land and more mad max with the law of the fittest being the only law out there while the cities are beacons of safety and order at the cost of your freedom, you may live free in the outlands but its going to be a short one
@@lelagrangeeffectphysics4120in current days - people like to mock US "flyover" states instead of realizing that its a paradise for those who would like to be self sufficient - low price for land, low taxes, low govt. And you can keep your guns. As eastern european I would take that vs any metropolis life.
The socialism corner should be fascism to be more accurate.
2 sides of the same coin
@matthewmyers8587 what's the coin then Einstein?
Extensive government control over all aspects of society and no value on the rights of individuals
@@k0mm4nd3r_k3n
Authoritarianism is the coin.
@@matthewmyers8587 fascists do love crying like you
WhatIfAltHist talked about the whole balance of power in many of his videos.
What made Europe rise to such heights was that the various ruling classes were balanced in power, while in the other Eurasian Civilizations one or two ruling classes had coopted their cultures and led them to stagnate.
Bro cooked with the intro
i agree with You that Brave New World is by far the MOST Distopian, because is actually a Nice place to live: is clean, orderly and people are happy, Even if there is no freedom. And that the scary part, You would WANT the Dystopia
I actually talked with someone who was intrigued by the 1984 form of dystopia, and I tried to share how the brave new world dystopia was worse since it made you want the dystopia with all the pleasures involved, but he wasn’t very receptive.
In the show, even the Epsilons have higher living standards than most people in the developed world today.
I dunno man, it would get pretty disturbing when you're reminded you're not allowed to reject unwanted advances.
@@killianmiller6107 They weren't receptive because that's a stupid fucking argument "Would you rather live in forever-war torture land or have the government bankroll your gooning habits?" peak pseud tbqhfamlam
@@killianmiller6107 no the worst dystopia is one that you hate but have been conditioned to think you love it. And the conditioning is so strong that you essentially can’t function unless you believe this lie, and if you stop believing it then they rid of you and nobody would notice.
This is the best breakdown of what dystopia is that I've ever seen. I'm definitely using all this to rethink the book of protopian short sci-fi stories that I'm writing right now. The power imbalance of social roles as the starting point where things go wrong, and the extent of dehumanization as being the key metric of dystopianism, those are some pretty useful concepts.
PS: Protopianism is positing that the actually realistic and desirable way of making the future better is focusing on making small immediate helpful steps forward in constructive directions, rather than focusing on any sort of ideal perfect end state of society. It's especially not compatible with pitting any class against any other class or trying to do dramatic revolutions.
I think that’s a good idea it’s probably why Petersons “clean your room” became such a hard hitting meme we have people out here trying to upend major inequalities who individually aren’t even practicing being nice to their mother
Dude, commenting again because I can't get over how much I'm enjoying this. You deserve more subscribers.
I love so much your videos. The themes, examples, fluent edit and sense of humour. I'm so glad I found your channel
2:36 Code Geass has to be one of my favorite works of fiction, so it was cool to have ol’ Charles and Lelouch in the compilation!
Cringe...
@@velstadtvonausterlitz2338 😐
@@velstadtvonausterlitz2338 Just let people enjoy the works of art they are passionate about. Calling the wholesome appreciation of an art 'cringe' is not cool, it's rude and disrespectful. 😡
That's Reuenthal and Schönkopf. Alas Code Geass is awesome.
@@raygiovano1984 Are you talking about the Legend of Galactic Heroes clip right before it? I might have mistimed my clipping.
Maybe the best way to prevent dystopia is to remember the Stanford prison experiment. You are not your role or class, you're an individual, roles and class are responsibilities not identities. Not a perfect solution, but its the best I can think of...
I like your thinking. Using words differently, I'd say it something like:
Humanity>Class, and only pathetic fools thinking otherwise.
that experiment has never replicated and the data was manipulated so the experiment has never been proven true....
It helps, but that leads to the realisation that we are shaped by our environment much more strongly than we would like to admit, which leads to doubting the existence of free will, which leads to consequentialism. Then again, everything leads to consequentialism. You think intent is the only important factor? Then you must want more good intentions in the world. So the best action would be to create a situation that maximizes good intentions. But if you do act like thatthat, you're acting based on consequences, which means you're an accidental consequentialist.
The Stanford prison experiment was faked it has never been replicated and the data was manipulated in a way to prove what the guy wanted to prove and not what would have happened.
Yep, lets remember the most cringe and antiscientific experiment, in which so called scientist on a daily basis provoked participants, and won't let them go, unless they will actor their way out of it.
Experiment, which got debunked by every participants. Experiment in which participant faked meltdown, only to be able to go on some exam.
No, let the Stanford prison experiment, aside with summer camp experiment, be thrown away in a historical waste bin
The clans in battletech are your perfect warrior distopia
As are the rest of the Houses, tbh. They're the medieval kingdoms to the Clans mongol or viking raider.
@@levongevorgyan6789 I agree but would say it's a matter of degrees. It depends on which faction and when. The crusader clans during the clan invasion are pretty much the quintessential example though.
A warrior caste system where you can legitimately murder your way to the top as long as you call it a batchall
Funnily enough, when the people in charge only know how to fight they don't see the inherent issues in an 800 light year supply chain
After all, you don't need knowledge of grand-scale logistics to AC20 a cockpit window...
This is a great analysis. It's nice that you also put out your biases, and still made a very level-headed discussion of it all, even on topics that run counter to your beliefs. Rare to find.
Also Cyberpunk is the best. We're basically already living it. At least I can get cool tech too.
I am transgender. I am also intersex. I am not transgender because of bureaucracy. I am transgender *in spite of it*
I am sorry if they are weaponizing my genuine needs in ways that affect you. I don’t control what they do. I still have those needs.
Most of my worst problems around it are a result of the fact that when I was born some doctor or nurse glanced at my genitals and then decided how I should live my life for me, because 99% of the time that works for people. I am one of the exceptions.
I was assigned male at birth. I do not see myself as male.
About halfway through puberty my body stopped doing puberty. My voice never dropped. I never developed an Adam’s apple. I developed b cup breasts. My genitals did not fully develop.
I have since taken actions to consensually change my body to match what you might call my “inner self.” You say you are or were a trad Catholic? Then I hope you understand the idea of a person having something deep inside of them they cannot fully explain which is so powerful they have no real choice but to follow it.
I get it if you feel like you are being brainwashed or forced to accept a state ideology. Let’s agree: these people are shit. What they do to both of us is shitty.
I am not asking them to hurt you. I am asking you to respect my humanity. I am not an abstract academic concept. I am not a birth certificate or a couple of chromosomes. I am not a simple label like “male” or “female” because my body and sense of self do not care about them.
Please don’t give them more power over me by making my documentation mean more than my lived experience, or by reducing me to what other people say about me when I’m not there.
Finally an expression of pure raw humanity.
Yeah, I was gonna say that this video being anti-trans made it pretty easy to dismiss. The idea that bureaucrats want to use trans people to control what everyone else thinks is some Jordan Peterson level nonsense. It's just the latest in conservative backlashes to human rights. We did this with gay people and we did this with the civil rights era. Not to mention the idea that treating people the same is somehow a means of controlling people. That definitely collapsed into nonsense pretty quickly.
And there was no real response to the paradox of tolerance. Just "it's mush"? Ok, what do you disagree with exactly? If you tolerate an intolerant view, like gay people shouldn't be allowed to exist in society, you are necessarily being intolerant of gay people. Thus you're being intolerant even though you were trying to be tolerant. It's like how democracy can not survive an anti-democratic party being elected. It's the paradox of democracy.
@@jackskellingtonsorayeah it’s like people are treating a mental/physical condition as “they are brainwashing the masses” and it’s ridiculous.
An example of a warrior dystopia is the Clans of Battletech
I would say Battletech as a whole. The Inner Sphere is a feudalistic society given how hard is to destroy a mech making warrior class thrive and possible. Currently the decline of warrior class is because how easy to kill a nobleman or possible soldier that could be a future noble with modern guns.
I'd argue all of Battletech is a warrior dystopia. The Houses of the Inner Sphere get their power from their warrior mechs. Maybe Comstar has more of a religious bent, especially with the word of blake fanatics, but the rest of the factions are all Noble Houses, like in Dune. The Clans represent a more primitive warrior culture attacking a more established one, like the Mongols or Vikings attacking the established Kingdoms of Europe and hte Middle East.
Solid example.
@@levongevorgyan6789 Well the video did argue that feudal dystopia is the least dystopic society. It's still battletech does has some element of dystopia given that the Capellan Confederation exist and it's is a mix of bureaucratic dystopia in the sea of feudal dystopia.
Average civilian dies in Battletech due to the ambition of elites of the Inner Sphere. Comstar is the bureaucratic and scholar elements of SLDF that still exist after the civil war but it slowly turn into another theocratic-bureaucratic dystopic faction in the setting.
@@levongevorgyan6789it's a fundamental misunderstanding that the houses derive their power from the battlemechs.
The houses are ancient families that hold overwhelming economic , political and military power. Battlemechs are de facto an inefficient weapon on a strategic scale but very efficient in small scale tactical warfare. They minimize collateral damage and thus minimize the negative impact of warfare on trade and infrastructure.
If anything mech combat is more civilized than the warfare of today where cluster munitions are used to carpet bomb civilian population centers because some extremists fired a sugar rocket from a random backyard.
Honey, Wake up! Pilgrims Pass uploaded a new video!
I'd really love to hear your take on Transformers One. Not only is it a good brothers-to-enemies movie, I think there are some interesting insights on divine right and tyranny that could be taken from it. Thanks!
commenting for boost
For it does have social issue it hatred between both class ,caste or two group where Cybertron live in good lives in cities and whereas decepticons living in bad lives but still live together there still discrimination exist between them where decepticons have face they rebel want dignity but megatrons hatred let Cybertron deception war where thousands died even planet destroy megatrons become tranny it show how from First it was peaceful they just right one leader spread hatred use that for gain to live tranny just like how real world leader use they protect group so he get political rule
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This was the best breakdown I’ve ever seen and honestly if there’s a book correlated with this type of breakdown I’d love a recommendation. Blew it out of the water man, recommended this video to some friends. Thank you for the video
Your videos are so well put together and insightful!!
Thank you
The one definition of Dystopia I've always subscribed to was "failed Utopia"
I think the biggest cause of failure is seeking to solve all of the problems. We don't live for the solutions, we live for the problem-solving process. If you want to craft a utopia, it needs to give people things to do, and those things need to feel like freedom and productivity.
@@TheReaverOfDarkness Sounds like you would enjoy reading Walden Two by B.F. Skinner.
Scifi neo-feudalism would be the most livable imo
Even though I love the cyberpunk aesthetic especially when in the 80s like blade runner or ghost in the shell
It's your birthday, some gives you a calfskin wallet.
@@Adelina-293RAHHH WHAT THE FUCK IS A COMFORT 🦅🦅 I will charge into battle 5% more ferociously for he, the generous who leads by the sword
@@crocs4304 Dawg, you're gonna be farming 'taters on some dudes estate while living as a serf.
@@Otto_Von_Beansmarck As my ancestors gloriously and honorable ate raw potatoes in a field, so shall I!
@@sanctus864 potatoes? pfff how about cheap bread
18:30 "Imagine _Percy Jackson_ and _The Hunger Games_ had a kid who became an edgy Political Science student at _Dune_ University and played _waaaay_ too much _Warhammer 40,000_ with his buddies."
... Okay. You have my attention.
He's talking about the Red Rising series and it's very good! It does start out a bit 'young adult' but it finds its footing. I'm currently on the fifth book and am really enjoying it!
Another banger, man you really must be one of the most fun people to talk to, great job dude.
We're moving towards Huxely's world
And while everyone drowns in hedonism,the politicians turning the world into 1984. If nobody stops this we're all fcked.
Thought the day couldn't get any better..then this 😁
Weird that you haven’t mentioned Brave New World yet but I’m still watching the video
edit: The first mention is at 17:30
Yeah we already have seen what is coming and methods future dictators will and have used in history.
Post COVID - V for Vendetta hits very different.
No, it do not
V for Vendetta already completely misrepresents the facts. The most-coddled group of all time IRL gets portrayed as victims in that movie. The bullies posing as victims, as always.
@@NostalgicGamerRickOShaybro what are you on about? It’s a story about anarchy vs totalitarianism which is the coddled group? And tho sure the anarchist V is portrayed as the protagonist it dosnt even fully agree anarchy would be better. Unless you mean the film in which case it’s a lot less complicated and is more of a modern liberal take on overthrowing a fascist and racist government in which case again don’t get the criticism as yes putting people in concentration camps is in deed bad
@@NostalgicGamerRickOShay just like the real person it's based on!
@@NostalgicGamerRickOShay rich white men are indeed the most-coddled group of all time
The book you wrote sounds more interesting than Uglies and Hungergames
I can't wait to find out the title.
Dude my wife read your book or at least she described one exactly like yours to me
What was it called?
@@michaelhickman7369
Spill the tea brother 😉
What book ser?
What's book called, can't find it anywhere
It’s called dragon age Veilguard 😢😢😢
I've struggled to figure out the dystopia setting of my own story for awhile now, having different conflicting ideas that I'd like to incorporate. This video was great and gave me a much better idea of where to go with it!
"the pre-moderns were wiser" ... oh sheesh. FO. Things really went off the rails around 1:08:00.
Wanted to thank the author for giving me a new perspective on social structure, dynamics with his videos. Especially, on the ways of humanity's progress. You are partially responsible for my appreciation of Warhammer setting, your videos on that topic helped me to look at it from another angle, and to actually like that ridiculous universe.
As someone who lives in a country where the warrior class is in charge, it is true that people generally think that soldiers are cool.
Luckily, the beaurocrats are also pretty high up. So everything is nice and efficient so far.
What country do you live in?
@crusader2112 I live in Rwanda
@ Oh okay thank you.
@crusader2112 You're welcome. By the way, when I said it is nice, I mean't in a peaceful, secure, tranquil type of way.
People from places like the USA, where there is less government oversight (more crime but more excitement), might not enjoy it as much.
@ Okay, interesting. Thank you. 👍
Riseth, the Pilgrim comes to us once more
"Mad Max is not a dystopia".
Yes it is, are you kidding me? The world has burned down. It's post apocalyptic wasteland.
He was quite clear about why it wasn't a dystopia in the video. There's no active direct pressures of mass dehumanization occuring in the Mad Max setting. Go back to the first film and they go on a family picnic and Max has a relatively normal day job. The world is messed up, but it's not a dystopia.
@@GuestDude_HandlesAreDumb No he's somewhat right as [[art of the definition is 'post-apocalyptic'
In Egypt the Priest were also the Scientist. They created Gemstones and Metal alloys no one else had. Its where we get Chemistry from as its the Land of Khem. Maybe that is the Key to a powerful society. The ruling class needs to be a conglomeration of all classes. It not only allows lowers to rise through the ranks by mastery of the skills of other classes but makes the ruling class viewed as powerful by all those in every class as they are masters of all and worthy of respect.
The builders of the pyramids were well paid professionals too.
Love your well thought ramblings! Fun as well!
Thank you very much!
You have convinced me to pull out the chainmail and short swords.
You best start loving cyberpunk dystopias, you're in one
Where is Sandevistan, then?
We'll get 1984 long before we get Cyberpunk. The managerial class has all the cards, and is currently able to pick and choose the winners in the merchant class. Meanwhile, the merchants that you believe will become the supercorps of tomorrow are busy buying off bureaucrats to maintain their status quo.
Nah. We're leaning towards a theocracy. The evangelicals in the US will have all the power as of January 2025 and they'll quickly ban anything science-y that goes against their wretched dogma.
Eh, the threat of coup from Warriors becomes ever-present. Cyberpunk dystopia is enabled by the political gridlock of the age of liberalism, I don't know how long that'll last. Some day people will realize the primal truth of blood, steel & fire as the supreme dictators; not suits in boardrooms.
If you liked Priest, have you read "A Bloody Habit" by Eleanor Bourg Nicholson? It's also about vampire hunting priests, but with sound theology. Seriously.
Thanks for the recommendation
Just read the actual priest comics.
Thank you for explaining. I wish my Philosophy classes were like this
Listened to this while i did the washing up and then made tuna pasta, listened to the whole video. Very insightful and gave me a lot to think about, it also changed my perspective on a few things. I love how well thought out this was great video, liked and subbed
Pilgrim, I need the title of your book. It sounds like a completely unhinged variant of a mad quest to kill a god (the satanic cult in this one), which would be better than most dystopian novels.
ATTACK AND DETHRONE GOD
Pilgrim: "There is no more warrior ruling classes"!
Afghanistan: "I'm joke to you"? 😢
This channel slaps
This is such a good video! After so much blah blah about this or that, I was provoked to rethink ideas I thought I had found answers for. Thank you for making me question again.
I am surprised that His Dark Materials isn't mentioned in this video, since it fits well with the Theocratic Dystopia since the antagonistic Magisterium/the Church was Theocratic in its enforcement of its values, and also, they deem anyone heretics to go against them. It's interesting how they implement the fantastical elements like Dust and Daemons. Since they saw Dust as the source of free thought which what caused the First Sin by Adam and Eve. We know that it is bullish but that just shows how tight the Magisterium wanted to control everything in twisted Theocratic means.
Note I am Christian myself, and I find the Magisterium as a warning to any religion from going extreme especially in how that can lead to twisted interpretations if they're not checked.
Oh and also, I wish you could also analyse this very interesting case with Imperial Japan since that nation had elements found in both Warrior and Theocratic Dystopias with the former Samurai class taking over major positions in Japan's military which influenced in Japan's militarism and expansion. And deifying and worshiping the Emperor of Japan as a living God, and obviously any one who opppose would be viewed a heretic. Japan is a very weird and interesting take in this.
Great video btw.
Honey, wake up. Pilgrims Pass uploaded.
Epic video. The Warrior Aristocracy or Cyberpunk might be the best to live in, but a cyberpunk merchant-led world commodifies everything and modern warfare doesn’t mix well with the warrior aristocracy. (Rip Kaiser Karl) I agree, the classes must and need to work together for a society to truly prosper. Great video 👍 Peace ✌🏻
Saw thumbnail with Hunger Games as socialism...feel that's late stage capitalism too lol
I know it was only mentioned a few times but I crackled with excitement every time he mentioned Red Rising. God I love that series, it is by far my favorite sci fi series ever. Hail Reaper!
Another amazing piece of work! You may have my personal record for bookmarked favorites!
Thank you for this awesome video thesis! What an inspiring video!
To add one more thing, the first ever considered utopia should be the Republic by Plato, which suggests a society ruled by philosophers (you may say the joint of bureaucracy and Theocracy).
Hunger Games is definitely NOT socialism 💀
Yeah, like it's a pretty naked critique of capitalism
1984 is also a critique of Stalinism, not socialism, considering George Orwell was a Democratic Socialist and never renounced Socialism
Way more facist with the obsession with hierarchy
@@evildavid8957 You mean Communist. They only care about their position.
Socialism controls society through central government, all revolutionaries are totalitarian in their demands.
@@evildavid8957 it is not, really. The point of 1984 is pure totalitarianism
A new Pilgrims Pass video-essay?
Boy, Christmas DID come early this year!
Jokes aside, I love your content.
Thank you for all the work you do! ❤
Edit: I wrote the comment about as soon as I clicked on the video.
But after watching it- (And noting down pages of it) Oh Dear.
This one is Great.
I wish more people followed you.
The most dystopian is thinking "free market" is real
Dont forget thinking socialism is a good thing 😂
@coreymeredith4001 yeah is is when the system is in control of the people Democratically, Also known as a dictatorship of the prolateriat.
@@coreymeredith4001 You might wanna google that term, you look kinda dumb.
Yea, just steal everything from socialism, but dilute it and make it soulless and as profitable as possible and call it "crapitalism."
"Free market" 101
Steal from socialism and dilute it until it's as søulless and as profitable as possible, "free market" 101
that was comprehensive as ****. Great video!
Long time no video, but it was worth wainting. Great job. See You in the next few months
The one of Orwell isn't about socialism, is about f*scism, he also fought on the Spanish Civil war at the side of the Socialists and he wrote what he imagined it could be a society who never learned from the horrible things of f*scism.
Please don't spread disinformation, the only thing Orwell was against was Stalin, as most of communists were against him too (Ex. Yugoslavia).
His vision was mostly against authoritarism, at any kind, but he wasn't against socialism.
the best Rizzilian has uploaded again
I say I would live in a Cyberpunk because it's the familiar to the me
That is because we already live in it... Turns out is a Lot more lamer that we imagine
@juanfranciscovillarroelthu6876 Yeah I was thinking of the game not real life because we don't have the cool stuff
@@juanfranciscovillarroelthu6876 Give Elon another 10-20 years. At the very least, we're getting Kiroshi's and neural ports.
Fascinating analysis bro. Well done.
This was so bloody interesting I had to watch it twice! At work! Thanks for the added booklist; want to partake and consider. And I agree that "Priest" is a magnificent film; needs more love and (why not?) perhaps a series of films. Subscribed.
Battletech actually has all types of these Dystopias in it. Let me show you.
Bureaucratic dystopia:
Capellan Confederation and Draconis Combine
Capitalist Dystopia:
Free Worlds League and Magistracy of Canopus
Theocratic Dystopia:
Comstar and Word of Blake, the Society
Warrior dystopia:
The Clans
It is honestly what makes the setting so interesting, you have different kinds of dystopias intersecting.
As with most of you videos I agree with most of what you say, but you solution is again too straight forward. "Ethics" being necessary for a functioning society is what you would call the "priest class" exercising their vision of society. Ethics are not fundamental, what is ethical one day might be unethical the next. But yes, balance is the key to a healthy society and human health in general
You fucked up hard with the socialism thing at 11:20. Utopian Socialism (a.k.a premarxist socialism) is a completely different movement than marxist, materialist socialism. Marx was an open critic of utopian ideals, even if you think his work could be adopted as utopic by the eastern regimes.
Genuinely a good video, very interesting to think of dystopias as certain traditional classes coming to power.
If I had to live in any of these 4 types it would be a cyberpunk dystopia, its just fucking cool
I’d go sci-fi medievalismand feudalism and the theocratic traditionalism, specifically 40k’s sci-fi feudalistic theocracy
Interesting how different "main" gamelines of World of Darkness tabletop RPGs have these different types of dystopia as "the crushing system":
Vampire: the Masquarade - the warrior class dystopia of hyper powerful acient vampire mafia bosses, where power is often corresponding heavily with actual combat prowess, where the weak are simply pawns and the only pernament way to advancing is to take this personal power directly for yourself by defeating (either directly or any being clever) someone more powerful and literally devouring their soul.
Mage the Ascension - the beurocratic type. Technocracy is the shadow cabal that promises progress in technology, but seeks the complete control, crushing individuality and wants to turn everyone into cog in the machine by eventually spiritually lobotomizing entire humanity (they are also commonly treated on Reddit as "actual good guys", because their opponents are "qanon antivaxxers" and "science is good", ignoring the fact that there are science-oriented mage traditions opposing the Technocracy)
Werewolf the Apocalypse - combo of merchant and theocratic, there is Pentex the megacorp secretly filled with supernatural weirdoes, they making a lot of money and are spiritually alligned with the forces that are opposing the Earth itself and as such, the Pentex seeks to destroy the environment both for profit (which gives influence) and for the sake of it. Its honestly kinda cartoonish, but again, the game itself has a reputation of "that game where you play as a furry Ted Kaczynski". (this game also tends to bring critcism on Reddit, despite anti-capitalism and environmentalism because "science technology good" and werewolves themselves are rather... VERY much anti-modernity)
I am generally noticing the trend when the "gameline evil establishment" comes of as more "modern" than player characters, Redditors often see the fundamental problem (notice how Vampire the Masquarade, the gameline that has the least controvercy over its basic premise have "the evil establishment" being essentially pre-modern might-makes-right people who were often literally born in pre-modern times, while the player-friendly opposition to them is way more "modern"), despite in the setting itself none of player character groups are really "the good guys", just mostly desiring its own interests.
In _Werewolf,_ I'd argue the whole thing is theocratic. Pentex is, indeed, a corporation, but it's under the control of a theocratic elite, and the werewolf tribes as a whole are also theocratic, though not all to the same extent. Mind, it makes a difference when your patron deity actually does stuff.
I'd argue about _Mage,_ since the default PC mage groups are closer to religious orders, but mages are still humans, and that means however they believe reality 'actually' works, they're forced to spend most of their lives in the consensus reality created and maintained by the Technocracy.
I’m Deeply Theocratic. GODs Men vs A.I Nephilim🗡️👑✝️
You need more sub's man. Every video I've watched has been interesting.
That was very insightful, looking at human history with the lenses of those four powers/classes. Once again a great video.
(15:26) This wasn't actually true for large portions of Chinese history, and throughout Chinese history social ranks have shifted greatly. Initially, during the Western Zhou, under the social system known as the 國野制, soldiers were equal to the scholar-bureaucrats, and merchants and artisans were placed above peasants, but with the abolition of the 國野制, the peasants began to rise in social status. When the Legalist Qin Dynasty came to power, they placed merchants and artisans below peasants, as they wanted the population to consist of an impoverished peasantry stuck to their land to reduce their power relative to the government, and the existence of merchants threatened this. The rise of the Eastern Han relied on the merchant class' rebellion again Wang Mang, and their social status started to rise again, but when the Eastern Han began to collapse, the social status of both merchants and soldiers began to do so as well, however the equal-field system of the Northern Wei created a hereditary military caste and restored the high social status of the soldiers. This social system remained in place until the late Tang Dynasty, when the powerful imperial aristocracy disappeared and the military seized power and elevated themselves above the scholar-bureaucrats. Shortly afterward, after the Song Dynasty reunited China, the military lost power again, and in reaction to their abuse of power over the past century, the soldiers were dropped to the bottom of the social ladder, while the rise of commerce meant that merchants and artisans started to rise up the social ladder once more, until by the late Ming Dynasty they were more or less equal to peasants.