Post-Millennialism vs Amillennialism Debate (Wilson v Foskey)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- It's finally here! Pastor Doug Wilson agreed to sit down with Keith for a 30 minute discussion about their differences regarding the millennium. In the end, with it be #FancyAmil or #GrumpyPostMil? The audience gets to decide!
NOTE: This is not a formal debate and it's intended to be just as funny as it is informative.
Special thanks to Eschatology Matters for hosting this event and Pastor Tim Bushong for moderating.
I've never clicked on something so fast
FIRST
Hahaha me too
Me too. I think I saw the words "no views" 😂
It's good to see you man!
I think I am a few months late.
The radical 2-kingdoms people have done great harm to the Amillennial position honestly. The Mainline Churches (in the style of N.T. Wright) are almost exclusively Amillennial, but have the Kingdom of God and the transformation of the world as one of their primary beliefs. We just don't think the world will be rid of powerful enemies before Christ returns.
Hey there! Fancy seeing you here!
Hey! Quit watching videos and make more kingdom craft videos! 😂
Right. I'm an Amill who believes in the Kingdom's power and affect to transform the world but the seeming totality metric of the post-mills before Christ's return is the trouble.
Funny how I believe that too as a Premill Christian. Seems like the real divide is whether the Gospel reaching large numbers of people ought to transform the culture or not. The question of whether this will usher in the end times or simply be a present representation of God's Kingdom seems secondary to this basic premise that people from all sides can theoretically affirm.
The most tangible statement that I got from this debate, “I’m the harbor freight version of Douglas Wilson.”
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
Hyped better than influencer boxing
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
This was fun! Thanks for doing it. Keith I really appreciate the way you represented the Amil position. Great stuff.
Wow!! That was edifying, informative and uplifting. I thank God for all three of you men who have devoted their lives to shepherding the flock. May God bless you and your ministries 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
It was great seeing all three of you together! As an Amil Reformed Presbyterian Teaching Elder, I decided that I would root for both sides on this matter. :D
Really enjoyable discussion, although I was a little disappointed that it wasn’t a full fledged two hour long moderated debate.
I'm a Dispy Premiller (minus the rapture), but have become convinced of the Postmil mission statement. Inasmuch, I live my life having the same frame of mind as Pascal's Wager: "I would rather live like a Postmil and everything turn out Premil than to live like a Premil and everything turn out Postmil."
How about living like Jonathan Edwards. "I'm not opposed to changing my theology in mid-air."
I can't verify that quote but I'm quite sure I heard Doug Wilson quote that once.
Edit: ok apparently it was Rushdoony, and it was quoted in this video. My bad.
@michaelstarling6361
Not here to debate, but to invite. If you reject the imminent rapture, you are already at odds with necessities of the dispensational system. I would have you account for how you would still claim dispensationalism, and yet square it with the nature of Christ's return. If the fruit of postmil is so nutritious, it's only because the roots justify it. Come on over; preach what you practice 😀
@cooljams_jams I believe in what I would call a split tribulation rapture. I believe Christians will be here for the entirety of the persecution of the beast, but I believe the plagues won't start until Jesus has destroyed the beast and brought all the saints into Israel. Most dispensational Premillers teach the persecution and the plagues coincide with one another and we will be raptured before any of it starts. Given the promises in Deut. 28 62-68, 30 1-10, and the fact that he gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, and a revival of the Jews is to take place before the end, I have a hard time seeing how these could be true if every nation becomes a Christian nation before the end. Why would Jews live in constant fear of the nations until the time of their revival and being brought back into the land, and why would all the nations then suffer destruction for treating the Jews unfairly, if all the nations are fully surrendered to the law of God and displaying the love of Jesus? Also, the argument that Nero was the one and only beast/man of lawlessness is so shotty that even Doug Wilson has become convinced there is a beast yet to come, but that will happen during Gog and Magog's revolt (which scripture seems to describe the uprising as a flash in the pan)
This is so good! I love that you and Wilson did this.
Thanks for doing this. Really enjoyed it. As an optimistic a-mil guy myself, I tend to see it as Christ winning the world but the victory looking a lot like the Cross and less like success in the world’s eyes. What looked like a defeat to the world (ie a man beaten and crucified) was in fact the coronation of our King punctuated by a display of power via resurrection. Likewise, the success of the church may look to human eyes like terrible persecution and suffering with Christ… punctuated by some sudden display of power at our resurrection.
I subbed to this channel so I could be notified of the debate 😂 also, this guy is hilarious. Win win
Truly smart people are able to communicate serious subjects with humor. I love both these men. I am edified by both.
Love both of you. Great conversation (more than a debate), very interesting.
I'm a Amil guy, still very much love and respect Mr. Wilson.
wow, I got a harbor freight commercial for playing this vid thanks to Keith's reference
My cigars are like Joel osteens salvation…. 😂😂😂😂
I spat out my water through my nose and mouth laughing from the first 85seconds! Keep it ip!
Loved it! I look forward to meeting you at the conference in February!
As the debate raged, I was asking myself " what if I'm optimistic long term but pessimistic short term ? " , and the 'grumpy postmil' comment kinda wrapped it up for me. Thanks, guys.
That was great to listen to, thank you guys!
Can't wait for this!
Been waiting for this!
Some of my favoritest pastors in the land are in this video 🤩
Keith is Fancy for sure. Thanks guys.
Doug Wilson hit the nail on the head with if they agree to much can't have a debate. The minor things they differ on don't effect salvation. Like the differences between Peter and Paul they didn't agree on everything.
I'm 3 hours late watching this because I was having discussion with my brother about Reformed Jewish beliefs vs Orthodox Jewish Beliefs. I'm a Orthodox Messianic Jew Priest by the way.
The only thing that effects salvation is the grace of God.
If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect I would go around lifting shirts. But since He didn’t I must preach “whosoever will” and when “whatsoever” believes I know that he is one of the elect. Spurgeon
I fall into the amillennial camp. My question for both debaters is, how do we deal with the fact that Christ builds His church, and how does the doctrine of election fit in? Does it not make sense that the return of Christ will be tied to the last of the elect being elected. Does my question make sense? Let me say that any good amillenial is very evangelistic. Blessings
The opening music kind of made it for me.
An enjoyable debate to watch. Keith, I couldn't tell your were Calvinist at all tonight.
Maybe when I come visit we can talk eschatology some. I'm a partial preterist.
This was good. I was expecting some metal music after that second intro too 💀
0:50 "their stood"? Call the Royal Grammar Police!
This is awesome
Not sure where i land eschatologically, i know i want to preach the gospel to everyone God leads me, everything else seems secondary/tertiary, respectfully. God bless you all brothers!
Some of us freewill baptist are amil. You should remember us 🙏
Thank you pastors-enjoyed the brevity and humor, wish that a Pre-Mill would have enjoined the fray... I’m still one even after the good laugh about not knowing what to do once the rest of the world converts to our Lord Jesus Christ (even if I sometimes call him Yeshua Ha’Messiach).
Ps. I love behind that iron-wannabe-curtain near Idaho... and on the Western side to boot.
Great video!
Ah, The Agincourt of our day: The Diet of Nerds.
😂😂
Got my 🍿!
Would’ve enjoyed a 2-4 hour debate. This is too short.
Who is the Duke of dispensationalism and who is the grand poobah of premillennialism?
John MacArthur and Jim Hamilton respectively 😊
James Hall Brookes
@@Brandon-bh6zqMacArthur calls himself a leaky Dispensationalist so I doubt he's the best choice as a hero for the Dispy position
As a postmillennial realist, I believe that one aspect includes the fact Biblical truth becomes so culturally ingrained that we end up with better-quality nonbelievers/criminals. For a free Whopper with cheese, I will explain more later...
Disp pre-mill enjoying the optimists splashing about in pools and showers of Grace. May it continue into the millenium.
We are in the Millennium. 😂
Look at all the theology books behind Doug!!!
"Their" stood in his way? Their looks like they might have trouble getting out of their way.
The best golden age is the amillienial golden age. Why? Because ours is perfect, heavenized, and will never end.
"We absolve you of everything."
Lol
I’d like to get a hold of that introductory song! Who is that?
I think it's Hail to Jesus (Psalm 110) by Tim Bushong
Great theology but would never make a Hollyweird movie.
Great respect to both men for a while. To Foskey, what is the postmillennialism you are rejecting? Because it does not seem to characterize Wilson's (and my) postmil.
*there stood
#theirstood
My ruler is called a Grand Poobah. Sounds right for me and for historic premil. 😂
There was a huge red flag ignored. Namely, that postmil requires the Christianization of the world to be true. It is obligatory and foundational. Whereas, an amil, would not require it, but if it happened it would not go against our eschatology. Postmil requires a multi-generation Christianization of the world that does not end, which has never happened. Also, the literal reading of Isaiah 65 is extremely problematic, given that Peter tells us how to interpret it in 2 Peter 3.
30 minutes? There should be a second…third…
Great discussion, but didnt help me understand where the fundemental differences arise and how each view deals with different texts.
I hope this was the prequel to the debate!
Have you watched the eschatology roundtable discussion from desiring God? It will do a far better job of getter deeper into the discussion and nuance the differences between the 3 millennial views.
Look up "an evening of eschatology" Doug Wilson is in that one too. It's like 2 hours long.
I love watching a debate where both opponents are wrong. So much fun 😂
The lone pre-mill agrees with you.
Jesus says no man knows (yadas) the day or the hour, probably meaning NOT that he didn't know, but rather was not permitted to yada it to his disciples. Paul seemed unbound, as did John.
We'll see you in the end
What’s the hymn at the beginning and who’s singing it?
Hail To Jesus (Psalm 110) by Tim Bushong
@@Brandon-bh6zqthanks brother God bless
My air conditioner on my car isn’t working and I am going to have to take it to the shop
I feel like Joel Richardson should have a seat at this table.
What is the song at the end?
So is positive amillenialism just postmillenialism or vice versa?
Isn't postmillennialism also a chillegoristic view?
How is this a debate? The interpretation of Psalms 110 would have been a good debate for this topic. Missed chance!!
I appreciate that this is a cordial and friendly conversation, but it is sad to see two pastors make their respective cases with little to no reference to scripture…
Look at sermons / studies from both for a more detailed explanation of their respective positions
Thanks, I am very familiar with the amil and postmil positions. I just don’t think this was a substantive conversation.
27:41 it would not change my theology, nor should it change anyone's if that were to happen. Our eschatology, and every other discipline of theology, should come from God's word, not our experiences. It would take a lot more than a mass conversion of Christianity to change my eschatology. That already happened with Constantine, and not long after, you had an apostate church.
Doug at 28:00 😂
H Y P E
#fancyAmil
Why is Doug Wilson debating himself
If you really love Jesus, your eschatological position is chillegoristic.
This better be in the next video! ExcEpt the Big Eva guy wouldn’t say that hahahaha
So #grumpypostmill ? Is that #superiortheology then?
I love your take on abortion and contacting your representatives as a pastor. While some of your other doctrine is faulty....😂 You are dead on and I have a lot of respect for you for that.
I heard while you guys were debating, Craig Keener did an interview with Tucker Carlson about historic premillennialism.
Fancy A-Mill all the way 🎉
Heil Keith
The harbor freight Doug Wilson lol
I'm at the beginning but I would like to see Jimmy Evans or Max Lucado on the premil side.
Wait who are the duke and grand pubah of the pre mil camps?? Lol i want to know the whole court!
According to someone else in the comments it's John Macarthur and Jim Hamilton.
@@becauseimbatman5702ty
I'd vote for Jimmy Evans. Only because my father is currently with the Lord....🙃
Grumpy postmill.. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Seems that is all Protestantism is good for. Having meaningless disputes and pride.
Historic premillennialism for the win.
Adventist?
Yep. Even staunch Post-mill teachers like Joel Webbon admit that it's the earliest position of the church. I'm going to stick with that view since it was most likely the tradition of the apostles.
@@dustinfordham4007 *Webbon
@@autumn_armyworm Thank you. Fixed. ^_^
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, nearly a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. In my opinion, this is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
Most Post-Mils are also Preterist so they would believe that most of the applicable scriptures have already been fulfilled. Esp Matt 24 and nearly all of Revelation
@@toolegittoquit_001 Also known as partial preterist.
Wow, I've never really watched a debate where both participants are wrong ;)
Ha!
Lol! You win the internet today.. .🤣
Unless you are wrong (and you are incorrect)
I dont even understand what this is about. This didnt have anything to do with eschatology. What a terrible debate
Do you understand the meaning of the word ?? 🤔