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I personally recommend the earlier version of "Drawing Down the Moon" since, in the final edition, Margot bows and scrapes to Hutton, which is really disgusting. Especially after he slammed her and Vivian Crowley for their astute observations over the mendacious machinations over the late historian, Norman Cohn. Cohn is an absolute liar in my books. Prior to Carlo Ginzburg's books being translated into English he tried to poison the well against them by fabricating their contents. And in his book "Europe's Inner Demons" he claims that Margaret Murray committed passages from the witch trials/ confessions she was quoting, which she did not. The irony (and hypocrisy) is that he intentionally omitted a key passage from the Canon Episcopi that he was quoting and citing because he quoted both the Latin and his translation in which the same portion had been intentionally redacted. (You can't accuse someone falsely of having done something and then do that very thing yourself!) I'll actually be discussing this at length in the book I'm writing, "The Witch Trial of Margaret Murray."

New sub Thanks for assisting my studies in The Tree of life, Kabbalah and Tarot Deep deep stuff. Not for everyone😅❤

This is a true issue, but I disagree with the "transphobic" labeling. I feel that this video pushes misinformation. Most of these "bad people" are gay men or gay friendly. I'm gay, and one of these labeled "transphobic" Gardnerians was my high priest who had a trans woman marry him and his wife. There is little if any transphobia. What it IS, is Gardnerians who have to committed to pass on and practice the Craft as it was passed to them. They have not modernized it to modern social gender viewpoints. They would allow trans people in their circles so long as they conformed to the expectations of the tradition. All people, Trans, gay or hetero were formed from either the biological act or the genetic material of a male and female. And so fertility is a concept central to EVERYONE. This was fertility of the people, of the animals, of the crops, and (nowadays mostly) the mind. I have not seen anyone on any feed actually say or suggest that they specifically exclude trans people. Only people who do not perform the expectations of Craft tradition. And yes, there is a place for everyone in the Craft. But if you do not agree with a tradition...any are always welcome to practice in a different tradition. There are probably hundreds of different types of Wiccan traditions, just as there are many denominations of Christians and others. Not one path needs to fit everybody. Every time people disagree with an aspect of the tradition, they can form a new one. This should be the same for Gardnerians. That being said, I'd allow trans people in my coven so long as they conformed with the expectations. If not, as for any of other reason, I would politely send them up the road to a group that I thought would accommodate them. And not expect us to change our tradition to accommodate their preferences.

im reading your book right now. im liking it so far.

I want to honestly than you for these videos. I am a queer pagan living in a strict christian country and your videos have brought me clarity and confidence for my practice and belief system. Looking forward to more of your videos ❤️

Thank you again

This is an amazing talk, thank you so much! I was really excited to hear that there are theologIES, not THE theology. Also the thing that surprised me was that celebration of wheel of the year holidays is not essential/fundamental. Is there any literature about theologIES of Wicca that you can recommend! I'd be happy to learn more about diversity of Wiccan traditions.

Hahahaha "A Spell To Make Myself Less Arrogant." I would love to at least see the spell but yeah it's not happening for me either.

Oof the arms are arming

Finally we can hear you without putting volume to max. Deosn't (pun intended) cheapen it at all.

As a survivor - and that’s absolutely the word - of academic philosophy myself, I think you’d gain a lot from actually learning about Plato and Platonism, rather than just casually using “platonism” to reference whatever flavor of modern realism. Plato and his followers absolutely credited the ecstatic and the experiential. Even the example of number as something obviously unspiritual that it would disappoint people to hear you’re working with made me shake my head, given the intersections between (concrete, historical) Platonism and Pythagoreanism. When I was in college and grad school they basically taught us to read past the weird bits of Plato and mine him for propositions amenable to contemporary logic-chopping. Years later, I found that taking Plato seriously as a literary author was a radically different experience and a decisive turning point in my becoming pagan. Of course, this doesn’t impact “philosophy” as a contemporary social construct, which is the sense you’re using the term in this video, but so much the worse for that construct. It’s the result of a contingent historical process, and its inability to critically assess its position in those terms gives the lie to its claims to speak to any kind of deep objectivity. I’ll recommend two resources. The first is the Secret History of Western Esotericism Podcast (SHWEP), particularly the first thirty or so episodes (from the beginning through Plato). The host and his guests are all academics. The second is “Thinking Being” by Eric Perl. It may feel like it’s written beneath your level - well, strictly speaking it is, it’s an undergrad introduction. But it’s an introduction to a stream it sounds like you’ve largely missed out on, as you’re basically specializing in the history of disenchantment. While it’s certainly A philosophy, the idea that the world is essentially dead doesn’t deserve to squat the term “philosophy,” full stop. The problem with more meaningful and holistic approaches is that they’re considered tainted with Christianity. That’s understandable in terms of a lot of the harm Christianity has wrought, but also reactive and based on a weak understanding of the history. So the yearning for deeper meanings, which is a lot of what draws young people to philosophy in the first place, becomes a big taboo, a site of repression. Which I believe has a lot to do with the terrible interpersonal behavior academic philosophy is notorious for. So I’m not suggesting you get into this with your colleagues. Just for your own information. I don’t think you would probably even comment on the surprise people express when they find this out about “philosophy” if you didn’t understand that actually something’s not right here, that those people aren’t just being naive.

That minute 15 is pure Gold 🤌🏼 thinking 'we made up the Gods' feels equally lazy that "everything is the same, all the gods are the same"... Feels lazy and erase the history, folklore, language, culture, and background from each deity and what they represented and incarnate in their respective period of time, like years ago when I was explaining Oshun to someone else and a 3rd person just says "oh, so is Aphrodite but black, just another incarnation of her"... 😐 No words to answer that... 😐🤌🏼

Sound improved and that haircut is fine as wine 😎 here for the conversation!

Welcome 🙌🏼 to the world of the content creators 🙌🏼 next step... Jack dancing with Wiccan music on TikTok 😎🙌🏼

You make some very relevant points in this video, Jack. We couldn't view the past through modern eyes/opinions. Gardner was born in 1887 - the Victorian era. His views and writings reflect to era he was brought up in. This doesn't justify his views - it just is. Yes, he was flawed (who isn't?). I wonder what his views would be if he was living in today's world.

T.C. Lethbridge certainly went down the variantly spelled and secret “A. named G. as an extremely obscure British tribal thing” rabbit-hole in Witches (1962), lol. Loved it. The very first professionally published reference to a new Goddess religion called “Wicca” by an outsider that I’m aware of though was The Lost Gods of England by Brian Branston (1957). I’m currently reading A Goddess Arrives (1939) and there is definitely an interesting theological disagreement happening between Dayonis and Kinyras at the moment, lol.

As a Gardnerian initiate I appreciate your insights here. These are ideas that I have considered for years, with my perspectives varying over time, and with no small amount of struggle with the universal/localized concept. It was also great to hear from someone who also doesn't accept the "we believe the gods into being" idea.

Nice 💇🏽‍♂️

Sounds great this time!!! I don't have to have head phones cranked to the max. Thank you

Audio SIGNIFICANTLY improved! I can hear you now :D

This reminds me if the story of Jacob in the old testament about how he slept on a stone

I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this topic. You are one of my favorite commentators on Wiccan topics.

What you are saying about WICCA is wildly different from the WICCA I learned about in early 90s. Almost to the point of it being 2 separate things.

Gutted about Gardner. Very old fashioned views, by the sounds of it. Down with bigotry, hatred, ignorance, small mindedness, unfairness and similar. Bah 😤💩

Thanks for explaining.🙏❤️❤️❤️

I completely agree with you because I am a flawed person who is trying to do what is good. Thanks for highlighting the flawed individual.🙏❤️❤️❤️

Thanks for sharing your story. I am not familiar with modern magic but as a gay man I appreciate beautiful men as it is the personification of the divine. 🙏❤️❤️❤️

I intellectually disagree with most of your videos, but I still enjoy them. It’s the “I almost got a philosophy major and I almost joined the debate team, but I was afraid to because I was very young and it was a dude-fest” part of me I guess. There are definitely objectively bad dudes (Jeffrey Dahmer comes to mind) and you’re very cute, so please stay safe out there. Edward Carpenter is someone I think you might want to look into, if you’re not familiar with his work already. He was also a direct (and credited) influence on Gerald Gardner. I love him. I love that Gardner quote too though, lol.

Hello! Loved your VR to Thorn! Definitely gonna reflect on these thoughts and rewatch. I just now found your channel because of it and am excited to check out your other videos. ☺️

As an author myself I fully resonate with this. We write for where we are in that moment, but we are always growing and transforming in our practices, depth of understanding, and we need to give room for everyone to do that. It is not just books though, I see content creators struggle with this as well - they built their audience on where they were when they started, but have grown and changed since then and want to share that, but struggle with the fear of losing their audience.

Hey man. Your academic sources are, uh, not good. In The Meaning of Witchcraft, Gardner mentions homosexuality exactly once. Thats it. For someone so bigoted and intent on being anti-homosexual, that doesn't carry any weight to support your argument. He writes: "The Communists and Nazis, being utterly ruthless, forbade not only freedom of speech and action, but also cosmetics and pretty clothes. Other religions, being less powerful, attempt to prevent beautiful clothes. What monstrosities women have been persuaded to clothe themselves in, in the name of "modesty"! The religions actually “work" the fashion shows in Paris and elsewhere to force women to wear long and voluminous skirts to hide their legs, and all sorts of devices are put through to prevent the figure being displayed. Curves must be covered up or flattened out, and girls made to look as much like boys as possible. "Vive Homosexuality!" is the cry. As long as we can keep men's minds away from anything sweet and lovely!" Pretty sure he's simply expressing a preference for how he prefers his women look. This is hardly a MAGA style tirade and is a clear condemnation of communism and naziism. Unless you like communism and naziism, you probably should let these dogs lay, as his condemnation of those failed ideologies is much stronger than a missive about a fashion show. There even was a ritual about preventing Hitler from invading Britain. There's no ritual to root out homosexuality, it didn't seem important to him. "But what about Lois Bourne?" What about Lois Bourne? Dancing With the Witches is written in 1998. Gardner dies in 1964. Bourne chooses to write the book 34 years later after battling alcoholism. She died in 2017. Is she a reliable witness? Probably not. While I understand you're sensitive to the topic, and I appreciate you trying to help other people, this really comes off as lunchroom gossip.

I am super interested in this, but your audio is poor and I can't hear. My phone is on full blast. I'll try listening later on my laptop with headphones.

I'm a pagan, Gardner doesn't influence my craft. ❤

Jack, you might not fancy yourself a real, TH-cam content creator, but your subscribers here are bound to disagree :P Your thoughts and opinions are interesting way beyond the point of deserving good audio to carry them to folks' ears. Your message should be heard! My vote -- grab a Yeti mic (not a big investment) and be done with it.

I’ve noticed in recent years that homophobia seems to be coming out of the political left. It’s concerning

I’m not sure that the idea that homophobia was part of the zeitgeist at the time actually was a good excuse. Britain had just been through WW2, where gay culture was quite visible in the form of the drag artists who were part of entertainment for the troops, and there was a comedy show called “Round the Horne” which had two gay characters called Julian and Sandy who spoke Polari. I went to a talk by Peter Tatchell about the first Pride March in London in 1972. He said that a third of the people were indifferent, a third were actively hostile, and a third were cheering the LGBT+ people. Though it must be said that this was after the cultural revolution that was the 1960s. I grew up in the 1980s and most men seemed to be homophobic-but women, not so much. So I think the idea that homophobia was the norm at the time needs to be made a bit more complex. It was probably similar to what Peter Tatchell said: 1/3 hostile, 1/3 indifferent, 1/3 approving. That said, I totally agree with you that people are complex and they make bad choices and have bad opinions but that doesn’t make them 100% bad. And agreed that Wicca is not solely the product of any single person.

Jack wearing an amethyst ring while talking on this topic to transmutate this for good 🥹🥲💜 #IntuitivePowerInAction 💜🥲🥹

Gerald was not some paragon of virtue, not a prophet, not the messiah (HaVNB). He worked some shit out that clearly seems to work and passed it on and it continues to work. No more, no less. I think it's worth pointing out that as much as Gerald travelled the world, he was not a 'worldly' man - His interactions were exclusively from a upper middle class white man visiting these places and there's an intrinsic separation resulting from that. I (at least like to) believe that it would have only taken one or two actual interactions with someone gay to make Gardner go 'Oh, they're just people'. P.S. - The purple lighting switches rapidly between scary demon eyes to absolutely *fire* eyeshadow and I'm all for it either way

I’m really sorry, but the audio in this video is pretty much nonexistent. I even Bluetoothed to my speaker and I couldn’t hear you.

Really interesting! Such an enlightening contribution to, I hope, an ongoing conversation!

This was such an interesting video to watch, and one that I'm gonna be rewatching for sure! Witchcraft is indeed inclusive of such a wide range of ideas and practices, that the language of it and what people mean can really vary. I love the way you broke it down into those axes, and as someone who is more on the self development/honouring nature and higher source side of things, this video has helped me learn a bit more about other areas, so thank you for that 😊✨✨✨

Thanks for your VR to Thorn. I just finished watching her and the algorithm brought up your vid. I was introduced to a hybrid witchcraft that mixed folk magic and ceremonial magic in the 1960's by my dad. I never heard of Gardner or Wicca until the 1990's so the online banter amuses me. I have a couple of comments on Neo Paganism/Witchcraft. First, the concept of witchcraft asself help psychotherapy is a late 20th century construct that I find dubious at best. Second, I seldom do spell work because when I do a work, it works, and I find the cyber witches online who feel the need to constantly repeat protection spells or prosperity spells makes me think they don't really believe the previous spell they did will work. It must be terrible living in a state of fear. Blessings.

Interesting indeed… I enjoyed listening to your take on this subject, and description of the spectrum of individual practices.. ⭐️

I might be a tad late, but I love the new profile picture ❤. Sn, I didn't know you had a new book. I have to check it out. I have the tarot for real life and the Qabalah book. I try to support your work as best as I can.

Good Morning

I'm going to go here in Reno for the first time ever. Thank you for your thoughts, very well said. Blessed Be. Edited to add, I lived in Utah from age 6 to 44 ;)

As someone who was trained in a coven without a dedicated HP, I think it's really hard on an individual teacher to present the roles of both the HP and HPS in an emulatable way. I'm always grateful that I have my wife to share the workload and give different perspectives. I don't envy the task you have in front of you, Jack, but I truly wish you the best of luck!

So this is all coming from a non-initiate here so take with a grain of salt / *utterly* dismiss as appropriate :) 1. Really and truthfully - Of those bootstrapping HPs where things have gone really wrong - How many do you honestly think put in this much thought, angst and planning to it? I feel like that simple fact of you having these concerns eliminates at least 90% of the potential issues. 2. No idea how this gels with coven autonomy, separation periods etc. but once you have someone at the point where these are imminent concerns, would it be worth (at least digitally) introducing them to female initiate(s) / HPS(s) that you trust to almost act as a safety mechanism - People they can bounce ideas off and ask if Jack is being careful and mentoring vs controlling and a dick :P

My heart goes out to you. I’m an Alexandrian HP who has moved to Denmark. I’m trying to bootstrap a coven too! It was very interesting listening to your comments. It certainly is not an easy task. 😢

Hello Jack, got a question for you that I hope you will be willing (or permitted) to answer. In the Gardnarian tradition Ihave always understood it to be based on working pairs of male and female, yet the coven size is limited to 13 members. The 13th member would be unpaired, why 13 members and what is the role, or what does that person represent. I am not a newbie to the Craft having taught for close to 35 years.. but I have never found a good answer to that question, at least one coming from a Gardnarian. You can find lots of answers on the internet, but they are really scattered, running from "it represents the man in black (with various explanations of just what that is)" to it's a specialized position of leadership and counsel, some cite it as being an "elder" position, some a "maiden" position. I had hoped to find someone to give a good sensible explanation, and after watching many of your videos I know you are the person who could do that.