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Yep...

Yes, the BGA version is great but not without bugs. For example there is one that prevents you from drawing cards before exercising both Mars U and Olympus Conference effects (if you have both down) which can be really gamebreaking. But yeah, it only seems logical to me that a game with a simple layout such as that on BGA would be patched more quickly. The developers working on Terraforming Mars on steam are very passionate, but it's a small team working on very bad original code. I'm part of the beta discord server and I know their struggle... But of course if you want to stick to BGA that's fair game. I will continue playing both versions :)

@@marsexpert4276 I might understand that they are small team, but what I don't understand is why bugs continue to exist over year+ I've just had a reshuffle bug in bga, I'll submit a ticket and it'll be corrected in 2-3 days, maximum a week. This is a whole different approach

Also I absolutely love games where you accumulate a truckload of cards and pop off with AGT, but man does it suck to be on the receiving end of that.

Sometimes I'm at the receiving end of the science combo and while it's not always fun, it can result in very interesting games! And regarding the thumbnail, thanks for letting me know! There has definitely been a mixup. I'll look into it when I get home from work...

Well, I hope we'll get the next season of OTML soon...

Maybe you should make your own tier list

You're right, I should've stuck to one definition of how I want to rank the tags and probably it would have made more sense to rank the tags based on "Does the tag alone improve the quality of the card?". That question influenced my rating of the event tag, but for example clearly not of the city tag. Thanks for your input!

@@peterblack_ don't see a point. He is right on most of the tags and in general I don't think knowing "the good tags" does much to advance knowledge. My tier list video is probably as much as I'll do on that topic

Luna Governor is one of my favourite cards because of that :D Anf thanks, I appreciate it! Glad you're enjoying the content :)

I definitely like it a lot. However, it changes the flow of the game quite a bit! So while I don't see a reason to play without Prelude and therefore play pretty much every game with it, I don't feel the same about Colonies. Sometimes I want to play with it, sometimes I don't. But that's not a bad thing! It increases replayability and introduces cool new mechanics, corps and projects - so definitely a top tier expansion in my opinion!

I think this tier list does have a problem as some others in the comments have already pointed out. I rated some tags based on the average card quality of that tag and some on the pure value of the tag itself. The event tag itself has negative value in total in my opinion, even though it has some combo potential, since it negates all other tags. That's why I put it in F tier. However I ranked the City tag for example based on average card quality. But that's what I get for just freestyling a tier list. At least we get some interesting discussions in the comments :D

Yes I think this tier list does indeed have a problem as some others in the comments have also pointed out. I rated some tags based on the average card quality of that tag and some on the pure value of the tag itself. So, yeah you're absolutely right. At least we get some interesting discussions in the comments :D

Honestly, yeah you could argue for that. The average card quality isn't great but the tag has quite some combo potential.

@@marsexpert4276 good tier list though my friend :).

All very valid points, especially the one about Jovians. I didn't even consider the fact that a lot of Jovians are introduced in the expansions that do not hold a space tag (and you're completely right about that) and how that would affect the strategy. Very good observation although it probably wouldn't influence my rating that much.

The Event Tag will have a use for the Spire corporation. It is counted as a second tag (in space, science or earth etc. events).

At least Hellas and Elysium add some utility for the City tag. I hope we get a city-oriented expansion someday. It would be nice for cities in general to be more useful. Hell, I would love a good reason to consider building a standard city in Gen 1.

@@sammysammyson Still other rare tags fill the same role for the Diversifier. And energy tag is earlier useful. But of course I would like to see more synergy between City and other tags.

Ah shesh I didn't know you made one already :D

@@marsexpert4276 No worries haha, I guess mine is a bit different cause I only took into account the value of the tag and not the average quality of the cards that have the tag. Also I really like earth and jovian tags XD

@@marsuniversity-tm I think your approach makes quite a bit more sense and a lot of people have pointed out the inconsistency in this video :D

@@marsexpert4276 There'svalue in both things, since you are going for synergy you always want to know how good the strategy that accompanies the tags is.

I think the plant tag really is that good, in my opinion on par with science but of course it's debatable.

@@marsexpert4276 But aren't Insects and NRA too diluted when playing with all expansions? The other green combo cards require microbes or animals while Jovian is more independent win condition.

@@tomaszvexling yes the green combo gets diluted, but so do the science and jovian combos as well. There are no new Jovian mults in the expansions and while there are some science combo pieces, most of them (except Warp Drive) reach the level of the best base game cards. The green combo only gets two really good new additions: GMO Contract and Topsoil Contract. But that's not nothing.

@@marsexpert4276 Ok but Topsoil buffs microbes, not plants. Jovian multipliers get diluted but you have better titan options for them and many good floater cards. I think they're stronger than before or just the same level while plant tag is less significant. The power of plant tag was split between them and other green tags. Science is I think still quite universal.

True, that award definitely makes the tag more valueable, you're absolutely right. Probably could've bumped it into B tier then...

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy the content and thanks for the support! I actually own very little fan-made content. I bought a map randomization expansion that basically consists of different map pieces that you can slide together, an expansion that let's you randomize milestones and awards (which we will get with Prelude 2 anyways) and a set of fan made preludes. These preludes actually have a different back, but I don't think that matters that much in comparison to project cards having a different back. So I actually own no expansion that adds new project cards, but my advice would be to sleeve the cards with card sleeves that are not look-through on the back. Then you cannot distinguish fan made cards from real ones no matter how they look. And in terms of having played fan-made content - I can only speak about High Orbit which I have played maybe two times on Tabletop Simulator - definitely well made and interesting although a bit unbalanced.

Liebs

Thanks for the support! And the webcam thing: I'll fix that in future streams! Thanks for letting me know :) (just know that the next few gameplay vids are already prerecorded so if you're only watching on TH-cam it will take a while until it's changed :D )

I appreciate the discussion points! I absolutely agree to you that Supply Drop would have been the superior pick to Turbines here. I don't need to rush Planner and Point Luna really lacks starting capital so the MC differential between those two preludes is even more prevalent. Huge Asteroid is a top tier prelude for sure, but I think with this start it's less great, since the alternatives are so great. Allied Banks is enhanced because of PL and Supply Drop is just what we need as one of the poorest corps in the game. I was a little weaker as a player back then, so my inability to see Supply Drop as the right pick was just a straight up misplay.

Yes it's pretty good but I was pretty cash poor and had AI Central, so I don't think I really needed it.

I think the fantasia corporation is supposed to tempt people to be the 3$ by offering you a mid card

Yes, the fact that it doesn't require you to have steel prod definitely helps making the card more playable!

Could've definitely gone for Tharsis yeah. The line sounds reasonable, I think I was just afraid of using Space Mirrors :D

Clearly one of the best outlets for Enceladus yes!

Actually, that's a very interesting idea. I haven't found too many instances where Head Start is that amazing, but for Fuyuki Conglomerate, it could be a great way to set you up economically!

Yeah it's way too strong 😅

Yeah, for some reason I thought you could only play cards with global requirements, but a quick rules check proved me wrong. I mean you still get two useful tags and a plant prod out of the prelude, but still...Bad value.

True! Didn't think about that...that's a very niche but useful strategy!

I agree that Pluto is better. It's gamechanging as it grants everyone access to card draw at all times... that changes the value of cards and the flow of the game dramatically

​@@marsexpert4276Have you changed anything else in the order inside the tiers?

​@@tomaszvexling I didn't really order the colonies within the tiers, but with regards to Pluto, I even said during the video that I think it's better than Pluto :D And no, atm I think this tier list still reflects my opinion on the strength of the colonies perfectly!

@@marsexpert4276 Ok. But how would you order the colony tiles in the tiers?

@@tomaszvexling Maybe like this (but don't consider this set in stone): 1. Pluto 2. Luna 3. Ceres 4. Triton 5. Miranda 6. Titan 7. Callisto 8. Ganymede 9. Enceladus 10. Europa 11. Io

Classic :D

oh you just figured it out lol :D Too late ofc :D

@@pauliusmatonis1492 Yeah and I only figured it out because my opponent played a city :D sometimes man...

@pauliusmantonis1492 That SP ocean with 7 oceans while being 3 heat bumps from free ocean with one heat bump from heat on hand too and heat being the primary factor to for closing out the game… le oof. Was a sloppy one, for sure. Seen plenty of cleaner MarsExpert matches, seems like a bit of an off game this time to me.

Gen 2 draft hits imp hydro. Feels really punishing not taking Dome and instead taking allies already, Gen 3 ocean convert and the game already feels pretty won if opponent doesn’t drop global discounts or Econ plus per turn card draw by the end of Gen 3 in a quick race.

Hard punished further in Gen 3 draft. Only buy imp hydro and stockpile Gen 2, open and fp Nitro Moss, wheel great dam, get passed algae, open on imp hydro convert for 2 plants, play nitro, play adapt tech, play algae with Psychro, great damn is free if it can be afforded. You have control over all tracks, a huge lead in points, Gardner locked, terraforming incoming, a legit 8 fund of landlord, and a 100 in 9 gens or 115-120 in 10 line of play here.

Yeah Dome Farming over Allied Banks seems obvious and I don't know why I kept Worms...weird.

@@jeffreyculbert2093 yes, Dome would have been much much better.

Just take your time in the openers more. Since there’s no draft for it on Steam it’s the most critical point of the game and heavily influences the outcomes. Don’t be in a rush, work through all the options, understand which lines are aiming to do what and have a good feel for the timing of when plays will be made in those lines and THEN settle on what you’re going to open on. This might be the area of your game that needs the most work, not rushing your opening choices and finding the optimal set up in blind since you’ll have no information about opponent’s set up without draft mode.

It’s a good habit to play without the score tracker from time to time so you learn to count and calculate without mod assistance that you won’t have in an IRL tournament. Score tracker is nice and all, but over reliance on it can become a crutch. There’s really no need for it, though it is a nifty and convenient feature.

A lot of good points! Yes, I can not do math and routinely do missplays because of that. Yes, I sometimes overvalue awards in the end and this was a case of that - the card count alone should have been an argument not to worry about it. And yes, I need the score mod!

Wild tags only count as a tag of your choice while you are performing an action, so no, they do not count towards, Ganymede Colony, Water Import from Europa or Io Mining. But they do count towards Terraforming Ganymede and enable you to play Beam from a Thorium Asteroid, two high impact Jovian cards.

Absolutely!

In highly competitive circles Rover actually gets worse the higher the player count past 3. 4 and 5 player games are much more fast paced and often much more positional in nature than lower player count formats. It’s extremely common to see several cities placed by preludes in 4p and 5p and the amount of space that is often taken up early prior to rover being able to be played dramatically hurts the value of this card. The ideal situation for early Rovers is a 3p format setting in general. 2p don’t make a lot of cities, 4p and 5p make cities too early too often to secure prime real estate, but 3p there’s a good shot of generating solid efficient value from Rovers.

I agree with Jeffrey, in 4p and 5p a lot of cities are rushed out early, so if you draw Rover in gen 4 it's often useless. But if you get it gen 1 and nothing has been placed yet, it's definitely great. And yes, in 2p it's horrendous.

Honestly our table top games are kind of stupid, we are 5 players, no Turmoil and we do 9 generations to finish it :) They are very strange

@@yanakievful and that's completely fine. If you're playing on the board with friends, do whatever you like and mess around as long as it's fun! :D

9 generations in 5 player!!!! Holy moly, that’s wild. 2100+ rated 5 player games basically never go longer than gen 5, and I’ll personally finish about 15-20% of my 2p games in 9 or less.

Outpost is the only S tier city. Its combo potential, low cost, and useful tags combine to provide insane value game in and game out.

I am 100% certain it has to be placed in S tier. It offers a global discount, is cheaper than most cities (factor in the power prod), offers three useful tags (science combos, builder, diversifier) and can be paid for with steel. For me, it's one of the top ten best cards in the base game and I'm quite certain most top players agree. In fact, a few weeks ago ThreadPacifist (check out his TH-cam) made a tier list for all base game cards and placed Research Outpost at the very top. He says it's the best card in the game and he's one of the top 20 players online.

Hm... maybe u right and i underestimated this card for the long time. Anyway, thank you so much for your video. I learned a lot. Great channel!

@marsexpert Thread said what now…??!?!!?? Gonna have to convene a council of the purple plusses and see how we feel about such a claim.

@@jeffreyculbert2093 hahaha well I was also somewhat surprised

Thanks mate :) To get the images of the cards, I took screenshots of them in tabletop simulator.

Missing some of the components on steam, but have had Rover, S Tech, and Pets in openers as both Credicor and Tharsis. It’s not good (lacks game control and loses to any decently high rated opponent due to that fact), but it is ridiculously hilarious. Highly recommend as a challenge mode option to entertain yourself or a new player with a goofy strat that you won’t be able to play often in competitive situations.

These fun combos are what I'm trying to get down when I'm playing on the board with friends :D Oh Meat Industry - I want that card on Steam so much! That together with Pets, Herbivores and Ecozone is just hilarious.

Rover construction is not a card that performs well against strong opponents who have a better grasp of game control. It can be an efficient point scorer in some scenarios (particularly when you have metals to spend on it and I tend to drop a city or two in the near future), but is not an ideal card to build a focused strategy around as the line of play it encourages is extremely inefficient in scoring terms. At the top level of competition this is a high D tier, low C tier card with some very specific situations in 3 player where it can perform at the level of the lowest B tier cards. If your playgroup is this high on the card then it means they misunderstand the fundamentals of the game and misevaluate cards from a scoring efficiency in combination with line of play perspective and have a weakness that is easily exploited by top tier players who have an in depth understanding of game state scenarios and game control.

Rover might gain value in groups that, for some reason, prioritize early game cities. But it is not really a good way to win at this game.

As the others said, Rover Construction is not a great card when playing competitively and especially not when playing 2p. Cities are just not placed often and early enough for it to pay off (quickly). It can be a good card in certain situations (higher player counts and very early on if no other cities have been played yet) and it can be good in your playgroup. That just means you're playing a bit slower game with more focus on groundgame and cities in general. But online, I'd not recommend picking it up most of the time.

@@jeffreyculbert2093 in the worst case you spend 11 MC but you can always get some discount or pay for it with steel. It's not difficult to have at least 6 cities placed after playing that unless it's the very end of the game, so in that case you get more money than what you spent AND a VP. If this is not good, then what? :)

6 cities. Yikes. Cities are for suckers. Mars is meant to be made green, not grey, at least if you want to score points effectively and efficiently in competitive settings! I’m not keen on spending 150ish credits to score 0 points ever, for that much of a credit investment I’d want to be scoring 40 points or more and have some degree of control over the parameter tracks to dictate when the game ends so I can actually, ya know, win.

Yes, 1 point animals are that much better because of cards like Large Convoy, Imported Nitrogen, Imported Hydrogen, ...

I mean he still gets a milestone for free...it's just that he could've improved that play by a bit by just claiming it 2 gens later or so.

@@marsexpert4276 absolutely. he was losing in every gen after that until the final one, where he pulled two Jovian multipliers 🙃

You mean Merger + Double Down to play with 3 corps at the same time? No, I have to say I never did that. Never got so luck as to get both of them 😅

@@marsexpert4276 we discussed it yesterday when we played the other day and we found out that should that combo come up, even with the card that allows you to draw 3 prelude cards and play one, it might even break the game if you get a corp that has a higher starting sum than 42.

@@paintingwithmartin how do you mean it breaks the game? Sure, it can be strong, but I don't see it as inherently gamebreaking...

@@marsexpert4276 I agree it can be strong and since I haven't tested it (yes of course you can script it and see how it plays out) it is hard to say. If you get say Vitor, Helion/Ecoline and Terractor you are in for an insane start. Not too short on cash and very geared up for a very versatile start.

There's two tournaments like this. Both are organized on the hodgepodge discord. He's another Terraforming Mars streamer and his discord server is the biggest community channel with all of the strong players on there. Just check out one of his videos and his discord server will be linked in the description! 1) The silver elo tournament for players under 2000 elo 2) The gold elo tournament for players over 2000 elo

Yeah, wound up playing pets into Tharsis, making 4 cities to keep helping Tharsis, and wound up heat bumps short of ending fast with a win. Pets legitimately cost you this game, this was not the opener for playing Pets. Should absolutely have won this game in 9 here.

​​@@jeffreyculbert2093not knowing you're up against Tharsis until after you buy your starting hand, I think it's still a perfectly valid start with Pets and Outpost! out of all the moments that cost Expert in such a tight game (namely missing the 8% heat bump, and perhaps drafting Capital over Rad Chem Factory), I certainly wouldn't say Pets was the deciding factor. and his second city didn't go down until Gen 7, so he didn't feed Tharsis's engine more than you'd reasonably expect, I'd say. maybe the only changes I would've made in the starting hand are buying Advanced Ecosystems on spec (I would call THAT more consequential than Pets), and probably taking Polar Industries over Metals Company. possibly even taking Underground City to play with Peroxide Power (again, not knowing you're against Tharsis). hindsight's 20/20 though.

Pets is just plain bad here with this opener. It’s not an opener that lends itself particularly well to long games and Credicor is amazing at the tempo style on this map provided it has good heat control and teleports. Pets 100% was a choice that lost this game right out of the opener, or at the very least making the decision to pursue it puts the game more on track for 10 gens or longer and surrenders his advantage right out of the open. Dunno what Anthracite would say here but I’m relatively certain he and basically all the rest of the top 10 player in the world crowd is going to agree here that pets is at least an inaccuracy and potentially an outright blunder. I’m absolutely certain that if I replay this seed Credicor wins in 9 with both sides playing with perfect accuracy. Could ask some one on the discord to do it, I’m a bit busy, but shouldn’t be too hard to find another 2.1k to go through the seed with ya’ll.

I agree I should've leaned more into the rush potential of the hand here. Definitely think I should've picked Polar over Metals Company and if we're doing that, we can also skip pets. I also don't think Pets was the deciding factor and I think not keeping Polar was the bigger mistake, but yeah, you're right.

Pets just feels like the distraction that derailed seeing the ideal line. And because you’d committed to pets it made you want to take metals company, and then do other things that kept your line of play through out the game unfocused. It’d be an interesting seed to replay and see if opening on polar for ti, Outpost in east, peroxide, into Convoy convert gen 2 sets up well enough to take Gardner on tempo instead of being too late to Gardner + Terraformer and having to settle for something less ideal and gifting opponent points. Don’t get so distracted by shiny toys that it causes you to forgot to examine all the options and lines in the opening!

I am pretty sure you mean symptom treatment😉

Hand 1: I agree, with Experimental Forest we should definitely pick up Adaption Tech and hope for a high roll. With all of these cities I'd still keep Adapted Lichen tho. Hand 2: Would almost never go for that Big Asteroid into Comet play...seems like a lot of plant destruction wasted for a bit of development... Hand 3: Maybe Martian Industries would have been the correct pick yeah...

@@marsexpert4276thanks for the reply.:) I was kind of kidding on hand2. Yea i think the plan destruction is too valuable to blow it all on gen1 lol.