Thank you for the amazing video once again Jesse. Really cool to have these breakdowns. I’m curious to see what will happen when I continue training! I also want to go on record to say that to y’all saying I’m not “Couch To Crit” I totally hear you and understand where you are coming from. I have a decent athletic background from my childhood. However, when I started actually putting in the work to train for this series I was at a very low point and very much overweight. I’m totally aware that my athletic background has helped me tremendously when it comes to number gains but the fact of the matter is that you can change your life no matter who you are if you put in the work physically. And that’s the message I’m trying to spend. Just want to see more people on bikes. I’m lucky to have fast twitch muscles or whatever, but that’s besides the fact. Even if you gain 5 watts in 6 months. You’re still crushing it! So keep it up!
Its great that you started with talking about his sporting history. If you were serious with sports during your teens/twenties you have a huge advantage over anyone who didn't. The basis is just bigger and the body recognises the need for adaptation, sort of muscle memory. Since Norcal is also promoting a pretty expensive training program, it would be great that anyone sinking money in these should have very realistic expectations. Couch potatoes are not going to get these gains. That being said, its still very impressive how much he improved in a relative short period of time, and it motivated me to push myself further.
Very cool that you did this follow up video. The finale highlighting the 83kg is key and something I didn't think through enough. Keep it up Jesse! Please continue to make more content.
Love the analysis and it's great to hear because I am finally able to draw some parallels with my journey. I too have a baseball and soccer background and am "new" to cycling in my 20s and 30s. Started in the upper 190s FTP and have now sort of leveled off around 280. Interested to watch EJs journey to see how they progress through!
Lifelong athlete, let it go for a few years, rediscovered cycling, and power gains came quick. Very believable (and familiar, the rate of gains tails off quickly too!). With a relatively large weight/W'/anaerobic capacity, I can skew the 20-minute "FTP" test by recovering out of the saddle. Especially on a fixed trainer where little counter-torque effort is required. I think the test protocol is to stay in the saddle to minimize anaerobic contribution because of this. Good content all around. Thanks.
Well done, a very fair review! With your first review of the C2C v2 material, there was the possibility that you were going to come at it from the point of view of just a hater, however, you have done a very fair and even-handed job of sticking to the facts and the results. I believe that it is very fair and necessary to include the previous general athletic background in the overall discussion and analysis (well done!). I am a big fan of the NorCal & NorCal2 channel content, if I had to call them out on one thing it would be a bit of a 'branding' generalization in the impression they are giving with the title 'Couch To Crit'. The general impression is that of the complete absolute beginning with no fitness/athletic background....that is not exactly where EJ has started. Certainly he deserves massive props for his overall weight/health/fitness journey (which you have recognized), however, he was a college athlete, that is very different that the 'off the couch' person with absolutely no athletic background. Your review/update here was very well done!
Dude I've been following you for quite a while now but I must say I'm so impressed with your content, there's not a second of this video where I would disagree with you, starting with the spors history just to have it in mind but not over insisting on it is very fair, pointing out both that the progression is impressive but that the raw numbers aren't that crazy according to his weight, etc... all you say is so well balanced and right, I don't see how anyone can disagree with you, even Twitter keyboard warriors
Great video, defo agree that the power is possible. 1.5 year ago I got my first “racing” bike and did a ftp test after 2 months of doing almost everything wrong and got to a 3.5 watt per kg ftp (245 watt). 2 months after that I was already at a 4.0 watt per kg ftp (285 watt), with just doing intervals all the time. Now that I’ve done my first “base” block I made a massive jump again, so with his approach and his talent/previous situation the power seems to be achievable, though I’m gonna be calling bs aswell, if he gets to a 385 watt ftp within the next months😂.
Just fyi if he did this on the stages sb20 smartbike, which I think he did. It tends to over read power data when riding out the saddle so maybe take this with a pinch of salt but nerverthelese big improvement.
I appreciate you calling out the trade off between chasing FTP gains and fast twitch muscle fibers. He’s a talented athlete and will be very successful with his current fitness if he can learn the bike handling and pack riding skills to smooth out his power during a race. I’m hoping his next videos focus on racing well rather than continuing to chase FTP gains or w/kg improvements.
Great video, serious talent. 8:52 video clock - I don’t understand how the power increases that much when the cadence doesn’t shift as much? Even with a gear switch pre sprint, wouldn’t you see the power/cadence drop to prep for the sprint?
Fun to stumble on a year later. This is also a story of a high/elite level athlete retooling for a different sport. Not as clickbaity, but Ethan is really changing his body. Super fun series.
That part about the lower cadence makes sense to me. I’m naturally a sprinter and have a lot of fast twitch. Slow twitch has come difficult for me. This helps me to know that a shorter ftp may be less accurate for me
You ever tried a ramp test? I recently got 251w on mine, yet I can barely make it through 3x15 @ 220w (though I've spent barely any time at threshold recently) Seems to massively overread for "sprinter/punchier types"
The trouble with using w/kg is as you've already hinted at. A heavier rider with a 330 watt FTP and a lighter rider with a 280 watt FTP will have the same w/kg. BUT, the heavier rider is far more powerful, so when up against that lighter rider they will smash it on a crit like the one he won. To the heavier rider with a 330 watt FTP, 280 watts is in the tempo zone so not very taxing at all. But that would be an all out effort for the lighter rider. To me w/kg only comes into play on climbs.
It can come into play in tight 6-8 corner criteriums with a lot of accelerations. Heavy riders may have a more difficult time with a ton of acceleration.
I’m a 50-something guy who has been riding and training “self coached” for a while. Took a month off the bike in the middle of last year. Started working with a coach in October and tested my FTP at 274W. It’s now at 310W. Unfortunately, I’m a bit heavier than EJ so my W/kg is nothing special Given that EJ is younger than me, coming off a lower base of training and probably just plain better than me - his improvement is definitely possible. As it turns out, he may not have been the best subject for NorCal’s couch to crit series because he is definitely an outlier and most people will not get his results.
You are special in your own category. I am almost 50, started 3 years ago, never had ftp higher than 220, and am a hard worker! Still, my improvements are so slow, that I can only sprint for a good 40 seconds for local koms but, anything that goes longer than 5 minutes at a fast aerobic pace, puts me in a hard position. Now you are at 310W, this is a massive number sorry.
the pattern of very low cadence suggests it was a deliberate strategy - i wonder if he had come across the idea from his own experimentation or if it is a known way to boost the 20min numbers for a rider with a lot of anaerobic ability. Would be interesting to see how he would go in a 60 min test, or with a ramp test with blood lactate measurements
Hi Jesse I follow you guys on youtube I am 79 years old weigh 78-80 kgs cycling background way back when been on zwift for years level 51 looking at doing a Zwift workout is there anything you can suggest to start that will keep everything working Thanks mate fan of your shoe Colin
Totally second this analysis, I had the chance to ride with EJ just beore this test, we both had ridden hard the day before, I had raced. I'm just below 4w/kg ftp, and put him on a hill after 1.5hrs z2, and would have to say he was really working to hold my wheel after ~5min. Short climb. I'm much more of a pure climber type, can barely hit 800-900 on a sprint. So have to agree with muscle type analysis. Very impressive still. I'm about that 70kg /280w ftp you mention.
Great follow up Jesse, thanks for making it. Besides the '2x ftp' challenge, does he really need much more of an aerobic engine for this season? If we call FTP the ticket to the party, he's already got an invite to Cat 4,3 and low 2's with 330+/- surely? If he can add some quality vo2 efforts now, he has a pretty formidable race winning arsenal.
He will get to cat3 and get a strategic wake up call. I saw him make many mistakes that I would have capitalized on in his cherry pie race win. Like the last corner before the sprint he let a gap open up, I always race to and sprint out of the last corner no matter the finishing length. Will be interesting to see how he does in cat3, most cat 3's close to their 2 upgrade are closer to 4.5w/kg so if EJ can stay with the front group he will probably have a good shot at winning a sprint.
@@ryancraig999 Yeah I agree but I think by the time he is racing with the 3s he will have fixed most strategic mistakes. For crits that are flat its my opinion that absolute raw watts are more important, coupled with repeatability at high watt sprints which he has both. He is a big guy though so easy to draft behind and he doesn't get as good for a draft so there is that. I'm 2.5 years in and have just a 4.1w/kg FTP but I'm very anerobic with repeatability and a big sprint and its enough to win me a lot of A group Crits and a State Championship. 80kg, 5'8' so short with 800w for 1min/1500 for 5sec. Goal is 4.5w/kg one day... I'm more then my weakish FTP.
Ethan is defiantly not a guy coming off the couch. I'm happy for his gains and very impressive results. But, I doubt any person coming off the couch will have a starting ftp of 260. I would love to see them use an actual beginner and see the results.
He says his ftp was 190 from his first FTP test on one of the Norcal cycling videos, I believe this was before he did the 6 month block of z2 training.
@@Spacewolf5 What I'm starting to find is that this serie is extremely distorded and unclear. 1) We find out he was doing moutain bike in his teens : What is mountainbiking ? It's the first sport every young man currently in pro stage has made. It means basically he could have had already a 250-300watt ftp at 15-16 yo. 2)He was then doing baseball so a lot of sprints/strenght workouts which means he trained a lot his anaerobic capacity just like biking. Given the photos he was doing it at a fairly good level. 3)Then maybe he takes 2-3 years off and start gaining weight. From that point it's very very easy to get only 190w at an FTP test if you're untrained. Even a professional cyclist without only a few months of training can lose 50w on a 20mn test. - I'm now at 295-305w FTP personnaly but I KNOW for sure that every time I drop off the bike/exercise for 1-2 months my first FTP test is 220-230 max. It's an extremely difficult test so coming untrained is basically suicide. After 4 weeks I am at 250 again and after 3-4 months I'm back at 280-290w. In this way I could do the same : How to get from 220w to 290w in 4 months ? I could show that very easily and it could be very appealing. 4) It's very suspect that he starts the serie with 3-4h rides 5 days a week even "untrained". I have some good friends they are athletics but they never rode bike for long rides and after a 4h ride they need 1week to recover. So it confirms point 1) 5) Same point on sprint power he's doing 1500w and in my case I'm doing exactly the same numbers because I've made a lot of strenght/boxing trainings when I was younger. So the argument "I'm gifted because I'm doing 1500w without sprint work" In this case I'm in the exact same situation even if I'm smaller and lighter than him. I'm a quite ordinary guy so I'd say he trained his sprint power but not on the bike that's all. To conclude I think he made an extremely well done recovery from his younger-self athlete and I think he's very smart, organized, and well trained. He was basically out of shape and went back to his level when he was younger 4w/kg lvl. Also considering the FTP test at low cadence and unsaddled is technicaly wrong. The problem here is internet basically : Distorded reality. I'm in a triathlon club and I saw some guys running 3h30 marathons and now running 2h50 for their first time without being elite younger. It took them years (5 minimum) their body changed, they trained, they plateau'd some years, then had a breaktrough, then kept pushing it trough the years. It takes time for your body to adapt and reshape. Not a question of genetics. Internet keep pushing us "outliers" and it makes us in despair and wanting to stop the plateau and buy a training course that's the lesson I learned with all these videos. That's how coaches earn their money.
@@user-ur5vw1gi4v Kind of that... I am not supertalented, I am not overweight. But did nothing for last let's say 6-8 months, having very bad habits and all. But i was doing some bike before, not structured training. Than I got zwift, my first FTP test was very underwhelming, after a month of riding and structure, it raised by 30%
Very good analysis Jesse. When I started training more seriously I went from an FTP of 280 to 320 quite quickly but marginal gains then became more difficult to make. I got to 340 and started to plateau over a couple of years. My gains since have been through dedicated, persistent high Z2 training - ie converting muscle into Type I just as you say. Weight dropped from c85kg initially to currently around 75kg. Just on the way the FTP test was done, I think putting in grinding 40-50 rpm efforts is really gaming the test. The idea is that you have a 20min watt number which when multiplied by 95% approximates the watts you can sustain over 40-60 minutes. If your 20 min number is inflated by a massive one-off glycolytic effort then the 95% rule will overestimate what you can achieve over 40-60 mins. That is why some FTP tests (eg Zwift’s 20 min test) give you a 5 min above FTP effort 10 mins before your test, to try to take away a chunk of the glycolytic benefit if you have a lot of Type II muscle. The 20 mins watts in genuine as you say, but it won’t extrapolate to 40-60 mins unless you take a smaller % of it than 95%.
He's basically hidden his power numbers for months. But the 'race' against his mate up those hills a couple of weeks ago it was shown briefly. The numbers were nowhere close to someone with a 250-260W FTP which he was claiming at the time. Low 300s minimum. It's sandbagging. Unless he can only sustain very short efforts, and has no endurance ... which would make no sense given the training volume and distance he's been able to do.
Hi Jesse, I seem to be in a similar situation, I'm 84kg estimated FTP of 307w but that is probably not accurate as I've never done a FTP test. I have a very similar cycling background although more competition based and structured training with regards to strength and power. (I raced BMX at an elite level for 10 years on and off) I'm curious to know what sort of Wattage could be produced without now getting back in the gym. I can produce 1585w currently and was able to do 690w for 1 minute on a slow cadence hill climb recently while training. With some sprint work on the bike would 1800w be achievable?
Genuinely thought I was losing my mind for about 20 minutes trying to find that summarized sauce power view in Strava. Finally realized that it's a browser extension 😂
Being a heavy rider myself, I can attest to the fact that these large numbers don't necessarily translate to results. Im in a similar situation to him when he started, grinding it out every day to lose weight first and then focus on training. my max power is 1648w, Ive got an ftp of around 310. But I am 110kg sooo i hang with the beginners most of the time.
Cadence is an interesting thing. On zwift for instance on flat courses I'm usually comfortable 90-100rpm or so. However, when I do one of the climbs on zwift where I run out of gears, I'm happy enough at lower cadences (60s, 70s) and usually produce my best power numbers. It feels wrong to me to pedal at those low cadences on flat terrain.
If you were his coach, would you even advise him to go after that kind of FTP? If I understand you correctly, there are tradeoffs to be made... could someone who is a "fast-twitch monster" be better off focusing on something else? I guess that even sprint specialists need pretty high FTP to even get to the sprint but at what point does trying to raise your FTP became counterproductive? Is there such a point? And what about track sprinters? Participating in a track sprint race would certainly make for an interesting TH-cam video.
Did exactly the same, started by riding for fun for almost a whole year and then jumped into structured training. Went from 220- to 300 Watts in a year at 70 kg. But Holy guacomoly, his sprints are crazy, even at 83 kg. Can't wait for the final update. Maybe some insight into his training and lifestyle changes would be interesting if the actually achieves the 384 Watt goal.
Jesse , is power number in Strava are ligit? It is not possible to pair power meter in Strava ? Or Strava gets power number from third party apps ( trainingpeak) ?
Hi @Enot Strava pulls the power number from the fit file generated from your cycling computer which is synced with a powermeter hope this answers your question!
To me it doesn't look like that, the power data from the races looks spot on. The trainer data is always hard to judge though because there's nothing to compare it against, just virtual speed from Zwift
1. Assuming BMX is a lot of sprint power so not surprised that comes naturally to him(Still, 1500w wow!). 2. Could his first FTP test have been a poor representation of his true strength? Might have been good to see one a week or two after some threshold workouts. 3. My best 20 min power (in a race) includes a lot of 50 rpm out-of-the-saddle riding. I don't consider that to be my true FTP because my RPE is lower standing than seated. I also don't consider myself to be fast-twitch (max sprint is 900w) so interested to hear more about the correlation between grinding and fast-twitch fibres. 4. In my tests, standing @50rpm is on avg 1.6km/hr slower than seated. For me, a practical ftp test has to be seated (probably doesn't matter for crits but makes a big difference on long climbs.
Yep you have a point, there are 20m max tests for tracking fitness improvements, in which case you just do whatever the hell you need to do to get the most watts out as possible. Seated, standing, 40 RPM, 120 RPM, doesn't matter, you're still having to produce the power. But if you're someone who races, or does time trials, there is a specificity component where you may want to constrain your testing to make it a closer replication of the demands of your events. So if you race flat crits all year, you may do FTP tests outside only on a flat stretch of road, no hills. If TT's are you goal, you may do your entire 20m test seated, don't allow yourself to stand. As a pure fitness test, none of that matters though. Watts are still watts at the end of the day, no matter how you produce them, if you are wanting to measure pure physiological output.
I was really stunned at how he seemed to only do endurance type training… very little sprint work, and seemed like he didn’t get much training on how to race (I don’t know anything about racing). He’s talented and a diamond in the rough. He could be way better with more training and serious coaching
I’m also predominantly fast twitch and my coach always wanted me to do FTP tests seated and high cadence for that reason. I guess she was wanting to see the FTP of just my slow twitch to get a better estimate of my pre-LT zone?
Im 32 years old, 70kg, southeast asian. Started cycling 3 years ago during pandemic. Literally no, as in ZERO sports background, sedentary my whole life(video games, desk job) bec I had a lot of respiratory and thyroid issues when I was little. I did a low volume training plan(Dylan Johnson 6hrs/week) for a while. Started at 180w FTP, peaked at 262w, now hovering around 220ish due to busy work load. All FTP test are 1hr test. My question is, is it possible for me to reach the 300w range?
carry on with your training. Another thing is, for beginners big gains will come faster then it slows down a bit. Are you a slim type of person or a bulky sprinter type? because this has also an impact partially on your ftp gains.
@@clrbrk9108 That's absolutely not true. I started cycling 3 years ago after doing no cardio for a very long time. After a year and a half I got up to 300 watt FTP, and I'm 50. This guy is only early 30s, he'll easily do it within that time if he puts the hours in consistently with the right proportion of intensity variation.
@@Markhypnosis1 ok fair enough but, how big you are? How heavy you are? Injuries history... beginner big gains... 300 ftp is just a tiny part of someone s story.
@@Northwindbreeze I'm 6ft, 86kg. Only did cardio in my teens, but not for long. Been strength training religiously for 15 years. I know it's only part of the story, but it's a very good indicator of someone's aerobic fitness. If someone has an ftp of 100, it's safe to say they are very unfit. My point is that 300 watts ftp isn't that hard to achieve with consistency and the right plan.
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
Great review. I’m curious as to if setting an FTP that high is actually a bad thing since he had to use such low cadence and out of the saddle efforts. In training for crits it seems like riders use a higher cadence and seated most the time (since 50rpm standing is useless in most crits) and therefore if he is basing say over/Unders off of say 105-110%/ 90-95% he might have to stand or just hold very low cadence and therefore not work the aerobic system and type 1 fibers properly. I don’t know, I’m no coach, just curious as I too and a high anaerobic rider that started cycling a couple years ago and have struggled with increased threshold power/time but have good repeatability and a sprint.
The way he did the test was a pure physiological test, whatever needs to be done to produce the most watts. But you are right, that power isn't going to translate well to crits or even flat TT's on the road.To be fair to EJ, he never said the "FTP" tests were designed to translate to his racing. They were a seperate goal, to get as fit as possible (i.e. produce the most raw watts).
@@nerocoaching The folks at trainerroad seem to think that FTP tests should be done seated or the results are thrown off. I believe they are considering the numbers from the point of view of setting your workout zones, rather than as a performance benchmark, however. It's funny because Jeff from norcal stands during his FTP tests also and was called out for it a bit in one of their videos where they had a group all testing their FTP on trainerroad at the same time.
Strange, seems to be a constraint to the test they are adding in to get the FTP results more "accurate", because they know 95% of peak 20m, or a ramp test, is not always accurate. The problem is saying to just sit down the entire time doesn't make the test fair to everyone. Personally I would naturally sit down the entire time anyway, other riders may naturally spend half the time standing, so you're just introducing more inaccuracy into the results. And then for the rider that prefers to stand more you're not even getting a true representation of their current 20m best power, which is part of the whole point of doing the test. I'd say do the best 20m you can, so at least you've got that value accurate, but just be cautious using 95% of that as FTP. May need to take a couple of percent off based on your own analysis of what is a more realistic actual FTP.
Also one other issue I have with it, just because a rider is standing doesn't necessarily mean their an anaerobic powerhouse, so standing isn't skewing their results. I know plenty of predominately slow twitch riders, who struggle to crack 800w, that just spend time riding out of the saddle for comfort reasons, and because they have built some good aerobic efficiency in that position. So saying to someone in that situation that they can't stand up will massively punish their 20m power and won't lead to any more accurate FTP estimation. The idea of forcing riders to sit so they "can't use their anaerobic power" doesn't make physiological sense in many cases
@@nerocoaching I'm not sure what their answer would be. But I think they're trying to figure out lactate threshold so that target zones will train the expected energy systems. If you find a way to 'game' the test for a better result that also puts you over the lactate threshold, then you've screwed up the test from their POV. -Maybe. :)
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
Fair play to the guy he has smashed it. I am surprised of your view on the test. The test seems to be a 20m effort and not within a protocol. The test should be a test of your aerobic system whilst he seems to be overpowering the test by being out of the saddle. The data you showed didn’t have the vo2 block prior to the 20m test section so the 95% calculation isn’t valid. Furthermore Like any test you try to control all variables whilst the out of the saddle low cadence section will provide variability with past and any future efforts. Interesting to see the improvements but I can’t say I’d say all the data is comparable.
The max watts aren't that impressive to me as someone who started off cycling with big sprints like that. What's insanely impressive to me is that hes actually able to use it in a race. I would have definitely been dropped from all of those corner surges he was doing and still being able to dump 1500 at the end of the fit race seems like he wasn't really pushing it at all. Seems like he's really efficient at clearing lactate.
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
@@nerocoaching Hello. Thank you for answering. When you take the ftp test on zwift, they say that you have to sit all the way through. But then I will both sit and stand the next time I take the ftp test 😀
My FTP is at least 20w lower on the trainer than my outside, and i have tested quite a bit......i'm not sure about the differences in cadence on the trainer though??? How the F*&K do you do 40rpm's on the trainer?????? Seems odd to me
Hate being that guy but man...the numbers are tough to believe for a guy who's not really being doing cycling "training" very long. A lot of instances of very rare, fast twitch freak, genetically gifted type of stuff. Maybe he truly is a freak but this being attached to a program for sale and seeming to good to be true has me suspicious
Hey Jesse, I’m don’t want to say anything bad about EJ, AND I’m not saying he did anything on purpose, BUT!!! can’t a beginner learn how to take the FTP test to improve their score without gaining any fitness? So his beginning FTP test might have been a little low??
I always find it interesting when you ride with a guy with lots of fast twitch. It is quite rare as most people are much of a muchness. Often the guy is just this normal average looking non-descript guy but when he puts down the power its like wholly sh!t! Where did that come from?!
If he has that all sports background then I can’t see anything magic happening. Just a good training approach. 2 years ago I started structure with 3,2 wkg, 3 months of sweet spot plan (which I’m not really a fan right now) and I was 3,9 wkg. I can also put about 1,5 kW with 70 kg but I did some 100m sprint competitions in my early school years so that makes it possible. They just shouldn’t fool people that pure couch potato will get that all crazy gains when he just buy a plan.
you right. What people did before counts 100%. What is your body type-wise? type 2 fibers mostly aka sprinter? I am interested to know since you mention you are not a fan right now of SS.
Yea, I think I’m definitely type 2 fiber guy. Pretty big quads. Low fat. Was struggling with long efforts in my youth - 1km run was a big no no, just felt like a couch potato 😆 But then I just could smoke any “athletic” guy on a short sprint. Chasing my buddies that were sprinting on bike, I could catch them by a foot 😂 But It was at least 15 years ago. Right now I’m almost 29 (178cm, 70kg) and FINALLY found out how that endurance base is important and started working on my slow twitch fibers after a few months break from a bike. Lots of zone 2. More time on a bike comparing to that funny 3-4 hours per week that I did hammering that SS plan. 2 months in on polarized plan and I can already notice big improvements in my resting HR, HR to power, feeling on a bike that I didn’t when was on a sweet spot plan some time ago.
Exactlty this. They make so much money with the "I've never done any sport and now I'm a pro - Buy my course" Ask Frodeno to stop training for 2 years, ask him to gain 10kg then do a video serie of him "How I went from 200w FTP and 2w/kg to 450FTP and 6w/kg in 6 months" Internet is almost dangerous at this point.
I don't see the point in doing an FTP test if you aren't riding your bike like you would outdoors. The extra watts you may get from grinding is negated by aero drag being created by riding out of the saddle for so long.
In every test I have done ALWAYS SEATED and if the athlete cannot maintain above 70rpm the test is over ! Limitations must apply 40 cadence seated is way too low and dangerous for the knees! Also, seated even indoors can produce more power even with the bodyweight !
Exactly, if he can get to a fitness level to do 350w for an hour, on a flat road, at a more realistic cadence (75+ RPM), he will be lethal in races with that sprint
Yep it would be unlikely he can actually do 334w for an hour on the road right now, looking at his physiology and how he completed the 20m test. Maybe in another month of training
Im not saying it's disingenuous because I'm sure they were upfront about his athletic background, but I'd like to see how well couch to crit works on an obese person
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
@@nerocoaching ok I was under the impression for the most accurate and consistent reading those tests are best done seated on a trainer. It's definitely easier to get more power out going up a hill at slow speeds while standing. So if a person got efficient out of the saddle it could skew reading making it harder to track progress. But yes generally get as much power out in a reasonable position but most ppl take the ftp test upright when that's not how they race.
I thought FTP tests are supposed to be seated tests at constant power, not average power during an effort alternating between lower power seated spinning and high-power surges while standing. I’ve only done ramp tests on zwift. It says stay seated, and there are no breaks in the power to recover the slightest bit. I suspect i would get a higher ftp estimate if i could vary effort level and stand. I may give it a try and see. I’m not sure it would be the best # to set training levels off of though.
3:30 there is no correlation between low cadence grind out of saddle and fast-twitch musclefibers. It's more to do with heavier bodyweight and upper body strength. I'd even add running background because riding out of saddle enables one to use wholly different ROM for working muscles, close to running posture. I'm not particularily explosive, infact i'm below average. I can push out 1000 watts for 5 seconds, but with power profiling it's my worst aspect as cyclist. Same goes with explosive movements vs slow strength movements, i'm strong but not explosive. But i do have high amount of muscle mass and balanced strength capabilities all thru out my body so i can remain upright and hold strong position. And i like to run, so my core is good. And I can grind 20-30watts more on FTP test from standing position. At that point it becomes more about general aerobic capabilities than simply having legs. As i race only indoors i plan to use that as my secret weapon.
He was hiding his power numbers for a reason... His FTP was never 190 w, more like 290 w one year ago. If he really did gain that much power he would have been considered one of a kind, not even Pogacar or Vingegaard dont have that good of a training response. Everything for yt views, sadly.
I'll be honest This vlog of EJ's was actually making me angry. I've been doing structured cycling training for 5+ years and have been a mid distance swimmer my entire childhood, for some reason seeing him achieve these gains was frustrating me. The way you broke it down helped alleviate those jealous feelings LOL. I'm hovering around 4.6W/kg with a goal to finally get to 5 this season and it's been kind of a struggle so far. I guess I didn't realize he was 80+kg and only sitting at 4W/Kg, which I think he will likely plateau around 4.5W/Kg. Another thing he has to worry about with all those new found watts is joint health and injuries, we'll see if he can sustain this type of training volume. But I'm beyond impressed with his max power numbers, actually envious haha. I considered myself somewhat of a sprint specialist but Im starting to reconsider that as I seem to be kind of an Rouleur than a Sprinteur. Thanks for reviewing EJ's vlog it was cool to get another coaches perspective as I have a Master of Exercise Science and am super interested in those breakdowns 👌
Thank you for the amazing video once again Jesse. Really cool to have these breakdowns. I’m curious to see what will happen when I continue training!
I also want to go on record to say that to y’all saying I’m not “Couch To Crit” I totally hear you and understand where you are coming from. I have a decent athletic background from my childhood. However, when I started actually putting in the work to train for this series I was at a very low point and very much overweight. I’m totally aware that my athletic background has helped me tremendously when it comes to number gains but the fact of the matter is that you can change your life no matter who you are if you put in the work physically. And that’s the message I’m trying to spend. Just want to see more people on bikes. I’m lucky to have fast twitch muscles or whatever, but that’s besides the fact. Even if you gain 5 watts in 6 months. You’re still crushing it! So keep it up!
Well said. Watts will come and go, but your refound outlook on life will stay forever. Keep ridin' keep stayin' healthy. :)
Well done EJ, you've done amazingly well and I think Couch to Crit is a fair description. How about interviewing/chatting with Jesse on your channel?
Hey EJ, did you do this test on the SB20 by any chance?
King
You have an amazing attitude EJ. Positive and respectful.
Do me a favour. Give that poor pot plant some water 😜
Oh my god that’s hilarious!!
Its great that you started with talking about his sporting history. If you were serious with sports during your teens/twenties you have a huge advantage over anyone who didn't. The basis is just bigger and the body recognises the need for adaptation, sort of muscle memory. Since Norcal is also promoting a pretty expensive training program, it would be great that anyone sinking money in these should have very realistic expectations. Couch potatoes are not going to get these gains. That being said, its still very impressive how much he improved in a relative short period of time, and it motivated me to push myself further.
Also, Jeff has been clear that he isn’t saying everyone will get these results. You could but it depends on your individual situation.
All I wanna know is that if this improvement was all natural or he used some enhancing drugs
The vid we have all been waiting for. Bring the popcorn.
He been uploading to strava since 2015. Done a 50mile ride in early 2016. He aint no noob!
Really like that you put this video out and spent the time to actually look at the finer details without brushing over the topic. Good stuff
Very cool that you did this follow up video. The finale highlighting the 83kg is key and something I didn't think through enough.
Keep it up Jesse! Please continue to make more content.
Love the analysis and it's great to hear because I am finally able to draw some parallels with my journey. I too have a baseball and soccer background and am "new" to cycling in my 20s and 30s. Started in the upper 190s FTP and have now sort of leveled off around 280. Interested to watch EJs journey to see how they progress through!
Lifelong athlete, let it go for a few years, rediscovered cycling, and power gains came quick. Very believable (and familiar, the rate of gains tails off quickly too!).
With a relatively large weight/W'/anaerobic capacity, I can skew the 20-minute "FTP" test by recovering out of the saddle. Especially on a fixed trainer where little counter-torque effort is required. I think the test protocol is to stay in the saddle to minimize anaerobic contribution because of this.
Good content all around. Thanks.
exactly this! the FTP test is clearly rigged with those huge out of saddle portions.
Well done, a very fair review! With your first review of the C2C v2 material, there was the possibility that you were going to come at it from the point of view of just a hater, however, you have done a very fair and even-handed job of sticking to the facts and the results. I believe that it is very fair and necessary to include the previous general athletic background in the overall discussion and analysis (well done!). I am a big fan of the NorCal & NorCal2 channel content, if I had to call them out on one thing it would be a bit of a 'branding' generalization in the impression they are giving with the title 'Couch To Crit'. The general impression is that of the complete absolute beginning with no fitness/athletic background....that is not exactly where EJ has started. Certainly he deserves massive props for his overall weight/health/fitness journey (which you have recognized), however, he was a college athlete, that is very different that the 'off the couch' person with absolutely no athletic background. Your review/update here was very well done!
Dude I've been following you for quite a while now but I must say I'm so impressed with your content, there's not a second of this video where I would disagree with you, starting with the spors history just to have it in mind but not over insisting on it is very fair, pointing out both that the progression is impressive but that the raw numbers aren't that crazy according to his weight, etc... all you say is so well balanced and right, I don't see how anyone can disagree with you, even Twitter keyboard warriors
These are awesome Jesse, please keep updating this story, this guy is definitely a natural athlete =huge gains.
Ahaha, I was waiting for the response to come out. Gonna enjoy this one, cheers.
Great analysis
Great video, defo agree that the power is possible. 1.5 year ago I got my first “racing” bike and did a ftp test after 2 months of doing almost everything wrong and got to a 3.5 watt per kg ftp (245 watt). 2 months after that I was already at a 4.0 watt per kg ftp (285 watt), with just doing intervals all the time. Now that I’ve done my first “base” block I made a massive jump again, so with his approach and his talent/previous situation the power seems to be achievable, though I’m gonna be calling bs aswell, if he gets to a 385 watt ftp within the next months😂.
Just fyi if he did this on the stages sb20 smartbike, which I think he did. It tends to over read power data when riding out the saddle so maybe take this with a pinch of salt but nerverthelese big improvement.
Stages known for over reading hence why no pro team rides them. Check DC rainmaker review.
He did 320 normalised for 40 minutes in the race.
@@MrRobbo303 yep hence why I said it was still a big improvement
Great break down
I appreciate you calling out the trade off between chasing FTP gains and fast twitch muscle fibers. He’s a talented athlete and will be very successful with his current fitness if he can learn the bike handling and pack riding skills to smooth out his power during a race.
I’m hoping his next videos focus on racing well rather than continuing to chase FTP gains or w/kg improvements.
The short hair looks really good on you jesse, very professional and interesting intellectual vibe
Great video, serious talent. 8:52 video clock - I don’t understand how the power increases that much when the cadence doesn’t shift as much? Even with a gear switch pre sprint, wouldn’t you see the power/cadence drop to prep for the sprint?
Goals!! I would be very flattered that a whole video series was dedicated to explaining why I am strong AF lol
Fun to stumble on a year later. This is also a story of a high/elite level athlete retooling for a different sport. Not as clickbaity, but Ethan is really changing his body. Super fun series.
That part about the lower cadence makes sense to me. I’m naturally a sprinter and have a lot of fast twitch. Slow twitch has come difficult for me. This helps me to know that a shorter ftp may be less accurate for me
You ever tried a ramp test? I recently got 251w on mine, yet I can barely make it through 3x15 @ 220w (though I've spent barely any time at threshold recently) Seems to massively overread for "sprinter/punchier types"
@@tombarnes2652 Because I am so fast twitch dominant, I expect it to be very inaccurate for me
The trouble with using w/kg is as you've already hinted at. A heavier rider with a 330 watt FTP and a lighter rider with a 280 watt FTP will have the same w/kg. BUT, the heavier rider is far more powerful, so when up against that lighter rider they will smash it on a crit like the one he won. To the heavier rider with a 330 watt FTP, 280 watts is in the tempo zone so not very taxing at all. But that would be an all out effort for the lighter rider.
To me w/kg only comes into play on climbs.
It can come into play in tight 6-8 corner criteriums with a lot of accelerations. Heavy riders may have a more difficult time with a ton of acceleration.
Horses for courses.
I’m a 50-something guy who has been riding and training “self coached” for a while. Took a month off the bike in the middle of last year. Started working with a coach in October and tested my FTP at 274W. It’s now at 310W. Unfortunately, I’m a bit heavier than EJ so my W/kg is nothing special
Given that EJ is younger than me, coming off a lower base of training and probably just plain better than me - his improvement is definitely possible. As it turns out, he may not have been the best subject for NorCal’s couch to crit series because he is definitely an outlier and most people will not get his results.
You are special in your own category. I am almost 50, started 3 years ago, never had ftp higher than 220, and am a hard worker! Still, my improvements are so slow, that I can only sprint for a good 40 seconds for local koms but, anything that goes longer than 5 minutes at a fast aerobic pace, puts me in a hard position. Now you are at 310W, this is a massive number sorry.
the pattern of very low cadence suggests it was a deliberate strategy - i wonder if he had come across the idea from his own experimentation or if it is a known way to boost the 20min numbers for a rider with a lot of anaerobic ability. Would be interesting to see how he would go in a 60 min test, or with a ramp test with blood lactate measurements
Hi Jesse I follow you guys on youtube I am 79 years old weigh 78-80 kgs cycling background way back when been on zwift for years level 51 looking at doing a Zwift workout is there anything you can suggest to start that will keep everything working Thanks mate fan of your shoe Colin
Totally second this analysis, I had the chance to ride with EJ just beore this test, we both had ridden hard the day before, I had raced. I'm just below 4w/kg ftp, and put him on a hill after 1.5hrs z2, and would have to say he was really working to hold my wheel after ~5min. Short climb. I'm much more of a pure climber type, can barely hit 800-900 on a sprint. So have to agree with muscle type analysis. Very impressive still. I'm about that 70kg /280w ftp you mention.
Great follow up Jesse, thanks for making it.
Besides the '2x ftp' challenge, does he really need much more of an aerobic engine for this season?
If we call FTP the ticket to the party, he's already got an invite to Cat 4,3 and low 2's with 330+/- surely?
If he can add some quality vo2 efforts now, he has a pretty formidable race winning arsenal.
Agreed. He already has everything he needs to win most Cat 3 races or a minimum be on the podium.
He will get to cat3 and get a strategic wake up call. I saw him make many mistakes that I would have capitalized on in his cherry pie race win. Like the last corner before the sprint he let a gap open up, I always race to and sprint out of the last corner no matter the finishing length.
Will be interesting to see how he does in cat3, most cat 3's close to their 2 upgrade are closer to 4.5w/kg so if EJ can stay with the front group he will probably have a good shot at winning a sprint.
@@ryancraig999 Yeah I agree but I think by the time he is racing with the 3s he will have fixed most strategic mistakes. For crits that are flat its my opinion that absolute raw watts are more important, coupled with repeatability at high watt sprints which he has both. He is a big guy though so easy to draft behind and he doesn't get as good for a draft so there is that. I'm 2.5 years in and have just a 4.1w/kg FTP but I'm very anerobic with repeatability and a big sprint and its enough to win me a lot of A group Crits and a State Championship. 80kg, 5'8' so short with 800w for 1min/1500 for 5sec. Goal is 4.5w/kg one day... I'm more then my weakish FTP.
Ethan is defiantly not a guy coming off the couch. I'm happy for his gains and very impressive results. But, I doubt any person coming off the couch will have a starting ftp of 260. I would love to see them use an actual beginner and see the results.
He says his ftp was 190 from his first FTP test on one of the Norcal cycling videos, I believe this was before he did the 6 month block of z2 training.
@@Spacewolf5 Ahh ok. Thanks
@@Spacewolf5 What I'm starting to find is that this serie is extremely distorded and unclear.
1) We find out he was doing moutain bike in his teens : What is mountainbiking ? It's the first sport every young man currently in pro stage has made. It means basically he could have had already a 250-300watt ftp at 15-16 yo.
2)He was then doing baseball so a lot of sprints/strenght workouts which means he trained a lot his anaerobic capacity just like biking. Given the photos he was doing it at a fairly good level.
3)Then maybe he takes 2-3 years off and start gaining weight. From that point it's very very easy to get only 190w at an FTP test if you're untrained. Even a professional cyclist without only a few months of training can lose 50w on a 20mn test.
- I'm now at 295-305w FTP personnaly but I KNOW for sure that every time I drop off the bike/exercise for 1-2 months my first FTP test is 220-230 max. It's an extremely difficult test so coming untrained is basically suicide. After 4 weeks I am at 250 again and after 3-4 months I'm back at 280-290w. In this way I could do the same : How to get from 220w to 290w in 4 months ? I could show that very easily and it could be very appealing.
4) It's very suspect that he starts the serie with 3-4h rides 5 days a week even "untrained". I have some good friends they are athletics but they never rode bike for long rides and after a 4h ride they need 1week to recover. So it confirms point 1)
5) Same point on sprint power he's doing 1500w and in my case I'm doing exactly the same numbers because I've made a lot of strenght/boxing trainings when I was younger. So the argument "I'm gifted because I'm doing 1500w without sprint work" In this case I'm in the exact same situation even if I'm smaller and lighter than him. I'm a quite ordinary guy so I'd say he trained his sprint power but not on the bike that's all.
To conclude I think he made an extremely well done recovery from his younger-self athlete and I think he's very smart, organized, and well trained. He was basically out of shape and went back to his level when he was younger 4w/kg lvl. Also considering the FTP test at low cadence and unsaddled is technicaly wrong. The problem here is internet basically : Distorded reality.
I'm in a triathlon club and I saw some guys running 3h30 marathons and now running 2h50 for their first time without being elite younger. It took them years (5 minimum) their body changed, they trained, they plateau'd some years, then had a breaktrough, then kept pushing it trough the years. It takes time for your body to adapt and reshape. Not a question of genetics. Internet keep pushing us "outliers" and it makes us in despair and wanting to stop the plateau and buy a training course that's the lesson I learned with all these videos. That's how coaches earn their money.
@@user-ur5vw1gi4v Kind of that... I am not supertalented, I am not overweight. But did nothing for last let's say 6-8 months, having very bad habits and all. But i was doing some bike before, not structured training. Than I got zwift, my first FTP test was very underwhelming, after a month of riding and structure, it raised by 30%
Not sure if FTP Test or low K3 training :-D
all kudos to Ethan!
Very good analysis Jesse. When I started training more seriously I went from an FTP of 280 to 320 quite quickly but marginal gains then became more difficult to make. I got to 340 and started to plateau over a couple of years. My gains since have been through dedicated, persistent high Z2 training - ie converting muscle into Type I just as you say. Weight dropped from c85kg initially to currently around 75kg. Just on the way the FTP test was done, I think putting in grinding 40-50 rpm efforts is really gaming the test. The idea is that you have a 20min watt number which when multiplied by 95% approximates the watts you can sustain over 40-60 minutes. If your 20 min number is inflated by a massive one-off glycolytic effort then the 95% rule will overestimate what you can achieve over 40-60 mins. That is why some FTP tests (eg Zwift’s 20 min test) give you a 5 min above FTP effort 10 mins before your test, to try to take away a chunk of the glycolytic benefit if you have a lot of Type II muscle. The 20 mins watts in genuine as you say, but it won’t extrapolate to 40-60 mins unless you take a smaller % of it than 95%.
He's basically hidden his power numbers for months. But the 'race' against his mate up those hills a couple of weeks ago it was shown briefly. The numbers were nowhere close to someone with a 250-260W FTP which he was claiming at the time. Low 300s minimum. It's sandbagging. Unless he can only sustain very short efforts, and has no endurance ... which would make no sense given the training volume and distance he's been able to do.
Hi Jesse, I seem to be in a similar situation, I'm 84kg estimated FTP of 307w but that is probably not accurate as I've never done a FTP test. I have a very similar cycling background although more competition based and structured training with regards to strength and power. (I raced BMX at an elite level for 10 years on and off) I'm curious to know what sort of Wattage could be produced without now getting back in the gym. I can produce 1585w currently and was able to do 690w for 1 minute on a slow cadence hill climb recently while training. With some sprint work on the bike would 1800w be achievable?
Genuinely thought I was losing my mind for about 20 minutes trying to find that summarized sauce power view in Strava. Finally realized that it's a browser extension 😂
To be honest, his numbers are what I have been trying to achieve for like like five years… sigh
Same here, keep at it haha
Does that mean you'll purchase their training program to get help with you goal?
Yea its pretty discouraging, isn't it? lol
Or inspiring.
I be commenting for the algorithm, pce king
Being a heavy rider myself, I can attest to the fact that these large numbers don't necessarily translate to results. Im in a similar situation to him when he started, grinding it out every day to lose weight first and then focus on training. my max power is 1648w, Ive got an ftp of around 310. But I am 110kg sooo i hang with the beginners most of the time.
Cadence is an interesting thing. On zwift for instance on flat courses I'm usually comfortable 90-100rpm or so. However, when I do one of the climbs on zwift where I run out of gears, I'm happy enough at lower cadences (60s, 70s) and usually produce my best power numbers. It feels wrong to me to pedal at those low cadences on flat terrain.
Jesse good vid but his gain of the 20min/ftp 0.95 = 25% improvment ! looks too much for that period of time but how knows....
He wasn't just a baseball player he was a pitcher that focuses on core and lower body extensively for power when throwing
If you were his coach, would you even advise him to go after that kind of FTP? If I understand you correctly, there are tradeoffs to be made... could someone who is a "fast-twitch monster" be better off focusing on something else? I guess that even sprint specialists need pretty high FTP to even get to the sprint but at what point does trying to raise your FTP became counterproductive? Is there such a point? And what about track sprinters? Participating in a track sprint race would certainly make for an interesting TH-cam video.
Did exactly the same, started by riding for fun for almost a whole year and then jumped into structured training. Went from 220- to 300 Watts in a year at 70 kg. But Holy guacomoly, his sprints are crazy, even at 83 kg. Can't wait for the final update. Maybe some insight into his training and lifestyle changes would be interesting if the actually achieves the 384 Watt goal.
3 months later when he’s 400w ftp and cat 1 monster, people will start to call doping
and people are right: to keep up with national he will have to use some sort of nitro... being natty wont do in our world today.
Jesse , is power number in Strava are ligit? It is not possible to pair power meter in Strava ?
Or Strava gets power number from third party apps ( trainingpeak) ?
Hi @Enot Strava pulls the power number from the fit file generated from your cycling computer which is synced with a powermeter hope this answers your question!
@@Pauleuh in my case it won't take power numbers from fit file , Strava lowers power numbers by 5-15 watts
He discovered the power adjustment percentage in the power meter settings
To me it doesn't look like that, the power data from the races looks spot on. The trainer data is always hard to judge though because there's nothing to compare it against, just virtual speed from Zwift
I mean, he could adjust any power he wants (theoretically) but the race results will define where he is as athlete.
1. Assuming BMX is a lot of sprint power so not surprised that comes naturally to him(Still, 1500w wow!).
2. Could his first FTP test have been a poor representation of his true strength? Might have been good to see one a week or two after some threshold workouts.
3. My best 20 min power (in a race) includes a lot of 50 rpm out-of-the-saddle riding. I don't consider that to be my true FTP because my RPE is lower standing than seated. I also don't consider myself to be fast-twitch (max sprint is 900w) so interested to hear more about the correlation between grinding and fast-twitch fibres.
4. In my tests, standing @50rpm is on avg 1.6km/hr slower than seated. For me, a practical ftp test has to be seated (probably doesn't matter for crits but makes a big difference on long climbs.
Yep you have a point, there are 20m max tests for tracking fitness improvements, in which case you just do whatever the hell you need to do to get the most watts out as possible. Seated, standing, 40 RPM, 120 RPM, doesn't matter, you're still having to produce the power. But if you're someone who races, or does time trials, there is a specificity component where you may want to constrain your testing to make it a closer replication of the demands of your events. So if you race flat crits all year, you may do FTP tests outside only on a flat stretch of road, no hills. If TT's are you goal, you may do your entire 20m test seated, don't allow yourself to stand.
As a pure fitness test, none of that matters though. Watts are still watts at the end of the day, no matter how you produce them, if you are wanting to measure pure physiological output.
I think it's funny that a lot of cyclists are questioning their place in this hobby after EJ's results, lol.
Pro tip: You can get insane FTP gains on social media by lengthening crank arm on your garmin 😁
BMX Roots with the sprints
I was really stunned at how he seemed to only do endurance type training… very little sprint work, and seemed like he didn’t get much training on how to race (I don’t know anything about racing).
He’s talented and a diamond in the rough. He could be way better with more training and serious coaching
I’m also predominantly fast twitch and my coach always wanted me to do FTP tests seated and high cadence for that reason. I guess she was wanting to see the FTP of just my slow twitch to get a better estimate of my pre-LT zone?
Yep doing that would make the results from the 20m test a better estimate of the power you could actually do for an hour
350 watts with 50 cadence? A man after my own heart!
how long until his young knees start to feel the need of a break....
Im 32 years old, 70kg, southeast asian. Started cycling 3 years ago during pandemic. Literally no, as in ZERO sports background, sedentary my whole life(video games, desk job) bec I had a lot of respiratory and thyroid issues when I was little. I did a low volume training plan(Dylan Johnson 6hrs/week) for a while. Started at 180w FTP, peaked at 262w, now hovering around 220ish due to busy work load. All FTP test are 1hr test. My question is, is it possible for me to reach the 300w range?
carry on with your training. Another thing is, for beginners big gains will come faster then it slows down a bit. Are you a slim type of person or a bulky sprinter type? because this has also an impact partially on your ftp gains.
That’s over 4 w/kg. It would likely take multiple years of seriously dedicated training to get there.
What do you want to do with your fitness?
@@clrbrk9108 That's absolutely not true. I started cycling 3 years ago after doing no cardio for a very long time. After a year and a half I got up to 300 watt FTP, and I'm 50. This guy is only early 30s, he'll easily do it within that time if he puts the hours in consistently with the right proportion of intensity variation.
@@Markhypnosis1 ok fair enough but, how big you are? How heavy you are? Injuries history... beginner big gains... 300 ftp is just a tiny part of someone s story.
@@Northwindbreeze I'm 6ft, 86kg. Only did cardio in my teens, but not for long. Been strength training religiously for 15 years. I know it's only part of the story, but it's a very good indicator of someone's aerobic fitness. If someone has an ftp of 100, it's safe to say they are very unfit. My point is that 300 watts ftp isn't that hard to achieve with consistency and the right plan.
Out of the saddle on FTP test?
Cool video, shouldn’t you remain seated for an FTP test on the trainer?
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
@@nerocoaching shit! That’s good to know. Thanks for the feed back man. Keep up the great videos!
The kid did great!
Great review. I’m curious as to if setting an FTP that high is actually a bad thing since he had to use such low cadence and out of the saddle efforts. In training for crits it seems like riders use a higher cadence and seated most the time (since 50rpm standing is useless in most crits) and therefore if he is basing say over/Unders off of say 105-110%/ 90-95% he might have to stand or just hold very low cadence and therefore not work the aerobic system and type 1 fibers properly. I don’t know, I’m no coach, just curious as I too and a high anaerobic rider that started cycling a couple years ago and have struggled with increased threshold power/time but have good repeatability and a sprint.
The way he did the test was a pure physiological test, whatever needs to be done to produce the most watts. But you are right, that power isn't going to translate well to crits or even flat TT's on the road.To be fair to EJ, he never said the "FTP" tests were designed to translate to his racing. They were a seperate goal, to get as fit as possible (i.e. produce the most raw watts).
@@nerocoaching The folks at trainerroad seem to think that FTP tests should be done seated or the results are thrown off. I believe they are considering the numbers from the point of view of setting your workout zones, rather than as a performance benchmark, however. It's funny because Jeff from norcal stands during his FTP tests also and was called out for it a bit in one of their videos where they had a group all testing their FTP on trainerroad at the same time.
Strange, seems to be a constraint to the test they are adding in to get the FTP results more "accurate", because they know 95% of peak 20m, or a ramp test, is not always accurate.
The problem is saying to just sit down the entire time doesn't make the test fair to everyone. Personally I would naturally sit down the entire time anyway, other riders may naturally spend half the time standing, so you're just introducing more inaccuracy into the results. And then for the rider that prefers to stand more you're not even getting a true representation of their current 20m best power, which is part of the whole point of doing the test.
I'd say do the best 20m you can, so at least you've got that value accurate, but just be cautious using 95% of that as FTP. May need to take a couple of percent off based on your own analysis of what is a more realistic actual FTP.
Also one other issue I have with it, just because a rider is standing doesn't necessarily mean their an anaerobic powerhouse, so standing isn't skewing their results. I know plenty of predominately slow twitch riders, who struggle to crack 800w, that just spend time riding out of the saddle for comfort reasons, and because they have built some good aerobic efficiency in that position. So saying to someone in that situation that they can't stand up will massively punish their 20m power and won't lead to any more accurate FTP estimation. The idea of forcing riders to sit so they "can't use their anaerobic power" doesn't make physiological sense in many cases
@@nerocoaching I'm not sure what their answer would be. But I think they're trying to figure out lactate threshold so that target zones will train the expected energy systems. If you find a way to 'game' the test for a better result that also puts you over the lactate threshold, then you've screwed up the test from their POV. -Maybe. :)
Correct if I'am wrong but I thought FPT test were suppose to seated?
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
Fair play to the guy he has smashed it. I am surprised of your view on the test. The test seems to be a 20m effort and not within a protocol. The test should be a test of your aerobic system whilst he seems to be overpowering the test by being out of the saddle. The data you showed didn’t have the vo2 block prior to the 20m test section so the 95% calculation isn’t valid. Furthermore Like any test you try to control all variables whilst the out of the saddle low cadence section will provide variability with past and any future efforts. Interesting to see the improvements but I can’t say I’d say all the data is comparable.
I thought you were not meant to get out of the saddle for a ftp test. Whether its on zwift or trainerroad they all say to stay seated.
That’s what I thought as well
The max watts aren't that impressive to me as someone who started off cycling with big sprints like that. What's insanely impressive to me is that hes actually able to use it in a race. I would have definitely been dropped from all of those corner surges he was doing and still being able to dump 1500 at the end of the fit race seems like he wasn't really pushing it at all. Seems like he's really efficient at clearing lactate.
Damn he is a crit monster compared to my 180w FTP 😂
Shouldn't one sit the whole ftp test to get more correct watts?
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
@@nerocoaching Hello. Thank you for answering. When you take the ftp test on zwift, they say that you have to sit all the way through. But then I will both sit and stand the next time I take the ftp test 😀
Maybe he has one of those Shimano Power Meters (R9200P) that teams are complaining about saying It’s horribly inaccurate@?
I think he's running a Stages power meter, single sided, which won't have those issues. I think the Shimano power meters tend to under-report as well
If he played baseball at a decent level- the training is freaking hard. Sprinting and lots of endurance stuff for mental toughness.
Juiced
Comment made 4 mins in
if not yet, it will come
My FTP is at least 20w lower on the trainer than my outside, and i have tested quite a bit......i'm not sure about the differences in cadence on the trainer though??? How the F*&K do you do 40rpm's on the trainer?????? Seems odd to me
👌It’s fun to watch a coach with your experience be blown away by an amateur athlete’s numbers.
I'm 56 ftp 200 trying to get to 250 when 60 yrs been zwifting regularly last 15 months so probably had initial surge any comments
Hate being that guy but man...the numbers are tough to believe for a guy who's not really being doing cycling "training" very long. A lot of instances of very rare, fast twitch freak, genetically gifted type of stuff. Maybe he truly is a freak but this being attached to a program for sale and seeming to good to be true has me suspicious
I though you have to stay seated for the FTP test, you say he gets out of the saddle 😮
That’s what I was going to say
If he's a high twitch dominant athlete, wouldn't that suggest that his ftp is lower than 95% of 20min?
Hey Jesse, I’m don’t want to say anything bad about EJ, AND I’m not saying he did anything on purpose, BUT!!! can’t a beginner learn how to take the FTP test to improve their score without gaining any fitness? So his beginning FTP test might have been a little low??
I always find it interesting when you ride with a guy with lots of fast twitch. It is quite rare as most people are much of a muchness. Often the guy is just this normal average looking non-descript guy but when he puts down the power its like wholly sh!t! Where did that come from?!
Lol! They live amongst us like aliens
@@nerocoaching Exactly! lol
Hint: don't hit the table while recording.
If he has that all sports background then I can’t see anything magic happening. Just a good training approach. 2 years ago I started structure with 3,2 wkg, 3 months of sweet spot plan (which I’m not really a fan right now) and I was 3,9 wkg. I can also put about 1,5 kW with 70 kg but I did some 100m sprint competitions in my early school years so that makes it possible. They just shouldn’t fool people that pure couch potato will get that all crazy gains when he just buy a plan.
you right. What people did before counts 100%. What is your body type-wise? type 2 fibers mostly aka sprinter? I am interested to know since you mention you are not a fan right now of SS.
Yea, I think I’m definitely type 2 fiber guy. Pretty big quads. Low fat. Was struggling with long efforts in my youth - 1km run was a big no no, just felt like a couch potato 😆 But then I just could smoke any “athletic” guy on a short sprint. Chasing my buddies that were sprinting on bike, I could catch them by a foot 😂 But It was at least 15 years ago. Right now I’m almost 29 (178cm, 70kg) and FINALLY found out how that endurance base is important and started working on my slow twitch fibers after a few months break from a bike. Lots of zone 2. More time on a bike comparing to that funny 3-4 hours per week that I did hammering that SS plan. 2 months in on polarized plan and I can already notice big improvements in my resting HR, HR to power, feeling on a bike that I didn’t when was on a sweet spot plan some time ago.
Exactlty this. They make so much money with the "I've never done any sport and now I'm a pro - Buy my course"
Ask Frodeno to stop training for 2 years, ask him to gain 10kg then do a video serie of him "How I went from 200w FTP and 2w/kg to 450FTP and 6w/kg in 6 months"
Internet is almost dangerous at this point.
I don't see the point in doing an FTP test if you aren't riding your bike like you would outdoors. The extra watts you may get from grinding is negated by aero drag being created by riding out of the saddle for so long.
Ultimate sleeper build lol
In every test I have done ALWAYS SEATED and if the athlete cannot maintain above 70rpm the test is over ! Limitations must apply 40 cadence seated is way too low and dangerous for the knees! Also, seated even indoors can produce more power even with the bodyweight !
The question now becomes if he should chase his FTP or focus on his sprint ability.
Exactly, if he can get to a fitness level to do 350w for an hour, on a flat road, at a more realistic cadence (75+ RPM), he will be lethal in races with that sprint
95% of 20 minutes is after a max 5m effort. With a strong anaerobic athlete, more likely to be 87-92% of 20m.
Yep it would be unlikely he can actually do 334w for an hour on the road right now, looking at his physiology and how he completed the 20m test. Maybe in another month of training
Something’s fishy about his progress so quick.. hmm
Check out average rob video with remco when he cracked out 2000w with no training
I highly doubt that was legit ….
haha yes I watched that video, now I think we can all agree that power meter is totally cooked. No way that guy was cracking 2k watts
FTP 315 max considering 95% is with a 5min all out before and with a vlamax around 0,45 and his is probably 0,7. But still impresdive
Im not saying it's disingenuous because I'm sure they were upfront about his athletic background, but I'd like to see how well couch to crit works on an obese person
🔬Usada
Anyone that played college sports is an athlete, different disciple but it’s a very small percentage of folks that can play anything in college.
Out of the saddle five times in an FTP test? That is not a test 😂
I thought ftp tests are supposed to be taken seated
Nope, I don't see a reason to force to be seated the entire time. Some may chose to stay seated if they are most efficient in that position, but in a 20m test most will have some mix of seated and standing. Which is the point of a 20m max test, do to the most watts possible, regardless of position. If testing for a TT or something more specific, then possibly you may include a position requirement.
@@nerocoaching ok I was under the impression for the most accurate and consistent reading those tests are best done seated on a trainer. It's definitely easier to get more power out going up a hill at slow speeds while standing. So if a person got efficient out of the saddle it could skew reading making it harder to track progress. But yes generally get as much power out in a reasonable position but most ppl take the ftp test upright when that's not how they race.
Hey the guy might put in big weeks and be genetically gifted Shit he's got my ftp. Of course I weigh 60kgs??but still stat is awesome gainz.
I thought FTP tests are supposed to be seated tests at constant power, not average power during an effort alternating between lower power seated spinning and high-power surges while standing. I’ve only done ramp tests on zwift. It says stay seated, and there are no breaks in the power to recover the slightest bit. I suspect i would get a higher ftp estimate if i could vary effort level and stand. I may give it a try and see. I’m not sure it would be the best # to set training levels off of though.
This is not possible, the starting point of 260W is not realistic
He did low intensity training before starting training with power.
Low Power ftp Test for a result of 190 😹
Never heard of calculating FTP from an effort with standing riding. Every legit FTP test makes sure to inform us NOT to stand up
3:30 there is no correlation between low cadence grind out of saddle and fast-twitch musclefibers. It's more to do with heavier bodyweight and upper body strength. I'd even add running background because riding out of saddle enables one to use wholly different ROM for working muscles, close to running posture.
I'm not particularily explosive, infact i'm below average. I can push out 1000 watts for 5 seconds, but with power profiling it's my worst aspect as cyclist. Same goes with explosive movements vs slow strength movements, i'm strong but not explosive. But i do have high amount of muscle mass and balanced strength capabilities all thru out my body so i can remain upright and hold strong position. And i like to run, so my core is good.
And I can grind 20-30watts more on FTP test from standing position. At that point it becomes more about general aerobic capabilities than simply having legs. As i race only indoors i plan to use that as my secret weapon.
150 to 300 is easy. 300 to 400 on the other hand..
He was hiding his power numbers for a reason... His FTP was never 190 w, more like 290 w one year ago. If he really did gain that much power he would have been considered one of a kind, not even Pogacar or Vingegaard dont have that good of a training response. Everything for yt views, sadly.
I'll be honest This vlog of EJ's was actually making me angry. I've been doing structured cycling training for 5+ years and have been a mid distance swimmer my entire childhood, for some reason seeing him achieve these gains was frustrating me. The way you broke it down helped alleviate those jealous feelings LOL. I'm hovering around 4.6W/kg with a goal to finally get to 5 this season and it's been kind of a struggle so far. I guess I didn't realize he was 80+kg and only sitting at 4W/Kg, which I think he will likely plateau around 4.5W/Kg. Another thing he has to worry about with all those new found watts is joint health and injuries, we'll see if he can sustain this type of training volume.
But I'm beyond impressed with his max power numbers, actually envious haha. I considered myself somewhat of a sprint specialist but Im starting to reconsider that as I seem to be kind of an Rouleur than a Sprinteur.
Thanks for reviewing EJ's vlog it was cool to get another coaches perspective as I have a Master of Exercise Science and am super interested in those breakdowns 👌
He looked well muscled in your original vid even with the fat. He was never a couch potato
💉💉