thats all well and good. but the issue is that he doesnt change AT ALL. hes not hurt, hes not tired, hes not in distress. the man isnt even angry. hes exactly the same as always. hes like some kind of robot whose only setting is sarcastic cool guy
Well people deal with stress, grief, and trauma very differently. For all we know Sonic could be just putting up an act for most of the game. Also shouldn't Infinite be the Griffith equivalent? After all he used to lead a mercenary group, gave them up for higher goals, lost to a superior fighter, forsake everyone in order to obtain godlike otherwordly power due to his own weakness, and got a new identity that also came with a new mask/helmet. Now we just need a Guts to match him. Also would t
if they really wanted to convey that in the story then they should have put in a few moments of weakness where the event actually does seem to affect him.
CaptainDemo779 Ageeed. Fuck, I thought Humpty-Dumpty was getting touchy-feely with Paige on stream before I realized that was Pat. I do not need to be reminded of this again.
Levels are too short The game feels like its on autopilot Classic Sonic has no reason to be here Weak story Boring levels It's mediocrity in its purest form.
Arby W. so, what you're saying is, the game is disguising itself in the clothing of more popular games in the series? i thought '06 was rock bottom, but someone keeps throwing them shovels.
I'll agree with Liam, you can get some enjoyment out of trying to speedrun the levels. The only thing that's really actually fun to me is using the Drill Wispon to absolutely break some levels.
Of all the times Pat's Crazy Talk could've kicked in, why in the hell did it decide not to do anything when Pat first declared the game would be a piece of crap?
Get rid of the boost formula. Give me the Spindash Back from Adventure 1. Take the game off rails and make it a 3D platformer again. Leave 2D sonic out of the equation. Leave him to the Mania team. Sonic should have been gone longer or when released, too damaged to be used until alittle later when he recovered from torture. Also the "rookie" shouldn't have saved Sonic, it should have been Classic Sonic to do it instead if he's so involved. Takes a Sonic to save a Sonic which would give them an excuse of not being able to save Sonic all this time. Avatar levels and Modern Sonic levels are way too similar. Classic Sonic controls like SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT. Like so wonky it's ridiculous.
You don't have to like adventure. Doesn't mean there wasn't some good things you can take from it. Atleast it was actually a game and wasn't boost to win on rails.
Adventure formula was decent when it came out but AWFULLLLL now Going back to the adventure formula will kill the franchise Wed end up with another 06 incident
Dark Sonic stories are so weird to me. Not the fan stuff, that has a long history of being a thing, the fact the actual Sonic Team trying it again. Sega's never gonna let 'em tell a genuinely grim story with those characters, so why bother trying to go halfway?
Gray i don't think it's about sega letting them, i think it's that they genuinely can't tell an adult story with the characters they've created. the storybook series was a chance to do so, and they kinda squandered it.
That’s why we have the comics. Admittedly the Archie ones weren’t seminal to begun with, but once Penders took a hike and all his garbage characters were out of the picture, they struck a nice balance between goofy fun shit and sociopolitical world building stuff in a way that the games never really bothered to do. The old Fleetway (British) Sonic comics were dark as fuck, too. Especially the shit with Super Sonic.
TieDef yeah i really miss smug child playing devils advocate for crap that absolutely should not be defended and getting super annoyed and defensive every time he's called out...sure miss that
Definitely not enough being contrary for being contrary's sake or defending obvious garbage just so they can feel like they're sticking it to others. Truly, the people's hero.
While Liam's Devils advocate nature could get tiresome, there no balance here, for situations like this. forces is a bad game, but Matt and Pat are known to dislike 3D Sonic games from the get go (including Generations, since it makes Matt sick and Pat thinks the jumping is wrong), so hearing them try to convey to Woolie why the game is bad can be SLIGHTLY annoying because hey already had that bias. Let's say there's a bad Superman comic, a comic even Superman fans dislike. Now....have Pat, a man who hates Superman already, explain why it's a bad comic. It's just like that. So a person like Liam, who also thinks it's not a good game, is able to give a better analysis of the game. But the correct answer is having neither of those three tell Woolie. Either Woolie needs to play it himself (not Matt) OR someone outside needs to tell him.
After the disappointment caused by Forces, it's probably best that Sonic Team and Sega abandon the boost formula for now and do a new Adventure game. If they update the Adventure formula, fix its flaws, and learn from past mistakes, then things could have a chance at turning around for the better. Also, Sonic Team shouldn't be split into two teams. It's ridiculous Forces only had 3 level designers.
Diego Medina please no. the boost formula is fine, when done correctly. boost should be a reward for combos and badnik bounce chains, not something you just get from a capsule, and the stages should be heavy on the themes. or, make every game play like rush, the inventor of the boost formula, where your goal is to attempt to platform while never releasing the right trigger.
Why do people keep on pinning this on the boost formula!? For crying out loud the problem with the game is that it's levels, while fun, are not dynamic enough. Instead of hiring complete amateurs to make Sonic levels, like what they did with Forces, they need to get the same people who created levels for Sonic Rush, Generations and Unleashed.
Samir Malik I like the boost formula and agree the issues lie elsewhere, but I feel from a marketing standpoint they'd be better off for their next major game going back to an older formula that many people have nostalgia for. Kinda like Nintendo with Mario Oddysey going back to the long-untouched 64 formula.
Bucky McGhillygully if they do that it will be labelled as nostalgia pandering yet again. Because that's exactly what Sonic Team has been doing since Sonic 4. And it's tiresome at this point. Not to mention Sonic Adventure feels of vastly inferior to the Boost games. The adventure games suffer from the same problems that Classics do, taking speeding spectacle out of your hands rather than making you responsible for it. That's what a great boost game does.
Comparing Unleashed or Generations' implementation of the Boost style gameplay to that of Forces is dishonest. Unleashed and Generations, while being fairly linear (especially the former) densely pack their levels with platforming or reaction challenges, different setpieces, and dynamic environments. Forces is extremely bland with copy-pasted enemy positions, barely any memorable mechanics or setpieces, and a MUCH higher level of automation than Unleashed Gens or Colors. I was watching speedrunner mieDax's stream where he played GHZ in Generations after playing Sunset Heights in Forces. Both levels lasted 1:50 minutes roughly, but Generations FELT so much longer and more entertaining to watch because there was a lot more stuff him to interact with or react to. tl;dr, I don't think it's correct to conflate all the boost games prior with Forces because Forces isn't designed nearly as well.
I didn't say there weren't any, just a severe lack of them. Operation Big Wave in Metropolis is a set piece I do remember, as is the whole event of Null Space. But a lot of the game feels like it's on autopilot.
dont speak so loud brother, lest the mob burn you at the stake. there is a place for such speak, but not here.(shows hand sign shaped like a hedgehog.)
I enjoyed Sonic Forces, but I will not defend it. Even though I liked the game overall (being that Sonic Boom was the last 3D Sonic game we got and it was shittier than all hell), I did have so many complaints about the game and these guys voiced what I thought was wrong with most of it (I disagree on the OC maker part being bad because that was actually kind of enjoyable and the Space Port level was actually pretty cool but of course extremely short). I was more pissed off with the fact that Classic had no point in being in the game, that the story (and also Infinite) was so poorly written for a game supposedly in development for a super long time, and that Eggman was once again the final boss.
Sure, it's nothing brand spankin new but it's a pretty decent game. The mechanics are good and the storyline where egg man WINS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND ACTUALLY INNOVATIVE. I'm surprised no ones mentioned that.
I used to defend this game to death when it first came out, and thought it was the first good modern sonic game since Generations. I never thought that just a few hours after I beat the game, I would think that this game is honestly worse than sonic '06. I don't think anyone will really agree with me, but I'm being serious. I really do think that Sonic Forces is worse than Sonic '06, even after how much I used to defend it.
06 has Forces beat by just raw content alone despite it's failure to fulfill it's ambitions. I'd rather play a game that tries and fails than one that doesn't try at all.
The thing about Unleashed, and why it's still my favourite, is that it was _fast._ To this day it's the fastest 3d sonic game. Every other game after was slowed down due to it being to fast. And because it was the first "boost" game, they went all out with the level design, beautiful. _Generation_ is slow, bad story, fan-service-y, etc...I can see why Pat doesn't like it.
I think at this point the boost has over-stayed it's welcome...It worked best in the _Sonic Rush_ series and it's implemented... _well_ enough in 3D but... Sega needs to take a page out of Nintendo's book and study the adventure style game play and try and make an updated version of that. I mean, some say Mario Odyssey is Mario 64 but re-imagined, because Nintendo knows what worked and what didn't
So I guess _Generations_ is as good as it gets, huh? Well... Maybe down the line we'll get a boost-hybrid game that brings the blue blur back to some fun games with good controls. (crossing fingers for _Shenmue_ style QTE's, though)
the boost formula is fine, it's just that colors started the trend of using it as a powerup you have to be gifted, which ruined it. build the game around absurd speed and quick reactions, give more boost for keeping a combo going and drop the QTE's, and i think you'd have a solid set of mechanics on your hands. sonic's supposed to be fast, not on rails.
Hmm...I'm all for that actually. Like Unleashed speed, Generations _stability..._ The little side step moment in Rooftop Run, Spagonia was so satisfying when I got it down right. That's _fun_ to me. I still want QTE's, but i want them completely differently. In _Shenmue_ there's no slow down for QTE, but at the same time you don't "die" by failing one (failing _a bunch_ is a different story). But if it's trouble mixing sonic speed and QTE it probably would be best to get rid of 'em.
Hasan Abdul-Jabbaar the reason i said to remove QTE's is because sonic + QTE has always equalled an annoying or pathetic section. if there's a way to make them work, i'm all for it, but i don't trust anyone to be able to do it without putting some blood on an alter and praying to a dark god for help.
Isn’t it designed to be easier, i.e. more accessible for modern audiences where some of the old games were just batshit insanely difficult? Yeah, that’s right, Labyrinth Zone. I’m looking at you, you fucking bitch. You and your friend Flying Battery. Fuck you both.
I miss Liam. He was the voice of reason for fans like Sonic fans... but even then, this game AIN'T well that super great. I mean the gameplay is BETTER than 06 like hundred times over... but this doesn't change anything. Mania was a success... but compare to this... Sonic Forces SHOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD-GOOD. Just unbelievable good... and it went down to half.
Being better than 06 is not really a good defense these days. 06 was 10 years ago, we have gotten better and worse games than 06 in these past 10 years... and Forces i'll say its one of the worse.
Diego Medina disagree. I keep saying this again and again but forces is a game that is good. But fails to be great. I'm certainly not getting a Rules of Nature moment, as much as I wanted one from this game.
I agree. The problem is that they lied about the tone and didnt have the balls to follow through on their statements. -Eggman takes over the world .....um where? Everyone SAYS he did, there are a few cutscenes of scared animals but never is it shown that "No Eggman has won, we lost, this is really really bad" Instead they bailed out in favor of (as Liam-senpai puts it) "Viva La Revolution" to which I agree. -Sonic is dead Then not even 5 minutes later -SONIC ISNT DEAD ...okay but you still lie- -Sonic had been tortured for 6 WHOLE months Hmm okay okay I like that -1 level later Sonic mega okay, making wise cracks and somehow even stronger than when he first lost while he has been sitting on his ass being "Tortured" just so eggman can get that James Bond villian moment that never works......No fuck that, fuck all O' dat. -"Tails is lost to us" OH...Punished Tails? -Cuts to tails being just..sad, not broken or crazy...just....sad....6 months and all we get is sad -Immediately fixes Tails' saddness by giving him 2D sonic to play detective with (Which is his only real story role) -Chaos is a villian! Ohhhhhh! Chaos is never fought, he amounts to a jobber character. Really? -Shadow is playable Hey now, here we go -Shadow Music from his game OH BOY I LIKED THAT -Shadow is DLC .....oh....o..okay. -Had 4 DLC levels ....i shouldve known better Mania really set the ball high. Christian Whitehead killed it because he knows his craft and we love him for it and he gave us hope. Forces drops the ball so hard and we caved to despair. Sonic is IRL Danganronpa, where only Zetsubo awaits us.
Yeah matt has strange opinions on sonic games at times. Like he once said "I miss the half pipe from Sonic 2 special stages" & thats been in everything for a while & people were sick of it
Sonic Forces needed at least another year of development to tweak the mechanics and like 3 more level designers. Preferably ones with experience. Coming out the same year as Mania was a mistake. And Classic should've been dropped if Mania was coming out
I don't get why people hate it so much. Sure it's not perfect but it's definitely not terrible to play. If someone would please enlighten me I'd love to hear you out. Just please come at me with legitimate reasons and arguments, I'd love to have a healthy debate and/or conversation, not a pissing contest
Liam's play through presents a pretty fair response, if you want to know why people aren't reacting well. Anyone who didn't like 3d sonic before won't find anything new with the game. And unfinished parts/strange choices like adding classic sonic sections/ the null dimension being nothing for no reason disappointed fans. I'm sure people can like it, but in the context of sonic mania and mario having come out recently it doesn't really do much aside from the character creation. Which again won't be to everyone's taste.
Because the game is almost insultingly easy, the overall tone of the story is all over the place, the dialogue is unbearable, and the whole selling point of the game which was "make your own Sonic fursona and go on adventures with your favorite characters" kind of falls flat with how inconsequential your OC is.
JoJones yeah I agree the story was extremely overhyped, and it falls flat. I have a feeling that the reason it's so short is they did some scrunching to get it out by the set release date.
This has been an exceptional year for platformers and it's really hard to recommend this to anyone who isn't a superfan when A Hat in Time, Odyssey, Crash Bandicoot, Cuphead and even Mania exist. Then you add really strange contrasting story elements that don't make up their mind on their tone like Pat said, and there is no real reason why should someone go out of their way to pick this up. It's getting beat up because Mania is a better realized game on the same IP, released a couple months before it came out. And honestly, no one owes Forces anything, there's no point in defending or apologizing for mediocrity.
The fact that the games are connected does not justify comparing them. They may be connected, but they are completely different style of games from each other.
Sonic forces was one of the slowest sonic games to date It doesnt play like unleashed or generations -it plays like sonic colors -i wonder why mario can get away with the same playstyle with a gimmick and others cant though heh
Sonic forces: the story is there, but the build up isn't there, character development isn't there, it's made for people that make OC's and the is the worst in terms of people blindingly playing it like sheep. Overall: a don't buy/10.
The most frustrating thing is, Sonic Mania is just okay, frankly I hate Sonic Mania because yes they are Sonic fans but doing the same old same old is super lame, I love Sonic Forces because at the very least they are trying something different and not phoning it in. The only real highlight in Mania is Hydrocity and Stardust Speedway, Studiopolis is passable, Press Garden and Mirage Saloon are just 'okay'. I realize yes, Christian Whitehead also previously ported Sonic CD to XBLA/PSN/Steam, which is the version I played, but I expected better from that guy.
Also, I must be the only person who was down for Mania but actually didn't care for it much, because it retains most of the problems the series had -- why do I have to come to a total fucking stop to spindash, for instance -- and it borrows too many design conventions from Sonic CD, which I thought actually sucked. And before you lay into me for that, go play Sonic CD real quick, and see if you can get through even the _first stage_ before you run into several enemies or spikes you had no way of reacting to. Then spindash or peel out on the first act of the second zone. Isn't that shit fuckin' annoying? Why would you make it like that? Of course, I played Freedom Planet, which was the best Sonic game, and did away with many of Sonic's problems, but even then, I didn't actually expect Sonic Mania to compete with Freedom Planet, and I still left it feeling kinda let down. But hey, Super Tails is in it, and that's pretty sweet, but despite having twenty years to make sprites for him and Super Knuckles, they didn't. They didn't even give Super Sonic separate sprites for everything -- even that fan mod of Sonic 3 fucking did _that_ much -- so eh. I guess that kinda sums up my feelings on it: "Hey, this thing's pretty cool, but _that_ thing's back, and I hated that thing, so that sucks".
It's more Dissapointing then shit, in fact I hated the classic stages the most .feels like your controlling a fat blue brick, tho yer I agree the stages are waaaay to quick
sonic is a goddamn cartoon hedgehog with a 90's cool-dude attitude. why do they think they can pull off a serious story with sonic? he's really not built for epic sagas, he's built to go "hey, gotta go fast!" and then zoom away like he's the roadrunner. seriously, one of the most tense and dire moments in the entire series is happening, and sonic and shadow are doing jerk-off motions to power up, SA2, just before final hazard. that's what this series is.
Yal Rathol Sonic SatAM, the Comics, Unleashed, Rush, Adventure 1. Sonic _was_ written for serious senarios. But also to keep the tone lively and fun. That balance has been lacking in the past 7 years, seemingly moving on to be a decade, as they consistently try to write him like a Deadpool wannabe... And failing horribly.
Why do they complain about a kids game? These people are complaining about a game that’s made for 8 to maybe 16 year olds. Like these people are pushing 30 and complaining about a kids game. Like you guys got a sonic game for you a few months ago. Be happy with that. Let other people be happy with this one
MegaSkourge you see the thing is this “kids game” is a insult to a franchise that made good games look at mania that’s a kids game and guess what it’s fucking good now look at this train wreck lazy level design terrible villain boring gameplay honestly it’s more of a insult to kids then anything so please don’t use the “it’s just a kids game” thing cause that argument is really pointless and dumb
That's probably where a lot of it comes from. None of the games were that good even the old ones, nostalgia blinds people. Also, I never count Sonic titles that are overblown compliations of older games since most of those are recycling older levels (no wonder Genesis fans thought Generations and Mania were good and I liked those too). However, I'm not considering them good because of how they're made.
When was Lex Luthor invited to the friendcast
Shave Buttered Pat
IMDRanged they forgot about his eyebrows
Pooper
>the babbyhead pat
I laughed harder than I should have.
Pat's irrational hate of Superman suddenly makes a lot more sense now.
Pat is slowly turning into Charlie Brown.
"Good Grief, Woolie. Stop taking about short hair girls!"
Cliff Pierre, Not really sure if that's Jotaro or Charlie Brown.
Can't wait for Pat to get his own movie
"Jump for your life Pat Fuckboivin."
Why didn't Sonic sacrifice the Band of the Hog after half a year of torture?
aptspire ok I get the joke(band of the hog lol.) but it actually is kind of a thing where Sonic has unbreakable willpower. Because Unleashed.
thats all well and good. but the issue is that he doesnt change AT ALL. hes not hurt, hes not tired, hes not in distress. the man isnt even angry. hes exactly the same as always. hes like some kind of robot whose only setting is sarcastic cool guy
aptspire he would if they had waited a whole year to rescue him, meanwhile Knuckles and Amy realize they are in love with each other.
Well people deal with stress, grief, and trauma very differently. For all we know Sonic could be just putting up an act for most of the game.
Also shouldn't Infinite be the Griffith equivalent?
After all he used to lead a mercenary group, gave them up for higher goals, lost to a superior fighter, forsake everyone in order to obtain godlike otherwordly power due to his own weakness, and got a new identity that also came with a new mask/helmet. Now we just need a Guts to match him.
Also would t
if they really wanted to convey that in the story then they should have put in a few moments of weakness where the event actually does seem to affect him.
Pat has reached his final form of giant baby.
4:03 Oh God, why? Why doesn't「CRAZY TALK」work when we most desperately need it?
Because crazy talk cant change sega's bullshit
PLEASE CHANGE PAT’S PORTRAIT BACK THAT IS HORRIFYING
When he grows back his hair I will.
CaptainDemo779 Ageeed. Fuck, I thought Humpty-Dumpty was getting touchy-feely with Paige on stream before I realized that was Pat. I do not need to be reminded of this again.
NO WE NEED TO GO FARTHER
Levels are too short
The game feels like its on autopilot
Classic Sonic has no reason to be here
Weak story
Boring levels
It's mediocrity in its purest form.
Arby W. also chaos is there. he's apparently a fake. that kinda summarizes the entire thing actually.
All the old villains are fake.
Arby W. so, what you're saying is, the game is disguising itself in the clothing of more popular games in the series? i thought '06 was rock bottom, but someone keeps throwing them shovels.
Yal Rathol Its Izuka and his nostalgia pandering
More like it's painfully obvious Sonic team doesn't know what to do with the blue fuck anymore and desperately need a break.
Why does Pat look like baby Eggman?
I'll agree with Liam, you can get some enjoyment out of trying to speedrun the levels. The only thing that's really actually fun to me is using the Drill Wispon to absolutely break some levels.
Of all the times Pat's Crazy Talk could've kicked in, why in the hell did it decide not to do anything when Pat first declared the game would be a piece of crap?
Because deep down Pat was hoping it was gonna be good, therefor Crazy Talk didn't activate.
Damn, that's so beautiful and sad at the same time.
Mega Mix Jam So Pat can't abuse it to shape reality to his whims.
To bad...
Thats what happens when the super legit Sonic fans get to make a really good official game and then we get.....forces.
Not even crazy talk is that powerful
Get rid of the boost formula. Give me the Spindash Back from Adventure 1. Take the game off rails and make it a 3D platformer again. Leave 2D sonic out of the equation. Leave him to the Mania team. Sonic should have been gone longer or when released, too damaged to be used until alittle later when he recovered from torture. Also the "rookie" shouldn't have saved Sonic, it should have been Classic Sonic to do it instead if he's so involved. Takes a Sonic to save a Sonic which would give them an excuse of not being able to save Sonic all this time. Avatar levels and Modern Sonic levels are way too similar. Classic Sonic controls like SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT. Like so wonky it's ridiculous.
Shado nouz fuck the adventure games
You don't have to like adventure. Doesn't mean there wasn't some good things you can take from it. Atleast it was actually a game and wasn't boost to win on rails.
You should try lost world, no boost, spin dash, and a platformer
But its not very good
Adventure formula was decent when it came out but AWFULLLLL now
Going back to the adventure formula will kill the franchise
Wed end up with another 06 incident
Pat became a baby ball of flesh?
Wasn't he already?
I mean, more than usually. Just look at the picture of him. So hairless it's unsettling.
Shin Pat.
Dark Sonic stories are so weird to me. Not the fan stuff, that has a long history of being a thing, the fact the actual Sonic Team trying it again. Sega's never gonna let 'em tell a genuinely grim story with those characters, so why bother trying to go halfway?
Gray i don't think it's about sega letting them, i think it's that they genuinely can't tell an adult story with the characters they've created. the storybook series was a chance to do so, and they kinda squandered it.
That’s why we have the comics. Admittedly the Archie ones weren’t seminal to begun with, but once Penders took a hike and all his garbage characters were out of the picture, they struck a nice balance between goofy fun shit and sociopolitical world building stuff in a way that the games never really bothered to do.
The old Fleetway (British) Sonic comics were dark as fuck, too. Especially the shit with Super Sonic.
great for speed runners and sonic fans. could have just said nobody
The Pat comments are way more entertaining than this game is.
Liam's absence really becomes noticeable at times like these.
TieDef yeah i really miss smug child playing devils advocate for crap that absolutely should not be defended and getting super annoyed and defensive every time he's called out...sure miss that
Definitely not enough being contrary for being contrary's sake or defending obvious garbage just so they can feel like they're sticking it to others. Truly, the people's hero.
lance5445 he hates sonic forces too
While Liam's Devils advocate nature could get tiresome, there no balance here, for situations like this. forces is a bad game, but Matt and Pat are known to dislike 3D Sonic games from the get go (including Generations, since it makes Matt sick and Pat thinks the jumping is wrong), so hearing them try to convey to Woolie why the game is bad can be SLIGHTLY annoying because hey already had that bias. Let's say there's a bad Superman comic, a comic even Superman fans dislike. Now....have Pat, a man who hates Superman already, explain why it's a bad comic. It's just like that. So a person like Liam, who also thinks it's not a good game, is able to give a better analysis of the game. But the correct answer is having neither of those three tell Woolie. Either Woolie needs to play it himself (not Matt) OR someone outside needs to tell him.
I miss Liam but I don't miss 3D Sonic apologist Liam.
_(sees Pat)_ Noooooooooooooo!!
Why wasn't Woolie's picture with blonde hair?
After the disappointment caused by Forces, it's probably best that Sonic Team and Sega abandon the boost formula for now and do a new Adventure game. If they update the Adventure formula, fix its flaws, and learn from past mistakes, then things could have a chance at turning around for the better.
Also, Sonic Team shouldn't be split into two teams. It's ridiculous Forces only had 3 level designers.
The adventure style of gameplay can never come back because of 06, maybe give lost world gameplay another shot.
Diego Medina please no. the boost formula is fine, when done correctly. boost should be a reward for combos and badnik bounce chains, not something you just get from a capsule, and the stages should be heavy on the themes.
or, make every game play like rush, the inventor of the boost formula, where your goal is to attempt to platform while never releasing the right trigger.
Why do people keep on pinning this on the boost formula!? For crying out loud the problem with the game is that it's levels, while fun, are not dynamic enough.
Instead of hiring complete amateurs to make Sonic levels, like what they did with Forces, they need to get the same people who created levels for Sonic Rush, Generations and Unleashed.
Samir Malik I like the boost formula and agree the issues lie elsewhere, but I feel from a marketing standpoint they'd be better off for their next major game going back to an older formula that many people have nostalgia for. Kinda like Nintendo with Mario Oddysey going back to the long-untouched 64 formula.
Bucky McGhillygully if they do that it will be labelled as nostalgia pandering yet again. Because that's exactly what Sonic Team has been doing since Sonic 4. And it's tiresome at this point.
Not to mention Sonic Adventure feels of vastly inferior to the Boost games. The adventure games suffer from the same problems that Classics do, taking speeding spectacle out of your hands rather than making you responsible for it. That's what a great boost game does.
P-Pat? Is that you?
Pat looks ready to establish the first Canadian reich.
Comparing Unleashed or Generations' implementation of the Boost style gameplay to that of Forces is dishonest. Unleashed and Generations, while being fairly linear (especially the former) densely pack their levels with platforming or reaction challenges, different setpieces, and dynamic environments. Forces is extremely bland with copy-pasted enemy positions, barely any memorable mechanics or setpieces, and a MUCH higher level of automation than Unleashed Gens or Colors.
I was watching speedrunner mieDax's stream where he played GHZ in Generations after playing Sunset Heights in Forces. Both levels lasted 1:50 minutes roughly, but Generations FELT so much longer and more entertaining to watch because there was a lot more stuff him to interact with or react to.
tl;dr, I don't think it's correct to conflate all the boost games prior with Forces because Forces isn't designed nearly as well.
Shirojyuu I'm pretty sure infinite turning into a Lovecraftian Monster while destroying a city is a memorable set piece.
I didn't say there weren't any, just a severe lack of them. Operation Big Wave in Metropolis is a set piece I do remember, as is the whole event of Null Space. But a lot of the game feels like it's on autopilot.
woolie: "why are sonic games so divisive"
I just hate the stupid idiots that are saying "mania is shit compared to this"
Ah yes, the Bald Pat Chronicles.
Sonic was cool for like 6 months...
Rotted Pumpkin too bad he couldn’t stay cool past those six months.
smug Vagita Okay. 7 months.
I guess you can say sonic is...
WAY PAST COOL!
So good and bad games can exist but average games can’t. Dat logic.
Took me a minute to realize that the baldy was supposed to be Pat.
Woolie saying the Mania boss fight is tough is so fucking funny xD you can totally just jump those rockets he just sucks lmao.
Not really a "sonic fan" but I loved my time with Forces.
dont speak so loud brother, lest the mob burn you at the stake. there is a place for such speak, but not here.(shows hand sign shaped like a hedgehog.)
Then you liked it but decrying the criticism with commentary like yours does not do any favors for the brand or the franchise.
then you should play generations, the superior version, or colors, the more superior version.
@@TheRogueEmpire have you mentally matured since writing this comment?
I enjoyed Sonic Forces, but I will not defend it. Even though I liked the game overall (being that Sonic Boom was the last 3D Sonic game we got and it was shittier than all hell), I did have so many complaints about the game and these guys voiced what I thought was wrong with most of it (I disagree on the OC maker part being bad because that was actually kind of enjoyable and the Space Port level was actually pretty cool but of course extremely short). I was more pissed off with the fact that Classic had no point in being in the game, that the story (and also Infinite) was so poorly written for a game supposedly in development for a super long time, and that Eggman was once again the final boss.
Is the story okay at least? Also they should make another Sonic Riders.
Pats thoughts on Sonic Forces: spends the majority of the clip talking about Sonic Mania
A suggestion: change the picture of Pat to an egg with ginger eyebrows.
Sure, it's nothing brand spankin new but it's a pretty decent game. The mechanics are good and the storyline where egg man WINS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT AND ACTUALLY INNOVATIVE. I'm surprised no ones mentioned that.
They could at least let Pat keep his beard
Not adventure fans. Just boost fans
I used to defend this game to death when it first came out, and thought it was the first good modern sonic game since Generations.
I never thought that just a few hours after I beat the game, I would think that this game is honestly worse than sonic '06.
I don't think anyone will really agree with me, but I'm being serious. I really do think that Sonic Forces is worse than Sonic '06, even after how much I used to defend it.
06 has Forces beat by just raw content alone despite it's failure to fulfill it's ambitions. I'd rather play a game that tries and fails than one that doesn't try at all.
How is it any better or worse? Forces at least functions as intended, there are absolutely no redeeming factors in sonic '06.
The thing about Unleashed, and why it's still my favourite, is that it was _fast._ To this day it's the fastest 3d sonic game. Every other game after was slowed down due to it being to fast. And because it was the first "boost" game, they went all out with the level design, beautiful. _Generation_ is slow, bad story, fan-service-y, etc...I can see why Pat doesn't like it.
I think at this point the boost has over-stayed it's welcome...It worked best in the _Sonic Rush_ series and it's implemented... _well_ enough in 3D but... Sega needs to take a page out of Nintendo's book and study the adventure style game play and try and make an updated version of that. I mean, some say Mario Odyssey is Mario 64 but re-imagined, because Nintendo knows what worked and what didn't
So I guess _Generations_ is as good as it gets, huh? Well... Maybe down the line we'll get a boost-hybrid game that brings the blue blur back to some fun games with good controls.
(crossing fingers for _Shenmue_ style QTE's, though)
the boost formula is fine, it's just that colors started the trend of using it as a powerup you have to be gifted, which ruined it. build the game around absurd speed and quick reactions, give more boost for keeping a combo going and drop the QTE's, and i think you'd have a solid set of mechanics on your hands.
sonic's supposed to be fast, not on rails.
Hmm...I'm all for that actually. Like Unleashed speed, Generations _stability..._ The little side step moment in Rooftop Run, Spagonia was so satisfying when I got it down right. That's _fun_ to me.
I still want QTE's, but i want them completely differently. In _Shenmue_ there's no slow down for QTE, but at the same time you don't "die" by failing one (failing _a bunch_ is a different story). But if it's trouble mixing sonic speed and QTE it probably would be best to get rid of 'em.
Hasan Abdul-Jabbaar the reason i said to remove QTE's is because sonic + QTE has always equalled an annoying or pathetic section. if there's a way to make them work, i'm all for it, but i don't trust anyone to be able to do it without putting some blood on an alter and praying to a dark god for help.
From everything I here about modern sonic makes me think that sonic would be better as a tv show
What the fuck are they talking about? Mania's easier than all the classic games. I figured out the drop dash in the first level like goddamn.
Isn’t it designed to be easier, i.e. more accessible for modern audiences where some of the old games were just batshit insanely difficult?
Yeah, that’s right, Labyrinth Zone. I’m looking at you, you fucking bitch. You and your friend Flying Battery. Fuck you both.
Jeez it really makes you realize how shit people's opinions really can be when you see how many people will make excuses for Sonic games.
People miss Liam because it's convenient that he plays devils advocate...
I miss Liam. He was the voice of reason for fans like Sonic fans... but even then, this game AIN'T well that super great. I mean the gameplay is BETTER than 06 like hundred times over... but this doesn't change anything. Mania was a success... but compare to this... Sonic Forces SHOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD-GOOD. Just unbelievable good... and it went down to half.
Being better than 06 is not really a good defense these days. 06 was 10 years ago, we have gotten better and worse games than 06 in these past 10 years... and Forces i'll say its one of the worse.
Diego Medina disagree. I keep saying this again and again but forces is a game that is good. But fails to be great. I'm certainly not getting a Rules of Nature moment, as much as I wanted one from this game.
There is no voice of reason when it comes to Sonic fans.
Forces is not good, it's medicore.
Punished Venom Pat.
Sonic Forces isn't sonic boom or sonic 06 bad, but it is the no man's sky of sonic games (in that it didn't meet our expectations).
Unfortunately, it’s not the Sonic Boom TV show either, which would’ve been great.
I agree. The problem is that they lied about the tone and didnt have the balls to follow through on their statements.
-Eggman takes over the world
.....um where? Everyone SAYS he did, there are a few cutscenes of scared animals but never is it shown that "No Eggman has won, we lost, this is really really bad" Instead they bailed out in favor of (as Liam-senpai puts it) "Viva La Revolution" to which I agree.
-Sonic is dead
Then not even 5 minutes later
-SONIC ISNT DEAD
...okay but you still lie-
-Sonic had been tortured for 6 WHOLE months
Hmm okay okay I like that
-1 level later
Sonic mega okay, making wise cracks and somehow even stronger than when he first lost while he has been sitting on his ass being "Tortured" just so eggman can get that James Bond villian moment that never works......No fuck that, fuck all O' dat.
-"Tails is lost to us"
OH...Punished Tails?
-Cuts to tails being just..sad, not broken or crazy...just....sad....6 months and all we get is sad
-Immediately fixes Tails' saddness by giving him 2D sonic to play detective with (Which is his only real story role)
-Chaos is a villian! Ohhhhhh!
Chaos is never fought, he amounts to a jobber character. Really?
-Shadow is playable
Hey now, here we go
-Shadow Music from his game
OH BOY I LIKED THAT
-Shadow is DLC
.....oh....o..okay.
-Had 4 DLC levels
....i shouldve known better
Mania really set the ball high. Christian Whitehead killed it because he knows his craft and we love him for it and he gave us hope. Forces drops the ball so hard and we caved to despair. Sonic is IRL Danganronpa, where only Zetsubo awaits us.
The high point of Sonic Forced: it didn’t shit the bed.
It’s not bad... it just doesn’t do anything good.
3D Sonic games were never good.
Also, Sonic's death in this is as impactful as Superman's in the DCEU
Oh god, the shaved Pat cartoon is so much weirder than actual shaved Pat. All of this is wrong. Why has he blighted us like this?
It's not Unleashed. Unleashed is gold compared to Forces.
Yeah matt has strange opinions on sonic games at times. Like he once said "I miss the half pipe from Sonic 2 special stages" & thats been in everything for a while & people were sick of it
Sonic Forces needed at least another year of development to tweak the mechanics and like 3 more level designers. Preferably ones with experience. Coming out the same year as Mania was a mistake. And Classic should've been dropped if Mania was coming out
Ron, tell Kim Rufus got giant and cynical. He can't fit in your pocket to impress girls anymore.
I don't get why people hate it so much. Sure it's not perfect but it's definitely not terrible to play. If someone would please enlighten me I'd love to hear you out. Just please come at me with legitimate reasons and arguments, I'd love to have a healthy debate and/or conversation, not a pissing contest
Liam's play through presents a pretty fair response, if you want to know why people aren't reacting well. Anyone who didn't like 3d sonic before won't find anything new with the game. And unfinished parts/strange choices like adding classic sonic sections/ the null dimension being nothing for no reason disappointed fans.
I'm sure people can like it, but in the context of sonic mania and mario having come out recently it doesn't really do much aside from the character creation. Which again won't be to everyone's taste.
Because the game is almost insultingly easy, the overall tone of the story is all over the place, the dialogue is unbearable, and the whole selling point of the game which was "make your own Sonic fursona and go on adventures with your favorite characters" kind of falls flat with how inconsequential your OC is.
Mehul Sahai I can understand that pretty well. I hated a lot of the classic sonic stages in the game.
JoJones yeah I agree the story was extremely overhyped, and it falls flat. I have a feeling that the reason it's so short is they did some scrunching to get it out by the set release date.
This has been an exceptional year for platformers and it's really hard to recommend this to anyone who isn't a superfan when A Hat in Time, Odyssey, Crash Bandicoot, Cuphead and even Mania exist. Then you add really strange contrasting story elements that don't make up their mind on their tone like Pat said, and there is no real reason why should someone go out of their way to pick this up.
It's getting beat up because Mania is a better realized game on the same IP, released a couple months before it came out. And honestly, no one owes Forces anything, there's no point in defending or apologizing for mediocrity.
One Punch Pat
The whole "Sonic was being tortured" crap was an example of English dub nonsense. The original Japanese never had that little plot point in there.
Why is Pat bald?
At the time he got a haircut and shaved his beard.
Bad genes
The fact that the games are connected does not justify comparing them. They may be connected, but they are completely different style of games from each other.
Humpty dumpty pat
Why does Pat have cancer?
0:20 its sonic
Sonic forces was one of the slowest sonic games to date
It doesnt play like unleashed or generations
-it plays like sonic colors
-i wonder why mario can get away with the same playstyle with a gimmick and others cant though heh
I'm a vivid Sonic fan in general and I can personally say this game disappointed me.
1:38 me
sonic fans sure love punishment
Sonic forces: the story is there, but the build up isn't there, character development isn't there, it's made for people that make OC's and the is the worst in terms of people blindingly playing it like sheep. Overall: a don't buy/10.
The most frustrating thing is, Sonic Mania is just okay, frankly I hate Sonic Mania because yes they are Sonic fans but doing the same old same old is super lame, I love Sonic Forces because at the very least they are trying something different and not phoning it in. The only real highlight in Mania is Hydrocity and Stardust Speedway, Studiopolis is passable, Press Garden and Mirage Saloon are just 'okay'. I realize yes, Christian Whitehead also previously ported Sonic CD to XBLA/PSN/Steam, which is the version I played, but I expected better from that guy.
Also, I must be the only person who was down for Mania but actually didn't care for it much, because it retains most of the problems the series had -- why do I have to come to a total fucking stop to spindash, for instance -- and it borrows too many design conventions from Sonic CD, which I thought actually sucked. And before you lay into me for that, go play Sonic CD real quick, and see if you can get through even the _first stage_ before you run into several enemies or spikes you had no way of reacting to. Then spindash or peel out on the first act of the second zone. Isn't that shit fuckin' annoying? Why would you make it like that?
Of course, I played Freedom Planet, which was the best Sonic game, and did away with many of Sonic's problems, but even then, I didn't actually expect Sonic Mania to compete with Freedom Planet, and I still left it feeling kinda let down.
But hey, Super Tails is in it, and that's pretty sweet, but despite having twenty years to make sprites for him and Super Knuckles, they didn't. They didn't even give Super Sonic separate sprites for everything -- even that fan mod of Sonic 3 fucking did _that_ much -- so eh. I guess that kinda sums up my feelings on it: "Hey, this thing's pretty cool, but _that_ thing's back, and I hated that thing, so that sucks".
Sonic Forces is literally MGSV.
I'M ALREADY A HEDGEHOG
But MGSV had more content.
Sonic Forces (3 hours long)
+
Mgsv (50 - 200 hours long)
=/=
Same thing
It's more Dissapointing then shit, in fact I hated the classic stages the most .feels like your controlling a fat blue brick, tho yer I agree the stages are waaaay to quick
So the story has the same problem the Marvel Universe has where any attempts at a serious story get undercut by quips in every serious moment.
The major difference being there's no universe in which Sonic can be taken seriously, so it may as well not try.
Did you just compare Sonic Forces to Marvel?
That would be true... if Forces had a story.
sonic is a goddamn cartoon hedgehog with a 90's cool-dude attitude. why do they think they can pull off a serious story with sonic? he's really not built for epic sagas, he's built to go "hey, gotta go fast!" and then zoom away like he's the roadrunner.
seriously, one of the most tense and dire moments in the entire series is happening, and sonic and shadow are doing jerk-off motions to power up, SA2, just before final hazard. that's what this series is.
Yal Rathol Sonic SatAM, the Comics, Unleashed, Rush, Adventure 1.
Sonic _was_ written for serious senarios. But also to keep the tone lively and fun.
That balance has been lacking in the past 7 years, seemingly moving on to be a decade, as they consistently try to write him like a Deadpool wannabe... And failing horribly.
Pat's hyperbole strikes again.
Why do they complain about a kids game? These people are complaining about a game that’s made for 8 to maybe 16 year olds. Like these people are pushing 30 and complaining about a kids game.
Like you guys got a sonic game for you a few months ago. Be happy with that. Let other people be happy with this one
MegaSkourge you see the thing is this “kids game” is a insult to a franchise that made good games look at mania that’s a kids game and guess what it’s fucking good now look at this train wreck lazy level design terrible villain boring gameplay honestly it’s more of a insult to kids then anything so please don’t use the “it’s just a kids game” thing cause that argument is really pointless and dumb
I'd be inclined to listen to them if they didn't play on easy mode and still sucked at the game.
That's probably where a lot of it comes from.
None of the games were that good even the old ones, nostalgia blinds people.
Also, I never count Sonic titles that are overblown compliations of older games since most of those are recycling older levels (no wonder Genesis fans thought Generations and Mania were good and I liked those too). However, I'm not considering them good because of how they're made.