The Single Mechanic That Defined Yu-Gi-Oh
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*Do you think the Special Summon is ultimately the cause of Yu-Gi-Oh's problems today? Or perhaps its savior instead?*
Special summons isn’t the biggest problem. The problem is what it can go into. If you just summoned monsters big deal. The problem is you summon 3-5 big monsters with over 2500 attack that either negate, or bounce, etc basically Meg oning your opponent. If you have 3 Omni negates you have an answer to 3 cards that would handle you, so either they need 4 cards that check you, or cards that completely prevent those cards no reaction. How powerful those summons are is the problem, not the mechanic inherently.
As an addition I forgot, another problem is monsters became spells and traps but with attack and defense. What are the best spells or traps? The ones that bring out or search a monster, OR can’t be responded to, or a flood gate, and we have floodgate monsters.
Special summoning became a problem in the GX era. That era was the real start of archetype decks like E heroes, crystal beasts, and gladiator beasts. Konami had to write tourney-level power on each small group of cards that made up the "kit" for an archetype. That's where the term "engine" got popular. Archetype power creep quickly became the thing mid-GX era. Why play e-hero poly when these gladiator monsters can contact fuse and summon a boss monster from the fusion deck for free. Lightsworn were flooding the field for free. Monarchs could abuse the little monsters that never stayed dead for long. 5Ds era was the death blow to classic yugioh. Contact fusion was changed to synchro and required special tuner monsters. The best of those monsters could special summon themselves or the optimal non-tuner could special summon itself. That mixed with power creep snowballs into what is going on today. Top decks from the last 5 years don't even need to normal summon anymore. Everything written by Konami, that they want people to buy, has to be neutral or a plus 1. I laugh when people say they have a combo deck today. Card A gets card B which gets card C which gets card D which summons Boss monster A that starts the chain over again. All at neutral cost or the player pluses. A to B to C to D rinse and repeat is not a combo. It is a chain written into an archetype by Konami.
Special summons aren't really unique to YuGiOh though? As far as I'm aware almost every card game that features summoning units has means to summon those units beyond merely playing them from hand without an effect, or normal summoning in the context of yugioh. The cause of Yugioh's problems are the lack of any sort of resource you spend beyond the cards themselves and always has been.
Not the problem, per say. However it exploits 'not having a lease on'.
I think part of it, is that monsters are just easier to market and sell than spells and traps. I know people that when they collected back in the early days, they didn't care about spells and traps at all, they just liked collecting monsters. Konami can put monsters on the boxes and playmats, they can show them off on TV/movies, etc. Compare the amount of animations in Master Duel for monsters vs spells/traps. Compare the amount of sleeves, mats, etc with monsters on them versus spells and traps (I would buy solemn judgement sleeves, personally). And even when spells and traps have monsters on them, they're almost always in reference to an actual monster card.
great point
It's interesting how that hasn't been the case for Magic. It might partially have to do with the fact that the theme of the game is about you casting spells and so you shooting a lightning bolt can be just as cool as you casting a summoning spell to bring out a dragon, but a lot of powerful, iconic, noncreature cards get love in merch. Sometimes bad noncreatures too, like Fires of Undeath, just because people like the art.
I'm not sure about this. It just takes some imagination. Like, Pot of Greed is a spell card featuring an item WITH a lot of character. And cards like Mystical Space Typhoon or Raigeki or Magic Cylinder are really cool and I loved looking at them as a kid. Japanese card games are just obsessed with making everything a lady, dragon, a suit of armor, or some combination of the three because it's the lowest effort way to make something cool.
Sera Young provided some great examples from MtG above. Plenty of iconic spells, instants, and artifacts in Magic.
Special summons stopped being special. It’s rare to ever normal summon anymore. Normal summon is mostly done as an extender at this point, when it should be the other way around. I wouldn’t say Special Summon flat out ruined yugioh but special summons becoming the norm was an indicator that it’s these monster effects that became too powerful. Like you said, it used to require big spells or traps to do these special summons, and the monsters were the resource. Now the monsters summon themselves without needed those resources and have 3 more powerful built in effects. Most decks now run on 1 card combos to end on unbreakable boards.
the funniest part is that u normal summon like 3 times at least with floo, im sure it's a normal summon at that point
@Laken Anderson I used to feel like a douche for running Six Samurai. Little did I know how insane Yu-Gi-Oh would get
Ironically the game went from needing powerful cards for extra summoning, to making cards preventing or punishing it (Summon Limit, Nibiru, Max “C”).
@@Freya_Thuriaaz same. I remember when Six Sam’s came out and I thought it was so OP with how fast it was. It’s only gotten so much worse than we could ever imagine.
Aleister the Invoker would like to know your location.
As someone who last played in ‘04 and then picked it back up in 2019 right before the pandemic and has been on-and-off since then, I’ve converted from the old-school grinding style to a largely aggro-swarming beatdown approach that I’m more than glad to have made the jump to. I feel like the problems are not in the special summoning but in monsters just becoming too strong regardless. Hell, all cards just becoming too strong. The sheer magnitude of the power of the effects that these modern cards have, and also the heavy emphasis on negation. That’s what’s really ruining things for me. I wanna be able to play a game, not be told I can’t play after sitting through a half-hour turn because of strong effects comboing off into more effects over and over to the point where it’s too easy to set up some huge board and OTK because of the next big archetype’s power-crept gimmick or something-yeah yeah, play hand traps to stop them. Okay, but why devote 1/3 of my deck space to that stuff when there’s other cards I wanna use that are my favorites or that I actually enjoy using instead of contributing to the no-no negate fest.
Just, cards are too strong, turns last too long, the game is not balanced at all, and there’s an annoying premium on negation, and it all just feels like a mess. But nonetheless, I have a soft spot for this game so I’m sticking around just to see if things improve or go further haywire
And it really doesn't help you love the game when some dweebs just unironically says "Draw the out bro, should've ran this, should've ran that"
Great comment, I agree a lot!
Still playing 60 card sacred beast+Egyptian gods
@@Honest_Mids_Masher I always hate when people say that. Like even if you run the out you're not guaranteed to draw it when you need it (or you might draw the wrong one). Plus it's even worse now since the game has gotten so fast that you're usually screwed if you don't draw it in your first hand
@@Entei9000 Exactly like they're just making themselves look like one of the most punchable people on the internet and they probably know that
Monsters back in the day had a real "cost" to play, think of any chaos monster, Thousand eyes restrict, Gladiator beasts, Stardust Dragon, all these monsters required you to have your field or grave setup and you would LOSE something by summoning them or using their effects via tribute, shuffling into the deck, banishing, etc. More modern cards can be "reveal x in your hand, special summon this card", "if you control x, special summon this card", "if this card is summoned, you can special summon x". There is no cost, meaning cards that DO require a cost get power crept out. And the only way to balance no cost is just to make effects better each time.
The graveyard was also used to be considered a punishment for misplays. Now it's considered as basically a second hand, so much so that D Fissure, Macro Cosmos, Dark Law, Necrovalley, D.D. Crow, and Ghost Belle are things you never want to see come up
I think instead of putting a hard limit on summons they make a special summon zone like how they have a initial extra monster zone. For example the 2 monster zones on the sides of the the field are the only 2 zones you can Special summon from the hand to, the other 3 can be used to Special summon from the deck/graveyard/extra deck or even normal summon to. That means you can only Special summon 2 times from your hand before you have to make room elsewhere to summon from the hand again.
Yeah they tried that with one of the rules already. It was limited too each player only getting to use one link zone for extra deck creatures. Combo players cried about it so they reversed that rule within a few months.
@@IPLayedVR42Long thats not what happened xD the rule killed many rogue decks and basically said "you have to buy link monsters otherwise you can not play". Has nothing to do with "combo players crying"
@@IPLayedVR42Long "they reversed that rule within a few months" like, that rule lasted almost 4 years (2017-2021)
Well I think to clear things up a bit since I have a better way to explain it now. Make the 2 monster zones on the side "Sp. Summon zones" like how the spell/trap zone has its "pendulum zones". The 2 "Sp. Summon zones" are the zones you can use to sp. Summon from the hand/deck putting a soft limit on how many monsters you can summon per combo, the other zones can be used to allocate spaces to get rid of monsters you have like Xzy, link, Synchro, or fusing your monsters into them so you can keep your "sp. Summon zones" free. You can sp. Summon from th GY and extra deck into any zone and normal Summon into any zone, but only allowing 2 sp. Summons at a time from the hand/deck would slow the game down enough to make it "like the good ol' days" and not completely kill the game.
They do (Summon Limit,) but it's in an unsearchable floodgate trap card.
After getting a bunch into other TCGs and their resource systems, I feel like, if anything, there are three things that define Yugioh as a game.
1) The Extra Deck: No surprise here, the extra deck is practically unique to Yugioh
2) The Special Summon: While there are ways in every TCG to cheat monsters/creatures/minions/whatever into play, rarely the "rules expected" way of doing so is by cheating them. Yugioh is kind of the exception, monsters having inherent special summons or effects that special summon other monsters for no cost is kind of an oddity in the TCG larger environment.
3) Searching: Now hear me out here, every TCG has ways to search other cards. What makes Yugioh unique is the sheer critical mass of searchers we have across all card types. Monsters that search on summon, spell cards that search any archetype specific card, card that special summon from the deck. Compare this to Magic for example, where tutoring a card is something a very select few cards can do and they either consume several resources, have some limitations depending on the color and 90% do not come with a body to the field.
When you add all of this together, you have a game that is hyperconsistent. Your main deck monsters can summon themselves for free, enabling extra deck plays; your cheap extra deck monsters and main deck monsters and spell cards search from the deck, enabling more special summons to enable more extra deck plays. The extra deck being there makes sure you can reliably have access to your extenders and payoffs, so you can optimize your main deck to be full of starters.
This creates a perfect environment for combo to be the one and only way to play while utilizing the mechanics. Tempo means practically nothing, at least not in the sense most other TCGs use it (I would argue Yugioh has kind of a tempo game where the out resourcing your has more to do with having more combo pieces available, but that just kind of feeds the main point I am making). You cannot have aggro decks, because every deck can OTK effectively. There are some control-esque decks, where you mostly play handtraps and traps, but they are always rogue or...
So how you play against combo? You don't let them play. That is why Stax and Stun decks are so powerful in Yugioh. Most other TCGs, someone drops a floodgate and you have several turns to draw your out, or poke them to death. Yugioh's floodgates are extremely strong because they compete with hyperconsistent combos. That is how things like Mystic Mine, TCBOO and their ilk came to be.
If anything, I think that is the main problem with Yugioh, design wise. The game is too consistent. That makes the games samey and super short, as every card in your deck cheats your resources in play, stops your opponent from playing or is a combo piece on its own. There is no "spend several turns searching for your combo piece" that could be used for aggro, control or midrange plays.
If I had to guess a way of "fixing" this without attacking the integrity of the game, I would get rid of every extra deck monster designed to be a combo piece. Half of the cyberse package, for instance. Then I would reduce the amount of monsters that special summon themselves or others for free. And then I would slash down half of the Stratos-like effects. I have no problem with big bombs existing like Baronne and Apo, as long they aren't something you can drop Turn 0 every single time
Your first statement about the extra deck being the best and worst thing about yugioh is so true. The extra deck as a permenant toolbox is what makes yugioh so fun, but at the same time the most broken cards in the game are either easily accessible floodgates in the extra deck (ex: true king of all calamaties), or cards that generate tokens (linkross), or summon/send generic cards to the field/to the graveyard (halq, curious, etc.)
Yeah it's way too easy to get big monster with big effect. And there's too many generic staples like this. It's both fun and obnoxious.
Good thing we have a banlist to keep them in check.
The extra deck's expansion and higher availability really made any deck an evolved ratbox.
Im primarily an MTG player, and i compared it to our commander format, where we have 1 monster we always have access to outside our deck. It’s basically like having 15 commanders. Which is bonkers.
@@EighteenStudio decided by who? The players? Is it ideal?
Just my perspective as a long time magic player (I did play OG ygo, and have started playing on master duel as well), it's not that a limit is necessary or that there's no resource system, but rather that ygo is actively ignoring its own resource system.
Like back when ygo first came out, your resources were limited to what was in your hand, on your field, and very rarely in your graveyard.
Current ygo you can basically feed your graveyard with whatever cards you need and consistently cycle cards in and out without limit, which to me is basically like being able to just dump as many lands as you want out onto the field in mtg in order to make big plays very quickly, which does kind of already exist in Legacy with busted cards like the Moxes and Black Lotus and surprisingly games only last a few turns because of that.
The problem is not the number of special summoned monsters, it's their effects of preventing the opponent from making plays...
BASED
Me using my entire hand to summon 8 cyberdarks throughout my turn isn't the problem. The problem is with decks being able to use 1 to 3 card combos to make progressively more insane. Different example; If I use my entire hand to make slifer and my opponent just uses 2 d/ds, ends on a field of boss monsters and can just snatch steal my entire turns of effort with 1 xyz that is when you stop having fun. The only plausible solution I can think of is divided decks into different tiers and doing tournaments for those tiers respectively. That usually makes it fun again
No tearlaments monster is an Omni-negate or a flood gate and the only monsters they ever summon that are are Baronne or dweller which have particular applications. But people (myself included) still complain about tearlaments
@@ultimatekyle7485 basically alternate formats and dedicated low power or fun deck tournaments
@@ducky36F Rulkallos is a walking Solemn Strike
no get rid of the huge "You cant play yugioh cards" and guess what the Game STILL will not be fun.
Simple reason, its not Fun or enjoyable to just sit their watching as youre opponant goes through 20-30 cards or half their entire deck or somethimes what feels like their ENTIRE deck for 10-15 Minutes.
nothings fun or enjoyable about watching a Slideshow.
I think Yugioh's power creep is much more a function of it's format system than it's game mechanics. Since there is only one format that has to include all the cards ever printed, for new cards to sell the new strategies have to be stronger than past ones. They can ban the shit out of strategies that were too strong also, but if you start banning just good but not broken stuff it will start to seem excessive and the banlist would just balloon infinitely. If Yugioh had a set rotation system for it's main format, it would reduce the need (from a design standpoint, if not a financial one) to constantly one up older archetypes. It would of course bum some people out that they couldn't play something like Blue Eyes in the current format if it wasn't reprinted. On the other hand, it could be played in a side all cards or classic format without constantly needing absurd new support to try and retrofit it to match ballooning powercreep.
Special Summons aren't "Special" anymore. They're routine.
Remember speed counters in 5Ds'. They gave me an idea. Each turn a player gains a single counter up to 10. This is just a passive resource, no cards interact with it. Just between turn changes. Each time you special summon in any regard, you use one counter. Might push for the game to have players think about build up. You can't just drop everything. It would be an interesting way to play regardless.
i thought about this idea and it was my idea of implementation but ya when ever i broguth it up on forums, i get people telling me "IT WOULD KILL YUGIOH!!!"
and what not.
ive honestly come to realise the game has so many people who are so reliant on the power creept and Abuse of a single maechanic to even be "good" at the game that they cant comprehend any other scenario where their not dumping a gazzillion monsters onto the field over the course of turn 1.
and then you got those same people being "Trap cards are Too Slow"
Like......What???
but i cant help to realise this, but why is it these complaints and desires for easy wins and stuff always come from Zoomers?
the refusal to go back to a slower paced game where both get to play, Gaming as a whole, People will litterally complain if they cant buy Skins in the game or cant spend $1000 to skip through progression, all come from Zoomers?
maybe im just being a "ageist" or dunno but its a observation.
@@TheFallinhalo I do think that that sort of limit on summoning is a terrible idea. Meta would shift further away from combo decks (the only good one is tear) and more to decks that special summon less like branded and swordsoul and then it goes back to stun/control decks like Eldlich. Decks like synchron, HERO's and such would be further pushed out of the meta. I'd rather they find a way to limit the "negate the activation" effects rather than limit the number of summons because then the meta will revolve around that
Sorry about your experience on the forums though the community does suck and they get way too heated about things but yeah there's a reason why people would say it'd ruin Yu-Gi-Oh
@@TheFallinhalo I’m far removed from high level meta play, and mostly play Duel Links, but this still sounds pretty dang slow to me.
On turn one, if I normal summon a level-4-or-below monster, special summon a level-4-or-below monster, and then use those two monsters to go into a single monster from the Extra Deck, I’m not doing anything crazy. *But that opening turn wouldn’t be allowed in your proposed format.*
~A Millennial
Have you tried any of the alternative formats that already exist? Goat/Time Wizard/Speed Duels?
P.S. This might be a neat alternate format, but if you’re suggesting adding this “speed counter” idea to the general game, it would absolutely break most of it. I play The Weather, which isn’t some crazy good archetype destroying my opponents left and right. It wouldn’t function in the proposed format AT ALL.
This would completely neuter a lot of decks meta, rogue, and jank alike.
Also backrow would become so insanely powerful, I just can't see this being much better than our current state.
@Just Mega That is the point. Slow the game down, the issue in the video is stated around the current meta decks and their spamming special summons. So naturally any solution would affect them greatly
I mean Yu-Gi-Oh has the resource system in the normal summon absolutely The thing is that it was such a strict limit that Konami couldn't power creep effectively while making it a real limit and so they couldn't sell more product so they had to completely circumvent it in order to keep pushing the power levels.
If there were no architects the game with unlimited special summons wouldn't be as bad because most of the time that stuff that does special someone they want it's usually archetypes so there were no archetypes in the game I don't think the game would be in the state that it's in right now.
@@celtic1842 The game would be so much worse if cards weren't archetype locked. If every deck had access to all of the best cards every deck would eventually look the same as players found out which spells were inherently better than others.
This happened for awhile in Magic with "The Deck" back in 1996, and again in 2019 with the Oko/Uro pile meta. Magic got out of those metas because of rotation. Yugioh doesn't have that, without rotations or archetypes the game would devolve into who could summon X creature that everyone uses first.
@@LSgaming201 but aver deck now looks the same and no if card are more generic you only have a few cards card that everybody would uses. Because if there are a handful of really good cards it makes every deck more playable. The reason why a lot of DM era cards got banned was because kanami was wanting to sell more GX era cards and archetypes.
@@celtic1842 Konami banned cards like Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, and Magical Scientist because they're busted and made for unhealthy game states, not because they wanted to sell GX stuff. Second Yugioh decks do not all look the same even in the current Tier 0 Tearlament nightmare we all get to live through right now. Albaz decks, Skystrikers, and even Dinos of all things are sneaking in wins here and there. What I am talking about is literally everyone playing the same set of cards and racing to get their cards out first because that is what would happen
@@LSgaming201 the reason why they didn't ban any of she's or tillerman card is because they wanted to keep selling sets. The band list is not just there to make the game stay healthy it's also a way for toonami to sell more cards. The only reason why monster reborn came off the band list was because of the alternate part or secret art cards that came out. So if there was a special alternate art version of Pot of greed. They would take it off the band list to sell hacks or cards. Think about when they banned a zodiac they banned it to sell more cards.
I think that the main issue is not in the number of summons, but in the investment that those summons require. That is to say, the summons pay for themselves many times over and the level of consistency. Most decks will get their full board setup off of any given normal summon and most of it is because they're yanking stuff right out of the deck.
Also that there's so many more floating effects, so when you build a huge board and it gets broken that it's not really a big deal because you can rebuild it in the next turn, anyway. Like Eldlich can be hit by a Feather Duster and not even care, or Phantom Knights can have Nibiru dropped on them mid-combo and then just use all their GY effects to continue as if nothing happened.
There are many decks that do exactly what they're trying to do perfectly well, but the one issue they face is the level of investment that it takes - that is to say, if a deck can make a full board but needs to exhaust its hand to do so, it's competing against decks that can do the same thing while having more cards in their hand than when they started.
Conversely, we can look at Rush Duel. It has UNLIMITED normal summons AND has you always draw to 5 but the power level is still way lower because there aren't as many cards to search nor are there as many cards that give strict advantage while being used as fodder. The tribute fodder monsters that do pay for themselves are few and far between and also do rely heavily on a level of randomness OR interaction with the board state.
i think you're essentially just saying that monsters nowadays are just spells on sticks, unlike older yugioh. now you get both the body as a resource and the "free" effect.
Far too late now of course, but the proposed rule of "Special Summons limited to turns taken", probably would have been good to apply really early on. Would have led to radically different design even if the Extra Deck still evolved the same way, and would have incentivized counting turns, opening that design space further.
Lets be honest: Konami would've found a way to implement cards that increase the amount of amount of special summons allowed during a turn.
Thats powercreep.
Nah, this would kill Drytron, Virtual World, Punk and so many other decks.
@@justshitman6562 the point is that it would've been a rule from the outset of yugioh, so those decks you listed either wouldn't exist or be designed fundamentally differently.
Crazy powerful decks that special summon 10 times are a problem (like rocket link or tear) but some decks need to do that just to fulfill Thier regular end board (like wind ups, evil twins, or phantom knight.)
To me the problem is not the number of summons per turn, but rather the shift in win conditions and how much cards do to help you achieve it. The universal strategy nowadays is to prevent your opponent from playing at all either by interrupting every action they do or by invalidating their previous turn with 1 card.
Also starters and extenders do way too many things. Many monsters not only special summon themselves for no cost, they also search your deck for key cards such as extenders and interruptions. Some even have both boss monster tier stats and spot removal (see Kashtira monsters).
It doesn't help either that the Extra Deck monsters (whose materials are now single-handedly provided by 1 card) also have generic summoning conditions, give advantage and have free distuptions that, unless stopped right in their tracks by generic unsearchable outs (DRNM, Lightning Storm, Dropplet, etc), will snowball on your opponent making a comeback effectively impossible, thus ending the game without much interaction beyond turn 3.
@@luchotenks2310 I'm not sure if it was Paul who suggested this but one of the Yugi tubers suggested no first draw for either player. The difference would be that the going second player starts with six cards in their hand to give them a higher chance of opening hand traps. They would not draw at the start of Thier first turn though( the second turn of the duel). I think this would help a lot but does lean into the reliance if hand traps which it self its own problem.
I personally think we can go into a draw two per turn rule change. This basically eliminates "top decking" as a near death sentence when facing a board of multiple Omni negates and interruptions. Balancing the minimum deck size (like 50 cards) might be needed for this but I feel like it would allow for more back and fourth.
@@sinmethodical1837 What I don't know is how this 2 card draw phase would affect card design. I'd rather Konami focused more on consistency and resiliency over explosive combos that end on oppresive boards of generic boss monsters. The last thing I want is for decks that already do this with 1 card combos to able to do that again that same turn due to an extra draw, thus defeating the purpose of a 2 card draw phase for the opposing player. The opposite is also true. Bricking first turn with a 5 card hand is going to be brutal if your opponent going second starts their turn with 7 cards.
Maybe 50 card decks with regular 1 card draw phases is the way to go. Konami can use this chance to give decks type/attribute/archetype specific engines to help their consistency while simultaneously giving them much needed restrictions to prevent unrelated decks from ending the turn on identical boards.
As for the "top-decking the out" conondrum that going second players face, what do you think about a mulligan rule?
@@luchotenks2310 mulligans could be cool if implemented the way other games due by giving 1 less card to start. I think this would make board breakers much more viable. I hadn't really thought about increasing the deck size minimum by it self outside of balancing a draw 2 draw phase. I think they could probably start there. This would have such a big impact on ftk strategies and they could probably ease up on consistency cards in the ban list.
_pot of greed to one_ :)
I think a tier like system would alleviate a lot of issues within the community. There could be tiers for like old heads like me, with specific ban lists, summoning limits etc, and tiers for no holds barred people, who want to special summon 25 times a turn, use any card they want, banned or not, and take 30 minutes to make one play. Other games have specific types of battles which are determined prior to playing, so I think Yugioh could benefit from this as well.
i think it would really help if konami supported alternate formats
Special summon is great when it's like 1 to 2 monsters but now it's all special summon and 20 minutes of watching your opponent vomit there hand and deck out is crazy. When from a few to a million special summons. Got to love the growth of Yu-Gi-Oh
I think maybe the number of special summons per turn should be limited to 5 ,7, or 9. Depending on how you count the monster zones
I've seen many comments that say "just limit summons!" I really don't think that's a great idea.
One point was brought up in the video, there are some decks that just wouldn't be able to function. You have Synchrons, that thrive off of bringing out lots of weaker monsters to make a few stronger ones, there's Phantom Knights who are similar in that regard, HEROs that summon a lot to end on fusions with little interaction.
Then there are decks that are the complete opposite, doing very little to end on usable boards. You have Branded; you summon once or twice every turn and can make exceptionally powerful fusions, Swordsoul summoning 3-6 times making a stronger board than HERO.
And then we have everybody's favorite playstyle, the backrow decks. Eldlich sets 5 and summons one monster, Skystriker makes a mech or two, sets some spells, gets a multirole in rotation, Dinomorphia sets 5 and makes an absurd fusion on the opponent's turn.
TL;DR there are both weaker decks that can't function if they can't summon 20 times every turn and stronger decks that do 2 things and win
In my mind, the issue is how many cards are designed to enable plays to continue. And I don't mean generic extenders, but rather the cards that automatically replace themselves in your hand with something else (via drawing or searching), or that have effects that trigger/activate when they're sent to the GY/banished/etc in addition to other effects that would have already activated on play. It's like these cards/archetypes are simply designed to be good and "never run out of gas," and to bypass any sort of resource system that might be in place. Summoning from the deck is another good example, since it bypasses the need to have things in your hand. The occasional card that does these things is fine, but when one card is designed to chain flawlessly into another into another... that's when things get out of hand. Literally, since what's in your hand no longer matters as long as you can get the one-card combo going. But, maybe that's just how the game evolves.
The fact that 'costs' are fake or can even benefit you is something often overlooked about this game. Very silly that you can build a board and replenish your hand after going through so much of what are supposed to be your resources.
This. This is the problem. The fact you can easily replace any cost you spent every single turn in every single game is what makes Yugioh ridiculous.
Put any other TCG player to see a single Yugioh turn and their comment will be "so did you get the golden hand or something?" when in reality the hand you got sucks. Why? Because you have so much recursivity that you rarely have to stop activating effects because you ran out of gas
As broken as pendulum summoning was, at least it was once per turn, like a normal summon. That's what should have been for the other mechanics, one of each type per turn.
Nah that would kill decks like synchrony or ritual beasts
It's kinda funny how special summons are so normal while normal summons are special.
Deep Thoughts with The Deep
THIS ^^
My personal thought for YuGiOh is that you cant really deal with the power creep we have while keeping to the overall rules we have and that I think we don't need to limit say special summons to attempt to bring it in line but put in a new set of master rules pertaining to what we call soft and hard once per turns,, and possibly adding limits to what you can do overall per turn like normal summoning is normally.
One would be scrapping things like "when" that causes missed timings just for game flow reasons, but also scrapping the current hard over soft once per turn and turning it to all hard once per turns as a part of the core rules.
The second would be to say limit type of effects a easy example would be adding a card from the deck to your hand, we could use pot of greed as a baseline and say per turn you can add from your deck to your hand 2 cards per turn, this also fixes cards like maxx "c" giving it a hard limit, it also means if you play consistency cards to draw two you cant use say a evil twin ki-sikil to add a card to your hand the same turn you hit your limit.
This then can give some control over the game without outright putting a limit on what makes the game unique the special summon mechanic, but also makes things really slow down, image for example if you put a limit on say negates that you can only negate one of each card type, monster, trap and spell per turn. so making a board of omni negates now has far less impact and even floodgates now have less power.
As with these overall rules skill drain would only get to negate one monster then it's offline because of the hard limit on negations, add similar limits to other mechanics like deck to grave or reborning monsters and I think you could have a fun but slower game that rewards your management of game mechanics more.
Would kill some archetypes and strats like many FTK decks would die but rule changes would make big impacts.
I was thinking the exact thing on the negation limit though it'd be specifically the activation since most monsters negate that and the only ones off the top of my head that don't is the handtraps, Chixiao and hot red dragon archfiend abyss which won't make much differences due to many ways to play around them.
There should also be a way to make actual trap cards and spells useful again too though I can't think much on that.
Skill drain I feel should work more like that Nordic trap that negates all faceups currently on the field once before going offline.
Adding cards though I disagree with since some decks just naturally need to do that more than others like crusadia and then there's decks that don't rely on that and special summons or sets from the deck instead.
Soft once per turns I don't mind tbh Abyss Actors really only live on that and dragunity gae darg is also used for that reason along with many other decks with effects that are soft OPT however not many have effects as good as ones as hard OPT's and not to mention nowadays that's not really abused anymore (Firewall dead).
I've been arguing this for the longest. There definitely should be a Special Summon limit, though deciding that might be arbitrary. Needing to actively protect monsters on the board and having that tug-o-war is classical the Yu-Gi-Oh struggle. Which is why the whole concept of vomiting monsters unchecked without loss in card economy pretty much made it a different game than how it started. "Costs" are often just part of the engine and not really a cost anymore. That's a huge deal for turn 0 because there's no longer a commitment needed to protect monsters since even the boss monsters are expendable.
There are too many self-Special summoning monsters, to the point that they're pretty expected now and if your deck doesn't have them, it's underwhelming. At first you had them as costs that may not always be met liked BLS/DAD, then we started getting bosses that made you go plus like Grapha (compare it to Machina Fortress which is at best a net zero).
Ultimately, Konami won't change the card design, which is beyond broken at this point due to overly stacked effects and easy special summons.
They have no reason to change it, people are still buying boxes.
Even with a resource system, Konami would power creep resources just like they do with every other limitation in the game.
synchro summon required resources, used the star ranking system and was limited by tuner types I think XYZ not being limited by type but rather just the number started a combo heavy trend.
Family told him you better get that Yu-gi-oh stuff out of your system before we all sit down for dinner
That gaming chair looks like it has a better material than the first ever plain black gaming chairs.
YGO had two resources that nowadays can get ignored very easily. One was the normal summon, which some decks don't even need at all, and there's even Floo who just laughs at the normal summon limit. Two was cards in hand. So many decks grab specific cards directly from the deck instead of relying on drawing and luck, they refill their hands with recursion effects, or just activate ton of effects from the graveyard so even with an empty hand and having an opponent wipe your board, you still can make plays or even full combos like Grass and Reasoning decks do.
The joke about special summoning being the new normal summon really isn't a joke. Infinite summons from anywhere, or one single summon from the hand. Which of the two do you think is the special one?
Been saying for years, early yugioh, Monsters and summoning was the resource system in yugioh.
Then the past 13 years special summoning took over to such a degree that it no longer really a true resource system.
There's also no summon limits or costs to play monsters from the hand in games like Cardfight! Vanguard, but spamming monsters from the deck is usually a mid-late game mechanic since damage and the soul (basically XYZ material) is a resource thats spent to do shit like that.
If Yugioh had a similar mechanic (say in an alternative format where you spend LP for each special summon), it'd result in a radically different, slower, control-based meta since decks like Dragon Link or Dracoslayer would burn themselves to death doing their combo lines (not to mention would lose due to time rules). Chain Energy and other chain burn decks would also be stupidly good in this format.
yeah we needed way more lifepoint based activation and maintenance costs to serve as a resource system and to make LP matter again
Defining Yu Gi Oh is the extra deck itself, were you can special summon monsters of your own choice. If you have the resources of course. You don't need to draw or search them like in all the other TCGs I'm aware of. That makes reliable engines possible, where other TCGs have to rely on insane draw capacity and more same cards per deck.
Also: A shift in Yugi happened when monsters got quick effects. Before you had to rely on traps, quickplay spells or flip monsters to interupt the opponents play, making the game a lot slower because you were wasting resources one for one to do so.
I cant really imagine playing yugioh without special summoning less than 4 times,maybe its because i joined in during the spyral format but more than likely decks are playable because their cards work so well with each other and have synergy to search each other and be special summoned easily
Thats what is enjoyabale about yugioh,the fact that there is no limitation and you can make a deck that can make crazy combination of cards that would not be available in other card game settings
Tbh i dont even want to go back to the old format after imagining what crazy stuff we can see in the future
Not only everyone fills the board with cards turn 1 these days. But the effects of the cards are all some form of negation. The scope of the game is now to deny your opponent to play the game. I like the old yugioh better. The games used to be way longer (and not because one guy was playing solitaire by himself while you waited your turn), more intense and they always seemed fair
the most problematic mechanic is "search"/"add to your hand"/"from your deck"
special summons can be handled,
but every card moving other two cards it's what made yugioh resolve in one or two turns
Agreed while those effects were definitely there in early yugioh, with cards like mystic tomato, shining angel, ufo turtle, those at least came only after you battled those monsters, yes sangan and witch of the black forest are also worthy of mention, but still those didn't allow for the insane amount of special summons/OTK that yugioh seems to be so rampant with, though aye too be fair special summon is also a bit of an issue, but still there are a lot more ways to deal with just a special summon of 1 monster, but the extended combo plays/ending up on a full board of negates is atrocious to say the least.
I would say that it's too late to act. Any changes would ruin the game. If we make a limitation like 'max 10 specsumons' then every deck will make combos for 10 specsummons. Also later Konami will powercreep it with efects like 'you can ultymate summon this card'.
Also just like Floow they can make normalsummon just like specialsummon, they just call it normalsummon. But it's clearly specsumon except they say it's an additional normal. What is the difference? Nothing.
Konami- You can only normal summon once per turn
Floowondereeze- Hold my beer
Idk what's the source of the problem is but the fact that yugioh is becoming basicaly 2 players playing their own single player game pulling the same combo strings and hopefully end up with better board than the other person after 1 turn is a problem.
I think the special summon mechanic is not the problem.
The problem is that a player can have many cards that have effect to special summons another monster.
The same thing goes with negates. If one player has too many negates (monsters on board or handtraps), the other player cannot play.
Cards should not be limited by 3 copies but also by cards efffect.
Monsters are still the main resource to manage, the difference is that it is no longer only through summoning: discarding, sending, or banishing monsters to activate effects, only summoning X type of monsters, having/not having monsters in certain zones, link arrows, etc. It is a natural progression of the original system.
more like obliteration
I don't mind the idea of special summons, even when decks can summon a million monsters in one turn. What bugs me is that it seems so easy and a lot less gimmicky nowadays. Back in the Synchro era my friend ran a Fabled deck and at times he'd be special summoning a ton of monsters and his turn would last for several minutes, but I was fine with it since he needed a very specific set up to not only be able to discard them, but to have reliable ways to do so. These days it seems that most decks pop off just as effectively (or even better) with one normal summon, or a special summon that only requires you to control/not control X type of monster.
I think the main problem is the generic-ness of boss monsters. Look at any monster from the extra deck that is currently banned. More often than not, they are at least somewhat generic so that multiple decks can access them at almost any time. This leads to them potentially becoming a problem rather than being confined to a single archetype. We very rarely get an archetype that immediately becomes a problem on its own (Tearlaments is an example), so most of the time in-archetype boss monsters aren’t the problem….it’s the super generic ones that also have super powerful effects. A semi-recent example is Zeus when it came out. It gave any Xyz deck a board wipe that’s not once per turn (and actually not once per chain either).
Monsters are a resource, but spells and traps are too, which is all the cards essentially. Cards, LP, Extra deck mechanic, and the normal summon are the 4 different resources of Yu-Gi-Oh from what I see. Most card games require 2 resources at a time for utilizing cards (for MTG, it's Mana and cards, for Keyforge, it's cards and only playing from a certain third of the cards that one has determined ahead of time on that turn). For Yu-Gi-Oh, it's cards and the normal summon, that means Spells and Traps, which don't use up the normal summon, are going to need to stay within a range of power level to not break the game. The way I see it, Monsters did not need as much of a limit as most relevant monsters needed to be normal summoned or resummoned by another effect (not their own) so that's where most of the power creep took place, because monsters inherently need more resources to utilize effectively.
Yeah I’ve found that games are rly only fun when there’s strict rules and restrictions, because when you break it down, that’s all a game is. I’m too tired to put what I mean in a good way but I think the best games work against you and feel like mazes; you have to find a path to victory inspite of the restrictions they’ve set for you. No maze is good if you have too much freedom and can just walk wherever you want. And Yugioh’s gotten to the point where players are given too much freedom to do whatever they want. Like as you say 1 of the main restrictions of the game is that you only get 1 normal summon a turn and you have to work with that. But normal summons don’t really matter anymore if at all. And another main restriction is hand size/drawing; you have to work what’s in your hand, but most players go through about half their deck on the 1st turn now, and pick whatever cards they want from their deck. And effects read like tinder profiles now where they’re rly trying to sell you on them and want you to put them in your deck. They feel like they work *for* you now whereas they felt you had to work *with* them before
An idea I’ve had for a while is introducing a Slifer red format where you’re only allowed like 2 or 3 special summons a turn. A Ra yellow format where you’re allowed like 5 special summons a turn. And an Obelisk blue format where you’re allowed unlimited special summons. And maybe you could also play around with how many effects and handtraps and stuff you could use a turn
There should be a special summon limit 3 for extra deck per turn or 5 overall special summon per turn.
Nibiru was basically a bandaid fix similar to that but then people figured out ways around it with appaloosa or Infinity :/
You should look into Trinity Format, it's a fanmade alternate format of YuGiOh where you can only summon up to 3 Effect Monsters per turn
@@tanjiro2831 I think effect monsters a too much of a limit. But if you limit extra deck your opponent can't just pull out their whole extra deck in a turn. Either make it 3 per turn or 2 per turn
@@exiaR2x78 Floonder only need 5 to put up the barrier statue. That makes niburu a dead card.
@@Jonathan-tw4xm That is too restrictive. The best is to make it commander. 100 card singleton in the main deck and a 30 card extra deck. Make all cards legal and make cards like pot of greed once per duel.
I think if the very "limit" for special summons was a dynamic number that could go up or down depending on effects (such as losing one summon as an effect cost) would be a good skeleton for a resource system in an alternate format of yugioh
Swordsoul would be too good since they hardly activate as many effects as synchrons before they even summon a single thing after junk speeder
It all comes down to cost. Doing things should cost something. A card that summons itself and plus 1s into a card that plus 1s into a plus 1 shouldn't really exist.
really think you should do this kind of talk with others that also experience yugioh from the start till this day, this is really interesting topic.
I think power creep is a problem to those on the receiving end of it but is a solution to the two other major parties in any card game: the players who wants to win at all cost and don't care about the balance of the game or the overall fun disparity in a duel and the company who wants to make money. These two parties are responsible for the state of the game but imo, if there isn't a community of people constantly trying to break the game by buying whatever it takes to win at any cost, Konami would have to work 3x harder to invent new and fun mechanics instead of just more powerful ones.
Mirror Force was God tier for me back in the day along with cyber jar. Jinzo shut a lot of decks down back then as well
the special summon is just the visible phenomenon, the problem is still the lack of inherent resource system, and yes, your word of "yugioh don't lack resource system, maybe we lack the limit", but one of main purpose of the resource system is that "limit" itself. I agree that the monster as resource is actually true and maybe we are fine if all we have are monsters, but monster still compete with other cards, namely spell card which efficiency wise is best card type. For monster you can make baseline and tradeoff, such as Summoned Skull and Mobius for example, same resource needed, one gives you bigger body->win against other monster, kill opponent faster, while the other one loses in battle but has some safety from backrow. Meanwhile for Spell, the older one moreover, is harder to make baseline, destroying lowest atk monster and drawing 1 card cost the same. The implication is to make monster more relevant they are in the race with existing spell cards, first it was "let's make a very good boss monster, just a spell card power level with big body", to "let's bring that boss faster even if we sacrifice the deckbuild/slot(yusei deck)", to "yeah we got the boss monster with some engine", into "yeah these monster is boss and engine by themselves". What I truly want to say is the powercreep after 25 years is actually pretty 'natural' and understandable if now feel too much, still props to dev to be able to keep the game this long.
For 'solution' I think Yugioh Rush is at least in nice direction, resetting cardpool, making tribute and special summon feels worth it, Spell has play limitation and cost, etc. I think they are pretty confident with rush as the two latest anime stick with Rush
I think the argument that monsters themselves are resources is slightly undermined given the origin of the game in the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga. Originally, Levels were completely meaningless, mechanically speaking. They were nothing but a plot device, an example of the rule of cool, and a visual shorthand for a "powerful" opponent. That's why the manga's author (bless your legendary heart and may you rest in peace, Takahashi-sensei), didn't put much thought into them: they were overused for games other than Duel Monsters, namely Bakura's Capsule Monsters, Imori's Dragon Cards (referenced by the Yu-Gi-Oh! card "Xing Zhen Hu"), Bakura's D&D-style Monster World and Otogi's DDD; they were just an extraneous stat given how ATK and DEF were already obviously indicative of strength; and they were represented by a bunch of stars you had to count. No sensible real-life card designers would do that, and the new design of Rush Duel cards make loads more sense. The Tribute mechanic was made up much later in the Battle City arc of the manga, although Levels've already been justified with a surprise mechanic which was called Ritual Summon in the earlier Duelist Kingdom arc, but which also was just another plot device tailor-made for the manga and which was utterly impractical in real life.
I can agree with everything you are mentioning since I have played the game since it’s inception, also a quick question Paul I’ve always wondered this. What does the APS stand for in the channel name?
Just fusion summoner five headed dragon, main that felt cool.
The special summon is so normal and the normal summon is so rare that now special summons are the 'normal' ones and the normal summons are the 'special' ones
What is needed is a limit on the number of negates. Maybe 2 or 3 per turn. That way you can negate key things and stop your opponent but nobody can build an unbreakable board as easily going first . You can still put a ton of negates on board and have it make sense, maybe save some for another turn or something . It makes it so when you do negate you have to be careful about it and weather it’s a monster trap or anything like that.
Being only able to negate the activation of one spell, trap and monster effects each once per turn. Handtraps would still be relevant since they negate the effects and unbreakable boards would be near impossible. The best part is there's still good reasons to have multiple Omni negate boss monsters anyways and that's because of things like kaijus so in case if one gets removed well you have another to take it's place.
the lack of a resource system similiar to magic is WHAT I liked about it compared to magic so I could just, play cards.
We already have a trap card that limits summons and it name is...... summon limit, very original right?
I'm so glad I found Domain Format. I get to play with three friends at the same time, and the games pace is much closer to what I remember from older yugioh. It's seriously the most fun I've had playing since the game came out. I want to share this with as many people as possible, If anyone is interested I make content on the format! 😉
DOMAIN FORMAT
60 Main Deck
up to 15 extra deck
Any monster as your deckmaster (with balanced rules)
Deckmaster determines which Types/Attributes/Named Archetype monsters you can play
Nothing is banned
Singleton
Played in 4 player pods
This sounds really interesting, I might have to give it a try with my friends.
@@Eamil This format has taken my LGS by storm. We get pods firing multiple times a week now. It's so fun with friends!
I see Yu Gi Oh as like a master stock but now its got really crazy, but you can't take things from the master stock. Because once you start adding things it get more complex.
The issue isn't the amount of summons really, it's the easy access to generic monsters and engines that every deck can use. Cards like Savage and Barronne are not healthy for the game, and cards need to be less generic. Type locks need to be a thing and monsters need harsher summon conditions.
Also said generic options have no cost as well. that's another issue. I think Altergeist Hexstia is peak link monster design, but the main thing I wanna bring up about hexstia is that it requires a hefty cost of tributing a monster it points to. Most negates these days are completely free and don't even require a discard, let alone a monster to sacrifice. So effects need costs, summon conditions need to be stricter, and type locks should be used more often. I am not a fan of archetypal locks, but type locks are completely fine by me
I feel like yugioh and it's lax resource system is very interesting. For starters it makes a lot of sense. Yugioh started as a simplified parody of magic the gathering that had to fit the rules, an entire game, and a self contained plot in a single chapter of a manga. There wasn't time to create and explain a resource system, it needed to be simplified to just the combat. You throw out a monster, I throw out a monster, they battle, the person who's monster loses gets closer to defeat then rinse and repeat.
Now you give that to a game company and say, "make this a real game" and suddenly you're running into a lot of problems. The level system is an attempt to increase the viability of more cards, since by the normal manga rules, you have no reason to run an 1800 attack monster when a 3000, 2850, 2500, and 2400 attack monster exists. Tributing feels like a very rough solution, but it does solve the problem and cards have clear roles they play leading to more interesting deck building, if not even variation. Unfortunately it's not elegant. The big problem is that it's a huge snowball mechanic. After all in order to tribute summon normally you have to summon or set a monster and then that monster has to survive to your next turn, meaning your opponent was unable to summon a monster that could beat it. In other words, you were already in an advantageous position and now tributing puts you further ahead. To counter this, busted removal needed to be introduced like Raigeki so that players can come back and get a chance to develop their own board for their own tributes.
I think the move to special summon makes sense. I don't think this kind of gameplay could survive forever long term. A resource system that operates as a winmore snowball mechanic is clunky. The interactions it creates aren't very thoughtful. I don't know if I like the current system but I don't think it was unreasonable to go this route.
I want to be clear that I don't think the designers made any mistakes here either. Kazuki Takahashi was making a parody TCG for a manga that captured the feel of card games while being entertaining to read. The card game designers made a playable version of that game that wasn't as trivially easy to solve as the manga made it look. It was still easy to solve, but there are limits to how far they could reasonably deviate without not capturing anything people were reading.
I agree that limiting special summons is NOT the way to fix Yu-Gi-Oh's game balance. If you ever tried playing against certain floodgate cards that negate special summons like: Vanity's Emptiness/Fiend or the Barrier Statues how quickly it takes away what options you had to out your opponent. Generic Spells and Traps aren't as easy to search in this game as monsters are (just look at Left Arm Offering) so your outs to your opponent are mostly in the monster's effect, which mostly requires you to combo into an extra deck monster (which uses special summons).
Maybe a re-train of Breaker the Magical Warrior, that lets you search 1 normal spell card and it would have the same stats, and this wouldn't be too broken as Ash could still stop it.
Could that be a consequence of it being either a one-sided effect (like a Barrier Statue) OR something you can turn on/off at your wish?
Maybe special summons could be tied with LP cost. Free for the first one, but pay I dunno, maybe 500 or 800 for each of the next ones.
I'm sorry for the synchro deck players, I play them too, but nobody enjoys watching us combo for 30 minutes. They simply need to release a card that helps decks that got hurt too much by it afterward.
Power creep will still happen, but games will be shorter. And LP would matter more.
I have a casual deck I shred the meta with but you know what still pisses me off about it, the uploads on my channel of the replays are 90% my opponent summoning, activating effects & 10% me using my well crafted deck, that's what pisses me off the most, I won the duel but why is all the air time just of my opponent building their board, of which I break, I hate that so much words can't describe it, time is precious, stop wasting it using decks you never built on your own
The special summon problem all started with chaos monsters haha
The long chains of (special) summons is the main reason I have absolutely no interest in getting back into Yugioh. Unlimited special summons, cards summoning themselves from GY, effects that summon cards from the (extra) deck, etc make summoning not only monsters, but SPECIFIC monsters trivially easy and, for me, completely boring. It’s like if I’m playing poker and need a 2❤ and I could just look through the deck and pull a 2❤. Similarly with fusion material going from specific monsters to more general ones.
If a Troop Dragon is destroyed in battle and special summons another Troop Dragon from the deck, I’m fine with that because it’s 1 card/monster and doesn’t start a chain of summoning 5+ monsters and sending cards back and forth to GY to extend the combo.
Konami probably doesn’t care since I haven’t played the TCG in almost 20 years. At most some Duel Links. The only thing that would make me even consider getting back into it would be a hard summoning limit. Also ideally moving away from search-summons from hand and/or GY. For me, if you can just get whatever card you want from the deck so long as you have the card for it and aren’t restricted by it being in hand/field/GY, might as well not even bother shuffling the deck since you can essentially get whatever card you want at anytime.
Obviously never going to happen, but my 2 yugiboomer cents.
Special Summon are cool, the issue is circular chaining which infuriates me. eg Summon Monster A, A has effect to Special Summon Monster B, Monster C (in hand) has effect to Special Summon itself when B is on field. Then player Link / XYZ / Sync Summons Monster D. Monster D has effect to Special Summon B & C from Graveyard, A has effect to Special Summon E if it is in Graveyard. Player then Link / XYZ / Sync Summons Monster F using D (if Link/Sync) or B+C+E which sends them back to Graveyard which again triggers effect and loop continues. Some decks these mechanics are ridiculous and it has nothing to do with a players ability and does NOT speed up game (to contrary it slows game to a crawl, worse then most stall dex)
Summon limits might help a little, but I still say deck builds should be monitored and how many of certain cards be limited in your deck.
If everything you use is set to 2-3, then there is no restrictions or limitations.
Summon limitations hurt Xyz, Link and Synchro decks disproportionately. Ritual and Fusion decks can get away with the same results as them with one spell activation.
I think a better solution would be to nerf the power ceiling of decks and restrict the accessibility of the most powerful cards to specific types, attributes and/or archetypes to prevent the prevalence of identical end boards.
Greed, addiction and enabling are what have driven YGO into the ground.
At about 4 minutes in, you mentioned using tribute summons for a more powerful creature. I played old Yu-Gi-Oh a lot, and fell out after synchro. Came back and now Link is this huge thing, and to me, it seems so bad... I've seen sacrifices of *four* monsters for a creature with less than 3000 attack, and abilities that seem... kind of low power, all things considered. Why would you ever sacrifice two 1600-1800 atk monsters for a blue card with 1500? It's so foreign, and links just never seemed like the right play (unless going for Access code)
This was kind of a side tangent, but your video just reminded me of that notion with a good simple example. Thanks.
Honest, Special Summoning was kind of both. It made the game fast as heck, which is great because I like fast. But it's also the cause of a looot of problems because... Well, just look at Master Duel's Ranked Duels. I think I'll just stick to fighting the AI. At least I know the AI can't BS me with anything worse than RNGeezus having a sadistic laugh. I'm still laughing at how I got OTK'd by Dinomists double boosted by Limiter Removal. That was so stupid and I loved it.
Special summoning is a great mecanic, but it used to be a net loss to preform them 90% of the time. Now every tom dock and hairy can preform a special summon or search. I honestly think that special summoning should no longer incoorperate every other summon type. RITUAL, LINK, SYNCHRO, XYZ, FUSION, AND PENDULUM summoning should all be reformatted to be their own summoning type called Extra summoning. Special summoning in turn should be regulated to summoning from hand deck and graveyard and should be limited in a way ie can only special summon from a hand, deck, or you have to pay LP to special summon. Make your Lifepoints your Special summoning resource. This would make burn decks super powerful but u can easily limit burn cards. I hate playing Yugioh now cause unless i draw a hand trap at game start i just get to watch a solitaire gane for a quarter of my match time which is ridiculous. Special summoning needs a cost, there has to be a risk for it because everything is is useing it. Life Points currently don't matter, they havent for a long time. You only 1 need lifepoint to win. Make that the resource for special summons and change extra deck and ritual summons their own category called Extra summoning since they are limited to the 15 u have or the combo pieces from your deck.
One of the things that's so crazy in this game is not... The lack of a resource system, but... The amount of card advantage someone gains while comboing off. Sure, they don't (usually) end their combo with 5+ cards in hand. But they absolutely do get a ton of free cards, often ending up with 7+ cards on the table, some still in hand and some text in the GY. Ever watch a D/D(/D) or Phantom Knights player go off? Look at a card like Denglong. Sure it's banned in TCG, but it IS still legal in OCG: In a fairly-real sense you get +3 cards for comboing through this guy. Sure, sure, it doesn't cost zero cards to make, and it's one of two components of whatever Synchro you make with it. But still, it's a lot closer to +3 net cards than it should be! But even without cards individually as crazy as Denglong, that amount of card advantage just sneaks into other combo paths. The lack of limitations on what you can do means that any incidental +card effects just... Really add up. What would happen if almost every card that searched for a card/drew a card etc. only put the card in your hand/on the field at end of turn?
Special Summons not having their own hard limit has absolutely taken something that used to be niche but kind of cool into something absurd. Look at the Adventure Engine, which can not only get a negate and bounce on board, it doesn't even use your Normal Summon, which the cards explicitly expect you not to do by making it so only your Special Summoned monsters can activate effects. Avramax is absurd because it can be brought out as easily as Numeron Network -> summon materials to Link Summon away, its ATK boost works against all Special Summoned monsters, while the only cards I can think of that can actually beat over it with a Normal Summon are like... the god cards? Blue Eyes crashes without a boost, and strong-but-vanilla cards like Blue-Eyes Ultimate are still Special Summoned.
At this point, the Normal Summon isn't even the resource anymore, because everything can be Special Summoned from the hand or deck, or discarded from the hand for effect, or banished from GY for effect, and still get bodies on board to defend yourself or even negate more effects. Arguably the monsters themselves aren't resources, because you have the likes of Thunder Dragons, Floo, or DPE that just get their stuff back on their next turn because you either didn't go first, didn't draw into Called By/Imperial Iron Wall, or did draw into them and got Duster'd at the start of the turn.
It also got bad by having negates on Monsters. Negates used to only be on traps, and also had a besides-being-a-trap-card-you-had-to-set cost like paying life points, discarding cards, or like Magic Drain lets your opponent discard a card to ignore the effect. Stardust Dragon is just as guilty as DPE for its recursive interruption, but at least it was a 2500 ATK that could be beaten over by a Goyo or Blue-Eyes, or have its nonsense negated by a Solemn, Fiendish Chain, Synchro-hate cards, or actually preventing the opponent from keeping the cards on board to summon it like hitting a Tuner with Raigeki Break, or a Call of the Haunted combo extender with MST. Now you have Red Reboot, Impermanence, and Evenly Matched that just get dumped from the hand
Ironically for the 5D's anime, Z-ONE was completely right about Synchros making the game too fast and ruining things. Infernities were absurd (and should rightly have been a wake-up call for Konami), people could go into Turn-1 Quasars, Goyo was the new Summoned Skull, Tempest Magician FTK existed, all of this after just managing to shake away Tele-DAD. Pretty much every problem deck's issues can be traced to either utilizing too many Special Summons to handle, or the Special Summoned monsters had an effect that was too strong, especially for the cost that's put into it.
Though now I'd argue the main issue is Fusion monsters that don't really need Polymerization or even your own monsters. Sure, Contact Fusion was trash because it kills your card at the end of the turn, and no one talks about Gladiator Beasts because they need a Battle Phase just to die to Ash, but Super Poly was hella banned for a while because it's just unfair to play against, and now Albaz is basically a searchable Super Poly on legs. Slightly smaller issue is just being allowed to remove your opponent's ability to play without any way to react, like Kaijus or removing field zones. Also, cards with materials/limitations that are either too light or just waste printer ink so you can't splash them into everything, like Halq requiring any two monsters as long as one is a Tuner, Verte only caring if the monsters have an effect, or Tri-Brigade limiting you to three entire monster types to splash.
So... I only started playing MTG recently, and their "mana" system seems like an interesting thing. Imagine if YGO players could always Normal summon 1/turn, but could only special summon as many monsters as the turn count, or could only end their turn with as many special summoned monsters as the turn count. Would absolutely slow the game down, yes, but You couldn't really end your turn-1 on a full-field with 3 negates to interrupt your opponent, so both players would already have a way to play a "full turn." I know people play the decks they do cause most will have an archetype-specific "unfair combo" which they love to do, but with a system like limiting Special Summons to turn count somehow, both players could have a full turn or 2 to play before the player who goes first inevitably ramps up
It'd be great if there was a cap to the number of Special Summons from the deck, GY, and hand (separately). Sure, there's the Summon Limit trap card, but why not cap it at 5 or so?
This would also help solve these ridiculous 30 minute plays that has become a running joke in Master Duel for example.
First off, I love content like this! Additionally, the way to fix yugioh today would be to limit additional special/normal summons to the turn. So turn 1 gives each player 1 additional summon, turn 2 gives 2 additional, and so on (Like the mana systems in other card games). Stops either player from full combo-ing into a ton of negates ( a big issue players have with not being able to play the game; Konami is aware of this just look at the cards on the banlist ) and allows for more diverse deck building ( less three of handtraps that people usually load up on especially for turn 1 ). Today, its either negation boards or big boards that cause games to end after 3 turns max. Yugioh IS fun, but the relentless SS-combo-archetypes is a deterrent to new players and the occasional Tier 0 formats just make the game inaccessible to most - > both of these issues can be resolved with a turn-based, scaling NS/SS system.
I don't think Special Summons are the problem. I think Konami made too many Extra Deck cards and then made Xyz and Link monsters way too fast. Fusion monsters at least required two or more materials and a spell card. Synchros were faster but you still had to have a specific monster and you had to match the levels.
Then along comes Xyz. There's no really specific requirements you just need two monsters of the same level and bam there's your Extra monster. Same with Links. I know individual cards have different requirements but they're still overall incredibly simple to meet. To make matters worse Link monsters come with a built in shortcut with ther Link Rating and stronger Xyz monsters can be summoned by using weaker Xyz as material.
I don't really know how they can fix this but my first thought is a limit on how many Extra Deck summons you can make of one of each per turn. So that's one Fusion, one Synchro, one Xyz and one Link a turn. At least that might slow things down and allow for some actual back-and-forth gameplay again.
So TH-cam question, lately I been trying to watch the ads so creators can get ad cents, i grew up with a tv back in the day and commercial are honestly a normal thing. But I was wondering do you have control on what TH-cam puts up for ads? I’m just letting you know I just watched a Chik fil a ad that was 6-7 minutes long 😂 So, do you make more in longer ads or does TH-cam pay you all the same for a 15 second ad? Cause I think they should pay you more for longer ads in my opinion. Anyways, Cheers and happy thanksgiving everyone.
Hello Paul. Big fan of APS, not a big fan of commenting, but as an aspiring game developer I thought I should comment on this one because it intrigues me.
(While I’m here, I’ll just say that the Rare Hunters Series is one of the greatest things on TH-cam, please continue it!)
First though, I would like to respectfully disagree that special summoning is Yugioh’s defining mechanic. I say that it is the extra deck, a toolbox from which one can draw on at any moment to gain answers to board states, cards, or create your own board state or game winning play. Among card games that I’ve played, of which there are many, Yugioh’s extra deck is incredibly unique and especially in modern Yugioh, game defining.
But you can disagree with me, it’s not like this is a black or white question with an easy answer. That aside, let’s get to the reason I’m here.
I do think I know what the probem is in modern Yugio; It is a combination of two things which while on thier own are fine in terms of card game mechanics, when combined they create a problem, at least in my opinion. The first is that yugioh cards have no associated cost except what is written on the card. Yes the normal summon is the closest thing to a hard cost in Yugioh, but realistically you can build a deck around these ‘costs’ such that you can bypass them or make thier interference minor at worst.
The second thing, which when combined with the first creates the problem, is card searching. As stated, I’ve played a lot of other card games, and Yugioh’s card searching philosophy is by far the most broad. It creates a legel of consistency (especially when you factor in the extra deck) that is unrivaled by other card games. And just to be clear, I define searching as the ability to add cards to a board or hand from a location other than the hand (such as the graveyardm the deck, the extra deck, etc). Allow me to illustrate what is going on here by using Magic as an example.
Let’s say I play a card called Idyllic Tutor, a somewhat good card in Magic. By paying 3 effective mana, I can search my deck for any Enchantment card and put it in my hand (Think Continuous Spell in Yugioh). What has happened? I have gone +0 in terms of cards but -3 in terms of mana. Thus, there is a cost associated with doing this move, and because mana in Magic is everything, this means that I cannot do this move indefinitely in a turn because I will run out of mana eventually.
Now let’s go back to Yugioh. I play Aluber The Jester, as a normal summon, which lets me add say, Branded Opening to my hand. What has happened this time? I have gone +1 in terms of cards… but really, no other cost. This means I can use that Branded Opening to search again, and I can fusion summon which lets me get other cards, and then I can activate some of these effects in the graveyard which let’s me get other cards added to my hand / board, and it just keeps going. Because I can, in theory, play these cards infinitely provided my hand is good enough and my opponent doesn’t interrupt, the only real limitation I have is the number of zones of the battlefield, the Once Per Turn effects, and the limit of 7 cards in hand at end phase.
That is the issue in modern yugioh (in my opinion): the fact that you can keep searching cards from places other than the hand, and moves like this cost virtually nothing (since a good player can build around such archetypal restrictions). When these two elements combine, it can and sometimes will, lead to such consistency that a Yugioh player can do anything they want in a turn barring interruptions. As proof of this concept, I see Ishizu Tear. Why is milling 10 in a turn so good? Because you are able to take cards from another location (the grave) and do things with them for again, virtually no cost.
Power Creep being what it is, this searching effect will only get more and more prominant over time unless there’s something in the future I am unaware of. Because things are already so consistent, Konami has to either maintain the consistency while balancing effects, or increase the consistency, which can lead to Ishizu Tear.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk on game design X/ Hope everyone that reads this has a good day!
A resource system would only make the game slower. It wouldn't solve power creep at all. Just look at MTG: they have a resource system with "colored lands" and WotC broke their own game by adding "double colored lands"! For many people, this is breaking the game to a fundamental level!
I think a lot of these problems could be solved if they limited the extra deck. Maybe only three of each type (link,xyz, fusion, synchro)? Or limit the number of cards to around 6? There’s too many cards available and the games are so short that you almost never run out of boss monsters.
They should have made more cards that say “you can’t special summon monsters, except for “whatever the archetype specializes in summoning” for the rest of this turn”. It would make decks and engines less splashable but it would control decks to the point where something like Tear can’t really splash Spright and play through 5 negates in 1 turn. And I’m not saying that Tear is the only problem deck that does this because I think Tear is “fair” for what it does, but it’s the pure swarm and recover aspect of Tear and Spright that make them almost impossible to stop without hoping your opponent bricked.
There’s not much improvisation in YuGiOh anymore. Duels are so fast, that you don’t see much strategic gameplay. We wouldn’t be able to delete all of the super strong monsters from the game; so maybe setting limits could change how YuGiOh is played. I think the end goal is to be able to attract new players in because the deck building shows their personality, and the duels are fun and exhilarating.
When spectating a duel, in today’s format, you often just yawn because the games are so predictable.
That’s my take on today’s game.
Let me know what you think!
The thing that changed yugioh forever was synchro (then xyz and link) summoning, the ability to add functionality to your deck from the extra deck is why yugioh is so absurd
Edit: you no longer require cards that are designed around accessing the extra deck, its now just whenever you feel like
Edit 2: possible solutions - you cant close pandoras box, so special/extra summons cannot really be 'removed', instead konami needs to start adding a way to respond when the opponent performs a certain number of special summons in one turn. Either through a new mechanic, or new hand traps
Special summons are fine in my opinion, I think the actual problem is archetype specific support that mimics older staple cards that give negates or destruction. I don't mind an archetype doing specific things but when they get a card that flips and stops you from doing something or popping something because you have a certain name or type seems to be the problem I see. If an engine can spam 2-4 monsters cool, but if it ends up spamming monsters searching a spell or trap that can take away half or an entire turn seems like it's choking out the game in my opinion
Special summons absolutely should be capped. "Oh, but that will buff some decks and neuter others." Yeah I know; that's what balancing does.
There's an easy way to limit Special Summoning without crippling certain decks by making it a soft limit. 6 summons per turn (any combination of Normal and Special) and for any further Summon you have to pay life points for, which get more excessive with every additional one.
Would have the added benefit of not only restricting Summoning as a whole, it would also shuffle around power (mass summons of several monster in a single Special Summon become more valuable in a high risk, high reward way) and more importantly would give a designated role to burn and life gain strategies. Right now gifting your opponent a few thousand life points only matters in the most rarest of cases. Would be very different if it allowed them to perform additional Special Summons.
Would also be a nice callback to the Egyptian Shadow games, where summoning was dependent on the power of the player. You effectively need to perform sacrifices to avoid overexertion.
Maybe number I g the monster zones and only allowing the amount of turns to go by dictate how many zones you can you to normal/special summon; like on turn o e you can only use the the middle o e (along with extra more stern zone). Then on second turn you can use the first and second zones along with the extra monster zone. And so on. Hope that made sense.
No. Do you mean restricting what columns you can summon to based on the current turn number?
@@emilianoflcn Something to that effect, I know it isn't perfect though just an idea when watching the video.
Special Summon RUINED yugioh. This game was t meant to have the nonstop swarming and solitaire style play. It’s a card game back and forth.
They need to implement a permanent summon limit
Answer: Monster Effects cannot be activated the turn you summon them.
*This would slow the game down and bring back Trap Cards.
for me yugioh got ruined by link and syncro summon,and the fact that their is over 10 000 cards just kills it for me ,( ive never watched or will watch zexel,5d,vains)
I loved the game when i was younger, mostly for the strategies that it had. When i stopped playing, it was in the GX era, and now it is literally a mountain to get into again. My biggest complaint is the negations that the player has in hand. Back in the day, spells/traps were the biggest punish, with the exception of some monsters. Now you literally can't play if you don't go first and that takes all the fun out of Yu-Gi-Oh. It would have been nice if the game was focused on who makes the strongest monster and has a good backrow to protect it from the opponent's monsters and backrow. Similar to present day Yu-Gi-Oh but without the intervention of the opponent.
There should not be any kind of limit on the number of times you can special summon. Ideally, Konami should balance monsters themselves - no monster floodgates, no free Omni negates, etc.
an omni negate is fine. However, the card should be a level 12 synchro that requires multiple synchro monsters for its summon.
Make each extra deck mechanic have some kind of flavor.
Fusion monsters make more fusions.
Synchros negate.
XYZ monster destroy or bounce cards.
Link Monsters gain effects only when co-linked.
I think we could easily fix yugioh by just having a hard limit of 2 different monsters being able to activate their effects during the opponents turn on the first turn. Example.
You are going first. Your opponent can activate their archetype handtrap turn 1, and the monster thats summoned with that handtrap can use it's effect. Turn swaps to player 2 after you summoned your 5 quasar/cosmic blazar dragon board. Only 2 of them can activate their negates. After 2 use their effects, the rest cannot use their effects. The monsters that have been chosen to use their effects can use all of their effects as many times per turn as possible. This change would not constrain any current deck strategies, because they can all operate perfectly fine under this rule change.
It's only when it comes to how many times you can disrupt your opponent during your first turn where the restriction comes in. After the first turns for each player has passed, you can put 50 negates on the board, each player had their chance to advance their strategy with acceptable levels of disruption. This would reign in all decks who specialize in summoning many disruptive monsters, and encourage people to play more spells and traps because they can no longer shut the opponent out of the game with monster disruptions.
There are probably some fringe cases where a decks is kinda ruined, but we lived through Master Rule 4, we can definitely live through this.
The real issue is effects have no resource most of the time. Great example.
Barron de fleur, Omni negate that has no resource cost plus a card destruction that has no resource cost. If you actually had to use resources to activate it's effects you'd actually have to think about WHAT you want to negate each turn if you actually WANT to negate becauae it would cost you your resources. So you might not be able to activate a different effect later.
Yu-Gi-Ohs lack of a resource system because let's be honest the monstes aren't really a resource if they were you would care about actually tributing/saceificing them to the graveyard you wouldn't literally be sacrificing HALF your deck to make plays.
Speed Spells.
That solves most issues.
Ban floodgates.
I was still surprised you didn't talk about synchros.