Dr K, as a 72yo Westerner who's relied on the Vedantic Upanishads and Gita for philosophical and spiritual support nearly 50 years now (and a frequent viewer of your own channel), the way you always model blending ("Western") scientific method and Dharmic wisdom inspires me profoundly. You give me faith that the human species is, in fact, evolving toward a higher synthesis capable of supporting first a global - and eventually a galactic - survival strategy. Thank you for always sharing both your mind and your compassionate heart with us all!
Treat this comment as a petition for Dr Mike and K to create a consistent podcast. The amount of scientific and medical knowledge and nuance transferred in a complex but also comprehensive way is frankly amazing. The fact that is readily available for anyone to listent to is certainly one of the greatest testaments to the power of the internet
I think Dr. K's commentary on "time" is underappreciated. Mental illness destroyed YEARS of my life, interpersonal relationships, and delayed my education and career. And I had help and resources that people definitely don't.
Same! Reminds me of how hard higher education was for me, being extremely depressed but not realizing it and thinking I must be just a bad, lazy person because of that
Yeah man. I love to think of all illness (mental, physical, or anything you might believe in live spiritual etc) as time it takes away. Years lost, if you will. My girlfriend has chronic pain and neurological conditions that prevent her from regular movement, interpretation, learning, etc. how many years of “regular” (average) life will she lose through her life. One example is she spends 90% of her time focusing on school. She only does part time (she does well, high 90 average) but she works as much or more than full timers because she effectively has less hours in the day as everything takes longer. I think the world is moving towards accepting the idea that illness affect us in this way, but it’s a long way from perfect.
Man, imagine a world where people knew how to discuss and debate their own viewpoints as well as LISTEN to others views, in a constructive, self honest way like this. I think so much of our social-cultural conflicts are because people don't know how to debate and listen.
we need to have dialogues to understand each other not debate, debate is mostly just trying to prove your point/opinion which always brings out conflict
I think the main problem of this podcast is one could conclude only watching this that Dr k is Ayurvedic-centric which is largely not the case (which of course he stated peripherally a few times), merely more open to Ayurvedic perspectives than most western doctors, including recognizing its strengths. However, while Dr Mike’s exposure to Ayurvedic practices is likely influenced by those who are taking advantage of its lack of RCT and such and making bold statements with no evidence (the “woowoo” people, not Dr Mike) , I think his expertise allows for a conversation with Dr K I’ve never seen before. This is a conversation that is unbelievably relevant to our time. I respect both Drs so much in their approach to medicine. Respect to those who can have differing perspectives and have an open conversation!
@@Ryan-to1pr ikr i was reading some comments and i was like wait a minute, im not sure if Dr mike is really pushing back an ideology that Dr K has, merely an idea that Dr K can talk upon
I believe that some holistic medicine is beneficial. I think that the general public does not comprehend and can easily overdose or underdose themselves. I also think they can mistake plants and create health issues. Therefore, if it is vague and not completely measurable, I bow out gracefully. The people I have experienced that are holistic are paranoid and have serious mental issues that make their behavior and speaking scary. They almost threaten us if we don't come over to their dark side. So I avoid these diets because I don't know how much is affected by the diet and how they were before they started these fads. So I am intrigued by this doctor who is calm and collected. I would be open to listening to him. I may not change, but he is calmly and rationally talking about his side. I definitely will listen to his story. I am not looking to live a long life. My DNA is a ticking time bomb. But I won't mind eating better while I live my life.
It's not real life. It's to get viewer engagement (which I'm sad I contributed to) so I'm out. The kids say whoosh so I think that applies. You know because I'm whooshing away. I think.
Dr. Mike stressing me out at the start here haha. Shout out Dr. K for his patience and bigger shout out to Dr. Mike for opening up once he noticed himself being closed, rather than getting more defensive. Truly big of him and I hope to emulate that in my life a long with Dr. Ks empathy and self awareness
Summed my thoughts up perfectly. Well said. Kudos to both. This is how deep and meaningful discussions should be had. Man if we all took the example of these two and implemented it in our everyday discussions we as a society would have vastly better outcomes regardless of setting.
@@a.k.8719 If you aren't openminded, you aren't assessing the thing and determining if it is scientific and measurable. You're dismissing it out of hand because of a preconceived notion of what it is, prejudging it based on the source, or otherwise allowing a bias to prevent you from engaging with it in a meaningful way. Being openminded doesn't mean turning your bullshit meter off
None of my friends are eager to have open conversations like this. This video is refreshing. Debating is a honest and effective way to have two people walk away at the end of a conversation with valuable and relevant information about something interesting to both parties
I feel like you should find new friends. Your friends should accept you and your opinions without having to get too heated. If you can't be civil and analytical with one another, how do you know when they're lying or telling you the truth?
@@pal8492 debate =/= bad. I think you misunderstand what a debate is. If anything, having friends that are so fragile that you cannot challenge some of their beliefs is a red flag.
My girlfriend (a big Dr. K fan) and I (a big Dr. Mike fan) have been fighting about Ayurvedic/Homeopathic/Eastern medicine for a long time. I used to get overly focused on the "scammyness" and she would always get focused on the "Western medicine just hasnt investigated the mechanisms enough"... but we wouldnt necessarily see the other view point well enough/technically enough. This video really helped close the gap between us on this topic. Fascinating discussion!
Just like with the focus of Ayurveda vs Western medicine the scams of Western medicine are at a population level vs scams of Ayurveda at an individual level
As someone who has received Ayurveda treatment and someone from Sri Lanka. It is much different from Homeopathy where from what I remember is really diluted to the point that whatever medicine you take is just water
What I love about Dr.K is that he's so direct but respectful. I've learned so much about how to communicate better with people on my personal life by just watching him. I'm a very direct person but the way he phrases his statements and tone is one that I am stealing with integrity because it is so clear when one is prepared and understands their subject, it becomes so much easier to communicate simply and tailor communication to the audience.
I absolutely love how there are times where a question is asked or an explanation is given, and the listener stops and pauses for some seconds, truly thinking critically, and then asking follow up. You both are brilliant, and I admire your curiosity and consideration in this incredibly healthy conversation where we all, including you both of course, can learn so much. Thanks!
Not to mention how when the other person doesn't quite understand their answer, they make it a point to reframe the answer by simplifying it to the basics.
@@mattnic001 Indeed, that is something you learn on your day in academia. Nobody will bat an eye when you stop to think before you speak, but you totally will earn the ire of people if you speak out without thinking thoroughly.
some do. my wife and i fight like this. it makes a massively positive impression on our 12 year old my parents did not fight like this to your point tho haha
I try to fight like this with my parents. But they dont really respond to arguments with arguments but with faked manipulative emotions. Its fun to then discuss this with my brother who does the same thing.
I'm a Skeptic and a fan of Dr K. I done some of his coaching, have his book and coaching materials, and watched tons of videos both on his HG channel and with other content providers, and meditate on the daily for years now. I've always had a problem with his "woo woo" stuff (I have a problem with most woo-woo stuff) but this conversation has been the most in-depth conversation I've seen about his Ayurveda position. He's actually challenged to answer hard questions, and defend his position from a western and eastern perspective. This has given me a better understanding of his position and he sounds a lot less mystical/superstitious to me after watching the video. I really appreciate Dr Mike pushing back pretty hard on some of Dr K's positions, and helping get some clarity around how and why he thinks Ayurveda is worth anything. Thank you Dr Mike and Dr K for this sit down. I really learned a lot and valued this exchange. THIS is how you have a productive conversation when views do not align.
Buddy, the field of preparing extracts from certain plants and animal products to make medicines is called Auyrveda in India. Are there frauds? sure, is Ayurveda better than western medicine in general sense? Absolutely not. But is Ayurveda worth researching using modern scientific techniques in the hopes of getting medicines which may yield better results in certain cases ? 100 %.
@@adityabhattacharyya8727 With more research Ayurveda can easily have more benefits than western medicines. Big universities like Nalanda were demolished by mslim invaders. Humanity lost a lot of knowledge right there.
You can tell Dr. Mike's a boxer, because he was pushing Dr. K to the ropes. And Dr. K also has some mad ropa-dope. Dr. K also disarmed Dr. Mike quite well, regarding the clear bias towards the undertone of "I dislike snakeoil". Quite frankly, one of the best debates I've ever seen. No. Not debates, because debates are full of tricks and manipulations to get the audience on your side. This is, pure and simple, outright philosophy and pursuit of truth. The most beautiful conversation I've heard in many years. Most people simply fight to fight and to defend their position to the death. The mutual seeking of truth is just....a pure delight, and it is especially warming to my much-in-need soul. Gratitude to you both. Keep up the great work!
Dr K does this for a living, but he makes it look effortless. You're right that it was such a beautiful pursiut of truth AFTER Dr Mike let go of his ego and could listen honestly
The way Dr. K stopped the interview/debate to ask why Dr. Mike was so confrontational was very professional and kept the converstaion on track. Dr. Mike had walls and Dr. K dismantled them to keep an open mind, and keep the interview on the rails. Class act from both, and good on Dr. Mike to recognize the bias.
Yep this is one of the rare podcasts with deep nuances & respectfully explaining each other differences in opinions than just agreeing with each other person unquestionably. 30:40 And Dr.k pronounced patanjalis yoga Sutras,yoga,ayurveda,Rog (different Indian words) right without an American accent while having his rest of the conversation in his regular accent, that's some awesome control on language (regardless of ethnicity & that he knows about Ayurveda).
25:53 I just love the absolute maturity of the conversation here. The practice of trying to understand what the person is trying to say, acknowledging, "oh wait, they are on the same side as me, but using different language", but also praising the other that their framing/usage of words are better to illustrate the same point. So awesome
I've run into this problem where two people are saying the same thing and actively agreeing with each other but are unable to see that they are because they're using different words.
@@KLil37 you've worded what I wanted to say but couldn't figure out how. All I could come up with was "this interview sounds like me trying to discuss anything with my mother." 😂
That interaction was an example of why I love these two. Dr. K probing Dr. M to clarify where Mike's passion was coming from is why I love Dr. K so much.
yea this talk was so good all the way through! Dr. Mike agreed on a lot more than he thought at the beginning, but that really worked for the interview. it caused him to ask questions, which prompted Dr. K go more in depth on Ayurveda
Great convo! Crazy that Dr. Mike compared 1900s CE Europe with 4000s BC Indus Valley and seems to miss the historical context but he's obviously intelligent and respectful. Dr. K has been my dude for his braided systems approach
Ideally, yes. The unfortunate reality is that, both parties here are very empathetic, and aren't interested in measuring their dicks and trying to "win". With most people, sacrificing eloquence and maturity for something like ad-hominem fallacy. :/
Yeah It can get uncomfortable but thats better than it getting spiteful or even violent. Its not hard to put your pride aside when you have a healthy mindset
This was such an invigorating conversation to listen to! It’s hard to find a podcast where the guest and host discuss and challenge ideas with this level of intellectual integrity. The honesty about the flaws in clinical practice from both parties is also so valuable. So much respect for both Drs. Mike and K! Thank you!
I have terrible mental health struggles, and what doc K said about the depressive episode costing you in life is real. i lost my job, my gf, my home, my pet, and my car. its hard
@@kanishakmadaan1Seems to me that the weird reply came from a place where that person has none of that and maybe tried to say, look at me, I never had that in the first place or I’ve been trying to get that - be glad that you had it at least, unlike some of us. Or maybe they’re just a troll or a bully.
@@Yasqo ohh , thanks🙏 , didn't think about it like this , you might be right , it feels like the most appropriate reason , ig the silly use of skull emoji confused me a bit
1:57:30 you can see the exact moment Dr.Mike realises that he's speaking with someone who's whole career journey was about helping the people who need it. Dr.K is a true diamond to humanity.
I can usually listen to a podcast in the background. But I constantly had to rewind, pause, think, and focus really hard on this one. I started listening to this at 6AM and it really got my brain going for the rest of the day! We need more guests like him!
Dr. K's lectures helped me realize I probably had ADHD and the depth of detail in them and his interviews allowed me to trace back my life circumstances and where and how I suffered. After that I was able to create an accurate history for my doctor to look over and he referred me to a psychiatrist who did a full analysis to conclude I have innatentive adhd. I have made staggering advances in my life, behavior and perspectives because of this man.
I love how when they ask each other questions, it's always in the context of understanding the other person's *position* rather than a questioning of the others *character.* Then, they share clarifying statements to make sure that they understand the other's position properly before potentially challenging it. This is a great showcase of the genuine respect, empathy, and self-awareness it takes to have important yet difficult dialogue. These guys are incredible examples!
I agree. This is how a conversation is supposed to be conducted. If only politicians were as emotionally and intellectually mature and grounded. And able to shelve their egos,like these two.
I don't think that actually could have easily gotten very dark very quickly. Is what I saw was a narcissistic physical health doctor. Question everything through a completely scientific lens in a way that was actually quite shall we say arrogant. Where do his thoughts come from he could not want think in a way that was not physical. This means that he's falling off of a false axiomatic truth. Which is that he is treating that everything is physical as an axiomatic. Basically in this instance there is no spiritual side is not an established axiomatic truth nothing in science can be truly axiomatic outside of math. So he's treating there is no spiritual side as if it is axiomatic mathematical truth and does not need to be questioned. My question for Dr Mike is can you really ask yourself if a spiritual thing or things outside of science that we currently know also exist and affect us. Can you bring it to your in your ideology but maybe there is something more than what you currently know scientifically. Also can you Doctor Mike ask yourself if there's something more to your brain than neurons firing. Because there's something missing to neurons firing. Because we most people in consciousness research I'm starting to find things that are not neurons firing.
As a British Indian who grew up in an Indian spiritual school, I practiced meditation and breathing practices but eventually transitioned into major scepticism about anything spiritual since adulthood. This conversation was incredibly informative and therapeutic to see both sides of perspectives represented. Thank you for reminding me to remain respectfully open-minded while still asking the right questions
A similar thing happened to me, I hated every 'guru' for a while, but after some hardship I used some methods that were taught, (meditation and avoiding certain foods) and now I think if you find something useful take it but don't be blinded.
This is interesting. I grew up in Chinese martial arts environment with Qi Gong practitioners making regular appearances. The result was that the familiarity with this world and the colourful characters that occupy this space have made me very sceptical about the practices themselves. Is it for similar reasons in your case that you have developed the scepticism?
Ngl, the middle section of this conversation stressed me out-but I’m still glad I listened to it. I follow both of these channels and I love seeing professionals debate nuance in their field of expertise. Giving ground, rephrasing for clarity, and even changing perspectives increases credibility in my book. I think we all benefitted from this discussion.
for a Harvard trained medical doctor i was genuinely confused by his willingness to practice alternative medicine in private practice but I'm also pleasantly surprised by his brutal honesty regarding the effectiveness and lack of research. not exactly sure what to take away from this conversation but I guess if his patients are satisfied and improving then who am I to judge. Also, I do think psychiatry is one of the few medical specialties where "alternative" medicine and treatments are worth being explored. Every single other medical specialty has made significant advancements in their ability to treat pathologies related to their domain via modern medicine besides psychiatiry. we have a growing mental health crisis in the world by all objective metrics and if modern medicine is incapable of treating the mind, perhaps alternative medicine or a mix of both is worth considering.
I think we can learn about how certain practices (religious, cultural, non scientific) can have positive effects on people's health although we shouldn't throw away empirical medicine and we need to learn to discern what works and doesn't. It's sounds simple, but it's something of great complexity.
Before earning his medical degree, he left school to become a monk in India. After some time doing that, he figured it wasn't for him but learned a lot and would later go on to get his Harvard degree after working there. Really interesting history he has uploaded somewhere I am sure. So it was more so the flip of what you said by applying what he learned as a monk to what he later learned as a psychiatrist. And importantly, that he saw it worked.
It's important to differentiate between "does not work" and "does not have enough testing to prove that it works". They are pretty much equivalent in most conversations, but not always. A lot of "traditional medicine" is either based on tradition-based "practices/recipes" or just equating correlation to causation. For example, people have been smearing certain plant pastes onto wounds to "speed up healing" since the Stone Age, or maybe even before that. No one knew why it worked. They just knew that it worked. It's not until "alchemy" that people discovered the properties of certain naturally occurring or artificially created materials. And it's not until "chemistry" that people isolated and recombined these into drugs and supplements, some of which are still not government-approved, just tolerated. Ayurveda (speaking specifically about the non-scammers) has a huge "proof problem". People "know" that it works because empirically it's been working for thousands of years. But this empirical testing was never recorded, and the actual expected interactions are not scientifically tested. We don't know what the edge cases are, or how to tailor Ayurvedic medicine. Ayurveda also does not have very well-established diagnostic tools or mechanisms, which prevents it from being its own ecosystem. Scammers can exploit this "proof problem" by relying on people's faith in "natural remedies", which they can simply say "don't need proof because we've been doing it this way for a thousand years". Until Ayurveda can undergo rigorous scientific analysis to not just explain itself but also devise new interactions and methods, it remains a domain where scammers are a plague. In the end, Ayurveda is also a cautionary tale for "modern medicine" and the pharmaceutical industry. Don't try to shut out knowledge and innovation, and don't try to get away with badly tested medical practices and pseudoscience. Once the science behind medicine is closed off, people will start relying on faith in medicine and doctors. And faith is extremely easy for scammers to exploit.
If I can add my own drop in the bucket. When I first talked to Psychiatry/Psychologist I was treated like a check list or just another body that was malfunctioning. Listening to Dr.K, even though it’s disclaimer not medical advice. He talks to the mind/soul/ego/you differently. And it helped me feel better, more relaxed and more like a person, rather than a checklist.
This was unexpectedly one of the most interesting conversations I've seen in a while. It touches on so many questions I have around intersections of science and spirituality and it was super interesting to see them contextualized in the subject of medicine in east vs west cultures. I was so impressed by the way you two carried this discourse. Really great, thank you so much for having and sharing this.
This is 1. a PHENOMENAL and important conversation and 2. A PERFECT encapsulation of the long standing East Vs. West conflict and the inability to see the truth in both. Dr. Mike mentions being careful not to "throw the baby out with the bath water" but then proceeds to do so repetitiously with Eastern medicine. He is, of course, brilliant and I'm a HUGE fan. But one of my biggest gripes with the West and our approach to life is the inability to see the wisdom and truth in the East and adapt it to our systems and communities.
The fact is that we do use "eastern medicine." ANd I put it in quotes because humans have been using plants to try and cure a disease. The west may not have used "mindfullness" as much pre-modern medicine. Western medicine takes the best research we have and adapts it. Eastern medicine doesn't. It keeps to it's tradition in spite of research saying it doesn't work or has no effect.
If ayurveda works, then that is new western medicine. Right? Western medicine is nothing but scientific medicine. Everything should be scientific. Why call it west, east. If stuff works it's ours. Ayurveda was an ancient attempts to treat our diseases. It's a stepping stone for evolution of new western medicine.
To be fair, the East does this too. There are many practices in Eastern medicine that have been seen as non-affected and harmful tested by scientific researchers in East Asia who are putting forth this type of proof but are ignored mainly due to social pressures as well as said governments trying to use these practices as propaganda pieces rather than to treat the health of their citizens. It goes both ways.
And Western medicine isn’t much better. Especially since a lot of it can be bought with opinions $$$. It is profit driven and loaded with many side effects. Every problem is looked at as a new condition/disease and every solution is given with a pill, the never-ending cycle.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the turning point of how Dr. K noticed the unintended confrontational tension that was building up & didn't immediately assume negative things & go on to make probably wrong conclusions. Rather he got curious to actually understand the blockade in the communication was & he handled it so well that it turned out to be insightful to both of them, in that thay both got the opportunity to realise the underlying assumptions/cause of why they were struggling to connect❤that's real professional communication❤ & I love it! I commend u both for handling it this way & sharing with us the benefit of your respective insights & expertise in both worldviews on medicine. Even if this was the only portion someone watched it would be a wonderful lesson to take on effective communication for life💖. Thanks
This was not a heated convo. It was a very healthy, thoughtful convo between people who - while neither is perfect in any way -- both have educated, high-level perspectives and knowledge and experience in this area. So it is the type of convo we should continue to have on this platform. Not just echo chambers and syndicated propagandas. Thank you to both Dr K. HealthGamerGG and Dr. Mike.
@@user-kq2we1ex3hgive up your bias and u will see where is he coming from. Scientific evidence vs theory was a key highlight and it is biased yet insightful cause eventually biases are inevitable they are the core of our thoughts.
Like you said biases are inevitable. What's truly important is to be self aware of your own biases and be able to adapt to new knowledge even if that knowledge goes against your bias. @@InsaneSibs
He might be seen as annoying because he was giving real pushback. It's pretty clear that even Dr.K even agrees that 90% of it is garbage. In that case, why would we support it? I see no difference between a cult or religion and this alternative medicine. Both arent reliable. We need to stick with what is proven not fairytales@@user-kq2we1ex3h
indeed , its a cultural thing for us indians , we believe its the best way of sitting in most scenarios ,may it be meditation or even while having lunch (/duration after that) we believe it helps in better digestion and is little more efficient etc
@@sommermcdaniel9723i think it's after the half way mark when they're discussing the origin of thoughts and where they come from... Dr K was tickling his foot while asking that to demonstrate how we really don't have much explanation by modern science on the origin of thoughts and it's all built on a bunch of hypotheses which is why alternate forms of medicine shouldn't be completely dismissed as they take a more wholistic approach
this is the single best podcast i have ever/watched listened to. after seeing so many people who dont know what they are talking about and just shouting at eachother this has been a breath of fresh air. i hope you guys do it again!
I am also a physician working in new York and i started watching your conversations recently and when i say it has helped me a lot with my communication with my patients. I am not overstating. Thanks a lot @doctor mike
Amazing work that you’ve adapted what you’ve seen with Dr.Mike communication skills and have applied it to your own practice. I love that even though we can already be extremely knowledgable, there is always something new to learn and apply to ourselves!
Really want a part two! I generally can't bring myself to consume a two hour podcast in one go, so I had fully expected to start it, pause somewhere in the middle and then come back to it later, but as I started listening to this amazing conversation, I realised I was completely hooked and ended up listening to it without a single pause. I loved the way you both handled this topic that both clearly had different strong opinions about.
Love both of these guys.. this is a textbook example of one man who is high in neuroticism and one who is high in openness and how they can be on the same team but have very different opinions and approaches.
Probably because most of TH-cam aren't scientists. Or science-based practitioners or thinkers. I am a Paramedic myself. And I have conversations like this with other Paramedics all the time. (I know that we aren't scientists, but our profession is science-based, and we do practice evidence-based medicine at the pre-hospital level. So our approach to conversations or "arguments" mirror that of actual scientists and scientist-level people.) If more people had scientific mindsets, more conversational disagreements would go this way.
@@BrotherKnowledge. While I feel like that's partially true, I think the more important part is dismantling your biases and ego, and recognizing the emotional state of the conversation. There are a lot of people with scientific mindsets and backgrounds that are far more concerned on "winning" the argument rather than understanding the person they are talking to. Especially when the other person doesn't share their academic background.
@@Ser_Lefty Yeah, you aren't wrong there. Rarely is there a single solution to a multifaceted problem. The human element alone makes this issue an issue that would have to be addressed with varied solutions since various challenges, like biases, egos, personalities, emotional maturity, etc., would hamper progress towards more broad, effective discord. I agree with you.
This could be an immensely important duo -- I would absolutely love a weekly or monthly podcast between you two, and I have to imagine so would your respective audiences.
Never heard of Dr. K and don't know much about Ayurvedic medicine, but hats off to him for being super chill through this whole conversation. Mad respect. I love Dr. Mike, but his approach came across as pretty antagonistic for a big chunk of this. The points of mutually open discussions were great. I could see this going in a different direction if Dr. K hadn't kept his cool. Great job.
That’s bc in the US there is alot of people who prey on people through this “holistic” medicine and give people false hope that ends up killing peoples which is why it angers him
It was antagonistic in the sense that it wasn't just a mutual discussion or interview, but an excited debate at points. You can see the point where Dr Mike can't believe his colleague is saying nonsense. And then Dr K stops and asked him what's going on, and Mike realizes that he has a deep-seated bias against eastern practitioners as charlatans. He realizes his colleague is not that and then they start over from common ground. It's obv that Dr K does this every day.
@morganseppy5180 Dr. K is a psychiatrist so he took it well. The point of the matter is that over the discourse it started antagonistic and @indeedsnusen was claiming it wasn't. By the end I agree it ended respectfully but Dr.K won this 'debate' as he kept his cool better.
One of my favourite conversations in a long time. Would love to see continue collaboration between two of my favourite doctors turned educators for the internet age over the long-term. Thank you both for your insights, wisdom, and pushing to seek clarity & truth, and for showcasing how to disagree respectfully and professionally.
I love how both of them were so respectful amd so open minded to try to understand where the other was coming from and make sure they were being understoos correctly
Not sure if we watched the same video. You were right with this maybe in the latter part of the video. I believe Dr. Mike in his pursuit to have all the information laid out in plain English for the general audience that watches, lost himself a bit in his bias until the round up and reassessment happened. That’s just my bias of what I saw as a viewer who likes to watch 50/50 conversations.
@@meeddzzzI thought he was a little biased, but that makes sense. There's other episodes where he has to essentially debate kooks on basic medical knowledge, and on top of that he hasn't studied ayurveda. So we got a medical practice that he has no clue about, which he's told us 90% wrong by Dr k, obviously he's be iffy on it.
@@bluefalcon6356then, since he knew nothing of the topic, he should have listened and asked for info,.not for others to confirm his point of view. It seemed very immature from him. And some comments even slightly racist
There was a lot of good faith in this discussion which I appreciated, but I don't think there was enough good argumentation. As Dr. Mike wasn't fully equipped to deal with some of the rhetorical manipulation and sophistry that Dr. K indulged at parts of this discussion. Dr. K never gave a good reason for Ayurvedic practices to not have the same standards of evidence applied to them as western medicine. His objections were purely ideological ("it's antithetical," "it's cultural appropriation" etc.) and if he's as concerned as he says he is that Ayurvedic practices might just be inducing the placebo effect, he should want randomised controlled tests to be applied to Ayurvedic practices. As that is the only way you can tell if they are anything more than just induction of the placebo effect. This is supported by Dr K. establishing an incorrect definition of what a placebo is. A placebo is not "a treatment where we don't understand the underlying mechanism," that definition is backwards. A placebo is something that triggers the placebo effect, and in the vast majority of cases we KNOW that it simply doesn't have an underlying mechanism. By establishing this incorrect definition Dr. K was able to make room to speculate that Ayurvedic medicine has mysterious underlying mechanisms we don't understand. When the actual fact is there is no significant evidence that Ayurvedic practices are anything more than the induction of the placebo effect. And there never will be any significant evidence unless the RCT studies that Dr K. opposes are applied to Ayurvedic practices. Dr. Mike did very well to hold his own against an Harvard educated individual who is clearly very experienced in the art of debate and rhetoric. But Dr. K said a number of problematic things that were not challenged properly because Dr. Mike is not as experienced in that field. Still, it was a fascinating discussion and I'm immensely grateful to have had the privilege of watching it.
This was a Convo not a debate. Sadly most Public Debates these days take place between someone who is 80% Objectively right, and someone who is wrong. In this case a Debate is a stage performance. You don't debate to convince your opponent, you are responsible for debating the facts to convince people WATCHING the debate.
@@chrissmeaton7127 Seems like Dr. K would happily apply the same standards of evidence for Ayurvedic vs allopathic medicine if it was possible. It's just not possible right now because scientific research, esp. in the field of medicine, takes time to do properly. In other words, his biggest justification is that it's too slow, and there's too many people out there that would lose out on what he believes to be an effective (even anecdoctally) treatment while they suffer in the mean time.
@@WingSlaze Which works as an explanation for why he prefers to work as a boots on the ground physician rather than in a research capacity (although an argument could be made that a focus on research stands to help far more people in the long run). It doesn't work as an objection to subjecting these practices to RCT studies. Nor do I think Dr. K used this fact that way during this discussion.
Nurse here . Evidenced based practice is key to consistency overall BUT human beings are WHOLE beings that include emotional, mental and spiritual needs . We cannot treat ONLY a body we must treat the WHOLE person for best outcomes . Period.
But mindfulness has evidence. Studies have been done where scans are taken of the brains of people who meditate vs those who don't. There is also anecdotal evidence which demonstrates that people who meditate and practice mindfulness have overall better medical outcomes than those who don't. I don't see how mindfulness can be regulated though because it is also a religious practice.
Evidence based is important, but even in the field of research with complex chemical systems we don't make assumptions based on what we put in. We review differences between each set of experiments to account for differences. That isn't emotion, it is the scientific method and why standards, controls, etc are important. Unfortunately I have been misdiagnosed multiple times by doctors. Complacency is a real thing and from a scientific perspective it is something people in the medical field should check themselves on when diagnosing.
One small correction: at 1:14:02 Dr.K mentioned 'Charaka' Samahita, and not 'Garga' Samhita(in the subtitles, Garga has been mentioned instead of Charaka.) both are different. Please update it, it is misleading. Sage Charaka is father of ayurvedic medicine, and 'Samhita' loosely translates to 'compilation of texts'. 'Charaka Samhita' is the medical texts compiled by his students, which were based on Sage Charaka's findings and knowledge. Second Correction: at 1:15:36 and 1:16:19 Again in the subtitles, it is 'Parampara' not 'Barambara'.
I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Dr. K a year or so ago, and he is one of the nicest people aswell as brought a lot of insight to the everyday mental health struggles. I love when you two work on stuff together, great convo
I am not a health professional what so ever, but this was such a CLASS about conversation and debate. I find that when we talk to people that we even slightly disagree (or don't understand), most times we just want to feel that we are right or that we know more than the other, instead of actually listening and just talking really through questions and doubts. I include myself in this. And this conversation was so amazing exactly because I didn't feel like you were trying to win, I felt like I was watching two people talking about something that both really dominate and are very interested on. Beyond the great theme of the conversation, the conversation itself was amazing. (And also great practice as a English listening exercise lol) sorry if my comment is a bit confusing, english is not my first language!
hey just wanted to say that your comment made perfect sense and was actually written better than a lot of commenters with English as their first and only language
This interview was seriously amazing. As someone who works in the healthcare profession (Western Medicine) but grew up with ideas and notions of Eastern Medicine, the conversation between these two was incredible. Dr. Mike is rightfully insistent on EBP, but Dr. K brings up how spirituality and the related potential undiscovered mechanisms may inevitably alter how individuals and patients receive and respond to treatment, AND it ties in perfectly with The Art of Medicine! Dr. K really hit it home for me when he discussed how life altering the impact of mental health illness can be (whether it be acute or chronic). Thank you for sharing some insight on your own personal values for choosing clinical over academia. It was extremely heart warming to hear how important your patients are to you! Thanks Dr. Mike for hosting such interesting and invigorating conversations and always remaining so respectful.
Meditation have saved so many lives, families, careers, entire communities, but because west doesn’t understand it or can quantify it, it dismisses vast majority of it wholesale. There’s so much undiscovered treasure u guys have no idea.
What a sparring. Dr. Mike seems to not understand or respect psychiatry, psychology or psychotherapy and what we do as mental health practitioners it seems...Very entertaining no punches pulled I like both of them. Very smart.
As someone who just matched into Family Medicine and is about to embark on the their journey of learning more of the “art” of Medicine this conversation was so enlightening. Medical School was truly disease focused. Having just gone through this initial foray into learning allopathic medicine, I’ve felt this conflict with the application of this type of medicine from an individual perspective. I do agree with Dr. Mike’s point about continuing down the path of empirical western medicine with our RCTs and the rest and working our way down to the individual but Dr. K brings in potent points about trying the bottom-up approach (Individual to population) and how it can be a way of acquiring more beneficial modalities (supported by evidence) of treatments for patients. Hope those sentiments make sense. The conversation in this podcast was heady and very abstract but the western scientific tradition itself developed from such conversations. We need more conversations like these!
That stung a little since writing is a hobby of mine but I assume you meant no harm in it. I’m gonna choose to take that as a compliment 🥲since I wrote this off the top of my head and then edited it a few hours later haha
@@yoho3618 I genuinely appreciate and respect your writing style and hope you continue continuing. ❤️ It's coherent, refreshing, and most importantly impassioned. 😊
I'm a longtime follower of both doctors. I don't know anything about ayurveda but I did do some of the meditation exercises from Dr. k, and I had life changing mental breakthroughs during them. It worked better than any psychotherapy or antidepressant I have ever tried. There is something working here that is worth exploring.
What an awesome conversation this was. I didn't know Dr. K knew this much about vedas and stuff and I know there was still a ton left to unpack as well. I could have listened to 2-3 more hours of this stuff. Man even in the past our ancestors had so much knowledge and information that we just lost, what a tragedy.
Genuinely one of the best podcasts I’ve listened too!! As an anthropology major this was very exciting for me, to understand the cultural distinction in how scientific methods are run / seen as efficient is absolutely different between East and west, that is the starting point, to look at all of it, critique as the East as Dr K does, and Dr Mike does for the west. To recognize how, and why different viewpoints exist. This is the most anthropological conversation I’ve ever seen within two popular doctors. An immaculate interview that should be studied!! :))
Im so glad Dr. K took a minute to be like "hold on, what's this tension here?" because its been easy to read for a lot of it that Doctor Mike seemed to come from a place of challenging and discrediting Ayurvedic medicine as opposed to learning more about it. Which, knowing what i know about Doctor Mike's stance on medical misinformation and snake oil salesmen *totally* makes sense. And being from a Western mindset myself, I can see where Doctor Mike was struggling I think. Im still not done watching it, but I can see what Dr. K is trying to say that seems to be getting confused/misinterpreted by Doctor Mike because it is hard to put away the population-based Western medicine perspective when trying to wrap my mind around understanding Ayurvedic medication and the value that it can bring. The example of the three depression subtypes and the way depression manifests in Earth, Wind, or Fire types was really impactful to how I was able to start understanding Dr. K's points. Im so happy this conversation happened. ❤
Love Dr. Mike but he wasn't even listening to what Dr. K was saying he spent most of the time trying to argue. There isn't 90% issues with Ayurvedic medicine.. it is not understood by the West. We are moving toward the Eastern ways of doing things. This podcast highlighted how narrow minded Dr. M truly is. Was saddened
@@colouredlioness2199I think you didn’t see the discussion all the way through. There were points where they both made concessions - although I do think Dr. Mike was occasionally trying to defend against arguments that weren’t made.
Many of first gen pharma ie natural was stolen patents of ayurvedic medicines .there are many patent cases still pending while all these yrs while pharma has now come to 3rd gen medicines .and i say this as a western medicine practitioner
YES - I've been arguing with the TV as I've listened to this podcast lol. He is a brilliant psychiatrist- Dr. Mike isn't seeing eye to eye with him like at all in this vid. Hope that improves in the future. It didn't have to be a "debate" lol- I watch a lot of Huberman podcasts though so I really like how he talks to guests.
I absolutely loved this! I just finished medical school and am starting residency. There has been this massive disconnect between western medicine and eastern medicine in my culture. Growing up, we learned to meditate and how it can change our minds and the different ways to breathe. Then I came to medical school and was basically told that it's all rubbish. This conversation has been enlightening for me, in the sense that there can be a blend of both.
Congratulations on completing Medical school! I am very proud of you and I hope I can get into Medical school in the future! I wish you the best of luck in Residency, I know it is very difficult 🎉
I have worked in the medical field for around 25 years, I think this is shifting as it becomes harder to ignore the benefit of more alternative approaches/therapies become more mainstream
Eastern medicine is helpful. I grew up on Western. Our current "evidence based" system is really our infrastructure of medicine. Which has it's positive, but we've had government regulations to help protect patients & research volunteers. It's like the current automobile industry (EV, Hybrid, etc.) Drug companies will lobby & fund research to support their interests. Show me the $$$. I feel that medicine is focused in making $$$ rather than best treatments for a patient. If you have $$$, then you can get alternative treatments.
This is the only reason why they are opposing eastern medicine the money,if doctors really care about patients thn they will definitely think about collaborating these two beautiful perspective of treatment and ayurveda is not only about meditation Truth me it's alot more.. i am an Ayurvedic physician.
Dr Mike's visit on Healthy Gamer was one of my favorites and I was so glad to discover this one. I had no expectation that this would be the kind of conversation but I'm so glad it was. You can really see the difference from who's hosting. Great approaches from both. Fascinating stuff.
This is SUCH a valuable piece of medical "documentation." Dr. K's argument about removing the theoretical framework and mechanism behind the practices that Western medicine are extracting from Eastern medicines was absolutely brilliant. I would love to hear so much more about this.
More about this from Dr K.* Not others, just Dr K. Trust me that rabbit hole is not one you want to do down. It has such great characters arguments and beliefs that make you lose braincells.
It's really cool. It's the kind of thing we (hopefully) try to learn when studying epistemology or, more broadly, philosophy of science - being aware of different methodologies and practices as a way to not only be open to knowledge exchange but also to be conscious of the values and structures in your own system so you can be more mindful of who benefits from them, as well as avoid dismissing/harming other people. The problem is that it's hard to have a conversation out there with this in mind without coming across charlatans or close-minded douchebags...
The west copies so much from India and doesn't even give it credit. But when you know the original has Sanskrit names, you know where its from and what the truth is. Huberman copies a lot of yogic practices and pretends he came up with them. its pathetic
I@ThePreityEffect is it not possible for two people to come up with the same idea though? If there is blatant evidence of copying, then I would agree with you, but convergent ideas can happen much like how convergent evolution happens.
Wow, this is by far one of the best podcast episodes I've ever seen. Such an interesting and important conversation. The disagreements and misunderstandings were handled so well by both dr.s, really a masterclass of polite yet poignant discourse and how to ask good questions and probe people without being aggressive and judgemental. Awesome stuff, thanks for sharing it with us :)
This was excellent. I was really struggling in the first half as I felt that Mike had a point to prove. I love how Dr K addressed it and moved the conversation to areas that allowed more of the ideas to be explored, while Mike pivoted his approach to the conversation. I thought this was such an informative exploration, I just want to hear so much more. I LOVE that Mike acknowledged that we get stuck on nomenclature when that was part of the challenge in the first half of the podcast in some ways. My brain feels zingy after listening to this.
That’s good that it gets better cause im in the first half and im getting tired of Dr Mike asking over and over the same questions to which he got answers to already and then he’d ask another question in a way that ignores the prior answer given. Cause he approaches in the beginning this convo like “you think Ayurveda is be all and you defend all of it” cause he himself seems to have this all or nothing view on types of medicines. Which is not the problem of Dr K, he admits his preference of Western medicine for obvious reasons but also he’s capable of seeing advantages in a different system especially as it offers something that WM lacks of. That Dr Mike perceives as a black and white argument and him fighting against this black and white argument turned to be exhausting. Cause he was basically projecting something else onto Dr K rather than to actually listen to what actually Dr K was saying. Plus some of the things (eg sanitizing) that Dr Mike said was so ughhh in how euro-centric that was. As a historian and an anthropologist I facepalmed so hard I hurt my nose 😂😩😝😅
The difference between these two doctors is the fact that Doctor Mike is over-relying on the biased English imperialistic scientific method by materialistic empiricism. While Doctor K is relying on both the biased English imperialistic scientific method by materialistic empiricism and the spiritual existence of human nature's soul (not supernatural). What Doctor K is doing is basically the same of what the most sophisticated western psychologist (Carl Jung) was doing, which is called 2-way thinking: atomistic thinking and holistic thinking... that is to rely on the scientific method by materialistic empiricism while simultaneously applying the spiritual side of human nature's soul (psyche).
I could listen to a weekly podcast episode of these two. So much respect for both in their own right and how genuinely altruistic they come off. Most anyone else in their position would be fully focused on monetizing their position to the highest extent (I’m sure I in their position would do the same) yet here they both are and both show that what drives them is their care for truth, people, and a better world. Thank you to both Dr. Mike and Dr. K who have both been large influences in my life.
I disagree, I felt that he kinda manipulated him there. There was a lot of flawed logic imo in the arguments about 10min beforethey reached that point in the convo. I felt that Mike felt like he was put on the spot after Dr. K‘s „intervention“ and felt as if he was being a bit mean or too agressive and then he started to leave the pure logical path and go down the rabbit hole a bit more. Im not saying he totally agreed on everything but I feel like he agreed to stuff that logically didn‘t make a lot of sense after this point in the convo. And btw I‘m a fan of Dr. K AND Dr. Mike 🙌🏼 I‘m just telling you what I think I noticed here.
well dr Mike was being quite disagreeable in the majority of the podcast, dr K on the other hand, did talk a lot but in a much calmer way. Calling it fraught, scam, cult, or fundamentally flawed is not the best choice of the words imo, that's why I think dr K was so ready to explain everything.Also dr Mike did try to challenge his beliefs while Dr K's career is partially based on the whole concept that he explained, I don't think that for an average person that would've been a comfortable situation, yet Alok handled it all like a pro, steady and ready to explain anything that needed to be explained @@Diego-pk4yf
@@wonderIland I agree, but this is just poor wording. In terms of what they actually said, I gotta give the „point“ to dr. Mike. He was on the side of science and reproducable mass applicable medicine.
@@Diego-pk4yf Everyone has a right to their opinion. I'm leaning towards dr K since he's e xperienced in both worlds and wants to contribute new stuff to medicine, while dr Mike is speaking in a way where Alok described his speech as not open minded, to that I agree with. Also Mike is being 100%: all for the western, and culturally and personally I'm not about that world, so I'm with Alok there.What rubbed me the wrong way was dr Mike saying *let's just not call it/forget about ayurveda* smth along those lines. That's definitely not the way it's supposed to go.
From Dr K's point of view, yes. But from Dr Mike 's, I'm not sure but he seemed hell-bent on making Dr K seem to have different viewpoints, when they're actually similar
This was an AMAZING conversation! Loved how the both of you were so open to hearing each other’s point of view and were able to find the common ground all while having an educated and informative discussion. Great stuff
I think they're talking about two different things in the same realm. Dr. Mike is talking about "how do we best learn about potential treatments of disease" and Dr. K is talking about "how do we interact with people seeking help".
And it makes sense because their professions are very different. Dr. Mike is trained to help treat physical ailments whereas Dr. K is trained to help treat mental ailments.
I don't think that is true. I think Dr Mike simply wanted examples of how Ayurvedic medicine is actually beneficial and hopefully how we can, in the future, better understand it. He simply is trying to find a way to implement it safely without leaving a window open for snake oil salesmen who will use the current opaqueness of the art as a cover for selling BS. I don't think he was trying to be hostile, I think he was just looking for answers.
@kevinmartorano5780 Yeah but he looked hostile towards it at some point and I feel like Dr k should have given more examples about it how it helped how there are already so many scientific studies, and it's hard for Dr Mike to understand cause western is all he knows about but on other hand Dr k or let's say ayurved practitioner knows both so it's like communication gap
@@MissTubeMS yeah there definitely was a feeling of hostility at a point, but I think it was more frustration at having an expert sitting next to you and wanting specifics because so far you have only gotten b.s. from your other interactions. I know I have had similar issues where I want to be proven wrong but I am only given either "facts" that are immediately prove-able as wrong, or so little detail that there isnt anything actionable learned from the conversation. I found that as they got into more specifics later in the conversation the feeling of hostility ebbed.
Amazing amazing amazing. Both of you are such knowledgeable, respectful, high IQ and EQ individuals who both put out such valuable perspectives. There NEEDS to be multiple Dr K + Dr Mike podcasts. I will literally watch an entire series of podcasts of you two having such thoughtful conversations and even just being chill because you two are clearly chill and normal people who seem to vibe well anyhow.
I wholeheartedly agree with wanting more of this collab! Two of my favorite TH-camrs having intelligent, informed discourse on topics I'm interested in and which are relevant to both my personal and professional lives - MOAR PLZZZZZ!!!1!! 🤩
This conversation really shows how much western and eastern consciousness is largely not overlapping. One is fragmented and mechanistic and the other is holistic. Ayurvedic medicine isn't a system of treatments for specific conditions, but a way of supporting the body in a holistic way to heal itself. Each herb works in so many ways and depends on the body that receives it.
This is one of the most enthralling discussions I have seen in such a long time. My lord this is fun to watch. Wish I had popcorn right now. 🍿 I want my life to be filled with these conversations.
That is easily the longest pod I've ever sat through and I would happily do so again. What a great conversation to listen to. I love being involved in a passionate conversation with someone and then having that moment of realisation that we're technically arguing for the same thing just coming at it from different angles, it's so important to have your preconceived notions challenged.
This was a great discussion! I've never heard about HealthyGamer until now. Your questions and counter points were great, and Dr. Kanojia's ability to answer them honestly with great explanations kept me engaged the whole time. Especially since as Dr. K put it, he mainly agrees with you and is usually stating your same concerns at Ayurveda conferences. IMO, his analogy of the importance of understanding microbiology for penicillin was an insightful comparison for seeking to understand ayurveda as a whole to avoid pitfalls and find further therapeutic options
Coming from a family of ayurvedic doctors and studying modern medicine myself I was able to relate a lot with the constant banter between the two experts here. Tbh, all the questions Dr. Mike asked Dr. K did come to my mind growing up but this podcast just clarified so much of what was unanswered for me. Thanks so much for this content Dr. Mike! ❤❤❤
@user-jx3kg7ve1m... no one is stealing anything. Appropriation in therapeutic techniques and rediscovering some of the methodologies used in ayurveda yes, sometimes. It is a fact that Western medicine is faster, more reliable and has better results. This is the reason it's so popular. This episode brought up the point again and again though that ayurveda isn't infallible and the main problem with it is that most practioners aren't open to rigorous critical analysis. You're wrong if your takeaway is that it's being "stolen". We should be encouraging both types of doctors to learn from the bests of the other field to get better results in both
@user-jx3kg7ve1mModern scientific community doesn't steal anything. Science is all about looking at evidence and developing things using technology. How do you think medicine evolved? It all evolved from ancient practices.
@@deepakhiremath6171 it doesn't technically steal anything but if it forgets to mention where it came from and only takes some parts while excluding to mention the spirituality the original approach was developed with, that can well be perceived as a form of cultural appropriation. Simply because the modern medicine is a product of the west and the west has colonised and exploited the rest of the planet (and still does in many ways until today), including India for centuries. It doesn't matter if you as a westerner see it as an innocent scientific method. What matters is how people of that culture see it and perceive it.
@@deepakhiremath6171Stealing here means rebranding well known Hindu concepts to sever their connection to Hinduism and sell them as a western innovation. This is a way to steal credit and also discredit Hindu practices. Many ayurvedic practices have been adopted by modern medicine but ayurveda is still looked suspiciously because those things that are adopted, have had their connection to Ayurveda severed.
I am begging yall to do another one of these this was the most fascinating conversation and I learned so much! I’m definitely very ignorant of eastern medicine and wrote it off as all woo woo so this was… very cool to listen to
I love the fact that YT interrupted the part of the video where they discuss individual vs population care to serve me an ad on why I need a hair treatment personalized to me instead of generalized for the masses 😂
As an Indian living overseas who has critically analysed our spiritual path as a sceptic before I could start my journey this is the ultimate truth i needed to confirm my beliefs. I would go as far as calling Dr. K a modern day Adi Shankarachaya. Your work (dharma) is revolutionary. Thank you for being an inspiration.
@@akashnd5293 I'm sure there were people in those days that thought what Adi Shankaracharya was doing was a "bit stretch". I'm not giving him the spiritual status but his work is what we need in today's times. And none of us (not even the real gurus) can hold a debate like that. This reminded me of the debate between Adi Shankaracharya and Mandana Mishra. Although this was was just a glimpse.
I don’t think you have sufficient knowledge centering spirituality. And you have no idea who Adi Shankaracharya was. Dr. K and Shankaracharya worked in two completely different domains. I think you need to understand and know a lot more before you write comments like these. I know a few things and reading your comments, I can clearly see this is coming from someone who’s just starting out and only has surface-level information about topics 😅
@@KetszercsipExactly! Until then the conversation was basically stagnant and it was going in circles about what Ayurveda is and how it is different from Western medicine. Dr. Mike definitely had some animosity towards Ayurveda, especially it's practitioners (who themselves don't do a good job of reconciliation with Western medicine practitioners I guess).
@@Ketszercsip Yes on the surface it does look like that. I do think that he directly tries to tackle the problem that Dr Mike is struggling with when he tries to "re-conciliate". I agree with his take that Dr. Mike had made up his mind on Ayurvedic medicine or had a hyptothesis that he wanted proven/disproven. Whereas, all Dr. K is trying to say and do is that there is something valuable in the teachings on Ayurveda/yoga etc. Looking at his history - he initially did learn eastern "medicine" but didn't agree with it and then went to medical school. He agrees that Ayurvedic medicine isn't reliable as it currently stands but he is pushing for western medicine to take lessons from it. Which it is finally doing with yogic techniques (breathing exercises, yoga poses etc). And to get that thought across to Dr. Mike, he had to diffuse the almost argumentative/heated conversation back to somewhere where both people are relaxed and open to listen to the other side. Atleast thats how i read that situation. YMMV
To add to that - Dr Mike actually says that him and Dr K see almost eye to eye if not exactly eye to eye on Ayurveda AFTER the whole "reconcilatory" conversation.
1:24:54 Dr. K digs down. Love this part because we see outcomes we don’t understand. Our brains have mechanisms worth investigating, but our approach using what we know comes up short. I am confident that the science behind how spirituality affects wellness can and will be more understood in the near future. We’re knocking at its door. We just have to know how to investigate it properly. The right questions will bring us there eventually.
I would never had dreamed that two people whose opinions I hold in VERY HIGH REGARD coming together in one video. I am in awe. Thank you both. Every day is a climb but at least what I learn from y'all helps me go up one rung at a time.
1:05:06 What an interesting perspective of medicine in practice. Eastern medicine prioritizes the effectiveness of a treatment for the individual versus western medicine is more utilitarian, prioritizing the ability of a treatment to be standardized for a society. This changes the ethics of placebo treatment. It's unethical to systematize placebo treatment because on a large scale, it is not demonstrated to provide reliable benefits. But on an individual level, if a placebo can be tried on the patient, and if it resolves their symptoms without putting that individual at risk, it is actually unethical not to try.
This discussion was absolutely mind-blowing! I only wished i could have taken part in it as i have so many views and questions on the points they both raised. Absolute knock-out video guys! I look forward to a part two!
@@erikarnesen6052 i think basic logic and reasoning is important and mike has consistently shown he lacks the capacity for that he blindly accepts what hes told, unless the information source is one hes told not to acccept, then he attacks it
As a woman, with ADHD, that has had to deal with medications not being as effective on my period because lab testing JUST DOES NOT account for my hormonal cycle, and finding out most human trials are done on men because female hormone cycles "mess up the results," meaning that for half the population, medicine just wasn't made for us, this Ayurveda "person first, then lab" approach actually sounds like it could solve a LOT of the AFAB population's problems
The problem which is part of why I wish there was a scientist in the room is that it isn't neccsarily like that in reality. Ayurveda claimed person first then lab often focuses on the culturally approved aspects of what is person first. It doesn't neccsarily increase for example the ammount of people undergoing individual trails of medications which appears to be what you are describing. Also of course, many people are in fact reluctant to undergo things that haven't been tested before which creates the weird spin off of this whole person first idea as you ultimately have to ask the question how are they establishing the relevent traits too.
@@thelemurofmadagascar9183 saying "assigned female at birth" (afab) or "assigned male at birth" (amab) can be more appropriate when accounting for trans folk in a medical setting though. this way, the original commenter also encompassed trans men, nonbinary folk, etc etc who also struggle with periods or other afab-characteristic hormonal conditions :)
There’s not enough education on how to communicate for medical professionals. I have been focusing on healthy communication in my MSN classes. Dr Mike is a master of communication. I’d love to know where he learned his skills (though I assume it was heavily influenced by his parents). Dr Mike, I’d love if you could do a video or podcast episode focusing on this! 🙏🏻
This is very true. It is very irrational of us to invest nearly a decade of training into many medical professionals and then not really teach them how to spread it. Waste of resources
So I don't know anything about Ayurvedic medicine at all, but I just started reading a book called Fresh Banana Leaves by Dr. Jessica Hernandez and there is a section called invalidating our Indigeneity, which popped in my head when the discussion of the differences between Eastern and Western medicine came up. She writes about how her first hand experiences as an indigenous person is invalidated by professors, scientists, and researchers because it doesn't fit or follow linear way of thinking that Western scientific method follows. After watching some of the interactions, I completely understand what she is saying.
The so called 'differences' between eastern and western medicine are just not true. Western medicine once was also riddled with fantasy and fiction. The eastern part of the world also contributes to modern, scientific medicine. Ayurveda is eastern pseudoscience just as homeopathy is western pseudoscience.
But there are methods of collecting evidence.....some methods are available now that we're not there 60 yrs ago.....and more methods will be developed as time goes and then prove things that we don't see as "scientific" to day
For what I have experienced Ayurveda has been a prevention pf diseases rather than a cure It is quite similar to homeopathy other than the fact it does not hurt you
And there were some things that didn't make sense to them that I understood, so that felt nice. Between their subsequent explanation/ elucidation, even if I was right about the info provided, I found that the interplay between my reaction and theirs and it actually added to a depth of my own understanding on multiple points.😊
I think it's really valuable that we get two diverse perspectives that y'all gave us from two intelligent individuals. Thank you for doing this. Also appreciated your left-handed comment, Dr. Mike (as a lefty lol)
I was so happy to come across this discussion. I really enjoy BOTH of you, individually, and to hear you together was extra special! And, as usual, such an elevated conversation!
Dr.K is awesome! Thank you for sharing him :) I really enjoyed this ep. Listening to you both was how it feels being in my brain haha. Both had wonderful points that are true at different times, regardless, great info.
This was a masterpiece of an interview. I am very familiar and a huge fan of Dr. K, and have also seen a lot of hatred from people’s misperceptions of his work. I love how Dr. Mike brought up those common misconceptions of Dr K’s work in a way that invited a true conversation seeking to understand each other point of view without an apparent agenda. Both Dr. K and Dr. Mike were able to stay present, engaged, listen carefully, and challenge ideas in a way that invited healthy debate and seeking to understand instead of just seeking to be understood. Dr. Mike, great podcast.
@@humanoid8344 Why would you generalize that? the topic is very specific here. People who do these modern interpretations of ancient Indian yoga or ancient Chinese techniques of acupuncture do not give credit to it's original source. They are selective about the elements of ancient medicine and promote cherry picked items from these, only to make money, and end up bashing most other things in other cultures as regressive and backward.
I think this was a much needed conversation. I watch a lot of Dr. K/HealthyGamer content and have been wondering these same questions whenever Dr. K mentions Ayurveda and had or have many of the same suspicions or criticisms of Ayurveda from what I’ve heard living in the US all my life. Needless to say it’s been fascinating to hear this discussion and both of them did it with lots of respect and congeniality for one another. A rare thing on TH-cam in my opinion.
This is one of the best debates I’ve heard in a while. Irrespective of the topic, the way the arguments were constructed, disagreements were exchanged, is a great example of how debates must happen!
I got immense respect for Dr. Mike after this. It was a healthier version of me discussing the same issue with my brother. And I missed someone asking about the flip side so that I can discusss the collective struggle. It completed my gestalt. Thank you Dr. Mike. Dr. K raised some genuine issues in research publications that don't allow Indigenous sciences to be represented well. I would love to read that it was Yoga nidra and Nadi shodan or Hatha Yoga rather than some clinical technique. Most importantly, as a therapist, I agree that we are not trained to address clients as human beings going through life processes. I have noticed much more value in mentoring than in clinical therapy during my practice.
Dr. K (his full name is Alok Kanojia, MD MPH) is a gem. We had a fantastic conversation. What I learned from this discussion was that it reminded me of a quote: "When you treat a disease, you win/or lose, but when you treat a person, I guarantee you win, no matter what the outcome" ( Patch Adams).
Super important convo 🙏 Thanks for having us on 💚
subbed
Dr K, as a 72yo Westerner who's relied on the Vedantic Upanishads and Gita for philosophical and spiritual support nearly 50 years now (and a frequent viewer of your own channel), the way you always model blending ("Western") scientific method and Dharmic wisdom inspires me profoundly. You give me faith that the human species is, in fact, evolving toward a higher synthesis capable of supporting first a global - and eventually a galactic - survival strategy. Thank you for always sharing both your mind and your compassionate heart with us all!
With Dr. K touring the podcast circuit, I was wishing for this collab yesterday... PERFECT bloody timing universe!
Mom and dad are debating again
Thank you for talking with so many people
Treat this comment as a petition for Dr Mike and K to create a consistent podcast. The amount of scientific and medical knowledge and nuance transferred in a complex but also comprehensive way is frankly amazing. The fact that is readily available for anyone to listent to is certainly one of the greatest testaments to the power of the internet
Fully agree with this
100%. Probably the best podcast ep I've seen in a long time.
I fully haven't worked out the title, but threes something to "Western Physio, Eastern Psychy With Dr M + K"
Yeah this was the most educationally stimulating podcast ever.
Today we talk about East-Western Medicine, kids, Mkay?@@MrBeetSoda mkay?
My favorite part was when Dr. K suplexed Dr. Mike through the table and then they hugged it out after. Incredible
Yes, I just loved that part!!!
Really brought him to suplex city
My favorite part was when Dr. K mortal combat fatalitied Dr. Mike and pulled out his ribcage then used Ayurvedic medecine to put it back
💀💀💀@@sawyerseth9832
i like the part when they almost kissed. not that i wanted that to happen, im just saying it was really funny haha that would be weird if they did
I think Dr. K's commentary on "time" is underappreciated. Mental illness destroyed YEARS of my life, interpersonal relationships, and delayed my education and career. And I had help and resources that people definitely don't.
Same! Reminds me of how hard higher education was for me, being extremely depressed but not realizing it and thinking I must be just a bad, lazy person because of that
Years? DECADES!!! 😅
Yeah man. I love to think of all illness (mental, physical, or anything you might believe in live spiritual etc) as time it takes away. Years lost, if you will. My girlfriend has chronic pain and neurological conditions that prevent her from regular movement, interpretation, learning, etc. how many years of “regular” (average) life will she lose through her life. One example is she spends 90% of her time focusing on school. She only does part time (she does well, high 90 average) but she works as much or more than full timers because she effectively has less hours in the day as everything takes longer. I think the world is moving towards accepting the idea that illness affect us in this way, but it’s a long way from perfect.
Sushruta invented surgery still some people from west don't believe in Ayurveda
me too
Man, that got heated. When Dr. K got up and threw a chair, I thought it was over.
Hahaha 😂😂😂😂
Luckily there were two doctors in the room to deal with the multiple injuries
Ayo bro I am at 2:02:07 and am excited to see it happen.
What about when Dr Mike left and came back in wearing his boxing shorts and boxing gloves!!?
Time stamp plz
Man, imagine a world where people knew how to discuss and debate their own viewpoints as well as LISTEN to others views, in a constructive, self honest way like this. I think so much of our social-cultural conflicts are because people don't know how to debate and listen.
*cough cough* Destiny *cough cough*
Wired. I think you wrote an entire paragraph incorrectly trying to spell the words "financial incentive."
2:14:53 was hilarious. The dap up.
we need to have dialogues to understand each other not debate, debate is mostly just trying to prove your point/opinion which always brings out conflict
@@mrbehindthemustache mr borreli 😢
I think the main problem of this podcast is one could conclude only watching this that Dr k is Ayurvedic-centric which is largely not the case (which of course he stated peripherally a few times), merely more open to Ayurvedic perspectives than most western doctors, including recognizing its strengths.
However, while Dr Mike’s exposure to Ayurvedic practices is likely influenced by those who are taking advantage of its lack of RCT and such and making bold statements with no evidence (the “woowoo” people, not Dr Mike) , I think his expertise allows for a conversation with Dr K I’ve never seen before. This is a conversation that is unbelievably relevant to our time. I respect both Drs so much in their approach to medicine. Respect to those who can have differing perspectives and have an open conversation!
your first sentence summarized the new comment section perfectly
@@Ryan-to1pr ikr i was reading some comments and i was like wait a minute, im not sure if Dr mike is really pushing back an ideology that Dr K has, merely an idea that Dr K can talk upon
Agreed, although drk does promote eastern practices, he is still a medical doctor first
I believe that some holistic medicine is beneficial. I think that the general public does not comprehend and can easily overdose or underdose themselves. I also think they can mistake plants and create health issues. Therefore, if it is vague and not completely measurable, I bow out gracefully. The people I have experienced that are holistic are paranoid and have serious mental issues that make their behavior and speaking scary. They almost threaten us if we don't come over to their dark side. So I avoid these diets because I don't know how much is affected by the diet and how they were before they started these fads. So I am intrigued by this doctor who is calm and collected. I would be open to listening to him. I may not change, but he is calmly and rationally talking about his side. I definitely will listen to his story. I am not looking to live a long life. My DNA is a ticking time bomb. But I won't mind eating better while I live my life.
It's not real life. It's to get viewer engagement (which I'm sad I contributed to) so I'm out. The kids say whoosh so I think that applies. You know because I'm whooshing away. I think.
Dr. Mike stressing me out at the start here haha. Shout out Dr. K for his patience and bigger shout out to Dr. Mike for opening up once he noticed himself being closed, rather than getting more defensive. Truly big of him and I hope to emulate that in my life a long with Dr. Ks empathy and self awareness
yea it was almost snobby and insensitive.
Summed my thoughts up perfectly. Well said. Kudos to both. This is how deep and meaningful discussions should be had. Man if we all took the example of these two and implemented it in our everyday discussions we as a society would have vastly better outcomes regardless of setting.
But why should he be open minded anyway to something that isnt scientific and measurable
@@a.k.8719 If you aren't openminded, you aren't assessing the thing and determining if it is scientific and measurable. You're dismissing it out of hand because of a preconceived notion of what it is, prejudging it based on the source, or otherwise allowing a bias to prevent you from engaging with it in a meaningful way. Being openminded doesn't mean turning your bullshit meter off
@@a.k.8719because science is developed from things that at some point were not scientific and measurable
None of my friends are eager to have open conversations like this. This video is refreshing. Debating is a honest and effective way to have two people walk away at the end of a conversation with valuable and relevant information about something interesting to both parties
I feel like you should find new friends. Your friends should accept you and your opinions without having to get too heated. If you can't be civil and analytical with one another, how do you know when they're lying or telling you the truth?
This.
You don’t have close friends then
Ngl kind of a red flag to be "debating" friends. Yall should be able to talk without so much tension
@@pal8492 debate =/= bad. I think you misunderstand what a debate is.
If anything, having friends that are so fragile that you cannot challenge some of their beliefs is a red flag.
My girlfriend (a big Dr. K fan) and I (a big Dr. Mike fan) have been fighting about Ayurvedic/Homeopathic/Eastern medicine for a long time. I used to get overly focused on the "scammyness" and she would always get focused on the "Western medicine just hasnt investigated the mechanisms enough"... but we wouldnt necessarily see the other view point well enough/technically enough.
This video really helped close the gap between us on this topic. Fascinating discussion!
Homeopathy is not eastern medicine
Just like with the focus of Ayurveda vs Western medicine the scams of Western medicine are at a population level vs scams of Ayurveda at an individual level
i am pretty sure Ayurved is different than Homeopathy
dont put ayurveda in the umbrella of shity eartern medicine
As someone who has received Ayurveda treatment and someone from Sri Lanka. It is much different from Homeopathy where from what I remember is really diluted to the point that whatever medicine you take is just water
The two medical titans of TH-cam clashing it out! This video is going to be wild.
MD vs DO who partied during CoViD.
Well ones more of a Twitch guy…
I've been wanting this video for months now
Touch grass dude
@@mariomario1462someone who takes their time to write a negative comment on the internet telling other to touch grass lmao
What I love about Dr.K is that he's so direct but respectful. I've learned so much about how to communicate better with people on my personal life by just watching him. I'm a very direct person but the way he phrases his statements and tone is one that I am stealing with integrity because it is so clear when one is prepared and understands their subject, it becomes so much easier to communicate simply and tailor communication to the audience.
I absolutely love how there are times where a question is asked or an explanation is given, and the listener stops and pauses for some seconds, truly thinking critically, and then asking follow up. You both are brilliant, and I admire your curiosity and consideration in this incredibly healthy conversation where we all, including you both of course, can learn so much. Thanks!
Not to mention how when the other person doesn't quite understand their answer, they make it a point to reframe the answer by simplifying it to the basics.
Bro have never seen a real conversation/debate before
@@mattnic001 Indeed, that is something you learn on your day in academia. Nobody will bat an eye when you stop to think before you speak, but you totally will earn the ire of people if you speak out without thinking thoroughly.
imagine if our parents fought like this
some do. my wife and i fight like this. it makes a massively positive impression on our 12 year old
my parents did not fight like this to your point tho haha
I try to fight like this with my parents.
But they dont really respond to arguments with arguments but with faked manipulative emotions.
Its fun to then discuss this with my brother who does the same thing.
@@arjunaleri2569Good for you!
@@radekmojzis9829this right here I thought turning adult would help, it did not
A couple of old geezers huh? 😂
I'm a Skeptic and a fan of Dr K.
I done some of his coaching, have his book and coaching materials, and watched tons of videos both on his HG channel and with other content providers, and meditate on the daily for years now.
I've always had a problem with his "woo woo" stuff (I have a problem with most woo-woo stuff) but this conversation has been the most in-depth conversation I've seen about his Ayurveda position. He's actually challenged to answer hard questions, and defend his position from a western and eastern perspective.
This has given me a better understanding of his position and he sounds a lot less mystical/superstitious to me after watching the video. I really appreciate Dr Mike pushing back pretty hard on some of Dr K's positions, and helping get some clarity around how and why he thinks Ayurveda is worth anything.
Thank you Dr Mike and Dr K for this sit down. I really learned a lot and valued this exchange.
THIS is how you have a productive conversation when views do not align.
@@laurent-m1z Means alternative medicine
@@laurent-m1z a term for fantastical, hopeful, and generally completely unproven phenomenon.
Buddy, the field of preparing extracts from certain plants and animal products to make medicines is called Auyrveda in India.
Are there frauds? sure,
is Ayurveda better than western medicine in general sense? Absolutely not.
But is Ayurveda worth researching using modern scientific techniques in the hopes of getting medicines which may yield better results in certain cases ? 100 %.
Exactly my thoughts. People usually don't push back against Dr K cause of how smart he is, I'm glad Dr Mike did.
@@adityabhattacharyya8727 With more research Ayurveda can easily have more benefits than western medicines.
Big universities like Nalanda were demolished by mslim invaders.
Humanity lost a lot of knowledge right there.
You can tell Dr. Mike's a boxer, because he was pushing Dr. K to the ropes. And Dr. K also has some mad ropa-dope. Dr. K also disarmed Dr. Mike quite well, regarding the clear bias towards the undertone of "I dislike snakeoil".
Quite frankly, one of the best debates I've ever seen. No. Not debates, because debates are full of tricks and manipulations to get the audience on your side. This is, pure and simple, outright philosophy and pursuit of truth.
The most beautiful conversation I've heard in many years. Most people simply fight to fight and to defend their position to the death.
The mutual seeking of truth is just....a pure delight, and it is especially warming to my much-in-need soul.
Gratitude to you both. Keep up the great work!
Dr K does this for a living, but he makes it look effortless. You're right that it was such a beautiful pursiut of truth AFTER Dr Mike let go of his ego and could listen honestly
Sushruta invented surgery still some people from west don't believe in Ayurveda
you can tell dr. k is a harvard guy and dr mike is an “in the trenches” guy
Manipulation’s, bro are you talking about Zakir Naik 😂
Omg this is the crossover I didn’t know I needed - halfway through, incredible convo so far ❤❤
How I wish to hear you and Dr. K have a conversation! It would be so interesting to see
shut up ali, go back to scamming your viewers as always
@@juststanningbywould be great
Bro same it's too good not only from an intellectual standpoint but also absolutely thrilling from entertainment standpoint as well
My exact thoughts.
The way Dr. K stopped the interview/debate to ask why Dr. Mike was so confrontational was very professional and kept the converstaion on track. Dr. Mike had walls and Dr. K dismantled them to keep an open mind, and keep the interview on the rails.
Class act from both, and good on Dr. Mike to recognize the bias.
Dope mental judo.
Great educated minds can converse like this.
Yep this is one of the rare podcasts with deep nuances & respectfully explaining each other differences in opinions than just agreeing with each other person unquestionably.
30:40 And Dr.k pronounced patanjalis yoga Sutras,yoga,ayurveda,Rog (different Indian words) right without an American accent while having his rest of the conversation in his regular accent, that's some awesome control on language (regardless of ethnicity & that he knows about Ayurveda).
Time stamp?
@@kizryuver he always does that and its super cool
25:53 I just love the absolute maturity of the conversation here. The practice of trying to understand what the person is trying to say, acknowledging, "oh wait, they are on the same side as me, but using different language", but also praising the other that their framing/usage of words are better to illustrate the same point.
So awesome
Dr. K is a practicing psychiatrist, ofcourse he'd know how to reframe and identify conversations from a different PoV
I've run into this problem where two people are saying the same thing and actively agreeing with each other but are unable to see that they are because they're using different words.
@@KLil37 you've worded what I wanted to say but couldn't figure out how. All I could come up with was "this interview sounds like me trying to discuss anything with my mother." 😂
That interaction was an example of why I love these two. Dr. K probing Dr. M to clarify where Mike's passion was coming from is why I love Dr. K so much.
yea this talk was so good all the way through! Dr. Mike agreed on a lot more than he thought at the beginning, but that really worked for the interview. it caused him to ask questions, which prompted Dr. K go more in depth on Ayurveda
Great convo! Crazy that Dr. Mike compared 1900s CE Europe with 4000s BC Indus Valley and seems to miss the historical context but he's obviously intelligent and respectful. Dr. K has been my dude for his braided systems approach
IMO this is how debates should go. This guys deserve some respect.
Yeah, challenging eachother beliefs to come to right conclusions is more important than being right. Great debate.
Ideally, yes. The unfortunate reality is that, both parties here are very empathetic, and aren't interested in measuring their dicks and trying to "win". With most people, sacrificing eloquence and maturity for something like ad-hominem fallacy. :/
Absolutely agree. “Debates” or “arguments” should not be won but come to an agreement and come to an understanding.
IMO dr mike kinda debated himself 🤣
Yeah It can get uncomfortable but thats better than it getting spiteful or even violent.
Its not hard to put your pride aside when you have a healthy mindset
This was such an invigorating conversation to listen to! It’s hard to find a podcast where the guest and host discuss and challenge ideas with this level of intellectual integrity. The honesty about the flaws in clinical practice from both parties is also so valuable. So much respect for both Drs. Mike and K! Thank you!
I have terrible mental health struggles, and what doc K said about the depressive episode costing you in life is real. i lost my job, my gf, my home, my pet, and my car. its hard
@cristianaraujo9293 In what world was this an appropriate response to this? OP ignore them. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
@@felixhenson9926right?! What a weird reply
@@felixhenson9926 I think he is someone who is more lost then most of us.
@@kanishakmadaan1Seems to me that the weird reply came from a place where that person has none of that and maybe tried to say, look at me, I never had that in the first place or I’ve been trying to get that - be glad that you had it at least, unlike some of us. Or maybe they’re just a troll or a bully.
@@Yasqo ohh , thanks🙏 , didn't think about it like this , you might be right , it feels like the most appropriate reason , ig the silly use of skull emoji confused me a bit
1:57:30 you can see the exact moment Dr.Mike realises that he's speaking with someone who's whole career journey was about helping the people who need it. Dr.K is a true diamond to humanity.
I can usually listen to a podcast in the background. But I constantly had to rewind, pause, think, and focus really hard on this one. I started listening to this at 6AM and it really got my brain going for the rest of the day! We need more guests like him!
I adore Dr. K
Go watch his content. He's fantastic!
Dr. K's lectures helped me realize I probably had ADHD and the depth of detail in them and his interviews allowed me to trace back my life circumstances and where and how I suffered.
After that I was able to create an accurate history for my doctor to look over and he referred me to a psychiatrist who did a full analysis to conclude I have innatentive adhd.
I have made staggering advances in my life, behavior and perspectives because of this man.
I love how when they ask each other questions, it's always in the context of understanding the other person's *position* rather than a questioning of the others *character.* Then, they share clarifying statements to make sure that they understand the other's position properly before potentially challenging it. This is a great showcase of the genuine respect, empathy, and self-awareness it takes to have important yet difficult dialogue. These guys are incredible examples!
I agree. This is how a conversation is supposed to be conducted. If only politicians were as emotionally and intellectually mature and grounded. And able to shelve their egos,like these two.
Exactly! Healthy debate at it's finest!
I couldnt have worded a comment better than this, it is exactly what I was thinking!
Right!! Not just asking questions for the sake of being right or appearing right!?
I don't think that actually could have easily gotten very dark very quickly. Is what I saw was a narcissistic physical health doctor. Question everything through a completely scientific lens in a way that was actually quite shall we say arrogant. Where do his thoughts come from he could not want think in a way that was not physical. This means that he's falling off of a false axiomatic truth. Which is that he is treating that everything is physical as an axiomatic. Basically in this instance there is no spiritual side is not an established axiomatic truth nothing in science can be truly axiomatic outside of math. So he's treating there is no spiritual side as if it is axiomatic mathematical truth and does not need to be questioned. My question for Dr Mike is can you really ask yourself if a spiritual thing or things outside of science that we currently know also exist and affect us. Can you bring it to your in your ideology but maybe there is something more than what you currently know scientifically. Also can you Doctor Mike ask yourself if there's something more to your brain than neurons firing. Because there's something missing to neurons firing. Because we most people in consciousness research I'm starting to find things that are not neurons firing.
As a British Indian who grew up in an Indian spiritual school, I practiced meditation and breathing practices but eventually transitioned into major scepticism about anything spiritual since adulthood. This conversation was incredibly informative and therapeutic to see both sides of perspectives represented. Thank you for reminding me to remain respectfully open-minded while still asking the right questions
Fantastic! Thanks for sharing!
A similar thing happened to me, I hated every 'guru' for a while, but after some hardship I used some methods that were taught, (meditation and avoiding certain foods) and now I think if you find something useful take it but don't be blinded.
Lol and now the west will re market dhyaan/ meditation as “mindfulness” to you and you’ll gobble that shiz up
This is interesting. I grew up in Chinese martial arts environment with Qi Gong practitioners making regular appearances. The result was that the familiarity with this world and the colourful characters that occupy this space have made me very sceptical about the practices themselves. Is it for similar reasons in your case that you have developed the scepticism?
As a Sri Lankan Buddhist I'm simultaneously the biggest proponent of meditation and the biggest skeptic of Ayurveda.
Ngl, the middle section of this conversation stressed me out-but I’m still glad I listened to it. I follow both of these channels and I love seeing professionals debate nuance in their field of expertise. Giving ground, rephrasing for clarity, and even changing perspectives increases credibility in my book. I think we all benefitted from this discussion.
for a Harvard trained medical doctor i was genuinely confused by his willingness to practice alternative medicine in private practice but I'm also pleasantly surprised by his brutal honesty regarding the effectiveness and lack of research. not exactly sure what to take away from this conversation but I guess if his patients are satisfied and improving then who am I to judge. Also, I do think psychiatry is one of the few medical specialties where "alternative" medicine and treatments are worth being explored. Every single other medical specialty has made significant advancements in their ability to treat pathologies related to their domain via modern medicine besides psychiatiry. we have a growing mental health crisis in the world by all objective metrics and if modern medicine is incapable of treating the mind, perhaps alternative medicine or a mix of both is worth considering.
I think we can learn about how certain practices (religious, cultural, non scientific) can have positive effects on people's health although we shouldn't throw away empirical medicine and we need to learn to discern what works and doesn't. It's sounds simple, but it's something of great complexity.
@@baonemogomotsi7138 definitely
Before earning his medical degree, he left school to become a monk in India. After some time doing that, he figured it wasn't for him but learned a lot and would later go on to get his Harvard degree after working there. Really interesting history he has uploaded somewhere I am sure. So it was more so the flip of what you said by applying what he learned as a monk to what he later learned as a psychiatrist. And importantly, that he saw it worked.
It's important to differentiate between "does not work" and "does not have enough testing to prove that it works". They are pretty much equivalent in most conversations, but not always.
A lot of "traditional medicine" is either based on tradition-based "practices/recipes" or just equating correlation to causation. For example, people have been smearing certain plant pastes onto wounds to "speed up healing" since the Stone Age, or maybe even before that. No one knew why it worked. They just knew that it worked. It's not until "alchemy" that people discovered the properties of certain naturally occurring or artificially created materials. And it's not until "chemistry" that people isolated and recombined these into drugs and supplements, some of which are still not government-approved, just tolerated.
Ayurveda (speaking specifically about the non-scammers) has a huge "proof problem". People "know" that it works because empirically it's been working for thousands of years. But this empirical testing was never recorded, and the actual expected interactions are not scientifically tested. We don't know what the edge cases are, or how to tailor Ayurvedic medicine. Ayurveda also does not have very well-established diagnostic tools or mechanisms, which prevents it from being its own ecosystem.
Scammers can exploit this "proof problem" by relying on people's faith in "natural remedies", which they can simply say "don't need proof because we've been doing it this way for a thousand years". Until Ayurveda can undergo rigorous scientific analysis to not just explain itself but also devise new interactions and methods, it remains a domain where scammers are a plague.
In the end, Ayurveda is also a cautionary tale for "modern medicine" and the pharmaceutical industry. Don't try to shut out knowledge and innovation, and don't try to get away with badly tested medical practices and pseudoscience. Once the science behind medicine is closed off, people will start relying on faith in medicine and doctors. And faith is extremely easy for scammers to exploit.
If I can add my own drop in the bucket.
When I first talked to Psychiatry/Psychologist I was treated like a check list or just another body that was malfunctioning.
Listening to Dr.K, even though it’s disclaimer not medical advice. He talks to the mind/soul/ego/you differently. And it helped me feel better, more relaxed and more like a person, rather than a checklist.
39:35 so east has trouble admitting when they are wrong, and west has trouble admitting when east is right.
This was unexpectedly one of the most interesting conversations I've seen in a while. It touches on so many questions I have around intersections of science and spirituality and it was super interesting to see them contextualized in the subject of medicine in east vs west cultures. I was so impressed by the way you two carried this discourse. Really great, thank you so much for having and sharing this.
Or rods BBC ep
This is 1. a PHENOMENAL and important conversation and 2. A PERFECT encapsulation of the long standing East Vs. West conflict and the inability to see the truth in both. Dr. Mike mentions being careful not to "throw the baby out with the bath water" but then proceeds to do so repetitiously with Eastern medicine. He is, of course, brilliant and I'm a HUGE fan. But one of my biggest gripes with the West and our approach to life is the inability to see the wisdom and truth in the East and adapt it to our systems and communities.
The fact is that we do use "eastern medicine." ANd I put it in quotes because humans have been using plants to try and cure a disease. The west may not have used "mindfullness" as much pre-modern medicine.
Western medicine takes the best research we have and adapts it.
Eastern medicine doesn't. It keeps to it's tradition in spite of research saying it doesn't work or has no effect.
Beautifully said
If ayurveda works, then that is new western medicine. Right? Western medicine is nothing but scientific medicine. Everything should be scientific. Why call it west, east. If stuff works it's ours.
Ayurveda was an ancient attempts to treat our diseases. It's a stepping stone for evolution of new western medicine.
To be fair, the East does this too. There are many practices in Eastern medicine that have been seen as non-affected and harmful tested by scientific researchers in East Asia who are putting forth this type of proof but are ignored mainly due to social pressures as well as said governments trying to use these practices as propaganda pieces rather than to treat the health of their citizens. It goes both ways.
And Western medicine isn’t much better. Especially since a lot of it can be bought with opinions $$$. It is profit driven and loaded with many side effects. Every problem is looked at as a new condition/disease and every solution is given with a pill, the never-ending cycle.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the turning point of how Dr. K noticed the unintended confrontational tension that was building up & didn't immediately assume negative things & go on to make probably wrong conclusions. Rather he got curious to actually understand the blockade in the communication was & he handled it so well that it turned out to be insightful to both of them, in that thay both got the opportunity to realise the underlying assumptions/cause of why they were struggling to connect❤that's real professional communication❤ & I love it!
I commend u both for handling it this way & sharing with us the benefit of your respective insights & expertise in both worldviews on medicine. Even if this was the only portion someone watched it would be a wonderful lesson to take on effective communication for life💖. Thanks
This was not a heated convo. It was a very healthy, thoughtful convo between people who - while neither is perfect in any way -- both have educated, high-level perspectives and knowledge and experience in this area. So it is the type of convo we should continue to have on this platform. Not just echo chambers and syndicated propagandas. Thank you to both Dr K. HealthGamerGG and Dr. Mike.
the guy who said it was heated was very likely joking
@@user-kq2we1ex3hgive up your bias and u will see where is he coming from. Scientific evidence vs theory was a key highlight and it is biased yet insightful cause eventually biases are inevitable they are the core of our thoughts.
Like you said biases are inevitable. What's truly important is to be self aware of your own biases and be able to adapt to new knowledge even if that knowledge goes against your bias. @@InsaneSibs
A real doctor vs. a pseudo-scientific ''doctor.'' Psychology is just pseudo-scientific nonsense... But hey, if it helps some people, I'm all for it...
He might be seen as annoying because he was giving real pushback. It's pretty clear that even Dr.K even agrees that 90% of it is garbage. In that case, why would we support it? I see no difference between a cult or religion and this alternative medicine. Both arent reliable. We need to stick with what is proven not fairytales@@user-kq2we1ex3h
Is Dr Mike in his socks and Dr. K sitting crisscross in his chair? This is an amazing conversation in every way! Love it!
And then it allowed Dr K to tickle Dr Mike's foot to help him demonstrate a concept which was delightful.
indeed , its a cultural thing for us indians , we believe its the best way of sitting in most scenarios ,may it be meditation or even while having lunch (/duration after that) we believe it helps in better digestion and is little more efficient etc
@@paramrmI've seen other guests do it too
@@itsbeccawhen did he tickle Dr Mike's foot? 😂
@@sommermcdaniel9723i think it's after the half way mark when they're discussing the origin of thoughts and where they come from... Dr K was tickling his foot while asking that to demonstrate how we really don't have much explanation by modern science on the origin of thoughts and it's all built on a bunch of hypotheses which is why alternate forms of medicine shouldn't be completely dismissed as they take a more wholistic approach
this is the single best podcast i have ever/watched listened to. after seeing so many people who dont know what they are talking about and just shouting at eachother this has been a breath of fresh air. i hope you guys do it again!
YO!!! What a great collaboration, loved you on Dr. K's podcast, can't wait to watch this!!
I am also a physician working in new York and i started watching your conversations recently and when i say it has helped me a lot with my communication with my patients.
I am not overstating.
Thanks a lot @doctor mike
In what way?
Amazing work that you’ve adapted what you’ve seen with Dr.Mike communication skills and have applied it to your own practice. I love that even though we can already be extremely knowledgable, there is always something new to learn and apply to ourselves!
Mike is a bigot!
In what way? R u into family medicine?
@@brotherhood11111 internal medicine
Really want a part two!
I generally can't bring myself to consume a two hour podcast in one go, so I had fully expected to start it, pause somewhere in the middle and then come back to it later, but as I started listening to this amazing conversation, I realised I was completely hooked and ended up listening to it without a single pause.
I loved the way you both handled this topic that both clearly had different strong opinions about.
Love both of these guys.. this is a textbook example of one man who is high in neuroticism and one who is high in openness and how they can be on the same team but have very different opinions and approaches.
Which one is high in neuroticism?
true , Dr mike was a little touchy about it without actually learning about it.
@@charlieosko4151of course, Dr Mike
@@amanofculture4845he said at the beginning he’s trying to ask the questions to keep the conversation going
Mike @@charlieosko4151
Why can't more of TH-cam and conversations be like this.
Because people's egos get in the way. 😊 Dr. K has lots of videos about on ego and talks about it a lot. It's very interesting
Probably because most of TH-cam aren't scientists. Or science-based practitioners or thinkers.
I am a Paramedic myself. And I have conversations like this with other Paramedics all the time. (I know that we aren't scientists, but our profession is science-based, and we do practice evidence-based medicine at the pre-hospital level. So our approach to conversations or "arguments" mirror that of actual scientists and scientist-level people.)
If more people had scientific mindsets, more conversational disagreements would go this way.
@@BrotherKnowledge. While I feel like that's partially true, I think the more important part is dismantling your biases and ego, and recognizing the emotional state of the conversation. There are a lot of people with scientific mindsets and backgrounds that are far more concerned on "winning" the argument rather than understanding the person they are talking to. Especially when the other person doesn't share their academic background.
@@Ser_Lefty
Yeah, you aren't wrong there. Rarely is there a single solution to a multifaceted problem. The human element alone makes this issue an issue that would have to be addressed with varied solutions since various challenges, like biases, egos, personalities, emotional maturity, etc., would hamper progress towards more broad, effective discord.
I agree with you.
Cause not enough elevated emotions, too many facts and not enough egos = less clicks ;)
This could be an immensely important duo -- I would absolutely love a weekly or monthly podcast between you two, and I have to imagine so would your respective audiences.
Me too!
For real!!!
Absolutely! I would love it!
I’d hope Dr K would decline something like this. This was painful to watch.
@@cyndijohnson5473 why so? They both seemed to enjoy it
Never heard of Dr. K and don't know much about Ayurvedic medicine, but hats off to him for being super chill through this whole conversation. Mad respect. I love Dr. Mike, but his approach came across as pretty antagonistic for a big chunk of this. The points of mutually open discussions were great. I could see this going in a different direction if Dr. K hadn't kept his cool. Great job.
That’s bc in the US there is alot of people who prey on people through this “holistic” medicine and give people false hope that ends up killing peoples which is why it angers him
I don't know if I would call it antagonistic, he's highly sceptical and critical to Dr. K's views and ideas, and calls him out on it.
Mike himself said it was antagonistic. This was one time where Dr. K really had to get deep in order to explain his thought process.@indeedsnusen
It was antagonistic in the sense that it wasn't just a mutual discussion or interview, but an excited debate at points. You can see the point where Dr Mike can't believe his colleague is saying nonsense. And then Dr K stops and asked him what's going on, and Mike realizes that he has a deep-seated bias against eastern practitioners as charlatans. He realizes his colleague is not that and then they start over from common ground. It's obv that Dr K does this every day.
@morganseppy5180 Dr. K is a psychiatrist so he took it well. The point of the matter is that over the discourse it started antagonistic and @indeedsnusen was claiming it wasn't. By the end I agree it ended respectfully but Dr.K won this 'debate' as he kept his cool better.
One of my favourite conversations in a long time. Would love to see continue collaboration between two of my favourite doctors turned educators for the internet age over the long-term. Thank you both for your insights, wisdom, and pushing to seek clarity & truth, and for showcasing how to disagree respectfully and professionally.
I love how both of them were so respectful amd so open minded to try to understand where the other was coming from and make sure they were being understoos correctly
Not sure if we watched the same video. You were right with this maybe in the latter part of the video. I believe Dr. Mike in his pursuit to have all the information laid out in plain English for the general audience that watches, lost himself a bit in his bias until the round up and reassessment happened.
That’s just my bias of what I saw as a viewer who likes to watch 50/50 conversations.
@@meeddzzzI thought he was a little biased, but that makes sense. There's other episodes where he has to essentially debate kooks on basic medical knowledge, and on top of that he hasn't studied ayurveda. So we got a medical practice that he has no clue about, which he's told us 90% wrong by Dr k, obviously he's be iffy on it.
@@bluefalcon6356then, since he knew nothing of the topic, he should have listened and asked for info,.not for others to confirm his point of view. It seemed very immature from him. And some comments even slightly racist
I really wish more "debates" were this focused on good argumentation and good faith. This was a wonderful watch. ❤
There was a lot of good faith in this discussion which I appreciated, but I don't think there was enough good argumentation. As Dr. Mike wasn't fully equipped to deal with some of the rhetorical manipulation and sophistry that Dr. K indulged at parts of this discussion.
Dr. K never gave a good reason for Ayurvedic practices to not have the same standards of evidence applied to them as western medicine. His objections were purely ideological ("it's antithetical," "it's cultural appropriation" etc.) and if he's as concerned as he says he is that Ayurvedic practices might just be inducing the placebo effect, he should want randomised controlled tests to be applied to Ayurvedic practices. As that is the only way you can tell if they are anything more than just induction of the placebo effect.
This is supported by Dr K. establishing an incorrect definition of what a placebo is. A placebo is not "a treatment where we don't understand the underlying mechanism," that definition is backwards. A placebo is something that triggers the placebo effect, and in the vast majority of cases we KNOW that it simply doesn't have an underlying mechanism. By establishing this incorrect definition Dr. K was able to make room to speculate that Ayurvedic medicine has mysterious underlying mechanisms we don't understand. When the actual fact is there is no significant evidence that Ayurvedic practices are anything more than the induction of the placebo effect. And there never will be any significant evidence unless the RCT studies that Dr K. opposes are applied to Ayurvedic practices.
Dr. Mike did very well to hold his own against an Harvard educated individual who is clearly very experienced in the art of debate and rhetoric. But Dr. K said a number of problematic things that were not challenged properly because Dr. Mike is not as experienced in that field.
Still, it was a fascinating discussion and I'm immensely grateful to have had the privilege of watching it.
This was a Convo not a debate. Sadly most Public Debates these days take place between someone who is 80% Objectively right, and someone who is wrong. In this case a Debate is a stage performance. You don't debate to convince your opponent, you are responsible for debating the facts to convince people WATCHING the debate.
@@chrissmeaton7127great points!! It should be requisite to be a physician to know placebo, placebo effect, hypnotherapy, correlation and causation.
@@chrissmeaton7127 Seems like Dr. K would happily apply the same standards of evidence for Ayurvedic vs allopathic medicine if it was possible. It's just not possible right now because scientific research, esp. in the field of medicine, takes time to do properly. In other words, his biggest justification is that it's too slow, and there's too many people out there that would lose out on what he believes to be an effective (even anecdoctally) treatment while they suffer in the mean time.
@@WingSlaze Which works as an explanation for why he prefers to work as a boots on the ground physician rather than in a research capacity (although an argument could be made that a focus on research stands to help far more people in the long run).
It doesn't work as an objection to subjecting these practices to RCT studies. Nor do I think Dr. K used this fact that way during this discussion.
Nurse here . Evidenced based practice is key to consistency overall BUT human beings are WHOLE beings that include emotional, mental and spiritual needs . We cannot treat ONLY a body we must treat the WHOLE person for best outcomes . Period.
Fully agree with you. I'm a gp doctor too and I've experienced this myself
Thank you. As a patient, I appreciate medical professionals like you.
But mindfulness has evidence. Studies have been done where scans are taken of the brains of people who meditate vs those who don't. There is also anecdotal evidence which demonstrates that people who meditate and practice mindfulness have overall better medical outcomes than those who don't. I don't see how mindfulness can be regulated though because it is also a religious practice.
RN here also, agreed 😊
Evidence based is important, but even in the field of research with complex chemical systems we don't make assumptions based on what we put in. We review differences between each set of experiments to account for differences. That isn't emotion, it is the scientific method and why standards, controls, etc are important. Unfortunately I have been misdiagnosed multiple times by doctors. Complacency is a real thing and from a scientific perspective it is something people in the medical field should check themselves on when diagnosing.
One small correction: at 1:14:02 Dr.K mentioned 'Charaka' Samahita, and not 'Garga' Samhita(in the subtitles, Garga has been mentioned instead of Charaka.) both are different.
Please update it, it is misleading.
Sage Charaka is father of ayurvedic medicine, and 'Samhita' loosely translates to 'compilation of texts'.
'Charaka Samhita' is the medical texts compiled by his students, which were based on Sage Charaka's findings and knowledge.
Second Correction: at 1:15:36 and 1:16:19 Again in the subtitles, it is 'Parampara' not 'Barambara'.
Its not medicine, who cares. The guy is a dangerous fraud
Yes you are correct
I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Dr. K a year or so ago, and he is one of the nicest people aswell as brought a lot of insight to the everyday mental health struggles. I love when you two work on stuff together, great convo
I am not a health professional what so ever, but this was such a CLASS about conversation and debate.
I find that when we talk to people that we even slightly disagree (or don't understand), most times we just want to feel that we are right or that we know more than the other, instead of actually listening and just talking really through questions and doubts. I include myself in this. And this conversation was so amazing exactly because I didn't feel like you were trying to win, I felt like I was watching two people talking about something that both really dominate and are very interested on.
Beyond the great theme of the conversation, the conversation itself was amazing.
(And also great practice as a English listening exercise lol)
sorry if my comment is a bit confusing, english is not my first language!
hey just wanted to say that your comment made perfect sense and was actually written better than a lot of commenters with English as their first and only language
It'a not about being right or wrong but reaching right conclusions and dismenteling the wrong
Very well said ❤
This interview was seriously amazing. As someone who works in the healthcare profession (Western Medicine) but grew up with ideas and notions of Eastern Medicine, the conversation between these two was incredible. Dr. Mike is rightfully insistent on EBP, but Dr. K brings up how spirituality and the related potential undiscovered mechanisms may inevitably alter how individuals and patients receive and respond to treatment, AND it ties in perfectly with The Art of Medicine!
Dr. K really hit it home for me when he discussed how life altering the impact of mental health illness can be (whether it be acute or chronic). Thank you for sharing some insight on your own personal values for choosing clinical over academia. It was extremely heart warming to hear how important your patients are to you!
Thanks Dr. Mike for hosting such interesting and invigorating conversations and always remaining so respectful.
NOTHING is spiritual, its all placebo
Meditation have saved so many lives, families, careers, entire communities, but because west doesn’t understand it or can quantify it, it dismisses vast majority of it wholesale. There’s so much undiscovered treasure u guys have no idea.
@@RojaJaneman Give me a single source that shows that meditation has "saved so many lives". I'll wait
@@jimbeam8338 ignorant much??
@@Learner5555 Give me a source. Prove it
What a sparring. Dr. Mike seems to not understand or respect psychiatry, psychology or psychotherapy and what we do as mental health practitioners it seems...Very entertaining no punches pulled I like both of them. Very smart.
As someone who just matched into Family Medicine and is about to embark on the their journey of learning more of the “art” of Medicine this conversation was so enlightening. Medical School was truly disease focused. Having just gone through this initial foray into learning allopathic medicine, I’ve felt this conflict with the application of this type of medicine from an individual perspective.
I do agree with Dr. Mike’s point about continuing down the path of empirical western medicine with our RCTs and the rest and working our way down to the individual but Dr. K brings in potent points about trying the bottom-up approach (Individual to population) and how it can be a way of acquiring more beneficial modalities (supported by evidence) of treatments for patients. Hope those sentiments make sense.
The conversation in this podcast was heady and very abstract but the western scientific tradition itself developed from such conversations. We need more conversations like these!
why does this read like a chat gpt response 😂 I don’t disagree tho
That stung a little since writing is a hobby of mine but I assume you meant no harm in it. I’m gonna choose to take that as a compliment 🥲since I wrote this off the top of my head and then edited it a few hours later haha
Dr K actually specifically said it isn't an individual to population approach
@@yoho3618 I genuinely appreciate and respect your writing style and hope you continue continuing. ❤️ It's coherent, refreshing, and most importantly impassioned. 😊
@@yoho3618it was very easy to understand with nothing unnecessary added so no need to overthink things
I'm a longtime follower of both doctors. I don't know anything about ayurveda but I did do some of the meditation exercises from Dr. k, and I had life changing mental breakthroughs during them. It worked better than any psychotherapy or antidepressant I have ever tried. There is something working here that is worth exploring.
Why are you leaving this same comment on everyone's comments? What are you looking for as a response?
I think if having an open mind helps people heal and thrive, more people need to stop clutching their pearls.
@@SilverFlame819 this is a confusing thread
What an awesome conversation this was. I didn't know Dr. K knew this much about vedas and stuff and I know there was still a ton left to unpack as well. I could have listened to 2-3 more hours of this stuff. Man even in the past our ancestors had so much knowledge and information that we just lost, what a tragedy.
Genuinely one of the best podcasts I’ve listened too!! As an anthropology major this was very exciting for me, to understand the cultural distinction in how scientific methods are run / seen as efficient is absolutely different between East and west, that is the starting point, to look at all of it, critique as the East as Dr K does, and Dr Mike does for the west. To recognize how, and why different viewpoints exist. This is the most anthropological conversation I’ve ever seen within two popular doctors. An immaculate interview that should be studied!! :))
Im so glad Dr. K took a minute to be like "hold on, what's this tension here?" because its been easy to read for a lot of it that Doctor Mike seemed to come from a place of challenging and discrediting Ayurvedic medicine as opposed to learning more about it. Which, knowing what i know about Doctor Mike's stance on medical misinformation and snake oil salesmen *totally* makes sense. And being from a Western mindset myself, I can see where Doctor Mike was struggling I think. Im still not done watching it, but I can see what Dr. K is trying to say that seems to be getting confused/misinterpreted by Doctor Mike because it is hard to put away the population-based Western medicine perspective when trying to wrap my mind around understanding Ayurvedic medication and the value that it can bring. The example of the three depression subtypes and the way depression manifests in Earth, Wind, or Fire types was really impactful to how I was able to start understanding Dr. K's points.
Im so happy this conversation happened. ❤
Love Dr. Mike but he wasn't even listening to what Dr. K was saying he spent most of the time trying to argue. There isn't 90% issues with Ayurvedic medicine.. it is not understood by the West. We are moving toward the Eastern ways of doing things. This podcast highlighted how narrow minded Dr. M truly is. Was saddened
@@colouredlioness2199I think you didn’t see the discussion all the way through. There were points where they both made concessions - although I do think Dr. Mike was occasionally trying to defend against arguments that weren’t made.
Many of first gen pharma ie natural was stolen patents of ayurvedic medicines .there are many patent cases still pending while all these yrs while pharma has now come to 3rd gen medicines .and i say this as a western medicine practitioner
@@colouredlioness2199exactly. His true self
YES - I've been arguing with the TV as I've listened to this podcast lol. He is a brilliant psychiatrist- Dr. Mike isn't seeing eye to eye with him like at all in this vid. Hope that improves in the future. It didn't have to be a "debate" lol- I watch a lot of Huberman podcasts though so I really like how he talks to guests.
I absolutely loved this! I just finished medical school and am starting residency. There has been this massive disconnect between western medicine and eastern medicine in my culture. Growing up, we learned to meditate and how it can change our minds and the different ways to breathe. Then I came to medical school and was basically told that it's all rubbish. This conversation has been enlightening for me, in the sense that there can be a blend of both.
Congratulations on completing Medical school! I am very proud of you and I hope I can get into Medical school in the future! I wish you the best of luck in Residency, I know it is very difficult 🎉
I have worked in the medical field for around 25 years, I think this is shifting as it becomes harder to ignore the benefit of more alternative approaches/therapies become more mainstream
]]))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))])])))9)99]]))]))))])))))))9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))9⁹0😊😊😊😊
Eastern medicine is helpful. I grew up on Western. Our current "evidence based" system is really our infrastructure of medicine. Which has it's positive, but we've had government regulations to help protect patients & research volunteers.
It's like the current automobile industry (EV, Hybrid, etc.) Drug companies will lobby & fund research to support their interests.
Show me the $$$. I feel that medicine is focused in making $$$ rather than best treatments for a patient. If you have $$$, then you can get alternative treatments.
This is the only reason why they are opposing eastern medicine the money,if doctors really care about patients thn they will definitely think about collaborating these two beautiful perspective of treatment and ayurveda is not only about meditation
Truth me it's alot more.. i am an Ayurvedic physician.
I accidentally clicked the notification. I’ve never been this early for one of his interviews. This is great.
Same lol
Same lol
Same lol
Same lol
Same lol
Dr Mike's visit on Healthy Gamer was one of my favorites and I was so glad to discover this one. I had no expectation that this would be the kind of conversation but I'm so glad it was. You can really see the difference from who's hosting. Great approaches from both. Fascinating stuff.
This is SUCH a valuable piece of medical "documentation." Dr. K's argument about removing the theoretical framework and mechanism behind the practices that Western medicine are extracting from Eastern medicines was absolutely brilliant. I would love to hear so much more about this.
More about this from Dr K.*
Not others, just Dr K. Trust me that rabbit hole is not one you want to do down. It has such great characters arguments and beliefs that make you lose braincells.
It's really cool. It's the kind of thing we (hopefully) try to learn when studying epistemology or, more broadly, philosophy of science - being aware of different methodologies and practices as a way to not only be open to knowledge exchange but also to be conscious of the values and structures in your own system so you can be more mindful of who benefits from them, as well as avoid dismissing/harming other people. The problem is that it's hard to have a conversation out there with this in mind without coming across charlatans or close-minded douchebags...
The west copies so much from India and doesn't even give it credit. But when you know the original has Sanskrit names, you know where its from and what the truth is. Huberman copies a lot of yogic practices and pretends he came up with them. its pathetic
I@ThePreityEffect is it not possible for two people to come up with the same idea though?
If there is blatant evidence of copying, then I would agree with you, but convergent ideas can happen much like how convergent evolution happens.
@@ThePreityEffect based on your other comments you seem to be an Indian supremacist... I no longer think there is a point in talking to you
Wow, this is by far one of the best podcast episodes I've ever seen. Such an interesting and important conversation. The disagreements and misunderstandings were handled so well by both dr.s, really a masterclass of polite yet poignant discourse and how to ask good questions and probe people without being aggressive and judgemental. Awesome stuff, thanks for sharing it with us :)
This was excellent. I was really struggling in the first half as I felt that Mike had a point to prove. I love how Dr K addressed it and moved the conversation to areas that allowed more of the ideas to be explored, while Mike pivoted his approach to the conversation.
I thought this was such an informative exploration, I just want to hear so much more.
I LOVE that Mike acknowledged that we get stuck on nomenclature when that was part of the challenge in the first half of the podcast in some ways.
My brain feels zingy after listening to this.
Yeah, Dr Mike made it really difficult to listen through this
He made what I thought was going to be an interview plus conversation into an interrogation plus conversation.
That’s good that it gets better cause im in the first half and im getting tired of Dr Mike asking over and over the same questions to which he got answers to already and then he’d ask another question in a way that ignores the prior answer given.
Cause he approaches in the beginning this convo like “you think Ayurveda is be all and you defend all of it” cause he himself seems to have this all or nothing view on types of medicines. Which is not the problem of Dr K, he admits his preference of Western medicine for obvious reasons but also he’s capable of seeing advantages in a different system especially as it offers something that WM lacks of. That Dr Mike perceives as a black and white argument and him fighting against this black and white argument turned to be exhausting. Cause he was basically projecting something else onto Dr K rather than to actually listen to what actually Dr K was saying.
Plus some of the things (eg sanitizing) that Dr Mike said was so ughhh in how euro-centric that was. As a historian and an anthropologist I facepalmed so hard I hurt my nose 😂😩😝😅
@@Tesis it was so frustrating. Did you make it to the end? What did you think?
What did he say about sanitizing?@@Tesis
The difference between these two doctors is the fact that Doctor Mike is over-relying on the biased English imperialistic scientific method by materialistic empiricism. While Doctor K is relying on both the biased English imperialistic scientific method by materialistic empiricism and the spiritual existence of human nature's soul (not supernatural).
What Doctor K is doing is basically the same of what the most sophisticated western psychologist (Carl Jung) was doing, which is called 2-way thinking: atomistic thinking and holistic thinking... that is to rely on the scientific method by materialistic empiricism while simultaneously applying the spiritual side of human nature's soul (psyche).
I could listen to a weekly podcast episode of these two. So much respect for both in their own right and how genuinely altruistic they come off. Most anyone else in their position would be fully focused on monetizing their position to the highest extent (I’m sure I in their position would do the same) yet here they both are and both show that what drives them is their care for truth, people, and a better world.
Thank you to both Dr. Mike and Dr. K who have both been large influences in my life.
1:21:20 is such a thoughtful and empathetic intervention from Dr.K. The whole conversation got back on track after that.
Totally agree!
I disagree, I felt that he kinda manipulated him there. There was a lot of flawed logic imo in the arguments about 10min beforethey reached that point in the convo. I felt that Mike felt like he was put on the spot after Dr. K‘s „intervention“ and felt as if he was being a bit mean or too agressive and then he started to leave the pure logical path and go down the rabbit hole a bit more. Im not saying he totally agreed on everything but I feel like he agreed to stuff that logically didn‘t make a lot of sense after this point in the convo. And btw I‘m a fan of Dr. K AND Dr. Mike 🙌🏼
I‘m just telling you what I think I noticed here.
well dr Mike was being quite disagreeable in the majority of the podcast, dr K on the other hand, did talk a lot but in a much calmer way. Calling it fraught, scam, cult, or fundamentally flawed is not the best choice of the words imo, that's why I think dr K was so ready to explain everything.Also dr Mike did try to challenge his beliefs while Dr K's career is partially based on the whole concept that he explained, I don't think that for an average person that would've been a comfortable situation, yet Alok handled it all like a pro, steady and ready to explain anything that needed to be explained @@Diego-pk4yf
@@wonderIland I agree, but this is just poor wording. In terms of what they actually said, I gotta give the „point“ to dr. Mike. He was on the side of science and reproducable mass applicable medicine.
@@Diego-pk4yf Everyone has a right to their opinion. I'm leaning towards dr K since he's e xperienced in both worlds and wants to contribute new stuff to medicine, while dr Mike is speaking in a way where Alok described his speech as not open minded, to that I agree with. Also Mike is being 100%: all for the western, and culturally and personally I'm not about that world, so I'm with Alok there.What rubbed me the wrong way was dr Mike saying *let's just not call it/forget about ayurveda* smth along those lines. That's definitely not the way it's supposed to go.
This is how to have a conversation with someone who's viewpoints do not align with yours fully. Super important learning going on!
Yes
@@nishthagupta1357no
From Dr K's point of view, yes. But from Dr Mike 's, I'm not sure but he seemed hell-bent on making Dr K seem to have different viewpoints, when they're actually similar
This is hands down the best conversation that I have heard in years. Thanks Dr Mike & Dr K !
This was an AMAZING conversation! Loved how the both of you were so open to hearing each other’s point of view and were able to find the common ground all while having an educated and informative discussion. Great stuff
I think they're talking about two different things in the same realm. Dr. Mike is talking about "how do we best learn about potential treatments of disease" and Dr. K is talking about "how do we interact with people seeking help".
And it makes sense because their professions are very different. Dr. Mike is trained to help treat physical ailments whereas Dr. K is trained to help treat mental ailments.
This! We have to take into account Dr. Mike does not have a view point beyond western glasses
I don't think that is true. I think Dr Mike simply wanted examples of how Ayurvedic medicine is actually beneficial and hopefully how we can, in the future, better understand it. He simply is trying to find a way to implement it safely without leaving a window open for snake oil salesmen who will use the current opaqueness of the art as a cover for selling BS. I don't think he was trying to be hostile, I think he was just looking for answers.
@kevinmartorano5780 Yeah but he looked hostile towards it at some point and I feel like Dr k should have given more examples about it how it helped how there are already so many scientific studies, and it's hard for Dr Mike to understand cause western is all he knows about but on other hand Dr k or let's say ayurved practitioner knows both so it's like communication gap
@@MissTubeMS yeah there definitely was a feeling of hostility at a point, but I think it was more frustration at having an expert sitting next to you and wanting specifics because so far you have only gotten b.s. from your other interactions. I know I have had similar issues where I want to be proven wrong but I am only given either "facts" that are immediately prove-able as wrong, or so little detail that there isnt anything actionable learned from the conversation. I found that as they got into more specifics later in the conversation the feeling of hostility ebbed.
Amazing amazing amazing. Both of you are such knowledgeable, respectful, high IQ and EQ individuals who both put out such valuable perspectives. There NEEDS to be multiple Dr K + Dr Mike podcasts. I will literally watch an entire series of podcasts of you two having such thoughtful conversations and even just being chill because you two are clearly chill and normal people who seem to vibe well anyhow.
Such high iq 🎉
I wholeheartedly agree with wanting more of this collab! Two of my favorite TH-camrs having intelligent, informed discourse on topics I'm interested in and which are relevant to both my personal and professional lives - MOAR PLZZZZZ!!!1!! 🤩
A podcast series between Mike and Dr. K NEEDS TO HAPPEN
This!
EQ is woo woo mumbo jumbo
This conversation really shows how much western and eastern consciousness is largely not overlapping. One is fragmented and mechanistic and the other is holistic. Ayurvedic medicine isn't a system of treatments for specific conditions, but a way of supporting the body in a holistic way to heal itself. Each herb works in so many ways and depends on the body that receives it.
This is one of the most enthralling discussions I have seen in such a long time. My lord this is fun to watch. Wish I had popcorn right now. 🍿
I want my life to be filled with these conversations.
Love Dr Mike but the “pure excitement” in an argument that had ME on the edge of my seat, this man needs to join a debate team
That is easily the longest pod I've ever sat through and I would happily do so again. What a great conversation to listen to. I love being involved in a passionate conversation with someone and then having that moment of realisation that we're technically arguing for the same thing just coming at it from different angles, it's so important to have your preconceived notions challenged.
This was a great discussion! I've never heard about HealthyGamer until now. Your questions and counter points were great, and Dr. Kanojia's ability to answer them honestly with great explanations kept me engaged the whole time. Especially since as Dr. K put it, he mainly agrees with you and is usually stating your same concerns at Ayurveda conferences. IMO, his analogy of the importance of understanding microbiology for penicillin was an insightful comparison for seeking to understand ayurveda as a whole to avoid pitfalls and find further therapeutic options
Coming from a family of ayurvedic doctors and studying modern medicine myself I was able to relate a lot with the constant banter between the two experts here. Tbh, all the questions Dr. Mike asked Dr. K did come to my mind growing up but this podcast just clarified so much of what was unanswered for me. Thanks so much for this content Dr. Mike! ❤❤❤
@user-jx3kg7ve1m they're world is collapsing so relax.
@user-jx3kg7ve1m... no one is stealing anything. Appropriation in therapeutic techniques and rediscovering some of the methodologies used in ayurveda yes, sometimes. It is a fact that Western medicine is faster, more reliable and has better results. This is the reason it's so popular. This episode brought up the point again and again though that ayurveda isn't infallible and the main problem with it is that most practioners aren't open to rigorous critical analysis. You're wrong if your takeaway is that it's being "stolen". We should be encouraging both types of doctors to learn from the bests of the other field to get better results in both
@user-jx3kg7ve1mModern scientific community doesn't steal anything. Science is all about looking at evidence and developing things using technology. How do you think medicine evolved? It all evolved from ancient practices.
@@deepakhiremath6171 it doesn't technically steal anything but if it forgets to mention where it came from and only takes some parts while excluding to mention the spirituality the original approach was developed with, that can well be perceived as a form of cultural appropriation. Simply because the modern medicine is a product of the west and the west has colonised and exploited the rest of the planet (and still does in many ways until today), including India for centuries.
It doesn't matter if you as a westerner see it as an innocent scientific method. What matters is how people of that culture see it and perceive it.
@@deepakhiremath6171Stealing here means rebranding well known Hindu concepts to sever their connection to Hinduism and sell them as a western innovation. This is a way to steal credit and also discredit Hindu practices. Many ayurvedic practices have been adopted by modern medicine but ayurveda is still looked suspiciously because those things that are adopted, have had their connection to Ayurveda severed.
I am begging yall to do another one of these this was the most fascinating conversation and I learned so much! I’m definitely very ignorant of eastern medicine and wrote it off as all woo woo so this was… very cool to listen to
I love the fact that YT interrupted the part of the video where they discuss individual vs population care to serve me an ad on why I need a hair treatment personalized to me instead of generalized for the masses 😂
Aholes lol
Are you bald or something? Lol
So many ads 😢
😆
@@subhadramahanta452 fake medicine ayurveda. 😆
As an Indian living overseas who has critically analysed our spiritual path as a sceptic before I could start my journey this is the ultimate truth i needed to confirm my beliefs. I would go as far as calling Dr. K a modern day Adi Shankarachaya. Your work (dharma) is revolutionary. Thank you for being an inspiration.
Modern day Adi Shankara is a bit stretch 😅
@@akashnd5293 I'm sure there were people in those days that thought what Adi Shankaracharya was doing was a "bit stretch". I'm not giving him the spiritual status but his work is what we need in today's times. And none of us (not even the real gurus) can hold a debate like that. This reminded me of the debate between Adi Shankaracharya and Mandana Mishra. Although this was was just a glimpse.
I don’t think you have sufficient knowledge centering spirituality. And you have no idea who Adi Shankaracharya was. Dr. K and Shankaracharya worked in two completely different domains. I think you need to understand and know a lot more before you write comments like these. I know a few things and reading your comments, I can clearly see this is coming from someone who’s just starting out and only has surface-level information about topics 😅
About 45 minutes in now and this debate feels like the definition of "Unstoppable force meets an immovable object." 😅 Very entertaining to watch!
Until Dr K accuses Dr Mike to have a closed mind and then Dr Mike takes a more reconciliatory approach
They are both excellent communicators who aren't afraid of tackling a difficult conversation head on. Really cool duo to see in a conversation.
@@KetszercsipExactly! Until then the conversation was basically stagnant and it was going in circles about what Ayurveda is and how it is different from Western medicine. Dr. Mike definitely had some animosity towards Ayurveda, especially it's practitioners (who themselves don't do a good job of reconciliation with Western medicine practitioners I guess).
@@Ketszercsip Yes on the surface it does look like that. I do think that he directly tries to tackle the problem that Dr Mike is struggling with when he tries to "re-conciliate". I agree with his take that Dr. Mike had made up his mind on Ayurvedic medicine or had a hyptothesis that he wanted proven/disproven. Whereas, all Dr. K is trying to say and do is that there is something valuable in the teachings on Ayurveda/yoga etc. Looking at his history - he initially did learn eastern "medicine" but didn't agree with it and then went to medical school. He agrees that Ayurvedic medicine isn't reliable as it currently stands but he is pushing for western medicine to take lessons from it. Which it is finally doing with yogic techniques (breathing exercises, yoga poses etc). And to get that thought across to Dr. Mike, he had to diffuse the almost argumentative/heated conversation back to somewhere where both people are relaxed and open to listen to the other side. Atleast thats how i read that situation. YMMV
To add to that - Dr Mike actually says that him and Dr K see almost eye to eye if not exactly eye to eye on Ayurveda AFTER the whole "reconcilatory" conversation.
1:24:54 Dr. K digs down. Love this part because we see outcomes we don’t understand. Our brains have mechanisms worth investigating, but our approach using what we know comes up short. I am confident that the science behind how spirituality affects wellness can and will be more understood in the near future. We’re knocking at its door. We just have to know how to investigate it properly. The right questions will bring us there eventually.
I would never had dreamed that two people whose opinions I hold in VERY HIGH REGARD coming together in one video. I am in awe. Thank you both. Every day is a climb but at least what I learn from y'all helps me go up one rung at a time.
1:05:06 What an interesting perspective of medicine in practice. Eastern medicine prioritizes the effectiveness of a treatment for the individual versus western medicine is more utilitarian, prioritizing the ability of a treatment to be standardized for a society.
This changes the ethics of placebo treatment. It's unethical to systematize placebo treatment because on a large scale, it is not demonstrated to provide reliable benefits. But on an individual level, if a placebo can be tried on the patient, and if it resolves their symptoms without putting that individual at risk, it is actually unethical not to try.
This discussion was absolutely mind-blowing! I only wished i could have taken part in it as i have so many views and questions on the points they both raised. Absolute knock-out video guys! I look forward to a part two!
It's a shame mike blindly accepts what hes told by authorities
@@paulbarclay4114 Would you consider challenging someone on basically every point they disagree with "blindly accepting" something?
@@erikarnesen6052 i think basic logic and reasoning is important and mike has consistently shown he lacks the capacity for that
he blindly accepts what hes told, unless the information source is one hes told not to acccept, then he attacks it
Yeah if it were possible a monthly or twice yearly podcast with the two of them would be amazing.
@paulbarclay4114 that's a very interesting observation...
As a woman, with ADHD, that has had to deal with medications not being as effective on my period because lab testing JUST DOES NOT account for my hormonal cycle, and finding out most human trials are done on men because female hormone cycles "mess up the results," meaning that for half the population, medicine just wasn't made for us, this Ayurveda "person first, then lab" approach actually sounds like it could solve a LOT of the AFAB population's problems
Same! And in every environment I was in, where they saw me as a person first, I've made amazing progess in healing my mind :]
"Individual first" really resonated with me.
The problem which is part of why I wish there was a scientist in the room is that it isn't neccsarily like that in reality. Ayurveda claimed person first then lab often focuses on the culturally approved aspects of what is person first. It doesn't neccsarily increase for example the ammount of people undergoing individual trails of medications which appears to be what you are describing. Also of course, many people are in fact reluctant to undergo things that haven't been tested before which creates the weird spin off of this whole person first idea as you ultimately have to ask the question how are they establishing the relevent traits too.
I agree with your comment, but on a side note you could just say female instead of AFAB. AFAB sounds like a type of alien.
@@thelemurofmadagascar9183 saying "assigned female at birth" (afab) or "assigned male at birth" (amab) can be more appropriate when accounting for trans folk in a medical setting though. this way, the original commenter also encompassed trans men, nonbinary folk, etc etc who also struggle with periods or other afab-characteristic hormonal conditions :)
There’s not enough education on how to communicate for medical professionals. I have been focusing on healthy communication in my MSN classes.
Dr Mike is a master of communication. I’d love to know where he learned his skills (though I assume it was heavily influenced by his parents).
Dr Mike, I’d love if you could do a video or podcast episode focusing on this! 🙏🏻
This is very true.
It is very irrational of us to invest nearly a decade of training into many medical professionals and then not really teach them how to spread it. Waste of resources
@@Prometheus720 exactly!!
Yes- Dr. Mike would have made a fantastic journalist!
What I love about Dr. K is how he unpacks how the person is trying to manipulate the conversation
So I don't know anything about Ayurvedic medicine at all, but I just started reading a book called Fresh Banana Leaves by Dr. Jessica Hernandez and there is a section called invalidating our Indigeneity, which popped in my head when the discussion of the differences between Eastern and Western medicine came up. She writes about how her first hand experiences as an indigenous person is invalidated by professors, scientists, and researchers because it doesn't fit or follow linear way of thinking that Western scientific method follows. After watching some of the interactions, I completely understand what she is saying.
The so called 'differences' between eastern and western medicine are just not true. Western medicine once was also riddled with fantasy and fiction. The eastern part of the world also contributes to modern, scientific medicine.
Ayurveda is eastern pseudoscience just as homeopathy is western pseudoscience.
THIS!
But evidence is evidence. Doesn’t matter if it’s eastern or western.
But there are methods of collecting evidence.....some methods are available now that we're not there 60 yrs ago.....and more methods will be developed as time goes and then prove things that we don't see as "scientific" to day
For what I have experienced Ayurveda has been a prevention pf diseases rather than a cure
It is quite similar to homeopathy other than the fact it does not hurt you
When doctor K says "Does that make sense?"
and I'm like "No" and Mike is like "Yes"
and I'm all like "Well, guess we'll never understand."
And there were some things that didn't make sense to them that I understood, so that felt nice. Between their subsequent explanation/ elucidation, even if I was right about the info provided, I found that the interplay between my reaction and theirs and it actually added to a depth of my own understanding on multiple points.😊
I def had to replay some parts
😂
I think it's really valuable that we get two diverse perspectives that y'all gave us from two intelligent individuals. Thank you for doing this. Also appreciated your left-handed comment, Dr. Mike (as a lefty lol)
I was so happy to come across this discussion. I really enjoy BOTH of you, individually, and to hear you together was extra special! And, as usual, such an elevated conversation!
Dr.K is awesome! Thank you for sharing him :) I really enjoyed this ep. Listening to you both was how it feels being in my brain haha. Both had wonderful points that are true at different times, regardless, great info.
This was a masterpiece of an interview. I am very familiar and a huge fan of Dr. K, and have also seen a lot of hatred from people’s misperceptions of his work.
I love how Dr. Mike brought up those common misconceptions of Dr K’s work in a way that invited a true conversation seeking to understand each other point of view without an apparent agenda.
Both Dr. K and Dr. Mike were able to stay present, engaged, listen carefully, and challenge ideas in a way that invited healthy debate and seeking to understand instead of just seeking to be understood.
Dr. Mike, great podcast.
@user-jx3kg7ve1m Yoga-Nidra? nuh-uh, it's actually called NSDR /s
Dr Mikes agenda was very apparent. Hell, even Dr K pointed it out. Not that I mind since there needs to be a strong stance on this quackery already.
user-jx3kg7ve1m if you want to take that perspective then you could find a way to say that everything is stolen
Those misperceptions of course being people think he's actually valuable to any discussion when he's not.
@@humanoid8344 Why would you generalize that? the topic is very specific here. People who do these modern interpretations of ancient Indian yoga or ancient Chinese techniques of acupuncture do not give credit to it's original source. They are selective about the elements of ancient medicine and promote cherry picked items from these, only to make money, and end up bashing most other things in other cultures as regressive and backward.
I think this was a much needed conversation. I watch a lot of Dr. K/HealthyGamer content and have been wondering these same questions whenever Dr. K mentions Ayurveda and had or have many of the same suspicions or criticisms of Ayurveda from what I’ve heard living in the US all my life. Needless to say it’s been fascinating to hear this discussion and both of them did it with lots of respect and congeniality for one another. A rare thing on TH-cam in my opinion.
This is one of the best debates I’ve heard in a while. Irrespective of the topic, the way the arguments were constructed, disagreements were exchanged, is a great example of how debates must happen!
I got immense respect for Dr. Mike after this. It was a healthier version of me discussing the same issue with my brother. And I missed someone asking about the flip side so that I can discusss the collective struggle. It completed my gestalt. Thank you Dr. Mike.
Dr. K raised some genuine issues in research publications that don't allow Indigenous sciences to be represented well. I would love to read that it was Yoga nidra and Nadi shodan or Hatha Yoga rather than some clinical technique.
Most importantly, as a therapist, I agree that we are not trained to address clients as human beings going through life processes. I have noticed much more value in mentoring than in clinical therapy during my practice.
This was an amazing episode, there is absolutely room for a part 2 ! It was so good, I wanted this podcast to last another 2 hour.
Wow! Dr.Mike and Dr.K together 😍😍👌🏾 this is amazing
Dr. K (his full name is Alok Kanojia, MD MPH) is a gem. We had a fantastic conversation. What I learned from this discussion was that it reminded me of a quote: "When you treat a disease, you win/or lose, but when you treat a person, I guarantee you win, no matter what the outcome" ( Patch Adams).