Dangerous Disconnect: Tesla Home Charging Problem Analyzed And Corrected
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- I travel to San Antonio, Texas, to check out and fix the home charging equipment at the home of a Tesla Model Y owner. With the help of Charge Pro, a local Qmerit electrical contractor, we found multiple issues caused by the previous contractor.
So we ripped out the problems, rewired the system, and had the owner charging up the car before the end of the day.
This video is powered by Qmerit, North America’s leading provider of installation services for EV charging, home energy storage, and other electrification technologies. See how Qmerit is making the energy transition easy for home and business owners: qmerit.com/ev/charge
Chapters
00:00 Intro
01:01 How I found out about this problem
04:23 I talk to Dylan at his house in San Antonio
08:07 Matt Trout from Qmerit and I talk about the problems we found
21:03 Summary of what we did to fix the problems
23:54 Only hire electricians with EV charging equipment experience
26:29 Outro
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Honestly this is part of the reason that I selected a 32 amp charger for my EV. All of the hardware is spec’d for 50 amps but I don’t need to charge my vehicle that fast. So I bought a slower charger and I even software de-rated the charger down to 30 amps. Even at that speed my car is typically charged back to 80% in about two hours.
For most people a really high powered charger is just not necessary.
Agree. Using a Tesla mobile charger and an industrial NEAM 14-50 outlet is all you need. You don’t need to charge over 32 amps. There is no real benefit.
I set mine up to be 48A ready (60A breaker, 6gauge THHN) but set the charger to limit to 40A. Every once in a while I have wanted that 20% additional charging speed, but it's never impacted my plans.
@@GregMcNamer I too installed the same setup and don't plan on running anywhere near the full 48A (I have 8-10h charging overnight anyway and slower is likely better) but wanted the max in case I add additional chargers in the future and power share with tesla wall charger.
Also hard wire 2+1 6 awg was actually cheaper than running 3+1 8AWG and spending 100+ on a good NEAM plug. and now futur proof so I never had to crawl under the house again...
I had a new garage built and specified a 50 amp circuit, Hubbell NEMA 1450 outlet and appropriate copper wire be used. I am using a Clipper Creek EVSE designed for portable charging which draws 12 amps at 240 volts. I am fine with that for now because I always have enough charge for the amount I drive. If my situation changes and I drive more, I will remove the outlet and get a hard wired 32 amp charger. Charging the battery slowly at 12 amps probably helps the battery last longer because it doesn’t get as hot while it charges.
@@wtmayhewLow amperage charging is less efficient. Wastes electricity.
Definitely need a repair series. STATE OF DISREPAIR.
Daang, what a great video. When I had my chargers installed I did my research for installers in the area. I figured, if I’m gonna pull 12,000 watts, the people who put this in better know what they’re doing. My house is 30 years old, so it was expensive, but my system is now completely bomb proof and we charge three EVs nightly.
4000 watts per carr?
No, I have two Tesla walk chargers that are connected. So they know which car needs how much and deliver it according to a schedule I set up. All in, my EVSEs run about 3.5 hours a night and deliver around 16kW.
@@rrkumar78 Excellent!
Please do a series on this. I work for a utility in the Caribbean where I see the slow but inevitable acceptance of home charging, and a lot of home owners are not aware of these simple but saline points that they and their electricians need to know.
A video series like this will give me ammunition to share with colleagues , local influences and policy makers.
The aluminum wire as a feeder is not a problem . Most homes and even commercial buildings are fed with aluminum feeders from the electrical utility . The pull out disconnect is used for AC high draw condensing units and with acs running all day in hot climates I don't see any more demand with an EV but I tend to agree even for a ac condenser they are not the best option . What we see here is improper connection on the terminals . Probably to loose . Same in the other panels . Unusual to see from multiple contact points .
I think they should develope a combination arc and ground fault dual function breaker for EV charging at the source in the electrical panel . Normal breakers do not trip on arc . I believe the largest arc fault breaker is a 2 pole 20 . This maybe the only solution to protect your home from burning down while asleep from faulty installs as EVs ramp up and charging becomes more common
My thoughts exactly. As they kept talking about the problem with AL wire, I’m thinking “What about the service feed?” If AL wire is a problem, then nearly every house has that problem. Properly sized and terminated, aluminum feeders are perfectly acceptable.
@@sigcrazy7 The funny thing most times the service wire from the electrical utility is undersized and quite substantial . They don't need to follow the code and self inspect their installations
Completely agree. Modern aluminum wiring is fine provided that they are terminated properly. The pull out disconnect is not the issue. It’s the excess heat caused by the improper termination and resulting arcing that caused the issue.
@@stevencole7331 The utility company does follow code, but the code they follow is usually the NESC (National Electric Service Code). The NEC has nothing to do with the POCO. See article 90.2(A)&(B). Service drops can seem very undersized to us NEC folks, but the service drop is exposed in the air, so can be much smaller per their code. Rule of thumb is their side of the meter, their problem.
I learned early in my career from two electrical engineers, to torque the terminals and then at the end of the job, check the torque again. They said because the ductile aluminum keeps compressing. I usually found a loss of torque. So the The torque back-check has prevented problems.
Also, the nature of the "scissors" type disconnect , {it is called a blade by the way} is the same as the stab type that failed. Square inches of contact and retention force is the same. Amp rating is amp rating regardless of duration of load.
I installed my son's EV charger myself because I know that the average licensed electrician is not as skilled as most people think. I'm lucky to have a lifetime of experience and despite not being "licensed" I did the installation exactly as shown in this video. Thanks, I enjoyed your video.
This. I've had a few people ask why I didn't hire a "professional." Answer is that they will do the bare code minimum right up until they don't have the right thing in the truck. The dollars I save by doing it myself can go right back into better copper.
Stay safe with your install... And add a chargehanger...
did it myself as well. Its not that complicated, just make sure you get quality components and torqe all connections nice and tight.
@@wileecoyoti 100% this. You had a good comment as well and that's exactly why I did it myself. I too know my way around residential electrical work and have referenced the code myself because at the end of the day, this is my home and I want it done correctly with quality components. My concern was definitely on the sustained heavy draw of charging a car.
Probably non union rat contractor who is licensed but he sends out his "helpers" to do these jobs unsupervised.
EXCELLENT VIDEO!!! When I got my Tesla, I talked to several long-time Tesla owner friends about installation, they all used the same company, so I went with them too. And so did my neighbor and a guy down the street. EV charging isn't something to cheap out on, experienced EV electricians may cost more, but it's worth it. And IF the person hasn't installed many others, I'd find another.
Qmerit does this, which is why I'm happy they partnered with Tom, who I trust. Thanks guys for the great work!
Geez, just do it yourself. google it. Hi quality robust components are the way to go. Not cheap junk with a 30% duty cycle. And not aluminum wire.
This is amazingly scary and amazingly cool that you did this!
Ily daddy
Love this series idea. When I put in my wiring for a 14-50 outlet years ago I got help from a retired electrician friend. Based on State of Charge's continued insistence on safety, when I replaced my Volt with a Tesla that pulls 32A instead of just 16A, I hired a licensed electrician I found through Tesla's website that had experience with EV charging. He verified everything was done safely which helps me sleep easier. Thanks Tom
Absolutely have someone double check everything, you don't know what you don't know.
Tom and Qmerit, well done to both of you! You went above and beyond.
Nice of your sponsor to pick up the bill for this . Its easily in excess of $3000.00 for that scope of work.
Fantastic. I would love to see you fix people's problems. This is a new arena for electrical instalation.
Yes, please start a series on this, this is VERY needed! No one else is doing anything like this or shining a light on these issues. So important for all of us to know. It really is life or death and nothing like anything else in the residential setting. Definitely worth the attention. Thank you for taking this on and helping educate us!
It is similar to installing a hi power welder but with 100% duty cycle.
Excellent work Tom! I have been telling people this for years. This is not an area where you want to try to save a few dollars. Spend a few extra dollars and do it right. I am glad to see folks like you covering this and bring attention to the issue.
Heck. Your call name suits you perfectly on these subjects.
Adding an EV to your house, you may want to talk to your electricity distribution provider. Out in our rural area, where our electric cooperative often has a separate transformer for each house, the transformer may not be sized to handle the EV. Transformers are sized based on average expected loads, and are able to handle higher than rating, provided the loads aren’t continuous.
When we got our first EV, I was on the board of our electric coop. The engineering folks at the coop initially thought the 10KVA transformer for our house was sufficient. I did the math and emailed the VP of that part of the coop with the numbers. My calculations pointed toward a transformer fire given the 4 or 5 hours of charging. The coop replaced the 10KVA transformer with a 25KVA at their expense.
Please continue this series Tom. This is part of the education of EV charging.
You nailed it, Tom! Great and highly informative video. I'm not an electrician but I don't think normal residential electrical designs have ever seen 4-8 hours of continuous 40+ amp 220v current demand. I applaud your efforts to get electrical codes modernized. Keep making more "fix it" videos that shine a light on this issue.
I have 2 50A NEMA 14-50 outlets charging our Model Y and R1S. I charge the Y at 25A and R1S at 40A which is more than enough instead of higher amperage. Most of us don’t need to charge at 48A or even higher. Glad Tom went to the rescue and hope a lot of people will watch this video and learn from him.
I feel ya on that. We charge our model 3 at 25 amps. More than enough for us and its fully charged in the morning to 75%.
I lowered my amperage to 60% from 80% after seeing this video. I can charge all night!
Did you mean to say from 80 amps to 60 amps? If percent, 80 & 60% of what? If the breaker rating, then drawing up to 36 A from a 60 A breaker circuit?
@@johnpoldo8817 I have a 50amp breaker and was charging at 40amps and lowered to 30 amps. It charged just fine overnight and added 199 miles to my charging limit.
Not mentioned is the electrical definition of “continuous “; any electrical unit in use for more than “3 hours” is then considered continuous use. An air conditioner usually turns on/ off for 10-15 minute cycles, so the AC breaker box never heats up enough to melt the insulated connections.
Always use copper wire and copper-rated connectors ( electrical panels at big box stores usually sell ALUMIMUN BUSS BAR PANELS; get a COPPER BUSS BAR PANEL, about 25% more). In my area, the parts brand would be HUBBLE; it isn't cheap, usually 2-3 times more, rated at 100% continuous duty. An INDUSTRIAL electrician would understand this as they perform this type of application every day.
I set my charger up to 32amp Max output until I get the funds together to have a Pro run a dedicated line from my Main panel on the other side of the house. I also just set my car to charge at 20amp overnight which is usually more than enough current for my 70% battery level. It is videos like this and Sandy Munro’s that make me cautious about my charging level.
Honestly you don't need more than 32A anyway, and it will reduce the stress on the vehicle's built-in AC charger to run lower currents.
Thanks to guys like you on TH-cam I realized these problems before we connected our level 2 charger for our beautiful Tesla! Thanks for the great video!!
Awesome video Tom!
Please continue the good job, we'd love to see more videos like this
Yes, would love to see a series on this. Thank you for the knowledge
I never do anything to minimum code. I always go above code in everything I do because minimum code usually leads to headaches. I don't get call backs but I do check in with my customers down the road to make sure no problems have cropped up from the work I performed. Word of mouth is the best advertising.
Man... I was going to do this all myself with maybe a little help from an electrician, but thanks to this video I ended up going with Qmerit to have them do it for me. I'm still absolutely shocked how many people/places will use aluminum wiring. So stupid. Thanks for a great video!
Love your talks. I had exactly the same trouble with my installation. Two quick disconnects have burned out and the local electrician suggested I use the knife type disconnect instead. I did the installation myself and had it inspected by the local electrical safety board. They thoroughly checked everything and passed it. In my case it was definitely a case of undertorquing the connections in the pull-out disconnect box.
I had a brand new Siemens panel installed in Feb 2022. When we had our Grizzl-E Duo installed in 2023 we had a world of issues. It turned out bus bar B had not been properly torqued at the factory. Fried the main breaker and charred the back of the panel box. Scary stuff.
We had been having mystery flickering for ages and had replaced the panel to address it originally. Irony that we got a faulty panel. Got no satisfaction from Siemens on warranty either. Very disappointing.
Proper torque matters!
Siemens along with Krupp were leading European industrial companies in the 1940s.... I would not expect warm and fuzzy from either.
This is disappointing to hear, if it is true. When I started my electrical career 30 years ago, Siemens was a benchmark of quality.
Great one Tom! Thank you for doing this!
Best advice -- set the charging power limit to optimum power for whole night charge, not maximum -- especially when you're not sure of in quality of the installation and the house system itself.
slower charging can also be more efficient. check out the charging voltage - could easily drop 3-5% (240V vs 230v) at 48A vs 24A.
You are absolutely correct. I am very knowledgeable about that area, and I had it done in my home new home in California and then when I moved here, I had a gun again and the electrician put the cheap quality, Chinese plug and I had it removed and put the best American brand Hubbard. I believe it was. It was like 10 times more instead of $10. It was a $100 and we removed it. We put that thing the electrician came back. He removed it and put the Hubbell brand and he ended up paying for that. Thank you for this video. You're awesome.
Hubbell, not Hubbard.
So happy to see attention brought to this problem. I recently purchased a Chevy Bolt and had my charger installed through Qmerit for free. They contracted a local company that specializes in EV charging but installed a breaker that was not rated for my panel because they could not source a GFCI in the correct brand. I questioned the installer about it but they insisted that it was safe. Seeing all these charging malfunction videos made me uneasy about it so I contacted Qmerit who confirmed my fears of the incorrect breaker and they sent the installer back out to correct the problem. They ended up putting a standard breaker in my panel that met the certifications and moved the GFCI out to a sub panel they installed next to my charger so I guess in this case the installer tried to save a penny but probably lost money on my install with the additional equipment and labor.
Interesting, most EVSE install instructions say not to use a GFCI breaker. It's in bold text in the Tesla HPWC instructions. All ground fault protection is built into the unit.
@@tazeat it was a 14-50 outlet installation
I love this video, tom! I would really like to see more of these types of videos. I know it is a cost to you not only monetarily, but also your time. But I feel these are very valuable.
Great job !! Thanks for your coverage.
Excellent content. Thank you for saving people's house and possibly their lives!
Great video. Please do more of these videos. Best way to educate home owners.
YES PLEASE DO A SERIES ON THIS!!! I will be purchasing a Tesla Model Y this summer and will be building a new home next year. This type of series will DEFINITELY help me ensure that my new electrical system will be installed correctly from the start!! This is EXCELLENT!!!
Thanks for sharing this information. Wonderful video.
Thank you. This was very helpful to see the problems. I would appreciate more videos like this. As long as it's profitable to you.
Great job on the diagnosis and repair, the owner had a dangerous situation going on there through no fault of his own. Personally I would have had a scissor type disconnect installed near the charger to kill power in case of an emergency. Great job Tom!
This is a really good video. This should be required watching for any electrician who is going to install EVSE's.
As a Licensed electrician who does primarily service, I recommend to all my customers to direct wire their Level 2 chargers. I have replaced numerous receptacles ( both Leviton and Hubbell ) that were burned up. I have found several times the plug has not been pushed in all the way. This is also the issue with pull out disconnects both EV charger and HVAC.
I know someone who uses a plug for his EV charger. But it is a twist lock style so you know it is properly plugged in. He and I are both from the IT world have a lot of data center exp with these. If someone wants a plug in for their charger it's best to use a twist lock not a dryer plug. For precisely the reasons you mentioned. The problem is they cost real money and a dryer plug is basically just another outlet.
So much very useful information, thanks for posting this video!
Great explanation, of course. One contribution to margin that I find useful is to set my Tesla charger well below capacity. On my 50 amp circuit, I set the charger to 30 amps and don't worry about needing a bit more time to "fill up" the MYP battery. The cable from the Tesla unit to the car runs sensibly cooler, always a good sign.
Please do many more of these. Good engineering practice will go much farther than talk.
I've just experienced this last weekend with my JuiceBox EnelX Level 2 charger 240v plug in. Now I need to get this resolved. I just thank God my house didn't catch fire or burn down.
Wait, since when does Tom do house calls? Lol😂
🤔 LOL😂😂
He needed a break from his old lady😂 That’s always my excuse
When I remodeled my house I changed to 200 amp service and pre wired for a car charger. I hired the electrician who does all the work at a wood shop where I work. Well experienced crew that is very experienced with heavy duty, constant draw equipment.
Great video Tom. Very helpful.
What a great video. I've been trying to spread the word about EV chargers and their continuous load on the electrical system. I don't think people understand and this video drives the message home.
I've seen several AC disconnects installed, and melted from using them with a wall charger. The places that require a disconect for EV chargers need to specify a knife switch or something with similar metal construction.
I'm an electrician and an engineer working for a switchgear manufacturer. Even though I prefer copper there's nothing wrong with aluminum as long as it's wired correctly. Most industrial applications like data centers with large current requirements will use aluminum 9 out of 10 times.
One of the reasons I appreciated Chevy paying for my home charger install with their promotion last year was that they worked through Qmerit, and Qmerit themselves picked the installer who would have EV charging experience - made the experience smoother than if I went out to try and find a local electrician myself.
Great series idea. Make more please.
Tom---the CA electrician gave me a chuckle with his inside joke----the disconnect next to the TESLA EVSE is rated to work 100% of the time. It simply is an inexpensive pullout disconnecting means. Also, remember the NFPA 70 E ---National Electrical Code comes out every 3 years---then it's up to the local jurisdictions to adopt. They have to change their paperwork etc so it's not cheap. When I lived in NJ and worked in NYC it seems every dept worked off a different year of code. You design the system code is a minimum requirement!
NFPA 70E relates to safety of workers around electrical hazards. NFPA 70 (no E) is the building code.
Thanks, Tom. Good summary starting @time 23:54, And yes, if possible, it'd be good to do more videos of real world "inadequate" installs.
All I see starting at 23:54 is more preaching and virtue signaling.
Am trying to find anything other than "aluminum wire!", "continuous draw", torque torque torque, and, "It broke."
Excellent Video! Should be required watching for every State Regulatory Department in charge of Code for electrical installations/upgrades.
Great story! I would assume any electrician will do, but it makes sense that electric cars are a whole different animal. I hope you do more of these stories.
Yes, but it helps if the electrician is familiar with EVSE loads. Most electricians think of these circuits as dryer or oven circuits, not continuous-duty circuits. You have to make sure they realize the EVSE might be pulling 40A+ for 12 hours straight.
EV charging loads are nothing special.
The problem is that they are a sustained heavy load for a long period of time.
This causes shoddy work and components to show up, unlike with short duration loads that can cool off after a short time.
***This is the real problem***
Shoddy work that is much more common than many would like to admit:
- undersized wire for the load
- improper termination of wire
(Loose wires, screws not torqued (BIG ONE), no anti-oxidants used on aluminum (NUAL) wire, terminals used with NUAL that are NOT rated fir aluminum...)
- cheap, knockoff, poor quality components
(Disconnects, high power receptacles, etc)
This is an important video. Thank you!!
Wow! Great video! Super informative
Great Video Tom. I just installed my Tesla Wall Connector. Always use the top of the line products. That are properly rated for EV’s.
Great video and tips Tom.
Impressive video. Very good learning! Very interesting even for me in a 50Hz land
My electrician (who was on the Tesla list of electricians), put my TWC on a GFCI breaker which caused it to occasionally trip. The TWC manual says it has built in GFCI and not to put on GFCI breaker so the electrician came out, swapped it and been fine. Also, unless you are an Uber driver and charge multiple times a day, 60 amp (48 amp continuous to car) is overkill really. On my 50A breaker, I could run 40amp but I set mine to 30A as it gives me about 10% per hour for my Tesla MYLR. I usually have it start at 1am and usually done by 4am which is still well before I leave and is off peak for the grid.
Similar thoughts on our charger installation, but in my case, I also have solar on the roof, so I adjust my charger's output to use up the solar production for the entire house plus the charger. At the peak solar production, usually 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., my 48 amp charger is lowered to 20 amps, and I'm charging my car plus providing solar energy to the house with a little overflow to the grid. Now I need some AI in the system to keep an eye on what the solar is producing and dynamically adjust the charger's output.
Also consider that a larger current is useful for certain cars such as the CT, lightening, rivian or hummer that have much larger batteries and/or range.
I ended up buying a second Tesla so now we have power sharing going on one 60 amp breaker at the main that goes to a sub panel in the garage. Now I'm glad I have 60 amps available, so 24 amps to both cars when we're charging both at the same time. That can take a long time. It's nice to plan for the future. Having some extra power available gives you options.
I agree with others that 40 or 48 amps is overkill. I am home for 10-12 hours at night. Is it essential that the charger be finished by midnight? What is the rush?
Lower amperage is plenty, and puts less stress on all the components.
This eagerness for "maximal possible amps" may be counterproductive.
@@ralstm1 1) Future proof, you might buy a second EV. 2) In an emergency you might wish you could charge faster.
Tom - had this same exact failure last year. I was lucky enough to be walking by and smelled the plastic melting.
It appeared to me that it was torqued OK but the blades on the pullout disconnect module were spread out slightly and caused a serious heat buildup.
I gutted the enclosure, replaced the damaged wiring and used some Polaris blocks to splice inside the enclosure.
Thankfully the main panel was OK. But was scary - another hour or two and it would’ve been a busy day for Parsippany PD.
Super interesting and useful video!
Thanks Tom this will be a good series I definitely use this info before installing I found on Tesla website of there recommended installing companies
Yes!! Series starter!! Keep them coming. Im in SA too.
One thing, our electrician in MA says you can't do bolt on here in residential. Also said not to fill holes on the boxes as need them for other reasons. But this did help us do it more safely thank you!
A series on this would be great.
Yep. I AGREE 1,000 %. And to Educate the new and current Electricians and Electrical Building Inspectors too. But Who should be 1st? The STANDARDS and Building/Electrical Inspectors? Then the Electricians?
Also what's going to push these standards to be instituted? The EV Auto manufacturers, charging infrastructure, The Standards institutes?
The EV Technologies will improve and demand higher amps/voltages/speed of charging at higher rates. So should we wait till its all settled on the Accepted Norm or Expect these chargers will need higher charging speeds and flow of ELECTRICITY?
@@robertlee8805 I believe individual states will have to mandate new codes for EV installation that local / municipal building codes will have to follow . It will be customers driving change by complaints against bad installations.
Great video. Please do more.
Great video, the points raised are critical for a good install of the wall connector (charger)..
Hey Tom - thanks for the video. I've been driving electric since 2014 (BMW I-3) so interacted with you back then. I originally installed a cripple creek charger connected to a Nema 14-50 connector back then. When I bought a Model 3, I replaced it with the original tesla wall charger. When I bought a Model Y for my wife, I added an outdoor Tesla Wall Charger and shared the circuit with the other wall charger with the signal wire between the units. I added a slider cutoff box for the new unit since it was outside the garage. I found a chemical smell and found the wires melting in the cutoff box. I bypassed the cutoff box and found that the connections in the outdoor wall charger weren't torqued/connected properly thus causing some of the heat problem. I added a copper ferrule on the power lines to ensure a good connection in the outdoor wall charger and haven't had a problem since. In my second home in Michigan built in 2021, the whole house electrician wired up a Nema 14-50 outlet in the garage and I found that the tesla mobile chargers were cutting back the charging rate to 16 watts due to overheating. I bought a Bryant Nema 14-50 and replaced the Nema 14-50 outlet originally installed by the new house electrician and haven't had any problems since. So I agree that the products haven't caught up with the heavy usage for EV charging and everyone needs to be careful with the products they choose!
I’m convinced. I will definitely call QMerrit when I purchase my first EV.
Qmerit is a marketing middle-man. Local electricians sign up to be 'Qmerit installers,' hoping for more work. These local electricians vary in quality, just like the local electricians who are not part of Qmerit marketing.
I honestly do not know a fool-proof way to hire a competent electrician but I do know that Qmerit is no panacea and they are expensive. Someone has to pay for the marketing costs and extra layer of profit.
---
As an aside, I wish the Qmerit show had told us more wire details about the run from the sub-panel (turned into J-box) to the disconnect.
Was the EVSE the only load on that feeder turned BC circuit ?
Was the wire run to the disconnect in conduit ?
What AWG Alu wire was used ?
If the run to the disconnect was Alu not in conduit, #3 AWG was required to prevent overload. Moreover, an EVSE requires a dedicated circuit. Any additional loads that were wire-spliced in the demo-d subpanel are a violation of an important safety code and added to the overload. The same considerations apply for the run from the main panel to sub-panel cum J-box. So even before invoking poor workmanship (an easy target to be sure), the wire choice is highly suspect.
For those casually following along, the electrician who installed the EVSE may have been able to save a lot of grief by simply setting the Tesla EVSE for a 50A circuit. But it seems like s/he did not know how to look up wire ampacity, a very core competency for anyone doing wiring.
Nice video. All true. As a sparky I’d like to say you’re right about the 60 amp pullout disconnects as not being up to continuous duty as RV chargers must be rated for I had one with properly torqued connections at my house fail just like the one in the video. Guage was proper and wire was fine. Disconnect pullout was loose. Don’t use them for EV chargers. Nice job on fixing the route problems. Great advice, bang on. It might cost you a little more but how much is a fire? Do it right the first time and you won’t have that problem.
Hi Jonathan. How do you know that the wire and AWG were fine ? I didn't hear the details needed to make that determination.
Once again Tom - great video! I got as much information as I could over the year + I waited for my lightning to arrive. Also made sure to use the highest grade materials, such as copper wiring and commercial grade 1450 connector as appropriate. Haven't had any problems in the year that I've been connecting my vehicle at night. Your video this is great information, especially for folks who are new to this technology. One thing I would add though is I would probably vet any vendor that is going to do the work. I have experienced several electric vendors (including Qmerit partner electricians) out there that are taking advantage of customers "lack of knowledge" and fear by jacking up the price of the quote! It's really important for folks to read their quotes very carefully... Cheick it line by line item and do your research to determine if what's being quoted is actually required. Also get at 3 three quotes from various electricians to use for comparison.
Thank you for the video! I've been searching for something like this since I bought my used Tesla almost a month ago! I wish you had mentioned what gauge copper wire the guys ran for that distance but hey can't have everything. This gives me much more confidence to know I'm hiring the right guy to do the work and asking the right questions to get the right guy. Very helpful.
Thanks for this videos, I have learned a lot, I'm here in San Antonio Texas as well, I'm a handy man that do all kind of work in homes, I also own a tesla model 3, and know electrical because of taking some clases in high school but here local aluminum wire is very common and use now mains and most 220v loads in homes, copper is use only in 110v wall outlets and switches, obviously copper is used in 220s but been more expensive is not the the first choice, I had this melting issue in a ac disconnect in my parents house like 5 years ago, they have a 15kw heating system in the central system and one did I notice a melting insulation in the main wire coming from the overhead city pole and called the CPS out local electric provider and the techs will fixing or actually replacing the main wires coming in from the city the guy asked me if I had any knowledge of electricity and asked my to check all the 220v connections in the house while there was no power for any lose connections and found a melted disconnect on the inside unit and realized that it is not rated for that much power and I installed a small sub panel rated for 100amps with 4 spaces 2 breakers 220v and feeded with aluminum wire, and seperad the load into 2 separate loads one for a 5kw and the second four the 10kw elements and have not good any issues after, and I did a ev nema 50 installed for a ev few years ago and had a melted outlet after about a year and learned from your videos to only use the industrial one from Bryan and hubbell and will not use any thing other than dose one bought a torque screw driver to make sure every connection is properly torqued not only in the charger but also in the breaker and learned also that thhn wire had a higher amp than Rome wire even been the same gauge
Tom you totally hooked this dude up
Tom - Please do more of these videos! I bought a home level 2 charger (in anticipation of buying an EV) and I want it installed right! I live on Long Island and will use QMerit when I'm ready for an install!!
The aluminum wire issues are interesting. The conventional wisdom is that it's fine for large wire, let's say #4 or bigger, connected to terminals that are rated for it. In addition, it is required to be torqued to spec and I would advise anti oxide goop even when it's not required by code, after cleaning the surface of the wire. For ev charging, I would also want the ampacity to be a little more than 125% of the charging load, maybe 140 or 150%. I doubt the problems with aluminum are in cases where all that was done right. You might say it's safer to just avoid aluminum, but your service conductors are almost surely Al. Fortunately, it can be safe for big stuff when done right.
Yeah, the aluminum phobia seemed a bit exaggerated. I wonder if the original guys undersized the aluminum wire between the main panel and subpanel. I can definitely understand the rest of the thinner wiring being copper that went from the subpanel to the EVSE.
Not an electrician but spent many years in construction. Installed my own charger the same way this video described.
Indeed, handling high amperage electrical systems, such as a 50 Amp single-phase system, requires some careful considerations, high-quality equipment, and adherence to a couple of safety standards. The duty cycle indeed adds a factor of complexity in designing and operating such systems.
In contrast, the European approach to managing high power demands, especially for applications like electric vehicle (EV) charging, home appliances, and industrial equipment, often involves using a three-phase power supply. The standard three-phase voltage in many European countries is 400V (often referred to as 380V or 400V, depending on the country), with a common configuration providing 230V between any one phase and neutral. This setup allows for more efficient power distribution and reduced current per phase, leading to several benefits:
Efficiency, reduced load per phase, safety and infrastructure including the use of 16A circuits for up to 11kW of power. This setup is quite common for residential and commercial applications, including EV charging stations, which can safely and efficiently provide a high level of power without overloading the system. And the overall practicality for EV charging... For electric vehicle charging in a residential setting, an 11kW three-phase charger is a popular choice in Europe. It strikes a balance between charging speed and the capacity of most residential electrical systems.
Three-phase is common in the US, just not in residential homes. One isn't better than the other; they both have advantages and disadvantages.
good to know. I grew up with 220v (france) and always sought odd to only have 120 x 2 in the US. Higher V makes a lot more sense...
@@alaind831 A lower voltage should in theory reduce the number/percent of fatal shocks. Death is primarily caused by exceeding the current threshold in the heart. Everything being the same, increased voltage leads to higher current so at 240V more fatal shocks occur. So, in the US we run most things at 120V and have the option of split phase at 240 for appliances that need it, such as a dryer, stove, air conditioning or EV. Having 120V for most things (think of a child putting a paperclip into an outlet) and 240V when needed is safer.
@@TrendyStone ironically I got zapped many times as a kid in France while tickering with electronic circuits (before I became an Electrical Engineer in the US). Granted I wasn't standing in water and stickign my tongue into a plug :)
110V is not safer then 220V if you have 50or 60Hz AC.
But the current is doubled at 110 V
for the same electrical power.
So there you have higher current and resolving heat in wiring ( and additional higher percentage of voltage loss in wire resistant.
So 3 phase 230V = 400V system with copper cable specified to DIN
results to a saver feeling.
What a Great video. Please do more of these problem installations as this will need to be addressed as more people install charging infrastructure in their homes. If not made clearer, it will be just a matter of time to when substandard installations costs someone their house or even worse.
Very interesting video, I'd like to see more.
Yes we have make sure all states new to up grade the thinking of that very point you made!
From what I gather here in the UK we stopped using aluminum wiring in the 70s due to increased fire risk. I had not realized aluminum was a thing. I know that in the UK we use 240 volts against the US 110 volts. but I also have seen you can have 220 volts. Apparently, we do use aluminum for transmission lines. A very interesting video thankyou.
For residential structures in the US, we typically use copper up to 10 or 8 gauge, but anything larger is usually aluminum.
Also, our 240V power comes as two opposing phases with the neutral in the middle, so still 120v to ground.
Typical US residential voltage delivery is 120/240V ac single phase. Aluminum is perfectly okay to use (I have used it for service panels supplies as long as it is sized and terminated properly and the terminated equipment is rated for AL.
20:27 this video is great! I used Qmerit for my installation. The electrician that did the work was very good. I found Qmerits free estimate was very low compared to my actual cost, not sure why. Another thing Qmerit did was make me aware of the IRS $1000 tax credit available, I got mine.
After watching this, I confident that my install is safe. Make more of these so people get it right.
I’m glad you and the Qmerit expert talked about over torquing. I watched my Qmerit installer tighten the wires at both the charger and at breaker lugs with a regular screwdriver as tight as he could. He did NOT use a torque wrench.
The system will be inspected on Tuesday and I will be contacting the contractor and Qmerit the same day.
The moral is that using a Qmerit installer is not a guarantee the installation was done correctly. Know how it should be done and watch the installation yourself!
UPDATE: Spoke with the field supervisor of the contractor today. He said that there are no questions on ‘the test’ (I’m assuming that he means the Qmerit qualification test) so he does not deal with that in training his techs🙀.
He volunteered to come out to redo the connections and invited me to watch him retorque them. I did and he found two connections were over-torqued and two that were loose. All four connections were not to spec and obviously Qmerit’s standards.
I called Qmerit and asked to speak with a tech or supervisor. There was no one available, but said they would have someone call. That was at 09:00 and it is now 16:15 and no call. I’ll try again tomorrow.
I’m pleased with the great customer service of the contractor, but very concerned regarding the mismatch between what Qmerit says their contractors will do and their certification & training requirements.
UPDATE #2
The Qmerit EV Concierge contacted me my email and I explained my issues and that the Field Supervisor had already completed the job to QMerit standards. Today he both contacted me by email and by telephone to assure I was ultimately satisfied. He also said that they would be examining their training materials and oversight of their contractors based on my feedback.
I am fully satisfied that my system is as safe as possible and that Qmerit is willing to listen to concerns and make their referral service worth their premium price.
Still, you never know the quality of the work unless you know how it should be done and watch the installation to assure that it was performed correctly.
Qmerit has hundreds of local contractors in its network. Some are better than others, it's that simple. But Qmerit does tell them they must use torque drivers/wrenches. They do want to hear feedback from customers so I would advise you to let Qmerit know the contractor didn't do it properly. If they get enough complaints about any one contractor, they will remove them from the network.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I understand what you are saying, Tom. I will work with the contractor to get another installer out to correct the work and let Qmerit know what occurred.
My point in posting was to let your viewers know that even highly rated companies can do sloppy work and so that you can emphasize to your viewers that they should know how the installation is supposed to be done AND watch it being done so they know it was done correctly.
As you often say, this is your life that is potentially at risk so you need to know the work was done to the highest possible standard.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney "But Qmerit does tell them they must use torque drivers/wrenches." That's nice.
The NEC says the same
You know the saying, there’s always a bad apple in every bunch, your installer could have been a bad apple.
@@fdeguilla I would not say he was “bad” or lazy. It was he was not properly trained because of some omissions in Qmerit’s training materials, testing and contractor auditing. Qmerit thanked me for the feedback and said it would be addressing the shortcomings. Still, my original point is still important and true - know how the installation should be done and watch the installer do the work. Your life and those of your family may depend upon it.
As an electrician in the past and my dad now a retired electrician and then became an electrical engineer - I am sitting here with my head in my hands looking at this.
This could have easily led to the house burning down and the insurance would not pay out blaming whoever installed the charger
If it was a permitted install (as this seems to have been) the insurance would almost certainly pay out in such a case.
@@raitchisonYes correct. Insurance would have to pay then sue the contractor to recover.
Judging by what I have seen, these cheap Chinese parts are not made to code, they just say they are. Buy american made parts, or know what looks right. The plastic is not made to withstand the heat generated by the weak connections, so you have two problems. If it is fused properly, it is not likely to set the house on fire, that would be an extreme case. I used equipment that can take the proper amount of strain and used a infrared camera to check under load. No heat, no problem. Same with A/C disconnects, but the duty cycle is much smaller.
Total FUD response! The Insurer may subrogate against the professional electrician to obtain reimbursement to the insurance company, but the HO Insurance policy will absolutely respond to the claim and will pay whatever the policy requires (Actual Cash Value, Replacement Cost or Enhanced Replacement Cost).
Tom, you are doing God's work here! LOL. Hopping on planes and fixing problems!
Thanks!
Hey Tom ! Totally agree! We need a series on State of Disrepair !! When would you'all want to "Connect" NEC + HYDRO-1 And the PEO on do iť right 👉 the first-time.😊 Your northern family & neighbour's also use. TESLA.. Fire 🔥 Depts should not be needed '! 😅 For Gods sakes SCRAP THESE aluminum and crappy junction blocks. The NEC CODES MUST GET UPDATED NOW ! I will ask JB Straubel to assist ! 😊
60 years old house, 100amp service, we use 32amp mobile charger overnight, 240V, it charges about 50kms per hour, connected to a 40amp breaker. No issues, all runs cool.
Great video! This is why I do all of my own electrical work. I wired my own garage and ended up teaching the inspector somethings. He had to look up something in the code book and he found out that I was right. My feeder is 6 gauge thhn rated at 75 amps but I don't use that much so my main breaker is 50 amp. If I ever need more amps I will pull new 4 gauge thhn wire. My feeder line from Xcel is only 4 gauge aluminum. 😮
Great topic Tom! I would also be concerned with galvanic compatibility, going with all copper from start to end with increasing payloads generated by EVs , as a future proofing solution. High cost today, but out of mind for tomorrow w/AWG4 or bigger.
Glad I did it myself more then ever. I hardwired right to the breaker box, torqued the screws in my tesla charger as well as on the breaker. After a year of service I checked the torque again. No issue ever.
Exactly! The guide specifically says direct wire; no plugs, no disconnects, no GFCI. Half these so called electricians are jokes. I have a EVSE I installed myself 12 years ago. Not a single problem.
On the Tesla installation manual said very clear "Cooper wire only and no disconnect or GFCI Breaker need.
Penetrox is a Pro/Commercial use product that prevents oxidation between Copper & Aluminum but also enhances conductivity. I didn't expect these guys to know about it, but I've installed 10 charging outlets in 3 homes, including 2 that are outdoors. Zero issues, and I've shared this product with F&F! Of course, properly torqued connectors are absolutely required, but Penetrox should also be required. All brand-new electrical panel breaker lugs have what appears to be a similar product applied at the factory.
Tom, this is an important series and I hope you will do more. Another area you might want to cover is long term inspection / maintenance of these installations. I have a 40 AMP dedicated EV circuit with a NEMA 6-50 outlet that was put in in 2013. Your video makes me wonder if it should be checked / retorqued, even though 11 years later it still looks brand new. It was installed under the Department of Energy EV evaluation program so seems like they did a good job.
🔌🔌As a recently retired electric engineer who worked for AEP, Cummins Power Generation, Square D, Thomas & Betts, and Leviton the issue is inverter cyclic loading along with the duty cycle. AL wire works fine when installed properly. An Air Conditioner (AC)disconnect has a high-duty cycle but the blades will overheat due to cyclic load chatter. That is why plug-on or bolt-on (when torqued down properly) breakers work better on cyclic load than plug-in style. Also, load center breakers touch each other versus industrial panelboard which has spacing between the breakers to cool. An example of a company that is addressing the EV charging issue is Leviton which just launched its catalog # 140R receptacle. This new receptacle like the Hubbell and Bryant has a stronger blade camber to handle cyclic load chatter. Blades on all mfgs HD safety switches also are made to handle cyclic loads. Some GD safety switches like AC disconnects do not handle cyclic loads very well but can handle high-duty cycles. Some Western state AHJs that are on the NEC code committees plan to introduce changes to the NEC code for EV charger installation. I would not be surprised to see an extended bus bar to handle dedicated EV charger loads in a residential load center.🔌🔌
I had initially used Leviton R14-50 outlets (Home Depot) with half-height lugs. These overheated. I replaced those with Eaton/Cooper outlets that cost 50% more, but have not overheated since, for a year+.
Eaton / Cutler Hammer is one of my go to's! You get what you pay for...