4 things in MEDIEVAL GAMING that DON'T WORK
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2024
- Install Raid for Free ✅ IOS/ANDROID/PC: clcr.me/BHdnG6 and get a special starter pack 💥 Available only for the next 30 days
4 things which are common in medieval video games, and even roleplaying games, which just don't work in reality.
Patreon & Extra Videos: / scholagladiatoria
Support & extra content on Subscribestar: www.subscribestar.com/matt-ea...
Facebook & Twitter updates, info and fun:
/ historicalfencing
/ scholagladiato1
Schola Gladiatoria HEMA - sword fighting classes in the UK:
www.swordfightinglondon.com
Matt Easton's website and services:
www.matt-easton.co.uk/
Easton Antique Arms:
www.antique-swords.co.uk/ - บันเทิง
Install Raid for Free ✅ IOS/ANDROID/PC: clcr.me/BHdnG6 and get a special starter pack 💥 Available only for the next 30 days
Please answer my question. I wrote my question in comments box
You REALLY need to stop sponsoring RAID: Shady Ledgers Matt; as good as your content is, your sponsoring a "game" that's essentially daylight robbery REALLY DAMAGES your reputation with a lot of people, myself included.
I want to add something. I am sure that certain individuals developed tricks to carry various items on themself. Historically we see stuff that were statistically most common and widespread. But if I was adventurer in those times I am sure I would use my brain just as we do today. As a kid I used to put my bow in a way that wooden part was on my backs and rope on my chest. It is not great solution but it worked. People innovate and one thing is big army which knows when to prepare for battle and other thing is lone adventurer who needs to be ready at every moment. History does not mention such insignificant individuals and their ways are lost to time.
I am trying to leave with me that understatement for person who love historical accuracy.
@@ezrafaulk1799 By now everyone knows about Raid: Garbage Legends. Let Matt and other creators have their $10,000. If mentally deficient individuals still spend money on RGL, let them help fund the preservation of history.
20:45
"If you don't wear your armor on, where is it?"
Exactly where my 20 cheese wheels are.
and my 300,000 gold pieces.
All video game characters carry around a bag of holding
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
Okay
Same place prison inmates hide drugs and other goodies they might want to sneak in. It's nature's pocket!
The silent bow kill really gets me. You're sneaking, shoot a minion in the foot with a bow, and he dies instantly and silently, and the guard next to him doesn't even notice. Most places you would hit someone with an arrow - even incapacitating and eventually lethal hits - would not be quiet. Drowning to death because your lungs are filling up with your own blood isn't a quiet way to go.
Biggest for me is every gut slash instantly taking out a guy in chainmail
One of my problems with video games is, that bows are usually used with dexterity or agility instead of strength. I just cannot see, how a nimble person is able to perform better with a bow than a strong one.
Generally speaking, gear should have a strength requirement to use, dexterity to aim. If you don't have 16 str, you can't use this bow. Have 6 strength, here's your string ukulele it's going to be heavy and tough to pluck.
The real oddity is aiming with strength on melee weapons.
I'm a strongman contestant, so I'm as likely to hit with this sledgehammer like an Olympic fencer with their foil?
I mean, you need both, but modern recurve bows that most people would be experienced with tend to have a really light draw that the average person can handle without much of a problem compared to medieval bows, so that influences it too.
@@Zraknul That probably came from D&D where armour class is all or nothing. So a strong powerful blow has a better chance of penetrating armour to do damage.
But armour should be more like a damage reduction. So you can hit for basically zero damage if the power behind the blow is insufficient. And then you can add a penetration factor to weapons that counter armour's damage reduction. But things from a mechanics point of view the game become very slow and clunky.
Because Legolas is very nimble and uses a bow. Hence all elves have high dexterity and are good archers. And that's the entire reasoning for high Dex = good archery skills. Quite a lame rationale.
@@dimman77 GURPS does that and it's not clunky. And yes, you can get armour-piercing arrowheads and they distinguish between fabric/leather, chain, and hard armour heads.
A wild guess, painted/personalized shields helped to find your own discarded equipment after a battle.
@@cal2127 Obviously. But I believe shields weren't always uniform. Often they had individual colors. So finding your own equipment could be one of the benefits.
Identification while wearing a helmet, for most. Romans had unit designs, the painted shields have been found
Great video Matt. Most medieval knights would have had a team of staff so one of my thoughts is that you hand your lance to staff or get them to give you a new one. The Battle of San Romano painting shows more lightly armed cavalry behind the heavier front line. I wonder if they were there to get the heavies out of trouble, reassemble and rearm?
I recall reading an account from some of the crusades that directly mentioned knight's squires being so heavily loaded by spare equipment (several spare shields being mentioned directly) they couldn't fight themselves as light or medium cavalry. I don't think they would necessarily get the heavies out of trouble, but they would be serving as mobile re-arm station and potentially chasing down fleeing troops.
Possibly true, but I think using heavy cavalry to disrupt or break enemy formation and lighter cav following to take advantage of it might be useful in itself.
It would be nice if the game had the servants. that had your five polearms, two plate armor and metric ton of loot.
The knightly lance fournie or squadron was often in later times a squad of up to a dozen men, the knight, a man at arms, multiple mounted archers and foot soldiers.
In art is common to put emphasis on the main characters, i wonder if what you were looking at was a representation of maybe the lords followed by their bodyguards or squiers? i guess they had the weapons of their lords as well, just in case. a spare lance, a spare shield? and of course they would make sure that the lord was not killed. not every lord was very good in battle, we should keep that in mind lol
caesar octavian himself was a very poor general, amazing politician tho!
i bet he was a total prick in person haha
All the problems are basically "Where do you put it?"
However, in most video games players are a one-man army. In reality, knights had squires and servants with them, who could hand over whatever weapon the knight requested. They also brought spare horses with them.
Therefore the solution to all of this is to give your character non-combatant followers. If you want the player to be able to bring a wide selection of weapons, give them people to carry those weapons for them. D&D has a character background that does exactly this for you, the Knight background gives you three servants/squires/etc. that can carry and maintain your equipment for you.
KC:D was really realistic about the polearm.
You couldn't stow it, you couldn't even sheathe it. If you put it down, it was DOWN. But you could pick it back up, it didn't disappear.
Also if you went into a town you'd be considered armed and the guards would chase you.
My favourite moment was when I wanted to enter a cave but my polearm got stuck at the low cave entrance.
You can get polearms? I always just used a two handed sword myself or occasionally shield and axe/mace
@@GhostEye31 you can get them, but you have to basically get them in the action. You can't get them in your inventory like most other weapons. They're kind of like "special bonus weapons", since they never appear in your inventory
Regarding the bow, various short bows can be placed on your back and you still have a decent amount of room to swing your sword. You run the risk of damaging your bow when doing this but we also have evidence of foot archers using bow holsters, but not for longbows, I agree they are likely dropped with no intention of skirmishing. Many cultures had skirmisher-role archers specifically designed to harrass the enemy on foot, similar to slingers and javelinmen in antiquity.
@@cal2127 plenty of cultures carried bows in these sheaths on the side, qing army even had regulations regarding their placement, usage and mounting the sabre together with it. It's obviously not the most comfortable thing to have around when fighting in a melee, especially in the context HEMA people are most familiar with.
Yeah, largely Matt has replaced some "myths" with laughably bad ones. That you can't wear a bow or shield on your back, and that it's impossible to use a spear and bow... despite the fact the Byzantines did just that.
"You can't stow a spear while riding a horse," it's called a spear-sling, they were in use up the freaking GREAT WAR.
The only popularised title I can think of, that really meant to be "historically accurate", is "kingdom come:deliverance".
Wasn't the most welcoming game, only about 30% of players actually made it through the intro.. but it had a lot of interesting mechanics that tried to be as close to real, as possible.
From archery to zweihanders, it did some interesting stuff!
Including not being able to store Polearms. You had to just drop them.
@@gaiusterminus truth, I think they meant to add the option, to add them to horses inventory, but never happened.
Rumours of a second game are rife!
I loved this game until I played it.
Then back then it crashed, I had only limited possibilities for saving the game (this effin' flask) and those two combined made me quit the game.
@ yeah i remember it being extremely demanding.
I play on xbox and the crashing was some what minimal, but there was a major issue with lockpicking, so much so that they had to create an entirely new feature, purely for controllers. Madness.
Once i got past the jank KCD became one of most fun games i played in a long time.
As part of my mercenary kit at faire I had a set of arm armor I wore over my mail hauberk that I could put on myself.
the arms were attached to the pauldrons which were attached to the gorget.
I could more or less shrug into like a coat, then secure the straps on the gorget, upper arms and vambraces. Took me around... 30 seconds to a minute.
As we did Gallowglas, we did a lot with short polearms, mostly poleaxes, bardiches, and greatswords. We found easy ways to sling all of the above across the back, but it's not a combat position, its a travelling long distances position. They're not hard to get to hand, but fighting while they're slung is... not optimal
In video games, searching for your polearm, shield or bow after the battle might be a novelty for a couple of times but it'll become annoying rather quickly. Just like "survival modes" where it bottles down to "click button to drink water/eat food".
Number 1: Skyrim
Ironically there are no spears in Skyrim
@@NMahon ironically, the modded spear in skyrim is categorized as an *axe*
Hi Matt! I'm an antiquity nerd and I just want to tell you, guiges or straps for at least some of the most popular shields in the Greco-Roman period / Antiquity do exist. At least in some sense.
The Greek aspis had, almost universally, an inner cording going around the entire interior perimeter that was specifically separated from either the arm cuff (porpax) or the handle (antilabe). There are actually several (I believe) depictions showing this shield worn around a warrior's back.
The smaller pelta shield used by phalangites in the Hellenistic period was wielded in the same way as the aspis, and also used a strap, called a telamon, to hang over the shoulder so that you didn't need to use it hands-on whilst wielding the sarissa pike, but if your pike broke or the enemy closed to melee range, you'd swap to your sword and hold the shield more actively and fight.
I'm not *quite* as familiar with Roman stuff, but, I have seen in the relevant historical forums, both mention and recreation of a strap system that was found or otherwise attributed to be a shield strap along the inside that was used when traveling or used to hang onto baggage train.
You'd think the shield would get in the way, was there a special way of hanging it while using the pike?
@@druthvlodovic I wanted to post a link with a possible solution but of course Google doesn't let me. An important feature of Philip's reforms was scaling down the shields for pikemen so they wouldn't be as huge as traditional aspis. Based on experiments I actually believe it's entirely possible that at least some of the men in formation would hold them while using the pike since it's not a weapon you have to be really mobile with. No pictures of that unfortunately
I would guess that a lot of equipment was worn on the soldiers back, between battles. While they might not switch between it during battle, it's easy to carry both armor and shield on your back between battles.
Good post. The great thing about this video is it attracts people who know what they're talking about, and actual historical examples. instead of assuming, "it's impossible to wear a shield on your back."
How does one even come to that conclusion, unsupported by history, physics, nor logic?
Matt would have loved cRPG mod for Warband. Archers dumping their stuff and running was common place, most polearms were unsheathable, kicks had counters, you could roll if you were knocked down, to avoid the follow-up blows. Large 2 handed weapons were unsheathable also.
why did the scarecrow get an award?
he was outstanding in his field
Groan
Why does the Norwegian navy paint barcodes on all their ships?
So they can Scandanavian.
What was Rudolf told to do when he tried to move an ordinary sledge?
Pull the other one its got bells on.
@@darthkek1953 I don't get it.
What about the fact that in games you are basically awake 24/7 and operating at full alertness and physical ability all the time?
Not in AD&D.
@@darthkek1953 Cool. What's the game mechanism for that?
@@kwanarchive short and long term fatigue tables
@@darthkek1953 Interesting. How short is short term? You can get puffed out pretty quickly fighting at full power in three minutes.
@@kwanarchive different systems different rules, but typically a stamina-based amount of combat rounds before getting fatigue penalties, a requirement for daily rest else penalties, and a maximum daily terrain-&race based movement rate which can be exceeded with penalties, and encumbrance limits which if exceeded give penalties.
So if you load yourself up with more gold than you can carry, don't sleep, run everywhere and fight hard all the time... you'll struggle.
Video games can have a "stamina" bar that depletes.
I know it's common as hell, but for some reason weapons sticking to the back bothers me the most in the original Dragon Age. Especially for dual wielding, both weapons just attach back there, no scabbards, not even the vaguest handwave. For such an grimly realistic (relatively) and serious game otherwise, it's just jarring.
Hey Matt, can you please cover combat with animals some time? Not just with horses, but also camels and elephants while you’re at it. Maybe include war chariots too, if you like.
At a deeper level, video games make the player a one man army. That is why you are carrying a bow, a shield, and a spear at the same time. Perhaps you have a crossbow and a longbow, a two handed sword, a large kite shield and a 10 ft. halberd. Maybe you even have a trebuchet in your pocket. Modern warfare games are the same way. In reality, a military force would train you in one role and you would only function in that role and only carry the weapons needed for the role. An archer would carry a sword, but if he is using it, he is not doing his job. He may use it for personal defense, but he wouldn't be storming the keep or anything. He is an archer, his job is to shoot arrows.
Also, more elite troops who specialized in many weapons, would have servants or other subordinates riding with them, handing them the equipment they needed. Especially mounted nobles kept spare horses close to them.
In Quake you would have 10 weapons on you at all times, switchable at will. The same engine was used to make Call of Duty where you had one primary firearm (e.g. assault rifle) and a side arm (usually a pistol). Both games were fun but for different reasons.
Is that a trebuchet in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?
I would love to see a more realistic representation of polearms and ranged weapons in video games: Forcing the player(s) to drop weapons that can't be easily stowed on your person would be a great balancing factor for these, and thus allowing them to be "more powerful" than smaller weaponry.
You should try playing Kingdom Come Deliverance. You can pick up polearms but you cant store them and they force you to fight on foot if you want to keep it.
I've played enough AD&D back in the day to know that bugbears can ruin your outing pretty quick. ;)
But seriously, folks ~ great video. I remember being perplexed even as a young kid as I tried to imagine myself actually doing the things my RPG characters seemed to be able to do with ease, lol.
I'm torn when DMing my own games how much realism I want to impose on the players. Especially because it tends to hurt martial characters like fighters and rogues more than spellcasters, and martial characters already feel like they're at a disadvantage because of how much they rely on their gear compared to magic-users. It feels a bit unfair to penalize the martials just because we know how armour and weapons work(ed) in real life while magic is made-up bullshit with fewer restrictions. Sometimes I'll just handwave it for the sake of fun and drama (kind of like how fictional characters almost never have to worry about going to the bathroom unless it's played for comedy).
In Dungeons and Dragons 5e, if you want to change weapon in the space of one combat turn, you have to drop the weapon you're holding to pull out what you want.
DD is still one of the most ridiculous systems out there tho X)
Have been waiting for your full plate harness video.
Fun fact: in D&D 3.5, it takes a minute (10 rounds of combat) to put on light armour such as an arming doublet, boiled leather, or a chain shirt, or half that to do so hastily in a way that makes it a little more cumbersome and less protective). It takes 4 minutes for medium armour such as a full sized hauberk or some forms of heavy armour (such as a suit of lamellar armour); half that with help, or a minute to do so hastily. Full plate can only be put on properly with help, which takes 4 minutes; without help, it can only be done hastily, which also takes 4 minutes and has the same penalties both to protection and to how cumbersome they are. Also, most people could only get a good night's sleep in light armour at most. So, night attack happens? The fighter probably isn't wearing their armour.
Full plate in four minutes? It took Ian LaSpina 9.5 minutes, with one assistant, to put on his late-14th-century set. th-cam.com/video/k24y_ZmxRHg/w-d-xo.html
Slightly disappointed you didn't put everything on just to drive the point home
it's fine, the spear was in the background the whole time, as you can see, the point was always there.
If he did, it'd become obvious you can fight fairly well that way. Didn't Shad make a video doing that, and showing you can fight reasonably well doing it? Another youtubers did, which was the inspiration for Shad's video, IIRC.
One point on having "strange messages to the horse" I think some Ottoman Turkish sources and most Mamluk sources mention teaching the horses almost types of relevant warfare tacticts.
Taybogha's book has drawings of tens of "meydans" (fields) to train horses for different circumstances. A Turkish source "silahşorname" repeats them with some differencse. it contains drawings of the training fields, galloping courses and what are to be done.
to sum up, if you are on a horse on battlefield, your horse would surely be familiar with those "mixed messages" and would not react mistakenly.
Lindybeige did a video on how quickly he could put on his hoplite armor. I would like to see videos on how quickly other armor types can be put on.
Have you seen Shad's video on using a nail loop to carry a spear or bow on the back?
Or Raphaelo's video about putting on plate armor without assistance?
No one did that with spears, and it would still be in the way. Also, I would like to see someone tie pauldrons to chain mail without assistance.
@@sethdusith6093 That first part is irrelevant to my comment, and for the second part, go watch the aforementioned video.
@@khodexus4963 and your comment is about as relivant to this video. Shad doing something doesn't mean anything.
Also I've seen it. His period armour is possible to put on alone, but other periods would be much more difficult
@@sethdusith6093 Apparently, you weren't paying very much attention, or just don't understand Matt Easton's content very well. Or, didn't read my comment very comprehensively for that matter.
Hey look guys, in shads new video, he hits his sword. Weird eh, who would have thought, not khodexus
I've been watching a lot of these videos prior to playing my next Warhammer Fantasy roleplay character. Had to hire minions and pay for transport for all the gear and to assist in arming up. There goes a big chunk of all the loot paying for that...
That sounds pretty cool. Sadly, it also sounds like it'd be clunky and time-consuming.
Awesome video!
Good stuff!
Found images and art of mounted archers holing a lance or spear on a sling of some sort over the arm.
Sources?
Yes, quite a few cavalry soldiers did this, as Matt does acknowledge. Some cavalry had pouches or loops by the stirrup to put the lance in as well. I wish Matt would do a video about lances of the late 19th century & early 20th century, especially the tubular steel lances.
@@F1ghteR41 Yeah, tons of higher-status cavalry across history fielded with a lance or other staff weapon as well as bow or two. & we have manuals & artwork showing how to shoot while retaining the lance/polearm. There were various methods.
@@willek1335 A Byzantine cavalryman carried his lance on his back, and after using the bow he must be able to put it back in its case and access the spear, and then switch back again, while riding.
books.google.com/books/about/Maurice_s_Strategikon.html?id=ihDmbG-BhXsC
Page 11
There is also an illustration of how its done by the Mongols here
warfare.6te.net/Persia/14/Jami_al-Tawarikh-Abu_Ali_ibn_Simjuri-rebel-Mahmud_ibn_Sebuktegin-MsOr20-f114v.htm
@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 Matt Easton acknowledged this? As far as I saw, he just stated you can't stow a spear, and said games were unrealistic for having a sort of spear-sling, without any room for the realities you mention. He also indicated shields cannot be worn on the back.
One of the things I like about Kingdom Come: Deliverance. You can't stow a polearm. You just drop it if you try to put it away.
So interesting, I Hope you'll do More
"Imagine running around with a stick on your back" and this is why the expression "having a stick up your arse" was born :) As for role-playing games: May I interest master Easton in a Bag of Holding? :D
I did play testing for dungeons & dragons 5th edition and timed myself putting on different types of armor. They adjusted the rules to match my times and included my note about plate mail requiring two people.
Before I watch... let's see...
Torches indoors and... never pooping.
playing kcd, and getting anxiety anytime henry carries a lit torch into a confined space for very long >_>;;
You could concievably use some sort of hook to hang a boss gripped shield from say, your belt; if you need the use of both your hands.
I suppose it would get in the way to much though.
I think I've heard about at least small metal bucklers being used like that. Sometimes, as much as a fashion accessory as for use in fighting.
There is a mod in Skyrim that can make you drop your equipped weapon when you switch them if you so choose.
Also, interesting enough, a TTRPG like D&D (not famous for its realism) doesn't let you put away your weapon easily.
Having played all 5 editions, it's interesting to see how the game took some steps to change with new historical information. There's still legacy crap in there like armours that probably didn't exist (e.g. studded leather, ring mail) but at least they're not claiming longswords weigh 10 lbs anymore!
Where did you get the quiver in the video? I've been looking for one just like it.
Additionally, I find the damage assigned to these weapons is at best arbitrary and at worst, the damage doesn’t reflect physical trauma of the arrow/spear/mace. They completely ignore trauma to the organs or physical shock to the body.
Damage models in games tend to be laughably silly, where characters are such bullet-sponges you get bored before you can finish the first boss. Armour is made of paper, and the character with the highest level wins... even Assassin's Creed decided to go that route.
Interestingly, having talked to some developed... many of them wet themselves at the word, "realism," deciding that they want to simulate foam weapons wielded by LARPERs rather than an actual sword or axe.
There are mechanics in videogames to reflect the factor of switching armor (or weapon) during battle though, in some games you have to open infantry menu to switch gears, but the in game time won't pause for you, so if you're under attack but not have your equipments ready, you're deadmeat.
In fact I do believe that behind the ear was the preferred storage place for "Monkeys" Moon staff
I think at one point they should add Matt in Raid Shadow Legends, such loyalty for a sponsor it's impressive
Not hard to be loyal when you are getting paid to shill for some scammers.
@@demomanchaos I mean true, but not everyone shilling for Raid does it so consistently
@@MandalorSkyrd Maybe he is getting phat paid (as the kids say, or at least used to back in my day) and no one else is throwing as much his way. Considering how large that scam program is I doubt anyone could buy as many shills as they.
@@demomanchaos that's indeed a possibility
Well, the debate in pen&paper RPG has been going on for decades now. Some people love e.g. introducing an agility penality when you have a shield slung on your back, other people want to have rules that are as lean as possible.
Essentially, the issue is the mechanic isn't worth the time. Players and GM forget about it, and the penalty is likely so small it wouldn't make a difference anyway--and if it did it would be seriously annoying. Worse, it's a problem that is easily solved.
With the right computer simulation, and a game with good stealth mechanics and such, you could make it interesting. But partially computers can make it worse since it can take several button presses to do what could be arranged in a single line in a pen and paper game.
The ground seems to have been the most common place to store your equipment.
For a well equipped adventurer the full chainmail suit, as worn by early Crusade era knights, seems to be the most effective armour. It rolls up fairly small (though heavy at 45-55 pounds) so you can load it into a bag and carry it on your back. Plate armour is not easy to roll up. The suit covers your entire body and makes you pretty much immune to slashes, and somewhat resistant to stabs. You do take full damage from blunt force damage though.
A helmet with a visor is a good choice, as is a shield. A polearm OR a bow, but don't try to carry both at the same time. A one handed sword to pair with your shield as a sidearm, and of course a dagger.
In regards to your first point, I also get bothered when games allow you to wear a two-handed sword on your back, but there’s something I’ve seen in some games I’d be curious about your opinions on, where the scabbard has a sling attached like a rifle, and you swing it over your shoulder, unsheathe it in front of you, and then toss the scabbard back.
I can’t recall if it’s ever been done historically, but that aside, do you (or anyone in the comments) know if that’s something that could feasibly be done, even if it’s clunkier or more time consuming that drawing a longsword from the hip
It's actually possible to sheath a 2 hander or sling polearms and bows. TH-camr Shadiversity invented contraptions to do that. However, there seems to be no evidence of things like that invented in history.
I actually made a design for something like this, where the scabbard is in a frame that tips forward over your shoulder; I haven’t built it yet, but I do think it would work
@@eazy8579 Shad's backscabbard is slotted, a pretty interesting design, I recommend looking at his video, might give you more ideas.
@@jean-sebastienmatte2358 There is some art of large swords worn on the back. You can't exactly perform iaido with them like in fiction, but given a a few seconds you can adjust the belt scabbard and get it out, if a little clumsily. Or just unsling it before drawing.
How do I join Matt's clan? Haven't figured out how to find him
Is there any chance you could post a link to where you got that sweet spear head?
The long blade with wings/lugs is exactly what I want, but I'm having trouble finding one.
I think Winlass Steelcrafts/Museum Replicas makes one.
Edit: Seems they discontinued it... does a boar spear suffice?
www.museumreplicas.com/european-boar-spear-head
my biggest pet peeve in skyrim is that the noble footlocker was the only container
in the entire game that could hold a old nord greatsword, yet you could find them in chests
Some other things about bows in games are that they are always permanently strung, the strings aren't affected by moisture and they never break.
Kingdom Come shows us why you have to carry a polearm in unrealisicly. In this game you can't put a polearm away and if you want one you have to hold it all the time. That's such an obstacle, that you simply don't use polearms any more, even though they are really OP.
I agree with you but I think that's also just because polearms in KCD were a bit of an afterthought and they were probably implemented last minute or were given relatively little time in their development.
You can obviously observe this when using the polearms because they lack polish. There aren't too many attacks or animations designed for them and they're also very much OP and poorly balanced in some ways. I have a video on my channel that showcases just how OP the Lucerne Hammer is (it's the bandits in skalitz one).
You'll also notice that they can't be bought or sold even though they have a price associated with them. They can't e stored either. This all suggests that warhorse didn't spend much time developing them.
It would have been amazing if we could store polearms on our horses or at least in our chests. I, for one, was super bummed out at the lack of opportunities to use polearms in KCD, given the potential there. I remember trying to bring one into battle on several occasions and it always despawned once the battle started :(
Fantasy RPGs based on Dungeons & Dragons have rules to account for how long it takes to put on and remove armor. There are pretty significant penalties for putting on full-plate armor without assistance and/or trying to put it on faster than the armor allows. These penalties usually involve the armor being less protective than it should be and increasing the penalties armor applies to a multitude of tasks. There are also significant penalties for trying to swim or sleep in armor. Of course, since D&D and related RPGs involve quite a bit of magic, there are all manner of enchantments you can add to magical armor that make it possible to swim or sleep in that armor. And, since adventurers are superior to "normal" humans in virtually every way, they can take feats / learn skills to offset the penalties armor applies to all manner of situations. Of course, there are plenty of GMs and groups who ignore those things because it can bog down the game. Just as many groups ignore carrying weight limits and encumbrance. Most of us don't play video games or table-top RPGs because we want a middle-ages simulator. When we want a simulator, we go find a game that will fill that role.
How about things common in fantasy that are way newer than than the general tech level? I can think of two off the top of my head. 1: 1800s style Kerosene Lanterns which show up rather prominently in D&D, newer Zelda games, and Dragon’s Dogma off the top of my head. My guess is that people hear “oil lamp” mentioned in history and don’t realize it’s referring to is an essentially just a bowl with a wick in it instead of the things that can still be bought today (nevermind they’re complex metal things dependent upon detailed knowledge of combustion to design and refined petroleum to run), likely aided by confusing candle enclosures for something more complex. 2: Backpacks, which show up just about everywhere. Aside from speculation of Otzi’s stuff, I don’t see any suggestion proper backpacks (not just baskets with backstraps or bags slung over the back) appeared before the 18th century. This is more understandable since it’s genuinely strange nobody seemed to have made them
I could see someone possibly putting a ring and a cup thing on a scabbard to hold it on your saddle, but definitely not on your person during a battle
I think there could be some interesting game play dynamics if games would let you command a squad of retainers, specifically in the early fire arms period. Why would a mounted pistoliere reload on a cantering horse when he could drop his expended pistols off with some retainers near the baggage train and get some fresh ones? Determining where to place your reload team could increase your rate of fire but also could expose them to danger thus risking a valuable asset.
Bow and arrow on close range (effective as a modern firearm)is the first thing that got on my mind when I saw a title of the video
Matt makes many good points, especially for role-playing. In video games, we usually have "bags" that magically hold everything, including treasure, crafting supplies, rewards, magical objects, and yes, weapons and shields. We even have creatures that drop rewards like weapons when you defeat them. I'm not sure where creatures like wolves store their weapons LOL. So we pretty much are used to these bottomless bags for gaming convenience, and understand that they are far from realistic.
And by the way, Metatron has tested wearing armour all day for a couple of weeks to see how hard it is, and also has tested putting on plate armour by himself without help. Check it out.
Matt, for soldiers and knights who didn't have squires, or perhaps their squires died in battle, is their historical evidence that they may have helped eachother don and adjust eachother's armour? I was thinking about modern scuba divers or skydivers, who, before each dive, help eachother and check eachother's gear for safety.
I do mounted archery and the holsters for the bow, even a small horse bow, are pretty inconvenient if you're loping around in the woods. Honestly I find it easier to ride in a western saddle and just hook the bow on the saddle horn. Not very secure, but neither is the bow holster. I also do cowboy action shooting with revolvers and rifles. Anything bigger than about a 30" long starts getting in the way of either your riding (if it's vertical) or the horse bending when he turns (if it's horizontal)
Also - about putting on a mail shirt - yes, you can do it in seconds, or the rings can become stuck to one another, and practically immobilise you, forcing you to either ask for help getting them unstuck, or take it off, fix the problem, and try again.
Hi Matt, this is a little off topic from the video but I'd like to learn proper single-hand medieval arming sword fighting and cutting techniques. Unfortunately, there isn't a HEMA club in my area. Do you know of any sources I could use for learning this on my own? Thank you for all your fantastic videos and the work you put into this channel.
th-cam.com/video/-o8jxX7vkOs/w-d-xo.html
Didn't Knight Errant make a video long long ago in which he put his entire plate harness all on his own?
Also, have you seen the video Shad made about wearable spears? It's much simpler than his back scabbard for swords, and could conceivably be used in a practical scenario.
I know Metatron did.
We have various 16th/17th descriptions of people wearing staff weapons on the back or belt, so we know it was done historically. Something like Shad's method might have been how.
Great video, Matt. I prefer details like encumbrance, but the rest of my party doesn't like to deal with details and costs.
Military engagements were usually arranged with the camps and gear out of the way of the battlefield, but what would you do in an RPG type of setting? Fight with your gear on, or drop as much as you can and try not to trip on it/hope it doesn't get damaged or stolen?
In a bunch of games I have specifically avoided using things like full plate harnesses or polearms specifically because of these issues.
Matt, where did you get that sallet?
In Warband, most polearms are on the back. Lances just disappear if you aren't wielding them.
In the Deluge mod (17th century east Europe) whenever you de-equip your pike/lance it drops to the ground. Does indeed often mean losing track of it.
Lol. Warband (if you are talking about Mount&Blade) is a really nice game, which is a lot of fun. But it should be pretty clear, that Mount&Blade is very fantasy-like and not very historical accurate. Take for example it's different cultures, which are settled in completely different time eras..., e.g.: There are romans ("the Empire") fighting vikings ("Sturgians").
Just for clarification.
@@elduderino1635 that is bannerlord, not warband
@@elduderino1635 The Sturgians are Rus-Vikings and the Empire has a 10-11th century Byzantine aesthetic. Not bad if you ask me.
Kingdom Come Deliverance didn't let you store polearms and there's nonstop whining from people that this is unfair.
"BuT jUsT pUt It On YoUr HoRsE tHoUgH!11!" comes up a lot too even though none of the horse tack in-game looks suitable for that.
I need to show this to my DND group. They always argue that you can put a long bow on their back, shields too. It's annoying as a DM who likes things a bit gritty and grounded.
I have the opposite problem: as a player, I'm always looked like I'm out of my mind by the DM and the other players when I put down my polearm to do stuff, dismount to use it or refuse to climb a rock wall because it's a magical ancestral polearm that my character really can't leave behind.
For your players, I would go for the "Sure you can... oh, the longbow is ruined* / the great axe just toppled a brazier while you are sneaking in the King's room / by the time you'll retrieve the shield from your back the Black Knight would have cut you in very small pieces" route.
Don't limit your player's -bad- innovative ideas: just show them why absolutely nobody else do it.
* if they want to carry it by putting an arm under the string like sometimes you see in movies/series. But I could allow them to spend some coins and time and have an expert craftsman to make some sort of tailored bow-holster/harness to be carried on the back or a bow-sling like this modern one:
bowtote.com/index.php/carrying-positions/
The bow would still have an annoying tendency to getting stuck at every moment (but particularly at the _most_ inappropriate ones) and putting it away and take it out would not be very fast.
@scholagladiatoria Matt, what finish has been given to your sallet - it is clearly not just plain, polished steel?
Where is that arming doublet from???
In SCA and role playing I would carry a sling mainly for hunting small game but also for the rare occasion when my spear or pole ax couldn’t reach someone
You should do a video with your full set of plate harness sometime soon
Interesting to note that the Renaissance romances also ignore the ability of the knight errant to arm himself and his carrying capacity. you read "The Fairrie Queen," for example, the Red Cross knight spends the first part going off on his own, sleeping and Jousting as he likes with no mention of how he does so logistically.
With the bow that's actually a really good solution to the problem of Bows in games like Mordhua and now Chivalry II.
You could force archers to drop a bow and abandon their "main" weapon in numbers but Archers could still be able to utilize the full strength of their bows. They'd be able to puncture armor and at the very least down opponents with one shot which would be arguable more accurate then what we have now but without the main player base still playing as footmen and knights they'd easily be rushed and cut down. It would essentially force a balance where if one side didn't have archers they'd lose due to casualties from opposing archers but if they had too many they'd be cut to ribbons. Since an typically an archer class is wearing lighter armor and can't take as many hits.
As for pole arms I loved/hated this problem in Kingdom Come Delieverence because a pole weapon was so good against armor and multiple but you had to leave it behind if you ever needed to use a sword or in my case mace.
Interesting point on the mounted Lance-and-Bow! Books on ERE/Byzantine strategy and history emphasize the comparative power and mobility of Avar and Byzantine heavy Lancer/Bow cav, but I can't recall a segment mentioning what they did with their lances or how they transitioned between uses.
One 12th-century source says put the lance under the thigh when shooting the bow.
on horseback you can quickly place the lance between your low leg and the saddle with point up. there was also horse gears for that purpose.
Love the blued sallet! It’s such a good look
Bit of a bummer there for the Sun Dome Templars, the Sky/Fire Rune Cult weapons of Bow and Spear even a child had me thinking
“ what do they do with the Spear when using their bow”....
I sorted it out by logic though back then...bit of a pain if your Geas is “use no non Cult Weapons” though
Here's another thought: putting a dirty sword in a clean scabbard. Scabbards are difficult to clean internally, so you can imagine how gross they would get on a long campaign. Sometimes you're just too rushed and you just put your bloodied sword away.
Ah man, I was hoping to see some demonstration of horse archery. I love shooting my enemies, who are trailing me, from horse back, in Mount & Blade, like any great horse archer should.
On the armor point, I think Metatron did prove just a few days/weeks ago that you can do that alone, though it does require some tradeoffs.
Documentation in modern warfare is quite telling about armor vis a vis Kevlar vs rifle plates. Often in a walking about scenario, most soldiers don't have the rifle plates in their kit; because it's heavy and hot. But, when engagement is imminent, they will go to the Hummvee and slide the plates in place.
On the topic of spears and horses, i read mentions of spanish cavalry on the XVIth century holding a short spear on their lap, for using when their lance broke.
Re: where do you stash the pole-arm?
I hire a genie to carry it for me. Actually, the extradimensional bags could be handy; so long as the pointy bit doesn't ruin them, I suppose!
As regards to armour, i liked the penalties Rolemaster gave to swimming.
I have no idea if any armour existed in the past that you could swim in, but i expect the answer is none, or at least that it wouldn't be effective. I suppose a bladder of air could be used with a large wooden shield, maybe? So at least you have that shield?
One practical question for gaming is "how long does it take to get the armour off in an emergency?"
Example: Fully armoured knight falls into a river. Do they have any chance? Is there an armour type that means they will have a reasonable chance of getting it off and getting to air if they can keep their cool?
Considering pirates don't usually wear armour, i would say no, but most rpgs are more generous than that.
The first Christian king of Norway lost a battle at sea and swam away while wearing a chain hauberk.
@@adambielen8996
Looks like chain is possible for short periods.
th-cam.com/video/bwd2ZEav2vE/w-d-xo.html
Other types are less clear. Obviously it is dangerous to test it out. Japanese armour is supposed to be doable, if difficult. th-cam.com/video/TLcT5J7yg9k/w-d-xo.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plate_armour#Swim.3F
One thing we learned in US Marine swim qualification, is that your backpack can often act as a floatation device. As long as the majority of the items in your pack are less dense than water, or trap air, a typical ALICE pack will float until it becomes waterlogged. One section of swim qual is jumping into a pool in boots, rifle (dummy), helmet and backpack, and swimming around it.
Of course, the more ammunition you carry, the less buoyant you will be…
Have you seen Metatron's video recently where he put his own arm harness on himself. He did say that he basically had to decide if he wanted pauldrons or arms, he couldn't do both together by himself. He might have been able to get one on, can't remember.
Also, you COULD put a strap on the viking shield thru the handle. Even if they didn't do it, not that big of a stretch for you to do it, if your character knows about people doing that with other shields. It would hang down low if you used it like the strap on the norman shield, so you'd want some kind of buckle where you could loosen or tighten the strap easily for when you're traveling.
Love the Sallet, rest of video is great as well, but I was distracted by looking at that gorgeous thing
I think either Capwell, or Loades did a test of how quickly you can put armour on (though they had assistance).
Interestingly - at Stamford Bridge, many skeletons had evidence of leg wounds.
manchu bows are one of the biggest ones from Asia, and they certainly go in quivers (plenty of period art shows this)
The donning of a full set of armor would be an interesting video!!!
I do know that Byzantine cavalry were equipped with a bow, lance, sword and shield and were apparently expected to carry the lance on their back. And I've found a video of a reenactor who seems to be handling it (minus the shield) without too much difficulty. th-cam.com/video/hNNYHkQvkYw/w-d-xo.html
I mention this specifically because the way he's stowing it is extremely simple and something almost anyone could do. Besides tucking it through his belt there's just a simple strap added to his back to help hold it securely.
D&D 3ed had this actually quite nicely represented. Putting on full plate took four minutes (40 turns), and required help.
I know in dungeons & dragons I haven't played much since 3rd or 3.5 edition there is provisions in the player's handbook relating to armor for how long it takes to put each type of armor on how long it takes to put each type of armor on unassisted how much fatigue your body will suffer if you try to sleep instead armor and of course the weight of the armor itself is listed so that you can know how much your pack weighs if you have to take it off and carry it.
In Baldurs Gate (AD&D 2e rules computer RPG) you can change armour all you want, unless you are in combat. If you are "in combat", you simply aren't allowed. You can access any item, diva through the backpack, and then the potion rack inside instantly (don't pause if you don't like these rules).
BG might be ancient, but it works well with modern tablets, giving a chance to those who missed it (note BG2 is by far the better game, arguably one of the best ever).
What I really dislike about video game bow holstering is the erroneous belief that you can loop the bow around your torso and keep it pinched against your body just like that. Connor from AssCreed is guilty of this.
Except you can. Not quite as convenient as in video games, but you can wear a bow. Try it sometime.
@@vanivanov9571 It’s doable physically but horrible for the life of the bow & bowstring. It would also hurt if you didn’t wear a padded coat or armor or something on your chest.
@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight Horrible for it? Not really. Maybe if youdrew on the bow significantly by wearing it or did some specific acrobatics.
Not sure what kind of bow requires you to wear a padded coat or armour, but warm clothes is usually enough.
@@vanivanov9571 You want to store a bow without putting any unnecessary tension on it. By having it stretched out to be put over your torso, it weakens and wears out faster.
As for the pain part, I was thinking along the lines of a war bow, like around 100 lb draw weight. Something with a lot of tension force to propel an arrow very far and with lots of penetrative force. If you tried putting that bow on your torso without padding your chest, you’ll feel the string cutting into your body like dental floss cutting cheese.
Whatever the case, there’s a reason why archers didn’t do this (commonly). Try Shadiversity’s nail hook idea instead.
@@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight You'd have to have a pretty big torso to stretch out your bow to a worrying degree. That, or a pretty small bow, in which case it can easily be holstered.
And dental floss cutting cheese...? What kind of string is that, piano wire? If it cuts through you and clothing with ease, how do you draw it without cutting off your fingertips?
You need a fairly heavy duty string for it to survive >=100#, at least historically since you mention warbows.
Why would I try Shad's convoluted ideas with no real world experience? Seems you need some to... get a bow, and try it out yourself, as what you've been talking about is a heck of a fever dream.
How about a video on whether or not it's a good idea to hold a bow sideways for stealth?
Maybe they could wear the spear like japanese sashimono but then, that still doesn't explain the quick draw from player's weapon slots...
Polearms are still way too big for that, shashimono are like ~1m spear are at least 2m
You can draw a spear quickly: th-cam.com/video/zsRd7CYYWIo/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgxZ9DglOX4Ib4PYpSd4AaABAg.9PIt15pCY6Z9PJP-iW6DXz
Hello, just want to point out that a viking shield with a boss can be worn on back/by side with use of additional belt :) (a removable strap :) )
Three things in Total War that don't work in real life:
1. Shooting arrows towards the sky to hit foes behind houses and walls
2. Micro managing lots of troops far away without radios
For polearms and bows Shad has invented the nail catch and proven that he can put a bow with a nail catch as fast as shown in some video games away as well as get it very fast. He also tried to sling a spear on his back and it worked reasonable well.
One can easily come up with ideas for attaching a round shield somewhere. Thats ok with adventuring, I guess.
Metatron has made a video where he puts on his plate armour by himself and even managed to put on arm armour, not as properly as someone else would, but still better than nothing.
Especially in fantasy I have less issues with such things.